The Volokh Conspiracy
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Second Amendment Roundup: Upholding Oregon's Magazine Ban
Plaintiffs’ experts are biased, but defendants’ are neutral.
On July 14, the U.S. District Court for Oregon issued a 122-page opinion, styled Oregon Firearms Federation v. Kotek Oregon Alliance for Gun Safety, upholding Oregon's ban on magazines holding over ten rounds. Its author is Judge Karin J. Immergut. While the reasoning in the opinion is similar to like decisions by some other district courts, what I found remarkable was the disparate treatment of the expert witnesses for the parties.
Because this is an arms ban case, the court should have applied the common-use test required by the Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller. But it didn't. The court rejected plaintiffs' claim that the Second Amendment protects firearms that are in common use and instead skipped to the next step set forth by the Supreme Court in Heller and in New York State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen, asking whether the magazine ban is "consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." Bruen resolved the historical issue in that case by direct reference to the historical sources, with no need for experts. Judge Immergut wrongly relied on expert testimony. See my prior post on that issue.
Judge Immergut found that plaintiffs' historical expert was biased, but that the defendants' experts were neutral. Plaintiffs' expert was Ashley Hlebinsky, former curator at the Cody Firearms Museum at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West and current Senior Fellow at the University of Wyoming College of Law's Firearms Research Center. Despite her hands-on knowledge of historical firearms and her M.A. in history, she "lacks background and training as a historian," has received awards from the Second Amendment Foundation, and "[p]erhaps most importantly … is married to" a man who derives his income from the firearms industry.
By contrast, "[d]efendants' experts come from neutral academic backgrounds and possess no economic interest in the sale of LCMs [large-capacity magazines]." "This Court finds the testimony of Defendants' neutral historical experts to be significantly more credible—and entitled to more weight—than that of Ms. Hlebinsky." To determine how "neutral" those experts are, I'll focus on Robert Spitzer, who has a Ph.D. in political science and is a professor emeritus at the State University of New York.
Dr. Spitzer has been retained in several post-Bruen challenges to testify in support of firearm restrictions. As to whether his testimony would be consistent with what Bruen requires, he reacted to the Bruen decision with an article entitled "How the Supreme Court rewrote history to justify its flawed gun decision" (June 23, 2022). There, he said that the Court's conclusion that little evidence existed of an early American practice of regulating public carry of firearms meant "not only deliberately overlooking, but also actually contradicting that historical record."
Among his many articles, in 2000 Spitzer wrote that "the Second Amendment pertains only to citizen service in a government-organized and regulated militia," a view emphatically rejected by the Supreme Court in Heller. His article decried that law reviews were publishing too many articles supporting the individual-rights view of the Amendment. (My name is mentioned no less than 34 times.) Spitzer's piece was published in a symposium issue of the Chicago-Kent Law Review featuring only authors with the collective-rights viewpoint, including none other than the academic fraudster Michael Bellesiles. The issue was financed by the Joyce Foundation. The editor was paid $30,000 and each author got $5,000. Several comments about the limitation of the authors to one side of the debate and the failure to disclose that a partisan group financed the symposium were posted on the Volokh Conspiracy. See Randy Barnett's post referencing David Hardy's article.
There is an expert-witness industry that supports gun control, and it seems naive to believe that its members are "neutral." And for actual knowledge about historical arms, a former curator at an arms museum is going to know far more than a political scientist from a university.
Judge Immergut also disparaged the testimony of Massad Ayoob, a nationally-renowned expert on the use of firearms in self-defense, because he had only anecdotal evidence of the use of firearms with magazines holding over ten rounds being fired in self-defense. He served for nineteen years as the chair of the Firearms Deadly Force Training Committee for the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, and he has served as president of the Second Amendment Foundation since 2020. Would a media expert lack credibility based on membership in the Institute for Free Speech?
Now to Judge Immergut's decision on the merits. Although giving little weight to the estimate by the National Shooting Sports Foundation of 160 million magazines with a capacity of eleven or more rounds, the court concedes that "millions of Americans today own LCMs." But that's because, she says, manufacturers and dealers "limit consumer choice and magnify the commonality of LCMs" by making them available, thus "allowing the firearms industry to control the bounds of the Second Amendment."
You don't have to be Milton Friedman to understand that supply reflects demand. Since the court recognizes that ten-round magazines are available for many semiautomatic firearms, why don't consumers buy them, unless coerced into doing so by a ban?
To the court, neither Heller nor Bruen clarified what "in common use" means. Because "an individual's subjective intent in purchasing a firearm or firearm accessory for self-defense" doesn't count for much, an "objective standard" must be set by the court, according to the opinion. (That "standard" was set by the Supreme Court in Caeteno v. Massachusetts when it held that 200,000 stun guns were in common use.) The district court says that ordinary citizens don't need magazines that hold more than ten rounds. Since "ordinary civilians in self-defense situations rarely fire more than ten rounds," they are not "commonly used … for self-defense."
But that incomplete quotation distorts Bruen, which found that the historical record does not show a tradition of "prohibiting the public carry of commonly used firearms for self-defense." Elsewhere Bruen referred simply to "the right to bear commonly used arms." And Heller referred to the right to have arms in common use "for lawful purposes like self-defense."
The court focuses on mass shootings, defined (contrary to the most accepted definition) as involving four or more people shot, as opposed to killed. Far more persons are killed in non-mass shootings like those that occur daily in the streets of Chicago. Apparently to skew the numbers, the court excluded from her definition of a mass shooting "large inner [sic] group violence, including things like race riots, labor riots, and battle skirmishes." The court found that there were no mass shootings in American history that resulted in double digit fatalities from 1776 until 1947. Inexplicably, tragedies like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921 don't count.
But why not start at the beginning of the English settlement in the New World, and consider that reasons for the adoption of the Second Amendment included the need for protection from any source of danger? In 1622, Powhatan warriors massacred 347 men, women, and children at the Jamestown colony. You can read the grisly detains in Captain John Smith's account. Thereafter, all settlers were required to go armed.
And if a mass shooting justifies a gun ban, how is it that Heller was decided a year after the Virginia Tech massacre, in which the perpetrator used two handguns?
