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Second Amendment Roundup: Looking for Historical Tradition in All the Wrong Places
The Government drops reference to the slave codes as a historical analogue in Rahimi.
"The Government … points to laws in several colonies and states that disarmed classes of people considered to be dangerous, specifically including … slaves," noted the Fifth Circuit in U.S. v. Rahimi. Applying the Supreme Court's test in N.Y. State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen, the court found the federal ban on gun possession by a person with a domestic violence restraining order (DVRO) to lack Founding-era precedent and hence violates the Second Amendment.
In its merits brief in the Supreme Court, the Government drops any mention of slavery like a hot potato. However, it cannot escape the racist taint of so many historical gun laws. It approvingly cites California's "Greaser Act" of 1855 which provided: "All persons who are commonly known as 'Greasers' or the issue of Spanish and Indian blood, … and who go armed and are not known to be peaceable and quiet persons, and who give no good account of themselves, may be disarmed by any lawful officer, and punished otherwise as provided in the foregoing section." That was 90 days at hard labor.
The Second Amendment recognizes the preexisting "right of the people to keep and bear arms," which laws like the above violated. The Government devotes several pages under the heading: "History confirms that Congress may disarm persons who are not law-abiding, responsible citizens." While Bruen made reference to "law-abiding, responsible citizens," it did not purport to substitute that term for "the people." As the Greaser Act illustrates, the Government places no limit on what laws are passed and thus who is "law-abiding."
Just consider the Government's historical precedents. Charles II disarmed Protestants under the Militia Act of 1662. While "that practice continued after the adoption of the English Bill of Rights," that was because the Bill only recognized that the subjects "which are Protestants may have arms for their defense." That allowed confiscation of the arms of Catholics without individualized determinations of dangerousness.
The Government also argues that persons who went armed in a manner to terrify the King's subjects, as provided by the Statute of Northampton, could have their armor seized and forfeited. But they were not prohibited from obtaining other arms.
During the Revolution, patriots seized the arms of loyalists and others who refused to take an oath of allegiance. They also seized their literature and their estates, and they attainted them without trial. But that was war, the struggle between life and death. The First and Second Amendments, and the prohibition on bills of attainder, prohibit that under normal conditions.
In the Gordon Riots of 1780, rioters had their arms confiscated and were arrested or shot. A debate ensued in the House of Lords about whether arms of law-abiding persons were seized, but officials represented that they were not. This incident doesn't support the ban on possession by individuals subject to DVROs.
The Dissent of the Minority in Pennsylvania's ratification convention of 1788 proposed that "no law shall be passed for disarming the people or any of them, unless for crimes committed, or real danger of public injury from individuals…." But today's ban does not require that a crime be committed. Even if a DVRO is issued ostensibly because of "real danger of public injury," the federal law overrides decisions of state judges who issue such orders, but in some cases do not deem it necessary to include a no-gun order. Anyway, Heller said it was "dubious" to rely on proposals like the one from Pennsylvania to interpret the Second Amendment.
The Government further cites Senator Henry Wilson who in 1866 defended Congress's "power to disarm ruffians or traitors, or men who are committing outrages against law or the rights of men." But that was in the context of actual violence against newly-freed slaves for which the perpetrators could be arrested and convicted. It is not a precedent as applied to a person who has committed no crime.
The Government does not argue that the public understanding in 1868 (when the 14th Amendment was ratified) overrides that in 1791 (when the 2nd amendment was ratified), leaving that task to Everytown, which has been filing such briefs in other cases. Mark Smith put that argument to rest in Attention Originalists. But the Government cannot resist citing scores of laws from the 1880s and 1890s about "tramps," intoxicated persons, and other irrelevant categories.
Try as it might, the Government comes up short in its attempt to find appropriate historical analogues. Under the rubric of "disarmament," it conflates the actual seizure of an arm from a person who has committed a crime with the current law's prohibition on the possession of any arm, including one that would be acquired in the future, without any criminal conviction. Then it falls back on means-ends scrutiny, but that was emphatically rejected by Bruen.
As expected, a boatload of amicus briefs have been filed by supporters of the Government's position. For humor, start with the brief of Carl Bogus and others with the argument heading "Heller and Bruen Were Wrongly Decided and Should Be Overruled."
The usual suspects always show up in these cases. When Bruen was decided, Saul Cornell shot back with his article "Cherry-picked history and ideology-driven outcomes: Bruen's originalist distortions." He now joins the Brief of Professors of History and Law instructing the Court on how to faithfully apply Bruen to resolve Rahimi.
A couple of briefs make the point that, even if the Court invalidates the federal ban, state judges should still be able to issue protective orders with particularized findings that a person is dangerous and should not possess firearms while the order is in effect. That the states have that power exposes the redundancy of the federal law as "feel good" legislation.
The DVRO provisions of the Texas Family Code are read by Texas courts as requiring only a low standard of proof akin to a preponderance of evidence or "more than a scintilla of evidence." A persuasive argument may be made that the standard should be the more robust one of clear and convincing evidence. In Addington v. Texas (1979), the Supreme Court approved that standard for an involuntary commitment to a mental hospital.
Back to the historical issue, the Brief of Second Amendment Law Scholars argues that the Founders had little reason to regulate firearms to address domestic violence, because colonial-era muskets were not commonly used in such incidents, as handguns are today. Instead, domestic violence was committed with "whips, sticks, hoes, shovels, axes, knives, feet, or fists." But that only reinforces that at the Founding, actual assault and murder were addressed with prison or the gallows. No laws prohibited persons who had not committed a crime from possession of firearms—or whips, sticks, hoes, shovels, axes, or knives.
