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Four Eighth Circuit Judges Argue That Felons Don't Categorically Lose Second Amendment Rights
The opinion is today's dissent from denial of rehearing en banc in U.S. v. Jackson (8th Cir.), written by Judge David Stras, joined by Judges Ralph Erickson, Steven Grasz, and Jonathan Kobes:
By cutting off as-applied challenges to the federal felon-in-possession statute, Jackson and Cunningham [two recent Eighth Circuit panel opinions] give "second-class" treatment to the Second Amendment. Even worse, they create a group of second-class citizens: felons who, for the rest of their lives, cannot touch a firearm, no matter the crime they committed or how long ago it happened. I dissent from the decision to deny rehearing en banc.
There's a lot of historical analysis in the opinion, but here's a short excerpt:
[The Jackson panel opinion] identified a few examples from a now-vacated Third Circuit decision and concluded that felons seem enough like Native Americans, slaves, Catholics, and Loyalists for Congress to disarm them too. It never really tells us why, perhaps because it thought it was the defendant's job to connect the dots….
[The panel opinion] makes no effort to draw the necessary connections between colonial-era laws and the felon-in-possession statute. Why were these particular groups targeted? What, if anything, does their disarmament have to do with felons? What lessons can we draw from the history? It is not as simple as saying some groups lost their arms, so felons should lose them too. After all, it goes without saying that we would not allow Congress to indiscriminately strip Catholics and Native Americans, two groups targeted by colonial-era disarmament laws, of their guns today…. [T]he decades surrounding the ratification of the Second Amendment showed a steady and consistent practice. People considered dangerous lost their arms. But being a criminal had little to do with it….
Jackson suggests that "citizens who are not 'law-abiding'" permanently lose their right to keep and bear arms, "whether or not they ha[ve] demonstrated a propensity for violence." The virtue theory views bearing arms as a "civic right" for only the virtuous. Felons, being felons, do not fall into that category, so they lose the right.
The problem is that nothing in the Second Amendment's text supports such a restrictive interpretation. The right to bear arms belongs to "the people"—the virtuous, the non-virtuous, and everyone in between…. The virtue theory also suffers from an even more glaring flaw. If felon disarmament is so obviously constitutional, then why were there "no [Founding-era] laws … denying the right [to keep and bear arms] to people convicted of crimes"? After all, Bruen tells us to find a "historical analogue" and the most obvious one—disarming felons—did not exist in the colonies or early American states.
Jackson tries to explain why: the standard penalty for felonies was death, and dead men don't need guns. There are several flaws with this explanation, the first being that it rests on a faulty assumption. Not all felonies were punishable by death, particularly the non-dangerous ones. Even many first-time violent offenders escaped the death penalty through the "benefit of clergy," including the famous case of two British regulars who were convicted of manslaughter for their role in the Boston Massacre. Jackson's greater-includes-the-lesser argument cannot be right if the greater—the widespread use of death as the punishment for a felony—was itself a fiction.
The second problem is that the argument only works if the greater and the lesser were both punishments for committing a crime. It turns out, however, that disarmament was never one. Death, peace bonds, whippings, hard labor, and prison time were among the punishments available, but conspicuously missing was any dispossession of firearms, much less a lifetime ban on owning them….
Jackson is also wrong to think that Heller completely immunized felon-in-possession laws. To be sure, it did not "cast doubt" on their "presumptive[] lawful[ness]." But Heller stopped short of saying they are always constitutional, no matter the felon. After all, a measure can be presumptively constitutional and still have constitutionally problematic applications. As-applied challenges exist for exactly this reason….
Perhaps the driving force behind Jackson is prudence and practicality, not text or history. The court is worried about what "felony-by-felony" litigation will look like and whether the new post-Bruen world will be judicially manageable. But the biggest questions all have simple answers. What is the standard? Dangerousness. [The opinion discusses the justifications for that standard earlier. -EV] When will it happen? When a defendant raises an as-applied challenge. What will it look like? The parties will present evidence and make arguments about whether the defendant is dangerous. The truth is that it will look almost the same as other determinations we ask district courts to make every day.
