The Volokh Conspiracy
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Can Florida Homeowners Shoot Looters Who Break Into Their Houses (as Ron DeSantis Mentioned) or Businesses?
"I've seen signs in different people's yards in the past after these disasters, ... 'You loot, we shoot.' ... You never know what's behind that door."
DESANTIS ISSUES WARNING TO POTENTIAL LOOTERS
"This part of Florida, you've got a lot of advocates of the Second Amendment…You loot, we shoot. You never know what's behind that door." pic.twitter.com/U5xmVrVTdu
— DeSantis War Room ???? (@DeSantisWarRoom) August 30, 2023
The "we" here refers to homeowners; here's a longer text snippet, from Fox News:
I'd also just remind potential looters that you never know what you're walking into. People have a right to defend their property. This part of Florida, you got a lot of advocates and proponents of the Second Amendment. I've seen signs in different people's yards in the past after these disasters, and I would say it's probably here, "You loot, we shoot."
You never know what's behind that door if you go break into somebody's house.
Are homeowners allowed to shoot people who break into their homes, apparently to loot? Yes, under Florida law, and the law of many (though not all) states. The relevant Florida statute provides,
A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.
And "forcible felony" is defined as (emphasis added)
treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
Burglary in turn includes "Entering a dwelling, a structure, or a conveyance with the intent to commit an offense therein, unless the premises are at the time open to the public or the defendant is licensed or invited to enter …." If you reasonably believe that someone is entering your Florida home to commit an offense (such as theft), you are legally allowed to use deadly force to prevent that. Indeed, you are legally allowed to do the same with regard to your Florida business (when it's not open to the general public), since burglary isn't limited to residential burglary.
The matter varies from state to state. In all, you can generally use deadly force when you reasonably believe it necessary to prevent death, serious bodily injury, or rape (and generally kidnapping) but states differ as to robbery, burglary, and the like. (I have more on that below.) But in Florida you can indeed use deadly force to stop burglary.
Note that this doesn't have to do with the "stand your ground" vs. "duty to retreat" debate. The "duty to retreat" rule, which is the law in about 1/4 of the states, is that, when you can avoid the threat with complete safety by leaving the place you lawfully are (outside your own home), you aren't allowed to stay and use deadly force to combat the threat. The "stand your ground" rule, which is the law in about 3/4 of the states, is that in such situations you may stay and use deadly force. Here, the defenders are generally in their homes, and they can't avoid the threat (here, of burglary) by leaving, so both rules would yield the same result. The question I'm discussing here is what kind of threat justifies deadly force (threat of burglary suffices in Florida but not in some other states), a separate question from the question of what you may do if you can avoid that threat with perfect safety.
[* * *]
Here's a summary of the bigger picture question of when people are allowed to use deadly force to defend property, throughout the U.S., borrowed from a 2020 post of mine on the subject:
I touched on this briefly in my looting/shooting post, but I thought I'd elaborate a bit more (especially since the commenters seemed to be interested in both the legal and moral aspects of this question). Note that this is, as usual, not specific legal advice, but just a general layout of how various American courts deal with the matter; many of the rules, as you'll see, vary sharply among states, and often turn on specific factual details. (I say "you" below for clarity and convenience—I hope none of you has to actually do any of this.)
[1.] In all states, you can use deadly force to defend yourself against death, serious bodily injury (which can include broken bones and perhaps even lost teeth), rape, or kidnapping, so long as (a) your fear is reasonable and (b) the danger is imminent (requirements that also apply to the doctrines I discuss below). For instance, you should be able to use deadly force against someone who is trying to burn down your home, since that threatens you with death or serious bodily harm. You should be able to do the same against someone who is trying to burn down your business, though with possible limitations involving the duty to retreat in the minority of states that recognize such a duty.
But in nearly all states, you can't generally use deadly force merely to defend your property. (Texas appears to be an exception, allowing use of deadly force when there's no other way to protect or recapture property even in situations involving simple theft or criminal mischief, though only at night, Tex. Penal Code § 9.42; see, e.g., McFadden v. State (Tex. Ct. App. 2018).) That's where we get the conventional formulation that you can't use deadly force just to defend property.