Also, why limit the analysis to firearms, when the right to bear "arms" is the issue? The court makes much ado about the fact that at the Founding, most firearms were single shots. (Never mind that Heller said that the Second Amendment protects modern arms, just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications.) In a sense, knives were the equivalent to today's magazines, as they "were 'exceedingly deadly,' and could be used by individuals as many times as they were so inclined." Thus, "a Bowie knife … was likely a useful device for self-defense in the nineteenth century, particularly compared to other available options." But that's why no state banned mere possession of Bowie knives, and only some restricted concealed carry.
So how is a restriction on concealed carry of knives a historical analogue for a ban on mere possession of standard magazines? Dr. Spitzer testified that in the 19th century, "governments generally did not have the mechanisms, the ability, the capability to simply ban a knife outright, especially in light of the fact that a knife is a very simple thing technologically." The court agreed that "it must consider the political realities of an era when evaluating whether a law is sufficiently analogous to a modern-day regulation," and found Spitzer's testimony "persuasive."
This seems to imply that, had the 19th century states been able to ban possession of Bowie knives, they would have. Ergo, an imaginary ban that never became law is a historical analogue for today's ban. Such reasoning is not historical analysis, but fantasy.
Using terminology from Bruen, the court tried to justify the ban based on a supposed "unprecedented societal concern" and what it considered to be a "dramatic technological change." Mass shootings with LCMs purportedly constitute an "unprecedented societal concern," but the court doesn't compare the numbers with non-mass shootings. According to the Pew Research Center, in 2021, out of 20,958 gun-related murders, only 103 were victims in what the FBI calls "active shooter incidents," i.e., mass shootings
The court also concluded that magazines holding over ten rounds represent a "dramatic technological change." But not since 2008, when Heller was decided. Indeed, the court recognized: "In the 1860s, the Henry and Winchester rifles, which were lever-action firearms, became the first large-capacity repeating firearms to enjoy limited commercial success in the United States." In fact, Winchester repeating rifles, many holding fifteen or more rounds, enjoyed enormous commercial success, selling millions over the past 150 years.
As semiautomatic firearms with detachable magazines became widespread in the early 20th century, the court found that laws restricting those that held over a certain number of rounds became "common" – but only six states and D.C., out of 48 states, passed such laws, and they were all repealed. At any rate, firearms and magazines that have been around for a century and a half hardly constitute a "dramatic technological change."
The court concluded that the banned magazines are not commonly used for self-defense, but even if they are protected by the Second Amendment, the ban is "consistent with this Nation's history and tradition of regulating uniquely dangerous features of weapons and firearms to protect public safety." That final phrase sounds like means-ends scrutiny that Bruen condemned.
The plaintiffs have appealed the decision to the Ninth Circuit, but it is unclear when that court might act on any Second Amendment cases. After Bruen, instead of deciding any cases that could have been decided as a matter of law, it remanded those cases back to the district courts.
Meanwhile, in Arnold v. Brown, issued in December 2022, Oregon's ban was preliminarily enjoined under that state's constitutional right of the people "to bear arms for the defense of themselves, and the state." In enjoining the ban, Judge Robert S. Raschio of the 24th Judicial District disagreed with some of the factual conclusions of Judge Immergut, who had issued an earlier opinion denying a preliminary injunction.
Judge Raschio noted that firearms with magazines holding over ten rounds existed when the Oregon Constitution was adopted in 1857, traced the several decisions of the Oregon Supreme Court upholding broad protections under its arms guarantee, and found that factually the evidence did not support the ban as having any effect on violence. The court found the declaration of Dr. Spitzer (yes, he's in that case too) not to be helpful.
The opinion includes this down-home flavor: "The evidence shows the distinction the defendants are trying to draw between firearms and magazines is a fiction. Firearms do not function without magazines. An analogy would be making a distinction between a car and its engine."
The Oregon Supreme Court denied a stay of the preliminary injunction. That court will ultimately decide the fate of the magazine ban under the state constitution.
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“the Second Amendment pertains only to citizen service in a government-organized and regulated militia,”
Bullshit.
The key point of the militia at the founding was that they had to be ‘called out’; and they could refuse the call. They offered their service to the government, they could not be compelled. They elected their own officers (or accepted the guy paying the bills) and fought under agreed circumstances, either in a specific area, or for a set time, or even just for one battle.
This was by specific design to restrict the government power to compel military service beyond a small army.
It was the original “suppose they gave a war and no one came”.
The question is not whether one can refuse militia service. The question is whether the state can make keeping and bearing arms for personal purposes contingent on accepting service. And I disagree with the Supreme Court’s disconnection of the two.
While such a militia would in general open to all law law-abiding adults, a state should be able to impose reasonable training and service requirements, e.g. a week or two basic training and a weekend or two a year afterwards, pass marksmanship and safety tests, etc. . And I think it ought to be able to make the right to keep and bear arms conditional on agreeing to serve. States no longer have citizen militias of this type. But I think they ought to be able to if they wanted to, just as state legislatures can still decide to select presidential electors themselves if they want to, even though no state currently does or has for some time.
Clarifying militia membership would need to be open to “the people” and militia regulations have to be reasonable. A state couldn’t make its militia an exclusive club or have “militia regulations” that have no reasonable connection to regulating a militia.
“the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.
…and it only applies to citizens in DC and federal territories.
Lol. Just ignore incorporation via the 14th Amendment. I defy you to make an argument against incorporation of 2A that wouldn’t also apply to 1A, 4A, 5A, 6A, etc. etc.
Is that Sam? I quit replying to him after I muted him.
Same nonsensical thing over and over again.
Where does it say states can infringe it??
As has been explained to you many times, no. It was originally a constraint only on the federal government but it constrained the feds in all states and territories.
I notice you decided to just ignore “a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,”
Just pretend it wasn’t there.
Very convenient.
ReaderY 20 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
I notice you decided to just ignore “a well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,”
ReaderY
I likewise noted that you decided to ignore the well documented historical writing of the era whereby the people had the right to keep and bear arms for the common defence (the right to form militia for the common defence) and the right to keep and bear arms for self defence (the individual right to keep and bear arms)
Those are the two separate and distinct rights protected by the second amendment. There is no language in 2A or in any contemporary writing of the era suggesting that the right to keep and bear arms was limited to when serving in the militia.
No its definitely there, that’s the part that explains why we can own “weapons of war”.
But as the Miller court explained in ’39 the clause was there only to reference Congress’ power under the Article 1 militia clause, not to grant any other power or restrict any rights.
