The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Prof. Michael McConnell, Responding About the Fourteenth Amendment, "Insurrection," and Trump
"We must not forget that we are talking about empowering partisan politicians such as state Secretaries of State to disqualify their political opponents from the ballot, depriving voters of the ability to elect candidates of their choice. If abused, this is profoundly anti-democratic."
I'm delighted to be able to pass along this response by Prof. Michael McConnell (Stanford Law School) to a couple of items that were posted on the blog in the last few days:
There is a recent flurry of interest in Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment, which bars any person who has "engaged in" an "insurrection or rebellion" (after having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution) from holding state or federal office. This provision has played no significant role in American governance since 1872 and was regarded by many scholars as moribund. The revival of interest in Section 3 is sparked by scholarship by several scholars with impeccable conservative credentials, including my friends Will Baude, Michael Paulsen, and Steve Calabresi. See and Their work advocates a "broad, sweeping" interpretation of the disqualification provision, and claims that under Section 3, Donald Trump is ineligible to run for a second term, without any further process, hearings, or adjudications. Already it has drawn the attention of the New York Times, and presumably will fuel efforts to keep Trump off the ballot.
I have no truck with Trump, for whom I have low regard. But in the haste to disqualify Trump, we should be wary of too loose an interpretation of Section 3.
We must not forget that we are talking about empowering partisan politicians such as state Secretaries of State to disqualify their political opponents from the ballot, depriving voters of the ability to elect candidates of their choice. If abused, this is profoundly anti-democratic. "The right to vote freely for the candidate of one's choice is of the essence of a democratic society, and any restrictions on that right strike at the heart of representative government." Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533, 555 (1964). The broader and more nebulous the definition of engaging in insurrection, and the fewer the procedural safeguards, the greater the danger.
Section 3 speaks of "insurrection" and "rebellion." These are demanding terms, connoting only the most serious of uprisings against the government, such as the Whisky Rebellion and the Civil War. The terms of Section 3 should not be defined down to include mere riots or civil disturbances, which are common in United States history. Many of these riots impede the lawful operations of government, and exceed the power of normal law enforcement to control. Are they insurrections or rebellions, within the meaning of Section 3?
I have not done the historical work to speak with confidence, but I would hazard the suggestion that a riot is the use of violence to express anger or to attempt to coerce the government to take certain actions, while insurrections and rebellions are the use of violence, usually on a larger scale, to overthrow the government or prevent it from being able to govern.
Moreover, Section 3 uses the verb "engage in," which connotes active involvement and not mere support or assistance. Significantly, Section 3 also uses the term "give aid and comfort to"—but this is reserved for giving aid and comfort to the "enemies" of the United States, which has historically meant enemies in war. Bas v. Tingy (1800). That Section 3 uses both terms, with different referents, strongly suggests that "engage in" means more than just give "aid and comfort" to an insurrection. Baude and Paulsen maintain that Section 3 "covers a broad range of conduct against the authority of the constitutional order, including many instances of indirect participation or support." They explicitly state that Section 3 trumps the First Amendment. The terms "broad range of conduct" and "indirect support" are ominous, especially since they also say that Section 3 trumps the First Amendment and does not require due process. What could go wrong?
Putting together my friends' broad definitions of "insurrection" and "engage," and lack of concern about enforcement procedure, I worry that this approach could empower partisans to seek disqualification every time a politician supports or speaks in support of the objectives of a political riot. Imagine how bad actors will use this theory. If that is what Section 3 necessarily means, we have to live with it. But in my opinion, we should seek the narrowest, most precise, least susceptible to abuse, definition that is consistent with history and precedent. In the absence of actual engagement in actual insurrection, judged as such by competent authorities, we should allow the American people to vote for the candidates of their choice.
Congress has enacted a statute, 18 U.S.C § 2383, which covers participation in rebellion or insurrection, and which provides that those found guilty "shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." This mode of enforcement has been enacted by the entity entrusted with responsibility to enforce the Fourteenth Amendment; it proceeds through the ordinary course of prosecution by the executive, trial by a court, decision by a jury, and appeal to appellate courts, with due process at every step. It is significant that the Department of Justice has prosecuted hundreds of persons for their involvement in the January 6 incursion at the Capitol, but has not charged anyone, including Trump, with insurrection under this or any other statute. It is not obvious that partisan officials in state governments, without specific authorization or checks and balances, should apply broad and uncertain definitions to decide who can run for office in a republic, when responsible officials with clear statutory and constitutional authority have not done so.
Note that the "friends" here isn't just the lawyer conceit of referring to opposing counsel as "my friends"; I think McConnell and Calabresi, Baude, and Paulsen are indeed friends, and McConnell, Baude, and Paulsen are actually coauthors (together with our own Sam Bray) of a casebook on the Constitution. Baude also clerked for McConnell when McConnell was a Tenth Circuit judge (as did Bray). As you might gather, I'm always delighted to see—and, when possible, host—such substantive debates among friends and colleagues.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
It's "aid *or* comfort" in Sec. 3, not "aid *and* comfort."
But it's still "given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof", not to naughty people in general, which is his point.
The number of people holding relevant office in DC at the moment who could be swept up by Baude et all's interpretation of Section 3, after the Antifa/BLM riots of the Trump years, is flatly absurd. It's a no limits hunting license for political foes. As I noted yesterday under another post, it would be very easy to claim that Biden falls under this prohibition.
And meeting Baude's burden of proof is trivially easy, because he doesn't HAVE a burden of proof.
Maybe! But you are bringing a policy argument to a constitutional interpretation fight.
I think reality and consequences should matter in such decisions, but conservatives don’t!
You're such a high-minded and noble thinker, Sacrastr0
Thanks for reminding us how awesome and nuanced and intellectual and downright special you are!
Kudos to you! Hip hip horay!
There is nothing to indicate that either reality or consequences have any place in your (or Baude's) constitutional "interpretation" here.
Because DQing Trump from the ballot on the basis of this unhinged "interpretation" of Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment would definitely have consequences.
1) My analysis of Baude's paper is not the same as how I think a court should rule.
2) If you read below, you will see I'm not even sure about Baude's paper quite yet; the previous comments thread raised some doubts.
But none of that means I'm going to ignore bad comments.
Oh yeah? You ignore my bad comments all the time, Your Highness.
Except your comments, since you lie to get off on the negative attention so I literally have you on ignore.
Then how did you see that one?
lol got her
Seems like your argument is that only criminal procedures are free from abuse.
There's a fine line but still discernable.
The BLM riots or any other riots in the recent history were not trying to subvert the Government nor they tried to stop any Constitutional proceedings.
On the other hand, Trump invited his followers/future rioters, and engaged with encouragements to subvert the Government and to try topple the President elect.
Now, if any elected State official has the obligation to follow and apply the rules provided in the Constitution, he should do so, as those who elected him at the State level, at least, gave him this responsibility.
I find the argument of using constitutional provisions to bar DJT from office more plausible than I thought I might, before reading the above article.
Wow, fascinating to watch a bunch of Lawyers- Law scholars debate why the Government of the United States thinks it has the right to remove the "Peoples Pick for President." These same academic elites on TV and in print have frequently attacked Trump and his Supporters, and I happen to be one of them. Trump Supporters and Trump have been bullied and demeaned by the mainstream media, entrenched politicians- federal bureaucrats and elitists throughout the academia ever since this man came down the escalator. Why the fear? I was sued in federal court for exposing an unfit candidate running for office. Eugene Volokh wrote about this in this very blog. The plaintiff tried to gag the whole complaint. In the filing, I was accused of being an insurrectionist libelist and wager of Trump's Army- the post "Political Candidate Can't Sue Critics Pseudonymously, Under Seal, with Gag Order." I prevailed in this federal case as the judge - A good one that believes in our right to freedom of speech dismissed all of it in summary judgment. I spent my own money defending myself. I have never made a dime off the writings on my blog. Trump and his supporters have been called Despicable Deplorables-criminals and cult members by the very people who are despicable criminals and cult members.
A cult doesn't have 77 million people; that is a revolution; a cult has a few thousand people with painted hair pronouns and expounds the destruction of our most innocent-our children.
We Freedom Fighting Patriots in this Country are diligent and outnumber all you Trump Haters. We don't give a damn about your thrashing of the Fourteenth Amendment and its ability for inept vindictive Lawyers to use it to commit LawFare. We are taking our country back because if we don't stand now, it won't matter this blather of an ambiguous amendment because there will be no constitution left for you Legal Eagles to argue over. President Trump is the only man fighting for this country's forgotten men and women. President Trump loves our country and its people. Our Founding Fathers would be repulsed by what you elite lawyers and legal cobblers have done to our Constitution and this great Country. Let's see how hard you societal snobs fight when Real War is waged against us, or will you hide and suck up like the traitor Torys in our founded days?
Thank you and hear! hear!
The law professors who advocate for keeping Trump off the ballot would rapidly change their positions should the discussion be about Biden or another Democrat. They just don't want those "wrong" voters making the decision as to who is our nation's President.
The writer of this article is correct, once this creative reading of the Constitution is used against Trump, then election officials nation-wide will use it to prevent conservatives from running for any office. To them "wrong-think" is a crime of "insurrection".
law professors who advocate for keeping Trump off the ballot would rapidly change their positions
Hypothetical hypocricy is so pure. Especially with such well known Democratic supporters as Will Baude and Steven Calabresi.
A look around the world, and through history, suggests less than pure motivations in using the power of the state to harm political enemies.
It's so monstrously destructive to not just the quality of human life, but human life itself, that all other problems are minor in comparison.
When accusing an individual of having a double standard, you should probably cite more than 'history includes authoritarians so I'll bet you're one.'
History, and just interacting with humans, shows that people are, in fact, capable of having motives - even win politics - other than political partisanship.
Do not use some handwaving generality to accuse actual individuals of things. At least not if you don't want to be dismissed as a crank.
But you are a crank - comments are regularly insane ipse dixits about the motives of people in politics, and how government is exactly like organized crime.
We all know that Gaslightr0 never has any other motive than the partisan because we've observed him at length and everything he says is partisan.
But in Gasligtr0-World we should never believe our lying eyes. According to him. Hence the handle we know him by so well.
Sarcastr0 is a woman.
That explains everything.
Is it hypothetical if it happens every day on other issues? You think highly politicized people are going to suddenly find a principle to be constant on? Like blind squirrels and acorns?
Baude has a double standard every day in other issues?
Also you are not one to judge double standards, you are notorious on here for how motivated your judgement is to find them and bothsides post,
The cycle of cynicism via hypothetical double standards that is used to fuel the certainty of the hypothetical double standard is proof via imagination. And it’s used by MAGA to rationalize whatever awful thing they want based on nothing more than their desires.
She was talking about the law professors as a group and their double standards.
And let me understand this. I’m not one to judge double standards because I’m constantly pointing them out in both sides, thereby demonstrating that I don’t have double standards. That argument makes sense to you somehow?
As to cynicism, with all the shit flying around Trump and Biden, and their allies condemning the other guy while defending their own, what rational person wouldn’t be cynical?
The comment encompasses both the general and the specific.
You constantly find equivalences no one else outside of the MAGA shouters do.
Cynicism is a shallow heuristic, as can be seen by your handwaving about lotsa shit. Used as sole support to denigrate individual substance or motives it is as fallacious as any other overgeneralization fallacy.
You don’t see the double standards on your side because your thought processes are polluted by your hyper-politicization.
To neutrals, expecting you partisans to switch sides is as predictable as sunrise and sunset.
And your MAGA accusation is simply lazy and stupid. Disagree with Sarcastro = MAGA. It’s the only explanation you can comprehend.
Have the last word, I’m out on this one and your polibrain is strong today. Tired of wasting pixels.
Plenty of non-Trump conservatives have pointed out you have the wrong end of the stick.
There are plenty of folks I disagree with who aren't MAGA shouters. You aren't one of them, you just adopt their views when necessary.
You're not a neutral, you're a bothsidesist - committed to finding equally bad stuff that both sides do, and thus having to believe what the right-wing fever swamps say to find Biden badness equal to Trump.
No. Biden badness is far worse than Trump's. Trump didn't arrest Biden, still less try to keep him off the ballot.
He didn't have any basis to. So instead he illegally extorted Ukraine to announce an investigation of Biden.
Here comes David, the last person on Earth who thinks Biden did no wrong doing in Ukraine.
He didn’t have any basis to. So instead he illegally extorted Ukraine to announce an investigation of Biden.
What's illegal with assisting the DOJ? Active DOJ investigation into Biden's Corruption asks Trump for assistance in getting Ukraine to help. And Trump gets impeached for assisting the DOJ in an investigation.
What DOJ investigation?
Problem is that this is a set of fabricated facts. The DOJ was not conducting an investigation, and therefore, obviously, Trump did not ask Ukraine for assistance with the investigation. That’s exactly what proved the whole thing was an election-related sham by Trump. That’s what would’ve happened if the thing were a legitimate investigation into corruption. Instead, Trump entirely bypassed the DOJ, and sent his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, to twist Ukrainian arms to announce an investigation of Biden. (Not to conduct one: to announce one.)