[2.] This conventional formulation, though, omits an important limitation: In basically all states, you can use nondeadly force to defend your property—and if the thief or vandal responds by threatening you with death or great bodily harm, you can then protect yourself with deadly force. So in practice, you can use deadly force to protect property after all, if you're willing to use nondeadly force first and expose yourself to increased risk.
And in some states, you don't even need to expose yourself to such increased risk, if you reasonably fear at the outset that nondeadly protection of property would be too dangerous. In those states, to quote the Model Penal Code formulation (which some have adopted), deadly force can be used if
the person against whom the force is used is attempting to commit or consummate arson, burglary, robbery or other felonious theft or property destruction and either:
[a] has employed or threatened deadly force against or in the presence of the actor; or
[b] the use of [nondeadly] force to prevent the commission or the consummation of the crime would expose the actor or another in his presence to substantial danger of serious bodily injury.
Note the requirement, in at least this version, of felonious theft or property destruction.
[3.] And that's just for garden-variety theft and property damage. When the theft or vandalism is aggravated in certain ways, many states allow for still more deadly force.
[A.] In about half the states you can use deadly force against robbery, which generally includes any theft from the person that uses modest force or a threat: "Even a purse snatching can constitute a robbery if the victim simply resists the effort to wrest the purse away." Some robbery of course does also create a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury, but in these states such a fear is not required.
[B.] In some states, there is a rebuttable presumption that you reasonably fear death or great bodily harm—and may thus use deadly force—if the target is (to quote the Iowa statute),
Unlawfully entering by force or stealth the dwelling, place of business or employment, or occupied vehicle of the person using force, or has unlawfully entered by force or stealth and remains within the dwelling, place of business or employment, or occupied vehicle of the person using force.
This is just a presumption, but to rebut it the prosecution would generally have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you didn't actually reasonably fear death or great bodily harm in such a situation.
[C.] And in some states, it is categorically permissible to use deadly force against burglary—often defined as entering a building illegally with the intent to commit a crime (including theft) there—or against arson, even when you have no reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury to yourself. For instance, here is one of the New York criminal jury instructions, which generally summarize several relevant New York statutes (brackets in the following text are in the original, and indicate text that is included if the facts of the case fit it):
Under our law, a person in possession or control of [or licensed or privileged to be in] a dwelling [or an occupied building], who reasonably believes that another individual is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling [or occupied building], may use deadly physical force upon that individual when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary….
A person commits BURGLARY when that person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a dwelling [or occupied building] with the intent to commit a crime therein.
Note that building includes "any structure, vehicle or watercraft used for overnight lodging of persons, or used by persons for carrying on business therein," and there's also a similar instruction as to deadly force to prevent arson, which is not limited to burning of occupied buildings.
All this, of course, is just the tip of the iceberg: There are various limitation to these rules (e.g., if you're actually the initial aggressor, or if you know there's a good-faith dispute about the ownership of the property), and I'll note again that the rules and their interpretation can vary sharply from state to state. But this is the big picture, which I think helps show the complexity of this area of the law.
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Use of Deadly Force laws were written when police responded to theft, robbery, burglary, assault, tresspass, etc. The ‘Social Contract’ needs revision…
So now all burglars and robbers who read this post are on notice.
Anyone breaking into my house is out to kill me, not rob me.
Yeah, it's very easy to say it's allowed for attempts to kill but not rob, but when someone is trying to break into your house, are you supposed to assume they just want your stuff and will leave you alone? I would presume anyone breaking into a house is planning on injuring or killing any people they encounter, absent strong evidence to the contrary.
Guys, Escape from LA was meant to be a dystopia, not an example for people to follow.
You prefer the SF example?
You can roll into a store or house with a trashbag, and carry away up to $900 without criminal charges and no one can stop you?
Without FELONY charges, but no one will try to stop the crime or prosecute it anyway.
Genuinely curious: what do you think someone should do if a looter breaks into their house while they’re home? And what do you think should happen to a homeowner who uses deadly force in such a situation?
You aren't going to receive a response, because the post you are replying to was almost certainly not written in good faith.