Why don’t you tell me what powers you imagine the “well regulated” clause grants that Article 1 doesn’t already grant in more detail. It doesn’t, so it has no purpose other than to state a federal interest in ensuring the peoples right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, otherwise it would be a purely state and local concern.
Nobody is ignoring it. You are misrepresenting it’s context.
Because the right to self defense is fundamental and pre-exists the state, so does the right of the people to act collectively, as the militia. The militia cannot exist if individual citizens are disarmed.
This clause presumes individuals capable of arming themselves, thought it does not preclude the state providing the arms. The latter is what the “well-regulated” refers to. When the state choses to go that route. The state CANNOT abolish the militia–well-regulate it out of existence, because it is not a creation of the state. It’s the right of the people. Both individually and collectively.
Yes, you don’t like what the Second Amendment says. That doesn’t mean the Supreme Court is who disconnected the right to keep and bear arms from active service in a militia.
It sure wasn’t the 2nd Amendment’s text. Not so much as a period disconnects the right to keep and bear arms from a well-regulated militia.
Chalk one up in the grammatically ignorant “A well regulated Militia shall not be infringed” nutcase camp.
A well regulated Militia, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
I know what it says. You know what it says. ReaderY is arguing that the clauses between the commas have no effect, even though that makes them grammatically incoherent rather than just surplusage.
concur – the phrase ” being necessary to the security of a free State,” explains the purpose of the first right in 2A. It does not explain the second right in 2A, nor does it limit the second right to only when serving in the militia.
It was actually critical to the aim of the 2nd amendment that it NOT be limited to only during service in a militia, because then you could have extinguished the right by not having a militia, or just having a ‘select’ militia, no different from a standing army.
The point was to ensure an armed populace from which a militia could be expediently raised in an emergency, and to ensure that even in the face of a government that didn’t WANT a militia system. To the end it absolutely had to not be limited to militia members.
Brett – we agree on most topics, though slight difference on 2A, Based on the historical writings, The most natural reading of 2A and the historical writings of the ERA was that 2A protected two separate and distinct rights . This is consistent with the historical writings of the time for the “common defence” and “self defence”. Granted the “common defence” was mentioned in the historical writings much more frequently. Also note the widespread British attempt to confiscate guns 1791-1794. Hard to reconcile limiting the individual right to keep and bears arms after the british confiscation of guns jus 15-18 year earlier.
A well regulated militia necessary for a free state (society) shall not be infringed, The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The final variation of the 2A became “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
It did not become “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms when serving in a militia, shall not be infringed.” Which is what Steven’s proposed as an amendment to 2A.
The final point which we agree is that there is absolutely zero historical writings limiting the right to keep and bear to only when serving in the militia. The absence of any such discussion strongly implies that there was no intention to limit the right.
let me add one point
You cant draw inferences from writings and discussions that did not happen. The pro militia only camp argues that you cant draw an inference that there is no limitation on the right to keep and bear arms because there were no discussions or writings to that effect.
Yet the pro militia only camp is drawing inferences that there is a limitation when there were no discussions or writings suggesting a limitation (at least no known documentation of such)
My position would be that the amendment protects a right to keep and bear arms, period, apart from the uses you might put the arms to. So, being entitled to own and carry them, you can use them for any lawful purpose. That self defense would be such a purpose would be in the nature of a 9th amendment unenumerated right, rather than a 2nd amendment right.
The militia reference establishes the reason for the right, without limiting it, and clarifies if anybody had any doubts that it is a right to, as Tench Cox put it, “every terrible implement of the soldier”, NOT “every unfrightening implement of the sportsman”.
Of course, having constitutionally guaranteed a right to weapons of war, banning any lesser arms would be hard to get past even honest rational basis review.
Brett – We are in complete agreement that 2A protects the individual right.
Appears our difference is the purpose of the militia clause. One argument is that it describes one of the purposes of the individual right (not the sole purpose ). That is the position that most individuals take and the position that Scalia took in Heller. The pro militia only camp take the position that the militia clause limited it as the only purpose of 2A.
My position is that 2A protected two separate and distinct rights – the right to form militia’s for the common defence and the right to keep and bear arms for self defence. Scalia in my opinion did not address the right to form militia since that right was not before the court.
That’s what the Black Panthers were and Reagan outlawed open carry to thwart them.
Tom, but you understand the BoR did not initially apply to the states?? And so the states could infringe the RKBA…and so you must believe the 2A was drafted specifically for citizens in DC and federal territories.
but you understand the BoR did not initially apply to the states?? And so the states could infringe the RKBA…and so you must believe the 2A was drafted specifically for citizens in DC and federal territories
We don’t know that. That conclusion is based on a John Marshall decision more than 40 years after the 2nd Amendment was adopted. Moreover his decision purports to be textualist :
“[the BOR] amendments contain no expression indicating an intention to apply them to the State governments. This court cannot so apply them.”
But you could equally say that they contain no expression indicating an intention to limit them to the federal government, except where expressly stated. And you could go on to say that declining to consider the different texts of each of the Amendments, shows a rather casual approach to text.
Since the 1st Amendment expressly limits itself to Congress, and the 2nd Amendment contains no such limitation, it’s more convincing to read that distinction as significant rather than the opposite.
Moreover that famous preface about the Militia argues in favor of the 2nd Amendment being a general restriction on infringing the right to keep and bear arms. If the people’s right to keep and bear arms, is so important that the feds must not be allowed to infringe it, so as to help preserve the security of free states, it’s not easy to see why it wouldn’t be equally important to forbid state actors from infringing it.
Indeed you could read it as a restriction of even wider application that to the feds and the states. You could read it as applying to anyone minded to restrict the people keeping and bearing arms. eg employers, shopping malls etc.
Not even a little bit?
ReaderY,
You never carry your hypothetical all the way out
Your premise ends up with the founders BARRING Federal Govt from taking away the guns of the only ‘army’ they knew. The Militia. Your 2cnd amendment, prevents the govt from taking guns away from the Army.
The new Nation did not have a standing Army. ONLY MILITIA
By this logic the Biden administration isn’t infringing on the firstxamendment with their censorship campaigns, merely ensuring proper arguments are made by people well qualified to make them. Gotta love when the gun grabbers run up their own asses.
No one in 1790 had 30 round magazines for their Brown Bess muskets. Isn’t that supposed to be dispositive?
