The Volokh Conspiracy
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How to Read 303 Creative v. Elenis
The speech compulsion it forbids is not limited to wedding-website designers who object to same-sex marriage, but its principles should apply only to a narrow range of commercial products
On Friday, the Supreme Court ruled in 303 Creative v. Elenis that Colorado cannot force a website designer to create messages celebrating same-sex marriages. Eugene and I joined others in an amicus brief arguing that this potential application of a state public accommodations law would be an unconstitutional speech compulsion. As Eugene has already noted, the Supreme Court agreed.
I read Justice Gorsuch's decision as broader in some respects than some may hope it is. It can't reasonably be cabined to all of its specific facts. The rationale for the vendor's message-based objection--religious or not, internally consistent or not, odious or not--does not matter. Op. at 24-25. Nor, in principle, are the speech protections the Court outlined limited to the creation of messages about same-sex marriage, marriage in general, or homosexuality.
On the other hand, the decision is also narrower in important ways than some progressives fear or some religious conservatives/libertarians may hope. I read 303 Creative to hold that a vendor cannot be compelled by the government:
(1) to create customized and expressive products (whether goods or services) that constitute the vendor's own expression (op. at 9, 16);
(2) where the vendor's objection is to the message contained in the product itself, not to the identity or status of the customer (op. at 18 n. 3, 20).
Consider each part of this:
I. The product must be customized and expressive
The Court repeatedly emphasized the unusual nature of the product Lorrie Smith, the website designer, proposed to sell: working closely with each individual customer to tailor specific and original messages by using Smith's own words and designs. Very few businesses take on such individualized commissions. She was not selling grilled cheese sandwiches at a lunch counter. Because of the requirements of customization and expressiveness, there will be no claim for the "vast array of businesses" selling "innumerable goods and services." Op. at 14.
First, almost all of the products we buy are neither customized nor expressive. From dairy to desks to dry cleaning, they are what the Court calls "ordinary commercial products."
Second, most customized products are not expressive. Think of the Ford F150, which has literally millions of option combinations. Or a Whopper, which was once promoted with the tagline, "Have it your way," indicating Burger King's willingness to tailor the burger to customers' taste preferences. There will be no claim for businesses selling these kinds of products.
Of course, this analysis does not answer all questions on the margins. The biggest of these will be: what sorts of customized products count as expressive? (Given Colorado's stipulations and the nature of the proposed services for wedding website design, product expressiveness wasn't a close question in 303 Creative. Op. at 21-22).
Line-drawing itself is not a new problem in free speech cases. In particular, the Court has developed doctrines to distinguish what is protected speech from what is unprotected conduct. That test combines elements that are both subjective (the speaker's own intention to communicate a message) and objective (the onlooker's perception whether the message has actually been communicated). Under this test, conduct is sometimes expressive but most often not. What's new after 303 Creative is that courts will now need to apply similar principles to commercial products.
There is a risk that some lower courts will be too aggressive in constitutionally exempting non-expressive commercial products from anti-discrimination rules. That result would not only be harmful to the dignitary and material interests of buyers, but it would ultimately discredit and undermine the genuine First Amendment interests of speech creators.
Eugene and I have offered some guidelines for distinguishing expressive from non-expressive products in prior briefs (see, e.g. our amicus brief here at pp. 5-14, explaining in Masterpiece Cakeshop why cake-making is not generally expressive). Some kinds of products will be clearly expressive, and others will be expressive on the margins, but the vast majority won't be expressive. There will be hard and intensely fact-bound judgments to make, based on what has historically counted as expressive (e.g. parades, books, paintings, and films) and based on the use of intrinsically or inherently expressive elements in the work (e.g., speaking, writing, and deploying symbols). The mere fact that the vendor subjectively regards the product as "art" that expresses some message would not be enough to trigger First Amendment protection. A limousine driver may think he turns corners with a distinctive flair, but his craft is neither historically nor intrinsically expressive. A Subway "sandwich artist" might be creating something worthwhile, but it's not speech.
Before Friday, the answer of some scholars and organizations like the ACLU was that none of this matters because when you're selling things in the public marketplace you basically have no First Amendment rights. Your choices were to quit your trade or come to heel. 303 Creative is clear that this answer will no longer suffice. It never really did. Op. at 16-17, 23.
