The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Second Amendment Roundup: Delaware's Gun Ban Heats Up
Third Circuit briefing is ongoing in challenge to rifle ban signed into law just a week after Bruen.
On June 30, 2022, just a week after the Supreme Court decided the Bruen case, Delaware Governor John Carney signed into law a ban on "assault weapons" and standard-capacity magazines, effective immediately. Apparently he didn't get the memo that a ban on firearms in common use is off the table constitutionally.
Delaware plagiarized California's 1989 findings that it was imperative to ban any gun that is not a "sports or recreational firearm." The state ignored the Delaware Bill of Rights guarantee of the right to bear arms "for the defense of self, family, home and State," and disregarded Heller's admonition that self-defense is "the central component of the right itself."
Delaware copied a definition from Connecticut that criminalizes a rifle depending on where one's fingers are placed when firing, and Maryland's long list of banned rifles, such as the Colt AR-15. Curiously, that list excludes AR-15 HBAR (heavy barrel) rifles, unless made by Bushmaster – any semiauto rifle made by that firm is banned.
The U.S. district court for the district of Delaware's denied a motion by challengers for a preliminary injunction on the basis that they are not likely to prevail on the merits. The case is Delaware State Sportsmen's Ass'n v. Del. Dep't of Safety & Homeland Security. Appeal briefs are now being filed, which includes an amicus curie brief on behalf of the Delaware Association of Second Amendment Lawyers by yours truly and co-counsel Dan Peterson. Here are some of our arguments.
Heller held that arms that are in common use for lawful purposes – those chosen by the American people – are protected by the Second Amendment. That rule should resolve any gun ban without further ado. Bruen's methodology, which evaluates restrictions by reference to the text of the Second Amendment and historical analogues, applies to regulations such as about where guns may be carried, not to outright bans on possession, where the common-use test applies.
The district court agreed that rifles like the AR-15 are in common use, which should have have conclusively supported a preliminary injunction. Instead, the court reverted to means-ends scrutiny, which Bruen flatly rejected. The court found such rifles to be "exceptionally dangerous," which it substituted for the Supreme Court's test of "dangerous and unusual." But it did not explain why the banned features make the rifles so dangerous. It claimed that "pistol grips and barrel shrouds" supposedly "increase their lethality," but offered no clue why.
Consider the verboten feature of a semiautomatic rifle with a grip that allows a finger (in addition to the trigger finger) to be below the action "when firing." Are we to believe that a rifle is more lethal if one's fingers are in this position rather than in some other position "when firing"? The very idea that one's finger placement removes an arm from Second Amendment protection trivializes the constitutional right.
The suggestion that pistol grips are associated with "lethality" is belied by the fact that identical pistol grips are found on single-shot rifles (which hold only one round), bolt-action rifles (which require manual reloading for each round), and even on air guns used in Olympic competition.
The court claimed that "an assault rifle bullet travels at multiple times the velocity of a handgun bullet," but there is no such thing as "an assault rifle bullet." Bullets such as the .223 caliber may be fired in any rifle of that caliber, regardless of the rifle's features. The relatively low-powered .223 is not even allowed for deer hunting in Delaware and a number of other states.
The court identified "rate of fire" as another dangerous characteristic. But a semiautomatic rifle with, e.g., a pistol grip, fires no faster than a semiautomatic rifle without one, and Delaware does not ban semiautomatic rifles without the outlawed features.
The district court placed great weight on what it considered to be historical analogues to justify the ban. But the claimed analogues turn out to be the restrictions in a minority of antebellum states on the concealed carry of pistols, Bowie knives, clubs, and the like. These laws were upheld because open carry was allowed, so they cannot be precedents for a ban on mere possession of an arm today.
When these early laws went too far, such as Georgia's 1837 ban on carrying a pistol openly or concealed, they were invalidated. The Georgia Supreme Court, in Nunn v. State, declared that prohibition violative of the Second Amendment, Heller approvingly cited Nunn when it commented, "Few laws in the history of our Nation have come close to the severe restriction of the District's handgun ban. And some of those few have been struck down."
There is a historical twin, though, to Delaware's ban on mere possession: the ban on possession of arms by slaves and free persons of color in the antebellum South. That ban was defended on grounds that African Americans were not citizens and had no right to keep and bear arms. Delaware's ban is exactly what the Second and Fourteenth Amendments were understood to prohibit.