"Law professors as a group" aren't making the arguments she's objecting to. Will Baude, Michael Stokes Paulson, and Steven Calabresi are.
"cycle of cynicism via hypothetical double standards that is used to fuel the certainty"
Indeed, so let's stop the babbling here, and watch DJT be tried in courts with the full due process of law.
When he loses in court, he is toast.
He won’t be toast if he loses in court. A convicted Trump may yet win; dumb things happen all the time.
I’m not really sweating hard about what’ll happen in reality on this. The answer is nothing.
But the awful and often hypocritical arguments being brought to light are nevertheless awful and hypocritical and I’m gonna enjoy my lazy Sunday saying so.
"A convicted Trump may yet win; dumb things happen all the time."
unfortunately that happens to be true. But it would be a solid reason to exclude him from the ballot.
Random capitalization and threats of violence on behalf of those elite-hating, lawyer-hating Founders.
What are you going on about? What do you think you are accomplishing?
The Orange Clown is already indicted on 50 counts, with more to come soon.
Let the trials begin.
Illiterate, flailing, blustering, all-talk right-wing assholes are among the most deplorable culture war casualties . . . and the precise target audience cultivated by a bunch of disaffected, disrespected, bigot-friendly, white, male, conservative law professors operating at the doomed fringe of modern legal academia.
Get an education, CH. Start with standard English. Focus on capitalization.
And please, please include a shout-out to Prof. Volokh every time you write or say anything anywhere at any time!
Kindly take this illiterate, demented piffle somewhere else.
We have a sufficient number of partisan-blinded wankers commenting already. If you are incapable of engaging with the arguments presented in the posts, you are wasting our time. You are convincing nobody.
Alpheus, there is no convincing anyone of anything on the internet.
I've shown people here countless videos of one particular truth, and they still call him Michelle.
Videos! There's no reasoning with delusional midwits.
Voltage!
There's a report of an unearthed 40 year old letter from Obama (He was Barry back then) to his then girlfriend about how he dreams every day of making love to a man.
Looks like hey made them come true! lol
I assume that you are really Bevilacqua.
Is that so?
Anyway, you're correct; all of this blah-blah from "partisan-blinded wankers" is pointless.
It is very much so!
Nice to meet you pisano.
"Bullied."
So the Governor of Florida removing duly elected officials from office in that state because they are political opponents whose positions he does not agree with does not fall into the category of
". . . depriving voters of the ability to elect candidates of their choice. If abused, this is profoundly anti-democratic."
because he is a Republican and and Pseudo Conservative? Well of course.
The reason almost all who post and respond on this forum are not taken seriously is that they adopt their positions on basic principles not on the validity of those principles but on which side of the political spectrum a position lies. Until that changes posts like this, however valid, will be laughed at and ridiculed.
Florida's constitution explicitly grants the governor that power...
The Florida Constitution says that the governor can remove local elected officials for entirely partisan reasons and to be sure he stays in the news as his Presidential ambitions are in jeopardy?
Relevant section is here.
https://www.flsenate.gov/laws/constitution
I did not say he couldn't do it, I just said that if one is going to complain that not allowing individuals to run for office solely on the action by an elected official, then one would certainly have to strongly opposed an elected official who removes duly elected official from office. T
That is about as anti-democratic as you can get, but because the official doing the removing is of a certain political party he gets a pass from those who support that party and it platform. So far the idea that Trump cannot run for President is just that, an idea. But the Governor of Florida has actually thwarted the will of the electorate for partisan political reasons.
Just note that the governor initiates the process, the state legislature has the final say.
And its hardly undemocratic for the state legislature to be the ultimate authority in the state.
No, the state senate can reinstate the suspended official if it chooses to, after the president of the senate or a majority of its members call for a special session.
The Florida legislature didn't override a DeSantis veto of a bill that only had one member out of both chambers vote 'no' on it. You think there is any chance they'd buck him to support a Democrat?
Senate review is required:
"Under Florida law, the Florida Senate must decide whether to reinstate Warren or remove him completely. The Senate must send out a notice of an initial hearing within 90 days, per Senate rules"
https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/08/04/desantis-suspends-hillsborough-county-state-attorney-andrew-warren/
So clearly the ultimate authority is the Florida Senate not Ron DeSantis, even if they are very likely to agree with him.
"Ultimate authority" in the sense that they have to decide whether to overrule the governor. At least, they do eventually. Andrew Warren chose to fight his suspension one year ago in court first, so those hearings have been postponed while that process played out. The same will happen with the Orange County state attorney.
“The first step in addressing a suspension is to inform the suspended official of the Senate’s receipt of the governor’s suspension action and to inquire whether it is the intention of the suspended official to resign from office or request a hearing,” [Senate President] Passidomo wrote.
“Alternatively, should Ms. Worrell choose to challenge the suspension order in court, the Senate process will be held in abeyance and the matter will not be considered by the Senate until final determination of a court challenge and the exhaustion of all appellate remedies,” she continued.
The governor gets to suspend local elected officials unilaterally, and then the Florida Senate might decide to reinstate that official at some point later. That's a very weak version of "ultimate authority", in my opinion.
I'm not commenting at all on the constitutional issues with Trump, only stating that your Desantis example is poor
You don't seem to understand Sidney's point.
The Florida constitution lets the governor kick out elected officials.
The US constitution bars insurrectionists from running.
Why do you excuse one but condemn the other, if not because of the parties involved in the current applications?
But the Florida constitution specifically allocates that power to the Governor, while the federal Constitution does NOT specifically allocate the power to random public officials. The due process in Florida's case starts with the Governor saying he's doing it and giving reasons. The due process in the federal case, if you believe Baude, is... none.
Who is empowered by the Constitution to ensure that candidates for President who are not at least 35 years of age are kept off the ballot?
*
That's a ministerial function of the States.
Enforcement of section 3 is reserved for Congress by appropriate legislation per section 5.
Nobody. At the time that provision was enacted, with the rest of the Constitution, there was no such thing as "ballot access". Voters votes for whoever they wanted, period.
So there was nobody empowered to keep candidates off ballots that were provided by the voter, except the voter.
Using "ballot access" to curate the voters' choices was an abuse that came in only after the Civil war, when governments started printing ballots as a convenience for the voters, and shortly after realized this empowered them to make it hard to vote for candidates they disapproved of. Recently, states have been experimenting with going further, and making it impossible to vote for anybody they don't allow on the ballot, by refusing to allow write in votes.
Keeping candidates off the ballot because you don't want anybody to be able to vote for them is a voting rights violation, it's got nothing to do with the candidates' rights.
So, constitutionally, who enforces the constitutional qualifications for office? Congress, by refusing to certify the election of unqualified individuals! Who else do you think would have enforced it, before governments were even printing ballots in the first place?
Kazinski,
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Congress does not have the exclusive power to do so. It is not a case where if Congress doesn't act, then no one else can. Remember that the Supremacy Clause gives laws passed by Congress priority over any state action. But if Congress has not used its power and that power is not prohibited to the states, then the states are free to act on their own. In fact, if a state's laws and constitution vest authority to determine ballot qualifications with a secretary of state, then they are duty-bound to apply the U.S. Constitution along with state laws.
No, the due process is state secretaries saying they're doing it and giving reasons.
Maybe the reason is he's 29. Maybe the reason is he engaged in an insurrection. Both of those are much more specific than Florida's "incompetence" standard.
You guys sure are willing to ignore the constitution when it's inconvenient to your partisanship. Sad!
So state secretaries can, on their own initiative, exclude FJB for providing aid or comfort to the Taliban, according to you, Baude, and Paulsen. Is that right?
Of course, these state secretaries are not mentioned in the Constitution.
Yeah, nor is "ballot access" or "voting for president." Ballot access is almost entirely a function of state law. It's totally possible that a state could have a law like "no candidate for President shall be included on the ballot when plausible evidence suggests Constitutional disqualification" so... basically yes:
You miss the point of Michael McConnell's argument.
McConnelll was not arguing that insurrectionists should be allowed to serve in office. He was arguing against defining insurrection "down to include mere riots or civil disturbances, which are common in United States history: and against the argument that insurrection "covers a broad range of conduct against the authority of the constitutional order, including many instances of indirect participation or support." And he argued that "It is not obvious that partisan officials in state governments, without specific authorization or checks and balances, should apply broad and uncertain definitions to decide who can run for office in a republic, when responsible officials with clear statutory and constitutional authority have not done so"
The Florida Constitution plainly and clearly gave the governor power to suspend lower officials not subject to impeachment.
...when responsible officials with clear statutory and constitutional authority have not done so...
Baude, et al, have argued that the U.S. Constitution is clear on this matter and secretaries of state usually are the ones with clear statutory and (state) constitutional authority to determine a candidate's qualification to be on the ballot. McConnell is arguing "ought" when Baude is making an "is" argument.
Actually it's bang on, look at the clause again:
By executive order stating the grounds and filed with the custodian of state records, the governor may suspend from office any state officer not subject to impeachment, any officer of the militia not in the active service of the United States, or any county officer, for malfeasance, misfeasance, neglect of duty, drunkenness, incompetence, permanent inability to perform official duties, or commission of a felony, and may fill the office by appointment for the period of suspension.
I'd say Trump is guilty of insurrection to a greater extent than the prosecutors were guilty of these things.
And if an official used that power to exclude Trump from the ballot he could sue, just like the Florida Prosecutor did.
And in fact, the Federal Court did rule that DeSantis broke the law, but the Federal Judge couldn't issue a ruling based on the State constitution and the Florida Court ruled he waited too long to file in State Court.
But, if he filed in state court quickly enough (he waited for the Federal case to fail?) he presumably would have been re-instated since DeSantis fired him for made up reasons.
That is wide discretion. But it seems like there’s fine grounds to challenge if none of the stated reasons are applicable.
Some of us have problems with both issues. I don't know the minutia of Florida's constitution, but you can't "fire" someone who was elected. The proper thing to deal with an elected official is for the voters to have a chat with him at the next election.
I agree. Absent a conviction for insurrection Trump should be allowed to run, and absent due process a governor should not be allowed to remove duly elected officials from office
Oddly enough, following the state constitution is by definition 'due process'.
Also the US one! Imagine it.
Municipalities and counties are creatures of the state. Anyway, Orange County, Florida is 52% black and Lateeno and 6% Asian. I don't see any reason that people not descended from the people who built America should be electing violent public official who excuse violence from their "cousins."
We’re stuck with Sec. 3, even though its policy of keeping former Confederate leaders out of office only lasted about four years (1868-1872), except for disqualifications on a small handful of unrepentant top Confederates like Davis. (This handful were fully reinstated by 1898, except for the dead ones like Davis, who was posthumously reinstated in the 1970s).
We need to accept Sec. 3 as part of the Constitution, which doesn’t mean we have to accept every weird interpretation – such as being able to bypass the First Amendment.
Ideally, Congress ought to specify specific procedures to deal with politicians whose Sec. 3 status is in doubt. Sec. 3 itself doesn’t do this, unlike the Florida constitution, which spells out a specific procedure (whether you like the procedure or not).
But Congress can fill the Sec. 3 gap – and it did in Reconstruction by providing quo warranto actions to remove unqualified persons from office, while leaving to legislative bodies (Congress and state legislatures) to judge their own members.
After that lapsed, the House of Representatives still felt able to exclude Victor Berger – *after* he’d been convicted in federal court. And when the federal decision was overruled, they un-excluded him.
I suppose Congress is too dysfunctional to designate a single form of due-process hearing to rule on Sec. 3 issues. Maybe they can at the very least pass a law providing such a fair hearing for non-Trump-related misconduct, leaving the partisans to continue their arguments over Trump and his alleged partners in crime. In that way, we could at least have some coherent way to resolve *future* Sec. 3 disputes without the procedural chaos we’re probably going to see with Trump.
Sidney,
Whataboutism does not advance the legal arguments of Baude and friends.
The last paragraph in the post you replied to makes it clear this is not whattaboutism.
Interestingly, the War of the States was, at the time of the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment, considered neither an insurrection nor a rebellion: it was instead considered a war. I maintain that the distinction remains as significant today as it was in 1870: Congress can exercise its belligerent rights as well as its sovereign and municipal rights and the then-presiding Command In Chief can independently do the same. Even more interesting is that it is the then-presiding Commander-In-Chief who may declare, by proclamation, that the laws of the United States are opposed: even today, there are some (including the Fourth Circuit [grin]) who wrongly imagine three truly co-equal branches of government.
One question we must answer is if a presiding Commander-In-Chief -- the rightful leader of all armed forces, including all militia -- can lead his forces in an insurrection against himself?
Randall states the past quandary best: "The Southern States were taxed as if part of the United States; yet the property out of which such tax must be paid was declared confiscable as belonging to enemies. [...] Eight States of the former Confederacy, after assisting in ratifying the anti-slavery amendment of the Constitution, were treated as outside the Union. Legal interpretation in the 'sixties often smacked of sophistry -- so much so that to many men an open confession of unconstitutionality appeared preferable to the labored reasoning that was all too common. Much of the legal inconsistency arose from confusion as to what the war was, whether it was extramural or within the family. [...]"