The Girardoni Air Rifle was invented in 1779 and was known to the founders. It had a 20 round magazine and was capable of firing 30 rounds before it’s air reservoir needed to be recharged. It fired a 13 gram .51 caliber bullet at over 500 ft/s. It was powerful enough that the Lewis and Clark expedition, which had one with them, was able to use it to kill elk.
There were various other repeating firearms at the time that were also known to the founders, including harmonica guns, puckle guns, and other early revolvers.
They didn’t have computers, either. Should that be dispositive about whether we have First Amendment rights online?
So you agree, the History & Tradition standard isn’t workable. Great! Let’s overturn Bruen and Heller and return to textualist Miller.
No, I only agree that technological changes do not mean we scrap the Constitution.
And Miller was no more textualist than Dred Scott was. The aspect of Miller that you would “return to” — the idea that the Second Amendment protects arms that are militarily useful — has been a dead letter for decades, and Miller was always designed as a dishonest case to push gun control. And still it would reject this Oregon law as unconstitutional, so the court would still be wrong in this case.
You may not be able to help being an abject moron, but you can at least try to not be such a dick about it.
Then you must despise Heller, since it concluded exactly that.
I think you think “textualist” means anything that you agree with. Let’s do a test. Do you think Heller and/or Bruen are textualist opinions?
But I haven’t even called you a moron or a dick yet.
You are not worth spending any more time on. Even your attempts to troll people are pathetically stupid.
I see you decided that answering my questions was too dangerous to your psyche.
You only had one question, and it was an incoherent attempt to distract from the actual topic. Learn how to count to one, dude.
Randal, your point about history and tradition is well taken. So how about we just move to the strict scrutiny test that applies to every other fundamental right? Somehow I don’t feel like that would result in the outcomes you want.
Strict scrutiny would be great, because without Heller we’d be back to Miller. Miller acknowledges that militia preparedness is the purpose of the right, not armed self-defense. That means people absolutely get assault rifles, but they don’t get to carry them all over town. Recentering the right around military preparedness would allow for lots of common-sense gun safety, like Heller’s “Please don’t store your loaded AK-47 in your sleeping baby’s crib. Instead keep it out of reach and unloaded.” Much the same way that we can have speech restrictions like defamation as long as they’re compelling and don’t interfere with the core purpose of the right.
In response to Randal: I would be in favor of restrictions on the Second Amendment as you suggest when you compare to defamation in regards to the First Amendment. By that logic I can own any firearm, magazine, suppressor, etc. with no registration, no background checks, no waiting periods, no fees, no government interference of any kind. Hell, I could order guns online and have them sent straight to my house or even buy them in another state and take possession right there. Because all of the restrictions we have on speech that are applicable to the general public are penalties for misusing speech after the fact. I’m all in favor of applying that standard to guns. Are you?
On the other hand, sweet Bess was .75 to .80 caliber.
Try to take a firearm of that power into say, California today.
Well, you’re wrong on your facts. As Morbo points out, the equivalent of 30 round magazines did exist and were well known to the authors of the Bill of Rights.
But no, even if that were true it wouldn’t be dispositive. The government still has to point to an analogous governmental restriction, not to the mere lack of a technology.
Its time the pro 2nd Amendment litigants force the issue that the 2nd Amendment is not just about arms for self defense against criminals, but has a coexisting martial component. Call it the Miller standard: is the arm at issue useful in the context of citizen service in a militia, useful (and actually used) in providing for the “security of a free State”?
Since 20+ round magazine are standard issue in small arms issued to Army soldier recruits, National Guard and the police, their martial usefulness is a given, and thus protected by the 2A. Its stupid to litigate solely about weapons suitable for use repelling an attack in a bodega.
1. While historians may not be experts on past positive law (statutes, cases, etc.) they would appear to be experts on past historical practice.
2. It seems rather odd to extrapolate a decision that didn’t use experts in the particular case to conclude that experts are forbidden in general.
3. Judges make credibility decisions based on actual and potential biases all the time.
It seems odd to respond to a comment without engaging with anything it said. For example, did any of the experts in this case testify about the utility of “large capacity” magazines in militia or military service? Or did experts address whether the law made exemptions for law enforcement or military service members?
Benitez in the 9th circuit made the point there is no better firearm available for civilian use now than the ar-15. It uses a standardized military cartridge, it uses standard interchangeable parts for repair and upgrade, it’s is easy to train on and to shoot from 17 year old girls to 70 year old men. Plus it’s quite functional as a civilian self defense weapon.
However I myself prefer a lever action.357 and a .357 revolver. When I make a hole in something, I want to be able to see it.
Ugh, terrorist-boy, you are such a sadcase.
But anyway you and Grifhunter are of course correct. We need to jettison Bruen and Heller, return to Miller, put the emphasis back on military readiness as opposed to self-defense, and then notice that individual ownership of AR-15s (with decently-sized magazines) is what’s at the core of the Second Amendment.
What, that’s a perfectly valid observation. Took my wife to the shooting range earlier this year, she wanted to try out shooting, but she’s such a little thing we started with the .22.
With my post cataract surgery vision, I couldn’t see the little holes in the target at any respectable range!
That’s a real problem, because I can’t see the sights without reading glasses, and can’t see the target WITH reading glasses, so it’s either a laser sight or point shooting for me, and you can’t practice point shooting if you can’t see the holes.
I literally need holes big enough that I can see them….
“Shoot-n-see” targets have a fluorescent layer under the black target so that tiny holes are brightly-rimmed, which is about the only way I can see 5.56 holes at distance.
Oh, I know, but my vision isn’t that great, and the .22s weren’t making marks visible to me even with that sort of target. Not at enough of a distance to be challenging, anyway.
So, terrorist-boy, do you have bad vision? Or is there some other, more deep-seated issue going on?
Nah, just bad vision. Chemo side effects, for a while there they thought I might end up blind, but thankfully the various eye diseases stopped progressing within a year of the chemo being done.
Cataracts, fractured vitreous humor, floaters up the wazoo, and epiretinal membrane. A few retinal holes, but none in the macula, thankfully.
Imagine you were looking at the world through a glass of dilute sewage with ice cubes tumbling around in it, using a camera that had a bad case of the jaggies and a fair number of pixels out. That’s my vision. Oh, well, beats being dead, so on the whole the chemo was worth it.