Jacob Charles, one of the authors of the above brief, recently published "On Sordid Sources in Second Amendment Litigation." It poses the dilemma of relying "on relevant but undeniably heinous laws or allow[ing] gun regulations supported by empirical evidence to be felled." Should the advocate refuse to rely on, e.g., the slave codes, to support restrictions, or hold one's nose and follow what he calls the Abstraction Approach, under which one cites such heinous laws as analogues to support modern bans?
Prof. Charles argues for the latter. First, "judges will not interrogate how the Second Amendment itself" has "been used to further White supremacist ends…." For that he cites the thesis of Carl Bogus, which I have shown to have ignored that recognition of the right to keep and bear arms was demanded in Northern states where slavery had been or was being abolished. Charles then refers to "incidents of guns furthering white supremacist purposes." Well yes, at times when African Americans were deprived of Second Amendment rights.
From the above, Prof. Charles concludes that "it would be especially incongruous to use the racist history of gun regulations to pretermit legislation today." He adds: "The law struck down in Heller, for example, was itself backed in the 1970s by a Black-led coalition that was especially concerned about the toll gun violence was taking on Black lives."
But the D.C. ban prevented African Americans (and all others) from obtaining handguns for defense of themselves, their homes, and their communities. Would you care to speculate against which population group it was largely enforced? And it should be recalled that the lead plaintiffs in Second Amendment challenges, Seegars v. Gonzales and Parker v. District of Columbia – which became Heller in the Supreme Court – were African American women.
And then there was Otis McDonald v. Chicago, led by an elderly African American man who, according to the complaint, "resides in a high-crime neighborhood and is active in community affairs. As a consequence of trying to make his neighborhood a better place to live, Mr. McDonald has been threatened by drug dealers." Also, if you're for criminal justice reform, check out the Brief of the Black Attorneys of Legal Aid, which Bruen cited for incidents in which "a law-abiding person was driven to violate the Sullivan Law because of fear of victimization and as a result was arrested, prosecuted, and incarcerated."
Contrary to the strategy of relying on the likes of the slave codes to justify the federal ban on gun possession by persons subject to a DVRO, the Government in Rahimi decided to remain silent on that as an appropriate analogue. While the other analogues it cites don't really fit either, dropping that argument was well overdue.
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The purpose of the Second Amendment was to preserve militias and militias were an important protection against slave rebellions.
One of the purposes. And the one most applicable to the federal government was militias.
But once again just what in the 2nd amendment gave the federal government any more power to organise and preserve militias than the already existing and more detailed powers in the Article 1 militia clause?
About the only thing I see is "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".
The only purpose of the Second Amendment was to reassure those concerned about Congress's delegated authority over the militia of the several states. The manner by which this purpose was accomplished was to protect the right to keep and bear arms.
It neither expanded nor detracted from Congress's authority. Its primary author, Madison didn't think it actually did anything with respect to any power delegated to Congress. The reason for adopting it was the objections of Anti-Federalists to Congress having any role or authority with respect to the militia.
Your right, it didn't do anything regarding Congress' militia powers, it guaranteed the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, which wasn't a power Congress had anyway.
Which of course why the militia reading of the amendment is so ridiculous.
Kaz - the lefts reading of the militia clause is ridiculus. A leftist position is that the right to keep and bear arms is only protected when the government gives you permission to serve in a militia.
Both the right and left misinterpret the militia clause.
Its two rights A) a well regulated militia, necessary for a free state, shall not be infringed and B) the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
That is consistent with the historical writings of the time where the right to keep and bear arms was for both the common defense and for self defense.
I agree with your last paragraph, but what would it mean to infringe a militia? I don't think that interpretation works in terms of parallel construction of the sentence in English.
Michael – Not to infringe on the right of the people to form militia’s for the common defence.
Granted the prior draft versions of 2A are likewise difficult to follow. However there was a lot of historical writings during the times regarding the right to keep and bear arms for the common defense with intermingling of the right to keep and bear arms for self defence.
The two rights is also the most consistent with the historical writings of the time.
The lefts version that right only exists when serving in a militia is inane. While the some of the right view the militia clause as one of the reasons for the individual right, though that line of reasoning makes the militia clause superfluous. Thus the only logical reading of 2A is to protect the two rights both the right of the people to form militia’s and the individual right.
You are reading a lot of words into the Second Amendment that just aren't there. It's a lot simpler to do what the Supreme Court did, and read the prefatory clause as providing one rationale rather than a separate right or limitation on the clearly stated "right to keep and bear arms".
A lot of state constitutions have provisions against having private militias, so that’s not right.
States may have militias but the can be federalized and are under the training and discipline prescribed by Congress, so if that’s a right it’s a pretty weak one.
The well regulated militia clause is merely a justification of why a right of the people to keep and bear arms is a federal question, not merely a local one left up to the states.
That’s also it’s natural reading, as an explanatory clause not a functional clause.
Good thing we got rid of slavery but kept the right to keep and bear arms. Indeed, one of the main impetuses of the 14th Amendment was to ensure the Freedmen were able to protect themselves—either individually or as part of community militias—from lynch mobs. It was only after the Supreme Court stopped enforcing the original meaning of the Constitution that black people were once again terrorized.
And, sadly, still today both the federal and state governments are doing their damnedest to disarm black people and communities “for their own protection.” Nothing makes white liberals feel safer than disarming black people for life for smoking some marijuana.
It's true: some of the "wrong" people have been denied gun permits. See, for example, https://reason.com/2021/10/27/why-martin-luther-king-couldnt-get-a-carry-permit/
Otis McDonald was probably not the only black test plaintiff who got a creepy feeling when he met the all-white crowd that was bankrolling his lawsuit.
