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Lawsuit Over Firing of Sports Show Host for Tweeting "ALL LIVES MATTER…EVERY SINGLE ONE" Can Go Forward
So says a federal judge in California, applying statutes that protect private employees from firing based on their "political activities."
Though the First Amendment generally limits only actions by the government, many states have statutes that limit even private employers' ability to fire employees for their political activities (see this article for more details); some of them broadly cover ideological advocacy, and not just election-related activities:
In particular, two California statutes, enacted in 1937, provide:
[Cal. Labor Code § 1101:] No employer shall make, adopt, or enforce any rule, regulation, or policy: (a) Forbidding or preventing employees from engaging or participating in politics … [or] (b) Controlling or directing, or tending to control or direct the political activities or affiliations of employees.
[§ 1102:] No employer shall coerce or influence or attempt to coerce or influence his employees through or by means of threat of discharge or loss of employment to adopt or follow or refrain from adopting or following any particular course or line of political action or political activity.
And Napear v. Bonneville Int'l Corp., decided yesterday by Judge Dale A. Drozd (E.D. Cal.), allowed claims under these statutes to go forward:
Plaintiff was an on-air talk show host for a popular sports radio talk show in the Sacramento region for approximately 25 years…. On the evening of May 31, 2020, plaintiff was at his home watching regional and national news broadcasts that were televising events involving protests over the death of George Floyd in Minnesota. At approximately 8:30 p.m., DeMarcus Cousins, a former Sacramento Kings player, posted a tweet on his Twitter account that was directed at plaintiff and asked him: "What's your take on BLM [Black Lives Matter]?" Plaintiff responded to Mr. Cousins' tweet with a tweet of his own: "Hey!!! How are you? Thought you forgot about me. Haven't heard from you in years. ALL LIVES MATTER…EVERY SINGLE ONE."
The following day, on June 1, 2020, defendant's representative … informed plaintiff that he was suspended from his radio show. The day after that, on June 2, 2020, defendant informed plaintiff that he was being terminated for cause as defined in his employment contract. Specifically, defendant maintained that plaintiff was terminated pursuant to paragraph 6(c)(vii), which states that "the term 'Cause' shall be defined as any of the following conduct by Employee, as determined by the Company in its reasonable discretion: … Any act of material dishonesty, misconduct, or other conduct that might discredit the goodwill, good name, or reputation of the Company." …
For purposes of §§ 1101 and 1102, the California Supreme Court has defined "political activity" "as extending beyond 'partisan activity' to include 'the espousal of a candidate or a cause, and some degree of action to promote the acceptance thereof by other persons.'"
[T]he court finds that plaintiff has sufficiently alleged a "rule, regulation, or policy" under § 1101 by alleging in the SAC that defendant used his termination "as an example to all other employees of the Company as an implicit warning that anyone that dared to speak out publicly and criticize the politics of the Black Lives Matter movement would be summarily terminated." Surdak v. DXC Tech. (C.D. Cal. 2022) (finding that "a reasonable jury could conclude that [the employer] disagreed with the political views expressed in or suggested by the tweet [concerning Lyndon Baines Johnson] and wanted to punish Plaintiff for, or discourage other employees from, expressing similar speech"); Nava v. Safeway, Inc. (Cal. Ct. App. 2013) (explaining that if plaintiff alleged that he "was fired for his particular political perspective … [of] being against same-sex marriage … it may be inferred that … [the employer] was in effect declaring that the espousal or advocacy of such political views will not be tolerated—then [the employer's] action constituted a violation of Labor Code sections 1101 and 1102")….
[T]he court [also] finds that plaintiff's tweet at issue in this case can be considered facially political in nature when construed in the light most favorable to plaintiff: it contained the phrase "All Lives Matter" in response to the question "What's your take on BLM?"; was published by public figures—plaintiff, a popular sports radio host, in response to, Mr. Cousins, a well-known professional basketball player; and the tweet was made just days after George Floyd's death. The foregoing allegations, particularly when construed in the light most favorable to plaintiff, are sufficient to allege that plaintiff's tweet was political speech regarding a specific cause, and that plausibly constitutes political activity under §§ 1101 and 1102. See Gay L. Students Assn. v. Pac. Tel. & Tel. Co. (Cal. 1979) (explaining that "political activity" "connotes the espousal of … a cause, and some degree of action to promote acceptance thereof by other persons," such as "participation in litigation," "the wearing of symbolic armbands," and "the association with others for the advancement of beliefs and ideas")….
Defendant argues plaintiff's termination was for a "legitimate, apolitical reason," specifically, that plaintiff's "'social media use is inseparably connected with the Company's public image and reputation' and his 'statements are likely to discredit the goodwill, good name, and reputation of Bonneville.'" Defendant also argues in its pending motion that "negative responses and reactions to the Tweet on Twitter support Bonneville's stated reason for the termination." …
[D]efendant has presented an argument that is more appropriate for consideration on summary judgment. The facts that defendant has drawn from in order to assert its alternative narrative regarding plaintiff's termination are not before the court on this motion to dismiss….
[T]he allegations of plaintiff's [Second Amended Complaint] address the pleading deficiencies that this court previously identified and include newly alleged facts plausibly indicating that plaintiff's termination was politically motivated. To begin with, plaintiff alleges that his termination occurred less than 48 hours after the tweet was published by plaintiff. Following plaintiff's swift termination, defendant issued a public statement explaining that plaintiff's "recent comments about the Black Lives Matter movement do not reflect the views or values of Bonneville International Corporation" and noting that the tweet's timing of occurring days after George Floyd's death "was particularly insensitive."