I like cantaloupes myself, get that Zapruder Frame 313 effect.
I used to like pieces of post left over from building my deck, until I shot one once with a tracer, and saw the bullet hit a knot and emerge at a 90 degree angle, instead of going into the backstop…
…or watermelons as in Day of the Jackal (the original 1973 version with Edward Fox).
I found myself adding laser grips to most of my carry guns a couple of years ago, when both the front sight and target were too fuzzy for the accuracy I wanted.
That well recognized little red (or green) dot has the added value of giving a miscreant a split second or so to reconsider their life choices.
And if you have cats in the house you might not even have to pull the trigger!
Yeah, been thinking I should get laser sights, my vision isn’t exactly getting better as the years go by.
I added them to my 2 primary carry guns. My EDC and “Going to downtown Chicago gun” a Kimber Ultra Carry in .45 ACP and my “dog walking gun” (Coyotes in the area) a little Beretta Tomcat in .32 ACP. The Crimson Trace “Batteries for Life” deal is pretty sweet.
Yeah, that’s why I had to give up umpiring little.league, I could call balls or.strikes or even outs on the bases without my glasses, but couldn’t see.the clicker to track the count without my glasses on.
That sounds like something a disaffected, immature, antisocial piece of culture war roadkill — the kind of kook who would hole up in a Ted Kaczyinski-style cabin in our can’t-keep-up backwaters — would say.
Carry on, clingers. But only so far as better Americans permit — especially in the context of gun nuts.
Does the Secret Service use high-capacity magazines?
They use normal capacity magazines. Usually 17, 19, 20, or 30 rounds depending on firearm.
So why would the state of Oregon consider a magazine with more than 10 rounds high-capacity, if the Secret Service considers 17 rounds as normal capacity?
Because they’re deliberately trying to keep people from having normal capacity magazines, duh.
Because, according to Oregon, only having 10 rounds means that one’s ability to inflict mass casualties is reduced. If you can only fire 10 rounds rather than 30, you limit the number of casualties. Never mind that: 1) a well-trained shooter can put in a full new magazine in less than 3 seconds and 2) if you’re hellbent on committing mass murder, you probably don’t care too much about magazine limit laws.
See Virginia Tech for a prime example of reloading for mass murder. 10 round magazines did nothing to stop that killer.
Maybe not, then the gun grabbers will demand limits on how many magazines you can have.
The same as if they ever succeed in banning AR15s again, those “Deadly Scoped Sniper Rifles” like the 30-30 Marlin 336 or Winchester ’94 will be next on the list.
And as always, remember that the M-1 Garand is NOT an assault rifle.
(a great surprise to many a German or Japanese soldier)
“Apparently to skew the numbers, the court excluded from her definition of a mass shooting “large inner [sic] group violence, including things like race riots, labor riots, and battle skirmishes.” The court found that there were no mass shootings in American history that resulted in double digit fatalities from 1776 until 1947. Inexplicably, tragedies like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921 don’t count.”
Is this really so inexplicable? If the concern is whether large magazines increase the ability of one or a few shooters to kill many people, it seems plausible that including large intergroup conflicts in the analysis would just muddy the waters. If so, their exclusion may reflect not an intent to “skew the numbers” but simply a desire to focus on signal over noise.
And it *is* pretty interesting that with this restriction, there were no double-digit-fatality shootings in the U.S. from 1776 to 1947. What do you think explains this? Or do you think it factually incorrect?
It’s before drug use became common, and insane asylums became uncommon.
Alcohol is a drug…and opium is one of the oldest drugs.
The body count is irrelevant. A published libel in 1799 may have been read by on 10,000 people, while today, the modern news technology allows 10,000,000 to hear the libel within hours. We don’t restrict the 1st Amendment due to technological evolution.
If you’re concerned about firearm homicides, “mass shootings” are the noise.
Correct
https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/how-the-gun-control-debate-ignores-black-lives/80445/
Those are contentious counts. https://time.com/4965022/deadliest-mass-shooting-us-history/ cites 67 killed in mass shootings in 2012 (more than any earlier year), doesn’t count thousands of other homicides, and requires, without apparent support, that effectively all homicides of Black men that year were with guns (the FBI’s UCR for 2012 says 5538 Black men were killed regardless of weapon, and 70% of all homicides were by gun).
The cited Tulsa race massacre included 12 fatalities in the first night’s extended shootout. Did this court not know about it, or exclude it for some reason?
At least 22 people died on Bloody Monday, August 6, 1855, in Louisville KY — although some were burned to death after being shot, rather than being shot to death. Uncounted hundreds died in the Opelousas massacre in 1868 Louisiana — while that was spread over some time, shouldn’t the sheer volume count for historical purposes? Dozens died when a racist mob stormed the courthouse in Colfax Louisiana in 1873. Eleven people died, and eleven more were wounded, in a courtroom shootout during a murder trial in the Goingsnake District of the Cherokee Nation in 1872. There were a number of other double-digit massacres in 19th Century America, mostly conducted with firearms, even if we exclude those committed by soldiers.
There were either massive historical oversights in that statement, or massive unstated limits on which mass killings were eligible for the count.
The Court was being dishonest.
…is the right answer.
Stephen, expert witnesses aren’t there to opine on matters of law. It doesn’t matter if they agree with prior Supreme Court decisions. In fact, it would be a problematic sort of loyalty test to require them to.
Imagine if for the last 50 years, only people who agreed with Roe were permitted to be credible expert witnesses.
Bingo, Scalia Doctrine says you push back on wrongly decided decisions like Roe and Heller.
Being compensated to spout an interpretive claim that was rejected by the Supreme Court suggests partiality and bias, not neutrality.
Explain that to me. How does disagreeing with the Supreme Court on a non-legal issue suggest bias any more than agreeing with the Supreme Court would?
Please be clear. Is your claim that the grammar and plain English meaning of the Second Amendment is a legal issue (which you said expert witnesses are not supposed to opine about) or not?
If it is not a legal issue — and thus within the domain of what an expert witness should testify about — then the “expert” was wrong about the facts, and is unreliable for that reason.
Regardless of whether this is a legal issue, then this expert’s remunerated position suggests bias for the same reasons that this court discounted testimony from the plaintiff’s expert witnesses.
The expert is an expert in history.