It is not as if assessing dangerousness is foreign. District courts considering whether to release a defendant before trial must consider whether it would "endanger the safety of any other person or the community." And then at sentencing, dangerousness comes up at least twice. The first is when balancing the statutory sentencing factors, including the need "to protect the public." The second is even a closer match: determining whether a defendant must "refrain from possessing a firearm" while on probation or supervised release. It is not clear why making one more determination along those same lines, perhaps even on the same facts, would be so difficult….
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As someone who was an occasional drug user in the 70's and 80's which was a felony, I wonder if I'm any less dangerous now because I wasn't caught and convicted than I'd be if my many felonies were discovered and punished. At least if I'd have been caught for my felonies I'd have had a decent chance to have been rehabilitated.
But alas, I've got no criminal record and walk armed, legally, among the innocent.
I take your point, and don’t necessarily disagree. But there is some logic in thinking that if you had been convicted of a felony, then your life would be harder and, as a result, you’d be more likely to engage in violent behavior to cope with that hardship.
About as much logic as then concluding that such people should not be charged with a crime to avoid making their life harder.
In my opinion, that is an argument for minimizing post incarceration hardships, not permanent restrictions on any rights.
I mean, I certainly wouldn’t lose any sleep over you not being able to own guns…
Is this just a personal thing, or are you also indifferent to other deprivations of Constitutional rights?
Maybe I've just drunk the legal Kool-Aid, but if I were the last lawyer on Earth, I would defend Donald Trump to the best of my ability.
Nearly the same argument could be made for preventing felons from voting. In Florida, after a citizen-led referendum on this very issue that restored the rights of felons to vote, the state government passed a law saying that felons could vote after they paid off all related fines and restitution...and then conveniently made it nearly impossible to identify what was owed and to whom.
If states can deny the right to vote using this method, why not the right to bear arms too?
...or the right to free speech or to worship if one chooses to do so or not to have the right against self incrimination or to be denied a speedy jury trial.....
Have any of those been denied to felons (with court approval)?
I was going to make the same point, but you beat me to it.
The basic problem with this dissent doesn't really grapple with is that "felon" has history and tradition on its side as a relevant category for disabling someone's legal rights. Now, concededly, not always. E.g., there's no tradition of taking away a felon's First Amendment rights, at least outside prison. But felons have historically been denied the franchise, been stripped of citizenship or lawful immigration status and deported, been subject to restrictions on their freedom in the form of post-release probation, been kept off juries, been required to register their address with the state, etc.
Maybe this was all unconstitutional, but the basic point is clear-- "felon" is a status that really matters. And in a formalistic "text history and tradition" analysis that SCOTUS claims to be engaging in, that historic nature of the status is going to carry a lot of weight.
Personally, my view is they should just adjudicate dangerousness. E.g., I am much more concerned about some hothead who was just proven to have engaged in domestic violence having a gun than I am about someone who paid their debt to society and wants reinstatement of his gun rights. But if we are doing text, history, and tradition, well, being a felon matters.
"But felons have historically been denied the franchise, been stripped of citizenship or lawful immigration status and deported, been subject to restrictions on their freedom in the form of post-release probation, been kept off juries, been required to register their address with the state, etc."
All this is true, but it does raise the issue of "felony inflation"; You can't get away from the fact that "felonies" were once only very serious crimes, almost always thought to be malum in se, inherently wrongful acts.
Today, a huge range of acts that once would have been just misdemeanors, or even no crime at all, are "felonies", and the once central notion of malum in se, as opposed to malum prohibitum, has been abandoned.
It really is questionable whether the fact that we're using the same word for capitol murder in the 1700s, and picking up a fallen eagle feather today, doesn't mean that the word has lost its former meaning, and thus implications.
"Personally, my view is they should just adjudicate dangerousness."
I think they should adjudicate dangerousness, certainly, but not "just", because one simply shouldn't lose civil liberties unless one is convicted of a crime. Upon conviction, that is the point where adjudicating dangerousness is appropriate. Not before, or the notion of inalienable rights loses its meaning.
I would strongly recommend the gun rights movement drop the “eagle feather” talking point. It’s just a so obviously cherry picked example, like the privacy advocates who always talk about the video rental record statute (“your video rental records are more private than…”).