Third, most expressive products are not customized. Think of a store that sells paintings or sheet music or books. Lots of protected expression goes into these products, but they're not created according to the demands or preferences of the particular customer. Since the artist or composer or writer has already created the product, the state has not compelled their creation. Refusing to sell these expressive products to protected classes of customers amounts to illegal status- or identity-based discrimination, which is not protected by the First Amendment. In general, if it's already on the shelf (physically or online) you have to sell it to all comers.
Here, too, there will be some cases at the margins of both customization and expression. As the dissent acknowledged, portrait photography is a generally expressive medium. Sotomayor dissent at 28. But even in this presumptively constitutionally protected context, some settings are more like an F150 assembly line than Annie Leibovitz's studio. I don't think a photographer offering to take standard school photos, corporate headshots, passport photos, or pictures with a mall Santa truly customizes the product or expresses something to a degree that warrants constitutional protection. Such a claim would trivialize free speech protection in the way that the Court in Rumsfeld v. FAIR thought the law schools' objections to sending emails about military-recruiter meeting times and locations did.
A wedding photographer, on the other hand, does offer highly customized and expressive services, working closely with each customer to depict the wedding in a certain way. (Cato, Eugene, and I first made this argument a decade ago in an amicus brief supporting certiorari in Elane Photograhy LLC v. Willock. The Court denied cert.)
Similarly, a website designer who offers a preset menu of plug-and-play options for customers to create their own wedding websites is offering a product customized mainly by the buyer, not the designer. It's the customer's speech, not the vendor's.
By contrast, a website designer like Smith who consults with customers to compose original written messages and creative graphics is herself customizing the product. The product is collaborative. And while it's certainly the couple's expression, it's also importantly the designer's.
II. The objection must be to the message in the product, not the customer's status
The vendor's objection also has to be to the message contained in the product, not to the status or identity of the customer. Businesses can't claim constitutional protection for a categorical rule that they won't sell commissioned products to gays, Jews, Blacks, or women. And of course they will not get a free-speech exemption from employing, insuring, housing, medically treating, or serving any particular class of people. 303 Creative reaffirms the cardinal rule that the First Amendment does not shield these acts of status-based discrimination.
There will be questions about whether the message-based objection is tantamount to a status-based one and therefore unprotected. Take this very case. As a matter of statute, Colorado regards discrimination based on opposition to same-sex marriage as a form of anti-gay discrimination in the same way that a ban of wearing yarmulkes is a form of discrimination against Jews. That seems justifiable in most regulatory and anti-discrimination contexts. For example, an employer who fires a worker because she's in a same-sex marriage has fired the worker based on her sexual orientation. State bans on same-sex marriage or denials of benefits to married same-sex couples similarly constitute sexual orientation discrimination.
But the federal government's argument that as a matter of constitutional law objections to same-sex marriages are necessarily status-based--equivalent to objections to gay people--won't fly for the compelled creation of expressive products. That's because, unlike in the regulatory context or where non-expressive discrimination occurs, the protected expression of another person is at stake "about a matter of major significance." Op. at 25. Massachusetts in Hurley and New Jersey in Dale were similarly free to treat privately organized parades and membership groups, respectively, as "public accommodations" for purposes of state law but those statutory applications could not prevail over First Amendment rights.
The New York Times print-edition headline on Saturday, "Website Designer Wins Right to Turn Away Gay People," was therefore misleading. (The online headline was more accurate.) The Court explicitly rejected the dissent's contention that it was permitting vendors to refuse service to classes of people. Here the vendor only refused to create a message.
Taken together, I think the 303 Creative requirements for a successful speech claim (message-based objections to creating customized and expressive products) also mean that the business' objection must be based on expression contained in the product itself. It will not suffice to say that the very fact of the sale alone sends a message the vendor does not want to send. For example, a baker could not refuse to sell a gay couple a premade wedding cake sitting in a display case on the grounds that the sale signals approval of their marriage.
It will also not suffice that the vendor objects simply to the purpose or occasion for which the customer intends to use a product. If a transgender person wants to buy pink and blue streamers to celebrate their gender transition, the business can't refuse to sell the streamers based solely on the purpose for the use. Unlike the wedding websites in 303 Creative (op. at 5), the ultimate use and configuration of the streamers in the customer's home would not likely be understood by others as the vendor's speech or even as a collaboration between the vendor and customer.
In other words, as I read the Court's opinion, it has not approved protection for unadorned complicity objections, i.e., claims that any connection to, or facilitation of, an objectionable act or message is constitutionally shielded from legal compulsion.
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Thank you for this post. It presents a balanced and honest review of the opinion.