Delaware punished with whipping "any negro or mulatto slave" who would "carry any gun, pistol, sword, dirk, or other unusual or dangerous weapon," and forbade "free negroes and free mulattoes to have, own, keep, or possess any gun, pistol, pistol, sword or any warlike instruments," except that a discretionary permit could be issued to possess a gun or fowling piece. Delaware's Court of General Sessions justified the ban applicable to free blacks on the "police power."
Similar slave codes were enacted and upheld in other states. Georgia's Supreme Court held: "Free persons of color have never been recognized here as citizens; they are not entitled to bear arms, vote for members of the legislature, or to hold any civil office." The Virginia Supreme Court conceded that the restrictions on the right of free blacks to bear arms were "inconsistent with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, both of this State and of the United States." And North Carolina's Supreme Court upheld a similar gun ban because "the free people of color cannot be considered as citizens."
After slavery was abolished, the black codes replaced the slave codes. Mississippi prohibited a freedman from having a firearm, Bowie knife, or other weapon without a license. That was the first state law noted by the Supreme Court in McDonald v. Chicago as typical of what the Fourteenth Amendment was meant to prohibit.
So the slave codes provided the only close analogue to Delaware's current ban on possession of "assault weapons," and it violates the Second and Fourteenth Amendments.
Finally, as I have previously posted, if analogues are to be consulted, the relevant time is around 1791 when the Second Amendment was adopted, not 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Everytown for Gun Safety (sic) has been filing cookie-cutter amicus briefs in various Second Amendment cases arguing for 1868, and then finds alleged analogues through the late 19th and early 20th centuries – which Bruen said is too late.
Cases from the courts of appeals that suggest 1868 is the correct year are based on a single error in the Seventh Circuit's Ezell case, which was later corrected. Every time the Supreme Court has consulted history to determine the original meaning of a provision of the Bill of Rights, it has always looked principally to the Founding in 1791, never primarily to 1868. For the definitive analysis on this issue, see Mark Smith's "Attention Originalists: The Second Amendment Was Adopted in 1791, not 1868."
Changing the goal post for the meaning of Bill of Rights guarantees to 1868 would require a radical upset of the established meaning of every provision from the First through the Eighth Amendments. That just isn't going to happen. It shouldn't happen only for Second Amendment rights, either, because as the Supreme Court has made clear the right to keep and bear arms is not a "second-class right."
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Sure, the 2A initially applied only to residents of DC and federal territories…that’s why the initial case was brought in DC and then McDonald was necessary.
All of the Bill of Rights were incorporated with the adoption of the 14th Amendment.
2A was an individual right at its inception…so it only applied to residents of DC and federal territories. Lol!!
No. It applied to all people in the U.S.
So the states weren’t allowed to infringe the 2A?? And yet they did…such a head scratcher. 😉
Sam, we've been over this before. At its inception, the 2nd amendment only applied to the federal government, but it applied to the federal government EVERYWHERE, not just in DC and federal territories.
It's just that DC and federal territories were the places where the federal government had the most power to violate the amendment. That doesn't mean it was permitted to violate it elsewhere.
I agree. This same logic means the bill of rights and EPC apply to immigration policy.
Certainly to some extent, anyway. I'm one of those "Constitution follows the flag" adherents; Not a big fan of the insular cases.
Nope, that’s why Heller was brought in DC!!! If it applied everywhere then the initial test case could have been brought in Illinois or NYC.
No, Heller was brought in DC because that's where he lived.
It was a test case that could have been brought anywhere…still, McDonald was necessary to incorporate the individual right to the states.
If Heller did not live in, say, SC --- it could not have been brought in SC.
No, it was brought in DC for several reasons.
The primary reason is that Heller lived in DC, so it was the DC government infringing his rights. Other people were also bringing challenges to gun laws where they lived, but Heller won the race to the Supreme court.
But for a variety of reasons, it was also a good test case.
1) DC had, bar none, the worst gun laws in the entire country. If you couldn't win there, forget it, you couldn't win anywhere.
2) Because DC's laws are federal laws, the issue of incorporation didn't arise, simplifying the case.
3) But at the same time, DC's government isn't the federal government, meaning that the federal judiciary's spinal reflex to defer to Congress wasn't operative, meaning you didn't start 95% of the way to losing.
4) DC is extremely small, so the Court could look at the issue without immediate nation-wide consequences, and thus be less skittish.
You could challenge a regular federal gun law, but factor 3 meant that you started right out with an almost automatic loss, as did factor 4.
What was NOT a factor was the 2nd amendment only applying to people living in DC and federal territories. If it applied at all, it was everywhere the federal government had any jurisdiction at all.
You have said multiple times that you believe McDonald is a mistake and the 2A didn’t require incorporation and so you admit the Supreme Court being fallible.
