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New Article on Insurrection, Rebellion, and Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment
Michael Stokes Paulsen and I have a new draft article: The Sweep and Force of Section Three, that is forthcoming in the Pennsylvania Law Review.
Here is the abstract:
Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment forbids holding office by former office holders who then participate in insurrection or rebellion. Because of a range of misperceptions and mistaken assumptions, Section Three's full legal consequences have not been appreciated or enforced. This article corrects those mistakes by setting forth the full sweep and force of Section Three.
First, Section Three remains an enforceable part of the Constitution, not limited to the Civil War, and not effectively repealed by nineteenth century amnesty legislation. Second, Section Three is self-executing, operating as an immediate disqualification from office, without the need for additional action by Congress. It can and should be enforced by every official, state or federal, who judges qualifications. Third, to the extent of any conflict with prior constitutional rules, Section Three repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them. This includes the rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment. Fourth, Section Three covers a broad range of conduct against the authority of the constitutional order, including many instances of indirect participation or support as "aid or comfort." It covers a broad range of former offices, including the Presidency. And in particular, it disqualifies former President Donald Trump, and potentially many others, because of their participation in the attempted overthrow of the 2020 presidential election.
And from the Introduction:
"Section 3 has long since faded into history."
- Eric Foner[1]
Reports of Section Three's demise are greatly exaggerated. It turns out that Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment remains of direct and dramatic relevance today—a vital, fully operative rule of constitutional law with potentially far-reaching contemporary real-world consequences. Section Three remains in legal force, and has a broad substantive sweep.
Here is what it says:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.[2]
This section of the Fourteenth Amendment was designed to address a particular historical situation and acute problem arising in the aftermath of the Civil War. States in the South had purported (unconstitutionally)[3] to secede from the Union; they had purported to form the (so-called) "Confederate States of America" in rebellion against the authority of the U.S. Constitution; and they had waged a bloody four-year war of rebellion against the United States. Yet even after the rebellion had been defeated, Southern States had audaciously sent to Congress, to serve as U.S. Senators and Representatives, men who had notoriously violated previously sworn oaths to support the U.S. Constitution by subsequently engaging in or supporting secession, rebellion, and civil war against the authority of the United States (to say nothing of those now serving again in their state governments). These men who arrived in Washington included several who had held prominent positions in the rebel Confederacy: "four Confederate generals, four colonels, several Confederate congressmen and members of Confederate state legislatures, and even the vice president of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens."[4]
The Congress that proposed the Fourteenth Amendment rightly regarded the situation as outrageous—not only morally, but practically. If former Confederates held the levers of federal and state government power, effective "reconstruction" of the political order and any hope of extending the full and equal protection of the laws to the newly freed former slaves would be at an end. Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment responded to that outrage, enacting a sweeping disqualification from state and federal office of those who had, as legislators or officers in the federal or state government prior to the War, sworn required oaths of loyalty to the United States Constitution and subsequently engaged in "insurrection or rebellion" against the U.S. constitutional authority or given "aid or comfort" to persons engaged in such acts of insurrection or rebellion. Only a two-thirds majority vote of both houses of Congress could remove that sweeping disqualification.
Fast-forward a century and a half. The events surrounding efforts to overturn the result of the presidential election of 2020 have sparked renewed scholarly, judicial, and political interest in Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment.[5] The core events are familiar to all—the dishonest attempts to set aside valid state election results with false claims of voter fraud; the attempted subversion of the constitutional processes for States' selection of electors for President and Vice President; the efforts to have the Vice President unconstitutionally claim a power to refuse to count electoral votes certified and submitted by several States; the efforts of Members of Congress to assert a similar power to reject votes lawfully cast votes by electors; the fomenting and immediate incitement of a mob to attempt to forcibly prevent Congress's and the Vice President's counting of such lawfully cast votes—all in an attempt to prevent the defeated incumbent President, Donald Trump, from losing power in accordance with the Constitution.
This was undoubtedly a serious assault on the American constitutional order. Not since the Civil War has there been so serious a threat to the foundations of the American constitutional republic. It takes little imagination to describe the efforts to maintain Trump in office, notwithstanding his defeat, as an attempted political coup d'etat. These actions culminated in the incitement and execution of a violent uprising at the Capitol on January 6, 2021—an "insurrection" aimed at preventing Congress and the incumbent Vice President from performing their constitutional responsibilities to count the votes for President and Vice President in the 2020 election. Several of the people involved in these events—most notably the defeated President, Donald Trump—had previously taken oaths to support the Constitution. If they engaged in or gave aid and comfort to an insurrection against the constitutional government, Section Three would appear to bar them from holding office again.
As legal officials and citizens generally have begun to confront the application of Section Three, they have foundered on the most fundamental questions. How does Section Three's disqualification apply—does it apply—to those who planned, supported, encouraged, assisted, incited, or otherwise participated in the events surrounding the attempted overturning of the presidential election of 2020? Does Section Three's century-and-a-half old disqualification, designed for the aftermath of the Civil War, even remain legally operative in the first place? If so, what must be done to enforce Section Three? Does it require implementing legislation or criminal trials (or impeachments) before its disqualification kicks in? How does Section Three interact with the rest of the constitutional order—are its subjects protected by constitutional principles of attainder, anti-retroactivity, due process and free speech? And if Section Three does apply—to what and to whom? What actions count as having "engaged in insurrection or rebellion" against the Constitution of the United States or having "given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof"? Which officials are covered by Section Three's exclusions?
This article attempts to answer these questions. It makes four key points (or clusters of points):
First. Section Three remains legally operative. It is no less part of the Constitution than the other provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment. It is not a dead letter. The Constitution is a binding, authoritative written text, not a collection of specific historical purposes and intentions. Where the text applies, it applies. Its legal force is not limited to the immediate problem or purpose that prompted its enactment. Section Three is not limited to the circumstances of the Civil War and Reconstruction, even if the meaning of its terms may be illuminated by that experience and history.
Nor has Section Three somehow been "repealed" by Congress's two major nineteenth-century statutes granting amnesty to those covered by Section Three. This is not because it would be impossible for a constitutional provision to expire by its terms after a period of time, or upon the occurrence of a particular event, or upon action taken by future actors. Article I, Section 9, for example, created a constitutional prohibition of most congressional regulation of the international slave trade for a period of twenty years—but its prohibition then vanished in 1808. Section Three, however, does not work that way. It imposes a general, prospective, rule of disqualification, which Congress may remove by two-thirds vote of both houses only once it has occurred. Section Three is prospective; Congressional amnesty is retrospective.
Second. Section Three is legally self-executing. That is, Section Three's disqualification is constitutionally automatic whenever its terms are satisfied. Section Three requires no legislation or adjudication to be legally effective. It is enacted by the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment. Its disqualification, where triggered, just is. It follows that Section Three's disqualification may and should be followed and carried out by all whose duties are affected by it. In many cases, Section Three will give rise to judiciable controversies in the courts. In others it will be enforceable by state and federal officials. But no prior judicial decision, and no implementing legislation, is required for Section Three to be carried out by officials sworn to uphold the Constitution whose duties present the occasion for applying Section Three's commands. Section Three is ready for use.
While Section Three's requirements could be made the subject of enforcement legislation by Congress, under its general power under Section Five of the Fourteenth Amendment "to enforce" the provisions of the amendment, no such legislation is constitutionally required as a prerequisite to Section Three doing what Section Three itself does. Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase's circuit court opinion to the contrary, In re Griffin,[6] is simply wrong on this point—full of sleight of hand, motivated reasoning, and self-defeating maneuvers—as we will explain at length. In re Griffin should be hooted down the pages of history, purged from our constitutional understanding of Section Three.
Third. Section Three supersedes (or satisfies) earlier-enacted constitutional provisions to the extent of any supposed conflict between them. Section Three, at the time it was adopted as part of the Constitution, imposed a disqualification from office based on an individual's past conduct. Even if imposition of such a disability might otherwise, if done by statute, have been a forbidden Ex Post Facto law or Bill of Attainder, Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment constitutionally supersedes any prior provision conflicting with its terms.
This principle extends to a more unsettling point. To the extent Section Three's disqualification for having "engaged in insurrection or rebellion" or giving "aid or comfort" to "the enemies" might turn out to be in tension with the First Amendment's protection of freedom of speech, Section Three supersedes the First Amendment to the extent of any true conflict. To be sure, the proper construction of Section Three's terms ("insurrection," "rebellion," "aid and comfort," "enemies") will leave much speech and advocacy completely free. But in the cases where it does not, the terms of Section Three, not the constructions of the First Amendment, decide where the line is.
This leads to the article's fourth and final group of points:
Fourth. Section Three's disqualification is sweeping in its terms. It disqualifies from future office-holding persons who "engaged in"—an expansive and encompassing term connoting many forms of participation in or active support of—a broad swath of activity covered by the terms "insurrection or rebellion" or the giving of "aid or comfort" to "enemies" of the nation or its constitutional order. It applies to a broad swath of civilian, military, and legislative office holders who swore oaths of fidelity to the Constitution, and it disqualifies such persons from holding in the future any of an extraordinarily broad swath of public offices. Taking Section Three seriously, on its own terms, means taking seriously the enormous sweep of the disqualification it creates. And, we will argue, taking Section Three seriously means that its constitutional disqualifications from future state and federal officeholding extend to participants in the attempted overturning of the presidential election of 2020, including former President Donald Trump and others. The substantive terms of Section Three's prohibition are not themselves difficult or inscrutable (even if there might be questions of application at the outer edges of the text's meaning). But they are potentially breathtaking in their straightforward consequences.
In what follows, we develop each of these four core points at length.
Section Three remains a valid, prospective, enforceable, self-executing, broad, and relevant part of our Constitution. It falls to us to fulfill our duties to it. These include the duties of legislative bodies, state and federal election officials, executive officers, and perhaps others to take up the Constitution, including Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment, and wield it faithfully and forcefully against its enemies. Taking Section Three seriously means excluding from present or future office those who sought to subvert lawful government authority under the Constitution in the aftermath of the 2020 election by engaging in or giving aid or comfort to acts of "insurrection or rebellion" against the lawful constitutional order.
[1] Eric Foner, The Second Founding: How the Civil War and Reconstruction Remade the Constitution 85 (2019).
[2] U.S. Const. art. XIV, sec. 3.
[3] See infra note 228 and sources cited there.
[4] Akhil Reed Amar, America's Constitution: A Biography 377 (2005); see also Eric L. McKitrick, Andrew Johnson and Reconstruction 176-179 (1960); Allen C. Guelzo, Reconstruction: A Concise History 25 (2018).