The one area I do not agree with you and Professor Volokh is cake baking. Custom cakes, such as were at issue in Masterpiece Cakeshop, are primarily expressive. A great deal of artistic effort, including consultation with the couple, goes into them. And the customers spend a lot of money on their creation when they could buy a generic model from a bakery for a fraction of the price. That the resulting art is also edible (one hopes!) is not a reason to exempt it from the First Amendment.
I do not think most wedding cakes — custom or otherwise — are primarily expressive. (And to be clear, the issue in Masterpiece was not a custom cake. The gay customers never got to the point of discussing with Jack Phillips what they wanted; the moment he heard that they wanted a
gay wedding cakecake for a gay wedding, he turned them away.)Because it's readily and obviously understood what the process is that follows the request from a cake shop to create a wedding cake.
In the SECOND case against Masterpiece Cakeshop, here were the facts:
https://www.cpr.org/2021/06/17/masterpiece-cakeshop-transgender-discrimination-lawsuit/
How is that not "expressive?" She specifically wants a pink cake with blue frosting to celebrate her "gender transition." If that's not expressive of a message, then I am Mao Tse Tung.
It's expressive to her.
Had she not explained the reasoning, the cake would've been made as requested.
If I order a vanilla cake with chocolate frosting, is it because I like those flavors, or because I'm celebrating a mixed-race wedding/birth/etc? Maybe I'm celebrating the invention of an Oreo cookie?
Should your right to refuse service hinge on whether I explain my reason to your satisfaction? No.
The cake is expressive to the customer, not to the baker. It wasn't a problem until the baker decided that he didn't like what they were celebrating.
Not so sure of that.
“I want a cake with a mini section of the Vietnam war memorial on top.”
“Sure, how touching.”
“It’s ’cause I wanna commemorate the joy at US deaths.”
“I don’t think so.”
This is a stupid example, but explaining there is a message means there is a message, even if people don’t recognize it at first.
That they might have "gotten away with it" had they kept their mouths shut is beside the point.
Gotten away with it? At least in the real case (as opposed to the Vietnam hypo) they didn't want to "get away with it." They wanted a pretext to go after Phillips.
That's right, David:
Making something custom FOR AN EVENT is both "custom", and "expressive".
Because it says you approve of the event.
Since Jack Phillips doesn't approve of that event, and has a First Amendment right not to approve of that event, that means he doesn't have to make anything for the event.
If you want to buy something non-custom for your event, then it doesn't matter whether or not Jack approves of it, he'll still sell it to you.
Which was stated in the original case.
But you hate-filled bigots just can't accept that anyone who disagrees with you should be allowed any free speech rights.
Which is what this is all about
I’m hoping Dale convinced you that:
And thus, Smith discriminated on the basis of sexual orientation (in addition to sex, per Bostock). With that hope in hand, I am fully persuaded by Dale’s further comment:
This was a case of both discrimination against gays and constitutional protection from compelled speech.
Your sentence that begins "and thus" is not one I agree with. Refusing to hire someone who is in a same-sex marriage is tantamount to refusing to hire them because they are gay. There is no expression involved.
Refusing to bake a gay wedding cake, while agreeing to bake a birthday or retirement cake for a gay person, is objection to a message, not a status.
The employer will hire any gay person who has not entered into a same-sex marriage because he disapproves of the message conveyed by same-sex marriages. Is that discrimination against gays?
A marriage is a marriage regardless of gender
If you are opposed to a marriage based on the gender of the people in that marriage then that is sex based discrimination
Why would Dale have “convinced us” that
an employer who fires a worker because she’s in a same-sex marriage has fired the worker based on her sexual orientation ?
He merely asserts it. The actual argument IIRC comes from Bostock, and is based on the ‘but for’ theory. ie spouse is female, so the no same sex marriage prohibition can only apply to you, if you are female too. Ergo you have been fired for being female.
But this application of ‘but for’ does not reveal the actual reason for the discrimination, which is based on a comparison. It takes the sex of the employee’s spouse as part of the furniture and then homes in on your sex as the deciding feature, “but for” which you’d be fine. But in doing so it transmutes the actual discriminating factor, which is the comparative. You being a woman would not be a decisive “but for” if your spouse was male.
The rule is analagous to the rule in fabled times and fabled places whereby your head may not be higher than the King’s. If it is, you get it chopped off. But your head being level with the top of the King’s high chair, wouldn’t get you into trouble…..if the King’s head were not six inches below that level.
To say that you are being executed for having your head level with the top of the King’s chair is sophistry. That is not the reason. Which is that your head is higher than the King’s. If he were standing, so that his head was higher than yours, then you’d be fine. Even though your head is still level with the top of his chair.