Yeah, the same creepy feeling that the black NRA members get when they go to those lilly white gun club meetings. Stereotype much?
"The avid hunter got involved in the pro-gun rights movement when Illinois lawmakers were considering an assault rifle ban in 2005. Worried the ban might outlaw his hunting rifles, McDonald attended a gun rally in Springfield, the state capital. 'I was the only black guy that I saw,' McDonald said."
https://www.aarp.org/politics-society/rights/info-05-2010/chicago_man_stands_up_for_right_to_bear_arms.html
"With financial backing from the Second Amendment Foundation, Gura settled on lead plaintiff Otis McDonald. McDonald, a 76 year-old African American, came to Gura's attention after he attended several gun rights rallies in Springfield, where he recalls he was one of the few people there from Chicago and "probably the only black person.'"
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/we-didnt-want-some-montan_b_471771(quoting an article in the Chicago Tribune)
… in which the left reveals, once again, that they believe Black people should not have a right to keep and bear arms specifically because Black people are a minority.
Those were quotes.
... selected by a leftie, quoting one far-left source, in defense of a spontaneous, quote-free, race-essentialist attempt at mindreading.
No wonder you only came up with three words in captcrisis's defense.
Ad hominem is a fallacy.
I think there is an individual right, I like Heller but don't much care for Bruen. I also stay out of these threads. But your knee-jerk reaction was too dumb to resist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
This free service provided for those who have forgotten what Latin phrases mean. (Pointing out that someone made an argument with a specific flaw, thereby living down to a stereotype, is not argumentum ad hominem.)
You said: "the left reveals, once again, that they believe Black people should not have a right to keep and bear arms specifically because Black people are a minority."
When it was pointed out that these were quotes from a black person, you said: "selected by a leftie, quoting one far-left source, in defense of a spontaneous, quote-free, race-essentialist attempt at mindreading."
You attacked the source. In order to ignore an actual perspective from a real life black person. Calling that only ad hominem is *generous*.
Cap - try harder to hide your racism
I personally would focus on the Surety Statutes because I think that is the best analogous argument. It’s a civil protection method based on demonstrating a reasonable fear of harm. That’s a lot like a domestic violence protective order. I don’t think the fact that having to post a bond in lieu of confiscating your guns as an alternative to disarmament demonstrates that the State couldn’t take your guns under the circumstance.
I think the Supreme Court is going to be really reluctant to strike down the DV order as a gun prohibition. You just need to give them the best argument. And I think the surety statutes are a better argument than racist states disarming minorities on the thought that they are violent.
This is the best approach.
As an aside: A lot of people use the phrase "post a bond" these days. There was a time when bail wasn't a question of handing some magic sum of money to a magistrate. In fact, it didn't even involve money down.
"Surety" and "bail" referred to people. You were in you're bail's "friendly custody". They were someone willing to take responsibility for you and be financially on the line for it. A voluntary recognizance for another, essentially.
If I'm Bill Gates, and I threaten someone, and no one is willing to lose any of their own money in the event I commit a crime (or if it were pretrial bail, if they're not willing to risk their money in case I don't show up), I go to jail, since I have no bail. My personal wealth has nothing to do with it.
It’s nice that a common interest in guns and civil rights can bring people of disparate backgrounds together to work for a common goal.
I like the outcome in Bruen. The reasoning is garbage. The "history and tradition" it waves at is fictional. Concealed carry wasn't a thing when the Second Amendment was adopted. It was a frowned-upon activity. Something criminals and ruffians did. I think the development of modern society and our norms on the carry of deadly force require a shall-issue concealed permit system, but it's not justified by looking at any law or practice in the late Eighteenth Century.
While an odious history and tradition, moreover, the disarmament of slaves and free blacks is part of the "history and tradition" of gun control in this Republic. It doesn't make sense to claim we're bound by "history and tradition" and, at the same time, refusing to consider the parts we don't like. That's too much like a "living constitution."
It's quite true that concealed carry was a frowned upon activity at the time the 2nd amendment was adopted, whereas open carry was routine and uncontroversial. But this doesn't present any problems for Bruen.
It's a right to carry, period. I believe in earlier cases the Court has explained that states can allow open carry, concealed carry, but must allow SOME form of carry. That's not the stance I would have taken, I'd have said states must allow open carry, but may also, as a matter of discretion, allow concealed carry. But that's not where the Court came down on the issue.
The state, by licensing concealed carry, while discouraging open carry, has made its choice. Carry is a right, they won't let you carry openly, so they MUST allow you to carry concealed.
Which cases were those?
Fair enough, I seemed to recall something of the sort, but can't back it up.
You’re probably thinking of the discussion in Bruen about state laws and court decisions that essentially said one or the other can be prohibited, but not both. Bruen, 142 S. Ct. 2111, 2146-47. It concluded its discussion of such laws and decisions by stating, “All told, these antebellum state-court decisions evince a consensus view that States could not altogether prohibit the public carry of ‘arms’ protected by the Second Amendment or state analogues.” Id. at 2147.
I don’t either, in fact Peruta sidestepped the issue by saying there is no right to concealed carry, while other decisions said there was no right to open carry either, but didn’t address a right to bear arms as a whole.
Until of course Younger jumped the shark and the 9th en banc said there is no right to bear arms at all. That was GVR’d right after Bruen, and it’s still working it’s way back.
Bruen didn’t say there is a right to concealed carry either, but that if the only way to legally carry a gun is via permit, the permit had to be shall issue, not discretionary.
I believe that was when Illinois was finally ordered to allow "Carry" in 2013.
They dithered and stalled about for a year after the decision was handed down. Finally ordered to have either or both Open and/or Concealed Carry by June 30th (IIRC?) or "Constitutional Carry would go into effect.