Look, there’s a reasonable point that there are a lot more felonies, but I think the key point is that there are a lot of felonies in areas that really don’t have anything to do with dangerousness around a gun. I.e., I have a very low opinion of financial fraudsters, and think they should get serious prison time, but I don’t particularly see the reason why an embezzler or securities fraud convict should be disarmed.
The reason for making it a blanket rule is that no one can argue they were singled out or discriminated against if *all* felons lose their gun rights...
The amount of extra litigation that would ensue if it was a case-by-case basis is not helpful....
Also, any criminal can be dangerous, regardless of the original crime...
The specific crime of financial fraud may not involve violence, but people have committed murder to cover it up - or to extract revenge against those who helped put them away for it...
Not clear felony inflation is such a thing. Consider things like the Black Laws. Simple theft, poaching, many other things that today are lesser crimes, even misdemeanors, were not just felonies but punishable by death back then. Sodomy.
Just not true that the only things that were felonies back then were things we today would consider very serious.
The history of ‘felon’ is as follows: In the really bad-old-days (English ‘Bloody Code’) all felonies were capital crimes, or subject to outlawry (placement ‘outside the protection of the law’, eg the loss of *all* civil and human rights).
The US restrained this significantly under the Constitution, but did not entirely eliminate the loss of rights with a conviction.
The 14th Amendment specifically says that ‘no person may be deprived of their rights without due-process of law’ – which implies the inverse: that if you have been convicted thru due process your rights may be stripped.
Historically in the US, we have taken your right to vote (although states are changing their mind about this, it is still Federally constitutional)… And we have – since 1968 – taken your right to bear arms.
Also felons on probation/parole lose their 4th amendment rights until the terms of that supervision are successfully completed.
The fact that we leave some other rights in place – 1st Ammendment – doesn’t invalidate the use of due process to take other rights…. Nor does it really require that we always have to let felons keep those rights in the future (A technical point – there is no interest in reviving ‘outlawry’ in the modern era)….
"In Florida, after a citizen-led referendum on this very issue that restored the rights of felons to vote, the state government passed a law saying that felons could vote after they paid off all related fines and restitution"
I'd suggest that you look up the ballot proposal's language, and what it's proponents were saying about it before it passed. It actually DID require that all fines and Court costs be paid first.
After it passed, of course, they changed their tune on that issue.
Now, the horrible lack of transparency about how much is owed? THAT is a fair complaint.
Democrats changed their tune not because they care about the right to vote or any civil duty. It was purely about getting black felons to vote for Democrats.
(From wikipedia)
I can see that a fine might be part of a sentence, but court costs seem a stretch; a sentence should be to punish someone for their crime. In any case, whatever the sentence is should be told to anyone convicted at the time they are, you know, sentenced. Creating fear, uncertainty and doubt through the lack of transparency is just another form of voter suppression.
The complete sentence *is* told to them (including the costs and such) at the time of conviction.
It's not a surprise. They know what they owe.
The issue here is that a large number of convicts never pay up & thus never complete said sentence. The state doesn't care to actually take action to collect, but they do apparently care enough to keep voting rights restricted until it's paid.
So where does the lack of transparency originate?
I was following the Proposal 4 fight, because I actually DO think felons should be restored their rights, ALL of them, at the end of their sentence. The group pushing it was quite explicit that "all terms of their sentence" included court costs, restitution, and fines.
Then they changed their tune as soon as it passed. It was all rather cynical.
Because there is no general right to vote. There is only a right to not have your right to vote infringed because of race, sex, age, and failure to pay a poll tax.
This is correct and something that’s often misunderstood.
Also, section 2 of the 14th Amendment allows disenfranchising criminals. (Of course, they couldn’t only disenfranchise black criminals, or male criminals, etc.)
Correct. The 14th Amendment explicitly allows disenfranchising felons, just like the 13th explicitly allows free forced labor for convicts.
the state government passed a law saying that felons could vote after they paid off all related fines and restitution…and then conveniently made it nearly impossible to identify what was owed and to whom.
