The Volokh Conspiracy
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My New Article on Legislative Restrictions on Classroom Speech
I am pleased to see that my latest article on the efforts of state legislatures to restrict what ideas professors can endorse in the classroom has now been published. "Professorial Speech, the First Amendment, and Legislative Restrictions on Classroom Discussions" appears in the latest issue of the Wake Forest Law Review.
From the abstract:
Academic freedom enjoys an uncertain status in American constitutional law under the First Amendment. It is particularly unclear how the First Amendment applies when it comes to professorial speech in the classroom. This lack of clarity has grave implications in the current political environment. There is now an unprecedented wave of legislative proposals aimed at curtailing teaching and discussing controversial topics relating to race and gender in state university classrooms, and the constitutionality of such measures will soon need to be resolved.
This Article sets out a new argument for protecting from legislative interference how faculty at state universities teach their courses. Building on existing First Amendment jurisprudence regarding academic freedom and government employee speech, the article lays out the constitutional infirmities with anti-Critical Race Theory proposals and clarifies the scope of an individual constitutional liberty in the context of professorial speech.
From the conclusion:
The Supreme Court has invited confusion by noting but not fleshing out an academic-freedom exception to ordinary government-employee speech doctrine. It is possible to flesh out that exception in a way that coheres with the Court's various doctrinal commitments, but it will require reaffirming that professorial speech is "a special concern of the First Amendment." When state government officials attempt to restrict what ideas can be taught in the classrooms of public universities, they do real damage not only to the intellectual life of those universities but also to the public discourse of the country. The First Amendment is grounded in the fundamental commitment to the view that ideas should be freely discussed and that they cannot be rejected or embraced as a result of government diktat. In the mid-twentieth century, the government sought to prevent the spread on college campuses of what it regarded as dangerous ideas by dismissing any professor who might adhere to them, discuss them, or teach them. The Court rejected the stifling hand of censorship then. The tools of censorship being wielded by the government today are different, but the ultimate goal is the same. Government officials do not want professors at state universities to discuss ideas with which those government officials, and perhaps even popular democratic majorities, disagree. The First Amendment bars them from having their way.
The argument developed in the article has relevance for legislation like Florida's Stop WOKE Act, the constitutionality of which is now before the 11th Circuit.
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Why would professorial speech be a special concern at public universities? The first amendment works the other way at private schools, rightly protecting the right of private institutions to reject what they see as poor scholarship and to find the degree of professorial autonomy that best serves the institution and its students.
There’s no reason that the employee speech doctrine shouldn’t allow public schools to operate the same way.
The decree of academic freedom allowed to professors is a policy choice that can be tested and altered based on outcomes. If professors have lots of freedom and end up doing a great job at educating students, great. But if academic freedom ends up with taxpayers having to pay professors to teach that the world is flat, then members of a free society can vote to put a stop to it, and there’s no reason that courts should stop them.
I haven't read the full article yet, but it doesn't seem like a great idea to me for academic freedom at public universities to be dependent on the good will of demagogic politicians and voter majorities. Do you think there should be any limit at all to what a state legislature could mandate regarding curricula at public universities?
But does it seem like a great idea for academic bomb throwers, in some case literal bomb throwers, to be entitled to teach beliefs the public thinks are odious at the public's expense?
I mean, private universities? Presumably anybody who finds THOSE to be teaching abhorrent notions can simply not give them money. But public universities, governmental universities, deny us that option.
Isn't it obscene to tax somebody to teach notions they object to?
"There is now an unprecedented wave of legislative proposals aimed at curtailing teaching and discussing controversial topics relating to race and gender in state university classrooms,:
Whittington seems to have a bit of trouble distinguishing between curtailing "teaching that," and "teaching about that"; The legislative proposals I've seen don't prohibit teaching about the controversial topics, they prohibit teaching particular positions regarding them.
Given the nature of those positions, it's easier to argue that that prohibition is mandated by the 14th amendment, than that it is forbidden by the 1st...
It's no more "obscene" than using public money to fund religious instruction - which is apparently constitutionally protected.
You've been huffing the glue too long, Brett. This is a rhetorical distinction the right-wing has been pounding to try to deflect criticism and confuse the public. But it's actually more constitutionally problematic, to frame the question this way.
Yes, I think I understand these arguments, but my question is are there any limits to it? Can legislatures mandate anything they want and punish anyone they want at public universities, for any reason? Seems problematic to me.
And I'm not really singling out any specific legislation occurring now, more a general principle kind of thing.
This is the argument against public education. It works the same way as the argument against any government program: I don't want my money going to X, whether that be some unjust war, the death penalty for innocent people, healthcare, welfare, whatever.
The question is whether, given that we have public education, we should allow the educators to decide what to teach, or the government.
I'm very surprised to see conservatives so quick to give that choice to the government. Let's just set up a direct propaganda pipeline for the government to use to indoctrinate the kids? Very surprising indeed.
"The question is whether, given that we have public education, we should allow the educators to decide what to teach, or the government."
Is this a true dichotomy? Public school teachers and public university professors are "the government," just as FBI agents and CDC employees are. Isn't the real question "who IN THE GOVERNMENT" gets to decide what gets taught -- the legislature, the school board, the university administration, individual teachers and professors, or someone else? I'm not suggesting what the "right" answer is because I genuinely don't know. But it is not a typical employment arrangement that grants employees the power (and the right) to decide what their duties should be and how they should perform them.
I believe the line to be within the institution vs. outside of it. The University of California should decide what happens educationally at the University of California.
For example, DeSantis's action to replace the board at New College doesn't cause the same sorts of problems as a law directly prescribing New College's educational program would.
That’s not an unreasonable line to draw, but it does suggest the response “Why there ?”
1. From a legal point of view, is there an argument that this line is a textually justified boundary under the 1st Amendment ?
2. And leaving law aside, is this a line that’s plausible for other government institutions. eg how about the Army ? Is it plausible that the President should limit himself to selecting the top generals, but should not be allowed to interfere on matters of deployments, training, policy as regards alphabet people and so on ? And Congress votes the cash and declares the wars but otherwise it’s role is to STFU ?
I suppose that line, or some other line drawn, like one between general government speech and professorial speech, has about the same textual justification as the line between speech in general and commercial speech.