The Democrat run Legislature panicked and put together a slap dash system of "Shall Issue" for Concealed Carry with 16 required hours of training, a $150 price tag and a required 3-year renewal for another $150.
Bacchys shows a far better command of historical method than Halbrook, or for that matter, better also than the majority who voted for Bruen. Every historical point bacchys makes in his two brief paragraphs is correct. Which is two more correct paragraphs of history than appear in all of Bruen.
Because the alleged historical analysis in Bruin is so profoundly incompetent, nobody can have any supportable idea what that decision means. It is indeed egregiously wrong.
Naturally, everyone—including Halbrook, in competition with a host of would-be gun controllers—now rushes to try to fill with their own preferred interpretations the critical void left in the decision by its benighted author. He is a justice who is not only one of the most incompetent to sit on the Supreme Court, but arguably the most corrupt justice ever to serve.
What the decision does illustrate, however, is that if a self-described originalist does not know how to do history, every claim that originalism constrains judicial decision making goes right out the window. Bruen is not only wrong about the past, it is also a de facto illustration of living constitutionalism in action—and thus one of the best examples available to use to critique that tradition. As a result of it, gun fans like Halbrook are forced to rely on an utterly illegitimate decision as a bulwark for their arguments.
Gun advocates should not be trying to support Bruen, or to use Bruen. They should instead be trying as hard and fast as they can to overturn Bruen, on their own terms, before political happenstance empowers gun opponents to do it for them on a more restrictive basis.
Lathrop
You continuallly demostrate a very myopic understanding of history.
Both you and Bacchys conflate two separate issues concealed carry vs the individual right to keep and bear arms. As Hallbrook notes with his massive historical references, the individual right to keep and bear arms is extensive.
Your continued reference to professional historians can not dispute the historical record cited by Hallbrook.
To dismiss made-up history, incomplete history, incorrect history, misunderstood history, and bogus history, is anything but myopic. You do not even know enough about history to understand that the standards for reading history are close to nil, while standards for researching and writing history are numbered among the most demanding professional canons.
Try to notice, when Thomas (or Scalia) sat down to write history into Supreme Court decisions they obligated themselves (or at least should have) to be constrained by the more-demanding professional standards, not the sounds-good standards of best-selling present-minded authorship about the past. A Supreme Court decision is not a casual trip to the local library to find a historical-fiction page-turner.
It doesn't matter that you don't know that—neither does Halbrook or Thomas, after all, and neither did Scalia—because unlike those others, you do not pretend to historical expertise. Except you do presume from having swallowed Halbrook's historical swill that you have become well-enough informed to school others who actually understand why Halbrook is mistaken.
Bacchys above has demonstrated in two short paragraphs that in any historical debate he could wipe the floor with you. You can't see that either, but you are incautious and unwise to let others see it.
Here is the best hint I can give you: just because someone puts purported information in front of you in the apparent form of a historical citation, that is not even slightly evidence that what you are being told is factually correct, let alone accurately understood and relevant to historical issues under discussion. Take it or leave it as you please. I could refer you to an academic text on historiography, but most folks don't have the training to get through two pages of it, so I won't trouble you.
Lathrop - you are the one that dismisses the historical record that Hallbrook cites
Are trying to claim the historical record cited by halbrook doesnt exist? If so, then say so. but you can not reach your "historical version " unless you pretend that those historical facts dont exist
Tom, there is neither space here nor time sufficient to teach you methods of history you remain unaware that you do not know. The best I can do is offer you a challenge which might alert you to a predicament. Here it is:
You refer to, "historical facts." No doubt you understand that, "historical," implies intervals of time, including long intervals amounting to centuries. When during those intervals, by which standards—and by what processes—do you suppose any inferred passage of history, allegedly evidenced by some presently discernible survival into the interval of our lived experience, acquired the status of which you speak—the status of, "historical fact"?
If you cannot offer a cogent reply to that question for each posited historical fact you purport to rely upon, then what makes you suppose you know anything at all about them? What makes you suppose you ought to trust an author who suggested them to you as foregone conclusions, while omitting to supply information which you need to justify reliance?
Easy question. The history we speak of is the law, as.enacted by the legislature, and enforced by the courts.
Lawless acts whether under color of law or by mobs, or by private citizens are not part of that history. Acts of the legislature are faithfully recorded, convictions are recorded and a fair representation have survived. Laws struck down and laws upheld are recorded faithfully in court records.
That's the legal history and tradition we speak of.
Kazninski, without the slightest inkling you are doing it, you are begging the question and the challenge I put to Tom.
You suppose it is a foregone conclusion that a present-minded analysis of archived survivals from an incomplete historical record will deliver historical facts. No competent historian would agree with you.
Historians understand that a major part of their problem is to infer from fragmentary historical survivals the forgotten passages of history which have not survived—which encompasses most of what happened in history. Thus, to peer at history only through the tiny keyhole of legal records is to narrow further an already too-scanty scope for analysis.
All those documents which have survived, and other surviving records too, provide but fragmentary representation of the extensive context of creation which gave now-forgotten meanings to past occurrences, including every record which has survived, and the much larger trove of others which have not. The only hope to glimpse by reasonable inferences even a part of those forgotten passages of history is to maximally broaden the scope of investigation.
It is folly and arrogance to suppose as Bruen does that an analysis confined to review by lawyers of legal records from past times, but analyzing only those, and for want of knowledge about the past to analyze them only in terms of present legal norms, can establish facts about the past. When you add, as Bruen did, a stricture to ignore not only more than half the past, but also to ignore almost everything except the texts of laws as written, you go past folly to verge on profound unreason.