"The conflict was defined as both a public war and a rebellion, with the result that in Southern territory the United States claimed both belligerent and municipal powers. Many bootless and mystifying discussions resulted from this acceptance of two inconsistent viewpoints."
This cannot be correct, if only because the only possible reason for that part of that amendment was to stop the states from sending former Confederates to Congress; it would have been stupid to reference something else there that would not apply to former Confederates.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2022/09/11/14th-amendment-disqualification-couy-trump/
Yes it can be correct. There were enormous international repercussions for either interpretation, such as the legality of the blockade and international recognition of the Confederacy.
That would be recognizing it as both a dessert topping and a floor wax, not just one, and during the rebellion rather than when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed in 1866.
They did a lot of "Shimmer" during the Civil war, on multiple topics, just taking whichever view of what was going on that was convenient at the moment. That's just one of the reasons I say that Civil war era precedents should basically NEVER be taken seriously outside of a civil war.
They were basically just doing whatever they wanted, and making ad hoc excuses afterwards, not engaging in real legal reasoning.
I won't argue that it didn't variously get called a war, an insurrection and a rebellion at various times, for public relations purposes or otherwise, during it or after it. That's a much weaker claim than mydisplayname made, and it is not what I am arguing at all. mydisplayname is wrong in that statement, and you guys are at best arguing irrelevant points.
It is absolutely impossible that Congress would pass a 14th amendment that specifies insurrection or rebellion to disqualify former Confederates if it was not called that at the time but only called a war as mydisplayname claimed, because then it would not achieve their purpose. They knew what they themselves called it better than anybody today; they used it to disqualify former Confederates; Congress later voted to remove disqualification for individual former Confederates. So they obviously knew that they themselves considered the Civil War* an insurrection or a rebellion for purposes of the 14th amendment.
* Only called that much later, of course.
Against himself? No; insurrection is against the country, not against the president. L'état n'est pas lui.
The popular view at the time may (or may not) have been that the America - CSA conflict was a war, but legally it was not. To deem it a war, America would have had to recognize the CSA as a belligerent nation, which would have validated their secession.
There are more than a few parts of the Constitution which are not immediately clear as to their meaning and scope. If only we had an institutions whose job it was to determine what those things are!
Any act by a Secretary of State to disqualify a candidate on the basis of disqualification by Sec. 3 would result in a fast trip through the courts. McConnell's fears are overblown. Someone quoting Rev. King Jr. about riots being the "language of the unheard" in reference to a riot doesn't need to fear being disqualified from holding public office.
McConnell is responding to people who argue that government officials should (try to) unilaterally block Trump from being on ballots or otherwise being recognized as a candidate. He's engaging with what people actually proposed, apparently in earnest, rather than any kind of straw man. How does that represent an overblown fear?
And they're stimulating this idea precisely to get around the idea of a national consensus on the issue, because GIT 'IM! at any cost.
You knock him out of any purple state, even a small one, and his chance goes from small to zero.
Mission accomplished!
Lock her up. Lock her up.
Again: any act by any official to declare Trump disqualified to be on their state's ballot will find itself on the rocket docket in the courts. His fears are overblown.
"Any act by a Secretary of State to disqualify a candidate on the basis of disqualification by Sec. 3 would result in a fast trip through the courts."
Right. And nobody would ever try to game the timing, acting too late in the process for that trip to be finished before the election. That's just unthinkable.
Did you have some kind of actual point you'd like to make against the argument, or are you just here to throw out adverse consequence fallacies?
Brett makes the point that a certain type of Secretary of State may suddenly decide to remove an individual from the ballot at a date that is too late for a challenge. Perhaps at midnight on the day before voting day.
Are you actually familiar with how voting laws and challenges in various states are handled, and what the time parameters are? Or are you just pulling scenarios out of your posterior?
Perhaps you could explain how a Secretary of State could remove a name from millions of printed ballots at midnight on the day before voting.
Yes, I'm familiar with how voting laws and challenges are supposed to be handled. Democrat Party majority supreme courts just ignored the rules in 2020 when it suited them.
Just because someone's name is on the printed ballots doesn't mean you have the votes he still gets even after the voters have been informed that votes for him won't be counted.
"how a Secretary of State could remove a name from millions of printed ballots "
of course s/he could not.
The names would never be on the ballots in the first place (at least that is the claim). But I'd say let a SoS try right now; the sooner the better.
The claim was that they would be removed on midnight before Election Day. Ignoring both the physical impossibility of such a thing, and the fact that the SoS is bound by state election laws which give strict time parameters for such actions.
Well, you may want to consider the electronic ballots that are commonly used in many areas. And a simple software update...
Fewer and fewer, since there isn't a paper trail. And I assure you it's very far from simple. For one thing, touch screen ballot machines are stand-alone without internet access, so each one would have to be changed manually.
Yeah... it's a dumb point.
You might as well speculate about a governor shutting down polling places at midnight before voting.
As we saw Nov 5th - Jan 6th there's actually quite a few safeguards in place against someone trying to steal an election.
No, as we saw, there are no safeguards in place, which is why Pedo Joe is in office.
18 U.S. Code § 2383 adds a criminal penalty to the Constitutional violation but clarifies that the criminal penalty does not override the Constitutional disqualification from office because otherwise it might be arguable that § 2383 provides the Congressional override of disqualification.
If I were a Secretary of State charged with determining whether Donald Trump should appear on my state's ballot, I think I would sue in U. S. District Court for declaratory judgment pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 2201. That would allow for Trump to be heard on whether he engaged in insurrection or rebellion, and other interested parties could seek intervention under Fed.R.Civ.P. 24. A final judgment of the district court would be appealable.
Interesting idea. I suppose that jurisdiction would be based on 28 USC 1331: "The district courts shall have original jurisdiction of all civil actions arising under the Constitution, laws, or treaties of the United States."
Only problem I see is that this would be an enormously complex factual inquiry, taking months and months of discovery. Hard to see how a court could wrap it up within a short time between a state Secty. of State suing and an election.
The federal courts can move quickly when they choose to do so. In United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974), the Supreme Court on July 24, 1974 finally resolved a motion to quash a subpoena duces tecum which was first challenged on May 1, 1974.
In Bush v. Gore, 531 U.S. 98 (2000), Vice-president Gore filed an election contest in state court in Florida on November 27, 2000. SCOTUS short circuited the action on December 12, 2000.
Not that quick, NG. Pragmatically speaking, how do you conclude an enormously complex factual inquiry, taking months and months of discovery far enough in advance of an election? What about appeals (they are inevitable)?
I am thinking logistics, not politics: Stuff has to be printed, distributed, staff trained, etc.
Pragmatically speaking, how does a SoS personally conclude that an enormously complex factual inquiry, taking months and months of discovery much quicker than a court? Baude's proposal is to just skip the factual inquiry and have random people declare Trump guilty.
Which IS fast, I'll grant.
The way you conclude that process well in advance of the election is by starting it back in 2021, which is what should have been done if the whole plan hadn't been to avoid all that (due) process to begin with.
Your impressive ahem, mind-reading notwithstanding, every time you've made this "random people" comment you've been embarrassingly wrong.
Since I know you never learn anything and will simply continue to do it, you're going to continue to embarrass yourself as you repeat it in the future.
"Random people" have nothing to do with this. Could you at least try to pretend like you have a fucking clue how elections are held and who oversees them?
Jackass Cavanaugh doesn't have a fucking clue as to how to make an actual argument, imagining that his conclusory ipse dixits about the nature of past events will suffice as a substitute for doing so.
But, no, we all know that Bellmore generally has sensible things to say and that Cavanaugh is a bag of bad-smelling farts.
You don’t work quickly. You stop it until you do have time, and err on the side of caution, which in this case would not be taking an unprecedented step removing someone from the ballot.
In this case, I hesitate the SC would not rise to the speed necessary. And if they couldn't, there is the above paragraph, because his opponents agree they are not tricksters trying to ram something through quickly before an election.
The Comedian: "It's a joke. It's all a joke."
We're about justice, and not motivated by politicKEEP HIM OFF THE BALLOT
I don't see why you would have to stop or delay the election, since section 3 is silent on the question of who can appear on the ballot.
It's hard foy you to see anything much when you have your head so far up your ass.
Sick burn, dude.
You think you can file a DJ in civil court to establish that someone committed a criminal act? Oh dear.
In your 25+ years of practicing criminal law, exactly how many clients of yours had the burden to prove their innocence?
Engaging in insurrection is a civil disqualification from office, not a criminal case. The result of the DJ action is that Trump would not get on the ballot. There would be no punishment from that case. So it's not criminal.
And who said Trump has the burden of proof? That would be on the Secty of State as the plaintiff. (Whether the burden would be preponderance or clear and convincing evidence is an interesting question.)
I get the cutesy attempt at a workaround, but at the end of the day you're still asking a civil court to rule on a violation of a criminal statute, namely 18 USC 2383. I'd be fairly interested in reading whatever precedent you might be able to scrape up on that sort of bootstrapping.
No punishment -- just can't run for president? That's an interesting way to look at it.
That's how NG appeared to frame it -- I'll wait to hear from him that he didn't actually mean it that way.
"but at the end of the day you’re still asking a civil court to rule on a violation of a criminal statute, namely 18 USC 2383"
No, you are asking the Court to rule that Trump engaged in an Insurrection within the meaning of Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Which is a disqualification from office, not a punishment. Like it or not, it's right there in the Constitution. Like being at least 35, or being a native born citizen.
"No punishment — just can’t run for president? That’s an interesting way to look at it."
Yes, disqualification from office is not a punishment in any traditional sense of the term. You don't get executed, or go to jail, or get fined.
As NG pointed out, there is sometimes an overlap between civil and criminal cases. They still have different consequences and different procedures.
NG can speak for himself, but generally a plaintiff in a civil suit seeking to change the status quo has the burden of proof.
I note no precedent sprang to your mind, as I suspected. More on that below.
Still too cute imo -- you're effectively taking the position that the 14th Amendment envisions some sort of non-criminal insurrection, leaving to the imagination of the reader whatever in the world that could possibly mean.
I get the temptation that arises from shiny new, seemingly impeccable pretzel-logic theories that can finally get rid of Pesky Orange Man. But it's probably helpful to just be honest about that and stop pretending this is anything resembling SOP.
What Trump did was unprecedented. So that there has been no prior case means nothing, but is just a dodge by you.
"you’re effectively taking the position that the 14th Amendment envisions some sort of non-criminal insurrection, leaving to the imagination of the reader whatever in the world that could possibly mean."
You seem to have trouble reading. The same act can be both a criminal act and a civil violation. Like assault. Criminal cases are brought by the state to punish. Civil cases are brought to establish other legal rights, like compensation or an injunction.
Perhaps you recall that OJ Simpson was found not guilty of murder, but still liable for wrongful death, and his victims' families awarded compensation.
So assuming Trump engaged an Insurrection (I am dubious about that myself) that exposed him to two different things: punishment as a crime, and disqualification from office.
And guess what, insurrection was not a federal crime until 1909, almost 50 years after the Civil War was over. So the 14th Amendment was never a criminal penalty, but a disqualification from office.
Of course it can. Now all you have to do is get past the table pounding ipse dixit phase and show that A14S3 actually contemplates some sort of cloud-gazing, insurrecitony-lite behavior capable of subjective interpretation, rather than actually being found guilty of insurrection.
I haven't researched it in detail, but I am not sure that insurrection was a federal criminal offense in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted. The present statute dates to 1948. According to Wikipedia -- as I said, I haven't researched in detail -- the Insurrection Act of 1807 did not provide a criminal penalty for insurrection.
Speaking of ipse dixit, are we projecting much, LoB? You posit that § 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment requires a criminal conviction, while citing no authority for that proposition, and beg the quetion time and again and again and again.
Brian, if it helps, think of it like how you can have your driver’s license suspended if you refuse a breathalyzer. Refusing a breathalyzer is your right, but a driver’s license isn't, so it can be revoked without due process.
There’s no constitutional right to get on a ballot. There’s also no constitutional right to “run for president.” There’s a constitutional right to vote for your preferred candidate (sort of barely). The question is what would happen if people voted for Trump and he were elected even if he had engaged in an insurrection, or was 29 at the time.
For the record, I think J6 was an insurrection, but not one that Trump engaged in (based on existing public evidence).
Almost, but not quite. It cannot be revoked without due process. But, as always, the question is: what process is due?
For criminal punishment, the full panoply of rights is required. For other things, it's less. There are civil situations where proof by clear and convincing evidence is required. The majority, merely preponderance is. You're entitled to a lawyer (as in, the state must provide one) for a criminal prosecution, but in most civil cases, if you can't afford one, tough luck. The rules of evidence may apply, or may not. If a government school wants to punish a student, it depends how severe. If it’s afterschool detention, you're entitled to virtually no process. If it's a short suspension, a bit more — the hearing may be totally informal, just a meeting between school official and kid. A 10+ day suspension requires a more formal process. (But it can come after the suspension is handed down.)
