The Volokh Conspiracy
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Just The Facts, Ma'am
The importance of the trial records in Students for Fair Admissions and 303 Creative
Bench trials were held in both the Harvard and UNC cases. And both district court judges made extensive findings concerning how the universities used race in admissions. Did those findings matter to the Supreme Court? Probably not. In Students for Fair Admissions, Justice Sotomayor claims that the majority disregarded the findings of the trial court judges, and substituted its own facts.
The Court ignores these careful findings and concludes that Harvard engages in racial balancing because its "focus on numbers is obvious." Ante, at 31. Because SFFA failed to offer an expert and to prove its claim below, the majority is forced to reconstruct the record and conduct its own factual analysis. It thus relies on a single chart from SFFA's brief that truncates relevant data in the record. Compare ibid. (citing Brief for Petitioner in No. 20–1199, p. 23) with 4 App. in No. 20–1199, p. 1770. That chart cannot displace the careful factfinding by the District Court, which the First Circuit upheld on appeal under clear error review.
Justice Jackson made similar claims:
The majority cannot deny this factual finding. Instead, it conducts its own back-of-the-envelope calculations (its numbers appear nowhere in the District Court's opinion) regarding "the overall acceptance rates of academically excellent applicants to UNC," in an effort to trivialize the District Court's conclusion. I am inclined to stick with the District Court's findings over the majority's unauthenticated calculations.
Meanwhile, in 303 Creative, the web site designer and the state reached a series of factual stipulations. For example, the parties stipulated that Smith's web sites are "expressive" and Smith would create websites for gay and lesbian clients, so long as those web sites do not violate her beliefs. Did these facts matter to the majority? Yes, as it allowed the Court to skirt certain difficult questions about what types of speech are expressive. Justice Gorsuch's majority opinion relied extensively on those stipulations.
The Tenth Circuit held that the wedding websites Ms. Smith seeks to create qualify as "pure speech" under this Court's precedents. We agree. It is a conclusion that flows directly from the parties' stipulations. They have stipulated that Ms. Smith's websites promise to contain "images, words, symbols, and other modes of expression." They have stipulated that every website will be her "original, customized" creation. Id.. And they have stipulated that Ms. Smith will create these websites to communicate ideas—namely, to "celebrate and promote the couple's wedding and unique love story" and to "celebrat[e] and promot[e]" what Ms. Smith understands to be a true marriage.
In dissent, Justice Sotomayor downplays those stipulations. Indeed, the word "stipulation" appears nowhere in her opinion. Justice Gorsuch explains in his majority opinion:
When the dissent finally gets around to that question—more than halfway into its opinion—it reimagines the facts of this case from top to bottom. The dissent claims that Colorado wishes to regulate Ms. Smith's "conduct," not her speech. Forget Colorado's stipulation that Ms. Smith's activities are "expressive," App. to, and the Tenth Circuit's conclusion that the State seeks to compel "pure speech." The dissent chides us for deciding a pre-enforcement challenge. But it ignores the Tenth Circuit's finding that Ms. Smith faces a credible threat of sanctions unless she conforms her views to the State's. The dissent suggests (over and over again) that any burden on speech here is "incidental." All despite the Tenth Circuit's finding that Colorado intends to force Ms. Smith to convey a message she does not believe with the "very purpose" of "[e]liminating . . . ideas" that differ from its own.
When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. Otherwise, pound the table.
Just the facts, ma'am.
Fun fact: on the original Dragnet TV series, Joe Friday (played by Jack Webb) never actually said "Just the facts, ma'am," but that phrase has seeped into pop culture. It also appeared in the 1987 film starring Dan Aykroyd and Tom Hanks. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, you never watched Nick-at-night.
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The man who the lawsuit said had emailed 303 Creative requesting a website for a gay marriage has surfaced and says he isn’t gay, has been married for 15 years, never contacted 303 Creative, and has nothing to do with this lawsuit.
And how long has this case been working its way through the courts? Why does that show up just now?
Its not uncommon to have people confess to crimes they didnt commit. Etc.