Also Kazinski, you have again begged the fraught questions of what conduct in the past was lawless, and what was otherwise, at various times and places, and by what means those distinctions can be sorted out today.
Well Stephen since the primary source is the text of the constitution, then as the Bruen court has said the burden lies on those who would impose restrictions on the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
Imagining there might have been restrictions isn't enough, finding restrictions that would not pass constitutional muster today won't fly either.
So here's the challenge, find concrete evidence, or live with the text and whatever history and traditions we have a record of.
'The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed', is fairly plain, so that's a high bar right there. Its not up to the people who want the plain text to control to prove the vast majority of our history honored those words. Its up to those who don't think those words have any significant meaning to prove their case, and Bruen has given them the standard they must meet, and imposed the burden of proof upon those defending laws that infringe that right.
I.e., we will use "history and tradition"...except where the history and tradition aren't pleasant, so we'll ignore them.
Very convenient.
We aren’t refusing to consider the parts we don’t like. We are refusing to consider the parts that would violate the 14th amendments due process and privileges and immunities, and equal protection clauses.
The fact that the laws were passed oppressing disfavored minorities like slaves, freedmen, Indians, Mexicans, Asians, doesn’t mean now we should all be treated like disfavored minorities.
It means that we are all the favored and pampered majority.
Write the history of those laws in the history books and preserve the shameful memory, but the 14th amendment means that laws that expressly violated the due process and equal protection under the law clauses can not be part of the legal history considered by the courts, other than as a contrary example.
The only thing a law disarming freedman or slaves can be used to justify is a ban on disarming any law abiding citizen.
Kazinski, the question you beg with your comment is whether someone going armed at a particular time and place in history was law-abiding or not. It may be that legal analysis has room to apply retroactively legal norms from the present to judge long-ago conduct. I had not suspected that, but maybe it is so.
There is no room to do that with regard to history and call it legitimate historical analysis. If you want that time-scrambled legal analysis to prevail in Bruen, I have no brief to object legally. But if you claim you do it on the basis of history and tradition, you do not know what you are talking about. If you go the next step—as the decision actually does—and insist that any critic is wrong who does not follow the absurd and idiosyncratic style of historical analysis used in the decision, then you have written a meaningless opinion.
But Stephen, a case that is argued isn't retroactive. Its a applying the text as informed by tradition and history to today. And using tradition and history to decide what is permissible for the law to regulate today is bound not only by what was permissible in 1820, but by what the constitution has been amended to permit today.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms has not been narrowed since it was inacted, the right of the government to abridge rights of disfavored minorities has been forbidden, thus laws abridging rights of minorities are now no longer part of our legal history and tradition to be noticed by the courts.
Those statutes have been torn down like the statue of a Confederate General.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms has not been narrowed since it was inacted,
Sort of true, but only because when the Constitution and the 2A were enacted there was zero personal self-defense involved in the federal constitutional right, either in the text or in the intent. You will ransack the historical record in vain, trying to find evidence to say otherwise.
The best anyone has done is to show—as everyone already knew—that some state constitutions did protect personal self-defense. And that the practice of personal defense with firearms was commonplace and mostly tolerated. As a matter of history, that is not in the slightest historical proof, or even historical suggestion, to justify an argument that the federal constitution treated personal self-defense likewise. And there was no reason why it needed to do so. States could take care of those questions, as they had been doing in disparate ways—a fact which would have made it nearly impossible to find a ratifiable federal consensus.
But there is also the problem that with its historically arbitrary methodology Bruen ruled out of bounds more than half of U.S. history since the Constitution was ratified. And that half—from the late 19th century onwards—happened to be the part where history and tradition most systematically narrowed the definition of the right to keep and bear arms. You get to claim it did not happen only because Bruen ruled in advance that there is half of U.S. history which does not count.
That is stark proof of cherry picking history to get to a pre-chosen conclusion. That is a method without the slightest sign of judicial constraint, historical constraint, logical constraint, or any other kind of constraint. That method is boundless.
Thomas liked it because it turned him into the literal king of gun policy. In advance, he ruled out as illegitimate every possible critique with power to overturn his own grotesque legal gerrymander. There may be morally worse Supreme Court decisions in history, but none that I ever heard of is a worse mess methodologically.
No, I won't rack my brain at all.
Consider these facts:
- Before the revolution there was a right to keep and bear arms. (English declaration of right: "That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence suitable to their conditions and as allowed by law".
- The constitution referred to "the right of the people" an existing right.
-the religious test law, arguably, and the 1st amendment definitely removed the restrictions on non protestants, the 5th equal protection removed the "suitable to their conditions" clause, and "shall not be infringed" removed the "as allowed by law" clause.
You talk a lot about history, but you don't know much about it.
“Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.”
—Lawrence v. Texas
Why do gun-rights advocates always limit themselves to the Second Amendment when the binding precedent of Lawrence v. Texas is right there? If you can’t fit your argument into Bruen’s text-history-and-tradition formulation, just invoke Lawrence’s liberty-in-its-manifold-possibilities formulation. And we all knew how much Justice Kagan always respect’s precedents.
Besides the fact MAGA wants Lawrence v Texas thrown out, it is probably only useful against laws prohibiting consensual relations with a firearm.
But not all gun-rights advocates are MAGA (I'm certainly not). If your goal is to protect or even expand gun rights, then you should take every avenue available. That includes Lawrence's binding conception of substantive due process.
And Lawrence's language and reasoning are not limited to consensual relations. It's an expansive conception "of liberty in its manifold possibilities." That includes gun rights.
If it's good for the liberal goose, it's good for the conservative gander.
I’d put my gun nut credentials against anyone’s, but I have to ask: is this really the hill we want to die on?