Is there a time for a quick arming-up montage, a la Commando?
Not needed. A simple, easily accessible biometric safe with a Kimber Ultra Carry in .45, or Glock 19 if your taste runs that way. Add a Streamlight and that should be more than adequate to the task, if you regularly spend time at the range.
The link under the words “many (though not all) states” appears to be broken. Which is a shame since I would be fascinated to read about American jurisdictions that don’t allow deadly force to respond to a residential burglary.
Sorry, fixed link; it's to Paul Robinson et al.'s excellent The American Criminal Code: General Defenses.
You can shoot someone to prevent the imminent commission of *treason*? Wow, some people are lucky the Capitol riots did not occur in Florida.
Tell that to Ashli Babbitt....
Luckily Ashli Babbitt - a veteran military person trained in lethal combat & also batshit crazy - did not get her chance at the fleeing congressmen 10ft away. It was a good day for Rittenhouse Doctrine stand your ground. Ain't you happy that police officer invoked his second amendment right, Armchair?
What happened to Miss Babbitt was a tragedy. I do not applaud her death. I would hope you would not do the same.
Her death was a tragedy and I don’t applaud it either. That said, when a mob shows up at the Capitol it’s entirely predictable that someone may get killed. Maybe joining a mob isn’t such a great idea.
>That said, when a mob shows up it’s entirely predictable that someone may get killed. Maybe joining a mob isn’t such a great idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You would think so but the BLM rioters killed far people (than arguably maybe/maybe not just one person) and destroyed far more property including government property and they got off and in some cases were even rewarded for their rioting..
Although it’s hard to see how it’s possibly, you appear to have missed Krychek-2’s point.
Amos 'whatabout' Arch. But ..BLM!
To be precise, her death was sad, but not a tragedy.
And it can be laid squarely at the feet of Trump.
" That said, when a mob shows up at the Capitol it’s entirely predictable that someone may get killed. "
That's not at all predictable, honestly. There have been a number of violent protests/mobs/what have you all round DC in recent years. This is the one where someone was shot and killed with lethal firearms.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/doj-reaches-settlement-2020-cases-involving-lafayette-square-protester-rcna24325
Does that apply equally to rock throwing protesters at Kent State?
"a veteran military person trained in lethal combat"
She was in the Air Force. Not many trained combat killers in that branch. The person who murdered her should be in jail. Instead he got promoted.
But at least we now have a new set of rules for when "potentially armed" and "probably bat shit crazy" Antifa or other leftist goons try to break into any government building.
Are you referring to most of the Democrat party?
Free hint: Democrat is a noun. The adjective is Democratic. When you say "Democrat Party," you are saying, "I am poorly educated and don't know what I'm talking about."
The Republican Party consists of Republicans and the Democrat Party consists of Democrats.
The government supposedly belongs to the people and is not private property.
Aren't you showing yourself to be a hypocrite, apparently being against lethal force for robbers but gleeful that the Jan 6th picnikers were killed?
Is this a new use of the term "apparently"?
And the plural?
"what you may do if you can avoid that threat with perfect safety."
In my opinion that is an absurd legal standard. You can't sit in your living room doing nothing but breathing in perfect safety.
In a slightly different context, I've read stories of people squatting in peoples empty homes, then brandishing some forged lease and the police telling the homeowners they have to go through civil process to reclaim their homes.
What would happen if the homeowners just go in shooting? Do not call the police, just breach, use your key if possible, gun out, ready to shoot, and shoot if there's any resistance.
I would think it would have to be your primary or secondary home, and not a rental, but I think in most states you'd be in the clear.
Squatting has to be one of the most odious non-violent things I can think of. Truly nothing of value would be lost if it were responded to as you suggested.
People who say, "the burglar was just going to steal your TV and computers and that's not worth dying over", do not take into consideration that the homeowner doesn't know that. It's not as if the criminal announce in advance exactly what he plans to do and whether or not he plans to kill you while robbing your home. You have no way of knowing. So, the default position for me is that if the thug is willing to break into my home then they are also willing to kill me for my property.
My television or other property is not worth YOU dying for. Don't risk it.