Just so.
But Randal, when the (a) Normal Schools and then (b) the Land Grant (A&E) Colleges were established (U Cal is a Land Grant) the explicitly prescribed what they would teach.
it is not a typical employment arrangement that grants employees the power (and the right) to decide what their duties should be and how they should perform them.
Actually, a typical employment arrangement, certainly for professional employees, is to tell them what their duties are and leave them alone to perform them.
But always with the employer retaining the option to redirect the employee if the employer finds himself displeased with the employee’s performance of the duties.
Often by specifying those duties in more detail, either positively ( ie “do that”) or negatively (ie “don’t do that”.)
“ The question is whether, given that we have public education, we should allow the educators to decide what to teach, or the government.”
The educators are part on the government. The government decides no matter what. The question is whether the first amendment requires that a particular part of the government does the deciding.
And once again we have conservatives arguing against Fist Amendment rights.
Nope. Government employees don’t have a first amendment right to say whatever hey want in the course of their employment.
Funny
Public school the educators work for, follow the desires of the legislators....they follow the orders of the People, at election time.
Always The People decide.
Except the argument here is that the taxpayer shouldn't even get a vote.
Isn’t it obscene to tax somebody to teach notions they object to?
It is not remotely obscene.
If you regard it as such then I assume you consider all public education obscene, since some taxpayers are going to object to almost everything - science, accurate history, teaching female students math, foreign language, literature, etc,
There’s a large domain of consensus you don”t want to acknowledge. 2+2=4, for instance; Who thinks that proposition is obscene? The problems start when the teachers decide to teach outside the consensus. They get really big when teachers decide to teach against the consensus.
In a democracy, why should the voters be forced to pay to promote ideas the majority reject? I know you’d like to discuss this without addressing advocacy of WHAT propositions are being banned. But to he’ll with that!
Collective racial guilt. Racial supremacy. That's what is being banned.
It should be.
And there is a domain of consensus that is just wrong.
If Dunning school history, and a generally glorified view of the Confederacy, is popular someplace does that mean it should be taught? If the idea that the US is a "Christian Nation" is popular someplace, and it is, should that be taught, and those who challenge it be fired?
If your view of American race relations is popular, and it is, should those who question it be fired? Because all your talk about racial supremacy, etc. is just a cover for the fact that you prefer that no one challenge your opinions, because to do so "undermines our culture," or some BS.
You are really saying unpopular views shouldn't be discussed, which is pretty much the opposite of education.
"And there is a domain of consensus that is just wrong."
And if it is, in your opinion? So what?
You're arguing for an oligarchy composed of teachers, essentially. Teachers are entitled to say, "To hell with what the public wants, we're going to teach what WE want, and you WILL pay us to, even if you don't want to!"
Collective racial guilt. Racial supremacy. That’s what is being banned.
What it was pointed out that the statute that you loved to link to could be read as banning discussions of affirmative action...only on one side, not the other, you were into it.
You yourself have said speaking in favor of affirmative action is included in these awful racist things you want banned.
Right there is the issue. That's censorship pure as it gets.
You and your righteous authoritarian rationalization is why you need content neutral procedures, not targeted bans.
“Right there is the issue. That’s censorship pure as it gets.”
Huh? Putting people in jail for discussing affirmative action would be “censorship pure as it gets”.
Asking government employees not to talk about it when they’re being payed to talk about something else, that’s just being an employer.
Contrast this with the actual censorship we discussed the other day (the issue of the government preventing a student from wearing a shirt saying there are only two genders) and it’s clear that you only care about censorship when the government censors itself.
Yeah, I know you claim the fact that you could invent some totally off the wall meaning for a statute's clear language means that the courts have to rule on the basis of that invented meaning, instead of what the statute actually SAYS.
Screw that. These statutes ACTUALLY bar public school teachers from promoting the most obnoxious racial doctrines imaginable, and they do it clearly. That's why you don't want to talk about what they say, just what you're capable of pretending they do.
You have said you think affirmative action is racist. So under the statute how could it be debated?
Look at your comment. It isn’t content neutral, it draws lines specifically against viewpoints you don’t like. I know you really don’t like them, and are sure this will inky be used to ban the things you don’t like and not go further.
But that itself is policing speech. Directly. You are into it, making you a great example of why we need this freedom protected.
"But that itself is policing speech. Directly."
No more so than preventing public school teachers from teaching creationism, which iiuc you are into, Sarcastro.
WHATABOUTIST !
"So under the statute how could it be debated?"
Because the goddamn statute doesn't prohibit debating anything, that's why. Expressly, it does not.
You're aggressively ignoring the distinction between teaching "about" and teaching "that". You can teach ABOUT the Dred Scot ruling, you can't teach THAT it was right.
Yes, it's policing speech. It's policing job related speech of government employees, government speech. A teacher wants to join the Klan or BLM in their spare time, legal under the law. They want to show up in class in costume preaching racial supremacy, not fine.
You can't support one side. That's not a debate.
You’re aggressively ignoring the distinction between teaching “about” and teaching “that”.
What a bright line you have found that is surely not going to be an issue in offering sources on one side of an issue.
You hate one side of the debate. Under your censorious regime, you can teach AA is racist all you want, but not the opposite.
Think of that for a moment, and see how distorted that is. Nah, you're into that because you really hate that viewpoint.
Which is exactly censorship.
"You can’t support one side. That’s not a debate."
If students want to take the other side of the debate, they can. But if the government wants to take the position that, say, the idea that the natural condition of the black man is in permanent servitude to the white man is abhorrent and shouldn't be advocated by it's employees in it's schools, it is free to take that position.
If the professor wants to claim that black people should be slaves, he can stand on a soapbox in the park and say so.
No censorship whatsoever.
There’s no reason that the employee speech doctrine shouldn’t allow public schools to operate the same way.
What's the line that the gun enthusiasts always trot out, when we try to enact laws that might protect communities from random gun violence? Ah, yes: Except that it's expressly protected by the First Amendment.
Do gun rights folk say that the government can’t tell soldiers where on Army bases they can and can’t carry weapons ? I hadn’t noticed that.
That's so fucking stupid I don't know how to respond.
Are you President Biden???