Can you provide more details to this? That the state would make it “nearly impossible to identify” a fine it itself was levying seems paradoxical.
Now you get it.
I wouldn't say they "then conveniently made it nearly impossible to identify what was owed and to whom"; That would suggest that it had previously been easy, and they changed it to be worse.
They merely didn't do anything to clean up an already messy system.
Mind, a criminal who actually paid attention and took notes at their sentencing would have been OK. It's just that at the other end of your time in jail, they had no central clearing house where you could find all your obligations.
Does this analysis also apply to the First Amendment right of the people peaceably to assemble? Because felony convictions definitely vitiate that right...
The argument is too simplistic, in my view.
Running around shooting people illegally certainly doesn’t sound like a good result of a well-regulated militia. Regulators of militias should do something about them.
You can put people in slavery as a punishment for crime. The 13th Amendment says so. It’s rediculous to claim that not owning a gun is worse then being a slave.
Moreover, non-citizens don’t have a right to keep or bear arms. It’s not even a right of persons, only the people, for crying out loud. Are non-citizens being tortured?
Everywhere else that the phrase 'the people' appears in the Constitution refers to an individual right...
That said, the 14th Amendment clearly says that you may be stripped of your rights through due-process (Eg, criminal conviction) - which is what allows us to take felon's voting and gun rights....
Not so. United States v. Umberto-Urquidez held that the term “the people” is limited to members of the US political body, and as a result, aliens don’t have the same 4th Amendment rights that citizens do. It’s an individual right, but not every individual has it. Same with the 2nd Amendment. Because they are not members of “the people,” most aliens who aren’t legal permanent residents don’t have a right to keep or bear arms. Federal law makes it illegal for them to possess firearms, and the law against it is perfectly constitutional.
This is certainly a dissent worth retaining for future use!
Bruen invalidated a "may issue" scheme in NY that left too much discretion up to issuing agents and didn't look to history and tradition. I'm having a hard time seeing how this dissent's logic doesn't send us right back there but with the judicial branch and not the executive?
Isn't "judging dangerousness" basically the old standard but with a necessary but not sufficient check-mark next to "Committed a felony"? The dissent tries to square this by saying that "dangerousness" was the historical standard around the time of the founding and so is part of the text, history and tradition of the 2A. But isn't that basically saying that a balancing test is inherent in the 2A?
"I’m having a hard time seeing how this dissent’s logic doesn’t send us right back there but with the judicial branch and not the executive?"
Pretty simple, actually: Under NY's scheme, the executive opined on the dangerousness of people who had no criminal convictions.
Under the dissent, the question of dangerousness doesn't even arise until you're convicted of a felony.
That's a darned big difference.
And when NYS reclassifies a bunch of crimes as felonies...?
That distinction may have been more relevant around the founding, but I believe the breadth of felony crimes has grown massively.
For a crime to be a felony for federal gun-rights-deprivation purposes, it must be punishable by a year or more incarceration.
That way, if Texas calls something a 'misdemeanor' but assigns it a 2yr prison term, federally it's a felony. Similarly, if New York assigns something a $50 fine and no prison but calls it a felony, federally it's not one and your gun rights are intact.
The assignment of 1yr+ potential prison terms to minor crimes (Say, jaywalking or littering) as a hypothetical means of screwing over gun owners would violate the 8th Ammendment & never actually fly…
Sure -- but there's obviously going to be closer calls that NYS may push toward the felony line to expand the % of criminals that lose gun rights. First degree misdemeanor assault becomes Nth Degree Felony assault.
My main point is that as long as you agree that committing a felony is a "check the box" requirement to move to a dangerousness analysis and that there are enough felonies to capture some criminals in the "grey area" of dangerousness, then we are just back to a discretion standard for reviewing gun rights. It's just the courts doing it instead of the state agency.
But it's still requiring you to actually be convicted in a criminal trial, with full due process. Vs NY's preferred approach of, "Because we said so."
For sure. It's certainly an extra step at least that narrows down the universe of people this could apply to. But you have to wonder where else in new 2A jurisprudence this same type of analysis might pop up. If someone is mentally incapacitated, do we move to a dangerousness standard?
Just funny to me that originalists couldn't stick to their guns for even a full year.