You must have me confused with somebody else. My only complaint with the Court's recent 2nd amendment jurisprudence is that it's been kind of cowardly when it comes to military arms.
No, you believe the 2A was an individual right at inception and incorporation was unnecessary.
Yes to the first, no to the second.
So you believe the 2A was an individual right that the states were free to infringe??
To the extent that their own constitutions didn't have similar constraints, yeah. Most of them did have such constraints, the 2nd amendment was modeled off them
I realize there was a contrary view about the time the Bill of Rights was ratified, but it was very much a minority viewpoint, and did not prevail.
As I said, look at Article 1, Section 10: Where the drafters intended that the Constitution constrain the states, they said so. Explicitly. So it's perfectly reasonable as a matter of construction to declare that, where it does not say so, it doesn't.
Is this the way I would have preferred it to be? No, not really. But it was clearly the dominant understanding at the time of ratification, and so is binding from an originalist standpoint.
I certainly don't think the 2nd Amendment required incorporation.
And nobody thinks the Supreme Court is infallible.
Sam Bankman-Fried 6 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"2A was an individual right at its inception…so it only applied to residents of DC "
Sam- fyi - DC did not exist at the time of the congressional ratification of the BoR's.
The BoR's was adopted by congress oct 1789 and set to the states for ratification.
The district of columbia was created July 16, 1790.
The Second Amendment was not in force until 1791, so DC was extant at the time. But it was only a ramshackle collection of low buildings and huts surrounded by marshes and mud in 1791. It was not made the nation's capital for another nine years.
correct the BoR wasnt enforce until the ratification by the states. My point was that the BoR was adopted by congress in oct 1789 and then sent to the states for ratification. The DC was created in July 1790.
Sam bankman was making the stupid claim that the BoR only applied in DC and federal territories which is an illogical since the BoR was send to the states prior to the creation of DC
So why was it necessary to incorporate the 2A?? If the 2A applied to people in the states at inception McDonald would have been unnecessary.
How do you know?
Sam Bankman-Fried 10 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Sure, the 2A initially applied only to residents of DC and federal territories…that’s why the initial case was brought in DC and then McDonald was necessary."
Sam - you have been corrected far too many times to continue to make the same false statement. You should be embarrassed.
2A applied to the federal government in all the states. Prior to 14A, the argument was that 2A did not apply to the states.
He is a parody account, after all. You have to expect relentless stupidity on some topics, it's part of the genre.
I (still) don't understand why 2nd had to wait for the 14th to be "incorporated."
To be sure, the first reads "Congress shall make no law" and it follows that, on its own, it doesn't apply to the states.
But the 2nd isn't directed at restricting Congress; more simply, it establishes the right of the people. Further, the "militias," as I understand it, were always "organized," if that's the proper term, at the state level which is to say that it doesn't seem to make sense that the 2nd only constrained Congress before the 14th.
I've offered this perspective before without anyone offering an explanation/rebuttal.
Anyway, that's what I think.
Stephen - there is an argument that the BoR applied to the states at ratification under the theory that the states , the people of the states and the federal government were the parties to the constitution/ contract.
Thomas noted that in his concurring opinion in McDonald ( a footnote as I recall).
Granted those concur ing that argument are in the minority. To some extent, I believe the argument has some merit. Though baron v Baltimore Circa 1805 basically shut that discussion down
Very helpful. Thank you.
The explanation, simply put, is that the Constitution is a constitution for the federal government, and so any language in it has to be interpreted as only applying to the federal government unless specified otherwise.
The authors obviously knew how to make application to state governments explicit, since they did so repeatedly in Article 1, Section 10. One "No State shall" clause after another...
Bingo—and unlike the other BoR amendments the 2A is an individual right and not a mere restriction on the federal government…which is why only residents of DC and federal territories had the individual right while states could infringe the 2A willy nilly prior to Heller.
Don't you ever get even a little tired of playing the fool like that?
It’s so strange that an individual right would need to be incorporated…such a head scratcher. 😉
It's not strange at all. The right to a jury trial is also an individual right. So is the right to speak your mind (free speech), choose what church to go to (freedom of religion), be free of cruel and unusual punishments, etc. The only right in the Bill of Rights that's even arguably collective is # 10 and even that only to the extent that it specifically mentions "the States respectively". And all of them (except #10) had to be 'incorporated' against the states over time.
#10 isn't even a right, the word "right" appears nowhere in it. It's a (flatly ignored) rule of construction.