The point, obviously, is that in judging a comparative condition, it is necessary to measure each of the items to be compared. But that does not make the measurement of one of the items a logical “but for.” It is only a decisive factor in conjunction with the other item to be compared. The real logical ‘but for’ is the conjunction, not half of it.
Because there is a contracting and time commitment required I've always found it funny that it's speech and not contracting or involuntary servitude.
I don't think that was his point. Perhaps the better way to express it would have been "the vast majority of cakes are not custom and therefore do not contain legally significant amounts of expressive content."
There is some creativity in a sheet cake, but not enough to meet the standards here. As we know, this case was not about a sheet cake with a little flair in the frosting.
"A great deal of artistic effort, including consultation with the couple, goes into them. And the customers spend a lot of money on their creation when they could buy a generic model from a bakery for a fraction of the price."
So what? When "art" gets 1A protection is not judged by its quality, price, or effort that goes into it.
Lots of analysis, but there is so much desire to reach the "right" answer that I expect a divergence of views on freedom of speech like the divergence of views on keeping and bearing arms post Bruen.
"The New York Times print-edition headline on Saturday, "Website Designer Wins Right to Turn Away Gay People," was therefore misleading. (The online headline was more accurate.) The Court explicitly rejected the dissent's contention that it was permitting vendors to refuse service to classes of people. Here the vendor only refused to create a message."
Very important distinction
Smith got permission from the SCOTUS itself to put up a "gays need not apply" sign. Why are you trying to diminish this?
Take the win and celebrate, dude. This kind of sophistry is (A) unbecoming, and (B) not convincing.
You continual dishonesty about facts, large and small, has earned you muting. Get over your bitterness. This decision will have a very minor effect on your group, if at all.
What a sore winner.
Why is "gays need not apply?" not constitutionally protected speech ?
Why would you ask me to defend a claim I haven't made?
Would a sign saying “we break the law” be constitutionally protected speech so long as it’s a joke and you don’t actually break the law?
The constitutionality of anti discrimination laws has been upheld over and over again, so you can’t actually practice discrimination. But whether the First Amendment would allow you to put up a sign claiming you do is a different issue. It would be a bad idea since the sign would be Exhibit A the first time you got sued for discrimination.
The constitutionality of anti discrimination laws is not in question, except to the extent that an anti discrimination law, as applied, may infringe constitutional rights under the 1st Amendment. So if there's no clash, the anti discrimination law goes ahead. But if there's a clash, constitutional rights v statutory rights, the former win and the latter loses. Or should do.
So a law prohibiting discriminatory conduct may be constitutional, but to the extent that it forbids discriminatory speech, then it's unconstitutional.
The question that Dale Carpenter is addressing is when conduct is also speech. He may be parsing the judgment well, I cannot say, but if he is, i don't think the judgement is very logical.
Whether conduct is also speech is a case by case thing. You can't say that refusing to sell to a gay person, because he or she is gay, is never speech. Sometimes it will be, sometimes it won't be. The devil is in the details.
I offer a pair of examples from the excellent UK wartime drama series Foyles War, which I happen to have been watching recently.
In one episode, there's a soldier in a pub, who orders a beer, and the publican refuses to serve him. The publican tells him "You've had enough." The refusal to serve him, of itself, isn't a communication, it's simply conduct. The message is conveyed in the actual words.
In another episode, in another pub, a man orders a beer and the publican refuses. This time the refusal is, of itself, a message. For we soon discover that the man is a conscientious objector, and so regarded as scum by the publican. The refusal to serve him says "You're scum."
Then, the police detective (Mr Foyle) buys a beer and gives it to the conchie. Conduct including speech. Foyle is saying, silently, "I disapprove of the publican refusing to serve you because you're a conchie."
There's no rule you can write that will distinguish all these possibilities. Whether there's speech within some conduct depends on the circumstances.
Depends on the context. If a non-commercial establishment put it up, then it likely would be. Like, for example, if you were organizing a parade to celebrate a Catholic saint, and the state you were in tried to force you to allow gays to march in said parade holding a Pride message.
But if you mean that it is posted next to a Help Wanted sign, then no, because that is part of an offer of employment.
It's speech integral to illegal conduct.
I hope for their own sake that nobody hires you as their attorney. That's clearly protected First Amendment speech even if the designer had been ordered to write the messages.
I'm sorry, you must be confused.