The historical standard is that justly-convicted felons get stripped of their rights unless pardoned.
It remains constitutional - at least at the federal level - for states to strip them of their voting rights, for example. If that is OK, disarmament is too...
Want to keep your rights? Obey the law.
Four Trump Judges Can't Persuade Right-Wing Circuit,
But Fanboy at Gun Nut Blog Applauds Nonetheless
The Constitution says that no one can be deprived of their rights *except by due process of law*.
There is a long tradition of stripping felons of their rights as part of their punishment.
If we can take your right to vote - and we can - we can take your right to bear arms.
Disenfranchising certain felons would seem to violate the 8th Amendment:
https://www.wlbt.com/2023/08/06/us-fifth-circuit-court-rules-overturn-mississippi-voter-ban-law/
Link to decision:
https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/19/19-60662-CV0.pdf
It’s a bad decision. It defies any ordinary plausible meaning of the term “cruel.” It is not being cruel to children, nor to non-citizens, nor to non-residents for that matter, to prevent them from voting.
As a gun nut, it would be really nice if we could lock in some meaningful second amendment wins (e.g. on magazine limits, “assault weapon” bans, restrictive permitting, or license reciprocity) before these criminals ruin it for the rest of us.
While I applaud the judges for taking the time to dissent, it is disappointing that they missed the boat on the egregious misinterpretation of the "presumptively lawful regulatory measures" mentioned in Heller.
The dissent opens the door, but never steps inside to further examine and refute the widely-accepted flaw. In fact, they were fooled themselves.
From the dissent:
[Jackson is also wrong to think that Heller completely immunized felon-in-possession laws. To be sure, it did not "cast doubt" on their "presumptive[] lawful[ness]." But Heller stopped short of saying they are always constitutional, no matter the felon. After all, a measure can be presumptively constitutional and still have constitutionally problematic applications. As-applied challenges exist for exactly this reason….]
This position incorrectly equates Heller's mere observation of the status quo ("presumptively lawful") as an authoritative statement on the "lawfulness" of those other "regulatory measures." Nothing could be further from the truth!
Heller was about one single issue, whether a citizen could possess an operational firearm in their own home to be used for lawful purposes, such as self-defense. Heller's answer was an emphatic, "YES!" going on to state that "the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia..."
None of those other "regulatory measures" were in scope of Heller, so Heller did not rule one way OR the other on ANY of them. Scalia (rumored to yield to pressure from the fence-sitting Kennedy) added this FOOTNOTE to prevent the gun-rights side from using Heller to invalidate laws that were not considered by Heller. And as is so often the case, the other side quickly jumped on that text, taking advantage of the fact that few folks in the media or outside the world of legal scholarship fully understand things like "scope," to literally CHANGE the common understanding of Heller from its intended:
"These other laws are legal - for now - because we aren't considering them."
to:
"These other laws are LEGAL because we did not say they are ILLEGAL in this ruling, today!"
The irony of the situation is that the intent of Heller, to push further evaluation of those "presumptively lawful" measures to later litigation, has indeed happened. Bruen IS the intended outcome from Heller, as it did FINALLY examine some of those other laws, and as we all know, found them to be ILLEGAL after all.
That is part of why the gun-haters are so apoplectic about Bruen: They have been led to believe by the misinterpretation of Heller that Bruen was a massive paradigm shift, when in fact, it really was not.
This misinterpretation of Heller has been a sham since the day it was published, and it really needs to stop.
Well said. You should anticipate TP your well laid out prose to find its way into some future state court 2A challenges. The post-Heller state court judges in gun hating states like New York and New Jersey love to justify their way around Heller/Bruen by pointing to that Scalia dicta.
"find its way into some future state court 2A challenges"
Thanks for the compliment, I only wish this were the case. I've made the point here and there quite a few times over the years, nobody ever seems to pick up on it. The thought is not original to me, I read it somewhere very soon after Heller was handed down, but I've never been able to find that article.
Even Cam Edwards has been duped! See second-to-last paragraph here:
https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2023/09/02/after-years-of-labor-nebraskans-can-now-bear-arms-without-a-license-n74454