2A is a federalism provision like the Establishment Clause, so the Federal Government couldn’t disarm the state militias like the British did at Lexington and Concord. RKBA actually derives from the right to privacy but Scalia had to distort the text of the 2A because he doesn’t believe in the right to privacy.
Not true, the Supremacy Clause disposes of that argument:
"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."
But in in case Article I gave Congress the authority to arm the militia, then the 2nd made sure they could arm themselves.
But since History and Tradition are a part of the equation, can you cite any case before the Slaughterhouse cases that said the 2nd Amendment didn't apply to the states?
There aren't many cases that addressed the issue, but in Nunn v Georgia, 1841, Georgia's Supreme Court was pretty plain they thought it was incorporated:
"Our opinion is, that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the Constitution, and void, which contravenes this right".
Yup. They could have made it explicit had they intended. Thanks.
Brett - below is a portion of Thomas's concurring opinion in McDonald explaining the theory that the BoR was incorporated against the states at the time of ratification, not withstanding Baron v Baltimore.
The secondary argument is that it applied to all subsequent states (most of those created after the first 13) was that the BoR applied against the federal government and that the creation of the subsequent states was from federal territory, thus the residents could not lose the BoR against those states in areas where new states were created out of former federal territory. Note that the position is not well accepted, and also noted that Thomas was only pointing out the rational and further stated that whether the BoR was incorporated against the states at ratification or under 14A was moot for purposes of deciding McDonald
Pure judicial bad faith to claim that it's not likely to succeed on the merits. Maybe if heard before some URM judge appointed by Obongo or Pedo Joe.
At this point, it's pretty clear that any judge who was inclined to ignore Heller will ignore Bruen too.
The amount of defiance at at the district court level is astounding. Regardless of the subject, whether it be be insurance, arms bans, or anything California can come up with in all its inventiveness, none of it is impeded by what the Supreme Court says.
It looks like the progressive strategy now is to overwhelm the supreme Court with bullshit knowing full well that it can only swat a fly or two to out of the swarm, and only after 4 years at that.
That’s why I’ve been saying for years that we need treason convictions along with mandatory death sentences for judges involved in lower court rulings involving the 2nd Amendment that are ultimately overturned by higher courts.
Like I said below, just tell these judges that their rulings at this point are so indefensible that they're forfeiting their judicial immunity by them, and they'll fall in line.
Give the judges some skin in the game, and they'll stop playing games.
That's too extreme. I would be satisfied with public whippings and confinement in stocks on the village green, with a supply of overripe tomatoes close by.
Unless you suppose the most corrupt justice in Supreme Court history is by some miraculous transformation empowered to write a legitimate opinion, why shouldn't every opinion written by Thomas be ignored outright, until he resigns from the Court.
But please do not suppose I am singling out Thomas. At this point it is time to impeach and remove the lot of them, and start over. Maybe leave Jackson in place, because she has not yet had time to besmirch the Court as the others have. Fair is fair.
By that kind of logic, the Supreme Court is far more legitimate than Joe Biden, and so we should impeach and replace his entire administration.
Remember when Bush stole the 2000 election and then lied us into a war all the while selling us out to China??
I remember the selling us out to China part, and that was bad enough without adding delusions on top of it.
He also ejaculated into a 22 year old's mouth. I realize that to you leftists, he'd have been a hero if the intern was a dude, but that wasn't the case, sadly.
A man ejaculating into a 22 year old college graduate’s mouth is generally seen as pretty cool thing….are you like Lindsey Graham and vaginas gross you out??
You are saying that Thomas is "the most corrupt justice in Supreme Court history?" That's patently ridiculous. It's debatable as to whether what he has done even satisfies the definition of corruption, while a colleague of his, Sotomayor, has engaged in obvious, quid-pro-quo corruption with Penguin books, not to mention her staff promoting her books on her speaking tour. Wow.
Be that as it may, it is no excuse or license for lower courts, or anyone else, to ignore SCOTUS decisions!
Why would Sotomayor being quite corrupt have anything to do with Thomas' opinions?
Right, the only response by the Court that would actually work is to stop remanding and start summarily reversing. Maybe with some pointed dicta about judges not being immune to 18 U.S. Code § 242.
Strike some real fear into the massive resistance crowd.
There are plenty of politicians and judges engaged in massive resistance, but Bruen supplies an utterly unworkable standard.
That's an odd assertion. The standard seems workable to a lot of judges, who have applied it both to uphold and strike down various laws.
"Unworkable" and "I don't like the results" are NOT the same thing, David. The Bruen standard is perfectly workable, you just don't like the consequences of applying it.