Would you care to describe the hill you perceive here? I'm seeing a bunch of foothills, and they seem fairly scenic.
I think he means the hill of “gun prohibition for targets of domestic violence restraining orders”. The left figures that if they can get away with revoking rights in this one ahistoric, disproportionate case, they can get away with it in other ahistoric, disproportionate cases.
He’s right: Bad facts and bad clients make bad law.
Rahimi is a bad dude. He is unsympathetic and I predict Kavanaugh and Roberts will side with the govt because “domestic abusers shouldnt have guns.” They will probably adopt the limited position of the ACLU. Alito might even go along with this (due process shmu process). We could easily get 5-4 or 6-3 for the government here, because of Rahimi’s history.
This could change if SC grants cert on Range. But: the government is slow walking Range to prevent it from being consolidated with Rahimi, even as they cried emergency! in Rahimi. Isolated, Rahimi is the governments ideal case to present to the SC. The governments position becomes more tenuous if they have to litigate Range at the same time, because Range is sympathetic (non violent conviction).
The hill I'd be willing to die on is, "If you think he's that dangerous, why don't you lock him up?" Failure to lock somebody up amounts to a de facto concession that you don't really think he's all that dangerous.
But I agree that Rahimi is one bad dude, and hard cases make bad law. And some of the justices will be looking for an excuse to compromise; Most of the Bruen majority don't much like the 2nd amendment, they just weren't onboard for using that as an excuse to zero it out, the way the minority would.
But it's still at least possible the Court will reason as I do: If you think somebody is so dangerous they absolutely MUST not have a gun, act like it. Lock them up.
Bellmore, pretty obviously, none of the amendments, including the 2A, can be adjudicated on the basis that a particular interpretation is correct beyond a reasonable doubt. Your analogy is bogus.
Could you amplify on that? As often as I wish you'd be less long winded, maybe you were too much so to communicate your meaning there.
I'll argue this.
Without a conviction. You cannot deny someone their rights. If you can deny someone's 2A rights with a mere restraining order. You're also denying them their 4A rights (denying them their property). What else can you take away from them? Can you deny them the right to vote? Can you deny them their right to speech?
Remember. You've already denied their rights without a trial. Maybe they get a judicial hearing. Maybe not. The standard is pretty low regardless.
Thee entire purpose of a restraining order is denying people rights they would otherwise possess.
But restraining orders have a scope, they might ban people from talking to a specific person or persons, they might ban your proximity to certain places, or even attending specific church, etc. But they don't ban you from exercising those rights anyplace, anytime, everywhere.
The 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8), prevents you from exercising your 2nd amendment rights everywhere, all of the time if you are subject to a domestic violence restraining order.
Its not that someone can have there 2nd amendment rights reasonably restricted as with other rights restrictions under restraining orders, its that they are completely abrogated without a conviction that had been required under our tradition and history for a categorical abrogation of 2nd amendment rights.
The hill I’d be willing to die on is, “If you think he’s that dangerous, why don’t you lock him up?”
1. Are you willing to pay higher taxes for the massive increase in pre-trial detention necessary to lock up every abusive husband or boyfriend until he can be tried?
2. Locking up abusers as a matter of course will probably lead to fewer reports, because women will be afraid of calling the police and afraid of doing something that might put their husband/boyfriend and the father of their children in jail for a long period of time.
3. Disarmament is a lesser sanction. Maybe these guys would prefer to have some freedom rather than none.
1. If we're taking away so many people's 2nd amendment rights with restraining orders that it would be a financial disaster to incarcerate them until a speedy trial, then something is wildly wrong. Either our society is totally breaking down, or the threshold for taking those rights away has been pretextually lowered to enable widespread violation of the 2nd amendment. I'm guessing the latter.
2. Then I guess the women aren't really that afraid.
3. I don't care. Supposedly this is about protecting people while nominally at least not violating the Constitution. What these guys would prefer doesn't enter into it. They'd prefer to just be left completely alone, I expect.
Pissing the guy off by taking his guns away, (Or anyway, the ones you know about...) while leaving him free to do as he wants, doesn't protect anybody.
Don’t DVRO’s generally prohibit contact with the person “at threat” let alone attacking them?
If a DVRO is issued against someone and there is no confidence they will follow a “no contact” provision, why would there be any confidence that they would respect a restriction on firearms possession?
Someone subject to a DVRO with a “no contact” provision and following its terms will almost always be spending the vast, vast, vast majority of their time outside of gunfire range of the protected entities. Why would the person subject to the DVRO therefore be deprived of the right to effectively engage in self-defense when attacked by those not involved in the DVRO 99.9% of the time?
If someone subject to a DVRO is not trusted to adhere to, for example, a “no contact” provision that would seem make them a danger to, at least, the protected entities even with a “no firearms” restriction. Shouldn’t such a person be incarcerated for the protection of the protected entity, let alone the rest of society?
Because guns are physical objects that law enforcement can search for and confiscate.
Yeah, like meth, which is why nobody has that, right?
I wish we had some body of people selected by the public to write or amend laws, so that we could somehow address the problem of “this existing law is bad”.
Maybe, especially if they generated thousands of pages of output each year, they might set aside a few sentences to establish a defensible basis for taking away someone's gun rights without a criminal conviction.
That's not how rights work**. Just because Congress passes a law, does not mean its constitutional. The majority can and often does violate peoples rights, its up to the courts to protect them.
**and you know it, you are just being a troll
My contention is that the 5th Circuit got it right: the existing federal statute violates the Constitution, and is thus invalid. If Congress wants to try again, they are free to do that. The intention is not a good reason to either keep the unconstitutional law or for courts to rewrite it in some kind of "saving construction".