Exactly. I think home invasion is one of the scariest crimes. I would feel justified in shooting long before learning what the actual intention of the invaders was.
I don't own a gun because I live in a safe place. But if I lived in a place considered high risk for home invasion, yes I would have deadly weapons at the ready.
Wrong thread.
I'm fine with laws promoting armed cowardice and wild-west-style vigilantism, so long as no one tries to impose them as standards in in every state. Some states feature populations with better character. They need freedom to impose higher standards on gun wielding residents and visitors who long to kill and call it public virtue.
Make it explicit that any state remains free to try for murder or manslaughter any person who gratuitously shoots an unarmed property criminal. Put would-be shooters on notice that after they kill, they will have to prove in court actual deadly violence initiated by someone with capability to deliver it without a firearm, or face a presumption of criminal homicide. No more justifications by subjective standards of fearfulness, without powerful evidence, proved in court, of a genuinely fearsome attack underway.
Then let cowardly gun wielders leave their guns in their own states if they want to visit civilization elsewhere. Give every state a free choice between a culture of cowardice and vigilantism, or a culture of law and order, and it will not ruin the nation to let the states sort themselves out according to the relative virtues of their various populations. In any such system, I expect the beneficial political agency of federalism would over time encourage better standards among the laggard states.
Note that I am not arguing against use of deadly force against adversaries who initiate criminal activity while armed, or while organized into criminal mobs even without firearms. On the contrary, I want laws to make it evident to would-be gun carriers that the choice to carry a gun in public always comes with its own extra increment of danger to the person carrying the gun, who will have to reckon that in the balance against any extra increment of safety he hopes to enjoy.
I want no lopsided laws which presume some shooters are law abiding, while their deceased and unarmed victims were fair targets. I want no standard to determine which is which by no more than a subjective utterance from a living shooter advantaged in court by the precaution he took to shoot dead an unarmed potential witness against him.
I'm glad you're just an Internet crank and don't have any ability to enact your notions into law.
Nieporent, show the cranky part.
Also, what is it you like about encouraging gun wielders to say they were afraid of some unarmed black person, so they shot him dead out of completely justified fear for their life?
This is why I'm for MANDATORY firearm training for weapons owners.
How can law-abiding citizens abide the law when they don't know it.
Nobody "knows" the law. You're saying the quiet part outloud.
On a completely different topic (qualified immunity and the evil that it is), how can you hold the general public accountable when cops get a free pass?
"Make it explicit that any state remains free to try for murder or manslaughter any person who gratuitously shoots an unarmed property criminal."
Look who does not respect property rights.
At all.
Property rights decreed by 21st century vigilantes scare the crap out of me. They ought to scare you too.
"A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force . . . to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony."
Prof. Volokh focused a person protecting their own home.
How about a community watch group gets together during this storm and patrols the area (and are legally armed).
They see a person unknown to them enter a known neighbor's home through a window (let's say the window was broken during the storm).
Since the law doesn't say 'to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony at the owner's residence,' would the community patrollers be lawfully authorized to shoot the (potential) intruder?
Presumably they would need some basis to establish reasonable belief that the person was entering the property to commit a crime inside (which is part of Florida's definition of burglary).
This might not be a hard thing to show; if the person was seeking help or shelter, they could presumably approach the neighborhood patrol to request assistance or contact with the authorities.
Look, if you can't just shoot anyone you perceive as a threat, whether it's someone who breaks into your home, a person in drag, homeless people, or liberals, what's the point of all them guns?
Ah....arguments out of bad faith.
Pointing it out because it is not worthy of a retort.
Well, let's see, DeSantis throwing out this red meat for self-defenders to get roused up about it while at the same time all these people are terrible supposed threats to life, liberty and children. It's just standard right-wing button-pushing to tap into the rage and grievance.
Come into my house without my permission and you have taken a lot of risk into your own hands.
Saying "Hey, you probably shouldn't do that" is simple logic. FL ain't Chicago.
So, you wouldn't mind posting your address and I'll just come over and take everything you own. No big deal. It's just stuff.