It's possible even the Court itself won't like those consequences, it wouldn't be the first time they backed off on a ruling after realizing its actual implications.
But it's perfectly workable.
Do you know David’s preferred policies on guns? I sure don’t. He deals with what the law is more than what he hopes the law to be.
If I had to guess, he tends libertarian and thus against regulation.
You tend to see analysis you don’t like as outcome oriented. But lots of people are capable of separating the way it is from the way they would like it to be.
As Michael says, many judges have no trouble applying it. Again, "unworkable" and "don't like the results" aren't the same thing.
I wouldn't say "no trouble" or "perfectly workable" (yet): lots of workable ideas require effort and care. But given the evidence of the standard being put into practice, "utterly unworkable" is overblown rhetoric.
I am agnostic about the results. I think there is an individual right to self defense.
I do think as guidance to lower courts this asks courts to do things courts are bad at without much other discussion.
You know what you want to see as an outcome and declare all other outcomes a sign of bad faith.
I am concentrating on the procedure mandated and see a mess. Most doctrines are built up over time. This is top down mandated. Either a lot more guidance, hopefully with references to tried and true judicial methods, or buckle in for a decade or 2 of inconsistency as this area of law builds up. Assuming it makes it that far.
It was top down mandated because, frankly, enough lower courts just didn't like Heller or McDonald, and were doing rational basis and just calling it strict scrutiny in order to uphold unconstitutional laws, that the Supreme court either had to give up on the 2nd amendment, or bring the lower courts to heel with a standard so painfully clear that it would be drop dead obvious when it wasn't being followed.
As it wasn't being followed here.
IOW, it was judges like this one who took nuance off the table.
Lol. This is the opposite of painfully clear.
It's so painfully clear that people who don't like it exhibit willful incomprehension.
Of course you think that. You thought that about Heller as well. You think people coming to different conclusions than you are lying about everything under the sun.
It's painfully clear if you're acting in good faith. If you start from the assumption that guns are dangerous, and therefore, can be banned, then I suppose it's not "clear."
Oy! So sorry. Accidentally touched the "Flag Comment" and I don't see how I can undo it.
There is no way to undo it. You'd think they'd at least give you a few seconds to undo an oopsie.
Well, it's all good, because as far as I can tell, "Flag Comment" doesn't do anything anyway.
Well it does something - it puts a big orange blob on your view of the page so the comment becomes more obnoxiously distracting than it was before you flagged it.
As far as I can tell that's the only thing it does. I used to flag stupid spam which a moderator could take one glance at and remove. However, that moderation never seemed to happen so I gave up.
I don't think they do anything about flagging unless a comment accumulates multiple.
I suspect subsequent law enforcement action may also have an effect. There is some anecdotal evidence that has occurred here in the past. https://reason.com/2016/11/30/preet-bharara-the-guy-who-subpoenaed-rea/
Speaking not just of this issue, but more generally, is that *always* a bad thing?
At this point of 2nd Amendment jurisprudence when the cert petition like this case reaches the Supreme Court where the circuit court is purposely ignoring Bruen and Heller they should just GVR the petition per curium, telling the circuit court to do it right, AND issue an injunction staying the law because its got zero chance of being upheld pending a redo of the decision.
I think the behavior of the district courts will change once the supreme court starts taking interlocatory cases, and stops waiting for a circuit court split.
Scolding the dog the day after does no good, you need to catch him pissing on the carpet.
The problem is that the pussies Kavanagh and Roberts care about "legacy" meaning they let issues "percolate" instead of manning the fuck up and doing what needs to be done.
Sounds like a crummy law opposed by a crummy and intellectually dishonest gun advocate.
For instance, "The relatively low-powered .223 is not even allowed for deer hunting in Delaware and a number of other states," serves only to obfuscate the fact that the .223 fired from an AR-style rifle is more powerful than a .44 magnum pistol. Add the higher rate of fire of the AR, its interchangable magazines, and its more-controllable recoil, and it becomes easy to see why it is an unreasonable menace to public safety.
You are ignoring the primary point of the 2nd Amendment. "[F]or the defense of self, family, home and State" is exactly why one wants a weapon with the characteristics you cite as being "an unreasonable menace to public safety."
Well, of course if you add things that aren't true, like a semi-auto rifle having a higher rate of fire than a pistol... They both fire as fast as you pull the trigger, you do know that, right?
Everything you're spouting is actually legally irrelevant, though.
I'm not sure why you're making up facts while pretending to be knowledgeable about guns, but I'm also not sure why you think "more powerful than a .44 magnum pistol" is a Second Amendment based test anyway.