(A) I'm not an attorney, and have never claimed to be one. I don't hate myself enough, and I'm far too honest.
(B) In relation to this case, I haven't said a thing about what is and isn't protected First Amendment speech.
Which is to say, who did you think you were talking to?
The whole point of your message , to hide the fact that you're just posting sour grapes, is the implication him being able to put up an 'offensive' message was part of the win in this case when it was never in threat before during or after.
Has apparently been missed.
Lorie Smith just spent seven years fighting in courts so she can proudly boast her discriminatory intent to the world, and categorically refuse gay people. For Carpenter to take this win and try to downplay it like he is? It's cowardice.
That said?
Offensiveness is incidental, actually. What isn't incidental, is advertising intent to violate a non-discrimination law. Which is why she sued the state of Colorado, because she explicitly wanted to advertise that she was going to violate a non-discrimination law.
So yeah. Her win absolutely includes the sign. It's not "sour grapes" to point this out.
You mean categorically refuse same-sex wedding website designs.
Why are you lying about the facts of the case? She does not want to "categorically" refuse gay people. And if she tries, she will be punished by the state of Colorado. She wants to refuse gay wedding websites.
No; it's just a lie. She does not want a sign that says, "no gay customers." Only "no gay wedding websites."
Yes, only gay people commission gay wedding websites. But gay weddings do not define gay people; the vast majority of things gay people do is not getting married.
Save your breath, DN. When they resort to lies, that's a sign they have lost. The mute button works much better.
I'm not: feel free to scroll down to where I gave a link to AmosArch, it's the ADF (you know, her lawyers) summarizing the case.
If it pleases you, feel free to insert "with regards to her wedding services" anywhere and as often as you want.
It's a distinction without a difference though. Or do you really think any court, ever, would be fooled by "we don't refuse service to Blacks, they just have to order from a smaller menu that only includes fried chicken and watermelon"?
The Supreme Court has also trashed the concept of Legal Standing The fact she wasn't even asked to create a 'gay wedding website' doesn't seem to even matter
And all that said?
That's three-for-three, of you making weird-ass assumptions and responding to those, rather then responding to what I've actually said. I think that means you're out?
Out of curiosity where did you see the part about putting up a 'gays need not apply' sign?
An article a few years ago. This case has been kicking around since 2016 or so. Gorsuch seems to have gotten through his opinion without acknowledging that part of the case history.
Do a search for Creative 303 and limit your searches to before Masterpiece got handed down and you'll find it mentioned in some of the more in-depth articles.
Yeah I can't find any reference to that at all. So do you have a link or did you just want to make the plaintiff more unsympathetic?
Have at: [link]
For reference, those are her lawyers providing a summary to the case.
Key bits:
and
Now personally, I'm skeptical she's sincere. None of the anti-gay bigots in these cases (with or without legal cases) have been willing to put up signs, even when there's no law against it (such as in Texas and Ohio) saying that they'll refuse gay customers. Probably because when their discriminatory intent becomes known they lose the business of straight customers who aren't anti-gay. Even that tool store dropped the explicitly anti-gay sign and chose one that's vague and most people won't realize is about gay people.
So I'm skeptical she's actually going to put up the sign. But she absolutely went to court arguing for such.
So in other words the ‘gays need not apply’ is a red herring you threw out not only to others but to your own mind as hating someone who simply is for freedom of conscience is unsatisfying. So you mentally made the wrongthinker to a more unsympathetic cartoon to more easily engage in a personal hatefest of her to salve your hurt from the Court ruling.
... okay, I'll bite.
What do you think a "red herring" is, such that the phrase is at all relevant here?
I said she went to court so she could publicly announce her discriminatory intentions. You presumably just read the statement, from her own lawyers, where that's an explicit goal.
I mean, whine about tone if you want (though that's a really weird thing to get hung up on), but I just don't see what you've got beyond that.
have been willing to put up signs, even when there’s no law against it (such as in Texas and Ohio) saying that they’ll refuse gay customers.
But she does not refuse to serve gay customers. She refuses to create same sex marriage messaging on her canvas(website) Gay persons will served as long as homosexuality and gay marriage are not part of the design concept.
So three Supreme Court Justices are in favor of forcing a Jewish baker to write 'I love Hitler' if a customer orders it. Interesting.
About fifteen years ago, a 3 year old child whose parents named him "Adolph Hitler" could not get a custom birthday cake with his name on it made by his local supermarket.
https://www.nj.com/news/2008/12/child_named_after_adolf_hitler.html
Which proves the old adage that reality is more bizarre than fiction.
