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Eleventh Circuit Holds That Alabama Ban on Transgender Procedures on Minors Can Go in Effect
From today's decision in Eknes-Tucker v. Marshall, by Judges Barbara Lagoa, joined by Judge Andrew Brasher and District Judge J.P. Boulee (N.D. Ga.):
[S]ection 4(a)(1)–(3) of Alabama's Vulnerable Child Compassion and Protection Act … states that "no person shall engage in or cause" the prescription or administration of puberty blocking medication or cross-sex hormone treatment to a minor "for the purpose of attempting to alter the appearance of or affirm the minor's perception of his or her gender or sex, if that appearance or perception is inconsistent with the minor's sex." Thus, section 4(a)(1)–(3) makes it a crime in the State of Alabama to take part in providing puberty blockers or cross-sex hormone treatment to a minor for purposes of treating a discordance between the minor's biological sex and sense of gender identity.
Shortly after the Act was signed into law, a group of transgender minors, their parents, and other concerned individuals challenged the Act's constitutionality, claiming that it violates the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment…. [W]e hold that the district court abused its discretion in issuing [a] preliminary injunction [against the Act] …. The plaintiffs have not presented any authority that supports the existence of a constitutional right to "treat [one's] children with transitioning medications subject to medically accepted standards." Nor have they shown that section 4(a)(1)–(3) classifies on the basis of sex or any other protected characteristic….
[T]he Supreme Court has instructed courts addressing substantive due process claims to "engage[] in a careful analysis of the history of the right at issue" and be "'reluctant' to recognize rights that are not mentioned in the Constitution." … [T]he district court determined that the "right to treat [one's] children with transitioning medications subject to medically accepted standards" is one of the substantive rights guaranteed by the Due Process Clause and that, therefore, section 4(a)(1)–(3) is subject to strict scrutiny. But the use of these medications in general—let alone for children—almost certainly is not "deeply rooted" in our nation's history and tradition….
Rather than perform any historical inquiry specifically tied to the particular alleged right at issue, the order on appeal instead surmises that the "right to treat [one's] children with transitioning medications subject to medically accepted standards" falls under the broader, recognized fundamental right to "make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of [one's] children." However, there is no binding authority that indicates that the general right to "make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of [one's] children" includes the right to give one's children puberty blockers and cross-sex hormone treatment.
The fundamental right to "make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of [one's] children," as it is recognized today, traces back in large part to Meyer v. Nebraska (1923). There, the Supreme Court held that a Nebraska law restricting the teaching of foreign languages violated the Due Process Clause. In doing so, the Court recognized that the "liberty" guaranteed by the Due Process Clause includes the right "to engage in any of the common occupations of life, to acquire useful knowledge, to marry, establish a home and bring up children, … and generally to enjoy those privileges long recognized at common law as essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness of free men."
The Supreme Court elaborated on the fundamental liberty of parents two years later in Pierce v. Society of the Sisters (1925). That case addressed Oregon's Compulsory Education Act of 1922, which mandated that parents send their school-aged children to public school (as opposed to private school). Citing its decision in Meyer, the Court concluded that the Oregon law violated the Due Process Clause on the basis that it "unreasonably interferes with the liberty of parents and guardians to direct the upbringing and education of children under their control."
Meyer and Pierce ushered in a line of Supreme Court decisions that recognized, and further defined the contours of, parents' liberty interest to control the upbringing of their children. The majority of those cases, however, pertain to issues of education, religion, or custody. The Supreme Court's most extensive discussion of parents' control over the medical treatment received by their children came in Parham v. J. R. (1979).
In Parham, a group of minors brought a Due Process challenge to Georgia's procedures for committing children to mental hospitals. At the time, Georgia law provided for the voluntary admission of children upon application by a parent or guardian. Thus, the question at issue was whether the minors had a procedural due process right to greater procedural safeguards, e.g., a judicial hearing, before their parents could commit them…. Parham was concerned about the procedures a state must afford a child prior to institutionalization when the parent believes such treatment—which is not only lawful but provided by the state itself—is necessary. Notably, Parham does not at all suggest that parents have a fundamental right to direct a particular medical treatment for their child that is prohibited by state law. Parham therefore offers no support for the Parent Plaintiffs' substantive due process claim….
[As to the Equal Protection Clause], a government policy that distinguishes on the basis of sex is permissible … "only if it satisfies intermediate scrutiny." … In this case, the district court first held that section 4(a)(1)–(3) of the Act classifies on the basis of gender nonconformity and therefore classifies on the basis of sex. In determining that section 4(a)(1)–(3) classifies on the basis of gender nonconformity, the district court reasoned that section 4(a)(1)–(3) "prohibits transgender minors—and only transgender minors—from taking transitioning medications due to their gender nonconformity." …
[W]e reject the view that section 4(a)(1)–(3) amounts to a sex-based classification subject to intermediate scrutiny. As mentioned, one of the Minor Plaintiffs' arguments is that section 4(a)(1)–(3) directly classifies on the basis of sex because it "uses explicitly sex-based terms to criminalize certain treatments based on a minor's 'sex.'" Of course, section 4(a)(1)–(3) discusses sex insofar as it generally addresses treatment for discordance between biological sex and gender identity, and insofar as it identifies the applicable cross-sex hormone(s) for each sex—estrogen for males and testosterone and other androgens for females. We nonetheless believe the statute does not discriminate based on sex for two reasons.
First, the statute does not establish an unequal regime for males and females. In the Supreme Court's leading precedent on gender-based intermediate scrutiny under the Equal Protection Clause, the Court held that heightened scrutiny applies to "official action that closes a door or denies opportunity to women (or to men)." Alabama's law does not distinguish between men and women in such a way. Instead, section 4(a)(1)–(3) establishes a rule that applies equally to both sexes: it restricts the prescription and administration of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormone treatment for purposes of treating discordance between biological sex and sense of gender identity for all minors.
Second, the statute refers to sex only because the medical procedures that it regulates—puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones as a treatment for gender dysphoria—are themselves sexbased. The Act regulates medical interventions to treat an incongruence between one's biological sex and one's perception of one's sex. The cross-sex hormone treatments for gender dysphoria are different for males and for females because of biological differences between males and females—females are given testosterone and males are given estrogen. With regards to puberty blockers, those medications inhibit and suppress the production of testosterone in males and estrogen in females. For that reason, it is difficult to imagine how a state might regulate the use of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for the relevant purposes in specific terms without referencing sex in some way….
The Minor Plaintiffs' other sex-based argument is that section 4(a)(1)–(3) indirectly classifies on the basis of sex by classifying on the basis of gender nonconformity…. This is the position that the district court adopted, citing Bostock …. Bostock dealt with Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, in the context of employment discrimination…. [T]he Court in Bostock relied exclusively on the specific text of Title VII. The Court "proceed[ed] on the assumption that 'sex' refer[s] only to biological distinctions between male and female." But the Court reasoned that the combined ordinary meaning of the words "because of," "otherwise discriminate against," and "individual" led to the conclusion that Title VII makes "[a]n individual's homosexuality or transgender status … not relevant to employment decisions."
The Equal Protection Clause contains none of the text that the Court interpreted in Bostock. It provides simply that "[n]o State shall … deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Because Bostock therefore concerned a different law (with materially different language) and a different factual context, it bears minimal relevance to the instant case….