So, yes, they can suspend your license without convicting you of anything, but you're still entitled to the bare minimum: notice and a hearing. But depending on the scenario, sometimes the hearing can even be after the fact.
In the case of the 14th amendment disqualification, you're entitled to a day in court to contest it, but you're entitled to the protections of the criminal justice system.
It helps indeed -- to punctuate exactly how contorted is the argument we're considering in this thread.
Presumption of consent to a breathalyzer test and the associated punishment for not consenting has precisely nothing to do with whether I was actually driving under the influence.
A far closer analogy would be if a state enacted a civil statute saying you're not allowed to have a driver's license if you drive under the influence, and then some rando DMV clerk who didn't like me went to court and asked for a declaratory judgment that they didn't have to grant my renewal application not because I'd actually been convicted of DUI, but because they saw a Tiktok video showing me driving erratically while throwing an empty beer can out the window. There as here, the due process problem is attached to the triggering condition, not the issuance of the license itself.
That seems very shaky. Were that the case, section 3 of the 14th is totally superfluous -- just don't let the people on the ballot you think are sufficiently ungood.
I think the fact that they felt the need to draft it lines up quite well with the higher-level state of play that the people retain all rights not limited in the Constitution, so anyone not excluded by the age/birth/residency constraints does indeed have the right to run. And states can impose ministerial rules for getting on a ballot, but not ones that winnow the stack of candidates for reasons that should be obvious enough.
Right, which is another reason why this angel-pinhead exercise is all a bit silly -- worst case Trump ends up a write-in candidate, which after the ensuing manual counting nightmare would basically put Congress in the position of deciding whether to disregard that vote and instead install his opponent.
Hmmm... that almost sounds familiar.
You and your weird attempts at burden flipping once again. As the challenger under this... erm "creative" theory that an insurrectionist under 14AS3 is something other than someone convicted of that crime, you need to prove that. Until then, the earth remains round.
Yes, this is how it's supposed to work. This is what would happen if a state tried to elect a 29-year-old.
The Constitution isn't written in terms of ballot access and individual votes. It's written in terms of States doing largely what they want within the bounds of equal protection and federal law, then submitting some electoral college electors to Congress.
I can't tell if you're joking here or not. Are you joking, or just being retarded again? Some of each?
Anyway, for the |boring|'th time, there's zero reason to think "engaged in an insurrection" means "convicted of an unspecified crime involving insurrection." Like, that's just not what it says. Case closed.
Indeed, note how roughly the same Congress phrased the previous amendment:
They knew how to make clear that there was a conviction requirement. They did not do so in the 14th.
Even if insurrection wasn’t a federal criminal offense before 1868 (as I recall John Brown was charged under Virginia law for his raid on the federal arsenal), there was other evidence that the Confederate insurrectionists had engaged in insurrection: loyalty oaths to the Confederacy, capture/parole under arms by the Union Army. Both of those things fairly qualify as engaging in insurrection or rebellion, as there was a federal declaration of an ongoing insurrection/rebellion dating from 1861. Lincoln didn’t just talk about a rebellion; he declared it and was ratified by Congress. Such a state of rebellion had an end date to it I believe, also sanctioned by Congress.
No such evidence exists from 2021. Hence the need to conduct a criminal trial to develop such evidence, since civil courts remained opened and neither martial law nor an insurrection proclamation was never declared.
How do you have an insurrection if no competent authority declares it contemporaneously? Only by pursuing a criminal indictment.
The Secretary of State would have the burden of showing the existence of an actual controversy within jurisdiction of the federal courts. I surmise that would require a showing by a preponderance of evidence.
Suing Donald Trump as a party defendant would create such a controversy. Other persons claiming an interest in the question could seek intervention under Fed.R.Civ.P. 24. This could include other declared candidates for the Republican nomination or candidates for the Democratic nomination for president. Each party would have ample incentive to litigate.
"The Secretary of State would have the burden of showing the existence of an actual controversy within jurisdiction of the federal courts. I surmise that would require a showing by a preponderance of evidence."
That's true. But you are mixing up showing a case or controversy with the merits. Both are required showings for the plaintiff.
I think showing a case or controversy would be easy -- Secty of State wants to take Trump off the ballot, Trump does not want that. I think that is more than enough under MedImmune.
But what about the merits? What does the Secty of State have to show to disqualify Trump? Under what standard of proof? Most civil cases use preponderance of the evidence, but a few use clear and convincing evidence. Given the civil rights implications, I would tend to favor the latter.
There is a case or controversy, but is there a remedy? Would the Secretary of State have to follow the advice of the district court? Probably depends on state law.
There's no reason a state couldn't keep Trump on the ballot even if he were disqualified, I expect. They could probably remove him through state law for nearly any reason too. So what exactly would the federal court be deciding in practice?
The thwarting of democracy for rabidly partisan reasons isn't a punishment? Sure, but it's kind of a problem.
That’s overdetermined and you know it.
Life of Brian, let me break it down for you. Suppose the victim of an assault and battery sued the assailant civilly for damages arising from the altercation. The plaintiff victim would bear the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence. The defendant assailant would have the opportunity to be heard on liability and on damages.
That the defendant's conduct also constituted a crime would be relevant only to the extent that the defendant could assert his privilege against self-incrimination in the civil suit (although the finder of fact could draw an adverse inference from invocation of the privilege). A judgment for damages would not have preclusive effect in any criminal prosecution arising from the assault because of the higher standard of proof in a criminal proceeding.
Any more foolish questions?
Bluster isn't going to get you out of this one, I'm afraid. Please cite the civil cause of action for insurrection that would make your analogy anything less than patently silly.
He cited it: the cause of action is a declaratory judgment. The whole purpose of the Declaratory Judgment Act is to declare legal rights between parties, where there is an actual controversy. There are many such cases where one side wants its legal rights declared.
Here are two examples:
Steffel v. Thompson, 415 U.S. 452 (1974) -- plaintiff wants to pass out handbills in front of a shopping center protesting the Vietnam war. He fears being arrested for criminal trespass, so he sues to bring a declaratory judgment that the law as applied to him violates the 1st Amendment.
MedImmune, Inc. v. Genentech, Inc., 549 U.S. 118 (2007) -- licensee of a patent has been paying royalties, now believes the patent is invalid and should be relieved from paying under the license. Brings declaratory judgment to have the patent declared invalid.
Citing a hodgepodge of DJ cases isn't particularly enlightening -- particularly when none attempts to use a civil court to adjudicate a supposedly criminal act.
In your first case, P asked a civil court to find a law unconstitutional -- not to adjudicate whether he had violated it.
In your second, P asked a civil court to adjudicate a factual dispute under US patent law, which unambiguously provides a private cause of action for such challenges.
Neither is anywhere close to what you cowboys are trying to do here.
The first case interposed a defense to a criminal prosecution before it happened. He could have just violated the criminal law and then asserted the First Amendment as a defense. He did not want to do that, so he brought a DJ action.
And you keep saying its a criminal act, and ignoring that it's also an act that disqualifies from office, which is not a criminal punishment. As I already said, and will not say again, the same act can have criminal and civil consequences.
Now we've gone from cutesy to existential. I have to say I've never heard of a lawsuit over the constitutionality of a criminal law described in any way remotely similar to this -- but then I've never seen people bending over backwards quite this desperately to bend the justice system to their service in their eternal quest to shut down one particular individual.
Finally he admits his ignorance! Now can we go home?
Why is disqualification from office -- especially from elected office, as in this case -- less severe or less weighty than a traditional criminal punishment? We are talking about government edicts impinging directly on democratic choices.
Do you have a problem with the minimum age of 35 for a President?
Isn't that "impinging directly on democratic choices?"
Of course it is, and of course it's perfectly acceptable for it to do so.
I wonder why your position on this matter is so blatantly hypocritical? Wait; no I don't.
The age limit is explicit in the Constitution, and it's black and white. There's no argument over what it means -- whereas gaslighters like you are making ever-more implausible stretches to claim that Trump was somehow engaged in an insurrection.
Engaged in an insurrection is also there. It's not like we made it up.
Whether Trump actually engaged in an insurrection is a separate question. It sounds like many of us, myself included, think he did not. But if it turns out that he did, then he should be disqualified.
Insurrection is explicit in the Constitution. There is no lawful basis to ignore it.
Checking someone's birth certificate to decide whether they are 35 years old is a ministerial task. Deciding that Donald Trump engaged in insurrection, absent a federal judicial or Congressional determination, is far into the discretionary domain. There's a huge difference in how open that is to abuse, but you bozos are too partisan to admit it.
Tell that to Donald Trump and future-MAGA circa 2010!
I haven't seen anyone say that it's not open to abuse. But the amount of abuse comes down to how much we trust states to run federal elections fairly. Good thing the Supreme Court rejected the Independent State Legislature theory, right?
A minimum age is objective fact. Natural born citizenship is an objective fact. Both can be verified.
Whether someone has engaged in insurrection is not, at least not somebody like Trump. As I've stated repeatedly, Confederate rebels left a documentation trail of their insurrection: oaths of loyalty, capture/parole under arms by the Union Army. Those documents equally as objective as a birth certificate.
To date, none of the Jan 6 criminal defendants at the U.S. Capitol would qualify as insurrectionists either. They are being criminally prosecuted, yet not for insurrection. It would be egregious if any of them down the road were attempted to be disqualified, yet that is what some seem to be arguing is legitimate.
Because Not Being President is nothing like going to jail?
Congratulations for being as stupid as Stephen Lathrop's straw man?
To the extent that being disqualified from office affects anyone's rights, it isn't those if the person disqualified. There's no right to hold office.
The impacted rights are those of the voters who would / did vote for the person... which is very attenuated in the case of President due to the electoral college.
It’s in the text of the Constitution you yutz.
I missed that. Where is the civil cause of action in the constitution?
The only enforcement mechanism mentioned is Section 5:
"The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
Congress chose to use the criminal code to determine guilt or innocence of insurrection.
You are being disingenuous, Kazinski. Article III, Section 2, Clause 1 of the Constitution states: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution. The meaning of § 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is a question arising under the Constitution.
Wow, Baude first says there is no due process rights, so Trump can't ask for relief from the courts.
Now you are saying the courts can hear the case for which there is no cause of action, and impose a penalty civilly that Congress said requires a criminal conviction to impose.
You are over the map on this, the left side of the map.
"a penalty civilly that Congress said requires a criminal conviction to impose"
Congress said no such thing.
I am not sure I agree with Professor Baude. In any event, in the declaratory judgment action that I posit, it would not be Trump seeking relief from a court; it would be the Secretary of State. Trump would be afforded the right to be heard as an interested party.
Disqualification from office under § 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment is not a criminal penalty, and Congress has never said that § 3 requires a criminal conviction as a prerequisite to imposition. No matter how frequently you beg the question.
Baude did not, in fact, say any such thing. He said exactly the opposite:
What Baude said was that if there were a conflict between due process and the disqualification clause, then the latter would prevail.
Yeah, basically what he said is that, if there's a conflict between due process and making sure Trump can never be President again, the latter prevails.
That's not how due process works.
Basically what Brett said is, scientifically speaking, "bullshit."
Basically!
Most folks don't just hang their strawman out there naked like that, Brett.
Learn to read, Life of Brian. I cited 28 U.S.C. § 2201, which makes declaratory judgment available as a civil remedy. Specifically, it provides that "any court of the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate pleading, may declare the rights and other legal relations of any interested party seeking such declaration, whether or not further relief is or could be sought."
A Secretary of State charged with determining whether to put the name on the ballot of a political candidate who may have engaged in insurrection or rebellion within the meaning of § 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment has standing as an interested party seeking a declaration of his rights. Since the meaning of § 3 is a federal question, a federal district court has subject matter jurisdiction pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1331.
Maybe vague handwaving about ethereal "rights" used to get you somewhere in the criminal context, but in civil court that just doesn't cut the mustard. A DJ plaintiff has to be able to articulate a law and set of facts that would lead to harm to them absent the declaration. I'd be fascinated to hear your theory of the specific legal harm that a SOS could reasonably believe might befall them for performing the ministerial task of placing upon an election ballot the name of someone the SoS believes to be a Very Bad Man.
Not only is Life of Brian not a lawyer, but he also didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and has never watched an episode of Law And Order, Perry Mason, Matlock, or Better Caul Saul.
Other than that, though, his legal insights seem keen.
You are approaching an actual argument here, you just keep getting confused between it and your very stupid argument about ballot access being a criminal question.
You should be pointing out that a state could put a 29 year old on the ballot if it wanted to. It could put an insurrectionist on the ballot. Many states would put Trump on the ballot even if he were "convicted of insurrection." No declaratory judgement needed for that.