“ Except that it’s expressly protected by the First Amendment.”
Academic freedom for public university professors is not expressly protected by the first amendment.
12 inch -- the issue is that everyone employed a public university is a state actor. What the author is missing is that the very same things that he would use to stop state legislators from interfering with speech also apply to everyone working there!
If the state can't dictate what students will learn, then faculty can't either...
Not everyone. The actual Profs wagging their lips would be OK.
And so would students.
Also, I haven’t heard a good response to whether an academic freedom exception would allow public school teachers to teach concepts like creationism if they believe in them.
If public school content is the teacher’s protected, private speech, then there’s no establishment clause problem.
Fully agree.
(Though, with regard to "public" colleges & universities, my solution would be more radical: shut down all such colleges & universities, and end all public funding of higher education.)
I wonder if these same people advocating for "academic freedom" would do so if the speaker was a conservative? We have of course seen many conservatives be shouted down with the tacit consent of university leaders. When both sides have academic freedom then I will listen to complaints from the left that they aren't being allowed to say by the people who pay their salaries.
Your argument works both ways. By taking away academic freedom, you're also taking it away from conservatives. We could pass laws forbidding the endorsement of capitalism, American exceptionalism, colorblindness, etc.
BUT WE WON'T....
The tenured radicals have taken over the academy, and now demand that we pay for it. I say "no mas"!
Dr. Ed 2 with the Roberto Duran reference!, (Golf Clap)
We are already seeing conservative speech suppressed at the university level. Conservative speakers are commonly shouted down with university leaders doing nothing about it and no consequences for those disrupting the speeches. We see things like the case of Dr. Allen Josephson who was demoted shortly after speaking before the Heritage Foundation, Gregory Manco at St Joseph University was suspended for opposing reperations , Professor Scott Gerber was suspended for not being " collegial" enough and Dr. Gregory Schultz was suspended for calling a hiring process"woke dysphoria."
And what percentage of university professors are conservative? Most recent number I could find was 12%. Tell me does that sound like there might be discrimination against conservatives at universities?
What we see is anecdotes being amplified without actual generalizeability.
Bad behavior to be punished, but the idea that it is happening everywhere is something the right wing media want you to believe. It never manage to really prove.
What is conservative in this context? Currently conservatism seems to equate with hatred and loathing of universities and a desire to crush their speech. Demanding academic freedom for people who want to destroy academic freedom is disingenuous - such views are never going to be popular in universities. Obviously.
Nige-Bot has discovered the word "Obviously" Uses it in a 1 word sentence. Edge Bot has discovered the word to describe Nige-Bot.
"Pathetic"
"Demanding academic freedom for people who want to destroy academic freedom is disingenuous – such views are never going to be popular in universities."
Not popular? Do you have a cite for that?
Couple of words after not popular you typed but I guess didn’t read.
Universities would never demand academic freedom for the foes of academic freedom! And they never will, so long as your planet has two suns.
But I was referring to *this* planet, not yours.
?
Saying yes please regulate my speech more is going to be unpopular in universities.
Do you disagree?
“Yes please regulate the right-wing troglodyte fascists and their hate speech” is going to have a constituency in the university. “Regulate *my* speech isn't going to have much of a constituency, except maybe for people with a special kink which they pay exorbitantly to get catered to.
Distinguishing between *my* speech (socially useful, to be encouraged) and *their* speech (dangerous, to be discouraged) will always have a constituency.
Let’s compare what you just wrote to the OP’s thesis.
“Currently conservatism seems to equate with hatred and loathing of universities and a desire to crush their speech. Demanding academic freedom for people who want to destroy academic freedom is disingenuous – such views are never going to be popular in universities.”
You had to change a thesis about collective policy to one about a targeted one to make your argument fly.
I was disagreeing with the original post and its cargo-cultish assumptions.
Hypothetical hypocrisy is the worst kind.
The one who pays the piper gets to call the tune. State universities are created and funded by state legislatures. Teachers at those universities are state employees. It is right and proper for legislatures to decide how tax money shall be spent.
The Supreme Court doesn't seem to agree with such an absolutist argument. They seem to feel there is a distinction to be made between government speech and professorial speech at public universities. The devil will be in the details, I suppose.
Then the Supreme Court can pay to fund these purgatorial cesspools -- the other solution is for us to simply stop funding them.
And then to TAX them.
"Purgatorial cesspools."
Did you get fired from your university job?
State universities are created and funded by state legislatures. Teachers at those universities are state employees. It is right and proper for legislatures to decide how tax money shall be spent.
This is only partly true. In state tuition at UMass, for example is about $16,000/year, and out-of-state is almost double that.
So students pay, as does the federal government in some ways.
OK, then, if the university doesn’t run its curriculum in accordance with legislative mandates, the only sanction should be a cut-off of state funds. They could be allowed to take funds from other sources.
Yay Hillsdale!
Wait, what?
I was attempting sarcasm on the Internet - a notoriously delicate thing to attempt.
But my non-sarcastic point is that for the state legislature to tell state colleges, "teach our curriculum or no state funds for you!" would be considered equivalent to a command - if they really were forced to choose a legislatively-mandated curriculum to get their state aid, they'd choose the legislatively-mandated curriculum. (Though this assumes they won't try to slyly evade the requirements.)
But they are running it the way a lot of taxpayers want.
Contrary to the myth being propagated here, the legislature does not represent the wishes of all, or even necessarily most, taxpayers on all issues.
Do you think the taxpayers will want tuition doubled, or the university to fall apart.
I didn't think you were one of the education haters on the right.
Innocence by association is as silly as guilt by association.
“Look at that college’s wonderful nursing program, therefore we must unquestioningly subsidize the Left-Handed-Lesbian-Literature program” is ridiculous.
It is cargo cultism. Look at these successful people with STEM degrees, etc., therefore anyone with a degree must be an awesome and intelligent person. Create a program, print up the degree, and stand by and wait for the cargo to arrive.
This is pure strawman.
No one designs or evaluates academic programs like this.
It's cargo cultism to say that anyone who criticizes CRT in the university level (for instance) is anti-education or anti-university.
CRT is a valid subject of discussion. Here's a secret: You can oppose that philosophy while still liking education and supporting people who want real education at universities.