I'm of the opinion that any lawyer who pushes that scam should be disbarred
And any attempt to push it on Social Media should be treated like teh misinformation and disinformation that it is, and be driven off teh way the hunter Biden laptop story was driven off before the election
Except in this case, the driving off would be valid.
1: The fact that some dishonest left wing weasel chose to send false information to Lorie Smith after her case got publicity is not a mark against Lorie Smith
2: That claim had NO impact on the case. At all. Of any sort. As is known by anyone who actually bothers to read teh case, or teh 10th Circuit opinion
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/22pdf/21-476_c185.pdf
https://casetext.com/case/303-creative-llc-v-elenis-3
Search for "B. Standing"
Then start reading. you can read, can't you?
Let us know when you find something about that "submission"
And Greg J proves he's just as stupid and dishonest as ever. Nobody knows what happened. We don't know if Lorie Smith made this up; if one of her lawyers did; if some random paralegal in her lawyers' office overheard the lawyers saying to each other, "You know, this case would be stronger if we had a customer's inquiry" and deciding to be "helpful"; if "Steve" sent it and is now lying about it; if some rando off the street did it for nefarious or mischevious reasons ("hey, I'm going to prank my friend Steve by pretending he wants a gay wedding"). We have no idea. But the left has decided that Lorie Smith must have perjured herself, and Greg J has now decided that some "dishonest left wing weasel" did it. All with no evidence.
If we are just dealing with the facts then this lawsuit should never have been heard because the website designer lacked standing. Ms Smith had NEVER been asked to design a 'gay wedding' website
It wasn't the basis for standing so why is everyone bringing it up?
It's almost like there's a concerted effort to undermine the legitimacy of the court using whatever fake arguments you think suckers will fall for.
See also pretending the AA case was controversial when a majority of Americans support it, gaslighting people into forgetting that the original Democrat position on student loans was that you can't be too hard on old Joe for not doing anything because he obviously doesn't have the power to do blanket forgiveness, telling people that the Supreme court said gay people can now be denied service at restaurants or any business, etc.
None of these decisions should have been particularly controversial or surprising.
Calliope 1 hour ago
"None of these decisions should have been particularly controversial or surprising."
Exactly - The opinion should have been 9-0, the 3 dissenters displayed a lack of fidelity to the constitution
Lack of standing is something the court is allowed (required, even) to bring up spontaneously even if none of the parties do. The fact that it isn't even mentioned in the dissent tells me something about the likely strength of your argument.
Sigh. What does the phrase "pre-enforcement challenge" mean to you?
Facts do matter.
Grutter - CA6 pulled the de novo stunt when the findings of fact at the trial court showed a quota
Harvard - the quota was similar to Grutter, as detailed in the exhibits, yet somehow the trial court ignored the inconvenient fact.
Harvard - KBJ - got bamboozeled by junk science level math when she cited the brief from the association of american medical colleges when she noted the differences in survival rates of black babies with black doctors vs white doctors.
Harvard - KBJ mischaracterized the reconstruction era laws benefiting former slaves.
Yes facts matter especially when the facts have to be distorted in order to reach a position not supported by the constitution.
"Harvard – KBJ – got bamboozeled by junk science level math when she cited the brief from the association of american medical colleges when she noted the differences in survival rates of black babies with black doctors vs white doctors."
A quick question, since I have not seen her comment or the AAMC brief: what was the junk science level math there?
"First, the study does not claim to find a doubling in survival rates for black newborns who have a black attending doctor. Instead, in its most fully specified model, it reports that 99.6839% of black babies born with a black attending physician survived compared with 99.5549% of black babies born with white attending physicians, a difference of 0.129%.
The survival rate of 99.6839% is not double 99.5549%."
https://libertyunyielding.com/2023/07/02/progressive-supreme-court-justices-advocate-endless-use-of-race-in-college-admissions-based-on-false-claims-about-racial-gaps/
Thanks -- I see where the confusion is. The PNAS study found that the mortality rate of Black newborns with white physicians was twice the morality rate of Black newborns with Black physicians, and the AAMC amicus brief misunderstood that to imply the same about the survival rates.... The actual finding is still a statistically significant difference in mortality rates, however, and perhaps the lesson is not to let lawyers make statements about statistics!