Anti-Trump secretaries are the ones who would be seeking a declaration of the right to exclude Trump. But even here, what right exactly is being adjudicated? Equal protection? Is the declaratory judgement sort of self-justified as supplying the necessary due process? Or is it more about wanting to avoid a potential scenario where the state's electors are rejected by Congress?
You seem to be confused Not Guilty. A civil suit may return damages, but can not impose any civil or criminal penalties, like say loss of voting rights, or eligibility for office, even were the penalty for the criminal version of the offense.
Declaratory Judgments are a form of remedy available in civil suits. As are injunctions and other equitable relief.
Your comment assumes that disqualification from office is a criminal penalty, which I do not believe it is.
Its a criminal penalty because Congress defined it as such:
"§2383. Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808 ; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, §330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147 .)
Historical and Revision Notes
Based on title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed., §4 (Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, §4, 35 Stat. 1088 )."
And per Section 5 its up to Congress to decide how Section 3 is enforced.
And the only court I know of to have ruled on that question, the Arizona Supreme Court, so held.
Which Arizona Supreme Court case was that?
See page 25 of Baude’s paper: ” Unfortunately, the Arizona Supreme Court suggested otherwise, writing that “Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment appears to expressly delegate to Congress the authority to devise the method to enforce the Disqualification Clause . . . which suggests that A.R.S. 16-351(B) does not provide a private right of action to invoke the Disqualification Clause against the Candidates."
The case was an attempt to bar Reps. Gosar and Biggs from the ballot last year.
He doesn’t even seriously engage the argument that while there might be room for states to fill the vacuum under section 5 if Congress never acted, once Congress has acted they control the field, much like the commerce clause and the recent phasing out of the dormant commerce clause doctrine. Especially since you don’t have to think too long about the benefits of national solutions to national problems, rather than 50 jurisdictions making 50 different judgements on a whether a president is disqualified for office.
That's because it's not a serious argument.
He didn't seriously engage a lot of stuff. His treatment of the Berger case was a bad joke, for instance. The one solitary application of Section 3 after the Civil war, and practically nothing to say about it except vaguely misrepresenting what actually happened.
It was a serious enough argument for the Arizona Supreme Court to so rule.
Do you have a contrary case to cite?
One must wonder why these two were not prosecuted for insurrection, if in fact there was substantial evidence that they committed insurrection?
The statutes you cite did not even exist in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted.
Disqualification from office under § 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment was not adopted as a criminal penalty. Do you know of any former Confederates who were disqualified under § 3 who were imprisoned or fined without benefit of a separate criminal prosecution?
Congress is empowered under § 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of § 3. Per the Fifth Amendment, however, no person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury. If disqualification under § 3 constitutes criminal punishment, Congress could not institute disqualification proceedings against a particular individual.
Now how could Congress promulgate legislation under section 5 before section 5 existed? And please note as to the civil war the issue became almost moot within months of when the 14th amendment was ratified July of 1868, when President Andrew Johnson issued a full pardon to 99% of ex confederates December 25, 1868: “unconditionally, and without reservation … a full pardon and amnesty for the offence [sic] of treason against the United States, or of adhering to their enemies during the late Civil War, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws.”https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/25/this-day-in-politics-dec-25-1868-1074077
And of course that was followed by Congress passing the 1872 amnesty act, in May of that year.
Nor am I aware of any case where someone in violation of Section 3, attempted to run for federal office before 1872, so that won’t shed any light on the issue.
Baude of course claims that Section 3 did away with the ex post facto provision for any violation of the 14th amendment, I’m glad to see you aren’t embracing that particular lunacy, but it should give you pause in embracing any of it.
In addition of course Congress could have passed legislation to administratively enforce the section 3 if they chose, now that we can agree that the ex post facto clause is still operative.
Pursuant to § 5, Congress could certainly enact a statute providing that disqualification from office under § 3 shall require a criminal conviction as a prerequisite. It has not done so.
Congress has declared at U.S.C. § 2383:
Disqualification under § 3 and disqualification under § 2383 require different elements. Unlike § 3, disqualification under § 2383 is not limited to persons who have previously taken an oath. Incitement of insurrection or rebellion suffices under § 2383; actual engagement in insurrection or rebellion or giving aid or comfort to the enemies is necessary under § 3. Unlike § 3, disqualification under § 2383 cannot be removed by Congress.
Just because Congress tries to write legislation that goes further than what their grant of authority is, doesn’t mean they aren’t relying on that grant.
Someone who has not taken such an oath could certainly lodge an as applied challenge to the disqualification, someone who had previously taken the oath and convicted of insurrection would have their challenge to disqualification summarily dismissed.
And I will note that you implicitly concede my point that once Congress acts to enforce Section 3, there is no air left in the room for the states to craft their own enforcement regime. You merely quibble as to whether when Congress writes a law closely tracks a constitutional clause they have to specifically cite it and mirror it exactly.
"Just because Congress tries to write legislation that goes further than what their grant of authority is, doesn’t mean they aren’t relying on that grant."
I realize this is beyond your ability to even conceive, but hear me out:
What if (crazy talk time), Congress was not addressing the 14th Amendment at all with the decision to make insurrection or rebellion a criminal offense under 2383?
What if they just thought it should be a fucking crime too? Your entire premise rests on your pre-formed conclusion.
Don't be ridiculous Jason, Congress would hardly have added the disqualification clause without the 14th amendment.
How many criminal statutes has Congress passed that hold that persons convicted: "shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
I can only find two, 2381 Treason, and 2383 Rebellion and Insurrection. Both of which would come under the language in section 3: "shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the [United States], or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof".
Not statutes for Public Corruption, Civil Rights abuses, voting rights abuses, Murder, Child Porn, Rape, etc, all things we might not want people holding public office to have engaged in, only conduct defined in section 3.
Your best argument here is that Congress would've been too stupid to have thought "Gee, attempting to actually overthrow the Government should probably disqualify someone from being elected to office?"
Were the writers of the 14th Amendment that stupid?
No Jason the argument is Congress doesn't have power to bar someone from federal office unless there is specific authority in the constitution.
Remember when the Supreme court struck down term limits, they said only restrictions on qualifications for Congress and the President can be enforced.
If Congress did try to pass a law saying that a conviction for child porn would disqualify you from federal office it would be struck down.
The only crimes that can get you disqualified for federal office are Insurrection and Treason, and that's only because section 3 and section 5 give Congress that authority.
Lunacy? It goes without saying that Section 3 did so. Otherwise it couldn't have been constitutionally applied to the confederates. (Well, not if it were actually a criminal punishment, as you claim.)
Congress used to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, they could implement section 3 criminal statue for future insurrections and if they needed to implement legislation for administering disqualification under section 3 for past conduct in the civil war.
But of course the latter situation never really was an issue because the Army administered elections in the southern states until the end of reconstruction in 1877, and all Confederates were pardoned by the President by 1868, and amnestyed by Congress by 1872.
Loss of eligibility for office is not a criminal penalty. There is no right to office in the first place. All the people who do not meet all the standards for holding office are disqualified. Moreover, among those qualified there is still no right to hold office. In American constitutionalism, office is the gift of the joint popular sovereign—a gift which they are free to bestow or withhold for any reason or for no reason. Sovereign power is always unconditional and exercised at pleasure.
Still, the practical problem of arbitrary partisan bias is real and needs constraint. The answer is not some cause of action by a frustrated candidate. That person lacks standing because nothing he is entitled to has been lost. Likewise, no court with judges who have sworn an oath to defend the Constitution is legitimately empowered to award to a candidate an office from which the candidate is Constitutionally barred.
What can justifiably occasion a remedy is misconduct by the sworn official who wrongly purports to disqualify from office a candidate who is actually qualified. That official violates his own oath, and ought to be liable for punishment for doing so. Whether that punishment should be criminal, civil, or by impeachment is a question which could be considered constructively, while remaining within constitutional constraints.
Nobody else is arguing that this involves some "right to hold office", Stephen.
Seriously, terrorist-boy?
not guilty, one issue I see right off the bat is that section 3 doesn't say anything about whether a candidate can appear on the ballot, it excludes the person from serving in office. I suppose technically, you could leave the person on the ballot and have the election, all while determining whether or not that person is excluded from serving in office.
A Secty. of State would have to cite some state law that say being qualified for the office is a prerequisite for appearing on the ballot. There are other qualifications, of course, such as age (in the US Constitution) or garnering a certain number of signatures (a state-law requirement.)
That sounds right. It becomes similar to the case of Madison Cawthorn in NC.
"We must not forget that we are talking about empowering partisan politicians such as state Secretaries of State to disqualify their political opponents from the ballot, depriving voters of the ability to elect candidates of their choice."
I did not know, until I read this sentence, that decisions of state Secretaries of State were final and could not be appealed or contested in any court of law. Thanks!
Given the time spans involved for an election, they typically are unappealable. Many ad-hoc changes in 2020 turned out to be illegal, but the challenges couldn't be litigated in time to be fixed before November 2020.
Filing requirements are well in advance of the election date, for obvious reasons. If we're talking about a major party candidate like Trump, the latest date for filing for 2024 (according to Ballotpedia) is 3/12/24 (Oregon).
Government efforts to keep a candidate off a ballot could easily follow the filing date, potentially by a long time. As late as the day before an election, a state might revise the contents of those ballots, although at great effort and likely imperfect compliance.
What experience or knowledge do you have of election processes in the various states? What you suggest is quite literally impossible in every state where I have served as an election judge (Pennsylvania, Maryland, North Carolina).
It think there is enough time because if they deny primary ballot access, then there is some time for appeal. If they deny general election ballot access to the nominee after they were on the primary ballot, that's a slam dunk injunction or writ guaranteeing a spot on the ballot.
Baude said as much, no due process for insurrectionists.
He also also said Bills of Attainder are in order.
There is nothing conservative about what Baude wrote.
The lame attempts for the knives to come about about Baude…
Look, Sarcastr0, he literally SAID that the bill of attainder prohibition wasn't applicable to Section 3. If that's bringing out a knife, Baude handed him the blade and showed him where to thrust it in.
He literally explained why that was the case. You are appealing to consequences, like the strawman liberals you regularly inveigh against.
Hypocrite.
Brett, the language of section 3 and 5 literally gives Congress the power of passing a bill of attainder in this situation, to exclude the person from serving in office. There's no controversy, from a constitutional standpoint. The amendment changed the ban on bills of attainder for one particular circumstance.
No, the language of Section 3 does NOT do that. It simply doesn't.
It clearly is an exception to the prohibition on ex post facto enactments, since it had no point except to be applied to Confederate actions before it was ratified. Even that is an inference, but a reasonable one.
But NOTHING in the text suggests that Congress can simply vote that somebody is guilty! Plenty of amendments have enabling legislation clauses, which are NOT read to permit bills of attainder.
That is exactly what the text not only suggests, but states. Congress, and only Congress, is given the power to enforce the exclusion. The text does not require conviction before an article 3 court. How else would Congress enforce that provision? They determine that the person engaged in insurrection, and they pass legislation excluding the person from holding office. In your view, what else does the amendment require?
And that legislation would be a bill of attainder, would it not? It punishes a specific person without a court finding of guilt.
Sigh. Once again: guilt/innocence are criminal questions. Congress would not be voting someone guilty. Congress would be voting someone an insurrectionist, and therefore ineligible under the 14th amendment.
Just like, under Article 1, Section 5, a house of congress can decide that someone is ineligible to serve in that house for not meeting the constitutional criteria.
"the knives to come out"?
Seriously this is, as EV pointed out, a argument among friends.
The worst thing I will say about Baude is I used to think he was very thoughtful and level headed. Now I would say he's generally level headed but can get a little excitable at times.
You can get a little excitable too, especially when you start thinking about chicken sex, level headed never comes to mind.
Among the academics sure. The gate keeping bullshit commenters trying to excommunicate Baude are the kind of shallow purity police I have no time for on the left either.
Well I'm certainly not going to throw Baude under the bus, in fact I was looking for an opportunity to quote him supporting the Tillman/Blackman position that section 3 doesn't apply to President or VP anyway:
"Indeed, Professor Tillman’s theory makes sense of patterns that most of us never saw. It brings order out of chaos. That is not to say that his position has been conclusively proven. But at this point, I think he has singlehandedly shifted the burden of proof....
We need more scholars likeProfessor Tillman."
Then of course Baude does have a section in his paper where he addresses whether the president and VP are officers under the United States, but he hardly took up his own challenge to "bear the burden of proof".
My own position is I think Tillman and Blackman are correct about the distinction between Officers under/of, etc. at the founding, but those technical distinctions may well have evaporated by the time section 3 was drafted.
But it certainly isn't a completely resolved question.
So you too believe that the framers of 14A were greatly concerned about insurrectionists holding the reins of federal power, but they didn't mind if the insurrectionist was President?
I say what I believe above, maybe you need to read it two or 3 times so you can understand it:
“My own position is I think Tillman and Blackman are correct about the distinction between Officers under/of, etc. at the founding, but those technical distinctions may well have evaporated by the time section 3 was drafted.”