I see you’ve got your thesaurus out today. All expert witnesses are remunerated.
So let me read that back to you and you can correct me if I misinterpreted something.
The expert is automatically biased since they’re supporting the side that you oppose. And plus, anyone who’s getting paid is inherently compromised.
Is that about right? Not really much to engage with in there.
I see you decided that answering my question was too dangerous to your position.
As I said, this is the same kind of factor that led the court to discount the plaintiff’s expert witnesses. This is more relevant to the witness’s credibility because this witness was paid to push an incorrect theory that closely relates to this case.
No, the court found the plaintiff’s expert lacked credibility because she had a direct financial interest in the outcome of the case and wasn’t even a historian despite claiming to be a history expert.
Obviously you hire expert witnesses who support your position. Every expert witness is biased in that way. But ideally your expert witness is actually an expert and not blatantly conflicted.
…and yet the NYT and Nicole Hannah-Jones are accepted as “historians” for the non-history 1619 project.
Is Victor Davis Hanson a historian or a farmer?
Credibility of historical expert witnesses – Let go to Lanthrop’s version of historical experts/ professional historians used by Stevens in his Heller dissent where Stevens pretended there was no historical writings discussing the right to keep and bear arms for self defense.
I think we can all agree with that. The History & Tradition test is unworkable. All these competing expert witnesses is exhibit B (exhibit A being all the competing Supreme Court opinions you’re talking about).
I think it is abundantly clear that we do NOT all agree that it’s unworkable.
Gun control isn’t normal law, it’s a moral crusade. Judges who’ve signed onto the crusade don’t care if they’re not upholding Supreme court precedent, the crusade is too important to be limited by ordinary legal processes.
This is why the Court, if they’re serious about upholding the 2nd amendment, is going to have to stop letting those judges game the system. They’re going to have to start accepting expedited appeals, and delivering real smackdowns.
Right. The judge and supporters of this aren’t being naive, they’re being intentionally, willfully dishonest.
…and suffer no repercussions in doing so.
So, what exactly can the Supreme court do, if they’re serious about quashing this rebellion in the lower courts? Because that’s what it is, Reinhardtism (“They can’t catch ’em all,”) is spreading, and as it becomes more popular, it’s not going to be limited to one topic.
This is one of the aspects of the left’s drive to delegitimize the Court: Part of it is aimed at getting lower courts to ignore Supreme court precedents hostile to the left, and ultimately spam the court with more appeals than it has time to reverse. So the Court really does have to do something if they don’t mean to be rendered largely irrelevant.
I’m actually curious about this: IS there any mechanism for the Court to rein in lower court judges who just up and decide to start ignoring Supreme court precedents? I don’t recall Reinhardt being sanctioned in any way, and he was quite open about what he was doing.
I know there are procedures for dealing with judicial misconduct and incapacity, but can the Court initiate such proceedings on the basis of a lower court judge ignoring higher court precedent?
It is a flaw in the constitutional structure that the Supreme Court has no recourse to rein in lower court judges.
Judges in lower courts could have simply all but said, “Fuck Brown” during the 1950s and 1960s, and the Supreme Court would have been completely powerless.
Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242, “Deprivation Of Rights Under Color Of Law” would seem applicable, but it requires the DOJ to initiate prosecution, and the DOJ is on the other side here.
But that would be a handy club if the White house changes hands next year.
Correct. To say that magazines larger than 10 rounds are not “commonly used for self defense” is patently dishonest, and this cunt judge knows it.
Bigoted, autistic, delusional right-wing gun nuts are among my favorite culture war casualties
Don’t you have a little boy to be penetrating?
Jerry Sandusky, not being kind or gentle.
NPC Alert.
Bad NPC. Bad
That’s also true regarding abortion and gay anal sex. Those are the three moral crusades for the left in 2023.
You clingers understand that the law professors who operate this blog reside at the disrespected, doomed fringe of modern legal academia, right? Surely you recognize that neither legal academia nor the American mainstream is going to become conservative so long as anyone alive today could still be around to observe it. You must know that the culture war is going to make losers of our vestigial gun nuts, anti-abortion absolutists, religious kooks, racists, superstition gay-bashers, half-educated immigrant-haters, etc., right?
Bruen resolved the historical issue in that case by direct reference to the historical sources, with no need for experts. Judge Immergut wrongly relied on expert testimony.
Both sentences above are insane.
Based on the OP, it may be that neither side presented expert historical witnesses, by the way. For the life of me I do not understand lawyers who go to court with second-rate or impeachable experts.
Of course, Bruen (also insane) was written to preclude expert historical testimony from every consideration of history and tradition. Bruen turns the entire notion of originalism into opportunity for a, “good for this ride only,” conclusory result based on a laughable misunderstanding of historical method. A misunderstanding which the decision then decreed legally sacrosanct.
It is hard to imagine any future justice will be able to take intellectual dishonesty any farther than Thomas did in Bruen.
While I don’t like the “history and tradition” test, they were were forced into it, because lower courts were finding that every gun law, no matter how stupid or irrational, was satisfying intermediate scrutiny. Even had SCOTUS required the use of strict scrutiny, these same judges would have found that too.
There isn’t any way the Court can actually phrase things to restrain judges to disagree and don’t care if they’re honestly applying the Court’s precedents. Because once you’ve decided to engage in bad faith, the words don’t matter.
Without sanctions of some sort, it’s all in vain.
I agree with that. Until there are summary reversals or impeachments, nothing will change.
I recognize that the Democrats in the Senate will never vote to convict, but it would send a message if the GOP House voted to impeach every judge who did something like this.
It is disturbing to think that Plessy v. Ferguson could have effectively been extended for more than a century, solely due to the actions of lower courts.
Brett once again jumping directly to bad faith. If that were true, nothing would help, not even sanctions, because a country full of bad-faith judges just isn’t going to work.
But they aren’t bad-faith judges. There simply has never been a workable standard.
The Court was silent after Miller, it wasn’t even trying. So I don’t think you can count that as bad-faith district courts, that was just SCOTUS abdication.
Then Heller brought the lite version of history & tradition to 2A jurisprudence, and when that proved unworkable, they double-down with Bruen.
It’s just even more unworkable. Start over from Miller and do a workable test. Judges aren’t acting in bad faith, they’re just hopelessly confused.
“Brett once again jumping directly to bad faith. If that were true, nothing would help, not even sanctions, because a country full of bad-faith judges just isn’t going to work.”