Moreover, plaintiff alleges that defendant used his termination "as an example" and "implicit warning" to those that "dared to speak out publicly and criticize the politics of the Black Lives Matter movement," which allegedly caused "several employees" to register "internal complaints" to defendant based on a concern that defendant was sending its employees this exact message. Finally, plaintiff alleged that there were seven individuals involved in his termination on behalf of defendant, and that each of them "objected to Plaintiff's May 31, 2020 tweet because of the political and/or religious nature of Plaintiff's six-word public message" and "expressed negative emotion … based on Plaintiff's public political message that 'ALL LIVES MATTER…EVERY SINGLE ONE.'"
Collectively, these allegations are sufficient to plausibly suggest that plaintiff's termination was motivated by plaintiff's political activity of posting a tweet containing a certain message. See Ross v. Indep. Living Res. of Contra Costa Cnty. (N.D. Cal. 2010) (finding that the plaintiff sufficiently stated a claim under § 1101 by alleging that his employer terminated him days after learning he brought a disability access lawsuit against a recreational facility, causing it to temporarily close, which generated news and internet coverage). In light of these new allegations, defendant's proffered reason for plaintiff's termination—that it was an apolitical business decision—is not so convincing such that it renders plaintiff's version of events implausible.
{In addition, contrary to defendant's contention, the court does not view plaintiff's current allegations as being contradicted by other allegations that defendant believed the tweet was "anti-BLM" or that defendant terminated plaintiff to "curry favor with the power Black Lives Matter political movement."} …
As a matter of California common law, "when an employer's discharge of an employee violates fundamental principles of public policy, the discharged employee may maintain a tort action and recover damages traditionally available in such actions." … [P]laintiff's wrongful termination claim may proceed [under this theory] to the extent it relies on his California Labor Code §§ 1101 and 1102 claim.
Matthew J. Ruggles represents Napear. Thanks to the Media Law Resource Center (MLRC) MediaLawDaily for the pointer.
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Black Olives Matter - especially on pizza's
Make America Grape Again
Rev Kirk - response - a bigoted old white guy should be fired for stating "all lives matter"
Black matter because all lives matter. The idea that only Aryan lives latter or only Black lives matter is racism straight up.
Any kind of punishment or firing over this silliness is ludicrous and obnoxious. That said, who’s so mentally-limited as to think “All Lives Matters” is some kind of masterful counterstroke or keen riposte of wit? Would the same person think “Save the Whales” consigns all other mammals to oblivion?
Probably not. More likely he’s just a whiny white person who thinks “those people” are getting something over on him that he should also have – in this case having their “lives matter”, for goodness sake.
It seems like nothing supports zero-sum thinking like a little pigment in the skin. Me? I’m perfectly happy to have “Black Lives Matter” without getting a piece of the action, my caucasian skin notwithstanding. Somehow I suspect I’ll get by….
Why? If you ask somebody, "What's your take on Save the Whales" and he responds, "I think we should save all endangered species!", do you think that he believes that "those mammals" are getting something they don't deserve?
I think all of this misses the point. It has never been in dispute that white lives matter, and whole point of BLM is that black lives matter too. There is an extensive and pervasive history of black lives not mattering. So by saying that all lives matter, one is really saying that the concerns of black people that their lives matter should either be ignored or mocked. Don’t play stupid and pretend otherwise.
So, using 12"s analogy, the real issue is that saying "all lives matter" takes the focus off the species that are actually endangered in favor of species that aren't.
"So by saying that all lives matter, one is really saying that the concerns of black people that their lives matter should either be ignored or mocked."
You think people who say "all lives matter" are saying that the idea that black lives matter should be mocked? Talk about playing stupid. I mean, they're literally saying the opposite.
"So, using 12″s analogy, the real issue is that saying “all lives matter” takes the focus off the species that are actually endangered in favor of species that aren’t."
1. It's not my analogy.
2. So what? You're not the boss of what Grant Napear gets to focus on.
Auschwitz Survivor: Something needs to be done about anti-Semitism.
Grant Napear: Gentile lives matter too.
Yes, I think the utter stupidity it takes to miss the point about why *some* lives need extra emphasis in terms of protection defies description, assuming it really is stupid rather than malicious. Nobody seriously disputes that Gentiles don't matter, but then Hitler didn't build Auschwitz for them. (Yes, I know, some gentiles died at Auschwitz but the final solution was directed at the Jews.)
the difference is that Hilter and the nazis specifically set out to kill the Jewish population
On the other hand, BLM was founded on the false belief that blacks were killed in disproportionate rates compared to whites by the police. Correcting for the much higher crime rates of blacks including violent crime, the death rate of black criminals from police shootings is disproportionately low compared to the death rate of white criminals.
In summary your analogy is intentionally deceptive.
Krychek does have a point of Black lives not mattering.
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/how-the-gun-control-debate-ignores-black-lives/80445/
Black lives did not matter to 6,000 people (give or take a few hundred) in 2012.
Oh wow, way to change the subject. You do that a lot.
The article I linked to actually reinforces your point.
There’s a difference between criminals killing people and government agents killing people. You understand that, right?
They genuinely do not care what the actual facts are.
They've been given their marching orders, so they are unshakeable in their march.
The police shootings were the immediate catalyst, but black lives matter is about a whole centuries long history of black lives not mattering. And every time you post, I get the impression you think black lives don't matter.
Oh no, he better not post again because whatever would he do if you thought he thought BIPOC lives DIDN"T MATTER!!