Hey, I remember this argument! 'Oh you oppose the war in Afghanistan/Iraq? I suppose you'd be happy to let me punch you in the face!' You are such children.
or "Everyone who supports Abortion has already been born" Except for Nige-bot who was assembled by Slave labor in Chy-Na!
This is the tough-on-crime crowd who voted for... Trump. Though it's less about crime per se than just looking for when it's okay to kill people.
You know, if nobody illegally breaks into somebody's house, nobody is at risk.
You seem to putting the onus on the absolute wrong party.
One party has absolute control over a confrontation. The one who initiates it.
Actually, people, especially intoxicated people, are notably at risk of going to mistaken addresses, and then being shot dead by other people, especially intoxicated people. And the person who reaches for the gun is the person who initiates an armed confrontation, every time.
Can we talk about the Elephant in the room? We all know what the "Looters" look like, which is why you never hear about looting in Idaho or Vermont.
Frank
I'm new to the Trump era and it's still a shock to me to hear a governor say this in a time of crisis when he should be telling his constituents to all pull together.
the "Trump Era"?? only been 8 years since he went "Down the Escalator" And if Hilary Rodman was POTUS ("Shock"? how about "Suicidal Inducing Nightmare"??)
She'd still be in Orifice (her Husband would be/is (In Orifices)
Hey, Sorry, don't know where you live, but where I come from, you enter some ones "Crib" (Afro-Emurican for "Residence") uninvited, you're likely to get acute Lead Poisoning, if you get my drift.
And that's just everyday entering someones Crib/Residence, doing it during a natural disaster shows a level of despicable-nes (HT S. T. Cat) that just confirms it even more.
Frank "Shoot low, they're riding Shetland Ponies"
How far?
More than 20′ that’s going to be problematic but 6 or 8′ they’re still a threat. Try to hit them in the front, but if they’re that close you can just claim they turned as you pulled the trigger (that one almost always works for cops).
They could at least just let go and run away if the owner pulls back.
Or they could just not start purse snatching in the first place.
Why? Government holds you in a headlock while someone steals your purse?
Wasn't there a SCOTUS case recently (maybe not this last term) that examined whether purse snatching qualifies as a crime of violence? I can't remember exactly but I seem to recall an extended series of questions from the justices concerning purse snatching, and how it could be viewed as violent.
"Geez, I thought I was a pretty big defender of self defense but shooting purse snatchers who simply keep pulling on the purse when the owner pulls back seems a bit too far."
What made you think you were a “big defender” of self defense?
Maybe you weren’t?
Why? Because in a civilized society people understand that a human life is more valuable than a purse.
Only in barbaric hellholes like certain US states do people inflate themselves so full of their own shit that they think other people’s lives are garbage. They feel righteous snuffing their lives out in order to keep their grasp on a dollar. No respect for human life at all. Complete savages.
Look, you can classify a parking violation as a violent crime if you want. It involves a misuse of a dangerous weapon.
No technical classification can justify killing someone over something that almost never results in risk to ones life.
"Savages" is too kind.
These are (mostly) people who loudly profess themselves to be "pro-life."
And the consequence of allowing people to steal without consequences is that property theft comes endemic if there is no downside. Much of the country decided one ago that burglary, in particular, can devastate people’s lives, and determined that deadly force can sometimes be a legitimate response. And guess what? Those places tend to be much more peaceful and less violent.
So, no, the life of a drug addled thief is not always more valuable that te theft, by them, of someone’s hard earned belongings and meager wealth. What about the weeks, months, even years of hard work they put in to accumulate their, often meager, wealth? Are you going to reimburse them for the part of their life they spent earning it? Of course not. They have insurance, don’t they? Probably not.
Fixed that for you.
"Why? Because in a civilized society people understand that a human life is more valuable than a purse."
One could argue that it's the thief that values the purse above his own life.
You're right, "Certain US States" should stop killing unborn babies, is that what you meant?
Government holds you in a headlock while someone steals your purse, got it.
Whose life, and whose purse?
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/woman-killed-in-double-purse-snatching/
Anyone who uses illegal force against another for any reason has shown how much they value the sanctity of life. But there is a simple solution. If you don't want to be killed by your victim then don't attack people.
How often are you willing to have your home invaded by random criminals to test how frequently your life is endangered?