Well, he’s right that, at the muzzle, a .233 round out of an AR style rifle is marginally more powerful than a .44 magnum round out of a pistol. The short barrel on the pistol wastes most of the energy in the powder, after all, you just get a massive muzzle blast. So it’s marginally more powerful.
Fired with the same length barrel, though, the .44 magnum is about 70% more powerful.
But, yeah, this is legally irrelevant. As the Court itself has noted, you can’t ban guns on the basis of their being dangerous, being dangerous is their POINT.
That said, he has a fair complaint about the line he quoted. It’s based, after all, on the assumption that Delaware’s hunting laws are actually rational, which is a pretty silly assumption.
I would say that a gun that doesn't manage to kill what it is pointed at when fired is definitely either malfunctioning or is incredibly poorly designed.
Wait a minute: published ballistics for .223 are usually from a full-sized rifle (24-inch barrel): the ammo-vendors want to publish the "best" numbers they legitimately can. However, the shorter 16-20-inch barrels of the AR-15 platform reduce the energy 15-20% below that for a full-sized rifle (energy is force times distance, and the distance is the bore-length of the barrel (to oversimplify; a quick net-search for "223 barrel length vs velocity" will give you detailed numbers)).
And incidentally, both the M1 Garand carried by US soldiers in World War II and the 1903 Springfield of World War I are more than three times more powerful than an AR-15...
And yet, among those 3 weapons of war, only the AR-style weapon became so frequently associated with mass murder among civilians that its existence might reasonably be inferred to be causative of such crimes. I will tell you the reason.
The higher power of those two earlier weapons was designed into them not because that much power is necessary to kill a human effectively, but because it was thought necessary to do so at long range. Earlier military theory supposed that infantry effectiveness needed accurate fire at ranges out to 600 yards, or even more. Thus, most of that higher bullet energy was supplied not to kill better, but to assure that enough energy would remain to kill effectively even after air resistance over a long trajectory had scrubbed away most of the initial energy at the muzzle.
Given that high bullet velocity is necessary to assure accurate shooting at long ranges (where increased time in flight increases bullet drop, and thus complicates aiming, making it necessary to minimize the effect of range estimation errors) only heavier bullets would serve to deliver ballistic efficiency sufficient for flat trajectory at long range. Thus, only designs which imparted high velocity to a relatively heavy bullet would serve the previous military goal to enable lethal remnant energy to be delivered accurately to a far-away target.
Weapons designed to serve that purpose have notable drawbacks, which are unavoidable. First, they deliver punishing recoil. Typical shooters cannot learn to shoot such weapons accurately without flinching as they fire. To reduce that problem somewhat, the weapon can be made heavier, which makes it fatiguing to carry. To carry a large supply of the necessary bullets is difficult, because they are relatively bulky and heavy. They are also expensive, which matters less to the military, but more to civilians who have to pay for their own practice shooting.
After long experience, military thinkers concluded that to serve the need to kill large numbers of enemy efficiently, the disadvantages of the former formula had been too little considered. They noticed that much smaller bullets fired at similarly high velocities would retain at 100–200 yards killing energy at least comparable to what the former designs delivered at their intended longer ranges. Also, smaller bullets with lighter recoil were better suited to fully automatic fire. And such weapons could be made lighter to carry, with comparably improved capacity to carry more ammunition. With more bullets to carry and shoot, it became useful to supply larger interchangeable magazines, which enabled a notable increase in the rate of fire which could be sustained without interruption during combat.
On balance, it was decided that sacrifice of extreme long range capacity was more than justified to get so many other advantages to increase lethal efficiency in other situations. Experience also showed it was far easier to accustom ordinary recruits to use and fire a lighter-weight, lighter-recoil weapon.
Change the frame of reference to mass murders of civilians by civilian criminals, and you can see that essentially all the changes in design turn out to have favored a notable increase in lethality. That both attracted and newly enabled a class of civilian criminals—random mass murderers who previously lacked a tool commensurate with their limited abilities and monstrous purposes.
Of course, for school shootings, long range scarcely matters. But make it a point to notice that the Las Vegas mass shooter using .223 ammunition succeeded in killing at more than 500 yards 50+ victims, and wounding hundreds.
Listen to the gun apologists who post here, and they will tell you that the remnant energy of < 300 foot-pounds at that 500-yard range would be insufficient to hunt rabbits. Which ought to teach that it makes far more sense to pay attention to what has actually happened in response to these changes in gun design, than to listen to gun pedants who never credit experience at all.