To be sure, section 4(a)(1)–(3) restricts a specific course of medical treatment that, by the nature of things, only gender nonconforming individuals may receive. But just last year, the Supreme Court explained that "[t]he regulation of a medical procedure that only one sex can undergo does not trigger heightened constitutional scrutiny unless the regulation is a 'mere pretex[t] designed to effect an invidious discrimination against members of one sex or the other.'" Dobbs. By the same token, the regulation of a course of treatment that only gender nonconforming individuals can undergo would not trigger heightened scrutiny unless the regulation were a pretext for invidious discrimination against such individuals. And the district court did not find that Alabama's law was based on invidious discrimination.
We similarly reject the United States' view that section 4(a)(1)–(3) is subject to heightened scrutiny because it classifies on the basis of transgender status, separate from sex. As we recently explained, "we have grave 'doubt' that transgender persons constitute a quasi-suspect class," distinct from sex, under the Equal Protection Clause. Even if they did, for the reasons discussed with respect to gender nonconformity, section 4(a)(1)–(3)'s relationship to transgender status would not trigger heightened scrutiny. Chiefly, the regulation of a course of treatment that, by the nature of things, only transgender individuals would want to undergo would not trigger heightened scrutiny unless the regulation is a pretext for invidious discrimination against such individuals, and, here, the district court made no findings of such a pretext. For these reasons, we conclude that section 4(a)(1)–(3)'s relationship to transgender status does not warrant heightened scrutiny….
Judge Brasher concurred, elaborating further on why he thought the classification here wasn't subject to heightened scrutiny under the Equal Protection Clause, and would in any event pass such scrutiny.
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Got it. I'm sure MAGA country will be happy to learn that they have no constitutionally-protected right to decide not to vaccinate their kids, to send their kids to conversion therapy, to prevent their girls from accessing birth control pills, etc. Not in the Eleventh Circuit, at least.
There are dozens of states that ban compassionate orientation affirming care already though.
And if this court is correct, they are completely within their rights for doing so. Too bad, breeders!
You do believe a state can ban compassionate orientation affirming care though, right?
It doesn't make sense that this would make you so upset.
I believe a consistent rule should apply. Anti-vaxx parents shouldn't be able to invoke a fictitious "religious right" to exempt their kids from getting FDA-approved, effective vaccines - thereby putting their communities at greater risk of outbreaks - while regressive state legislatures are entitled to prohibit parents from obtaining gender affirming care for their kids, when it's medically recommended and professionally administered.
As a matter of first principles, I would say that the Constitution's protection of parental rights should cover decisions relating to their kids' medical care, and should give way only when we're talking about protecting kids from quack treatments and public health risks, like communicable diseases.
In other words your first principles would forbid bans on gender conversion treatments, allow for forced vaccinations, while allowing bans on orientation affirming care.
Neat first principles you have, they gerrymander right around your current desires.
If that's how my proposed principle would work, which I'm not taking for granted. If there is a scientifically-proven conversion therapy, or if gender-affirming therapy can be shown to be quackery, I'd follow where those findings lead.
Is there a reason why parents should be said to have a constitutional right to harm their children, or to harm others?
I think we should also have strong rights to exercise autonomy over our own bodies, including with respect to what medical treatments we can access, which should extend to minors, to at least some extent.
gender affirming care is quackery.
gender affirming care is destroying the natural biological development as a treatment for a mental illness. Think through the basic logic of destroying the normal natural biological process to do what - to embellish the afflicted's mental delusions.
The same would apply to any psychiatric drug.
Stating that a person with gender dysmorphia has a "mental delusion" does not imply any particular thing about how best to treat it. Do you expect a schizophrenic to rely only on talk therapy? If it is consistently shown that a person who has gender dysmorphia can achieve a pronounced improvement by simply living as the gender they identify as, wouldn't that be a perfectly logical treatment, as opposed to limiting them to talk therapy where they continue to struggle with this "delusion"?
Like - if there were a pill that a transgender person could take regularly, and thereby end their dysmorphic feelings - is there some reason you think that they wouldn't like access to that kind of thing? Or that I would want to limit access to it?
SimonP -
You seem to be intentionally misleading in your statements
I think everyone would be in favor of providing a drug that reduces the delusions vs the current trend of providing drugs that enhance the delusions.
note the distinction
simonp comment " If it is consistently shown that a person who has gender dysmorphia can achieve a pronounced improvement by simply living as the gender they identify as, wouldn’t that be a perfectly logical treatment,
You preface your question with the assumption that it improves the mental outlook of the patient. However, that is highly unlikely to be factually true. The survey's / studies showing improvement are pathetically weak with substantial problems in the methodology. Further, the treatment permanently FU's the biological functions. So the answer to you question is No!
Tom: It's awful easy to be right, when you reject all evidence that you're wrong!
SimonP 17 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Tom: It’s awful easy to be right, when you reject all evidence that you’re wrong!
SimonP makes that statement while he himself rejects evidence that shows simon is wrong.
Nice way of arguing
Tom: What evidence? You haven't presented a coherent counter-argument or even a bare assertion that gender-affirming care does more harm than good. Meanwhile, your formatting sucks. Why should I waste time trying to figure out what you mean, and then responding to your half-assed replies?
SimonP 6 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Tom: What evidence? You haven’t presented a coherent counter-argument or even a bare assertion that gender-affirming care does more harm than good.
SimonP
A) - Simon accuses me of not providing any evidence while at the same time Simon has not provided any actual evidence to support his position
B) - Simon ignores an understanding of basic biology to argue that gender affirming care does more good than harm.
Your vaccination example is regarding the government requiring a medical procedure rather than banning one as is the case in the Alabama law in question. The two cases seem far more different than similar.
Had this case been decided differently and the Eleventh Circuit includes a state that bans "conversion therapy", the decision may well have called into question the "conversion therapy" ban. So, perhaps, you should be happy that the court upheld the Alabama law in this case.
Okay, so you don't understand legal reasoning, then.
You sure showed him with that ad hominem! Got eem, and his argument is now invalid.
Not an ad hominem, either.
I can't be bothered to educate every retard who tries to make a point in response to me. But, sure: "The distinction you've drawn is not relevant to the question. If the Constitution does not protect a parent's right to access a particular course of medical treatment for their child, then it doesn't protect a parent's right not to cause their child to undergo a particular course of medical treatment. The parental right to direct the medical care of one's children is either protected under the Constitution, or it isn't. It's not coherent to assert that it could protect parents from compulsion, but not from prohibition, since every prohibition logically entails a compulsion (and vice versa)."
Why I would owe someone dangling snark over conversion therapy that degree of exercise, perhaps you could explain.
If you're concerned about access to medical treatment and therapies, including conversion therapy, perhaps this map should be informative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._jurisdictions_banning_conversion_therapy
That's about what you'd expect, isn't it? With a few exceptions, the states that ban conversion therapy are almost all left-wing ones. As banning it is politically driven, you'd expect nothing else.
True. But if your concerns are about "liberty" in being able to treat people how you think they should be, well....
Banning quackery doesn't present the same substantive liberty issues.
Banning "quackery"...
Now, it just depends on what you are considering "quackery" doesn't it?
If you like the type of procedure, then it isn't quackery, and banning it is an unjust imposition on your liberty.