Women very often wear their purses over one shoulder and under the other. Purse snatching can then become a lethal crime because the victim can't just let go of the purse.
"No technical classification can justify killing someone over something that almost never results in risk to ones life."
Try reading that statement again and see if anything in your brain lights up. Perhaps something about the risk to ones life being "almost" never.
You are completely free to choose to be a victim and not protect yourself. Trying to force others to be victims is evil.
https://abc13.com/hit-and-run-mcdonalds-parking-lot-woman-killed-east-harris-county/11041173/
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-queens-purse-snatching-death-nypd-20230623-bdhszauulbc7pa5y7ou55lbcem-story.html
I would provide more links, but the commenting area probably still doesn't like that. Your denial of simple facts is exactly why I always mute you after a trial un-muting.
Do you even carry a purse, or are you just white-knighting thugs who rob people who aren't like you? What’s next, standing up for the alleged right of rapists to not be shot by their victims?
Well the Green Party consists of Greens, so it certainly seems consistent.
I think that is an oversimplification. If we stick with the purse scenario most likely the gun is in said purse. Stats bear out if you get your gun taken from you there is a good chance it will be used against you. At the very least there is a good chance it will be used against the next victim. I don't think anyone in that split second situation is thinking "I have to kill this person". They are thinking "I'm about to be shot, I have to try to stop them".
I think it's a close call, but in any conflict between a person and a criminal, the benefit of the doubt should be in favor of the person. I wouldn't personally shoot a purse snatcher, but if somebody does, the state shouldn't come down on them with any legal consequences.
So, “no” and “yes” respectively. Back on mute for you!
(The case of purse snatching in the face of resistance by the victim was (a) not a hypothetical and (b) is sufficient basis for use of deadly force in "about half the states". It's pretty clear why you are so quick to disregard the prerequisite violence in these robberies.)
Will never understand leftists' linking the murder of innocent unborns with the justifiable homicide of adult criminals. "How can you be pro-life AND pro-capital punishment? Waahh!" How? Easily.
Yes, because being pro-life is about controlling women.
Florida also has an Afro-Amurican Population 50 percent higher than New York's. Coincidence?
Frank
Nige-bot hopes to meet a Woman-bot one day.
And when did this become a value anyway? I can understand in the days before cameras and advanced crime scene investigation maybe pols were faced with flat out murders hiding behind claims like this.
The hypothetical is not shooting a scooting snatcher as they run away, but who is getting into a fight with you over it.
"Just let go of the purse. Oh, if you don't and shoot him, I will sue you and take my 1/3rd back to my home in my gated community. Now give up your purse!"
But the Prohibition Party certainly consists of Prohibitions. And don't forget the Free Soil Party.
Protecting the innocent and punishing the guilty is a consistent worldview.
Much more of one than the reverse.
Of course, decrying others for your imagined version of their views towards human life, while simultaneously calling them "savages" and even worse than that, is truly civilized behavior, right?
The speck of sin and it's blasting time folks who say they are 'pro life' are lying. And really insecure about something or other.
steal without consequences
Weird. I though this was about vigilante killings of purse snatchers, and here you are with an utterly different choice.
the life of a drug addled thief is not always more valuable that the theft by them, of someone’s hard earned belongings and meager wealth
Wrong. Sociopathically wrong.
No, not really.
And when did this become a value anyway?
Holy shit.
It's I-Ronic (Dontcha Think?) like how a 1/2 mob of KKK guys raped your Mammy while the other 1/2 was castrating (maybe he just wanted to "Transition") Everett Till, and then leaving him to die with his balls stuffed in his mouth,
Oh, not "Kind"? not "Gentle"? too fucking bad, like your incessant saying my mom fucked the Harlem Globetrotters, Jackson 5, Commodores (umm, well maybe),
How's that other shoe kicked up your faggot loose sphincter ass feel??
OK, back the "Kinder/Gentler" Frank, how bout those,
Umm, you're "Black" don't you all love the Lakers??
Frank
Why not?
Where does "vigilante" come in? How can a killing be "vigilante" if it is legal?
Oh. It's Sarcastr0. Never mind.