CRT is a valid subject of discussion. Here’s a secret: You can oppose that philosophy while still liking education and supporting people who want real education at universities.
If it's a valid subject of discussion, why shouldn't it be discussed?
And if you're going to argue against it maybe you should learn something about it besides Rufo's cartoons.
The Florida bill bans racist teaching and racial harassment.
Sarcrastro says Florida wants to ban CRT. Which means CRT includes racist teaching and racist harassment.
Maybe Sarcastro is wrong - such things have happened. If so I'm sorry for accepting his definition.
Florida's law doesn't say you can't discuss it. It says you can't promote it.
I don't think you're actually stupid enough to not grasp the difference between teaching "about" and teaching "that".
It’s cargo cultism to say that anyone who criticizes CRT in the university level (for instance) is anti-education or anti-university.
You have a real strawman problem. I don't see that under discussion here. Florida et all want to ban CRT, not just criticize it.
Stick to the OP or comment you are replying to, not some new thesis you prefer. You have a real issue with this.
To forbid racial harassment in the classroom isn’t the same thing as being an “education hater[]” who wants to defund the universities, as I was straw-manned as saying. So, sure, there’s a straw man problem, you have that much correct, you just didn’t identify the source.
I'm told that critical race theory *really* means teaching about slavery and segregation and similar tragic events. If that's what it means, you're wrong to say that Florida wants to ban it - I've read the bill. It bans racial harassment.
Likewise, setting a curriculum for state-funded schools is not the same as hating education. I've already discussed this and explained (as if it weren't obvious) that state schools aren't going to turn down state money, even if they don't like the conditions attached to the money. That doesn't mean they'll strictly comply with the conditions, but whatever they do it won't include turning down cold hard tax money.
" Florida et all want to ban CRT, not just criticize it. "
Your position is fundamentally incoherent, Sarcastr0.
Florida's law doesn't ban CRT by name. It bans teaching as true a list of odious ideas. Real vicious stuff.
You deny that those ideas ARE CRT.
But you claim that the law that bans those ideas is banning CRT.
So, which is it? Is CRT odious, or is Florida banning something besides CRT?
You hate a viewpoint. You are good with it being banned.
You are an authoritarian.
I hate plenty of viewpoints, so do you.
I want teaching them in public schools on the public's dime banned. I expect that so do you.
You just don't find doctrines such as collective racial guilt offensive enough to ban in public schools so long as they're not pointed at blacks. Should a teacher start teaching his students that lynching was right and good, and that the police should go out there tomorrow and start gunning down blacks at random to reduce the crime rate, and flunk students who don't agree?
You'd be willing to fire their ass in an instant.
Point it in the other direction, though, and you get all nuanced.
I am not such a hubristic overconfident fool as to try and instantiate a regime wherein viewpoints I hate are specifically banned.
That's you, not me. You are the one who can't even contemplate being wrong about something.
I'm fine with a content-neutral standard that includes standards about what can be taught and what can't. I'm not fine with a viewpoint-specific standard that carves out what cannot be taught.
That is why you and I are different. And why you are not on the side of freedom of speech.
"Contrary to the myth being propagated here, the legislature does not represent the wishes of all, or even necessarily most, taxpayers on all issues."
The idea that a select set of unelected government employees will more reliably represent those wishes is quite a bit more of a myth.
We have a mechanism for determining the public will. It's not arriving at an answer you like, so you're rejecting it.
"OK, then, if the university doesn’t run its curriculum in accordance with legislative mandates, the only sanction should be a cut-off of state funds. They could be allowed to take funds from other sources."
It isn't that simple. The last time something like this was tried was when the Church was disestablished (Massachusetts in 1855) and it is still a mess today in terms of things like property lines. Even if you cut off state funds, it still would be a publicly funded institution because of the pension and credit liabilities, not to mention the fact that the entire physical plant (all the land & buildings) was obtained at public expense.
Of course, I argue that (excepting Hillsdale & Grove City Colleges) the private IHEs really are public because of the Federal funds and state tax exemptions. How much do you think Harvard would have to pay in taxes if even its real estate were taxed? Or to the IRS if the income on its endowment were taxed?
Bernard11, as to UMass, you can start with the unfunded mandate of the pensions for all of those 6-figure salaries, and then the fact it can rely on "the full faith and credit of the Commonwealth" which *will* have to bail it out when some of its bonded liabilities start going bad. I don't think people realize just how much UMass has spent in the past 25 years.
You think that the MBTA is a mess? UMass is a far bigger and far more expensive one. Every building built since 1990 has been bonded on the ability of UM to charge a set number of students a fee -- and no one has ever been able to tell me what happens if UMass doesn't have that set number of students -- which it won't in the Fall of 2026.
And in addition to the state allocation, you might want to look at the state funded research (and the research overhead on it), etc.
I'm pretty confident that this article would not be written in defense of a law that banned teaching controversial facts that undermine claims of the "holocaust" happening as described.
That's because that person would just be fired. There already are ways to take care of off-the-reservation professors.
Except that they aren't used.
Except they are used against sane conservative professors.
Which views? Oh, you know the ones.
Haha yeah like there are only two sexes.
Weird you didn’t bring in your views on Jews or blacks. Or killing liberals.
Coward.
If I brought in my views on blacks, you’d call me a racist and then ignore the point.
I’d say something like “blacks are just as equal as Whites and don’t need handouts to succeed because they are equal”, and you’d get all full of yourself and go “HOW DARE YOU BE A BIGOT, blacks are inferior to us Whites and need us to pass laws to give them extra to make up for their inferiority YOU FILTHY RACIST”.
Then you’d smugly pat yourself on the back and expect your peers to come and congratulate you on standing up for BIPOC.
If I said anymore about Jews, my dear friend Frank "Goldstein" Drackman down there would have a heart attack in his old White guy 'vette.
Your views are awful and would be very hard to defend as something worthy of academic discussion.
You know this, and so you try and stick to your least objectionable one. Dogmatic anti-trans stuff is the absolute best you have.
Yeah that shouldn’t be targeted. No dice.
You are a walking example of why claims of conservative persecution must be kept general. When made specific they tend to wander into less supportable territory.