OH HEAVENS THAT"S THE WORSE THING IN THE WORLD!!!!
lol
That got Godwinned pretty quickly.
Godwin doesn't apply. Godwin is when someone says "you're acting the way the Nazis did." What I said is that the all lives matter crowd doesn't understand the nature of prejudice or why attacking prejudice has to focus on specific targets.
The suggestion, again, is that criminal cops only kill black people, so it's a uniquely black concern, which a search of (for instance) Reason archives can confirm is not so.
According to Wikipedia, "Godwin's law, short for Godwin's law (or rule) of Nazi analogies, is an Internet adage asserting that as an online discussion grows longer (regardless of topic or scope), the probability of a comparison to Nazis or Adolf Hitler approaches 1."
You're comparing criminal cops shooting black to the Nazis uniquely singling out Jews for extermination.
A better analog:
Auschwitz Survivor: Something needs to be done about anti-Semitism.
Someone Else: And all racial prejudice.
Or better:
Pro-Israel advocate:
Jewish lives matter!
Advocate of resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict:
All lives matter!
Get it now?
I get that you have trouble with basic logic.
Yes, all racial prejudice is bad, but some races suffer under it more than others. So addressing it directed to those races is more urgent.
Not necessarily. If you address all racial prejudice, you are also addressing it with respect to the races that suffer more.
And if you treat police brutality as a common problem that everyone has an interest in solving, you might get more engagement.
Sounds like you're the one who has trouble with basic logic.
Huh?
So you're reduced to making broad unsupported categorical claims? Ok then.
Your "explanation" is just a bad argument. You're claiming that a common way to dilute concerns about X is to mention other concerns, and therefore responding to "Black lives matter" with "All lives matter" is always an attempt to dilute concerns about violence against blacks. That's just a non-sequitur, and you don't even attempt to provide evidence that that's the case in this instance.
What's your response to the suggestion that many, or all, instances of "All lives matter" are simply attempts to view the topic in a race neutral manner?
I mean, people make the same argument to suggest that concerns about police violence are part of an attempt to dilute broader concerns about violence against black people.
But I suspect you don't buy those arguments.
Again, it may or may not dilute it. As you point out, different statements in different contexts have different meanings. It's on you to show that a specific statement "dilutes" a specific concern.
And even if it did, so what? BLM isn't king of what Grant Napear's focus should be. Being focused on all lives isn't evidence that Grant Napear thinks black lives don't matter.
I thought we were debating whether "by saying that all lives matter, one is really saying that the concerns of black people that their lives matter should either be ignored or mocked."
But is any event, you are free to think people should focus wherever you want. You are free to think that focusing on police violence diverts attention away from world hunger, or whatever. But it's not reasonable to get upset that someone is not focusing on your pet concern.
Sure. And an employer might reasonably find that endorsing a particular candidate might cause negative reactions to the employer. But California law says they can't fire an employee for that. That's what the thread's about, remember?
And the perceptions are way out of whack because of the overcoverage of black deaths. That’s why the public believes that the number of unarmed blacks killed by police annually is in the thousands when reality is it’s barely in the double digits.
Meanwhile there are some awful killings of whites by police that go completely uncovered. Quick, without looking tell me about Caroline Small or Daniel Shaver. No googling.
Small is maybe the worst case of police behavior I’m familiar with. They just fucking executed her, laughing while they did it.
And if the Small case had received the attention it deserved, it might have had some effect on a prominent recent case. A candidate running for prosecutor when Small was killed cut a deal with the local cops – support me in my election and in office I’ll cover up your misdeeds. They did and she did. That prosecutor then served until recently (10ish years) until she was indicted for trying to cover for the crackers who shot Ahmaud Arbery. A little light at the time might have spared a decade of corrupt prosecution. And made it easier to prosecute the wannabe Bull Connors. Unfortunately, Small had the wrong skin color.
I understand what you’re saying and wish cops could be incentivized to behave better, even though BLM as an organization is complete shit. But this stuff is more complicated than you’re making it.
I mean, yeah, but the killing of black men in America is in no way comparable to the Holocaust. If the Nazis had been killing 10 Jews a year nobody would remember it today.
A lot of it really isn’t even racially motivated. It’s just cops asserting their authoritah or being too scared to do their jobs. Or simply losing their tempers. Was there anything overtly racist about the killing of George Floyd? From what I know it was just an asshole cop showing his anger overcome his judgement.
This is my opinion alone : It's not just the rate of unjustified police killings but also a combination of other factors. It's the belief that police killings aren't adequately investigated, particularly without community pressure. It's the overall reaction to police killings in wider society, which often goes to extremes to justify police violence. And it's the day-to-day interaction with cops that sometimes feels like harassment in the black community.
Subtract these factors and the tragic mistake of a policeman might be seen as nothing more than that.
Just to attempt to cabin the parameters of your claim, suppose someone says,
"Police need to be held accountable when they murder black people!"
And someone else responds,
"Police need to be held accountable when they murder anybody!"
Is the second person claiming that "those people" are getting special protection from murder?
But do you actually believe that there are is any difference in the things you list when it comes to blacks compared to when they kill Hispanics or whites or Asians?
Because there isn’t. The same closely held investigation by peers of the cop followed by a bland announcement that the shooting was justified happens whenever there’s a stinky shooting regardless of the victim.
bevis the lumberjack : "But do you actually believe that there are is any difference in the things you list when it comes to blacks compared to when they kill Hispanics or whites or Asians?"