Was the child a protected class?
Because if so, that means everyone must lose their rights in service of his dignity.
Not true at all.
The distinction is "are you rejecting the message?" (always allowed) or "are you rejecting the customer?" (disallowed if based on a protected characteristic in the relevant jurisdiction)
There's a few tests for this.
One, would you sell the "message" to a different customer?
Second, would you sell a different "message" to the same customer?
As applied to your Nazi example, the quesiton becomes would they sell a different custom cake to the Nazi customer, and would they sell the Nazi cake to a different non-Nazi customer? If the answers are (respectively) yes and no, then they're golden.
And that's assuming this is in a state where political ideology is part of the state's non-discrimination laws, of course.
To tie this in to Jack Phillips, his problem is that he would sell wedding cakes to other customers, and that there was no wedding cake that he would sell to the gay couple.
So the question became: is the cake itself a message regardless of actual, you know, message on it (in which case Phillips is golden)?
And that question remains unresolved, because like Carpenter, the SCOTUS back then was full of cowards who decided to punt rather then answer.
All of which is to say... refusing the message is always allowed. Refusing a customer on the basis of their inclusion in a protected class (real or perceived) is the problem.
Or, in lawyer terms... attack the argument, not the person.
If a gay man and a lesbian woman came in and asked Jack to make them a cake for their natural wedding. Would he make it?
If a straight man and a straight man came in and asked Jack to make a cake for their same-sex wedding. Would he make it?
Events are not protected classes.
"To tie this in to Jack Phillips, his problem is that he would sell wedding cakes to other customers, and that there was no wedding cake that he would sell to the gay couple."
But that's not the same thing as your hypo. You're talking in the hypo about selling any cake versus selling a Hitler cake. But then once you move to Phillips, you restrict yourself to wedding cakes. Wedding cakes have an inherent message of "celebrate this marriage," the same way birthday cakes have an inherent message of "celebrate this birthday." It doesn't have to be written in icing to be a message. The proper correlation to your hypo is, Would Phillips sell a cake for a gay wedding to a straight person (say the parents of one groom ordered it), and would Phillips sell a non-wedding cake (birthday, retirement, Arbor Day) to a gay person?
So, did you just not finish reading?
The inherent-messageness of a wedding cake was debated at SCOTUS, and left unsettled. Which I explicitly said a few paragraphs past where I pivoted to Phillips.
If you don't like it, blame Kennedy; I didn't argue or decide the case.
"Not saying things that aren't true just because EscherEnigma wants them to be true" is not the normal definition of cowardice. (Nor is judicial minimalism.)
I think the record will show that it's far more then just me that called that decision an act of cowardice. Quite a lot of people, on all sides, were unhappy with the SCOTUS's punt.
Which is to say... it's not about me. It's about SCOTUS refusing to do it's damn job.
Three Supreme Court justices, plus the 2016 Libertarian Party presidential candidate:
(source)
For example, a baker could not refuse to sell a gay couple a premade wedding cake sitting in a display case on the grounds that the sale signals approval of their marriage.
Most bakers do not just have wedding cakes sitting around waiting to be purchased. They are generally made to order. Often, there is only minimal creativity -- pick the flavors and decorations -- to a very generic wedding cake. Other times, a great deal of artistry goes into it.
They may have a "cake" in the window much as a tv commercial featuring a perishable product has the actual product under production circumstances featured. Actually serving either would be bad.
It's funny the loops leftist progressives go into tobreinstitutionalize slavery, even in fractional form.
Can Donald Trump pick a song from an artist, pay the royalty, and use the song for his campaign theme? Does the artist have the power do put a stop to DJT?
The owner of the song has the power to do so under Copyright law. I believe some artists have made exactly this kind of complaint. Which presumes they have retained ownership of the copyright.
If the owner accepted the royalty fee, then they consented. If they joined ASCAP, then they consented to license to whomever paid the ASCAP fee.
Interesting points, but advancing them at a blog that cultivates bigots as a target audience and publishes a steady stream of right-wing bigotry seems inexplicable.
What is inexplicable is the volume of verbiage you post here relative to the substance. It's like cotton candy -- looks big and fluffy, but it's mostly hot air.
You are full of shit. The reason you don't like me and don't like my message is that you are a worthless, disgusting right-wing bigot.
Just proving my point.
What still isn't clear to me is how the wedding photographer's objection is based in the message that their work sends -- or more generally how the caveat that the objection can't be based in the mere purpose to which the expression will be put doesn't eat the rule. Why doesn't, as in the license plate cases, the argument that everyone knows the I'm required to do it gut any claim that my concern is with the message I'm sending?