It’s not a country full of bad faith judges. You see quite often rulings since Bruen that apply it honestly. It’s not even a majority of bad faith judges. But there certainly are some about, there’s no freaking way this judge actually thought she was honestly applying Bruen to the case at hand.
“The Court was silent after Miller, it wasn’t even trying. So I don’t think you can count that as bad-faith district courts, that was just SCOTUS abdication.”
Certainly there was Supreme court abdication, nearly 70 years of it, but I don’t think it was just Supreme court abdication, there was a lot of judicial hostility to the right in question at work, too, or else Supreme court abdication after Miller wouldn’t have mattered. Along would have come a case with a live defendant with counsel ready to demonstrated what the government chose not to give the Miller Court judicial notice of, and bye bye NFA.
“Then Heller brought the lite version of history & tradition to 2A jurisprudence, and when that proved unworkable, they double-down with Bruen.”
Heller wasn’t particularly unworkable, so much as it was incomplete, and met with a lot of judicial resistance. It certainly didn’t guide the lower courts in every case, but such guidance as it did give got widely ignored.
“It’s just even more unworkable. Start over from Miller and do a workable test. Judges aren’t acting in bad faith, they’re just hopelessly confused.”
This judge is NOT confused. There’s not enough ambiguity in the world, let alone in Bruen, for her to have genuinely thought she was applying that ruling to the case at hand.
Well said.
That’s only true if you think the lesson from Bruen is to take a dishonest look at history and use it to concoct an ultra-conservative result in every case.
That would be the bad-faith tactic. But when you try, like this judge did, to take an honest look at history, it’s… unworkable. As we’ve been saying. She tried to apply the history in a good-faith way, and this is what she came up with. One of the hallmarks of an unworkable standard is wildly inconsistent opinions, even from good-faith judges.
Do a workable standard and that won’t happen.
What standard under the 2nd Amendment do you think is workable? Please explain.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/07/25/second-amendment-roundup-upholding-oregons-magazine-ban/?comments=true#comment-10170387
So you wouldn’t throw a fit and start pearl clutching if ordinary people could easily possess full-autos and suppressors?
That might be a little bit too far, but maybe, if it actually went along with military-style safety requirements like training, safe storage, and time / manner / place restrictions.
Ordinary people do possess them, AlGores Internets has actually helped with the ATF approval part, unfortunately the artificial freeze in the number of legal machine guns since 1986 has made them prohibitively expensive, but there are peoples who bought them in the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s when the prices were more reasonable (MAC 10’s were $450 in 1993, M16A1’s $2,500) and they’re cheaper (and in my opinion more fun) than a Cessna (how you gonna defend your home with a Cessna??)
I believe Supressors are still cheap as they can still be manufactured, just require the ATF Approval and $200 Tax Stamp (Big money in 1934)
Frank
Randal, even under Heller’s “in common use” standard, that magazine ban was a non-starter. That magazine size bans were unheard of until recently is a killer under Bruen,
The government went so far as to pretend that regulations of powder magazines, buildings where gun powder was stored, were relevant, they had so little basis for claiming the law wasn’t novel!
And like hell this was a good faith effort.
How long before they put forward the Barney Fife rule. One bullet which must be kept in the shirt pocket?
There was that one episode with the “Gold Shipment” passing through Mayberry where Barney grabbed a Thompson from the Armored Car, always wondered what happened to it.
What are you talking about? Bruen doesn’t care about recently, it only cares about long ago. And long ago, large magazines weren’t common, so the court has to look for a “historical analogue.”
I can’t think of any good historical analogues for modern large magazines, can you? I’m sure you think the default rule in that case should be that it can’t be regulated, but that’s just your biases talking. It doesn’t indicate bad faith on the part of the judge that she doesn’t adhere to your biases.
Yes, that should be the default rule. If there is no historical analogue, then it can’t be regulated. Otherwise, judges will just say “Well, history doesn’t really inform us, so I’ll just do what I feel like.”
And that’s just another reason why History & Tradition is unworkable. Otherwise, like, the right to keep and bear nuclear weapons cannot be infringed.
The 2nd Amendment by its text only covers “bearable” arms, so the idiotic nuclear bomb trope can be discredited easily.
Ok, rocket launchers.
“I’m sure you think the default rule in that case should be that it can’t be regulated,”
From Bruen: “Under Heller, when the Second Amendment’s plain text covers an individual’s conduct, the Constitution presumptively protects that conduct, and to justify a firearm regulation the government must demonstrate that the regulation is consistent with the Nation’s historical tradition of firearm regulation.”
Gun control laws are presumptively unconstitutional, but you can overcome that presumption by demonstrating that similar conduct was regulated in the founding era, thus showing that the conduct wasn’t considered to be within the scope of the right.
So, yes, actually, the default rule IS that it can’t be regulated.
NL here, so the question’s not rhetorical: Does “consistent with” actually require that the conduct at issue be “similar to” historically regulated conduct?
It seems for example that conduct similar to historically-regulated conduct in every dimension except lethality (such that many more people likely die when things go wrong) could be regulated “consistent with” tradition. Ditto for any other conduct which quite clearly raises costs and/or lowers benefits relative to conduct already regulated.
“Jumping directly to” implies he wasn’t already there. He starts there on every news story. It’s his default notion.
The article demonstrates the judge’s bad faith.
“Plaintiffs offered only limited anecdotal evidence of LCMs actually being used in selfdefense. Mr. Ayoob described an incident in which a law enforcement officer fired thirty-three rounds in pursuit of an armed bank robber. Tr. 5/30/2023 39:24–40:16. On cross-examination, Mr. Ayoob also testified about an incident in which two individuals fired nine and three rounds, respectively, at an armed intruder. Tr. 5/30/2023 56:16–57:14. On re-direct, Mr. Ayoob testified to two other incidents with civilians firing more than ten rounds in self-defense: two brothers who owned a jewelry store and fired between thirty and forty rounds to stop an attempted robbery, and one gun shop owner who used an M16-rifle and a sub-machine gun to stop an attempted robbery. Tr. 5/30/2023 95:15–96:13.”
This illustrates bad faith. She’s only considering it using a large magazine in self-defense if someone FIRES more than 10 rounds.
You think she should’ve included battle skirmishes as examples of personal self-defense? Give me a break.