Yes. I do. If Ahmaud Arbery had been a white guy jogging, I don't think it would have taken two months for an arrest. If George Floyd had been a white guy with his head under someone's knee, I don't think there would have been one-tenth the labored justifications "explaining" how his death wasn't murder.
Sorry, but I'm afraid race still matters in this country.
Funny you should mention Aubery. The reason there was a delay was because of a corrupt DA who tried to cover for the crackers.
As I posted somewhere near here, that DA was originally elected by promising local cops she’d help them cover up the egregious shooting of a white lady if they helped her get elected.
It was a truly awful shooting. Perhaps if white lives also mattered the media would have covered it and she wouldn’t have been around to try to cover for the guys who murdered Aubery.
Wanna be really pissed off? Read this. The DA then-candidate mentioned in this story is the DA that covered for the Aubery killers.
https://investigations.ajc.com/caroline-small-shooting/
Jesus Freakin Christ.......
You're not going to believe this, bevis:
"Lt. Robert C. Sasser had a well-documented history of misconduct as a Glynn County police officer, but nothing outdid his final spectacle of violence Thursday when he shot and killed his estranged wife and her boyfriend, before fatally shooting himself in the chest. The incident has left authorities in Glynn County exposed to charges that one of their own was given special treatment that led to Thursday's killings. Sasser was one of the most notorious officers in Georgia after the brutal 2010 shooting death of Caroline Small....."
https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/cop-who-killed-caroline-small-shoots-self-after-killing-wife-man/R4pDsnaw9JpPB1pTtpqJGP/
Wow. I didn’t see that.
If only someone had noticed the Small story when it happened.
At least she (the DA) was charged with misconduct over the Aubery stuff.
Sounds like if Caroline Small's life had mattered, Ahmaud Arbery might still be alive. That's a pretty good argument for saving black lives by focusing on police violence generally, and not just against black people.
TwelveInchPianist : “You think people who say “all lives matter” are saying that the idea that black lives matter should be mocked? Talk about playing stupid. I mean, they’re literally saying the opposite”
Uh huh. Do you honestly think people who respond to “black lives matter” with “all lives matter” do so out of a warm feeling of common brotherhood and mutual empathy? Perhaps you do, also believing fluffy purple unicorns shit brilliant rainbow splendor.
But back on the real world, no one is fooled. The overwhelming majority of people replying thus do so from antagonism. They think “those people” are trying to steal a moment and want to yank it from their hands – like one toddler snatching the toy from another.
Brett is perfectly honest for once, at least from his white victimhood perspective. He’s not selling TIP’s fairytale of kinship and brotherhood, instead openly remaking “black lives matter” into yet another snowflake tale of white grievance.
It just never occurs to him that nobody needs feel victimized by “black lives matter” despite the pallor of his reflection in the mirror. That it is a conscious choice to stew and fret about what “those people” are trying to get away with. That his life would be happier & lighter without the whole white martyrdom shtick. But that’s his choice to make….
"Uh huh. Do you honestly think people who respond to “black lives matter” with “all lives matter” do so out of a warm feeling of common brotherhood and mutual empathy? Perhaps you do, also believing fluffy purple unicorns shit brilliant rainbow splendor."
If that's the best argument you've got, I feel confident in my position.
Do you think insisting Black Lives Matter to the exclusion of all others, in turn, fosters a warm feeling of common brotherhood and mutual empathy?
I would think a fifth grader could figure out that two people bonding over a common problem would foster warm feelings of common brotherhood and mutual empathy, then one person demanding the other person focus solely on them and insisting that everyone ignores the other.
How about you? Are Smarter Than a 5th Grader?
BravoCharlieDelta : “Do you think insisting Black Lives Matter to the exclusion of all others ….”
I guess I need to repeat myself even more emphatically: I don’t give the slightest FUCK that “black lives matters” is “to the exclusion of all others”. First, no one has to see it that way; it’s a crabbed & mean-spirited choice to do so. Second, I don’t dedicate my live to mewling victimhood like you. So it doesn’t move my needle on common brotherhood a bit. I had it before; I had it after.
Personally, I can’t imagine the crippled mind of someone who stews in choler and bile because they think “black lives matters” leaves them out. Some people’s heads are just broken.
"Personally, I can’t imagine the crippled mind of someone who stews in choler and bile because they think “black lives matters” leaves them out."
But you have a pretty good grasp of the crippled mind of someone who stews in choler and bile because some people choose to eliminate the ambiguity and say that all lives matter.
Can you imagine the even more crippled mind of someone who stews in choler and bile because they think "all lives matter" somehow leaves them out?
But this story isn't about "Black Lives Matter"...
I think everyone forgotten about that. After a brief scan, I believe I’m the only other person who even mentioned the subject of the O.P. (however briefly).
If you give a bunch of faux-conservative angry white trolls a phony excuse to go off on the black race, please don’t be surprised if they lose track of everything else – including their immediate surroundings, sense of ethics and all dignity. Kinda hard to keep everything ordered & straight when you’re foaming at the mouth.
Don't play Brett, being hyperliteral when convenient. 99% of the people saying it are saying it to mock BLM.
Wow. Any support for that claim? There are much better ways to mock BLM.
I would assume that 99% of people saying it are saying it because many of us have been trained to avoid focusing on race if it's not germane to the issue. "Jimmy's one of my Jewish friends."
I mean, the anti-racist folks insist that demanding color-blindedness is a quite prevalent form of white supremacy.
It seems likely that in many instances changing "Black lives matter" to "All lives matter" can stem from a simple desire to be color-blind.