It was Baude who said in 2016 that the burden of proof had shifted on the question, but to be fair, neither Tillman or Baude were referring to section 3 in that article. But I think there would be a notable incongruity, although hardly insurmountable, if "office... under the United States" meant two different things different places in the constitution.
It's not a question of multiple readings, it's a question of understanding the implications of your belief that "officers" doesn't include the Presidency, either in 1789 or 1868. Your (and Tillman et al's) position means that the framers were so concerned about corruption that they included provisions against it in the constitution, but then excluded the office of the Presidency from anti-corruption provisions. Does that make sense to you?
Yeah that’s why I said read it again, I’m completely open to the possibility the phrase included the presidency in 1868.
As for reading it to exclude the President in 1789, that makes more sense if you are familiar with European culture at the time, such gifts to foreign leaders were an essential part of diplomacy, and the idea that they couldn’t personally keep them would be offensive.
And you might scratch your head over the fact there is a separate Presidential Emoluments clause that has no prohibition against foreign gifts, but forbids payments from states.
It's a shame you are unable to distinguish people arguing on principle, versus those advocating for their preferred political outcomes.
I for one would welcome Trump never appearing on a ballot ever again. I've never voted for him, never will.
I am deeply troubled by what Baude is arguing for here, and that others are twisting themselves into pretzels because the Orange Man is Bad. When I strongly suspect that if it were one of their guys being threatened, they would be arguing the other way. Like the day someone BLM adjacent gets taken off the ballot for "supporting" the summer of 2020 riots. That is the way the game is played. I would oppose that for the same reason I'm against what is being argued for here. It's a subjective standard which violates due process.
You're lying.
"Third, to the extent of any conflict with prior constitutional rules, Section Three repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them. This includes the rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment."
You are amazingly fond of declaring easily demonstrated facts to be "lies".
"repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them"
Whereas you simply can't read.
Those are harsh words David, I won't call you a liar, I will merely say you are confused. As Brett quotes Baude directly above, my characterization of his position on due process is completely fair.
Now you could counter that Baude was contradictory, or didn't mean it, was posturing, etc.
But don't claim he didn't say it.
Your just so committed to an outcome your reading comprehension has failed in favor of what you want to see.
Your interpretation of the text is not even an outlier, it's not a possible way to read it.
Or maybe you just don't know what due process is, and think there is only criminal due process?
I originally thought Baude was right, but commenters in the previous thread did give me some doubt. You're not engaging with the actual text at all though, just the text in your head.
Same with Brett, actually.
No, its plain English:
"Third, to the extent of any conflict with prior constitutional rules, Section Three repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them. This includes the rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment.”
There is no other reading. Why would you even bring up bills of attainder, in any context, let alone saying section 3 "repeals or supersedes" the absolute constitutional prohibition against them, unless of course that's what he meant.
Of course he's contradictory in a paper that long talking about law, otherwise it would be a very short paper.
The text of section 3 and 5 clearly and unambiguously supersedes the absolute constitutional prohibition against bills of attainder, for this particular situation. I haven't read the entire paper yet, but as Nieporent has shown, Prof. Baude does NOT make the argument that people excluded under section 3 do not have remedy through the federal courts. He specifically writes the opposite. So I think you and Brett are taking one sentence that mentions due process, and creating the straw man that he is arguing excluded people have no access to court.
It is sensible to say that it over-rides the prohibition on ex post facto laws, because it was adopted after the Civil war, to impose its effects on Confederates based on what they'd don before its enactment.
But there's flatly no reason to bring up the prohibition on bills of attainder, except to suggest that Congress could simply, by a vote, make somebody guilty for Section 3 purposes. Which WOULD be a bill of attainder, which is to say, "an act of a legislature declaring a person or group of people guilty of a crime, and punishing them, without conviction in the ordinary course of judicial proceedings".
They absolutely meant that it allowed Congress to enact bills of attainder.
"Guilty for Section 3 purposes" is not a thing. There's no finding of guilt required.
So what is required then?
Not having engaged in an insurrection, I guess.
So who makes that determination?
They bring it up, because they argue that passing legislation enforcing section 3 would be a bill of attainder. And I think they are correct. How else would Congress enforce the exclusion? And what prevents an amendment to the constitution from superseding previous text? Isn't that the whole point?
I think you are obviously wrong, if section 3 "unambiguously" supersedes the prohibition against bills of attainder then it would actually use that term in section 3.
I'll go further and say any lawyer making that argument to the Supreme Court would be shaking in his boots as he spoke.
In fact if you read Congress's own view of its section 5 authority, its clear neither Congress or the courts believe any section of the 14th amendment overrides protections found elsewhere in the constitution.
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt14-S5-2/ALDE_00000851/
For instance:
"Several of these laws were general civil rights statutes that broadly attacked racial and other discrimination on the part of private individuals and groups as well as by the states, but the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional or rendered ineffective practically all of these laws over the course of several years."
"City of Boerne v. Flores1 illustrates that the Court will not always defer to Congress’s determination as to what legislation is appropriate to enforce the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment. "
"The Court was quite clear that, under its responsibilities of judicial review, it was the body that would determine that a state law was impermissible and that a federal law passed pursuant to Section 5 was necessary and proper to enforce Section 1."
But actually I'd like to see Congress FAFO what the court would think about a bill of attainder.
I just don't see how you can get around the fact that section 3 states "...shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against..." It does not say "...shall have been convicted of engaging in insurrection or rebellion against..." Couldn't they have written that if that is what they meant? By what authority do you add that requirement now? And if it isn't a requirement, how else does Congress enforce the provisions of section 3? They make the determination, and they pass legislation enforcing the exclusion.
So who determines if one is or is not an insurrectionist?
Christopher Charles Morton?
No, its plain English:
"Third, to the extent of any conflict with prior constitutional rules, Section Three repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them. This includes the rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment.”
There is no other reading. Why would you even bring up bills of attainder, in any context, let alone saying section 3 "repeals or supersedes" the absolute constitutional prohibition against them, unless of course that's what he meant.
Of course he's contradictory in a paper that long talking about law, otherwise it would be a very short paper. And of course it gives away his whole game, he didn't intend for his paper to have any impact moving the needle legally, he's having some fun, and nothing wrong with having a fun and outrageous and unserious paper to discuss on a Sunday morning.
In his paper, Baude said:
It seems to me Baude is arguing states can do as they wish. They can have judicial review or not. If they choose not to, due process is not implicated. I’m not at all clear where Baude thinks federal judicial review is mandated (if at all). Is it triggered by the person running for a federal office?
What does the bit about federal jurisdiction mean to you ?
The part you're ignoring, terrorist-boy, is "to the extent of any conflict."
Maybe there's no conflict, in which case due process applies entirely.
Amendments always supersede the original text "to the extent there are conflicts." Otherwise they wouldn't work. Baude's statement is a totally uncontroversial tautology.
You guys must really be scared to be behaving so delusionally.
Oh good god, Randal. Don’t embarrass yourself that way.
There are always conflicts under the law. If, as Baude advocates, the Secretary of State of Wisconsin unilaterally strikes Trump from the primary ballot, Trump disagrees, that’s a conflict.
Baude said, in that paragraph at least, Trump is not entitled to due process because section 3 is self executing and overrides the due process clause of the 5th amendment (but not the 14th amendment due process that applies to state courts).
If there is no possibility of conflicts what are we arguing about, why is Baude saying one thing and McConnell another?
But its not a serious position and Baude knows it, Trump is entitled to full access to the courts and due process under the laws. And anyone that thinks the courts would countance claiming that the determining the scope and enforcement of section 3 should be done under anything other than normal constitutional order is dillusional.
You seem very confused, terrorist-boy.
The conflict Baude is talking about is between provisions of different amendments, not between different people.
No, he didn't say it, as Brett's quote shows. Above, I quoted what Baude actually said, which was exactly the opposite:
To reiterate: what Baude said — what Brett quoted — was that if there were a conflict between due process and the disqualification clause, then the latter would prevail.
The slippery slope objection would carry more weight if it was a regular occurence that candidates have engaged in the borderline grey area of conduct arguably covered by Section 3. But of course, that's not the case. Trump is the only major presidential candidate since the 14th Amendment was adopted who has done anything of the sort. Hopefully, he'll be the last one for a very long time to come. But there's no litany of other candidates who have anything to worry about here. It's just him, because he's the only one who has done this extraordinarily heinous thing that even implicates the question.
The idea that Section 3 requires criminal conviction, or that Congress somehow implicitly made it so just by passing a criminal law that also covers some of the same conduct, is indefensible in light of the history. The vast majority of ex-Confederates were never prosecuted, much less convicted, of any crime. But they were obviously covered by Section 3. That was the whole point.
There was other evidence of their rebellion: oaths of loyalty to the Confederacy, surrender/parole under arms to the Union Army. Coincident with a federal declaration of an armed rebellion by the president, ratified by Congress. All that was sufficient to disqualify such individuals, and no one at the time questioned their legitimacy, despite the absence of any criminal conviction for insurrection.
That’s why the Civil War context is both unique and irrelevant to the events of 2021.
"We must not forget that we are talking about empowering partisan politicians such as state Secretaries of State to disqualify their political opponents from the ballot, depriving voters of the ability to elect candidates of their choice."
Dr, if I may. All politicians are partisans and hold their policy to partisanship. Who empowered them to apply the Constitution? Their voting masses, whom now expect those elected officials to uphold the provisions of the Constitution? If I was elected as a SoS, and I would have to DQ an opponent from the ballot, I sure would, in accordance with the Constitution and the responsibility given by my voting citizens.
From time to time I have mentioned a notion of mine which I term, "decapitated constitutionalism." By that I mean the widespread tendency in recent legal and political thought to ignore an active role for the sovereign People in American public life. Quite often, that tendency manifests in insistence that courts—which are part of government and not sovereign—are empowered to do things which constrain sovereign power. That typically shows up when someone mistakenly insists on a due process right which cannot be vindicated except by constraint of some explicit or implicit aspect of sovereignty. It is never true that any court has a legitimate power to do any such thing.
Election issues are a particularly fertile field in which such weeds grow rampantly. All the power in elections belongs to the sovereign People jointly. None of it is devolved to government, or to the courts, or to citizens individually. That means, among other things, that no court is empowered to enforce any purported interpretation of the Constitution against the People themselves. The People, after all, are the authors of that sovereign decree. They are themselves completely at liberty to honor its terms, or to ignore some terms, or to replace everything and start over. In doing so they act at pleasure and without constraint. They need not even follow the constitutional amendment process set forward in the Constitution itself.
Those considerations have evident relevance to many of the comments which show up in this thread. The authors of the OP seem largely to grasp the need to order public affairs according to a standard encompassing deference to sovereignty by government, including the courts. Many of the commenters manifestly do not understand that, and instead offer comments which implicate a notion of court supremacy over not only government, but over the sovereign itself.
Not even close. Another term for that is "rebellion" or "insurrection."
Self-interest being what it is, it is never hard to find a judge or a lawyer to insist that courts should wield sovereign power, even against the People themselves. A notable fraction of all the confusions in current American constitutionalism trace to that. Of course the results of that benighted tendency are always muddled and paradoxical at best. What you condemn as rebellion or insurrection if done by the People themselves you admire as due process when done by an overweening court. That puts the order of responsibility backward, and stands American constitutionalism on its head.
So what sovereign power have the Courts wielded against the People themselves?
What about the notion announced in the OP that Shay's Rebellion is an important historical landmark, but with the implication that the January 6 attack on the Capitol is somehow less noteworthy? That strikes me as wildly off the mark. I expect historical reckoning will fairly soon rank the Capitol attack as an event second only to the Civil War itself in the annals of American insurrection, with all the others, including Shay's, reduced to relative footnotes.
You have a long history of nutty expectations. Shays' rebellion (named after Daniel Shays, so an "s" goes before the apostrophe) involved an armed attack on a federal armory, not a disorganized riot. The only point of similarity between J6 and Shays' Rebellion is this:
Similarly, just about the only similarities between the Whiskey Rebellion (which is the one that McConnell gave as an example) and J6 are broad popular sympathy for the cause and that the then-presidents supported using the militia to keep order.
SL,
"historical reckoning will fairly soon rank the Capitol attack a"
that is pure hysteria. Let's see what the courts have to say about the Orange Clown.
I find McConnell's argument more persuasive than Baude's, at least as applied to federal elections. It would not be good to have 50 different standards for what constitutes "insurrection", and what constitutes a fair process for making that determination for federal elective offices. And this is most critical for the presidency.
I’m not familiar with McConnell’s approach to constitutional interpretation generally, but personally I have to look askance at conservatives’ arguments, when they invoke things like absurd or undesirable consequences of textual interpretations.