For instance, suppose I offer a special groomsmen and bridesmaid wedding photography packages (or maybe funny bachelor party packages) which only involve taking pictures of one of the parties getting married (if u buy both no shots include both spouses). Obviously it's customized and expressive but is my complaint that it's expressing approval of a gay marriage sufficiently related?
After all, I presumably don't get to refuse to take quirky but standard custom portraits because I learn they will be used as the centerpiece of a wedding. Yet how is my example above any different? If not why does it become different when I take pictures of the grooms together? If they aren't kissing the individual pictures could have been pics celebrating a friendship.
I get that line drawing is hard but I'm just not seeing how you can crowbar in the rule that the objectionable (to provider) message can't be the created by the use to which the products will be put -- assuming everyone will know I was aware of that upon creation.
I guess my question is really: but surely it is primarily the fact that the photographer knows the photographs will be used to celebrate a gay wedding that makes them send a message they see as objectionable.
After all, those exact same pictures wouldn't send any message approving of gay marriage if the photographer thought they were going to be used by the groom's secretly Christian aunt who had paid for the package to expose the moral depravity of gay weddings or because they believed their pictures would reveal evidence not god's disapproval. It's mostly the fact that people who see the pictures in the intended use context will assume they were taken to express a message of celebration that makes them objectionable to the photographer.
You're acting as if photography is a mechanical act. But — particularly for a professional — it is not. The photographer makes all sorts of choices, that are flattering to the subjects or that make them look bad. Angles, focus, lighting, etc. The photos that the photographer chooses to take depend on the message he wants to send.
As an obvious example, think of political ads. The politician that the ad is intended to support looks warm and fuzzy and friendly and relatable. The opposing candidate is portrayed through photos as harsh and evil.
Presumably the marrying couple wants themselves and their guests and the event itself to be portrayed flatteringly in the photos. The secretly Christian aunt wants the opposite.
"The product must be customized and expressive"
The Supreme Court will be flooded with cases for years to come determining what is customized and expressive
That's the kind of fact-intensive question that SCOTUS is unlikely to consider.
Why?
Next up will be the white supremacist photographer who refuses to take photos at an interracial wedding
Then it will be the gay hair dresser who refuses to do the hair of a religious extremist
Ms Smith will be back because she refuses to create a website celebrating pride month (even though she apparently has no problem with the gays, just doesn't like them getting married)
It will go on and on
Perhaps the future -- and the answer -- is a series of "Green Books" that, instead of making the world a bit safer for Blacks, makes the world decidedly difficult for bigots.
Better Americans could compile and consult an online database that identifies the bigots who refuse to serve (or express bigotry toward) gays, Blacks, women, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, immigrants, etc. The reasoning, inclusive, modern Americans could choose to refrain from transacting with or hiring the bigots. Bigots, of course, would be free to seek transactions or associations with other bigots.
A similar database for law enforcement personnel -- police officers, laboratory technicians, prosecutors -- would be an enormous public service. Every lie in court, every citizen complaint, every firing, every demotion, every disciplinary finding, every liability imposition would be available to those -- lawyers, defendants -- who encounter a wrongdoer.
Emil Faber was right. Knowledge is good. Let's put it to use in letting everyone know who the bigots and bad law enforcement personnel are.
Why would you WANT a "white supremacist photographer" to take photos at your interracial wedding?
Do you really want crappy photos taken? Every single one of them out of focus?
What is the desperate fascistic obsession with forcing people you hate you to be part of your most important life events?
Are you just mentally ill?
"There will be questions about whether the message-based objection is tantamount to a status-based one and therefore unprotected."
No, it isn't, and only a thug would ever try to claim that it is.
I don't like / value / respect your event. Therefore I do not have to do anything to support your event.
Because forcing me to support your event is a violation of my Free Expression rights.
Are you gay, and do you want to rent my venue so you can have a party with some friends? That's a "public accommodation" situation.
Youwant to throw a "Gay Pride" event at my venue?
That's MY Free Expression that you are trying to use, and I should have every right to refuse to host your event.
Certainly no reasonable person could argue that it's OK for social media companies to ban from their sites speech that they don't like, but that a hotel can't do the same. "Gay Pride Party" is speech. It is expressive
Yes, social media should definitely be free to ban such things
Does anybody on here know the law ???