So I told you my reasoning for my comment and then you decided instead to read my mind and tell me my reasoning for my comment?
You're a parody.
Here is my specific argument about what you wrote:
"When made specific [the conservatives views being censored] tend to wander into less supportable territory."
Your example is not representative. And you know it.
You know this how?
From reading Breitbart, or John Solomon?
Bernard11, I have personally seen a UMass AfroAm Professor standing outside the DA's office and threaten to burn down the entire City of Northampton (MA) if the DA prosecuted someone for attempted murder -- someone caught on video stabbing two unarmed men.
Also picketing a courthouse, which is a crime in Massachusetts.
OK, gonna have to drop the "Kinder/Gentler" for a minute
and Gonna borrow from my Mentor, Coach/Reverend Kirtland/Sandusky,
but, (and you're a huge one, "BCD")
when you put "Holocaust" in Parentheses, you might as well put your "Sanity" there too.
My Grand Funk RR & Wagners has 2 definitions, 1: "Destruction or slaughter on a mass scale, especially caused by fire or nuclear war" and 2: "The mass murder of Jewish people under the German Nazi regime during the period 1941–5. More than 6 million European Jews, as well as members of other persecuted groups such as Romani, gay people, and disabled people, were murdered at concentration camps such as Auschwitz."
Yeah, I know Anne Frank's diary was written with Ballpoint pen (it wasn't) that weren't available in 1943 Amsterdam, and her pervert Father made it up anyway, (ever read it? oh yeah, you'd have to be able to read, it could be a teenage girls diary from today, if teenage girls still had diaries)
1: Sorry (not really) you weren't "chosen" but hey, you could convert like Rod Carew and Sammy Davis (Jr) or better yet, don't
2: This Jew probably did more in one afternoon for this Country than in your whole pathetic life, what branch did you serve in? (I know, "Homo") any shots fired in anger at you? Ever been to one of the Moose-lum Shitholes you want Israel to surrender to?? What was your MOS (don't know what that is, do you?)
"Bravo Chalie Delta" Oh, you know the Phonetic Alphabet, well it's Marine Corpse Slang for "Big Chicken Dinner" AKA "Bad Conduct Discharge" which is probably what you got, if you even managed to pass your MEPS (don't know what that is?, do you, you Fuck) Physical without getting a boner being around hundreds of young men,
No Offense,
Frank "I now return you to kinder/gentler Frank"
lol you're only half Jew.
Do you think World War II happened exactly has described by the victors?
and you're a half-wit,
Yes the Japs sneak attacked us at Pearl Harbor, took 2 A-bombs to get them to surrender, and Hitler was a Paper-Hanging Drug Addict Son of a Bitch.
Like how you don't try to say you aren't a Homo, closest you've got to combat is watching McHale's Navy, it'd actually be sort of redeeming if you did get a Big Chicken Dinner, but you're so fucking stupid you didn't even know what it was when you chose your fake name.
In Medicine we often talk about the Tatoo to Tooth Ratio, I'm sure yours is >1.0, and you probably have something stupid like "Marine SEAL"
Seriously, I've taken shits with more courage than you,
Frank
You seem pretty upset. I hope you're okay.
"Do you think World War II happened exactly has described by the victor"
With the exception of Soviet atrocities, pretty closely, yes.
Not WWI, but WWII there were enough soldiers that went on to write books that we have a pretty good idea. We know about Dresden, etc.
Which reminds me of one of Churchill's jokes :
"History will be kind to me. For I intend to write it."
I sympathize with the desire to keep legislatures out of the business of micro-managing classroom instruction. It is rarely good policy and often doesn't even try to be - more a vehicle for grandstanding.
Nonetheless, it isn't a First Amendment issue. There is no such thing as "academic freedom" in First Amendment jurisprudence. With the current court dominated by originalists, there is no way it is going to suddenly recognize a special enhanced form of free speech for professors that other public employees don't have. Nor should it.
Agreed -- and the other solution is to simply shut the whole damn thing down! No more money, let them eat chalk!
The OP makes a pretty decent purposovist argument. I’m not such a legal realist I think it’s not worth getting it’s day in court.
I am also sure there can be an originalist argument floating around. The determinism of originalism is perception not reality - if you don’t like that originalist methodology and sources, I have others!
Pick your own original source is a game with far fewer choices than pick your own purpose.
It’s an originalist purpose.
The only "originalist purpose" is to restrict the discretion of judges to the actual text, as fixed at the origin.
It's true that if there are three possible originalist meanings of a text (and a thousand purposive ones) a judge applying the originalist method might pick the one of the three that suits his policy preference best, rather than honestly selecting the one that is the most convincing historically. But that is still better than purposivism, since it restricts discretion of the judge to only three choices rather than a thousand.
That's not purposivism.
Originalism is not in any way more narrow than any other specified doctrine of interpretation, purposism included.
You are mathematically incorrect.
Originalism constrains judicial discretion quite well, because any preferred interpretation has to be colorably related to an actual bit of historical evidence of usage. That is to say a written document that actually exsts, and dates from the relevant time. It cannot be plucked entirely from the judicial fundament.
But purpose ? It's not written down in the law. If it was written down it's be part of the statutory or constitutional words and we wouldn't have to guess at it. Strange that the legislators wouldn't bother to write down the most important bit of the law they're writing.
There's no restriction on where the judge can seek out "purpose". If there's nothing convenient in the legislative history, or the speeches of a Congresscrittur who voted for the measure, or writings in a book that the drafters are thought to have read, purpose can be inferred by the judge from his common sense. Nor does the judge have to worry about balancing the weight of the different and conflicting purposes that may have resulted in the compromise that turned up in print. The judge can weight different purposes as he wishes.
The originalist judge, even if he is dishonest, has a very limited menu of options to select from, and all of them have to be written down, as at the time of adoption or enactment. The dishonest purposive judge can select anything from a practically unlimited menu, including menu items of his own design. The purposivist judge has virtually unlimited discretion.
Above average comments today. Good.
The phrase "state government officials" should cover other faculty, university administration, as well as legislators. Some in the university may want a shield from legislative censorship, while defending their right to censor unwanted speech by colleagues.
Sexists, racists, pedophiles, flat earthers, homophobes, anarchists and terrorists can all be citizens. They all have the right to have views and to make their voices heard. That is the underlying principle of the 1st amendment.