Just think:
If one of these posters said "Police shouldn't shoot any people" and someone responded "Police shouldn't should black people", do you think they'd respond the same?
Being colorblind and inclusive is a sometimes food, I guess.
BLM should be mocked -
Its status / prestige exploded based on the false belief that blacks were being killed by white police officers in record numbers and disproportionately. The Reality is that deaths of blacks from police officers was much lower when measured against the number of violent crimes committed by blacks in comparison to other races.
You already know that yet you want to perpetuate that falsehood
" It has never been in dispute that white lives matter, and whole point of BLM is that black lives matter too."
If it was just a matter of black lives mattering, too, saying all lives matter wouldn't get you in trouble, because black lives are part of "all lives", you'd be agreeing. The reason it gets people in trouble is that there really IS an unspoken "only" in that slogan.
That's the dark undercurrent of BLM. They're racial supremacists.
I doubt they're "supremacist" in a white supremacist sense.
Maybe in an "orange supremacist" sense (only caring about one's own race), though.
I never understood why they didn't name the movement, "Black Lives Also Matter". By leaving out the also, it seems almost like bait to stimulate exactly the kinds of controversy this post and these comments are about.
In other words, I think the BLM title is meant to further divide the public, not unite.
You want police to go "BLAM!" whenever they see a black guy? I thought that was the problem.
Statistically speaking, no that's not the problem.
Well, yeah. I'd even say "Duh!"
If you're a racial grievance grifter, racial harmony would be a disaster, you want tensions as high as possible.
That's why they always pick such utter pieces of work for their poster boys. Michael Brown. Trayvon Martin. If they made somebody everybody could agree was wronged their poster boy, you'd get harmony, not grievances!
Yes, "They." Brett, you are seriously mentally ill.
Philando Castile? Breonna Taylor?
There was absolutely nothing Castille could have done beyond what he did to avoid getting shot. Did his killing fill you with harmony? Do you even know who the fuck he was?
And if Travon Martin has been allowed to simply finish walking home without being pestered by a wannabe Dirty Harry we’d have never heard of him. “They” had nothing to do with choosing him.
Well, part of the problem is BLM's lack of credibility cause by treating cases like Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin the same as cases like Philando Castille and Breonna Taylor. In the process they draw a lot attention to themselves protesting perfectly justified killings. I mean, they tried to get the cop who shot Ma'Khia Bryant prosecuted for literally saving a black girl's life.
"And if Travon Martin has been allowed to simply finish walking home"
See how delusional you are, how backwards your description of what happened is? He literally WAS allowed to finish walking home. He turned around and went back to attack Zimmerman of his own free will!
"Pestered"? There's no evidence that Zimmerman got anywhere near him until Martin made a point of attacking him! If anything, Martin "pestered" Zimmerman, not the other way around. If you want to call a life threatening beatdown "pestering".
That's WHY Martin is the poster boy: Because there isn't a ghost of a chance we'll come together over a guy who got shot in self defense by somebody whose head he was trying to pound through the pavement. You can be confident there won't be any racial healing if you pick somebody like Martin as your hero.
He finished waking home with a stranger stalking him. Being able to finish walking home means leave him the fuck alone. You can bother and disrupt someone without touching him.
I mean, if some stranger follows you everywhere you go and when you’re home sits in the street and watches your house, no problem, right? He’s leaving you alone.
Sometimes you’re a close minded pig. If I were followed by a creepy stranger walking through my neighborhood it would sure piss me off. It would you to. Zimmerman had no reason to pay any attention to Martin. His recklessness started the cascade.
" It would you to."
No, it wouldn't. What kind of warped individual are you, anyway, that you think walking on the same sidewalk as somebody else is a provocation that justifies assaulting them? You have any idea how violent society would be if that sort of thinking were remotely common?
That's what's flabbergasted me about this whole thing: Finding out how many people out there actually think sharing a sidewalk with somebody and looking at them is a horrible offence, fully justifying delivering a beatdown.
Because that's all Zimmerman did: Walk on the same sidewalk, not even particularly close to Martin, and look at him. The fiend!
Brett, you’re writing a fucking narrative. The issue was that Zimmerman put himself where he had no business being. He had reason to get out of his car when Martin walked by. That action, for which there is no justification, started the whole thing.
After that you’ve just making shit up. You’re getting so righteous over something about which you have no knowledge. You have no idea what happened after Zimmerman left his vehicle.
And through all of this preachy bullshit you haven’t come up with a justification for Zimmerman to leave his truck.
Queen almathea : “…. Does anyone think hyper paranoid Brett wouldn’t think some odd thoughts ….”
Well, there’s the Brett who see secret machinations, nefarious plots and hidden conspiracies everywhere, and there’s the Brett who can’t notice raw criminality screaming its lungs out six inches from his nose.
So it would depend if Donald Trump was blatantly stalking Brett on a dark lonely street. In that case, he wouldn’t notice a damn thing….
"Does anyone think hyper paranoid Brett wouldn’t think some odd thoughts if a guy blatantly followed him through a neighborhood at night?"
I live in a mixed race neighborhood, if I'm out for a walk in the evening odds are it IS a black guy walking on the same road with me. (What is it with the South not having sidewalks, anyway?) Has it never come to your attention just how much of your 'reasoning' is dependent on assuming without evidence that everybody who disagrees with you is despicable?
" The issue was that Zimmerman put himself where he had no business being."