If you don't like the type of procedure, then it is quackery, and in your words it "doesn’t present the same substantive liberty issues."
If your substantive liberty concerns hinge so heavily on your opinion of a procedure, then....perhaps you're just making a judgement based on the procedure, and not actually on substantive liberty
Now, it just depends on what you are considering “quackery” doesn’t it?
Why do you automatically attribute to me the view that "quackery" is just whatever I don't like?
I'm not a medical professional, so I don't know the best way to precisely define procedures that aren't proven to work, or proven to do more harm than good, or are predicated upon a flawed understanding of how bodies and minds work, or what have you. "Quackery" is a placeholder for a suitably objective and expert standard that would apply to procedures that are medically unproven, proven to be harmful, or dubious.
Conversion therapy usually doesn't work, usually isn't undertaken except under duress or extreme psychological pressure, usually proceeds by inflicting new traumas upon "patients," doesn't have a uniform "best practice" that's been studied and proven, etc. That's why I call it "quackery." If there were a version of conversion therapy that produced good outcomes for most people who undergo it, and if that were proven via rigorous studies, I would have no objection to it.
"I’m not a medical professional"
Yep. So, you're just relying on the experts you like best. Both sides have their experts.
Personally, here's my view. Both Gender transitions and conversion therapy use "counseling and talking" to initially convince a person that they are the preferred gender and/or sexual orientation that the child in question feels pressured to be by society and/or their parents. Both of them quickly transition to surgery and hormonal treatments that may render their "patients" infertile for life. There's little difference between the two types of therapy...it just depends which side of the coin you're on, trying to convert to a new gender or trying to stay the same gender/sexual orientation.
Because of that, I see both as very unwise for children to be engaging in. As a society we should try to prevent irreversible therapies that results in surgery or irreversible sterility to be undertaken. Once they hit 18...that's they own business. Before that, society should try ensure kids are able to make those irreversible choices when they are adults, and not have the choices made for them before they are emotionally and physically ready.
To pick one of them as "OK" but the other as "not"? That's just a socio-political preference.
"Both Gender transitions and conversion therapy use “counseling and talking” to initially convince a person that they are the preferred gender and/or sexual orientation that the child in question feels pressured to be by society and/or their parents. Both of them quickly transition to surgery and hormonal treatments that may render their “patients” infertile for life. "
The mind reels at the attempt to figure out what infertility causing drugs and surgery you'd use in the attempt to convince a man that he's a heterosexual man. I suppose there might have been something like that, many decades ago...
It's been well established that gender dysphoria almost always resolves one way or another by the time puberty is done. You probably end up heterosexual, maybe 'gay' or bisexual, but you end up knowing what you are. Biology produces clarity.
That's why there's such urgency to start the hormone treatments before puberty, I guess: To prevent the dysphoria from simply going away on its own without any lucrative treatment plan.
Removing healthy body parts is not a parental right in directing the medical care of one’s children. The issue is minors and/or their parents taking drastic life altering decisions for which time offers a better solution - DO NO HARM.
Except when it comes to male circumcision, I'm guessing.
I'm not going to debate people who strawman the issue by pretending that people are eager to chop off boys' penises. The "best practice," when it comes to gender affirming care for minors, starts with non-permanent steps, like talk therapy and living as one's self-identified gender or another. Surgeries are usually reserved for older teens, and undertaken only when medically necessary. Trans advocates understand that kids are kids, and they shouldn't undergo permanent procedures unless and until it becomes necessary to avoid worse alternative outcomes.
Also pedicure and manicure.
What you're saying here is that if the government can ban abortion it can compel abortion.¹ That does not in any way follow. Buck v. Bell notwithstanding, I don't think any American court, even post-Dobbs, would uphold forced abortions.
(Contrary to what you claim, they're not symmetric; every prohibition does not entail compulsion. (Unless you're just playing semantic word games, e.g., "a ban on abortion is a compulsion not to have an abortion."))
¹The fact that the discussion involves parental rights is just a red herring; the parental right to direct a child's medical care is not broader than the individual right to direct one's own medical care. That wouldn't make any sense.
Well, show your work. You might be factually correct that courts would be unlikely to uphold a compelled-teen-abortion law, but this doesn’t mean that it would be doctrinally coherent to do so on constitutional grounds, or actually consistent with Dobbs or how the Eleventh Circuit has applied Dobbs in this case.
As the internet sometimes says, technically correct is the best form of being correct.
"I can’t be bothered to educate every retard"
Try starting with just one. Yourself. *rimshot*
But no, your argument here is a joke.
What do you think of this map, regarding conversion therapy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._jurisdictions_banning_conversion_therapy
Why is it that you're okay when blue states ban conversion therapy, but not when red states ban this? Trying to talk a mentally ill child out of being mentally ill is at least worthwhile, even if it doesn't work, but cutting his wang off never is.
Are you people unable to see one another's comments? I cannot fathom why five different commenters felt the need to point out that some states have banned conversion therapy - and one, twice - without adding anything to the discussion besides that fact. Is this just a lazy attempt at harassment, or are you all genuinely just stupid?
Anyway, I'm not as ideologically committed on this issue as you are. If there were a version of conversion therapy that was medically proven to consistently improve people's lives, and if there were safeguards in place to ensure that minors who undergo it were doing so voluntarily and not under duress, then I wouldn't maintain an objection to it.
I am not, in other words, so ideologically committed to the view that "being gay is awesome!" that I would seek to ban a medically proven procedure that people want and would benefit from, but would potentially reduce the pool of gay people out there. That is the sort of thing you would do, and your politicians are doing.
"....send their kids to conversion therapy..."
Isn't "gender affirming care" conversion therapy?
Ah yes. The ruling upholds the basic conservative view that government and judges rather than parents and their medical advisors know what is best because having total govenrment ignoramuses make health care decisions is much better than having trained medical personnel do it. To paraphrase Gandhi, what do we think about having real conservatives in charge? Well we think that would be a good idea. Might wanna try it someday.
How many Democrat states ban compassionate orientation affirming care? Where are your complaints about those?
So you think parents should be able to allow their kids to amputate arms if they identify as The Fugitive. Or their feet if they identify as that South African runner.
Got it.
Have you considered there could be some ways to distinguish hormone treatments from dismemberment?
"Not being irreversible" isn't one of them, to be sure. That argument died years ago, though it still shambles about, zombie-like.
Depends on the treatment, of course. Don't be daft.
But I do notice you didn't actually engage with my question.
And, on it shambles.
What's to engage with? Obviously "dismemberment" is different from "drug treatment", or else we'd use the same words to talk about them.
What do you claim to be the salient difference? As I said, it's not whether the treatment is irreversible.
The Fugitive was looking for, and eventually found, the one-armed man; he himself had all of his limbs.
Great, now answer the intent of the question, or are you just naturally dimwitted? My mistake can be attributed to having seen the TV show a zillion years ago. Yours can be attributed to being a clever idiot who has no answer.
There was also a big movie about it when we were all adults.
I'm sad to see you think you know what everyone else has seen.
That would be stupid. The Fugitive was spent his time chasing the one-armed man. Identifying as The Fugitive means keeping all your limbs.
Those arch-conservatives who run Berkeley, CA banned ECT, a treatment by the medical community for depression, for years. They didn't change their minds; a court reversed the banned. https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/electroconvulsive-therapy/about/pac-20393894 . https://www.nytimes.com/1983/01/15/us/judge-voids-berkeley-ban-on-electroshock-therapy.html .