[5] The most important scholarly articles (to which we are deeply indebted) are Gerard N. Magliocca, Amnesty and Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment, 36 Const. Comment.. 87 (2021); Myles S. Lynch, Disloyalty and Disqualification: Reconstructing Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment, 30 William & Mary Bill of Rights J. 153 (2021), both of which were written before the events of January 6, and Daniel J. Hemel, Disqualifying Insurrectionists and Rebels: A How-to Guide, Lawfare (Jan. 19, 2021), available at https://www.lawfareblog.com/disqualifying-insurrectionists-and-rebels-how-guide.
[6] 11 F. Cas. 7, 22-27 (C.C.D. Va. 1869) (No. 5,815).
You can read much more about each of these points by downloading the whole (very long!) article.
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Political reality time: The only time that Section 3 was treated as "self executing" was right after the Civil war, against the beaten down losers of a brutal civil war. Their states were under military occupation! Anybody who'd put up a fight could have been hauled in front of a military tribunal and executed!
Don't confuse what you can get away with doing to an utterly defeated enemy with your knife at his throat, with what you can get away with doing to somebody who's unbeaten under normal circumstances.
This proposal could be the spark that ignites a new civil war, if taken seriously. It's that in your face outrageous.
How do you not grasp that? You want to see a real insurrection, the Capitol building reduced to rubble? This is how you get that.
Feel free to start a campaign to repeal it.
The best Constitutional analysis includes threats of violence.
Don't confuse "What I could argue as a theoretical matter", and "What I could get away with". In theory, Congress could levy a 100% tax on income, and it would be constitutional.
Do you think they could get away with actually doing it?
So your not really posting about Baude’s article, but rather a different topic.
You want to let us know that Trump better be protected from this part of the Constitution lest there be political violence.
Not better, Brett. Stuff can be a bad idea for lots of reasons. Do it my way or there will be blood is not one of them. It’s a heckler’s veto on steroids.
Additionally: it won’t happen. The right has proven they have neither the will nor the ability to do more than threaten.
"So your not really posting about Baude’s article, but rather a different topic."
I'm commenting that Baude's theoretical case is a really bad idea to act upon as a prudential matter. Ridiculously bad.
"You want to let us know that Trump better be protected from this part of the Constitution lest there be political violence."
I want to let you know that Trump should be treated like Victor Berger, not Robert E. Lee. Do you think it was outrageous that Berger got a trial? That he was allowed on the ballot in the first place, or that his conviction being overturned was allowed to matter?
"Additionally: it won’t happen. The right has proven they have neither the will nor the ability to do more than threaten."
There's something mindbogglingly incoherent about asserting BOTH that January 6th was a right-wing insurrectionist attempt to overthrow the government, AND that the right will never do anything but threaten. Make up your mind, will you?
Jan 06 was an attempt with horrifying intent. It was also well far from sparking a war.
And it was the high water mark of an emboldened set of violent yahoos. Between the consequences, and the lack of evidence of the Trump will protect us impunity evident in their social media at the time, threats on the Internet and the occasional political mass shooter is the best this group you speak for in your comment will have for a while.
Yeah, January 6th was far from sparking a war, because it was motivated by something that didn’t piss off a third of the county. Disqualifying a popular major party candidate with scarcely a nod to due process is a lot bigger deal than simply counting the EC votes that were actually certified.
I’m saying that, just as a prudential matter, YOU DON’T PULL THIS CRAP. You give the guy a trial, and accept that you might not convict him.
Baude and company are so desperate to keep Trump out of the Oval office that they’re taking due process and shitting all over it. That does NOT end well.
Baude and company are so desperate to keep Trump out of the Oval office that they’re taking due process and shitting all over it.
Baude is doing legal analysis. If you have an issue with it, you should post about that. Your response to legal analysis is to threaten the US. You should fuck off.
As a prudential matter, threats of violence should not enter into your calculous. And those that make such threats (I mean 'predictions') should fuck off.
You are trying to make a policy argument based *entirely* on a threat. That's what bad people do. Fascists, Nazis, terrorists. Welcome to a really awful club.
Fuck off.
Sacastro - you are showing your true colors with you last comment.
He doesn't particularly care for authoritarian thugs?
"You don't just follow the Constitution when it involves people for whom I gladly dog whistle."
Fixed that bullshit for you, Brett.
Don't like it? Change the Constitution or GTFO. I for one, am not concerned about the threat of general violence from Trumptards.
Brett is absolutely right. And it isn't just a matter of what might happen. As I see it, it's a matter of what should happen.
The contemplated legal maneuver -- declaring Trump ineligible for public office -- is utterly evil. You're depriving millions of people of the opportunity to democratically elect their leader. And no one is naive enough to believe that, if this maneuver is successful, other Republicans will not be similarly "disqualified."
The people proposing this are, I have no other word for it, evil. We must stand up to them.
Well don't just sit in your mommy's basement and type; go get your gun and start your little Civil War!
Here we have, in black and white, a clear example of inciting insurrection.
“You’re depriving millions of people of the opportunity to democratically elect their leader.”
To be specific, it's depriving them of the opportunity to elect *this particular* leader - but this is hardly unique. People are also deprived of the opportunity to democratically elect as their leader a person under the age of 35, or a person who’s not a natural-born citizen. Those two groups together make up about half of the US population. Why is it “evil” to exclude from consideration that 160 million people, but not this thousand or so other people?
"You can still vote, just only for people we approve of. Democracy!"
You can still vote, but only the people the Constitution says are eligible to hold office can hold office. So for example neither Bush nor Obama supporters could elect either of them as president again because the Constitution says they're ineligible.
You can rightly say that's anti-democratic, just like the First Amendment or Second Amendment is anti-democratic by limiting the ability of the people, through their elected representatives, to pass the laws they want, if those laws would restrict free speech or gun ownership in certain cases. That's how the amendments to the Constitution generally work.
It's really a question of due process for invoking Section 3, and Baude is arguing that the only process due is anyone in a position to keep somebody off the ballot deciding that somebody is guilty. That's it, nothing more. In theory the guy printing the ballot could strike Trump's name from it!
Brett's right that Section 3 is not self-executing in this situation, whatever you want to say about whether it applies. Someone would have to come in and rule a democratically elected President couldn't take office, and there would be rioting and violence if anyone purported to. In reality nobody would.
The left has a problem with the political question doctrine. I'm always rather shocked by this- the fact that the Supreme Court is not a bunch of Gods who can enforce every constitutional provision should seem obvious, but no, there are still a bunch of Pollyannas who think that Douglas could actually stop the bombing of Cambodia, etc. (Interestingly, they somehow don't think that Taney could force Lincoln to obey his habeas rulings. Funny how that all works.)
There's nobody to enforce this, and if the American public really elect Trump again, nobody's going to stop him from taking office. There are no dei ex machinas here.
For what it's worth, I agree that as a practical matter, there's zero chance of Trump being taken off of any ballots due to Section 3, other than perhaps as a stunt by a local elections official that's quickly overturned by a higher-ranking state official. This is all brand new (in the modern era at least) and nobody's going to want to go out on that limb.
But that's separate from the question of what the Constitution says and whether it's self-executing or not as a doctrinal matter. For the same reason that the NBC clause is self-executing, and the age clause is self-executing, and the 22nd Amendment is self-executing, Section 3 doesn't inherently need any court to implement it. If Trump were to win a second term, and then decide to run for a third term, do you think his ineligibility would also be a political question that should be left to the voters, and there would (and evidently should) be rioting and violence if anyone purported to keep him from that third term?
There’s no such thing as “self executing as a doctrinal manner” as any sort of useful or important concept. Someone’s going to have to decide “I’m going to ‘enforce’ Section 3”, and that person is going to run into the fact that people who try and prevent the American public from voting for and electing their chosen presidential candidates have no democratic legitimacy and no actual power to do things.
Which makes it, in fact, not self-executing, and indeed, not executing at all. It’s precatory. It’s a political question. And we all should stop pretending that there’s this way for the Constitution(TM) to swoop in and save the great and good American public from its own choices. It doesn’t work that way.
And yes- I actually think that if the American public demanded that a President serve a third term, there's nothing you and a small army of constitutional scholars and law professors could do to stop it, because he would be an elected President and you guys would be nothing.
Actually no, he wouldn't, because the Constitution says that he wouldn't. And that's exactly how the Constitution works.
Trump supporters have a problem with the Constitution. I’m always rather shocked by this- the fact that the Trump is not a God who can ignore every constitutional provision should seem obvious, but no, etc.
The Constitution says lots of things. So what? Some of those things aren't enforceable, and literally nothing's enforceable against a strong public mandate.
I am sorry to call you immature, but you are immature. You are naive. You think that just because you can hold up a piece of paper and say "this is wrong", that the country has to listen to you. That your will, based on what you think that piece of paper says, prevails over the American people and whatever it is they want. That is so... cute.
Actually it isn't cute. It's unrealistic and in fact its dangerous.
"For the same reason that the NBC clause is self-executing, and the age clause is self-executing, and the 22nd Amendment is self-executing, Section 3 doesn’t inherently need any court to implement it."
The difference is that being born in Canada, being 25 years old, or having already been President twice, are not crimes. Insurrection IS a crime.
If you're going to impose on somebody the consequences of a crime, you need to convict them of that crime, first.
It IS true that this wasn't done in the immediate aftermath of the Civil war. An awful lot of things were done in the aftermath of the Civil war that we should never consider doing today. Opposition newspapers being closed down, state legislatures being compelled to ratify amendments at gun point, property being seized without compensation...
It was not a good time for the rule of law and constitutional government.
It's also the case that even in the post-Civil War era, if the American public had wanted a person badly enough who was technically prohibited by the 14th Amendment, they would have been able to get him because you can't actually use courts and apparatchiks to reverse a definitive popular mandate in a presidential election.
Well, thank you for just admitting you don't believe the Constitution matters if you don't like what it says. That's "mature" of you, I guess?
Yes it is. A paper doesn’t have magical qualities. We don’t live in Barbieland, or in the world of a Disney Princess. We live in a reality where there’s a voting public and a such a thing as popular mandate, and where there isn’t some set of Platonic Guardians who will neutrally and with perfect legitimacy overrule the public’s choices as to the leader of the country.