Experience teaches that it was a decision to use existing features of gun design in a new combination—intended only to increase the military lethality which an ordinary recruit could achieve—which delivered the unexpected and horrific side-effect of empowering mass civilian murderers.
Not just an AR style rifle. The same applies to all rifles using center fire ammo.
He's using bullshit facts to justify his argument.
Yes. A .223 is more powerful than a .44 when it comes to theoretical Kinetic Energy. It's when it comes to Energy Transference that there's a difference. A .223 tends to go through a deer, not transferring enough of it's energy to knock it down. A .44 transfers it's energy to the deer causing more damage and knocking the animal down. One of the original arguments for the military to go to The .223 (or 5.56mm) round was that it was a "wounding" round not a killing round.
Nieporent, what facts do you think I made up? How much game have you killed with a gun? How much time have you spent carrying a gun with intention to use it momentarily to kill something? Have you ever been at the scene of murder or mayhem committed by gunshots? Have you ever numbered gunshot victims among your family, friends, or acquaintances? Have you ever been shot at yourself? Do you have close friends or family who served in combat, and have you talked with them about what they saw and did? Do you know how the U.S. military manages guns, and why? Where is your comment coming from?
Yes, and how can you judge a horse race if you aren’t a horse?
"Delaware plagiarized California's 1989 findings . . . . "
You'd think a lawyer/law professor would know what 'plagiarized' means.
But no, laws don't matter to political hacks.
We'll have to take your authority as the proof of the last assertion, but what does that have to do with the topic? There is no law against plagiarizing legislative findings of fact, especially not in other legislation. Maybe there should be, especially when those findings are factually wrong, but there is not currently.
But no, laws don’t matter to political hacks.
Yeah, just ask the Governor of Delaware.
A 223 remington and a 44 magnum do indeed have similar kinetic energies. However, the mass of the 44 magnum round provides much deeper penetration as compared to the lightweight 223. Killing a large bear with a 44 magnum can be done. Trying to intentionally kill a large bear with a 223 remington is virtually suicide. There is alot more to lethality than energy alone.
I beg to differ. Penetration is directly proportional to velocity, which the .223 has over the .44 Mag. But, the .44 delivers more energy to the target, and that's what makes it more effective on bear.
First of all, kinetic energy is directly proportional to mass and the square of velocity. Second, penetration is more related to the amount of expansion and the surface area of impact. A smaller diameter round that doesn't expand and has a narrower point will penetrate farther for the same velocity and kinetic energy as a larger round which expands on impact. No relation to velocity.
Apparently I can't link to Shooting Illustrated's article Ballistic Effectiveness: Which Handgun Caliber Wins? But check out Table 2 if you want to see that neither kinetic energy nor velocity alone correlate with penetration depth.
Well, yes, there are a million factors, but all other things being equal, penetration is about velocity. Of course, comparing 5.56 55 grain ball to a lead or semi-jacketed .44 mag bullet is an apples to oranges thing.
"All other things equal" ... Sorry, but your logic is silly.
"All other things equal" penetration is about mass.
"All other things equal" penetration is about expansive properties.
"All other things equal" penetration is about density of object struck.
Etc etc.
Velocity is not a primary factor in penetration. As I said, go look at Table 2 of the article I mentioned above (it's an image, so I can't just copy/paste it, otherwise I would). There is no correlation between kinetic energy/velocity and penetration.
I decided to toss it in Excel to sort it by penetration and paste it here. I’m sure the formatting will be amazing.
Num Vel Eng Pen
6 1081 467 14.25
8 1117 457 14.5
1 897 411 15
2 723 267 15
5 1066 371 15
13 1068 314 15
15 1273 414 15
3 1194 443 15.75
10 855 373 16.25
4 807 231 16.5
7 1158 342 16.75
11 957 366 16.75
12 1419 559 17.25
14 955 405 17.25
9 1284 421 17.75
Notice that the velocity and energy number have no noticeable trend related to penetration depth. The round type can be found at the article I cited above.
So you're saying any penetration isn't sufficient??
You shoot a really fat guy in the gut with Glasser safety slugs, (What my home defense gun is loaded with, the first three rounds, anyway. After that it's solid rounds for penetration.) and there's a good chance all you'll blow away is fat.
Which, don't get me wrong, they won't like, but it won't get the job done.
Whole lot of infringin' goin on.