-dk
True, it is generally the case that parents have the right to make decisions concerning their children’s health and welfare. But it has long been accepted that governments can legitimately impose certain rules on the exercise of parental decision making: child labor laws limit parent’s economic decisions regarding their children; they can’t marry off their 13-14 year olds; they can’t supply them with cocaine and heroin; they can’t willfully or recklessly endanger their lives; they can’t leave children under a certain age alone at home unsupervised. Ask a CPS worker if you can teach a 10 year old ‘the birds and the bees’ by sitting them down in front of hardcore pornography. It seems it is well within a state’s authority to protect minor children from becoming victims of trendy displays of mental illness imposed by adults. Especially when such trendy displays of mental illness come with little understood yet permanent consequences just to please the in vogue ideology of adults.
well stated
Gender affirming care is the latest trendy treatment for a mental illness with very poor understanding of the permanent long term consequences. All of which destroy the natural biological process forever.
A difficulty here is that the trained medical professionals have been wrong plenty of times. Scientists for example were not only at the forefront of the eugenics movement a century ago, they sneered at objections to to it, which mostly came from religiously grounded arguments, as primitive superstition which they said shouldn’t be allowed to get in the way of scientific progress. In other words, they sneered at objections to eugenics in a manner very similar to your (and the Rev. Kirkland’s) sneering today. In the 1950s most scientists regarded environmentalists as luddites who were enemies of reason and progress. In the 19th century the newly minted theory of evolution was touted as proof of the validity of slavery and Jim Crow, much as it was later to be regarded as proof of the validity of eugenics. John Calhoun in particular portrayed slavery as a simple matter of reason and science vs. superstition. And he sneered at abolitionists using rhetoric you and the Rev. Kirkland would find very familiar.
Given all the things past apostles of science and reason sneered at that we today regard as actualky having been correct, scientists simply don’t have a good enough track record on social and moral matters to deserve always being trusted over any other source of ideas as a constitutional matter. Constitutionally, they need to argue their case in the marketplace of ideas just like anyone else.
The doctors might be right on this one. Perhaps they are. But at least for matters subject to rational basis analysis, the people and the several states have the right to base their decisions on other kinds of arguments if they want to.
Moreover the same kinds of extra-scientific moral arguments that were rational in opposing slavery and eugenics and in supporting environmental preservation when they were considered anti-science in the past, are also rational as a constitutional matter when they are considered anti-science today. They might turn out to be wrong on any given issue. They might well be wrong on this one. But given the track record, they turn out to be right often enough, and the scientists eventually come around often enough, that judges engaging in constitutional analysis are not entitled to simply sneer them away.
ReaderY comment
The doctors might be right on this one.
Best I can tell, there is only a small activist segment of the medical profession that believes that the current gender affirming care is a valid and appropriate treatment.
I deal with two endocronologists on a social level one of which who has a couple of patients that he treats that have gone through the gender mutilation. Both have commented that the permanent side effects are horrendous, quite the opposite of what is claimed by the advocates of gender affirming care.
"Best I can tell, there is only a small activist segment of the medical profession that believes that the current gender affirming care is a valid and appropriate treatment."
It's definitely an activist segment, but it's hard to tell how big or small it is because it completely dominates the medical establishment and creates an impression of pro-transitioning-minors consensus on the subject.
Look at the evidence submitted in this case - the plaintiffs (folks challenging the law) have these physicians with super-impressive credentials supporting the view that transitioning care for minors is essential, life-saving treatment. At the same time, the one expert the state got to testify in support of the law (opposing transitioning care for minors) is a psychologist and neuroscientist -- NOT a medical doctor. Think about that: in a major court case the State of Alabama couldn't find a *single M.D. anywhere* willing to testify against transitioning care for minors. As you point out, it's not because no doctors question the treatments. Many do. But they're unwilling to do so publicly on the record because they, for good reason, fear the professional consequences of doing that.
At the same time, you've got the plaintiffs' expert, who not only is a medical doctor but is the chair of pediatrics at a major hospital. He admits that there's no robust data such as controlled studies supporting transitioning care. But he insists that it's impossible to collect such data because the necessary studies would be "unethical." Why? Because you'd need to assemble a pool of gender-dysphoric youths to use as controls and then not transition them so you can compare the results with those that do transition. That would be unethical, he says, because you're denying the controls life-saving treatments. But how do we know the treatments are life-saving if there's no good data? Because a bunch of doctors say so. Which doctors? Why, the very ones responsible for prescribing and administering the treatments.
So, you've got this very novel, radical course of treatment - gender transitioning for minors. At the same time, you've got:
(1) a lack of robust data showing the treatment works;
(2) doctors saying it's impossible to get the data showing the treatment works because they're so sure the treatment does work that controlled trials are unethical;
(3) substantial private disagreement by many doctors that the treatment does in fact work; but
(4) a total unwillingness by any doctors to testify to their reservations publicly on the record.
Vast public agreement that a thing is true combined with a lack of robust data showing the thing is in fact true should be a red flag that one is in the presence of groupthink.
Is the court saying the EP clause does not automatically trigger intermediate scrutiny when a law treats an individual differently "because of" the individual's sex?
No, but they are saying the instant law does no such thing.
Under this court's reasoning, what are some examples of laws which treat an individual differently because of sex and trigger intermediate strict scrutiny, and how are those laws distinguished from the one at issue in this case?
Is cutting off one's genitals allowed for one sex and not the other?
Obviously something with an explicit sex-based classification. "Men are allowed to do X; women are not allowed to do X."
This one bans these treatments regardless of the sex of the patient. Boys and girls alike are forbidden from getting puberty blockers.
This law allows natal-sex boys to get testosterone, but not natal-sex girls.
True, but the text of the law bans puberty blockers only when they are used to affirm a gender identity that does not match one’s natal sex. Thus, but-for being a natal-sex girl, a transgender boy could get puberty blockers and thus is being treated differently because of their sex.
Let’s say the government bans men and women alike from any expression that affirms a gender identity that does not match their natal sex. Does that ban also not trigger intermediate scrutiny according to this court’s logic even though an individual is treated differently because of their sex.
"This law allows natal-sex boys to get testosterone, but not natal-sex girls."
But not for the purpose of trying to change your gender/sex.
That old "but for" again, it can be stretched beyond reason as centuries of legal precedent shows. I disagree with Bostock. But even so, I don't think you can stretch it that far here. Either sex may be able to get puberty blockers for some other valid medical purpose, but neither can for the purpose of trying to change your gender/sex.
"Natal-sex" is a neat new Orwellianism I hadn't seen yet.
Firstly, either sex cannot get testosterone. That's a facial sex-based classification.
Secondly as I stated below, if the but-for standard applies, then restricting the use of puberty blockers for valid medical purposes should be subject to intermediate scrutiny.
Thirdly, my problem with the ruling is the court dismissed the Bostock but-for standard with very little supporting analysis. It struck me as very close to ipse dixit.
Fourthly, I use natal-sex only to make it clear I am referring to traditional biological distinctions between men and women. I have in the past also used the term biomarker sex.