We do. See Article V.
Article V can't be the only solution if people are misinterpreting things, including everything that has come out of Article V.
Also, yes:restraining orders are frequently abused. I dont think that fact will mean much here. In fact, counterintuitively, I think it will push Kavanaugh (virtue signaler in chief) towards the govt. Kavanaugh knows how easily the process is abused (see his conformation hearing), but he will be eager to signal "no-harm-no-foul real domestic abusers shouldnt have guns, which isnt me!"
This post is about one (1) case. Do you think that might be the case I was talking about?
"A couple of briefs make the point that, even if the Court invalidates the federal ban, state judges should still be able to issue protective orders with particularized findings that a person is dangerous and should not possess firearms while the order is in effect. "
I suppose it's futile to expect the judiciary to limit the power of the judiciary to infringe rights...
An important case from Massachusetts where a state court judge threw out a Massachusetts requiring a Massachusetts carry permit law as unconstitutional as applied towards a NH man for carrying a gun in Massachusetts without a Massachusetts permit.
"An individual only loses a constitutional right if he commits an offense or is or has been engaged in certain behavior that is covered by 18 USC section 922,” Judge Coffey wrote on August 3rd in Commonwealth of Massachusetts v. Dean F. Donnell. “He doesn’t lose that right simply by traveling into an adjoining state whose statute mandates that residents of that state obtain a license prior to exercising their constitutional right. To hold otherwise would inexplicably treat Second Amendment rights differently than other individually held rights. Therefore, the Court finds that GL. 269, sec. (10a) is unconstitutional as applied to this particularly situated defendant and allows the motion to dismiss on that ground.”
The ruling could have significant implications for determining the scope of the right to carry a firearm in public. It is one of the first legal decisions to address gun-carry rights across state lines since the Supreme Court recognized a general public carry right in New York State Rifle and Pistol Association v. Bruen last June. It could fuel gun-rights advocates’ push for the right to travel in all 50 states with firearms in public, also known as “national reciprocity.”
The defendant in the case, Dean Donnell, is a legal resident of New Hampshire. New Hampshire is a permitless gun carry state, meaning anyone 18 years of age or older who can legally possess a firearm may carry it in public openly or concealed. It also issues carry permits to residents for reciprocity purposes. However, Massachusetts does not honor New Hampshire permits."
https://thereload.com/massachusetts-judge-rules-law-against-carrying-guns-across-state-lines-unconstitutional/
Massachusetts has tried to almost repeal the 2nd amendment since Bruen. If this is upheld letting NH, VT and Maine residents carry their guns in Massachusetts per their state laws its going to put state officials in a tizzy.
Decision here:
https://www.docdroid.net/524o4XV/opinion-coffey-comm-v-donnell-pdf
Is the 2nd amendment binding on Massachusetts? Everyone just assumes so, but is incorporation legitimate? Seems doubtful.
Nobody assumes so.
McDonald v Chicago said it explicitly 13 years ago.
SCOTUS ruling a certain way merely means we have to pretend something is so.
But that doesn't make its interpretation correct, which is what I'm asking.
Well I actually think that the 2nd amendment was incorporated in 1791. It doesn't mention Congress, and the article 1 militia clause already gave Congress authority to arm the militia regardless of state laws.
In 1840 the Georgia Supreme court said the 2nd amendment was binding on Georgia, and struck down a state law restricting the right to bear arms. There was no such right in Georgia's constitution, but they said the 2nd amendment was binding on Georgia. There aren't any contrary cases until, ironically, the 14th amendment passed mandating incorporation.
Kavanaugh and Roberts are results-oriented justices who don't give a flying fuck about history, except when it suits them. For Kavanaugh, the result will maximize his tendency toward narcissistic virtue signalling.
Y’all got the Court but will never be happy.
And then they'll die. Or at least their control of the Court will die.
Years ago, I heard of a telephone service available by subscription. If you signed up, every so often, at long, unpredictable intervals, your phone would ring, and the caller would intone, "You are going to die."
The notion, of course, was that an occasional memento mori from out of the blue could help the subscriber stay focused on what was most important. I suggest nobody needs that kind of focus more than gun nuts today.
Likes are cheap, and it seems to me that adding to them to a platform makes everyone perform instead of reasoning and debating, as they do on here (mostly).
But gosh, there are some comments on here I badly wish I could like. Your reply is on that list.
I have become less and less interested in the effort on both sides to shoehorn modern gun society into (or out of) the historical circumstances and goals that existed in the early 1700s. It's become a kind of Talmudic debate with no actual meaning.
I'd prefer to hear about how current 2A rights are making lives better now.
Gun control has ALWAYS been a racist project, no matter how you try to spin it.
A long, long post, but I can’t help but focus on how disreputable it all is. If domestic abusers don’t get disarmed, they will kill women. It is that simple. They won’t kill Prof. Halbrook- HE has nothing to worry about. But they will kill women, and he will consider those lives loss a proper sacrifice for his gun fetish.
This is as close to pure evil as an argument can be.
If domestic abusers don’t get disarmed, they will kill women.
What proof do you have that taking away their guns them will prevent them from killing women? They still have knives, rope, and other tools. There's many cases in which an abuser just beat a woman to death with their bare hands. Can't take those away either.
Guns are somewhat more effective at killing people, and also, since many of these crimes are, in the old phrase, "crimes of passion", having a gun nearby is going to be a major factor.
This took me literally 60 seconds to find on Google: "Women are five times more likely to be murdered by an abusive partner when the abuser has access to a gun."
That statement cites two studies:
Websdale N, Ferraro K, & Barger SD. (2019). The domestic violence fatality review clearinghouse: introduction to a new National Data System with a focus on firearms. Injury Epidemiology.