The Court has made completely clear that it no longer views itself as responsible for ensuring that our legal/political system operate sensibly. They’ve abdicated any responsibility to limit partisan gerrymandering, they’re tightly restricting our ability to regulate political corruption and voting rules that are racially discriminatory, they’re inventing constitutional doctrines to kick important policy questions back to a dysfunctional Congress, and they only just barely avoided declaring that no checks exist on state legislatures’ ability to decide how votes for federal offices are to be counted (and if at all).
To be sure, it would be an obvious problem if every state could decide for itself whether Trump engaged in an “insurrection” that ought to disqualify him from their ballots. But, under this Court’s jurisprudence and the arguments of many conservative constitutional law scholars, that’s not a relevant consideration. The only relevant consideration is what the Constitution itself says. If it gives us a broken result, our only remedy is to amend it.
"f it gives us a broken result, our only remedy is to amend it."
...and of course you decide what is a broken result.
Sigh. Way to not even try to engage.
Sorry to have disappointed you.
Where is their authority under the constitution to tell the states they can't gerrymander? What is the clause in the constitution that disallows partisan gerrymandering?
That's what textualism requires. Not, well its bad.
Racial gerrymandering is right out under the 14th and 15th amendments.
And I for one prefer a paralyzed dysfunctional Congress to an activist dysfunctional bureaucracy.
But political gerrymandering is part of our tradition and history:
"The term gerrymandering is a portmanteau of a salamander and Elbridge Gerry, Vice President of the United States at the time of his death, who, as governor of Massachusetts in 1812, signed a bill that created a partisan district in the Boston area that was compared to the shape of a mythological salamander."
Gerry was a signer of both the Declaration of Independence, and the Articles of Confederation.
Way to completely miss the point.
I don’t have a particular dog in this fight. But I do think that the “scholars” are struggling with the fact that Trump’s actions leading to and resulting in J6 amount to a minor “constitutional crisis” that we haven’t grappled with in those terms.
What did Trump do? Well, in preparation for a potential election loss, he organized a criminal conspiracy to frustrate the will of the voters in various “battleground states.” As the contours of his loss on election day became increasingly clear, the conspiracy narrowed its focus to those states. He challenged election outcomes in court, but he also orchestrated the preparation of alternative electoral slates, pressured secretaries of state, and pushed state legislatures to render elections null and void, sending their own electoral slates to Congress.
He did not arrange for these disputes over electoral slates because he felt that the election was administered in an illegal or illegitimate fashion – creating a dispute over electoral votes would not be the appropriate remedy, even if one actually believed that one or more state elections were illegally or illegitimately administered. (One could, rather, dispute such elections in court, and accept the results from the judicial process after having presented their evidence.) It was a transparent attempt to give the Vice President, presiding over the counting of the electoral votes, a sufficient pretext to reject slates or count only those slates he chose.
And then, on J6 itself, Trump led a rally (along with his various surrogates) during which he inveighed against the results of the election and encouraged his supporters to march on the capitol. That, in itself, was extraordinary. When the crowd took him up on the offer and then invaded the capitol building (remember that some of the planners of the effort had secreted caches of weapons just out DC, “just in case”), he did little to nothing to stop them, despite receiving several direct entreaties from members of Congress to do more. So he sought to end his term, a term that brought a daily litany of outrageous corruption and demonstrations of incompetence, by a final dereliction of duty.
This was a multifaceted, deeply orchestrated series of events. Was it an “insurrection” sufficient to disqualify him from ever holding office again? That might not be the right term for it, no. But certainly his actions, and those of his co-conspirators and accomplices, betrayed everything that this nation stands for. These people have a deep and utter contempt for this nation’s highest principles, all in search of greater power and wealth. Every single one of them ought to be barred from ever holding public office, and the lawyers and law professors among them ought to be shunned by everyone in the legal industry. They should be disbarred, criminally prosecuted, blocked from public office, blacklisted from working for any law or lobbying firm, and so on.
That we may not have any adequate constitutional remedy for what they sought, but failed, to do, is a real constitutional problem.
Have you read the Durham Report?
https://ethicsalarms.com/2023/05/17/assorted-ethics-observations-on-the-durham-report-part-ii-the-substance/
What our law enforcement establishment did was to give the illusion of credibility to a hoax authored by the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) In doing so, they seriously damaged their own credibility and reputation, which will have major repercussions far beyond the 2020 election for decades to come.
What Trump did was payback. How can payback possibly be wrong?
'What Trump did was payback.'
No, what he did was try to stay in power even though he lost the election. he and his supporters made and make no end if inane claims, but none of them ever stand up in, for example, courts of law.
There was nothing wrong with that, not after what was done to Trump, as Jack Marshall detailed in his blog post.
Nige: "what [Trump] did was try to stay in power even though he lost the election"
You: "There was nothing wrong with that, not after what was done to Trump."
What kind of country do you want America to be, exactly?
Without payback, these people will do it again.
You want Trump to stay in power despite losing an election.
Again: What kind of country do you want America to be, exactly?
For the Justice Department's misdeed, payback is justified at any and all costs.
Nah. That sounds tough but makes zero sense.
What, hold Trump to account? Can't have that.
Jack Marshall knows less about ethics than he does about the influence of Immanuel Kant on evidentiary approaches in 18th Century Bulgaria. (That entire post is based on the insane premise that the U.S. investigative agencies should have based on their action on Russian propaganda.)
There was quite a lot wrong with that, using various lies as a pretext to justify it really gives the game away.
You're relying on an explicitly partisan opinion as though it were proof.
But I think the big thing is how you think 'it was payback' justifies anything, legally.
How is Jack Marshall's opinion partisan?
Talking about the Durham Report.
What is partisan about that?
It's partisan in the same way as all the proof of election fraud that evaporated in court was partisan.
It looks like you've linked me to the top level of a steaming pile of Josh Blackman-like takes. I'm not tracing through that shit to determine how close to reality it actually strikes.
Durham's track record in court doesn't exactly seem to support these hysterical takes.
I mean, honestly. "Have you read the Durham Report?" *Links to a gloss on a gloss that draws wild conclusions from cherry-picked portions of a big nothingburger report*
You consider the use of federal law enforcement resources to undermine a President a "nothingburger".
What they did was wrong.
Payback is justified.
Durham lost more charges in court than he won, barely brought any in the first place, and made no recommendations for changing anything about the way the DOJ or FBI operate. He faulted the investigators for not digging hard enough to find reasons not to investigate Trump.
It was a nothingburger. The report itself was heavily slanted, and on top of that you're relying on a right-wing characterization of an op-ed in a right-wing outlet that itself plays fast and loose with the facts. So you're either lying outright or so easily led by the nose by pundits that it would be pointless to debate with you.
‘You consider the use of federal law enforcement resources to undermine a President a “nothingburger”. ‘
That’s exactly what it turned out to be, yes.
The upshot of your 'payback' is that you support the insurrection.
You consider colluding with an enemy country to win an election a nothingburger?
Where is their evidence that Trump did that, actually collude. Where did the Mueller report say that?
An interest in colluding is not collusion. That someone, somewhere in the campaign may have briefly engaged with Russian assets is not collusion.
The popular narrative is that Trump's 2016 election was illegitimate because of Russian interference. How does one possibly measure that? It's BS. Just as much as Trump's claim that the 2020 election was stolen. Stolen by who? How?
Let's assume that you are right that ultimately there was no collusion. That it no way supports the notion that it was improper to investigate whether there was collusion.
(Please be clear: I am not saying that Russia's activities — whether in collusion with Trump or unilateral — caused Trump's victory. As you say, there is no way to determine that. And even under the most expansive theories, there's no evidence that Russia literally changed actual votes that had been cast. Influenced voters, maybe. But no actual election fraud.)
I guess it's a good thing I didn't say it was improper to investigate whether there was collusion. Personally I was in favor of investigating it. Both because it was a serious charge, something I could possibly believe a scumbag like Trump did, and because if he didn't do it, the resulting investigation would clear the air. Just like many people (starting with Adam Schiff), I expected Mueller to find something.
The problem now is that some people want to pretend the Mueller did find something. Or that he didn't because the cover-up was so complete it prevented him from finding the truth.
Putin's goal has never been to elect Trump, though I'm sure he was happy it worked out in 2016. His goal was to make people distrust our elections. Mission accomplished. Both side's partisan extremists continue to assist him in that.
Ejercito, who I was responding to, did. And you responded to my response.
Mueller did find things. He found — as did the GOP-led Senate Select Committee on Intelligence — that Russia wanted Trump to win (contrary to your subsequent claim) and undertook efforts to help Trump win, and that Trump was aware of and welcomed those efforts. (He did not find an explicit agreement between Trump and Russia, which would've been needed to charge Trump. If he were allowed to, but OLC says that a sitting president can't be prosecuted. Which is why Mueller did not try to prosecute Trump for obstruction even though he found lots of evidence of that.)
What criminal conspiracy? None of that is an insurrection. Unless the definition of lawfare has really expanded.
Welcome to another trip down Speculation Street and Hypothetical Highway.
When is an "insurrection" not an insurrection?
Apparently when you say it isn't.
So I get to be the decider?
Your elected representatives do.
A lot of the arguments here seem to be that Baude’s academic paper is too academic.
The argument is that he is interpreting the law beyond reason.
Beyond reason seems to be that you don't like the consequences.
I happen to believe that's a fine legal standard. But it is definitely not an academic standard.
If there was a constitutional provision that plainly gave the armed forces of the United States the power to depose the President from office if they felt that the President was legally disqualified, we would have to live with that, unless and until such provision is duly repealed.
Baude and Paulsen, however, argue that "but no prior judicial decision, and no implementing legislation, is required for Section Three to be carried out by officials sworn to uphold the Constitution whose duties present the occasion for applying Section Three's commands." Thety argue that "It can and should be enforced by every official, state or federal, who judges qualifications. "
the military takes an oath to the Constitution. Under their argument, the military can enforce the provisions of Section 3 by their own initiative and judgment. Their interpretation would effectively transform a provision excluding insurrectionists from service to a provision giving a military junta the power to depose elected officials based on what they feel is insurrection, aid, or comfort.
'[officials] whose duties present the occasion for applying Section Three’s commands' wouldn't involve the military off the break - that's why everyone is talking about secretaries of state.
The Constitution specifies that the president is commander-in-chief.
If the President is in fact disqualified, the military would not be bound by the President’s orders.
And of course, by Baude and Paulsen's reasoning, secretaries of state can kick FJB off the ballot for providing aid or comfort to the Taliban.
In your scenario the President has been elected, but then got disqualified?
You don't seem to be thinking clearly.
In the argument presented, Trump on Jan 7 was this.
Will Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen argued that "Section Three covers a broad range of conduct against the authority of the constitutional order, including many instances of indirect participation or support as "aid or comfort." "
One could argue that botching the withdrawal from Afghanistan constituted providing aid and comfort to the Taliban. Does this mean state and local election officials could exclude FJB from the ballot due to believing this? Baude and Paulesen argued that "It follows that Section Three's disqualification may and should be followed and carried out by all whose duties are affected by it." Are they implying that the military could depose FJB if they felt that his botching of the Afghanistan withdrawal constituted aid or comfort to the Taliban?
Did they even consider what their argument implies?
“Section Three covers a broad range of conduct against the authority of the constitutional order, including many instances of indirect participation or support as “aid or comfort.”
Many != all.
Try again.
And who the heck is FJB?
How do you draw the line? Baude and Paulsen are clearly going for a maximalist definition of insurrection, even going so far as to include "many instances of indirect participation or support" (emphasis added)
Why do you need to draw a line? No one is relying on 'aid or comfort' as the applicable standard.
Baude and Paulsen are.
Yes, I was thinking of treason and missed that.
The text is right there: "...shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
So mea culpa;I was mistaken.
That being said, leaving Afghanistan was not giving aid and comfort to the Taliban.
If you want to pretend that's an argument that would carry the day, than just about anything would apply, and why have any standards at all?
Baude and Paulsen specifically wrote “many instances of indirect participation or support”.
The bungled withdrawal of Afghanistan would at least be indirect support of the Taliban.
Taliban looks to me like it’s about where it would be post pullout no matter how the execution went.
You are probably right.
Under Baude's and Paulsen's argument, a Secretary of State can exclude FJB from the ballot, using his own, personal standards of what constitutes aid or comfort.
I see nothing saying such an action would be subjective and unreviewable.
Are you excluding the middle between full on criminal trial and no process at all?
So what do you have in mind. What process would be necessary to determine if FJB had in fact provided aid or comfort to the Taliban, and is thus disqualified under Section 3?
One of those committee sessions with Repulicans lying about their findings and then the actual transcripts showing something completely different?
I would not venture to declare what process is due. That's for courts, and I'm not interested in doing their job for them. (A job I do not anticipate coming up in real life)
The point is that it need be more than nothing and less than full criminal bells and whistles.
Your reply is exactly why the Founders defined treason so carefully, including the evidentiary threshold (2 witnesses in court). No accident.
This discussion again shows why that was necessary. Constructive treason by another name, in service to a political end.
Not really with a straight face.
But I fully expect some red state secretaries to give it a try. Whaddya think? Something tells me you'll cheer them on when it happens.