I agree the quoted part was pretty unimpressive, just saying "it's different," but what about the point that Bostock was about Title VII, not EP? Could these be vastly different things in their original meaning? Is there a reason to think they are the same or precedent holding such?
Either sex can get hormone replacement therapy, so there's no discrimination. It doesn't matter that in some cases, hormone replacement therapy means testosterone and in others, estrogen. Different types of cancer require different types of treatment, too, but that doesn't mean they're not all cancer treatments. I mean that just as a general point about the level of generality that applies to a classification.
But to take the thought further, some of those differences involve sex as well, like reproductive system cancers, breast cancer. Same goes for various medical issues. So I don't think there's discrimination.
It's not true that a transgender "male" could get testosterone "but for" the fact that they are female. They would need to have a hormone deficiency. Same sort of thing with puberty blockers.
I'm open to arguments on both sides, but not to the lack of reasoning in this decision.
I think that is nonsense.
The text of the challenged law does not mention that restriction.
"The text of the challenged law does not mention that restriction."
The text of the challenged law doesn't mention hormone replacement therapy at all! I assume. It has nothing to do with it.
You are the one bringing it up, and saying that the law is discriminatory because a male can get testosterone as part of hormone replacement therapy, while a female can't get testosterone as part of the entirely different procedure/topic of transitioning. I'm just pointing out that the facts don't satisfy the "but for" test you are positing in your argument that the law is discriminatory as applied, if you will.
You brought up hormone deficiency.
The law bans testosterone use on a minor "for the purpose of attempting to alter the appearance of or affirm the minor's perception of his or her gender or sex, if that appearance or perception is inconsistent with the minor's sex.
By implication It permits testosterone use on a minor "for the purpose of attempting to alter the appearance of or affirm the minor's perception of his or her gender or sex, if that appearance or perception is consistent with the minor's sex.
But for being a girl, a person could get testosterone to alter their appearance or affirm their gender identity.
“You brought up hormone deficiency.”
The way I see it, you brought it up when you said “this law allows boys to get testosterone..” As far as I know the only medical treatment that involves testosterone (which requires a prescription) is for some kind of hormone deficiency.
“By implication It permits . . . ”
Not prohibiting something is not the same as permitting it. A law against murder doesn’t by implication permit robbery. A constitutional amendment barring laws that infringe on certain enumerated rights doesn’t by implication permit the exercise of unenumerated powers or the infringement of unenumerated rights.
“But for being a girl, a person could get testosterone to alter their appearance or affirm their gender identity.”
As a factual matter, no they could not. Not legally. You can only get testosterone for treating a hormone deficiency.
By the way, based on a quick look at the fuller text of the law, it looks like we both underestimated the extent to which this law does seek to distinguish transgender procedures from these other uses.
http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/alison/searchableinstruments/2022RS/bills/SB184.htm
Seems like it does mention hormone deficiency, after all.
With all of that being said, I admit that the text of the law at least makes a distinction based on sex in some sense. After all the word “sex” is in there. Every word, to the extent it can be defined, is a distinction from all other concepts referred to by all other words. I suppose, in order to meet some utmost ideal of sex-blindness, every law would have to pretend that the stark biological fact of sex is false or nonexistent. That would seem quite dangerous when it comes to medical care since there are such vast biological differences as I described above. And in any event is not required by the Constitution in my view.
“[E]ither sex cannot get testosterone. That’s a facial sex-based classification.”
This ignores the purpose of the law, which is to ban treatments on minors of either sex that are done for the purpose of facilitating gender transition. Giving a boy testosterone is legal because *it doesn’t facilitate gender transition*.
“[B]ut-for being a natal-sex girl, a transgender boy could get puberty blockers and thus is being treated differently because of their sex.”
I’m totally confused as to what this sentence means. I think maybe you mean to say “cross-sex hormones,” not “puberty blockers.” If that’s the case, then you’re mistaken because “but for being a natal-sex girl” a transgender boy could not get cross-sex hormones. He could possibly get testosterone, but if he were male it wouldn’t be a cross- sex hormone to him.
The purpose of the law is what might satisfy intermediate scrutiny, but ought to play no part in whether there is sex discrimination.
I meant puberty blockers. The challenged law only bans puberty blockers for treating gender dysphoria.
The law you propose would be subject to strict scrutiny as an abridgment of speech under the First Amendment - which it would fail. It would also be unconstitutionally vague. I mean, what's a male/female gender expression? Would a woman be prohibited from playing fantasy baseball? Would a man who just got home from a date be prohibited from calling a friend, recounting every minute detail of what transpired, and brainstorming about what those details "meant"?
"Because of their sex" is not in the 14th amendment, the way it is in Title VII. That law does not treat men worse than women, or vice versa. It would be a violation of free speech, perhaps, but not an equal protection issue.
And thus, you are arguing being treated differently because of your sex does not suffice to trigger intermediate scrutiny. Maybe that’s right, but the ipse dixit from this decision strikes me as very weak.
There is no possible discrimination on the basis of sex if the law bans medically unnecessary hormone treatments for minors regardless of sex.
I can see where medical necessity is part of the analysis after the level of scrutiny is determined. But, I don't see why medical necessity plays any role in determining whether there is sex discrimination.
I think that's right. The court in this case agrees - it says the fact that some "critical mass of doctors" support a treatment has nothing to do with the level of scrutiny applied.
The Eleventh Circuit serves mostly to deflect some of the derision from the Fifth Circuit among people who value education, modernity, inclusiveness, science, reason, and progress.
Do you think subsidizing SimonP's lifestyle so that he can bareback other men is "progress?"
But the use of these medications in general—let alone for children—almost certainly is not "deeply rooted" in our nation's history and tradition….
Funny how with guns it's always the restriction that needs to be deeply rooted, but when it comes to medical treatment for transgender children it's the right that needs to be deeply rooted in US traditions.
It's almost as if "originalism" can be used to reach almost any conclusion you want.
Well where’s the “The Peoples right to choose whatever medical enhancements they want shall not be infringed” clause in the constitution?
But somehow we forget “well regulated militia” in that don’t we?
Face it- “originalists” do the same bullshit activism (like in DC v Heller) that anyone else does to reach any conclusion they want.
You have no principles- you just want your way. At least be honest about it.
Try reading the 14th amendment at some point too.
The stupidity of that "gotcha" has been explained so many times anybody who uses it just doesn't care how stupid they sound.
Not this again . . .
That's a bingo!
Thomas's originalism is doctrinally coherent insofar as jurists are consistently directed to adjust the level of abstraction to suit the desired result. Here, you specifically focus not on whether we're talking about a general parental right to direct a child's medical care, but on whether there is a historically-rooted right to obtain gender-affirming care. Similarly, when it comes to gun restrictions, you focus not on historical examples that might have generally restricted access or carrying of firearms, but on specific use-cases: "Well, there is no evidence that 19th century legislators sought to ban the carrying of firearms in shopping malls, so such a restriction is not consistent with the Second Amendment."
The court did examine the general parental right to direct a child's medical care and found it did not extend to a parent's right to have affirmative access to any treatment desired for their children. And as the court points out, such a right does not even exist for adults generally, so how could it exist for parents specifically?
Deleting, Kazinski already made my point.
"It’s almost as if “originalism” can be used to reach almost any conclusion you want."
So you admit it cannot be used to reach any conclusion you want?
And you would prefer a theory that could be so used?