"legislators"
No, legislators are elected to influence and enact policy. Although they collect a salary, they are not speaking for the State, but their own view.
By the same token, a college or university professor remains free to advocate anything (to the limits of the 1st Amendment) when not teaching. Same for any state employee when not on the job.
Only elected officials can speak for the state, that's part of their job. They can let others make official statements.
Elected people are not employees of the government. They are the government, in the domain of their elected capacity.
Only in an official and collective sense. If a State Legislature votes to enact a law, that becomes the policy of the State.
We are talking here about individual elected officials. A State Representative or Senator holds a special position different from any other state employee. He or she can advocate any policy they want, which their colleagues may or may not agree with.
"When state government officials attempt to restrict what ideas can be taught in the classrooms of public universities, they do real damage not only to the intellectual life of those universities but also to the public discourse of the country."
It may come as a surprise to you, but Provosts, Deans, and Professors are "state government officials" and hence you are arguing that THEY can neither restrict what ideas are taught in the classrooms of public universities nor who can teach there.
I could live with affirmative action for conservatives, I could live with professors being selected via a lottery system -- but could you?
You cite OW Holmes in defense of your position? The "three generations of imbeciles is enough" Holmes? Perhaps not the great champion of liberty you think he is. But that makes sense, since he was the premier legal realist, the intellectual grandfather of the CRT crap that denies virtually all the principles of Enlightenment liberalism that you claim to defend. Yeah, let them have the power and see what happens to your precious liberalism once they're in charge. You think the DeSantis right is bad when they run things. Wait till you see what happens when the OW Holmes left gets a hold of the levers. But you have Eisgruber as your president. You know that already. Marx was right; the capitalists will sell us the rope to hang them with.
Holy moly that is a lot of ad hominem!
You write: “When state government officials attempt to restrict what ideas can be taught in the classrooms of public universities, they do real damage not only to the intellectual life of those universities but also to the public discourse of the country.”
But administrators, department chairs, search committees, etc. do it all the time in the hiring process, and you know it. The reason why state governments have to swoop in is because the progressives running the universities are simply incapable of fairly assessing conservative and libertarian applicants. If the faculty weren't such ideologically driven assholes--if they in fact practiced what you preach--the legislation in places like Florida would not be necessary.
Academic freedom is not a suicide pact. If we have to suspend it for a decade to get things straight, so be it. If not, the Left will suspend it permanently.
Yes, when you cede complete government control over something, government usually gives it back after a decade. Good plan.
University of Florida is a public university. Nobody ceded control to the government; the government created the school and the people of Florida fund it.
Then what exactly is being "suspended for a decade" in your original comment, professor? And you are begging the question in the OP, whether or not there should be some independence from government control for professorial speech at public universities.
If the faculty weren’t such ideologically driven assholes–if they in fact practiced what you preach–the legislation in places like Florida would not be necessary.
If DeSantis and the FL legislature weren't such a bunch of idiots and assholes they'd know enough to leave things alone.
I agree with Keith that the legislation is too over broad, but the academic left brought on themselves. Using the people's resources and money to relentlessly attack the people's traditions, beliefs, and cultural inheritance is just not a good deal for the people. At some point, they will say, "Enough is enough. Build your own university."
The OP makes a constitutional argument. You are making a policy argument by way of ipse dixit and spite.
Bad thing being taught isn’t going to find much purchase until you engage with the OPs argument.
There simply is no academic freedom exception to teach at a public university. The ordinary Garcetti principle applies to public university professors as it does to police officers and sanitation employees.
Read the OP and try again. There is some 1A implications regarding academic freedom in the caselaw. It's specifics are confused.
to relentlessly attack the people’s traditions, beliefs, and cultural inheritance
Some of those need to be relentlessly attacked.
I bet even some real conservative professors know that.
"...but the academic left brought on themselves..."
Which was exactly the point Professor Whittington made in an earlier post.
The academic left built and operates our strongest research and teaching institutions, founded on reason, science, modernity, progress, and inclusiveness.
The academic right, meanwhile, operates a bunch of fourth-tier (or worse), dogma-enforcing, nonsense-teaching, censorship-shackled hayseed factories that suppress science to flatter childish superstition and often rely on sketchy accreditation. Conservative-controlled schools issue statements of faith, impose old-timey speech and conduct codes, teach absolute fucking nonsense, engage in ruthless discrimination (hiring and firing to admissions and research), collect loyalty oaths, and generally flout sound educational principles.
The eventual way to sift this may involve accreditation.
People are entitled to teach and study fairy tales (creationism, Trump election fantasies, Holocaust denial, white supremacy, Confederate revisionism, the Bible, etc.) as nonfiction if they wish, but the modern American mainstream should not recognize degrees awarded by nonsense-teaching, belligerently ignorant, old-timey conservative schools.
"'If DeSantis and the FL legislature weren’t such a bunch of idiots and assholes..."
Idiots and assholes who were democratically elected which the faculty were not!
Whatever you do, don't say
"Colored People"
Frank
Is the name NAACP offensive? Just whom do they claim to be representing?
So the taxpayers, through their elected representatives, should not be able to determine the curriculum at a state university?
I disagree.
At the extreme, this is arguing a calculus instructor should be able to spend the entire class advocating anti-semitism.
At the other extreme, this is arguing that the legislature could fire all professors who present the Republican Party platform or its position on any issue. Would that be okay with you, if the Democratic majority in the state approved?
Lol it’s not much different than that now. They filter out normal people with their extremist DIE statement requirements.
Firing professors who teach Republican positions? Does this include firing professors who teach things on which Republicans and Democrats agree - such as massive federal debt, mismanaged social programs, open-ended foreign interventionism, etc?
Lots of Democrats' jobs would be in danger under such a policy.
Quit smuggling your third way nonsense into conversations not about that.
Oh, come off it, he mentioned Republican party positions, without distinction.
Maybe he *meant* to say "issues where Republicans differ from Democrats," but he didn't say that, did he?
Nonsense. Your comment had nothing to do with the point Alpheus was making. Even if true, it did not address the validity or lack thereof of the op.
It was just your pet argument yet again.