"We live in a reality where there’s a voting public and a such a thing as popular mandate," which matters up until the point that the Constitution overrides that popular mandate. That's why Donald Trump became president and not Hillary Clinton, despite Hillary Clinton receiving more votes, because the Constitution says that the votes that count are the votes of the Electoral College, not the popular vote. It's why McCain-Feingold was found to be unenforceable, as well as D.C.'s firearms regulations, as well as Jim Crow laws, as well as every single other act of Congress or state law that was struck down as unconstitutional. The Constitution acts as a constraint on the powers of the government and the ability of the people to do what they'd otherwise do - even by voting - if they were not so constrained.
Trump beat Hillary because the public accepts the legitimacy of the electoral college and we have norms and traditions obeying it.
None of that exists with respect to technical arguments about Section 3 of the 14th Amendment by a bunch of law professors. Literally nobody cares what law professors think.
"If you’re going to impose on somebody the consequences of a crime, you need to convict them of that crime, first."
Running for President is a privilege. Nothing about this has anything to do with imposing the punishment of a crime, you fucking idiot.
As to Dillan, the combination of circular reasoning "it isn't self-executing because someone might try it and they'll find out it doesn't work," combined with nihilistic "the Constitution doesn't matter" nonsense...you aren't a serious person and are undeserving of discussion.
You two idiots deserve each other.
"Self-executing" is a term often applied to treaties, and means that they are law that can be directly enforced. A treaty that is not self-executing, on the other hand, is one that requires implementing legislation before it has legal effect.
Of course, enforcing a law requires a determination to be made. Someone does indeed have to "come in and rule". But restrictive laws are routinely enforced administratively, there is no general requirement for a prior judicial ruling.
[deleted]
Well put.
"I’m commenting that Baude’s theoretical case is a really bad idea to act upon as a prudential matter. Ridiculously bad."
The only practical question is "what public official will be the first to act on this section as self-executing law?"
Hopefully someone will step up to the plate
Don - "The only practical question is “what public official will be the first to act on this section as self-executing law?”"
I presume your comment was somewhat along the lines is who gets to decide what act crosses the line of being part of an insurrection or rebellion?
Was jefferson davis or general hood or general lee in open rebellion - well yes
Was Trump part of an insurrection - maybe - maybe not? was trump trying to overturn an election or was he trying to correct a faulty process or in his mind a fraudulent election ( personally I think trump is nuts on that issue)
Was Hillary part of a silent insurrection
Is Biden part of a silent insurrection or rebellion with his family corruption.
The problem is who is the arbitrator of the facts
I have the impression that "The Ballot or the Bullet" is highly regarded, but it was before my time.
Cut the BS. Of course it does. Ultimately, what restrains anyone's behavior, whether an individual or a government, is the possibility that bad behavior will lead to violence.
That's literally the only check humanity has on itself and on each other. Government is granted a monopoly over the use of force to prevent it, but when government becomes the problem, you're back to the caveman days.
So, your answer to the question is that we have to allow a person who has shown no respect for our Constitution to run for office. A person who has suggested tearing up the Constitution to run for office. A person who suggests when he is elected, he will impose an imperial Presidency that does not respect the division of power. If we do this, we risk civil war is your suggestion. A country that stood up to the Barbary Pirates to the Soviet Union should now yield to Donal Trump. I would think we could do better than that.
Yes, my answer is that, if you want to disqualify him from office, charge him with a relevant offense, and convict him. Really disliking him is not enough. Go through the formal process.
And yet, under the constitution, getting someone convicted of a felony is neither necessary nor sufficient to disqualify them. That is why the drafters of the 14th amendment thought there should be a separate rule for insurrectionists. If you don’t like that rule, feel free to persuade people to repeal it.
And yet, it wasn't really necessary when they were dealing with the recently defeated losers of a civil war, subject to military justice, and totally beaten down. Which is the only reason they got away with it.
You don't get to treat people like the losers in a civil war without winning a civil war first! What part of that is hard to understand?
The part where you're pretending that section 3 includes the word "war".
Your statement is confusing, but regardless, Brett is correct here.
What you and others are ignoring about the context of the Civil War was that there were public records of the individual insurrectionist offenders. Confederate government officials had recorded oaths of office. Confederate soldiers were paroled and those records were in the hands of the federal government. All those things qualified as disqualifying under section 3. Even back then, it was not like, oh this person was a disqualified insurrectionist because it was reported in the newspaper.
Nothing like that exists today, which is why there would need to be a civil criminal conviction for insurrection, or other equivalent military record of capture during an armed insurrection, to justify section 3 disqualification.
Where does it say that?
Then it's a shame that section 3 doesn't require any of that, by its own text. You are doing exactly what people accuse "living constitutionalists" of doing, changing the constitution without amendment.
Brett sets up a bespoke Constitutional process. It's Constitutional because he claims the Constitution will be overthrown unless we follow it.
Whatta thug.
It just blows my mind that there are people, even with degrees, who are so blisteringly stupid that they want to apply Civil war precedents outside the context of an actual civil war.
The Union was doing things all over the place that make no sense at all to do without having just won a civil war. This was just one of them.
Precedents apply outside of their limited facts. That’s kind of their whole thing.
And the precedent outside the Civil war is that you let the guy run, don't disqualify him until he's convicted, and lift the disqualification if the conviction is overturned.
That's the precedent, when you're not dealing with the losing side in a civil war.
The law is the law until the law is changed. Feel free to advocate for a change in the Constitution.
Legal precedent does not work negatively.
We haven’t had someone who this provision of the Constitution applied to in a while so it’s no longer operational?
What doctrine of interpretation are you into now? It’s not text or original interpretation or purpose or intent.
It’s TrumpLaw!
Looks like quartering soldiers is back on the books too!
Shutting down opposition newspapers, and the President suspending the writ of habeus corpus, too.
I can't wait for them to exploit the precedents concerning having federal soldiers present in state legislative chambers making sure they vote the 'right' way if they don't want to be shot.
We know you can't. That's the whole problem.
Bellmore, I hope your blown mind has enough neurons still functioning to let you process that under the terms of founding era constitutionalism Trump's insurrection was a literal attempt to wage war against the U.S. It was, in fact, the most intense and most impactful of all of America's many insurrectionist adventures, save the Civil War itself. And Trump did lose that war of his.
The question raised by your commentary is whether, "Trump will rise again," ought to be more than a loser's invocation of a lost cause. The Constitution says no. You say, "Let's fight about that."
Not many folks want that fight on either side. But if it happens, expect it to end suddenly, at great cost to Trump's remnant insurrectionists. Your inner longings are not an accurate guide to the relative strengths each side would command.
It's so insurrection-y he's not even being charged with insurrection
I will accept your argument that we should first convict a person before disqualification. I think that this is more than we dislike him, I think most people know what he did and the type of person we are dealing with and we cannot live in fear. The former President needs to be called out and prosecuted when the evidence supports the case.
Apparently, not even the DOJ believes the evidence supports the case, then.
The entire point is that there is no "formal process." That's just something you wish were true.
You want to see a real insurrection, the Capitol building reduced to rubble?
Flailing, disaffected, blustering, bigoted, autistic, backwater, all-talk conservatives are among my favorite culture war casualties . . . and precisely the audience this white, male, movement conservative blog cultivates.
These -- downscale right-wing bigots who can't stop talking about violence and bigotry -- are your fans, Volokh Conspirators.
And the reason most of you are destined to remain at the disrespected fringe of modern, mainstream, reason-based legal academia.
Well, that and the incessant bigotry that is a signature element of your blog. Most educated, accomplished, worthwhile people no long think much of bigots.
This proposal could be the spark that ignites a new civil war, if taken seriously. It’s that in your face outrageous.
Do you consider Trump's attempts to stay in office despite losing the 2020 election to be outrageous?
Because if he succeeded that definitely could have caused a civil war.
How do you not grasp that? You want to see a real insurrection, the Capitol building reduced to rubble? This is how you get that.
Meh, it's not gonna happen, but if it somehow did happen Trump would get all whiny, you'd get a few nasty (possibly violent) protests, and the GOP and Fox News would act all outraged while they contained their giddiness at the prospect of getting rid of Trump.
How exactly would it have "succeeded"? By what mechanism? Stealing the House Speaker's podium?
People can't simply accept that it was a bunch of yokels rioting for a couple hours. That's it. There was zero threat to our government.
I was going to argue that the Civil War cases are different at least as a practical matter because the CSA was an actual “organization” and the people involved held offices, swore oaths, wore uniforms, etc. but on reflection I’m not sure that actually makes any difference even on an "enforcement" level. Apologies if this is already addressed in the paper you’re referencing, but I’d be interested in what people think about this specific point.
No need to apologize, you are correct. As I wrote above, Confederate officials recorded oaths of allegiance to their rebel government. Surrendered Confederate soldiers had their paroles recorded by the Union army. All these things were sufficient to document their participation in an insurrection.
Today there is no active, armed insurrection. Civil authority was never suspended on Jan 6. All civil courts are open and functioning. Therefore there has to be a criminal conviction to justify disqualification under section 3. This really isn't hard. You can't disqualify someone because of popular news reporting or what their political opponents say about them.
However, I believe that Congress would be competent, when counting electoral votes, to reject electoral votes for a candidate who has such a public record of insurrection. Which is beyond ironic, because that's exactly the political mechanism which Trump was trying to use to steal the election.
Therefore there has to be a criminal conviction to justify disqualification under section 3.
Where does it say that?
You can’t disqualify someone because of popular news reporting or what their political opponents say about them.
Who is suggesting otherwise?
Did you not read your 2 replies to me? They suggest exactly that.
How else does “government” determine that someone has committed the offense of insurrection, other than a court conviction? I gave other historical examples that could document insurrection, none of which apply today (or on Jan 6).
Do you (and Baude) think this empowers any state government clerk to reject Trump appearing on a ballot, because they have decided on their own that he’s guilty of insurrection.
So yes, I understand you (and others) are suggesting otherwise. Because no other mechanism allows for due process. I think it’s unconscionable for that anyone (you, Baude) would think that section 3 repealed that constitutional requirement. Absolutely chilling.
This is why many people are objecting to the idea that section 3 is self-executing. By whom, by what, exactly? Who decides?
There are multiple documented insurrections that did not require participants to sign a paper or register with the insurrectionist group: the Battle of Liberty Place, Greenwood Insurrection of 1882, Wilmington Insurrection of 1898, the Coal Wars, etc.
That Section 3 is self-executing is accurate as both a historical and textual matter. That you might think it is bad policy does not make it otherwise. Nor does it eliminate due process protections!
Election officials should decline to put someone on the ballot if they think that a candidate is ineligible under Section 3. If the candidate disagrees, they can challenge that decision in court. Self-executing does not mean that there is no recourse against abuse.