I'm going on record as opposing at least one part of the law:
"for the purpose of attempting to alter the appearance of or affirm the minor's perception of his or her gender or sex, if that appearance or perception is inconsistent with the minor's sex."
Correcting unnatural hormone deficiencies are fine, but I think its more consistent to forbid 12 year old girls taking hormones because they think their breasts aren't big enough , and 12 year old boys taking steroids to bulk up for football. And better for the kids, I was a scrawny pencil necked geek until I was 18 or 19, everyone else should have the same character enhancing experience.
Are those other examples considered medically appropriate or legal now? (I believe they're already banned.)
The current practices we're discussing never would have tolerated, just a few years ago. So it's not like you can categorically rule out, a decade from now, the new obsession being allowing boys who 'identify as' He Man, Master of the Universe, being prescribed anabolic steroids at the age of 12.
Kazinski comment - "Correcting unnatural hormone deficiencies are fine, "
concur
Kaz makes a valid point -
Mental illnesses are often caused by some form of chemical and/or hormonal imbalance. The logical medical treatment would be to correct for that imbalance (granted finding the actual cause is difficult). The advocates for gender affirming instead of trying to correct the imbalance advocate for doubling down on the imbalance and enchancing the delusions suffering by the mentally ill.
It's cute how you think you've discovered the cure for gender dysphoria.
In reply - I made no statement as what the actual cure would be - only noting that the logical step would be to find the cause (chemical or hormonal imbalance be the likely cause) with the treatment that brings what ever is out of balance back into balance. Insted of the gender affirming advocates promoting exaberating the imbalance along with mutilation.
Or perhaps we need to adjust the theory that being transgender is an illness in light of the data that hundreds of thousands of Americans have gender dysphoria and the most effective treatment is gender affirming care? You instead dismiss the data and assume there will be other data to support your theory.
Josh
As others have noted, the diagnosis has become quite trendy. Ask your self - is gender affirming really effective or is there euphoria experienced by those suffering the mental illness because the physcologists and other advocates are playing along with their illness?
the brain is still telling the body to function based on the biological sex, not the mental gender sex. The plumbing remains the same based on the biological sex with the exception that the outside faucets have been changed. Based on my discussions with endocronologists that I deal with and who treat actual patients, the treatment creates long term problems since the body can no longer function properly.
Research says it's effective. You are ignoring the data.
Josh -
perhaps you should develop better analytical skills before you accept the conclusions from various research
Notable problems with those studies
A) very short study periods, most less than 2 years. Far too short to have any statistical significance
B) Low participiation rates. Many of those studies have 50% or less participation. That is major problem with that subset of the population. Due to type illness, they need to extensive followup. losing track of patients is a problem
C) those patients which do get accounted for are under current pyschiatric care, as such, more likely to have positive survey answer vs patients that are not undergoing current care.
D) Lots of known developmental problems when puberty is artificially delayed. Lots of unknown long term problems when puberty is delayed.
In summary, those positive results surverys are weak. I would expect someone such as yourself to have better grasp on recognizing the deficiencies in those surveys.
In addition to the problems you cite, surveys like these typically track youths who want gender-affirming care and ask them to rate their mental health and well-being after receiving gender-affirming care. There are obvious limits to that approach. If you gave children who wanted candy a survey and asked them to rate their mental health and well-being after receiving candy, most would likely report it had improved as well. Doesn't mean that the best thing for kids' mental health is candy.
Savage - you comments are valid
The flaws and deficiencies in those pro gender affirming studies are quite apparent, though disappointing that the obvious problems are glossed over in defense of the current fad gender affirming treatment
Of course you think they are weak. You've made up your mind no matter what. Here are some more studies, including a few that reach the opposite conclusion.
Josh
I think those studies are weak because of the methodology is weak . Both I and Savage pointed out the flaws and weaknesses of those surveys, yet your science background is insufficiently developed to recognize obvious flaws. Or perhaps you are too invested in woke science to develop a basic understanding of biology and thus are easily influenced by agenda driven studies
I just noticed my link to the other studies wasn't in my prior post. Note these studies aren't limited to kids.
As to Tom's specific criticisms. These are peer reviewed and thus the onus is on you to show they are flawed (as a group!):
1) What is the follow-up period for each study? How many are too short?
2) What is the participation rate in each study? How many are not enough? Plus, participation rate issues are not a concern when study after study reaches the same conclusion unless there is a consistent bias (which you have to provide evidence for) that people with good outcomes are more likely to participate.
3) Assuming you are correct, you only showed that ongoing psychiatric care is a good thing.
4) The downsides are part of the studies (participants weigh the good and bad). As to the longer term, that's a restatement of your first criticism.
I appreciate you linking to the data. Cards on the table, yes, I am biased. I believe transitioning should not be done on anyone younger than 25. It's a decision with massive, lifelong impacts on you and your loved ones. A child cannot make the decision because children can't weigh consequences - they understand what they want but not the costs of getting what they want. The decision cannot be delegated to doctors or parents either. It should be made by the individual - as an adult. I think it's the height of medical hubris for doctors to claim they can identify whether transitioning is going to be the right choice for a particular child in ten, fifteen, twenty years. They have no idea.
Regarding the studies you provided, from what I see overall some of them show evidence of short-term mental health benefits but it's disingenuous for physicians to claim the evidence is so compelling and unequivocal it's not "ethical" to do randomized controlled studies comparing psychotherapy plus transitioning versus psychotherapy alone. That's just flat-out false. The evidence is suggestive but not clear-cut. 'We don't want to do controlled studies because it's politically inadvisable' isn't the same thing as 'it's not ethical to do the studies.'
Regarding specific issues with the studies, in addition to what Tom flagged:
- There's been a recent unexplained spike in children and adolescents presenting with gender dysphoria. Accordingly, studies of data more than four or so years old are of questionable value because this massively expanded population may have different traits than those studied in the past.
- These are life-altering procedures that in many cases produce permanent physiological changes. Survey data for a year or two tells you little or nothing about whether the treatment will prove to be beneficial overall. A temporary blip in positive affect doesn't justify a permanent life-altering decision.
I'm guessing you meant 15, not 25? Tom's on record as believing gender-affirming care is quackery (for kids or adults) because biology determines sex and gender identity is crap (a delusion when gender identity does not match sex). Even if these studies have some flaws, that's nonsense. These studies are plenty strong to support the notion that gender identity is for real.
Of course, great care should be exercised before medical interventions are introduced for gender dysphoria, particularly for kids. However, that care ought not include (as a matter of policy, and perhaps as a matter of law per intermediate scrutiny) a categorical ban. Additionally, gender-affirming care includes non-medical steps such as how you present yourself, what bathroom you use and how people address you. Unless you believe as Tom does, that should be a no brainer.
As to your other criticisms, we should always keep our eyes on, with an open mind, new studies and more data to guide us.
Josh R 32 mins ago I’m guessing you meant 15, not 25? Tom’s on record as believing gender-affirming care is quackery (for kids or adults) because biology determines sex and gender identity is crap (a delusion when gender identity does not match sex). ”
Josh – I am on record of stating that the gender identity can not be resolved via the current trendy medical treatment which is quackery. Gender identity of the opposite sex is a mental disorder that can not and never will be cured via the current medical practice of puberty blockers, surgery, etc which you embrace because it is a mental health issue, not a biological issue.