I think that interpreting someone’s words literally is a perfectly valid option on a legal blog. It would at least be an opportunity for someone to refine their position and clarify that of course they don’t mean *all* Republican party positions.
Just because you have a Manichean view where Tweedledee is evil and Tweedledum is good, and that they are necessarily opposed to each other, doesn’t mean you get to filter out opposing positions or have your views unchallenged.
And I see you smuggled in the claim that I was advocating a “third way.”
I’m advocating a *second* way.
The Republicans and Democrats are travelling on the same way (road), a way very similar to the broad way described in Matthew 7:13. The Democrats are going faster and more recklessly, so the Republicans are having difficulty catching up, but they’re both going in the same direction.
I would suggest a second way, known as the American way.
"Does this include firing professors who teach things on which Republicans and Democrats agree..."
Ha ha I get your point. Okay then, just things over which the two main parties disagree. Although any type of governmental control of curricula along these lines seems bad to me.
You're arguing that the calculus teacher will have to teach anti-semitism if taxpayers are invoked to demand it.
Technically, that would violate the Establishment clause, but otherwise, yes. And it's funny you'd ask that, given that you're defending teaching CRT, which is essentially indistinguishable from antisemitism in any relevant regard.
You want defined exceptions to majority rule in a democracy, persuade people to write them into the Constitution. "vox populi, vox Dei", may be a sucky position, but it's the least worst of them all, and certainly beats "vox mea vox dei" all hollow.
I get your "But I really think that's wrong, so the people can go pound sand!" view. Seriously, I do. But the diversity of things that a few people think are really wrong means that's simply not a generalizable principle. Implement it without generalizing, of course, and you've just got oligarchy or dictatorship.
At Auburn University (2010 BCS Champions BTW) Summer Quarter 1981 I had an Ear-Ronian Calculus "Instructor" (AKA Graduate Student) who did exactly that,
he was really pissed when the IDF took out the Osirak reactor, gotta admire his ability to work it in to lectures on Partial Derivatives, Double and Triple Integrals, Gauss's Divergence,
We'd (OK, me) fuck with him, the obvious, draw a Star of David in indelible ink on the New Fangled "No Erase" Boards, Come to class wearing an Eyepatch (don't think he got the Moshe Dayan reference, Hey! I had a Corneal Abrasion) and do that Animal House "Bullshit" cough whenever he'd stray into Political Convo (not sure why he didn't go back in 79 or 80, I think I know why he didn't go back in 1981)
Frank
At the extreme, this is arguing a calculus instructor should be able to spend the entire class advocating anti-semitism.
No. Anyone who tried that would quickly be reassigned.
At the extreme, according to you, to bring up the perennial, the legislature could order the biology and geology departments to teach creationism, or the history professor to teach that Biblical history is inerrant.
Right, exactly. My question to those who support these types of laws is: what is the limit to these powers? Is this not a dangerous slippery slope to stuff which I would assume all of us would hate.
So then where does the power to decide what is taught reside, if not with the professor and not with the legislature? I don't think the First Amendment requires that the power reside specifically with the presidents and deans and whatnot that are in between.
As a constitutional doctrine, "the professors have a First Amendment right to teach whatever they want and no legislation can ever alter this, but if it's something antisemitic or otherwise icky then it's OK to reassign them" seems unworkable.
So then where does the power to decide what is taught reside, if not with the professor and not with the legislature? I don’t think the First Amendment requires that the power reside specifically with the presidents and deans and whatnot that are in between.
This is the precise defining question.
The answer is simple...
The People through their elected representatives.
Curriculum comes before "academic freedom".
Over 90% of American students attend public schools K-12, and the curriculum is generally set by the state's department of education--and in some contexts--the public school districts can require their students to take additional classes to graduate.
In the higher education context, why should public universities be able to set their own curriculum--through deferring to their professors--when these public universities have demonstrated themselves as providing indoctrination instead of education? American citizens have the right through their elected representatives to determine what they are willing to pay for and not--especially when they recognize that their children are returning to them without any greater understanding of their own country, and often with untrue, critical race theory and trans ideology in its place.
It's preposterous--and arrogant--to think that the continuing deference to public university professors to teach what they want at the expense of the Americans who pay their salaries. Professors did this to themselves, and no one should feel sorry for them.
Question begging. Right wingers being unhappy is not proof of much. What is indoctrination and what is curriculum? Good luck drawing that line.
Sure, but this goes both ways. Plenty of lefties try to argue that DEI, etc. isn't extraneous because it's simply part and parcel of what students need to succeed in the future, etc. It's turtles all the way down (or up). I guess actual pluralism will have to make a comeback at some point.
Yes line drawing matters to all sorts of viewpoints.
So how do you draw that line? Infinite pluralism is impossible given the limits of time and attention.
You draw the line.....pluralistically.
Each owner determines what is to be taught in his schools, by whom and how. Some owners may decide to appoint a Board and leave the details to them. Some may wish to redirect the Board should it start going in a direction the owner doesn't like. Some may wish to micromanage from day one. Absent monopoly, ownership provides a natural pluralism, and hence a pleasing diversity of lines.
This is both obvious and easy to see with private schools. But with government schools it has been made harder to appreciate because a myth has grown up that government schools are not owned by the government, but by the employees of the schools.
But since it is just a myth, we just need to remind ourselves that, as a matter of fact, government schools are government schools. And thus the government decides where the lines are to be. The state government may delegate to school/college boards and not interfere further. Or it may choose to micromanage. Or somewhere in between. Or it may change the degree of micromanagement from time to time.
To the extent that one might be concerned about the monopoly risk of state governments owning a large proportion of the schools in their state, there's a very simple solution to that. It's the same solution as applies if - for some ancient reason - the state government has come to own most of the power plants in the state.
Neither power plants nor schools need to be owned by the state.
Yes, we could ignore education as a public good and utterly remake society so that education has *owners*. That would make this an easier problem, though it would lead to a ton of others.
It's not really a very interesting solution to contemplate. Dealing with the real world here, as the OP does, we would want some kind of content-neutral line drawing mechanism. That's a nontrivial problem.
Education is no more a public good than are power plants. Neither is non-excludable and non-rivalrous, as respects the direct consumer. And both have large net positive externalities as respects indirect consumers.