It's the same as other self-executing candidate requirements. If an election official believes that an individual is ineligible to run for president because they wouldn't be 35 by the time they were sworn in, then the official shouldn't put them on the ballot. If the official was wrong, the candidate can go to court, prove their age, and get on the ballot. Same with being a natural born citizen. Section 3 is no different.
"There are multiple documented insurrections that did not require participants to sign a paper or register with the insurrectionist group: the Battle of Liberty Place, Greenwood Insurrection of 1882, Wilmington Insurrection of 1898, the Coal Wars, etc."
And, following your theory, how many of them resulted in application of Section 3?
No idea, because I don't know whether the insurrectionists had previously taken an oath to uphold the Constitution or were an officer of the United States.
If they had, then I think all of them would have been ineligible for subsequent office based on the self-executing application of Section 3. But to my knowledge, the participants either didn't qualify because they weren't officers of the United States, or else they didn't seek office afterward and so we never saw the application in action.
But the point is that an insurrection can take place, and a person can be an insurrectionist, without signing their name on a membership role of some organization that is in open rebellion. Insurrections can, and have, occurred without that level of organization, and they are still very much insurrections.
NONE. Section 3 only got invoked right after the Civil war, and in the early 1900's against Victor Berger, who got convicted of espionage, otherwise it's never been applied.
So what?
No insurrectionist has ever got so close to being elected, either.
How else does “government” determine that someone has committed the offense of insurrection, other than a court conviction?
Practically yes but technically no.
Do you (and Baude) think this empowers any state government clerk to reject Trump appearing on a ballot, because they have decided on their own that he’s guilty of insurrection.
If they have a good faith belief that Trump engaged in insurrection they could reject his candidates just like if they had a good faith belief he was under 35.
And at that point, Trump could sue claiming to not be an insurrectionist (or that he's over 35) and it would go to the courts.
So yes, I understand you (and others) are suggesting otherwise. Because no other mechanism allows for due process. I think it’s unconscionable for that anyone (you, Baude) would think that section 3 repealed that constitutional requirement. Absolutely chilling.
As you yourself pointed out historically a conviction was not required.
If Trump then sues the question of whether he's an insurrectionist will go before the court. At that point I suspect the court would treat it as him being on trial for insurrection, so he still gets due process in the trial.
This is why many people are objecting to the idea that section 3 is self-executing. By whom, by what, exactly? Who decides?
Here's a likely scenario:
- Some clerk refuses to put Trump on the ballot claiming he's an insurrectionist.
- Outrage ensure and Trump sues.
- The court conducts a quick trial to decide if Trump is in fact an insurrectionist.
- The court says he isn't and Trump ends up on the ballot.
It's exactly the same process that would have happened if some clerk refused to list Obama because he wasn't a natural born citizen, except in this case the answer is a bit fuzzy.
Your scenario posits mistakenly that courts composed of judges who have sworn oaths to defend the constitution somehow also enjoy a paradoxical power to apply due process against the expressed will of the sovereign—which decreed the Constitution. If that were true, the judges would be sovereign, and the People's sovereignty would be overturned.
Then it’s not actually self-executing. Insurrection is a criminal offense (not unlike treason, see the Aaron Burr treason trial). Section 3 is not license to conduct a quasi-criminal proceeding to determine whether an “accused” has crossed an insurrection threshold.
As I said before, given the Civil War context, there were plenty of records (created during the active/armed rebellion, in regions where civil law did not function as recognized by presidential proclamation and subsequent congressional action) which could document engaging in insurrection (army parole, Confederate oath of allegiance) to disqualify ex-Confederates under Section 3. Your clerk and any subsequent legal trial could sort that out. In the United States, we don’t conduct extra legal ad hoc trials to determine guilt or innocence. At least not when civil courts are operating, insurrection being a known criminal offense, and no such indictment/conviction has been attained.
If anyone wants so see Trump disqualified under Section 3, they first must seek a criminal conviction for insurrection. It’s rather similar circumstances to the Aaron Burr treason trial, with the Jefferson administration (including the president himself) seeking to prosecute a treason case, but lacking the minimal evidentiary threshold required by the Constitution to sustain a conviction. It’s un-American (not to mention unconstitutional) to assume, when no active insurrection was sustained, that anyone could be declared guilty of insurrection without a criminal trial. Arguing to the contrary reminds me of the Eastman memos.
Who decides. Government officials who have sworn oaths to defend the Constitution decide. They do so according to the terms of the Constitution.
You write as if you think an ability to run for office is some kind of right. It is not. In American constitutionalism the gift of office is a sole power of the joint popular sovereign, to be bestowed at pleasure, without constraint. The sovereign's instructions to government about how to administer the sovereign will are decreed in the Constitution. Baud's article tells you what the Constitution says on the subject.
If you reflect on it, you may discern that due process applies only insofar as the joint popular sovereign decreed it should apply. And that never went so far as to insist an office seeker could invoke due process against the sovereign will itself. If the Constitution says you do not get due process, then no one who has sworn an oath to defend the Constitution, not even a Supreme Court Justice, has legitimate power to say otherwise.
Tl; TDS; dr
The growth of ‘I will not engage. Trump forever!’ is pretty sad.
I despise Trump as much as the next guy, but the notion that Sec 3 is both self-executing and enforceable at the discretion of any election official is insane.
The same principal would also apply to the natural-born citizen clause.
Do we really think that the Secretary of State of Pennsylvania or Ohio, for example, should have had the unilateral ability to exclude Barack Obama or John McCain from the ballot in their state?
Even worse, do we really want to read Sec 3 (especially the "aid and comfort" language) as superseding the First Amendment?
That is not using a hand grenade to kill a mosquito -- it is more like using an A-bomb to kill a rabid raccoon.
"Do we really think that the Secretary of State of Pennsylvania or Ohio, for example, should have had the unilateral ability to exclude Barack Obama or John McCain from the ballot in their state?"
If they had done so, then Barack Obama or John McCain would have had redress through the courts, on the grounds that they were actually natural-born citizens. But to your point, if, say, Elon Musk were to declare his intention to run for president, do you think that the Secretary of State of Pennsylvania or Ohio, for example, should have to get a court order to refuse to include him on the ballot?
Honestly, I am not sure. It would be a matter of state law. I'd be a bit surprised if a given Secretary of State actually had the authority to independently determine eligibility questions, though. I'd have though their job was more ministerial in nature -- as long as the candidate fills out the right forms etc., that candidate gets on the ballot.
When we discussed this in Con Law, way back when, the conclusion was that the 35-year age requirement and NBC clause were essentially unenforceable, at least from a Federal level.
Government officials enforce the law (as they are told it means) every single day without initiating a court case. It's then up to the "wronged" party to challenge them in court.
I'm not sure what you mean by "unilateral," but election boards and election officers make decisions about whether a potential candidate meets qualifications to appear on a ballot all the time. If a candidate is not allowed on the ballot, they can appeal to a higher board or official, and ultimately to court. That's how the system works. It would certainly be a major kerfuffle if Trump (or his pledged electors) were kept off a ballot in some state or states, but it would just be officials doing their jobs. And Trump would have access to due process in appealing the decisions.
And it's not like he can't get the chumps to give him as much money for lawyers as he'd need...
Do we really think that the Secretary of State of Pennsylvania or Ohio, for example, should have had the unilateral ability to exclude Barack Obama or John McCain from the ballot in their state?
I would have had no problem with that.
They would have sued, the court would have had a quick look then laughed the Secretary of State out of the court, and everybody would have moved on.
Even worse, do we really want to read Sec 3 (especially the “aid and comfort” language) as superseding the First Amendment?
I'm not an originalist, but adding a clause to the constitution can deliberately change prior clauses, and I think the Sec 3 superseding the First Amendment is what they intended.
And I think that's a good idea. If an insurrection succeeds then the First Amendment is toast.
I am not a lawyer, but I find this discussion interesting. While it may be true the entirety of the 14th amendment is still in effect and self enforcing, that seems theoretical to me since the part being discussed here has not been enforced for some 150 years, I would guess. But since we are on theoretical discussions, what about the 3rd amendment? Is it still in full effect? Any significant case law on the 3rd amendment?
I am not as concerned about some violent civil war. I pray that does not happen as I am a member of the thin blue line. If even 1% of my city decided to take arms against the government, I can tell you we would have a problem. In reality, it would take far less than 1% to create total chaos.
So aside the discussion of civil war, I think tit for tat more likely. Given the arguments given here, what if I am the secretary of state of Texas of Florida and I decide Biden has broken his oath of office. Hell, just leave him off the ballot. The 14th amendment is self enforcing, don't you know? I already hear conservatives saying the AG's in red states should start prosecuting democrat politicians for any and every thing. I don't think that's the best path, but that and the 14th amendment gambit seems to be the path we are on. I think we should get off this path.
Yes the Third Amendment and the third section of the 14th amendment are still in force.
In the case of copyright law, the courts have decided that the later-enacted First Amendment does not overrule the earlier enacted grant of power to Congress. I would not expect the courts to carve out any special exeptions to the First Amendment based on the later-enacted insurrection clause.
Never mind your misreading of Eldred v. Ashcroft, but what does the First Amendment have to do with anything?
From the OP:
"Third, to the extent of any conflict with prior constitutional rules, Section Three repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them. This includes the rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment."
Section 3 is the One Amendment to rule them all, apparently. And who cares about 'implied repeal'?
The portion of Baude's law review article on this is very short and, in my reading, pretty severely under-supported. It relies not on the 14th being enacted after the First, but on, essentially, on drawing a parallel to laws against incitement, conspiracy and solicitation, as "speech integral to criminal conduct": if it doesn't violate the First Amendment to criminalize those, then surely it doesn't violate the First Amendment to bar those falling within the scope of Section Three from office, right? But those exceptions are *very* heavily litigated, their scope is hardly agreed, and Baude and Paulsen don't even try to define the limits of what would constitute such insurrection-y activity as to override the First Amendment.
So, sure: hiring a hit man to kill your ex isn't protected by the First Amendment, while saying to your friends "I hate my ex so much, I wish someone would kill h[im][er]" is. There's nothing in the text of the First Amendment that defines this distinction, though, and what would define the scope of people for whom Section Three overrides the First Amendment? Shouting instructions from a bullhorn to soldiers on a battlefield to direct troop movements in a declared war against Washington, sure. Saying people should fight like hell to make sure their legislators don't certify the vote, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ?
I think he was making a point about implied repeal.