Actually, I will not, as long as no state secretary had esxcluded Trump for insurrection.
There is this principle called tit-for-tat.
Sounds more like an attempt at a threat.
"Did they even consider what their argument implies?"
It implies their elite friends can do away with democracy when it suits them. The Democrat party is tired of voters and voting. Elections mean interacting with the wrong sort of people. They don't intend to continue doing that much longer.
What did you have to say when Trump lied about the election being fraudulent and his mob tried to overturn the election results and it turned out he was conspiring to do the same? Where's the respect for democracy in any of that? Or did you think the wrong sort of people had voted for the wrong sort of person?
Remind me which party is in favor of any law, rule, or regulation that makes it more difficult for people to vote?
Like the Republican Party in Georgia was? The NEW JIM CROW and all? Cost Atlanta the ASG.
Then they had an actual election in 2022 and there were no problems. A big survey by UG afterward indicated that everyone was fine with how it went. No problems voting. Even 90+% of blacks in Georgia were satisfied or very satisfied with the new procedures.
In Texas I looked and looked to try to see what the NEW JIM CROW was and the worst specific complaints I could find were regarding the elimination of 24 hour voting and the elimination of drive through voting. Hardly the stuff of Lester Maddox.
Is it just maybe possible that the stuff about republicans and voting are a little overstated by a hostile media?
Some facts: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_efforts_to_restrict_voting_following_the_2020_presidential_election
There was no one left alive to notice, after net neutrality and the Trump tax cuts killed everyone.
I didn't say anything about Jim Crow on Steroids or whatever silly hyperbole Democrats used. But the facts are these: if there is any attempt anywhere to:
1) Shorten the early voting period.
2) Shorten voting hours.
3) Lessen the number of drop boxes.
4) Restrict absentee balloting (either by length of time, or who is eligible, or the reasons why a person is entitled to vote absentee).
(And probably other things I'm not thinking of at the moment.)
99.9% of the time the officials pushing these changes are going to be Republican.
I'm not saying all of these will have a meaningful impact. I'm not even saying every change is bad. (For example, I think laws against ballot harvesting are probably a good idea, on balance. And I have no objection to ID laws in principle, though I don't think they do much.) But every proposed change by Republicans is an attempt to act in the same direction; that's not a coincidence.
There are 3 voting precincts (3 lines/check-ins) where I vote at my local high school, in-person. I can’t remember from one year to the next which mine. If I'm stupid enough to get in the wrong line and get up to the table, I have to start over and get in the light line. Maybe if I ever do this, I should demand a provisional ballot because my rights are being denied.
So I find it hard to believe slightly decreasing the voting hours/days from one year to the next is going to impact people’s ability to vote. I wouldn’t expect the average voter to remember exactly when early voting starts, or the hours. If it were me, I’d have to look it up.
I could certainly believe changes to absentee/mail-in voting would. But I also don’t think that the (Democratic) party machine looking to leverage that is going to leave their voters on their own to figure out any such change. Especially in light of the recent voting behavior, where Democrats absolutely took advantage of both early and mail-in voting.
Voter suppression is a useful dog whistle to demonize the other side. Nothing turns out the vote like yelling suppression. I personally yell that out loud every 4 years when I have to wait in line at my suburban voting precinct for over an hour.
At risk of stating the obvious, all the lawyering on both sides seems like vain attempts to penetrate the political filter, to which the majority of Americans are tuned out.
Welcome to legal academia. Take it for fun, not as politically meaningful.
But just think how much better the world would be if these guys united around legalizing shrooms?
Well, it'd improve the comments here, that's for sure.
What Calebresi, Baude, et al. are proposing is hardly conservative, libertarian, and indeed is profoundly anti-liberal in the classical sense. In their zeal to get Trump, they would widen the definition of “insurrection” to the point where anyone advocating for a change in the status quo of federal governance, i.e., “petitioning the government for a redress of grievances”, could be argued to fall under it and thus prevented from running for office by any actor in the chain, partisan or otherwise. All that would be required is that someone, anyone, takes the argument too far? Well, they do say ahead of time that the First Amendment would be no bar to this authoritarian power grab.
In the real world, and in historical terms, “insurrection” is a big word. It requires a coherent attempt to take over the organs of government, through actual violence. Someone on the same side of an argument of process taking a dump on Nancy Pelosi’s desk does not meet the bar.
“William Roper: “So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!”
Sir Thomas More: “Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?”
William Roper: “Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!”
Sir Thomas More: “Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!”
And then there's you lot, burning down every law to protect Trump. Who isn't even as cool or sexy as the Devil. Reputedly.
What laws do you allege were burned down?
I have seen a determination here to dismiss fraud, conspiracy, riot, theft of government documents and mishandling of classified documents as not being crimes worthy of prosecution, in the cases of Trump and his supporters.
The question is, to whom does the Constitution give the power of determining whether or not an insurrection occurred? Ultimately it's the federal courts, right? Congress could enforce a section 3 exclusion, but the excluded person could challenge that determination in federal court, and the court would have to decide.
So all this handwringing about how Prof. Baude's position would result in anti-democratic evil seems a little over the top, to me.
By that same rationale, Congress could enforce such an exclusion against FJB for botching the Afghanistan withdrawal, and a federal court would have to determine if botching that withdrawal constituted providing aid or comfort to the Taliban.
Barring the extremely unlikely event of Congress passing new legislation, we are stuck with the current 18 USC 2383 for the courts to adjudicate, if Jack Smith decides to charge Trump with it.
The bottom line is there is a law against insurrection on the books now, that would almost certainly bar Trump if convicted.
Shit or get off the pot, as Nixon once reportedly said to Eisenhower.
Right, but that's entirely different from Congress choosing to enforce section 3. Which is also pretty unlikely.
'In their zeal to get Trump'
The amazing play-acting of wide-eyed innocence at the merest suggestion of the possibility that Trump could even be capable of doing something wrong.
Which of their arguments argue for broadening the definition of insurrection to include petitioning the government?
You could easily broaden it to anyone who participated in the BLM riots, or gave them aid and comfort.
That is if you want to use your own definition and not follow the law, and gain a conviction under 18 USC 2383: Rebellion or insurrection.
Funny how that works, follow the law under established procedures with a judge and jury and most fears of systematic abuses evaporate.
YOU could easily do that, perhaps. Doesn't seem like that's in the paper, though.
Funny how that works, follow the law under established procedures with a judge and jury and most fears of systematic abuses evaporate.
Why have civil actions at all??
That's up to Congress to decide what is a criminal matter at what is civil.
Take it up with them.
Where in the law is the definition of "insurrection"?
Suppose the US Constitution required that the president be admitted to practice law in some US jurisdiction.
Then the highest court in each state would determine whether a person was fit to practice law on the basis of the state's rules of professional conduct for an attorney.
If all the states, in which an attorney was admitted to practice law, determined the attorney was no longer fit to practice law, the attorney would no longer be eligible for the presidency.
The biggest flaw in the Baude paper is Part IV-C which makes the case for their definition of insurrection and applies it to the Trump actions. The first section hyperbolizes the J6 riot itself. They attempt to address this, but it is mere handwaving and them saying, "no we aren't being hyperbolic" but it does not make the case that this riot was different from any other historical riots in Washington DC around various federal buildings. So part 1 falls flat on its face as sheer tomfoolery. Part 2 of section C just follows from the conclusion that there was an actual insurrection, so is question begging, and part 3 emphasizes Trump's speech on J6, but ignores the true fact that the riot preceded the end of the speech, breaking the causality alleged in part 3. Moreover, part 3 also discusses Trump's inaction. However congressional records show that the far more egregious inaction was done by Pelosi and McConnel who, for over an hour after the Chief of the Capitol police requested reinforcements failed to act on his request. And then even more egregiously Gen Milley who, after the request was approved, failed to move in the troops under his control for another 3+ hours. These people are not implicated in the "beyond Trump" section of other people potentially implicated under this wild legal theory. Instead this section is dedicated to a list of other people who engaged in lawsuits or rhetoric that Baude et al find to be factually or legally incorrect.
The whole farce about Trump's inaction is just bullshit.
Trump authorized troops to assist in protecting the capitol Jan. 3rd, the Pentagon had authorization in fact Bowser had more than a hundred patrolling the subway, Capitol Hill police refused the offer of troops.
The Pentagon knew they had authorization already from Trump and they didn't claim they needed or even ask for further authorization.
Most of the delay was redeploying the troops that they had, and ass covering to make sure they were complying with the posse comititus act after their offer of troops earlier in the week had been rejected.
Trump was wise to stay completely out of it, imagine the handwringing and panic if Trump tweeted out that he was sending troops to the capital. The same people saying now he should have done something would have been screaming then it was a coup.
"...would have been screaming then it was a coup."
Which is exactly what they are claiming anyway.
Since he was trying to overthrow the election results, any effort to deploy troops would probably have been in service to his idea of a coup.
Source?
Oh, terrorist-boy. When people talk about Trump's inaction, they're not talking about troops (for obvious reasons). They're talking about him sitting there eating pizza and watching them sack the Capitol on TV, until after it had clearly failed in its objective, and only then condemning it and telling his peeps to stand down.
I'm not sure if Trump is guilty of insurrection, but I am sure Jan 6 was far different than other riots which did not attempt to steal an election.
So if a riot happens, and shifts political power from one party to another, but is not related to an election its fine? But if another riot does not shift power, and is related to an election it is not?
What riot attempted to shift power but was not related to an election?
There is always a shift in power when an election is stolen from the victim to the thief.
The rioters who attempted to storm the White House, for example. Their goal was the death of the president and his staff, if they succeeded in taking Trump and Pence, then Pelosi would have become President. If the Secret Service had failed as the Capitol police did, then that would have happened. Many of those in the crowd would have been encouraged, and even bailed out by the BLM bail funds supported by almost every Democrat. So, in the end the difference between the two riots boils down to... the competence of the respective security forces.
J6 arguments that it was an "insurrection" create perverse incentives for politicians to intentionally have kind of crappy security, because then their opposing side's raucous members become terrorists and insurrectionists and the politicians can also magically get painted with that label for giving speeches tangentially related to the violence.
Plus, this isn't even the first recent even where Capitol business was interrupted by people storming the building in an attempt to affect who is in power. On Sept 27, 2018 the Capitol was successfully stormed in an attempt to prevent the confirmation of a SCOTUS justice.
One thing I remember is that the Secret Service was accused of using tear gas on peaceful protesters.
Under the rationale used by Baude and Paulsen, those who spread this narrative are disqualified from public office by Section 3.
No such rationale was used by Baude or Paulsen.
And of course the use of teargas on peaceful protesters was at a different time and place than the fanfic story Allutz just told.
Again, I’m not sure who is guilty of insurrection, but qnyone who storms the White House in order to kill the president should not be holding elective office. Ditto for anyone who tries to steal an election.
What about those who denied, it, downplayed it, or argued that the people who tried to storm the White House were really peaceful protesters?
I'm not expressing any opinion on the specific case you refer to. That being said, anyone can argue that any specific case is not a riot. That's clearly protected speech. Ditto for anyone who argues that Trump did not try to steal the election.
This was not a mere "riot." It wasn't people running around committing random acts of vandalism or violence. I mean, sure, that might describe some of the participants. But overall this was a directed effort targeted at Congress and Mike Pence to "stop the steal."
This "directed effort" ended with people listlessly wandering around. Your description seems hopelessly alienated from the facts on the ground.
I'm really enjoying the comments on this one. Very few blocked comments, too.
Let me offer a possible way to resolve all this.
Let Congress create a special two-judge court to hear all cases where a politician's eligibility for office is at issue under Sec. 3.
One judge to be appointed by the Pres and Senate, the other judge to be appointed by the Supreme Court.
Thus, a Dem judge and a Rep judge.
Provide prompt hearings - no Supreme Court appeals so as to steer clear of their Rep majority.
A tie goes to the challenged politician.
(to keep the judges busy, give them circuit-court duty when they're not doing Sec. 3 cases)
I support the idea of removing Trump's name from the ballot. I can think of no finer way to punctuate the farce that is Biden's America than to give the American people one choice on their ballot, the best our histrionic ruling class has to offer, the senile bribe-taker. We're all tired of these Late Republic death throes. Let's put the American constitutional republic out of its misery and see what rises from the ashes.
"To save democracy, we had to destroy it," can be our epitaph.
Speaking of histrionic!
Here's Alan Dershowitz on the the question, for those who care.
A typically terrible take from Dershowitz. For those who don't feel like clicking through, he's not arguing that you can't disqualify someone without a conviction, like some here are doing. He's taking the broader position — unsupported by anything of any sort at all — that the provision applies only to the civil war. (Not only to things that are as obvious as the civil war, but only to the civil war itself.)
The proponents need to be very careful about this! I can easily see these very same arguments being used against Hillary, Schiff, Pelosi, Schumer, Comey, Strozk and others. The evidence brought out by the Nunes committee and the Durham investigation clearly establish they were engaged in an insurrection to undermine Trump.