He was literally in his own neighborhood. You're claiming a white guy isn't allowed to use the same sidewalk as a black guy in his own neighborhood. And you think I'm the unreasonable one here.
"And through all of this preachy bullshit you haven’t come up with a justification for Zimmerman to leave his truck."
He. Didn't. Need. A. Justification. Do you not understand that? How can you not grasp that? He had a perfect right to be there, to use the sidewalk even if there was a black guy using it, too, even to glance at the guy if he wanted!
I understand that Martin got appointed the poster boy, which means you feel an obligation to rationalize, somehow that he wasn't the aggressor, that SOMETHING Zimmerman did justified turning around and assaulting him. But try to think about the principles you're defending here, they're monsterous!
Back to my thesis: This exact conversation is WHY they picked Trayvon Martin as a poster boy: It would create arguments instead of agreement!
Gross exaggeration of what happened. Zimmerman was working as part of Neighborhood watch. He noticed Martin not just walking down the street on his way to his temporary home, but also up on the lawn of a couple houses looking into windows. There had been burglaries in the neighborhood, so the police had told NW to keep their eyes open for suspicious activities. So, Zimmerman called the police on their non-emergency number that they had given NW for just that purpose, and told them of the suspicious activities - of a stranger looking into windows of houses he didn’t live in. Race never was a part of it - because Zimmerman couldn’t identify Martin’s race at that time, because he had his hoody over his head. The early report to the contrary was a result of selective editing by a news channel of the police tape of Zimmerman’s phone call to them. The entire call was played in court, and it showed just the opposite.
The thing that is very often ignored is that Martin probably was engaged in burglaries in the neighborhood, and that he was indeed casing those houses. Not for sure, but there was plenty of evidence suggesting it, including his juvenile record back in Miami.
This is what NW does - they look for suspicious activity in the neighborhood, and report it to the police. The police then do with that information what they will. That is what I would have done if I had seen someone walking up to multiple windows, and looking into other people’s houses, esp after reports of burglaries in the neighborhood.
The rest of the narrative is just nonsense. Martin died because he committed aggravated assault on Zimmerman, placing his life in jeopardy. He snuck up behind him, sucker punched him, knocked him to the ground, climbed on top of him, MMA style, beat his head into the concrete walk, then tried to strangle him when he tried to yell out for help. A jury found that Zimmerman had killed Martin in legally justified self defense. That necessarily meant that Martin’s attack on him had been legally unjustified (as one of the elements of self defense).
The defenses of Martin invariably assume that he had justifiably assaulted Zimmerman. But disrespecting someone is never legal justification for a violent attack, that could possibly have resulted in death or great bodily injury to the victim of that attack. Even if race had been relevant (as noted above - it wasn’t).
"And if Travon Martin has been allowed to simply finish walking home without being pestered by a wannabe Dirty Harry we’d have never heard of him. “They” had nothing to do with choosing him."
If Trayvon decided to not murder somebody who did, LITERALLY, nothing to him, he'd be a nobody. FAFO.
"It has never been in dispute that white lives matter, and whole point of BLM is that black lives matter too."
Well, let's see. There is certainly a dispute about whether or not cops, many of whom are white, are given enough leeway to defend themselves.
And there's also a dispute about whether or not some of the proposed means of protecting black lives, like defunding the police, actually result in greater loss of life.
It hasn't occurred to you that maybe people who say that all lives matter are suggesting we be wary of these tradeoffs, instead of simply saying that black lives don't matter?
Wait, someone actually said that? Has there been a wave of arrests of cops for killing unarmed whites that I missed? No, there hasn’t. Questionable shootings of whites get the same “we’re investigating and now we found the shooting justified” treatment as all other shootings.
When it comes to brutality by cops, white lives don’t matter at all. No lives do, except for the occasional Rich Guy’s Kid’s life, I guess.
If a white dude did what Trayvon Martin did, for example, you'd not see anybody defending the white dude who got killed.
Take the IDENTICAL facts of the case. Black dude getting out of vehicle and walking near the white guy. White guy gets mad and decides to beat him up on the street, possibly crippling/killing him. White dude gets shot.
You wouldn't see many white folks bemoaning how unfair the white guy's death was. They'd say he got what he deserved for what he did.
Too who?
“So by saying that all lives matter, one is really saying that the concerns of black people that their lives matter should either be ignored or mocked.”
Making the subtext explicit:
“So by saying that all lives matter, one” may be “saying that the” sacred and exalted “concerns of black people” , who must always be treated with special reverence, “that their lives matter should either be ignored or mocked.” like the unworthy commoners’ profane concerns.
the issue of course being when the people whose lives you say matter in turn do not respect the lives of others within the same group there is no real chance of improving their outcome.
the reason many are dismissive of the black lives matter is both the leadership of the organization shown to be frauds and grifters but also the sheer magnitude of black on black violence beggars the question, if black lives matter then why is black on black violence not highlighted as an issue needed immediate correction.
I agree. Responding to “Breast Cancer Matters” with “All Cancer Matters,” for instance, can be fairly understood as a rather annoying rebuke. But it’s still an absurd reason to fire someone.
But maybe a warranted rebuke. It's pretty conspicuous the way diseases that affect women get ribbons, and diseases that affect men don't, even if they kill more people. There seems to be a bit of bias involved.
Actually, there was (and still is) substantial dispute that "white lives matter". Remember that when this whole fiasco started, it was in the context of a very broad-based support for general police reform. That reform movement was hijacked by racially motivated activists and the exclusive focus on race actually killed off the real reform efforts. "All lives matter" was, to some of us at least, an attempt to put the focus back where it belonged - on reforming the worst procedural abuses by police.