The authors suggest there may be cases of unavoidable conflict between Sec. 3 and the First Amendment, in which case they’d set aside the First Amendment in order to impose disqualification in the name of Sec. 3.
At the same time, they say these conflicts with the First Amendment will be rare. Generous concession! But why not just say that repeals by implication are disfavored, and therefore Sec. 3 should not be construed to apply to *any* First Amendment activity?
Banning someone from office because at one time he exercised his First Amendment rights seems counterintuitive.
Recall the famous 1A case of Bond v. Floyd?
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/385/116/
Would the statements described in that case have been abuses of the First Amendment such as to trigger Sec. 3? (I don't think Bond took an oath of office before endorsing the antiwar statement, thus keeping out of Sec. 3's clutches, but what if an officeholder endorsed the statement after taking the oath?)
Out of curiosity, do you somehow think that torts or crimes that involve talking are all unconstitutional?
Separately, could you give me an example of an amendment to the constitution that does not constitute an amendment by implication other than the 21st?
"Out of curiosity, do you somehow think that torts or crimes that involve talking are all unconstitutional?"
I think it's fairly obvious I don't believe this straw man. The only interesting issue is why you asked such a silly question.
I don't think the 16th Amendment repealed the First Amendment by implication. Nor did the 23rd. Should I go on at random?
I think it’s fairly obvious I don’t believe this straw man. The only interesting issue is why you asked such a silly question.
Because it's the only reason I can think of why the First Amendment would be remote relevant to anything we've been talking about.
I don’t think the 16th Amendment repealed the First Amendment by implication. Nor did the 23rd.
How can you tell?
The post is about the article.
Pages 57-61 of the article discuss the First Amendment issue.
Decide for yourself how relevant it is.
You deserve the severest mockery for invoking that straw man and then doubling down with it.
"How can you tell?"
Because there is a presumption that amendments in a narrow area do not subvert the entire Constitutional structure. That Congress is granted the power to impose an income tax does not mean in anyone's wildest imagination that the First Amendment has been repealed when it comes to the income tax.
So can the government tax newspapers or not?
Sure, but it cannot tax only those newspapers that print opinions that the government does not like.
So can it tax newspapers into bankruptcy?
After all, as the Supreme Court said once upon a time about the Bank of the United States: the power of taxing it by the States may be exercised so as to destroy it is too obvious to be denied.
Newspapers specifically, not. IIRC, there is a SCOTUS opinion or dictum that covers this.
Can Congress tax corporations, some of whom publish newspapers? Sure.
"Third, to the extent of any conflict with prior constitutional rules, Section Three repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them. This includes the rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment."
Really? So if an administration decides now that criticism of the government is insurrection then there is no protected speech, no due process, no ban on bills of attainder? No Speech and Debate Clause protection for Congress? I think that while the 14th amendment and specifically section 3 is bigger than a "mousehole", its certainly not big enough to hide that particular elephant.
“So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!”
I guess Baude's answer is "No".
Even if Section 3 was once self executing, Section 5 gave Congress the power to make it subject to due process and the laws of the land, and they have done so. Whatever the strength of Baude's argument during reconstruction, it no longer applies because Congress has acted under section 5 and passed the Insurrection Act, the "appropriate legislation" as was foretold:
"The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
Now we have a legal definition of insurrection, and the courts to apply due process to that law, unless of course Baude is also saying the courts don't have to apply due process to insurrection cases.
So if an administration decides now that criticism of the government is insurrection then there is no protected speech, no due process, no ban on bills of attainder? No Speech and Debate Clause protection for Congress?
Not unless they first got rid of the courts somehow.
Section 5 gave Congress the power to make it subject to due process and the laws of the land, and they have done so. hatever the strength of Baude’s argument during reconstruction, it no longer applies because Congress has acted under section 5 and passed the Insurrection Act
You mean the Insurrection Act of 1807, i.e. 60 years before the 14th amendment?
"Not unless they first got rid of the courts somehow."
And what will courts do, acc. to Baude? They can't rule such a law as violative of the First Amendment, since, acc. to Baude, Section 3 supersedes the First Amendment. They can't insist on some formal procedure, since there is no Due Process rights.
That's the point, he is saying that there are no Constitutional protections at all. That leaves the courts powerless to do anything.
They can rule that there was no insurrection.
Case or controversy? Federal courts cannot issue advisory opinions on such matters. As Jan 6 happened in the federal district, it's really a stretch to suggest that a state court (or other state government entity) has competence to opine on that.
Are you suggesting that the person who is disqualified wouldn't have standing to litigate that issue? Or that, say, Donald Trump wouldn't have diversity jurisdiction to sue in Federal court against disqualification in any state other than Florida?
Then criminally charge him with insurrection.
No, you don't get to argue in some judicial proceeding that insurrection occurred and a candidate was somehow connected with it, when there's a criminal statue making insurrection a crime, but the person has not been found guilty under it. And the civil courts were in continuous operation.
That's why said what case or controversy. Federal (Article III) courts would require a case or controversy, and have no competency to rule on the existence of an insurrection. That's a determination that belongs to the other 2 branches, as the Civil War demonstrated.
I think you missed his point. If Trump were kept off the ballot in Maryland, say, for violating section 3, he would have a real injury and standing to appeal to federal court. It would be a real case or controversy, not an advisory opinion. And you keep bringing up the lack of criminal charge, but section 3 clearly doesn't require that.
...And it will be ignored a second time.
Bored Lawyer, yes, you have grasped the point. The courts do not possess a due process power to enforce against the joint popular sovereign which decreed the Constitution.
Good question. No I did not mean the insurrection act of 1807, I meant:
"18 USC 2383: Rebellion or insurrection
Text contains those laws in effect on January 23, 2000
From Title 18-CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I-CRIMES
CHAPTER 115-TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES
Jump To:
Source Credit
Amendments
Cross Reference
§2383. Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808 ; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, §330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147 .)
Based on title 18, U.S.C., 1940 ed., §4 (Mar. 4, 1909, ch. 321, §4, 35 Stat. 1088 )."
Which you will note tracks pretty closely to section 3, and has been revised many times over the years.
And where does it say that this statute was adopted pursuant to Congress's powers under the 14th amendment and/or to govern the definition of insurrection under section 3?
The short answer is: res ipsa loquitor.
The longer answer is carrying a penalty of ineligibility for federal office tracks the 14th amendment closely, and would be unconstitutional if not done under the authority of the 14th amendment. And it is still is likely unconstitutional as to people who have not "previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States" for the offices of Congress, President and VP.
The article is focused on the original meaning of insurrection, which is the exact opposite of "so if the government decides now" stuff.
I find the article interesting, as I find everything Will Baude does interesting, although I don't have any any particular expertise on this subject one way or the other.
So I will instead make a slightly different comment after reading through the comments. I did find it ... interesting ... that the very same people who continually argue that we need to follow originalism and the plain text of the Constitution - no matter what the actual real-life consequences or the prudential issues might be ...
Are suddenly howling and braying, insisting that we ignore, um, the text of the Constitution because of reasons. For them.
Normally, this would cause a moment of introspection. Given what I have seen ... naw.
Actually, Baude is insisting that one clause of the Constitution allows us to ignore all the other clauses.
Insisting that there be some process to determine whether someone actually was involved in an "Insurrection" is not ignoring the text of the Constitution.
Baud is not insisting - he has an argument. You should consider reading the article before you say what you think he's arguing.
"Consider the Thirteenth Amendment’s ban on slavery—a dramatic and particularly obvious illustration of the point that new constitutional language supersedes and repudiates old constitutional language, to the extent of any conflict. The Thirteenth Amendment’s abolition of slavery implicitly but necessarily overrides and extinguishes the Fugitive Slave Clause and any other provision of the original Constitution that protected the institution of slavery to the full logical extent of inconsistency with the amendment’s flat ban. Similarly, Section Two of the Fourteenth Amendment supersedes and displaces the Constitution’s original apportionment rules including the notorious Three-fifths Clause. Because the two rules conflict in substance, the amendment prevails over the Constitution’s original language.
Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment is in the same family..."
Click through and read his stuff and then you can engage with substance.
I downloaded the paper, and while I haven't read it all I did search it to see what he said about section 5, it was incomplete and underwhelming to say the least.
Well, the Professor's argument falls apart in the face of reality. Why? Nobody has been charged with insurrection or rebellion. Charge him, and hold the trial. Better yet, do that in DC.
Otherwise, it seems rather pointless, unless the point was to virtue-signal.
Look, “virtue signal” has truly become meaningless. Will Baude is … what … virtue signaling, using a law review article, to who? About what? And … Baude? Okay, then.
As for the charging issue- that was the point of the article. In reality, it probably is meaningless. After all, it is a law review article. That said, I do think it is an interesting exercise in how a lot of the people here actually approach serious legal arguments.
I don’t always agree with Prof. Baude. I do think that he is one of the most serious scholars that still occasionally posts at the Volokh Conspiracy.
Huh? Literally the entire point of his argument was that it was not necessary for someone to be charged with insurrection or rebellion.
Endorsing arguments about controlling elections by bypassing due process?
That's some real "rule of law" stuff by the lawyers there.
How is due process bypassed? Any candidate excluded from the ballot based on section 3 would have access to federal court to challenge that determination.
Which is why Baude's argument is so ridiculous.
There is a crime of insurrection defined by Congress that carries a penalty of 10 years, fines, and ineligibility for federal office. But Trump wasn't charged so maybe he isn't guilty of insurrection.
Usually when a prosecutor has jurisdiction and sufficient evidence and resources to charge someone with a crime they do so. Seems to indicate Trump isn't guilty of insurrection.
But Baude's take is "Trial? We don't need no stinking trial."
Baude would of course agree that Trump could not be punished pursuant to the federal insurrection statute without a trial. But this isn't about punishment for violating the federal insurrection statute. It's about the administrative application of the 14th amendment's anti-insurrection position.
And that might be sufficient, although I’m doubtful, if Congress had not used its section 5 powers to enforce section 3.
Congress has and lays out the elements of Insurrection that need to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law to disqualify someone from federal office.
Congress could under section 5 have laid out an “administrative application” of section 3, but they didn’t, they decided insurrection was a serious enough offense that it was not only a felony but also merited disqualification from office as section 3 allowed.
They also decided it was serious enough to allow the accused to defend themselves from such a very serious charge in front of a jury of their peers.
You don't seriously entertain Baude's assertion that section 3 removes the prohibition of Bills of Attainder, and removal of due process in one short paragraph without even mentioning them do you?