You refer back to the “peer reviewed ” studies that show the positive effect on the mental health. Yet you fail to notice the multitude of red flags in those studies. Both Savage and I have pointed out some of the more common deficiencies in those studies. You should be fully aware of the frequency of academic fraud level studies that are “peer reviewed”
I don't mean 15. I mean 25. I said an adult should make the decision, 15 is a child.
The studies you linked talk about mental health outcomes; they do not talk about whether gender identity is "for real." I also have no idea what is means to say gender identity is "for real". Gender identity is a catchall term for an individual's subjective experience of gender. In other words, it's a feeling. Feelings aren't "real," nor are they "delusions." Beliefs can be delusional but feelings are just feelings.
Perhaps by "real" you mean "permanent"? One of plaintiff's experts in the case called it "hardwired," which implies that view. But that's not the current position of most trans rights activists. Instead, they claim that gender identity is the *opposite* of permanent - they say it is 'open' and 'fluid,' with people able to identify as one thing one day and another the next.
So, gender identity isn't "real" in the sense of being physically real because feelings aren't physically real. And, it isn't real in the sense of being permanent because it's fluid and changeable for many people. In what sense, then, is it "real"?
25 seems too old. You can consent to any other medical procedure at 18.
By “real” I mean it’s a largely (but not completely) immutable, subjectively-reported trait (similar to sexual orientation). How else can you explain the results of the studies (assuming they are legit)?
Regarding age - the issue is standard of care, not capacity. Just because I want and can consent to a procedure doesn’t mean doctors should or will perform it. I think the standard of care should be 25 is the cut-off except perhaps in rare extreme cases.
Regarding the studies, I have no reason to think the data isn’t legit but it’s not as compelling as you make out. They don’t show long-term outcomes. That’s not the fault of the authors because these are novel procedures for the most part, but it’s still a limitation. They’re generally survey-based and in many cases rely on subjective self-reporting rather than objective metrics which limits their value. They’re generally small. There are a lot of unexplained drop-outs. And, as you concede, the results aren’t all good news for transitioning care – some support short-term mental health benefits but some show small benefits, some show benefits only for certain types of patients, and some show no benefits.
That said: let’s assume the date support there being some apparent mental health benefits to transitioning care. How can one explain that other than the patients benefiting from being allowed to express their “true” gender identities? Lot of ways. Here are a few, none of which are exclusive of the others:
- In the case of female-to-male transitions, exogenous testosterone can temporarily boost mood. Perceived improvements in mental health may be the mood-altering effects of testosterone. Those effects recede over time.
- Many patients may be experiencing benefits primarily from psychotherapy.
- Many youths diagnosed with gender dysphoria are lonely and isolated. Transitioning not only gives them lots of additional attention and interaction, it brings them into a community of people who share a distinctive trait and provides a sense of belonging. That may improve mental health, but it could be provided in ways other than transitioning care.
- More negatively, transitioning may provide kids who are hurting with false hope. They may think: “Now I understand why I’ve been feeling so bad. I’ve been living a life that doesn’t reflect my true self. I finally understand myself. Once I fully transition, the pain I’ve been feeling will go away forever.” But when the pain doesn’t go away a sense of disappointment and disillusionment may kick in later – you’d need longer term data to know that risk.
Savage -
you are doing a good job articulating many of the problems with those surveys
a) very short follow period , many less than 2 years , very few response rates after period of 5 years. Therefore capturing responses while still under heavy psychiactric help.
b) very low response rates in a very small subset of the population that requires constant medical care and mental health care. The lack of response indicates that the clinic have lost track of a patient that requires constant monitoring.
Its worse than asking how you like working for company x, but only include the employees that still work there and exclude all the former employees.
Your alternate explanations strike me as lame. If you were correct, we would see evidence of therapies that do not affirm one’s gender identity working. We do not.
I challenge you the same way I challenged Tom (for which he did not reply): provide for each study the follow-up period and the participation rate. Merely claiming the numbers are low is not enough.
To paraphrase your earlier retort to Tom - of course you think my alternate explanations are "lame." We're on opposite sides of a culture war issue 🙂
In response to your challenge, of the five studies you linked containing data after 2019 (so including the current spike in gender dysphoric youth) the results are:
2019 Allen et al – Surveyed 47 transgendered adolescents twice, before and after receiving gender-transitioning hormones. Surveys were approximately a year apart. Found mental health improvements. Patients also received psychotherapy. No info on number of drop-outs.
2020 Kaltiala et al – retrospective chart review of 52 adolescents during the “real-life” (post-treatment) phase of gender reassignment. Concluded that gender reassignment did not improve real-life functioning. Those who were functioning at a high level continued to do so; those who were struggling in school and relationships continued to struggle. No info on drop-outs or duration of study.
2020 – Lara et all – Surveyed 23 adolescents who received transitioning hormones and 30 cis-gender controls twice, one year apart. Found mental health improvements. No info on drop-outs. Patients also received psychotherapy.
2020 – Carmichael et al. UK study of adolescents receiving puberty blockers. Surveyed after 12, 24, and 36 months of treatment (so 3 years total). No change in mental health measures. Number of participants declined from 44 at the start to 14 at the end; reason for decline is not stated.
2021 – Grannis et al. One-shot survey comparing mental health measures for 23 girls at a gender clinic who were receiving testosterone with 19 who were not. The ones receiving testosterone reported less anxiety, depression, and body image problems (but see above – testosterone can boost mood).
So, of the five studies with the most recent data, three show improvement and two don’t. Of the three that do, potential confounding variables include psychotherapy and the pharmacological effects of testosterone. None are randomized controlled trials. I’d call those results mixed at best.
I would call them consistent with the dozens of earlier studies. Again, if psychotherapy were a confounding variable we would see other studies that show improvement under psychotherapy without gender-affirming care. We don't. I find the theory that good results are due to the pharmacological effects of testosterone laughable.
It's time for Occam's razor. The data are strong enough to destroy the nonsense that Tom peddles.
Josh - As savage points out, those studies are at best mixed results with the three positive studies having confounding varibles which are juicing the results of those three .
As savage also points out , no info on drop out / participation rates, Short term follow up periods
Those studies confirm the very criticisms I made while highlighting the weakness of those studies.
"It’s time for Occam’s razor. The data are strong enough to destroy the nonsense that Tom peddles."
Perhaps if you ignore the data that doesn't support your view. But what about all the data showing that the vast majority of gender dysphoric children see their cases resolve by adulthood without transitioning? Links at the bottom. To summarize:
- About 80% of gender-dysphoric children see their dysphoria resolve if they are allowed to naturally undergo puberty.
- A large majority of gender-dysphoric children will be same-sex attracted.
- Unlike gender-dysphoria, same-sex attraction does not desist after puberty.
- The minority of gender-dysphoric children whose dysphoria does not resolve after puberty tend to remain gender-dysphoric.
So, what this means is that most children and adolescents who present with gender dysphoria would NOT end up being transgender without medical intervention. They'd end up being gay.
It also means that equating gender dysphoria with same-sex attraction is false. They are NOT both 'mostly immutable' traits. Children usually grow out of gender dysphoria. They don't grow out of same-sex attraction.