I shoot, alot. Though I'm not a ballistician I am a physicist and I experiment with shooting, alot. I will tell you most 223 rem loads will not penetrate much beyond 2 feet of gel or flesh. Most 223 loads won't do that. The old 45-70 load invented in 1873 had a 405 grain cast lead bullet at about 1350 fps. Nothing fancy by today's standards yet it is still popular and effective even on dangerous game. That load will exit many feet of gel and will penetrate animals, even large ones, all the way through. I understand the math of penetration. I also know what real world experiments show. M I'm not a lawyer. I come here to learn that and never post. But I can't let such a comparison between the 223 and 44 go unanswered.
Any energy the round still has by the time it exits is wasted anyway, you actually want to deposit all the energy in the animal. 2 feet of penetration is plenty if you're not hunting elephants.
But the whole premise for why he brought it up is backwards: The whole point of guns is to be dangerous, you can't ban them on the basis that they're useful for their very purpose!
You'd actually have a better constitutional basis for banning BB guns than .223 rifles, for that reason.
Or 1967 Oldsmobiles, deadly in the (drunken) hands of certain Dead Senator Kennedys
It's all out resistance to Bruen at this point, not much room left to escalate short of civil war if things like this actually pass.
An Act Modernizing Firearms Laws
Mandatory gun, magazine, and ammo registration
Gun rights totally abolished until age 21
Applies to anyone even traveling through the state.
Have to keep your license on you and show it if asked even if not carrying a gun at the time.
It goes on and on. Basically this bill is aggressively in violation of Bruen.
This is coming from the same side that argued for decarceration and defunding the police.
They're basically taunting SCOTUS, knowing that Kavanagh and Roberts don't have the balls to actually stop it.
No, both these laws are such an upraised finger to the Court that there's no way they don't strike them down.
I think, rather, the objective is to build enough fanatical support for Court packing on the left, that the next time the Democrats have the White House and even the most threadbare majority they'll have to pack the Court.
To that end they're going to keep throwing blatantly unconstitutional laws out there that the left love, to be slapped down, With each one, the mad dogs on the left with froth a bit harder, and, ideally, eventually they'll be so furious the Democratic establishment won't dare not give them what they want.
Scalia Doctrine—if a Supreme Court decision is wrong like Roe or Heller then state and municipal governments should push back against the ruling and try to get it overturned.
And here's an excellent example: Oregon's BM 114 was just upheld as well, in a giant FU to any pretense at respecting Bruen or Heller.
It blows off gun experts as "biased" and gives them "little weight" because they have "financial interests" in guns/magazines, but gives great respect to anti-gun 'experts' that were had built careers on gun control, or were even employed by gun control organizations.
It requires that gun owners first prove that their conduct is protected by 2A before then asking the government to justify their regulations.
It declares that magazines didn't exist in 1791, because they were called other things - "accouterments", not "arms" - and therefore were not subject to 2A protection on 'arms'. Then it declares that large magazines are not in common use (based on excluding 'anecdotal' evidence by gun experts, but including 'expert analysis' by anti-gun activists). In fact, it explicitly rejects industry reports, by explaining that it cannot be certain which industry members included what in the report, therefore the entire thing must be 100% ignored.
But then it gets worse: it creates an entire section titled "Common use alone is insufficient to establish Second Amendment Protection".
When reviewing the absence of laws restricting magazine sizes, it actually states "It would be a mistake to treat this absence of evidence as evidence of BM 114’s unconstitutionality."
And, wow, it keeps going.
Finally, try not to die laughing: "Interpersonal gun violence was not a general societal concern in 1791."
Here's the despicable female judge who made the ruling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karin_Immergut
I hope she gets a tumor in her ovaries.
Georgia's Supreme Court held: "Free persons of color have never been recognized here as citizens; they are not entitled to bear arms, vote for members of the legislature, or to hold any civil office."
That’s how Democrat elites view half the country today. They don’t think we should be allowed to be armed, they turned voting into a farce with phony ballots, and they arrest people running for office.
Exactly. They want us dead.
I doubt a 3 judge panel even on the 9th would uphold it, at least not her reasoning.
Benitez will probably create an intra-circuit split with Duncan V Bonta, and Miller V Bonta which are back in his court on remand. He used the 2 part intermediate scrutiny test to still find that the state hadn't met it's burdon to bam LCMs or Assault weapons.
It will be interesting so see if the 9th finally waves the white flag and quits en bancing any cases upholding gun rights.
The District Court Judge in Oregon is a Trump appointee, I guess you can't bat 100% on everything, especially district court judges.
Republican judges often vote as statists. Leftist judges always do. You never get a surprise from a Democrat judge, like ruling that there isn't a right to kill a 38 week old fetus or bust in another man's rear.