Could you explain your argument a little more here? Are you saying that Congress can add a requirement to section 3 that for a candidate to be excluded, it must be proved beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law? And I guess that power would derive from section 5?
Congress is adding nothing to Section 3, or subtracting from it.
It is, exactly as section 5 puts it, "enforc[ing], by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
Okay, but if by enforcing through appropriate legislation, said legislation requires a criminal conviction, is that not adding to the requirements for exclusion as laid out in section 3? They certainly have the power to use that criterion in any particular exclusion they consider, but do they have the power to make it a permanent requirement for future exclusions? That's what I'm asking.
I was going to make a similar reply, but you beat me to it and said it better than I would have.
Exactly, Loki! +1
Not all "the same people", just those who play on Team MAGA.
Those who, instead, believe in the rule of law are perfectly fine with consistently interpreting the Constitution in accordance with its original, commonly understood meaning--wherever that may lead.
Sorry to disappoint!
Of course there is no way this is going to happen. Democrats will make no move to disqualify Trump from office – granted that no doubt some voices might be raised in favour – barring exceptionally egregious escalation in his behaviour and actions or exceptionally egregious revelations about his past actions and behaviour. On the other hand, Trump supporters will be demanding Trump’s opponents get disqualified as a matter of course from now on, and one of their pretexts will be ‘Democrats did it!’
I agree with you that democrats won't do it. After all, having beat Trump once in the last presidential election it stands to reason Trump is likely to lose again.
But its possible a republican candidate may try it. Could you imagine Desantis ordering his Sec of State to keep Trump off the FL primary ballot? Maybe/maybe not. Would one of the lesser candidates attempt a lawsuit to keep Trump off the primary ballot in random states? If they are desperate enough its possible they could try.
I hope one of them does - so at least these 'theories' could be tested in an actual court of law resulting in appealable decisions and updated precedent. To quote Trump, "it will be wild!"
Trump’s opponents for the nomination can’t even bring themselves to treat his indictments as opportunities to attack him politically. Someone admitting he lost the election was breaking news. To try to keep him off the ballot would be political suicide, but, in fairness, they have to run against Trump without annoying the voters who venerate him; criticising him or trying to undermine him is out of the question. The non-Republicans who oppose him politically without showing him the same deference and respect is seen as TDS and oppression and wokeness.
Third, to the extent of any conflict with prior constitutional rules, Section Three repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies them. This includes the rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment.
TDS comes to the legal professorate.
So it overrules Ex Post Facto? Ok, Congress can pass a statute that "Insurrection" includes dying one's hair orange, or sniffing the hair of anyone under 12 not your relative. And that applies retroactively. So now both Trump and Biden are disqualified.
It overrules Due Process? Great, let's flip a coin to decide if John Doe Candidate engaged in an insurrection. Who needs facts and evidence, no Due Process Clause.
It overrules Bill of Attainder? Under the English practice which this outlawed, a Bill of Attainder not only disqualifes the individual, but worked "corruption of blood," meaning the person's descendants and heirs were barred from holding titles. So not only Trump would be disqualified, but so too his whole family.
Oh, an I just appointed myself Chief Kahuna of Elections, so I will exercise all of the above.
The absurdities keep flying around. Trump has this uncanny ability to make everyone crazy, one way or the other.
S3 supersedes prior laws and Constitution articles - which is completely and obviously true because that is the nature of constitutional amendments.
Congress cannot pass a valid law in violation of it - e.g., allowing insurrectionists to stand, or redefining insurrectionist to include being president while orange. But someone with standing can resort to the courts where an election official acts in violation of S3 - again, obviously - so the courts will have to rule on what counts as "insurrection". But this is no different from someone going to court for any other suit requiring constitutional interpretation.
The TDSS (TDS Syndrome, whereby the sufferer imagines that any argument that works against Trump is due to TDS) sufferers here are going to be strongly motivated to reason that S3 cannot mean what it says or even if it does, doesn't really apply, because Trump.
"S3 supersedes prior laws and Constitution articles – which is completely and obviously true because that is the nature of constitutional amendments."
No, you are completely and obviously wrong. The notion that amendments mean we can discard the Bill of Rights has never been seriously entertained by any court.
The 16th Amendment permitted income taxes. Does that mean that Congress can criminalize advocacy of abolishing the income tax, since that supersedes the First Amendment? Or assess income taxes with no recourse to a court if the person disputes his income, since that supersedes the Due Process Clause?
Same thing for the prohibition of liquor in the 18th Amendment (until that was repealed).
Try thinking through what you are saying first. Amendments do change the Constitution, but without explicit statements, they are not presumed to overthrow the prior Constitutional order in toto.
So if a new amendment were passed saying that the definition of arms under 2A will not henceforth include any arms banned by international convention and hence Congress may pass laws infringing on the rights of possession of such arms, that amendment would be invalid? Wow. On what basis does BoR stand above such an amendment?
The 16th Amendment permitted income taxes. Does that mean that Congress can criminalize advocacy of abolishing the income tax, since that supersedes the First Amendment? Or assess income taxes with no recourse to a court if the person disputes his income, since that supersedes the Due Process Clause?
Haven't had your morning coffee yet, I see. There is a clear - and fucking obvious - distinction between an amendment and what one is permitted to say about an amendment. And there is a distinction between an amendment requiring you to pay tax and the process of assessment of the amount you have to pay.
Now if 16A had said, "and the IRS's determination of tax due is final, howsoever derived, and no challenge shall be made in court or any other place to that determination", then the Due Process clause would indeed have been superseded in this context, but no Congress would be stupid enough - not even the current one - of incorporating such wording.
So if a new amendment were passed saying that the definition of arms under 2A will not henceforth include any arms banned by international convention and hence Congress may pass laws infringing on the rights of possession of such arms, that amendment would be invalid? Wow. On what basis does BoR stand above such an amendment?
A new amendment that specifically supersedes one of the BoR obviously supersedes it. But the presumption is that it doesn't. So this was a silly argument. It is theoretically possible to amend the Constitution that the BoR is hereby abolished. But that does not mean any amendment on any topic should be construed that way.
There is a clear – and fucking obvious – distinction between an amendment and what one is permitted to say about an amendment. And there is a distinction between an amendment requiring you to pay tax and the process of assessment of the amount you have to pay.
And yet that same distinction between the Insurrection Clause and the process of assessing whether it applies to John Doe Candidate seems to elude both you and Prof. Baude. Can you explain why it's "f---ing" obvious in one case but not the other?
(And while you are at it, look up the term "reductio ad absurdum."
"A new amendment that specifically supersedes one of the BoR obviously supersedes it. But the presumption is that it doesn’t. "
Sure, but when there is a conflict it is the earlier in time which gives way.
Only an unavoidable conflict; courts will generally try to harmonize statutes, and by extension, amendments, unless the intent to supersede or change earlier law is clear.
And Baude argues this is an unavoidable conflict.
And yet that same distinction between the Insurrection Clause and the process of assessing whether it applies to John Doe Candidate seems to elude both you and Prof. Baude.
And meanwhile I had said this:
"But someone with standing can resort to the courts where an election official acts in violation of S3 – again, obviously – so the courts will have to rule on what counts as “insurrection”. But this is no different from someone going to court for any other suit requiring constitutional interpretation."
And while you are at it, look up the term “reductio ad absurdum.
Ditto for "obviously".
See this is why Madison wanted the amendments engrossed into the constitution in place where they applied but others said no, we need a separate section.
"repeals, supersedes, or simply satisfies"
See if you notice a problem with your post when compared to the words Baude actually used.
Words. Plural.
You are under selling Bills of Attainder, Algernon Sidney was the last man executed by an act of Parliament, rather than a criminal conviction.
Baude has put that on the table too.
Let's put Trump aside. In the future someone clearly and unambiguously engages in an insurrection or rebellion against the US. That person then runs for federal office. In that scenario, Congress clearly has the authority under sections 3 and 5 to pass legislation preventing that person from holding federal office. But couldn't that legislation also be considered a bill of attainder, imposing a punishment on a specific person? And yet allowed by amendment.
What needs to happen is that the prosecutor with appropriate jurisdiction charges the miscreant with Insurrection and proves it among a jury of their peers. It shouldn't be a heavy lift given the clear and unambiguous evidence you posit.
Alternatively each house could exclude a member for being an insurrectionist, or impeach a President or Vice President for being an insurrectionist. But keep in mind Trump was impeached by the House, not for insurrection, but for Incitement of Insurrection, and found not guilty by the Senate.
But I would love for Congress to pass a such Bill of Attainder, naming Trump other specific individuals, and barring them from federal office, and I'm confident it would be struck down by the courts.
Why would a conviction in court need to happen? It isn't required by the text of the amendment. And as I've said before, the amendment clearly supersedes the absolute ban on bills of attainder. How else could Congress enforce the exclusion of a single person or persons, as they are empowered to do under section 5.
As to whether Jan 6 was an insurrection - what if the rioters had accomplished their ends and prevented the counting of votes? You don't judge an insurrection by whether it was successful or even competent, only by its intent.
Yes, the paper is long. [grin]
Clarifying the distinction between an insurrectionist and a belligerent seems important. Using President Trump as an example, he was (on 6-Jan) the target of warfare -- coup d'état -- initiated by several Democrats infesting Congress: the belligerents in war against President Trump had, prior to 6-Jan, undertaken steps greater than those undertaken by Confederacy against Lincoln! The rules applicable to belligerents, even those in wars lacking a baptismal name bestowed by Congress, differ from those applicable to insurrectionists. Or is true that I should be repaid for Lincoln's wrongful taking of my family's property?
Poe's Law.
So Calabresi is not the only law professor lighting his credibility on fire this week on this issue.
Trump really broke so many minds.
One guy blew himself up at an FBI office for him.
How many are locked in prison cells because they were dumb, gullible, and deplorable enough to attack the Capitol for him?
It was half-assed, and it was the beneficiary of extraordinary leniency from the authorities, but it was an un-American, profoundly stupid, doomed, and immoral attack.
Trump, like any successful peddler of shoddy goods, knows his downscale, uninformed, gullible audience with exquisite precision.
Trump takes full advantage of many many people who's minds are already broken.
I won't disagree with that, Trump Idealization Syndrome is every bit as disabling as Trump Derangement Syndrome.
Oh, no! Bob from Ohio doesn't approve! Whatever will tenured University of Chicago law professor Will Baude do about it?!?!
Nopoint is the perfect name for you.