"Save the Whales!"
First response: "Nuke the gay baby whales for Jesus!"
Second response: "Which species of whales?"
If you post a "All Lives Matter" sign somewhere, you'll get a visit from the FBI.
So there's that. The Democrat DOJ thinks it's super important to share that message. It probably harms out national security.
If you post a[n] “All Lives Matter” sign somewhere, you will not, in fact, get a visit from the FBI. Now, if you post the things BCD does, like "Kill all the N-words," you may get such a visit.
Then there's BCD's posts obsessively focused on Chinese penis size. One would hope that earns a visit from white-coated gentlemen walking on tiptoes & carrying a big net, but I understand the laws of involuntary institutionalization are much stricter now.
You're still tender from me dunking on you so badly the past few days I see.
I am genuinely sorry I hurt your feelings so badly. Will you forgive me?
grb,
If you look at the outcomes from the BLM movement, what do we see?
A handful of blacks got incredibly incredibly rich, moved out of black ghetto's and into White neighborhoods.
Nearly every other black got jack shit.
What would a disparate impact analysis say as to the purpose of the BLM movement?
BravoCharlieDelta : " ... disparate impact analysis ..."
Now do every other protest movement in the history of modern politics. Of course that simple response didn't occur to you, did it? When your head is full of racial gremlins and bugaboos, even the simplest logic evades your grasp.
It would be healthy if you understood that as a problem.....
So every other protest movement in the history of modern politics resulted in a handful of people getting rich and then literally nothing else?
Like BLM?
I understand the problem alright, you people got intentionally worked up by your puppet masters and 4 years later you aren't the slightest curious as to why the movement fucking vanished without a single accomplishment.
Oh, come on, they had accomplishments. For instance, a lot of rioting and looting. Pretty organized looting, actually, makes you wonder where all that money ended up.
Candace Owens talked to George Floyd's roommates where he lived when he died and they said neither they nor Floyd's family got a penny from BLM at any point.
Fuck the Whales -- Save the Maine Lobstermen.
They want to ban lobstering -- yet have no problem filling the ocean full of windmills. Somehow a solid metal pole is less injurous than a 3/8" rope.
I saw zero windmills on my last monthly drive up Route 1. Or any other time.
Why do you waste your time casting your pearls before us swine? Why not write a book?
Deranged in Daramascota, maybe.
Two weeks ago you can, and we did, buy 4 lobsters close to 6 lbs for a twenty.
Yeah, windmills.
Lefties are more interested in whether something is a "keen riposte of wit" than whether it is true, sincere, virtuous, genuine, compassionate, practical, helpful, etc.
That's why they believe so many false things.
Is use of a Mercator projection protected by the First Amendment, or is it an act rather than speech?
Hey – I’m ready to go with that debate and dump the rest of this nonsense. Watching a forum full of white winger men work themselves into a tizzy over the effrontery of blacks is just too damn depressing
Let’s say we lay out Culture War bait to draw’em in :
Is the Mercator projection influenced by First World imperialism ?!?
Inquiring minds want to know.
CONFORMAL MAPS are TOOLS of the PATRIARCHY. And of long-distance navigators.
To thwart this oppression, we must use equitable-area projections like the Black Countries Matter map, which also uses the four-color theorem to color all countries either red, black, green, or thumbs-down.
And we have our first sucker.....
Whooosh, went the joke over the troll's head.
There’s a difference between criminals killing people and government agents killing people. You understand that, right?
What is it, the former rise again the next day, maybe?
Fuck off, slaver. Brett is apparently fine with cops acting like gangbangers. No difference, right?
The funny thing is, you're the one claiming there's a difference! Did you somehow not notice that, as you composed that jibe?
Since you're going to be particularly resistant to understanding anything I say, I suppose I should make this really explicit:
There's essentially no difference between criminals killing people, and government agents killing people. Dead is dead, and if the government agents had no good reason for the killing, they ARE criminals. Just criminals with badges. Whereas even criminals have a right to kill in genuine self defense, if the occasion arises.
So, fundamentally, it's the same thing: Somebody killed somebody, and maybe it was justified, maybe it wasn't. The presence of a badge doesn't enter into the analysis in my opinion.
"Watching a forum full of white winger men work themselves into a tizzy over the effrontery of blacks is just too damn depressing"
A clique of activists of diverse races has managed to spread the meme that a basic affirmation of human rights is bad, and that people should be upset about it. And if you actually reject this Orwellian crap and believe in basic human rights for everyone you're a racist. What a wholesome, unifying message!
Imagine 60 years ago, someone saying that "every life matters."
Amazing how times have changed....
See? That could be one of your chapter titles.
Probably an early chapter, to kind of set the gloom, doom and disconnect from reality that will follow.
MLK, the Pope, RFK?
Which scoundrels appear in this particular episode of your delusions?
“There is an extensive and pervasive history of black lives not mattering. So by saying that all lives matter, one is really saying that the concerns of black people that their lives matter should either be ignored or mocked.”
In the specific context of the Black Lives Matter movement, the suggestion is that only black people get killed by criminal cops, and white people never need worry about it happening to them.
Yet there have been instances of white people getting killed by criminal cops – some of this was covered at Reason.
Because this is an inconvenient truth, the acknowledgement of which gets in the way of effective race-baiting, then racists naturally object to all lives mattering.
The idea that some races are so privileged that it is offensive and superfluous to say their lives matter – that is simple racism.