Dtaylor - "The actual finding is still a statistically significant difference in mortality rates, however, and perhaps the lesson is not to let lawyers make statements about statistics!"
0.12% is not statistically significant, especially when accounting for other factors. ZZtop above provided a link which explains many of the reasons that using that stat is highly deceptive
You're appealing to 'number smol.' Come one. I'm no dab hand at stats, but you're going to need more than that to go against the scientific paper.
Papers have been wrongheaded before, but you need to meet science with science, not rhetoric.
The PNAS study apparently missed that black babies with white doctors were more likely to be in the NICU, what fact fully explained their higher death rate.
It's much easier to make things "statistically significant" when
1: You look at multiple possibilities, but still use 0.05 as your cutoff (cutoff should be 0.05 / number of pre-registered conditions you looked at)
2: You ignore confounding factors, like "did kid get put in the natal ICU?"
Is it startically significant?
Dtaylor - Junkscience was probably the incorrect term since it wasnt a study, though AAMC made a blatantly obvious false claim about the death rates of babies based on the race of the doctor. That false claim was repeated by KBJ as evidence in support of affirmative action/race discrimination.
"When the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If the law is on your side, argue the law. Otherwise, pound the table."
Or, as stated by Lucy in Peanuts; "if you can't be right, be wrong at the top of your voice".
You do know that a lot of people are still around who watched Dragnet on ordinary broadcast TV, right?
The original run or one of the remakes/revivals?
I grew up on the ’60s color revival with Harry Morgan who provided some badly needed comic relief, as various moral points were sledgehammered home.
However some years later I heard an old radio broadcast on NPR with a friend of mine. We listened for kicks, about to jump into bed. But the episode was such a tender, nuanced story of a confused old lady who had been arrested for pulling a false alarm that it killed the mood.
I'm old enough I could have watched the late 60s revival on original broadcast, but didn't. I did see the Aykroyd/Hanks movie in a theater, but without that I still would have gotten the line "Just the fax, ma'am" in Die Hard 2.
Good movie. Tailor made for Dan Aykroyd, the glue that held the original SNL together. And a strangely gratifying respect for the character.
When, in that final scene, that strange glance revealed that he had deflowered Connie, the audience cheered.
The 67-70 revival, and it's later syndication.
Bench trials were held in both the Harvard and UNC cases. And both district court judges made extensive findings concerning how the universities used race in admissions. Did those findings matter to the Supreme Court? Probably not.
Well, since there conclusions were pretty much obviously divorced form the facts presented, that was the proper result.
Harvard gave every applicant two personality scores. One made by the person who interviewed them. Another by an Admissions official who never met the person. SFFA found that "Asian" applicants had scores from the Admission official who never met the applicant that averaged one full point lower than their "in person" score, as compared to everyone else.
Now, if you're not an anti-Asian bigot, and you're not a desperate racist lover of AA, that pretty much obviously shows you that Harvard is a racist school that is using that bigoted stereotype to keep Asian students out.
The District Court judge found that difference unexceptional. Which simply showed that nothing from that judge was worth anything
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/16/admissions-suit-arguments/
“When it comes to the score assigned by the Admissions Office, Asian-American applicants are assigned the lowest scores of any racial group,” the organization’s lawyers wrote. “By contrast, alumni interviewers (who actually meet the applicants) rate Asian Americans, on average, at the top with respect to personal ratings—comparable to white applicants and higher than African-American and Hispanic applicants.”
Actually found in Dragnet episodes:
“All we want are the facts, ma’am”
“All we know are the facts, ma’am.”
And on a nother note: usual movie version of Yamato's Pearl Harbor quote is a Cliff Notes version:
"I fear we have but awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve" (as the sun sets on 7 Dec 1941)
Yamamoto wrote a friend in early 1942 some time after the raid:
"A military man can scarcely pride himself on having 'smitten a sleeping enemy'; it is more a matter of shame, simply, for the one smitten. I would rather you made your appraisal after seeing what the enemy does, since it is certain that, angered and outraged, he will soon launch a determined counterattack."