Campbell JC, Webster D, Koziol-McLain J, Block C, Campbell D, Curry MA… & Laughon K. (2003). Risk factors for femicide in abusive relationships: results from a multisite case control study. American Journal of Public Health.
The second study is the source of the claim. Link below. Their methodology sucks. Their data is worse. Backward looking. Only volunteers. Doesn't actually know all with access to guns.
There's lies, damn lies, and statistics. This one fails on multiple counts.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447915/
BIllyG, I'm open to legitimate critiques of the study, but these don't pass muster. Of *course* the data on homicide is backward looking. And I don't know what you mean by volunteers. Interviewees had to agree to participate in the interviews, but they were identified by randomized selection. They didn't "volunteer" to participate in the study the way drug trial participants do.
As for whether the victims "know all with access to guns" I guess only the Allfather knows that. But every perpetrator who killed a woman by using a gun definitely had one, and the interviewees likely knew whether the perpetrator owned one. Remember, the contention is not that "people who own guns are abusers," it's that "access to guns increases the lethality of abuse."
The first study was paywalled.
The second one was a case-control study, an approach with documented problems. But here one problem is easily pinpointed:
"Abuser’s use of a gun in the worst incident of abuse was associated with a 41-fold increase in risk of femicide after control for other risk factors, this effect apparently mediating the effects of abuser’s access to a gun, which was no longer significant. However, previous threats with a weapon continued to be associated with increased femicide risks (OR = 4.41; 95% CI = 1.76, 11.06)."
Ok, so guys who shoot at you are hugely more likely to kill you, but guys who just own guns are no more likely to kill you than anybody else.
I think if you had a "red flag" law that only targeted using a gun to abuse somebody, you'd get a lot less push back. But this still raises the question of why somebody who has used a gun to threaten somebody isn't already in jail.
"When additional individual-level risk factors for homicide were added to the model (model 2), both abuser’s access to a firearm (adjusted OR = 7.59; 95% CI = 3.85, 14.99) and abuser’s use of illicit drugs (adjusted OR = 4.76; 95% CI = 2.19, 10.34) were strongly associated with intimate partner femicide, although the abuser’s excessive use of alcohol was not."
You have to quote the right part of the analysis.
Sure, I read that. Key point is, I didn't stop reading when I reached that. They ran 7 different regression models, adding more factors with each model. You cited model 2. I cited model 7, the one that had the highest predictive power.
You know, the one where they found that the abuser simply owning a gun had no statistical significance if they hadn't used it during their earlier abuse?
Having used a gun in earlier abuse had huge predictive power. Just owning one? None by itself, once you looked to see if they'd used it.
Your study makes a really strong case for people who use guns in intimate abuse being dangerous. It makes no case at all for people who haven't being dangerous to allow guns.
But, of course, using a gun while abusing somebody is a serious felony, so why not lock them up and promptly try them, instead of just indiscriminately taking them away from people who your own study says aren't more dangerous with them?
To sum up, the only reason owning a gun, by itself, seemed to have any predictive power is that everybody who had already misused one was known to own one.
Suppose eating green skittles with soda caused cancer? If you asked if skittles caused cancer, and didn't look closely at the color or what you drank with them, you might want to ban skittles, period.
There was a time when law and common sense were thought to have a lot to do with one another.* There was a time when law and morality were thought to have a lot to do with one another.*
The framers wouldn't have had a second's hesitation disarming someone like Rahimi - they pretty much did, in the form of peace warrants. But more broadly, the provisions in the Bill of Rights were essentially just an enumeration of revered Common Law rights. And one of the boasts of the Common Law was its pragmatism. No law was to be read as a suicide pact, and for the most part, the Bill of Rights was a description of law that existed before they ever adopted the provisions of the Bill - law independent of the Bill. Law that was not a straightjacket.
This isn't an argument that because we enacted bad law, it somehow isn't law. This isn't an argument that because we enacted bad law, we don't have to follow it. It is an argument that reasonable exercises of the police power within Congress' plenary jurisdiction are and always were legal, we never did lay down any law to preclude them, and it is within the legitimate use of legislative discretion.
If Congress had passed such a law, for DC and the territories, in, say, 1800, the Marshall Court would have upheld it. Easy case.
(Rahimi should still win, on lack of federal police power grounds. My point is that Texas, or Congress within its plenary jurisdiction would have every right to make and enforce such a law)
*And then we invented lawyers (just kidding - kinda)
The point is, they wouldn't have had a second's hesitation dealing with him, probably permanently. What they wouldn't have done, is to take his guns away and set him loose.
We're talking about unconstitutionality. They didn't have such a law, but I'm arguing that they were not barred from passing such a law, nor would they have thought they were barred from passing such a law.
Well, but the problem is that you've go this amendment saying that you can't infringe this right, and so, if you want to infringe it anyway in a particular case, you're required to produce evidence that the generation that put that right into the Constitution wouldn't have regarded your proposal as an infringement.
Your speculation that they would have been fine with it isn't evidence of anything but your own mindset.
This is backwards. The evidence to be produced would need to run the other way. As far as courts are concerned, a statute is constitutional unless it can clearly be shown otherwise.
For the record, I don’t believe the Bill of Rights is incorporated. As far as Congress is concerned, I think the militia interpretation of the second amendment is correct. One might argue for an individual right in the ninth amendment, but I am inclined to think it too ambiguous to be justiciable, even if it exists.
Far too many Americans today fail to remember that upholding constitutions is the People’s job too. Primarily, in fact. It would surely be an exaggeration to call judicial review extreme, but it is contrived to be a backup, and one that requires right and wrong answers, not mere guesswork.