And schools are indeed owned. Sorry about that. Their product - education - is experienced rather than becoming an item of property that is owned. But the same goes for lots of things. Movies and movie theaters are owned. The paying customer experiences the movie.
Deliberately confusing the product or service with the means of production to try to make a fallacious rhetorical point indicates you are getting rusty in your old age.
Back to sophistry school for a refresher.
Doh !
I’m making the same mistake as you, though in my case it’s just carelessness. Power plants are the means of production and power is the product.
But the answer is the same. Education is no more a public good than power.
The current generation of professors have broad tenure protections, generally including a lot of freedom in the classroom. If enforcement of the Contracts Clause was still a thing, then legislation to override these tenure protections would be considered unconstitutional.
So the question narrows down to what policies the state will impose on its *newly hired* academic employees – should they be hired without the traditional tenure guarantees, and be required instead to follow a certain line?
Also, a related issue – should it be legal for professors to create a hostile environment in the classroom by, say, singling out students of a particular race for invidious attention? At what point does racist teaching veer over into illegal racial discrimination – especially under current doctrines which define the harms of racist speech very broadly?
It's not just "newly hired" faculty who lack tenure. It includes new tenure-track faculty of course -- but also adjuncts, visiting professors, clinical professors, lecturers, professors of practice, and other such categories of career (as well as temporary) positions.
Sure, and if their contracts say they have to teach to a particular curriculum while they're on the clock, I hope the courts don't treat that as a 1A issue. (Of course, more judges have academic experience than have experience in the Public Works Department, so it would be understandable if judges are more likely to side with academics regarding on-the-job speech than with Public Works employees.)
I’m told, of course (independently of the 1A) that a free-and-open atmosphere in the classroom makes a university more competitive. And I expect some colleges still have this, though not necessarily all of them.
Free and open inquiry is a dream. It isn't reality. It isn't reality in the classroom, it isn't reality in the lab, it isn't reality in the journals.
I remain unconvinced that the issue is one of freedom of speech; instead, it seems to be a question of our ability and willingness to delegate control of a (substantial) portion of our governmental coffers to unelected, unaccountable members of the executive branch. It is a wonderful effort at misdirection by the Professors Union!
Not even the legislature has the power to bind future legislatures via "tenure" contracts, so we need not let the myth of "tenure" invade the discussion. Certainly, the same former Court jurists who wrongly found within the Constitution a right to kill human offspring and a right to favor one "race" over another also wrongly found special rights for a "faculty" caste paid at taxpayer expense. And certainly, too, delegating control over "minor" portions of the coffers is a part of efficient operation: we allow most members of the federal government to spend up to $2000 without question (much to the chagrin of long-time reformers like Mark Warner).
If the First Amendment is indeed a factor, the Fourteenth Amendment is an equal factor. If I strip the robe from the public university professor and instead clothe him in the garb of a public university paramedic, how is freedom of speech implicated? The change seems to suggest that the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment do not apply and that public university professors are granted rights and privileges not enjoyed by other public university employees.
A "journalist" is any citizen who undertakes journalism -- there is no "journalist" caste by virtue of employment arrangement. Likewise, a public employee is a public employee regardless of specific occupation... and every public employee enjoys the right and responsibility to profess the position of the prevailing Government.
If an elective course, there’s room for discussion. If a required course, should students be forced to study one perspective? If a range of perspectives are given equal weight, that’s reasonable.
How do you determine sufficient variety of perspectives?
The laws at issue are about narrowing the number of perspectives.
I don't know if "required vs. elective courses" is the right standard, at least by itself. Public universities tend to have much more latitude than K12 public schools, largely due to the academic freedom issue and the fact that their students are adults...
Conversely, K12 (e.g. high schools) is generally on a fairly tight leash, even for elective courses.
So, by this logic, can public school teachers lead prayers to our Lord God HaShem? I mean, since this is about academic freedom and all?
No. The Establishment Clause still applies.
But if public school teachers' speech were to extend to their speech in the classroom, then teachers should still have discretion to preach Christianity, or Islam, or Scientology; the Establishment clause only means their superiors can not compel them to do such things!
Prof. Whittington, how do you think de Santis and others can legitimately pursue their anti-CRT and Stop Woke goals at state universities? Could policies focused on non-teaching staff achieve similar goals without violating the First Amendment as you think it should be understood? I would have found the article more persuasive with that included for balance.
And another question.
If public school teachers have a First Amendment right to preach Critical Race Theory, or Nazi racial theory, why would they not be able to preach Christianity, or Islam, or Scientology?
Because they would be fired.
You guys really aren't getting the dynamics here. The legislature / executive set up these colleges. They hired the boards and the administrators, who hired the professors and set the standards.
If they're not getting the results they want, they should replace the leadership with people who will run these places in the right way.
This thing of where the legislature passes laws micromanaging the universities -- against the will of the administrators that they hired -- is going to result in horrible dysfunction.
I tend to agree with you. Passing laws here is mostly a game of whack-a-mole. The laws will just be dodged. The only workable solution is to poison the moles and install new ones more to your liking.
Starting at the admin level, but before long you also need to take a scythe to the teaching staff.
And that might require legislative action.
So elected politicians can't tell professors what and what not to teach, but unelected administrators are free to do so? We see this all the time with DEI statements and other punitive actions when professors stray from desired narratives.
DEI statements are punitive actions?
Sure. compelled speech.
pu·ni·tive
adjective
inflicting or intended as punishment.
if your mandatory DEI statement does not say the things that your prospective employer wants it to say, you will suffer a penalty – almost certainly decisive – in the competition for a job.
If you are better qualified academically, and a better teacher, and a better researcher you are still likely to lose out to a less competent someone who writes the approved DEI statement (wheter he/she/it believes it or not.)
It’s a penalty. And it’s a penalty intended to punish you for failing to kowtow.
It’s also a shibboleth, designed to keep out unbelievers, so in that sense it’s not a punishment per se, just a token of loyalty. But it works well nevertheless to punish the unbeliever.
And it's not just at the hiring stage. Failure to bow to the idols may be noted in your annual performance review and held against you.
He's just being picky here; The DIE statement isn't the punishment, it's how they pick who they'll punish.