There are four states that Trump carried in 2016 that he would absolutely need to win in 2024 where the Governors and Secretaries of State are Democrats: Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, and North Carolina. The executive branch officers in these states could time their actions keeping Trump off the ballot in such a way as to run out the clock to election day. Even if the US Supreme Court rules that Trump must be on the ballots in those states, the Court does not have an enforcement arm. The states could refuse to comply and tie the process up so that any judicial resolution would not be possible until after January 20, 2025.
This would cause a terrible reaction that would make January 6, 2021 seem mild in comparison.
These states will have 60 electors in the Electoral College in 2024.
"This would cause a terrible reaction that would make January 6, 2021 seem mild in comparison."
Almost certainly true.
Out of curiosity, what do you think the reaction would have been if Trump had prevailed on Pence to reject the Biden-favoring ballots from the states where his campaign had arranged for fraudulent Trump-supporting slates of electors, and certified Trump as the winner of the 2020 election?
"what do you think the reaction would have been if Trump had prevailed"
Biden would still have been sworn in on Schedule?
I have no doubt that Congress would have rejected such an attempt by Pence. Trump's claim that Pence could alter the Electoral College results was absurd. Pence knew it and Congress knew it. For the EC results to be changed, Congress would have to consent to the change and, ultimately, the Supreme Court would need to uphold it. That would have resulted in a reaction that would have dwarfed the reaction to the 2000 Recount and Bush v. Gore.
I think it would have been thrown to the House, actually, because the Senate wouldn't have voted to accept that. That's the constitutionally dictated process if the Senate can't pick a winner. Where the voting would be by state, which a majority vote within each state delegation to determine how its vote would go.
Trump assumed that, if that happened, he'd win, because a majority of House delegations have Republican majorities. I have my doubts, though, because a lot of Republican office holders seriously do NOT like Trump.
The House contingent election (see 12th Amendment for details) comes into play only if nobody receives a majority of the electoral votes for President. So, Pence and Congress would have first had to void a sufficient number of electoral votes to cause nobody to have said majority before the contingent election could even arguably have taken place.
And that's part of what Trump wanted to accomplish.
Sure, the ideal outcome for Trump was Pence counting the Trump slates instead of the Biden slates, so that he gets an immediate win. (I don't think that was ever a real prospect.)
The fallback positions, though were either their voting to send the slates back for those states for review to confirm the outcome, or throwing their hands up and tossing both slates, resulting in nobody getting a majority, and it going to the House.
You haven't bothered to read the various proposals Eastman threw out there. Another possibility was to throw out those states' electoral votes and then declare that fewer than 538 electors had actually been appointed, and therefore 270 votes weren't needed. Trump had an absolute majority of the remaining electors.
I was trying to stick to proposals that were at least vaguely constitutional.
Add Arizona to that list.
But as Baude laments in his full paper, the Arizona Supreme Court flatly rejected attempts by the state to bar candidates for the ballot based on section 3:
The Arizona Supreme Court flatly rejected an attempt to disqualify Republican Congressmen Andy Biggs and Paul Gosar and State Rep. Mark Finchem from the 2022 ballot for their alleged roles in the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.
“The Candidates are not disqualified from appearing on the ballot for the 2022 primary election,” the court ruled Monday. The justices agreed with a lower court’s determination that the authority to disqualify candidates under the Fourteenth Amendment rests more in the hands of Congress than it does in the hands of the courts."
"
This analysis fails to account for the definition of "officers of the United States," which SCOTUS has held to be limited to appointed officials.
Cheating President Trump this way a second time would fully justify a civil war by his supporters, whether he takes part or not.
Don't humour Blackman. The last thing we need is for him to take a comment like this as encouragement to post even more.
The clause at issue does not mention the "office" of President, just electors.
So the President being a “officer of the United States,” is the only way to apply it to Trump.
Kinda important to resolve that, no?
The article actually accounts for that at length.
Also, SCOTUS has never held that the president is not an officer of the United States, and certainly not in the context of Section 3.
The caselaw you are referring to deals with the Appointments Clause, which explicitly provide that it is dealing with "Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for" in the Constitution - like the president. Thus, it has no application to the Section 3 question.
And in other contexts, the Court has referred to the president as an officer of the United States:
In Pollock v. Farmers' Loan & Trust Co., 157 U.S. 429 (1895), the Court discussed legislation setting the salary for "all civil officers of the United States, which included, by their literal application, the salaries of the president . . . ."
Yes. We certainly do think the Constitution should be followed.
And we also think if the constitution is altered it should be plain that it is altering other provisions, like the 12th amendment left no doubt about what it was altering, or the 21st amendment made it plain that not only was it repealing the 18th amendment, it also altered the commerce.clause as to alcohol.
Lets do a thought experiment how does Baudes self executing Section 3 handle this:
California's Secretary of State decides that Kevin McCarthy by scheduling an impeachment vote is engaging in an insurrection, and refuses to place him on the ballot.
Now according to Baude, McCarthy now has no access to the courts because "That is, Section Three's disqualification is constitutionally automatic whenever its terms are satisfied. Section Three requires no legislation or adjudication to be legally effective. It is enacted by the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment. Its disqualification, where triggered, just is."
The Secretary of State has triggered Section 3, now it is. No due process and resort to the courts because it "just is".
Its absurd to claim originalists should embrace something so sweeping, good thing I'm a textualist and I can read Section 5 of the 14th Amendment which Baude just glosses over:
"That said, the Arizona Supreme Court’s muddied reasoning in the FinchemGosar-Biggs case necessitates a few clarifying points. First, state law can enforce Section Three, and the Fourteenth Amendment does not place any particular presumption against doing so. "Unfortunately, the Arizona Supreme Court suggested otherwise, writing that “Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment appears to expressly delegate to Congress the authority to devise the method to enforce the Disqualification Clause . . . which suggests that A.R.S. 16-351(B) does not provide a private right of action to invoke the Disqualification Clause against the Candidates.”This inference
is mistaken—Congress’s power to enforce federal law, including constitutional law, is not exclusive of the states, and states regularly enforce federal law including constitutional law in their own courts."
He doesn't devote a word to the fact Congress has acted to criminalize insurrection and laid out the elements of the crime and specified not only a term of imprisonment but disqualification from federal office. Now that Congress has acted there is no room left for state action.
At first blush, it can't be right that we have at least 50 different standards for the procedures and substance of when Section 3 is violated. If Trump is kicked off a ballot, I have little doubt SCOTUS will settle the issue.
Well, if it gets that far.
There's been this weird tendency I've noticed lately that every single legal issue is always something SCOTUS will settle. That's not how it works.
Well, that's not how it's supposed to work. 🙂
This issue, applied to Trump's 2024 campaign, would be on the order of Bush v. Gore.
Uh, no? If he was kicked off a ballot in a locality, he wouldn't file in the Supreme Court. He would file in a trial court. If he won, and there was no appeal (because there might not be) it would be over.
Or it might be PCAd. There's a lot of scenarios where it wouldn't matter. Just like there was litigation over Obama's birth that never reached the Supreme Court. Or the recent litigation over Rep. Greene related to the insurrection clause did not reach the Supreme Court.
It could. Maybe. Probably not, though.
Of course it would be filed in district (or the equivalent state) court. It would land at SCOTUS within a few months on an expediated schedule. Neither side would back down prior to that (the stakes are much higher than Greene and Obama’s birth certificate is not comparable because the challenge was a joke).
How long did it take Bush v Gore to reach the Supreme Court?
The Supreme Court will take its own sweet time when it wants to, it can act pretty damn fast when it wants, too. Its not going to sit by while the issue becomes moot.
Going back to Bond v. Floyd:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/385/116/
What if Bond had associated himself with those controversial anti-Vietnam-War statements after taking an oath of office? Would Article 3 have been triggered because he gave aid or comfort to America's enemies?
If we simply apply the First Amendment, we'd say, no, that was protected free speech, and Section 3 doesn't apply to First Amendment speech.
But if we take the ridiculous position that Section 3 somehow supersedes the First Amendment, then Bond would forever afterward have been subject to having his officeholding rights challenged because, after all, Section 3 is broader than the First Amendment. How much broader? Well, we don't know, we'd have to decide case by case.
Thus is quite an inane claim.
When the 18th Amendment was enacted, it was not understood to affect the clauses against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws. It was not understood to allow the feds to just execute people based on a hunch they had a single drop of alcohol today, let alone twenty years before the amendment was ratified. It was not understood to allow the feds to punish people who spoke out against Prohibition.
The reason for this is that the 18th Amendment did not plainly address these things.
The 21st Amendment, while repealing the 18th, also gave the feds power to punish those who violated state and local laws against alcohol possession and use. In no way did the 21st Amendment affect "rules against bills of attainder or ex post facto laws, the Due Process Clause, and even the free speech principles of the First Amendment". The feds still could not execute someone merely on a hunch that someone violated state or local alcohol laws.
Some would argue that raising bail money for rioters who destroyed property in Minneapolis, Portland, and Kenosha constitute aid and comfort.
What does this mean for Cuntala?
Just going to point out that if you have a habit of referring to female politicians with derogatory names, people tend to notice.
Which means that, to the extent you think you are a serious person with serious arguments, well, you're not.
And a lot of people will either ignore your posts or explicitly block you. Figured I'd mention that one time, before doing it myself if I see it again. Which may or may not bother you at all- after all, you might just want to howl into the void!
But again, I guess it really depends on whether you do think you're a serious person, right?
My answer is simple.
Riot does not equal insurrection, so of course Cuntala is not disqualified under Section3.
In fact, someone who actually concealed evidence against a rioter or rioters, or forged exculpatory evidence in favor of rioters, would not be disqualified under Section 3.
Cool story, brah. Bye!
I shared Steven Calabresi's article on the Ethics Alarms open forum this morning and here is a reply comment.
- Rich in CT
I agree Trump would be entitled to appeal to or petition a court if excluded as an insurrectionist. It is not so clear to me as it is to you that he would win on the merits.
It's not perfectly guaranteed, but I tend to assume that, as many charges as they've been piling on top of him, if they actually did have evidence to support his being an insurrectionist they'd have charged him.
The article goes over this, and the issue isn't whether he can be charged with the crime of insurrection. It is whether the conduct qualified as insurrection under the original public meaning of that term at the time the Fourteenth Amendment was enacted. A modern prosecutor's ability to prove elements of a crime that are separate from that original meaning is irrelevant.
Yeah, the article goes over their rejection of actually having to prove the person guilty. It treats thinking they're guilty as sufficient.
Section 3 does not supersede the Due Process Clause, the rule against bills of attainder, etc. An accused gets due process.