No, what I think is that whether something is actually used for defense is not the right test. The test is whether an arm CAN be used for defense.
The reason it matters is because if it’s not actually needed for self-defense, then it does no harm to the (alleged) right to armed self-defense to restrict access to the thing.
The 2nd Amendment’s scope is not limited to arms that are NEEDED for self-defense, but which COULD be used for self-defense.
Heller says it is.
Certainly it’s not bad faith for the judge to apply Heller.
No, Heller does not limit the 2nd Amendment to “need.”
Ok, “necessary.”
Randal,
You seem to be suggesting the RKBA relates only to self-defense. Is that really your argument?
That is odd since most other gun grabbers insist the RKBA is only for service in the militia.
No, my argument is that it’s very rude to call this judge dishonest and operating in bad faith when she’s using the same line of reasoning that Heller used.
I happen to think Heller is Egregiously Wrong, but that’s a whole different discussion.
You’re engaging in a fundamental logical fallacy.
Heller said “that the city’s requirement that firearms in the home be kept nonfunctional even when necessary for self-defense, violated that right.”
Heller did NOT say that ONLY such a requirement could violate it!
They decided the case before them, not all potential cases.
What’s rude is for this ugly, wrinkled, washed up cunt to be violating the Constitutional rights of Americans.
It is bad faith to rely on an expert who flatly rejects SCOTUS teaching on the subject in question.
And it is not the same line of reasoning the majority used in Heller as Heller did not say that self-defense was the only use of arms protected by the second amendment. Acting as though they did is a form of the false dichotomy fallacy.
Brett, it’s still bad-faith of you to be saying that it’s bad-faith of her to think that the applicability of large magazines to self-defense is at least relevant, given that that’s what Heller was all about. Why would Heller have gone on and on about it if it was just totally meaningless anyway?
You need to get your mind to a place where you’re able to disagree with someone without thinking they’re dishonestly out to get you.
Bullshit. For 50 years conservatives relied on medical experts who flatly rejected SCOTUS teaching on the subject in question. When SCOTUS ventures beyond the law, whether it’s into medicine or history, it’s fair to criticize their mistakes.
If you’re referring to Roe, that’s BS and you know it. Abortion is a moral issue. There’s nothing an “expert” could say that is relevant one way or the other.
So you think all these people are operating in bad faith?
https://www.facebook.com/ProLifeOBGYNs/photos/a.10151999306175590/10159696203285590/?type=3
When you have the 9th Circuit finding that every single gun control law they have looked at en banc is constitutional it isn’t hard to see the bad faith. That the hoplophobes think otherwise doesn’t change anything.
Maybe the Ninth Circuit came away from Bruen with the only intellectually honest take possible: Second Amendment jurisprudence is nothing but a game of justifying your preferred outcome with some random handwaving in the direction of history. In which case yeah, they’re going to find every gun control law constitutional by virtue of being “similar” to some ancient historical practice somewhere.
In other words, Bruen codified bad-faith judging.
All of their rulings upholding gun control laws were before Bruen. The only thing they’ve done after Bruen is to remand for further proceedings in light of Bruen. The bad faith was there long before Bruen.
As you may have deduced, I don’t know what you or I am talking about. But maybe they only felt the need to weigh in en banc on the ones that needed it? It’s hard to draw conclusions from en banc statistics since they’re not at all representative.
What’s your best example of a bad-faith Ninth Circuit en banc opinion? I’ll take a look and see if I agree.
Stephen Lathrop 9 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute Use “It is hard to imagine any future justice will be able to take intellectual dishonesty any farther than Thomas did in Bruen.”
lanthrop – Stevens already took dishonesty to the highest level when he claimed that the no historical writing or historical evidence during the founding era of the right to keep and bear arms for self defence.
Lanthrop – you claim to value professional historians – yet you worship the dishonesty of Stevens dissent in heller.
This case sounds about ripe for a visit to SCOTUSville.
This statement, coupled with recent revelations concerning yet another Federalist Society-Thomas family financial angle, precipitate an obvious question: How much of the Volokh Conspiracy’s content has been purchased or influenced by Federalist-Heritage-wingnut cash?
(The wingnuttery that may be wrecking Israel — or, at least, arranging a withdrawal of American support for Israel — seems to have a similar Volokh Conspiracy angle involving cash and political horsepower.)
Artie,
You’d be anti-gun rights and pro-Big Government no matter what, wouldn’t you? Do you really care about who is funding whom?
I believe the Constitution entitles one to possess a reasonable firearm for self-defense in the home.
I also am at least as libertarian as any of the Volokh Conspirators (excepting, likely, Prof. Somin). I just don’t prance around like a silly show horse in garish, unconvincing libertarian drag.
Other than that, though, great comment. The Volokh Conspirators and their libertarian drag stylists are especially grateful for your effort.
“I believe the Constitution entitles one to possess a reasonable firearm for self-defense in the home.”
And — presumably — if anyone ever sets foot outside their homes, they have the right to be preyed upon.
Do you believe that if anyone ever sets foot in a courtroom they have the right to be preyed upon?
What about anyone who boards a commercial aircraft?
Anyone who visits a bank?
Federal office building?
Prison (to visit insurrectionists locked in cells for years, for example)?
Military base?
Post office?
Your answers might indicate you are a faint-hearted, and dim-witted, gun nut.
This judge is a biased piece of shit. I hope she gets a tumor in her ovaries.
Not kind or gentle
Judge Immergut would have us believe that the right to keep and bear arms is limited to those people in actual militia service, but it protects their right to keep and bear only such weapons that are not suited for use in warfare.
Lever guns can be reloaded (topped off) without completely emptying their fixed magazines.
She probably believes she has a right to put on a strap on and do her beta husband in the rear.
These are the bigoted fans of your white, male, faux libertarian blog, Volokh Conspirators — and the reason most of your deans would pay to watch you depart campus for the final time.
Carry on, clingers . . . so far as tenure can protect conservatives from the consequences of bigotry and boorishness, anyway.
When New York required registration of “Assault Weapons” some 24,000 were registered https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-safe-act-weapons-registry-numbers-released-article-1.2267730
Authorities were surprised as they had expected several hundred thousand. Sure sounds like “Infringement” to me.
Frank “Walk softly but carry a Big gun”
Who cares about a magazine ban? There are always podcasts.