Given that most gender-dysphoric kids are going to end up being cisgendered gay adults if they're not transitioned prematurely, the better approach is to wait and see and provide those who need it with transitioning care *when they are adults*. It's not to short-circuit kids' natural development by putting them on puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones while they're still working out their own identities.
https://www.aerzteblatt.de/int/archive/article/62554
http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html
Sex change drugs are totes reversible dudes! Thats why it must be done now now NOW!
"Because Bostock therefore concerned a different law (with materially different language) and a different factual context, it bears minimal relevance to the instant case…."
Which is now how precedent is supposed to work.
It has always worked like that. Precedents are distinguished all the time. Bostock was private employment and discrimination by non-conformance with gender stereotypes, this is government regulation of a medical procedure that discriminates by age.
Others have commented that the effort to distinguish Bostock was perfunctory. Likely the court of appeals disagreed with the lower court's holding in that case but didn't want to directly disapprove it so it just said 'eh, that's a different case that's different and its reasoning doesn't apply because reasons.'
Big surprise that we have a lot of "libertarians" here that are all for government getting in between patients and their doctors.
If you want liberty, you'd get the government out of the way of private medical decisions.
I think a big part of libertarianism is recognizing the individual capacity of adults to make decisions that are best for them, not children, and in this case, it's children self-diagnosing themselves (there is no means of diagnosis without self-reporting) with a condition that's treated through potentially permanent and serious body changes. The so-called "medical science" in this area has always been exceedingly low quality, and the field is ripe for even good-intentioned abuse, not to mention how lucrative gender treatment has become.
The self-diagnosis nature of this has always confused me on a philosophical level. What the heck does it mean to say that you feel like you're a woman? It's trivially true if you ARE a woman, after all: You feel like you feel, and as you're a women, that's how a woman feels.
If you're actually a guy? What the hell would you know about the internal experience of a woman, to think that yours is the same?
It's like somebody who isn't color blind, but they adamantly insist that when they look at something people call "red", they're actually experiencing "green". And they demand ocular surgery to fix that!
The self-diagnosis nature of this has always confused me on a philosophical level.
Indeed you are confused.
What the heck does it mean to say that you feel like you’re a woman?
It means the same thing me (and presumably you) mean when we say we feel like we're men. The difference is our body matches that feeling.
It’s trivially true if you ARE a woman, after all: You feel like you feel, and as you’re a women, that’s how a woman feels.
Unless you have gender dysphoria, in which case that "woman" actually feels like she's a man trapped in a woman's body.
If you’re actually a guy? What the hell would you know about the internal experience of a woman, to think that yours is the same?
Can you prove that your internal experience of feeling like a guy matches what other men feel? Does your inability to prove that invalidate your feeling of being a guy?
Whether or not their internal experience matches that of other women is irrelevant to me.
They think they're women (or men) and when they're allowed medical treatment to bring their physical body into closer alignment with their identity they live happier more fulfilling lives.
I don't see why it's your business to stop them.
I don't know what you mean. I've never felt like a man or a woman, just a person. Although right-handed I've never felt right-handed, nor imagined myself to be left-handed.
So if a mad scientist took out your brain and dropped it into a clone of your current body (with Y changed to X) you'd have no issue?
That's a bizarre hypothetical that doesn't really hide how you cannot describe what "feeling like" a man or woman means. You're just assuming these concepts exist because people have told you they exist, but you don't really understand them.
That’s a bizarre hypothetical
Indeed, what does a hypothetical about being put in a body with a different gender have to do with a discussion of transgender issues?
that doesn’t really hide how you cannot describe what “feeling like” a man or woman means. You’re just assuming these concepts exist because people have told you they exist, but you don’t really understand them.
I honestly don't get the argument you and Brett are trying to make. That our brains are genderless and no one feels attachment to their particular gender?
Yes and yes. Individual brains are not gendered. You can look at a thousand brains and find some characteristics roughly corresponding with sex, but there is no exclusively male or female brain. If you think there is, ask yourself why gender dysphoria isn't being diagnosed with brain scans.
People do not feel attachment to gender. They feel attachment to their bodies. I do not see how one can have an attachment to something they never had, so I don't get what this has to do with gender dysphoria.
If you think there is, ask yourself why gender dysphoria isn’t being diagnosed with brain scans.
Thank you for stating a testable hypothesis.
The fact that gender dysphoria IS detectable with brain scans does seem to indicate that brains are gendered to some degree, and it's something more substantial than a "mental illness".
No, this is a fundamental point anybody who studied philosophy and didn't immediately memory hole everything after getting the credit would pick up on. The red/green thing is common fodder in philosophy courses.
A man has no way of knowing what the internal experience of a woman is, and visa versa. I've never been a woman, I'll never be a woman. I've never even been a different man! I have no referents.
So, how the hell do I know that this feeling I'm 'identifying' as "feeling like a woman" isn't, in fact, a perfectly normal example of feeling like a man? How do I know that the guy walking by me on the sidewalk, looking like a perfectly ordinary guy, doesn't feel the same occasionally?
Going through puberty is a confusing time, your body and your brain are going through serious changes, as you go from nearly genderless to having a defined gender, as your secondary sexual characteristics show up in full force. It's something you've never experienced before, of course you're confused.
That confusion is being enhanced and exploited these days...
So you've shown that a man with gender dysphoria may not feel they're a woman in the same way as other women do on a philosophical level.
An argument that Jacob Grimes inadvertently undercut when he inadvertently alerted me to the fact that the brain transgender women do in fact look closer to those of cisgendered women under a brain scan.
But lets ignore the scientific evidence against your position and take your philosophical claims at face value.
So what?
Is their feeling of being a woman sincere? It would seem so.
Is their feeling of being a woman a persistent condition? More caution is required with children, but typically yes.
Will puberty blockers (which are very reversible) allow them to defer the effects of puberty until they are even more confident in their gender identity and how they want to deal with it? Yes.
So what's your problem then?
I agree with this take. To me, "gender identity" is really just a loose, catchall term for whichever way one subjectively experiences gender. But there's no reason to think that there's this specific feeling of "gender identity" -- a feeling of having "I AM MAN" or "I AM WOMAN" hardwired into your psyche.
Gender dysphoria - that, I get. 'A feeling of severe emotional distress localized in a sense that one's gender does not reflect how one wishes to be and/or wishes to be perceived as being.' Fine, that seems clear enough. But gender identity? It's really unconvincing to claim that everyone holds this deep-set "MAN-ish" or "WOMAN-ish" feeling when most people have never even thought of such a thing.
I don't care what doctors do to adults. Even libertarians believe that protecting children from abusive parents is within the government's purview.
And when both the child who would get the treatment, the parents of the child, the doctor who would administer it, and the medical establishment who investigated it are all in favour of administering the treatment and believe it's necessary to prevent future adverse outcomes.
You still think the "libertarian" thing to do is prevent that treatment because you morally disapprove of it?
"the medical establishment who investigated it are all in favour of administering the treatment"
You could say "the medical establishment that makes big bucks with procedures that can result in sterility and incontinence."
Wetting your pants every day from age 15 on is a small price to pay for keeping a reliable Dem donor/voter demographic flush.
So we're gone onto poorly thought out conspiracy theories now?
It is not a conspiracy theory to notice that professional organizations are in the business of promoting business opportunities for their members. Medical professional organizations are no different in that respect.
As an example, the medical establishment used to think frontal lobotomies were the cat's meow.