“All lives matter” is anti-racism.
In the specific context of the Black Lives Matter movement, the suggestion is that only black people get killed by criminal cops, and white people never need worry about it happening to them.
Yes, this is the strawman the right puts forth. In reality, do you think anyone was trying to make that bit of nonsense into a slogan?
Some people do seriously say such stupid things. And get huge platforms to do so.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html
So criminal cops sometimes kill white guys, and you’re against it, you just don’t want to say that the victims’ lives matter.
Let me ask you:
Do black lives matter?
Do Asian lives matter?
Do Native American lives matter?
Do Pacific Islander lives matter?
Now for some more difficult questions (for you anyway):
Do hispanic lives matter – including white hispanics?
Do gay lives matter – including gay whites?
Do trans lives matter – including trans whites?
Do homeless lives matter – including white homeless? (I recall a video of police killing a white homeless guy)
Now we’re making progress…you’ve at least included the majority of the world’s population into the category of lives that matter. You’ve even acknowledged that there are white people whose lives matter.
Now that you’ve embraced the majority of the human race, why not embrace all of it, and proclaim that all human lives matter?
No Lives Matter.
...and that's how you finally unite everyone.
That’s how it is now. Seeing a lot of unity?
Have I got the presidential candidate for you: https://sweetmeteorofdeath.com/
Cthulu has always been the better candidate for nihilists.
If you say a person's life matters, evil people may take unjust action against you depending on the race of that person. Best to keep such evil people as far from you as possible.
Glad to see this case! Mr. Napear was a great play by play guy for the Kings. After being fired due to his politics, he was replaced by Mark Jones, who enjoys ranting on air about how racist Utahns are, and his disgust for the police.
The court did dismiss the allegations that termination was religious discrimination.
I find this reasoning suspect, though:
I remember a story of somebody who sent a tweet at the start of a long flight and was terminated by the time she landed. You can be cancelled that fast.
Huh? Of course context matters. But no one's provided any support for their claims that the context here transfers the plain meaning of "All lives matter" to either a claim that black lives don't matter, or that "those people" are getting something that I'm not.
Yeah, your mom hates it when I do that. But she puts out anyway.
But again, you're making a non-sequitur. I get that you educators are trained to believe that reason is white supremacy, but come on.
The fact that your mom interprets my words one way doesn't imply that we should interpret "All lives matter" to mean "black lives don't matter."
Wait…black people are like a jealous girlfriend?
This is getting weird…let’s just go back to the Hitler comparisons.
Wow. Dishonest much? I freely admit that your mom would not be a-ok with "we’ll, honey you’re included in that general statement”.
But that has nothing to do with how we should interpret Grand Napear saying "All lives matter."
Of course, saying "it's basic human experience" isn't an argument. To make arguments, we use facts and reason to support our conclusions. But you don't have either, so you're forced to rather obviously misrepresent what I said.
So we are in agreement: saying all lives matter is like saying nobody is ugly.
Referring to Nazis and jealous girlfriends in response to a basic affirmation of human rights - you really have to go out of your way to be this offended.
Sigh. Of course. But you don't get to claim that because I understand why your mom would be upset in one situation, I should agree that it makes sense for someone else to be pissed in a slightly similar situation. That's not how analogies work.
And your analogy sucks anyway. Note that your reasoning depends on your mom being my girlfriend. AFAIK, neither grb, Krycheck_2, or you are Grant Napear's girlfriend.
Now, if the analogy is that a strange woman confronts you on the street and says, "You don't think I'm ugly do you?", then "I don't think anyone is ugly." is a perfectly reasonable response.
This is an example of how analogies can lead you astray. In order for your analogy to work, you had to create a hypo where it would be reasonable for someone to be upset that I made a general statement instead of one directed specifically at her, and then try to extend your reasoning to a situation where it would be unreasonable.
Sigh. I accepted your premise, that it would be unreasonable for your mom to be upset in your hypo. But your conclusion, that we should be upset when Grant Napear says "All lives matter" doesn't follow from that.
No, it's pretty obvious from the reaction to "all" that there's an implied "only".
The BLM slogan as is implies that to angry, controlling, arrogant cops that all the non-black lives do matter. But it’s undeniable that those lives don’t matter either.
I don’t care about BLM vs ALM vs whatever, but the BLM slogan as used creates a lie.
How about we don’t Balkanize and just insist that cops start being trained to do a lot better. No slogan, just fucking say what we want our mayors to actually do. All BLM by itself serves to do anyway is enrich a handful of people and create confrontation in the streets.
What we’re doing is doing more harm than good. Be nice to find a new plan, but politics will do its normal thing and keep anything useful from happening.
Yup, as the lawyers say, "Inclusio unius exclusio alterius".
Now, that's probably not true all cases where people say "black lives matter", but you'd think there's no harm in eliminating the ambiguity.
Whereas "All lives matter" is explicit about it.
Still no argument?
I'm not going to look up Tibet Keith, but it really takes some weird logic to take offense at what ought to be a noncontroversial assertion of human rights.
I genuinely didn't get the reference, and anyway I haven't heard that song. And I don't like your analogies and consider them inapplicable. Other than that I agree with your remarks.
Oh ffs. Just because I might find it reasonable to be upset that someone "dilutes/diverts from the particularly aggrieved." in one situation doesn't mean that it's reasonable in every situation.
You don't get how analogies work. Just because you don't get upset when I shit in your bathroom doesn't mean that you shouldn't get upset when I shit in your living room. The burden is on the person offering the analogy to show that the situations are analogous.