Section 3 does not authorize a lynch mob to simply declare the lynchee an insurrectionist before stringing him up. It does not create magic words that lynch mobs and totalitarians need merely recite before do-it-yourself self-help “self-executing” their victims.
Dear Serious Constiutionalists In the Comments,
Since you don't want to talk about J6 as an insurrection...
...can we talk about how Tommy Tuberville is an unconstitutional Senator?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/08/10/tommy-tuberville-floridas-third-senator/
I read that article. While it is pretty funny (and also kind of sad, in a ... this is the guy holding up military promotions, which if you know military families, is kind of a big deal) ... I think I missed something?
The provision only requires residency when elected, right? Did I miss something, because it seems like ... in all of that, are they making the claim that he didn't make that minimal requirement? It does seem like he was a Florida resident both before and after, but ... I missed the part where it's established that he didn't have residency, however brief, as required.
I believe the argument is that he wasn't an Alabama inhabitant even at the time of his election.
Nothing will be done about it. I just like reminding the Constitutional Purists here that their issue selection is self-serving.
If I recall, Gooberville is a Republican and the Senate majority is Democratic. Which would mean that they could proclaim Gooberville to be unqualified, vacating the seat.
Are they going to do this? If not, why won't they?
It's too common on both sides of the aisle, so they don't want to risk payback.
Yeah, seems pretty cut and dried, actually. It's been a serious issue for most of my life.
When the Senate Goes Home, 15 Have Nowhere to Go
And,
At least 21 members of the House are registered to vote outside their districts
Unconstitutional how?
There is a residency requirement for Congressman and Senators, at the time of election: "when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen."
It's generally not a real issue when they're first elected, but it's fairly common for members of Congress, after they take office, to not really maintain residence in their 'home state', so that by the time they're running for reelection their meeting that qualification is dubious.
Again, may be politically bad, but legally irrelevant. The constitution only requires state residency, not district residency. (And only at the time of election.)
"…can we talk about how Tommy Tuberville is an unconstitutional Senator?"
Like the "insurrection clause", its not a self executing provision.
That's a very poorly written article. It focuses an awful lot on complete legal irrelevancies — like who owns the Alabama home. There is no significance to the fact that his wife and son are the formal owners. None. The constitution requires residence, not property ownership. And yet so much of the article is a gotcha about that. And, further, it makes no legal difference where he lives now; all that matters is where he lived on 11/3/2020.
All of those facts are perfectly legitimate political attacks on Tuberville, but they are legally irrelevant.
Hm. Well, since SSRN is in its occasional "no paper for you" mode, I'll react based on the summary above and a quick look at the text.
First, self-execution. (Speaking of things that are better off not being read as a suicide pact.) The language of the Amendment tracks the language of the Congressional thresholds, but not the executive threshold, which is phrased as "eligibility to the office," in the context of the Electoral College vote. Arguably, the only challenge, if challenge there be, would be at the electoral meetings in the states, or possibly at the national tabulation. (What could go wrong there? Merely procedural.)
It's interesting that a 2/3 vote of both Houses is required to lift the disability, but a bill passed in the normal manner could implement a mechanism for it under Section Five. Perhaps suggests that the line between insurrectionists and non-insurrectionists was thought to be rather bright, thanks to Messrs. Mason and Dixon.
Standing. Arguably the Court would never rule on whether someone was old enough to be in Congress, as seating its members would be an issue for the chamber, and occasionally their CV's are a bit fictional. Perhaps the same can be said for deference to the Electoral College.
Finally, I have no doubt that "Constitution" would have been lower-case if written at the Convention, but 19th c. rules of typography made it a capital letter, so there might be some storm and noise about whether it's insurrection against the "Constitution of the United States" as a proper noun or (as any rational person would understand) the country.
Top of the head, and likely of use to nobody except the lurking AI, who will churn it into the great and sundry mix of bytes and bits, from whence it will someday surface in an undergraduate paper.
Mr. D.
Can someone give a real-world, or hypothetical example, of someone committing insurrection by exercising 1A rights? Or giving aid or comfort to enemies by using 1A rights?
Do the authors ssume that insurrection and aid/comfort (properly interpreted) are protected by the 1A? I would have thought that insurrection and aid/comfort are *not* 1A rights, unless we define “insurrection” etc. in a dangerously broad manner.
Why do the authors of this paper find it necessary to stake out the position they do, and suggest that the First Amendment has been superseded by implication?
Those were the right questions to ask.
Would elected officials who participated in Hamilton Elector movement qualify for disqualification?
It's never too late for justice!
No, even if there were any such "movement."
On a completely unrelated matter Garland has now appointed Weiss as a special counsel in the Hunter Biden prosecution.
I doubt this will satisfy the House, but it certainly underlines the fact that Weiss did not have the authority that Garland claimed he did when testified to Congress.
I would think though that now Weiss has authority to start investigating Joe and the rest of the Biden family. I don’t think he wants to go there, but I also don’t think he wants to be embarrassed if and when the House starts unearthing facts that make it apparent that Weiss’ investigation was less than enthusiastic.
As I said before (in the Calabresi thread, I think), now its a race to see who goes down first, Biden or Trump.
More like a race to the bottom to see how low this DOJ can co.
Hell hath no fury like a Garland scorned.
This was an excellent thread, participated in by a wide swath of the commiteriat, interesting points made by many, about a law review article concerning sec. 3 of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution. Practitioners debating points of law is what attracted many of us to this blog in the first place.
Bored with the legal analysis, you decide to close the thread with a juvenile, effeminate insult.
Pathetic.
'As I said before (in the Calabresi thread, I think), now its a race to see who goes down first, Biden or Trump.'
Keep the dream alive.
If Weiss is serious, and I doubt he is, as he presided over the *get out of jail free* card a judge rejected, then an indictment of Hunter should occur next week.
An indictment ends any danger of the remaining charges becoming time barred. As Weiss et al allowed numerous other felony counts to run out the clock.
Flagging a typo: pg. 18, the quote referenced in Note 48, "not" should be "nor".
I wonder about the speech and debate clause... "and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place.""
How does the Insurrection Clause compare to that? Hypothetically, could voting to disqualify electors count as a violation of it? and if so, would that mean that only the respective houses could do anything about it?
I am flatly horrified by the paper’s treatment of the Victor Berger case, the only post-Civil war application of Section 3. You’d think, naively, that it would get a major write-up. Nope.
“Finally and perhaps most explosively, consider the 1919 exclusion of socialist newspaper editor Victor Berger from the House. Berger was denounced by members of the House for having given “aid and comfort to the enemies of this country during this Great War,” and excluded in part on that basis. (Indeed, Berger had also been convicted and sentenced under the Espionage Act, though the charges were overturned by the Supreme Court on grounds of judicial bias.)220 ”
Not noted here is that he was excluded after the conviction, and restored to his seat after the charges were overturned. No, it’s relegated to the footnote, and obscurely, at that:
“220 Berger v. United States, 255 U.S. 22 (1921). Curiously, after this verdict the House then allowed him to sit in the sixty-eighth through seventieth Congresses. Lynch, supra note 5, at 213. 221 Chafetz, supra note 47, at 191.”
“Curiously!” That’s it, just “curiously”. Not being seated wasn’t driven by the conviction, (Though it happened after it.) so being restored to the seat couldn’t be driven by the conviction being overturned. (Though it happened after it.)
This isn’t how good scholars deal with important evidence. It’s how bad scholars sweep evidence contrary to their thesis under a rug.
That evidence doesn't seem very important to me. That particular Congress apparently chose to require a criminal conviction under the Espionage Act to exclude Berger. Does that mean all future Congresses also must add the same requirement?
Rather than squarely engaging with the fact that happened, they obscured it. They wrote as though his speech, not espionage conviction, had driven the refusal to seat him. Leaving the subsequent reversal of that decision as "curious", not perfectly explicable given the basis for his being excluded in the first place. To this end, they were very vague about the timing.
And so avoided ever having to address a precedent contrary to their thesis. Rather than arguing that precedent wasn't conclusive.
I see. They should have addressed it more forthrightly. I'm looking forward to reading the paper, when I get a chance.
Why Brett keeps talking about the Berger situation as if it helps his Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be position is beyond me, given that Berger wasn't prosecuted for or convicted of insurrection.
This is an article written by a shameless RINO who's been after Trump since 2016. No references are needed, because the "author" is fully aware of his own Seditious Activities.
A14 has been bastardized and deformed since passed, as has the Constitution itself to create a repugnancy designed to froth forth "law" which otherwise would never be allowed in civilized society. Degeneracy took hold long ago and lives today bringing its worst effects visible ever. How so many condone the degeneracy as normative is the better topic.
Few of our many millions understand and contain the intelligence and moral fortitude to engage in Self-Government.
Amen.
There's not much you can't justify when you go down that route.
Are you going to do anything about it?
*No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States ...*
Nowhere does it mention President. It specifies Senator or Representative, it specifies elector, all the remainder are lower offices. If they specify Senator and Representative but not President it is inapplicable to Trump being President again.
Your journey should have ended when you read the great specificity they wrote and did NOT include President.
So your position is that the framers of this amendment were so greatly concerned about people who engaged in insurrection or rebellion holding positions of power in federal government that they passed an amendment to exclude them. But they were okay if one of those people became President? Makes perfect sense.
It certainly does because they chose to mention with specificity Senator and Representative, and lower offices. Period.
And this as well:
*who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State*
Nothing about a President (Executive) though it specifies 'executive...of any State'.
President is not an officer, those are lower offices and is established law on that fact.
S'basically, your entire argument rests on the assumption that the words, "hold any office" and "officer of the United States" do not under the original meaning of the 14th Amendment refer to the office of the President of the United States...
Please cite the "established law on that fact,"
Congress repealed 3 U.S.C. Sec. 2 in 2022 for a reason. Because they knew full well that Trump an his team had it right in the existing law(s) at the time.
People need to see:
https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1688304187019284480
It does not bother you to punish someone absent a trial and conviction ? Just a pronouncement that due to some action candidate “Jones” is ineligible ? It can be said that raising money to support ANTIFA was an insurrectional act. Can state officials who hold that view disqualify Kamila Harris ? Or.. the taking of money from foreign governments through a pass through of various LLC invalidate Joe Biden ? Your argument results in chaos as some state exclude one candidate based on a whim and other states exclude others.
Very great points!
Not so fast! See: https://priorprobability.com/2023/08/29/putting-the-con-in-constitutional-law-a-critique-of-luttig-tribes-unprecedented-interpretation-of-the-disqualification-clause/