"During the Founding-era, “freedom of the press” was understood to protect for-profit activities and communications as much as any other activities and communications. Most newspapers were, after all, for-profit businesses. The protection extended to commercial messages. As Thomas Bradbury Chandler, a prominent American Tory, wrote in 1775, “A free press is the channel of communication as to mercantile and public affairs” (emphasis added). A March 28, 1788, article in a New Hampshire newspaper described the value of newspapers largely by referring to their business content:
In [newspapers] we find many interesting thoughts in . . . agriculture, and commerce . . . The merchant learns the general state of trade, hears the prices current . . . thus he and the insurer are mutually advantaged . . . . The artist hears of employ[ment] or presents an advertisement of the various things he has for sale . .
"Respect for dignity"
Let us introduce Michael.
Michael is:
Male
White
Cis
Het
Trump supporter
Right wing
Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian
Absolutely NOTHING in the US Constitution provides a group of lesbians ANY "rights" that Michael does not also have
The same is true, to the best of my knowledge for US Civil Rights law.
it's certainly true for any legitimate "Civil Rights" (as opposed to "we are thugs and we're going to shove our politics down your throats" laws).
Can a hotel refuse to host a "we hate blacks" party? How abotu a "we're all Nazis" party?
Yes?
Then they can equally refuse to host a "Gay Pride" party
No one owes you dignity, or respect. Any more than you owe it to Michael
"It will also not suffice that the vendor objects simply to the purpose or occasion for which the customer intends to use a product. If a transgender person wants to buy pink and blue streamers to celebrate their gender transition, the business can't refuse to sell the streamers based solely on the purpose for the use. "
Well, now, I would say "that depends."
If you go to a store and say "I want to buy pink and blue streamers", then they should sell them to you.
but if you go there and say "I want to buy pink and blue streamers so I can throw a gender reveal party / highlight a satanic orgy", then they should be able to refuse to sell them to you.
STFU and just buy the product, you're fine.
Tell people what you're buying it for? Then they should have the right to decide if they want to be part of that.
Your individual freedom and dignity are NO more important than mine. The fact that I own a business does not decrease my rights
So today I see this on the homosexual lifestyle and I think ‘every American should be fighting the gay lies”
At least 4 studies published in medical journals over the past 12 years have found that LGBTs in Sweden have significantly higher suicide and suicide attempt rates than heterosexuals. This holds true after controlling for age, marriage status, HIV status, and socioeconomic status. In 1979, Sweden’s National Board of Health and Welfare ruled that “homosexuality is no longer a mental disorder,” and in 2013, the Swedish government created a webpage declaring that Sweden is “one of the most gay-friendly countries in the world” and that the 2013 “Stockholm Pride parade had an estimated 60,000 participants and 600,000 spectators, one of several signs that LGBT people are a welcomed part of Swedish society.” These facts undercut the common claim that the higher suicide rates of LGBTs are due to a lack of societal acceptance.
And, so what? It's still expression.
Queen almathea 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Not an obvious one given the message involves something only the members of a particular protected class do."
You are obviously incapable of understanding the distinction. the refusal to provide the service for a specific act, not a refusal to provide service to a class.
Get back to me when you have a serious comment.
Any message in the product is culinary.
There is no customization of a sandwich that would be different for a gay wedding as for a straight one.
-dk
I don't know. I merely raise the question - if a court were to conclude that saying "X need not apply" is not constitutionally protected speech, it's not easy to see how they would arrive at that conclusion.
It doesn't go :
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech (so long as it's not unkind)..."
Why, are you planning on banning yarmulkes? Or mandating wearing them?
Go to take a nap. Your silliness level is higher than usual.
Different part of the First Amendment, if nothing else.
-dk
All states with public accommodation laws forbid religious discrimination as far as I recall. So the baker’s out of luck if the customer thinks Hitler is God
Actually, in California at least, political ideology is a basis for discrimination.
Oh, well if Subway calls them that, then of course they are “artists.” Like if I call someone a BS-artist, then they are exactly the same as Leonardo DaVinci or Shakespeare. Or if my mechanic calls himself an automotive surgeon, then he is the same as Dr. Michael DeBakey.*
/sarc
* For the youngins here, he was a famous surgeon in the mid 20th century, who pioneered heart by-pass surgery.
And Walmart calls their employees "associates", yet I don't see a corporate masthead with 2,100,000 names on it.
And if the customer demands a "presentation" that the creator finds offensive, then the creator is allowed not to create it.
Unless, of course, the creator works for Subway, and Subway values the customer's money more than the creator's desires
Sandwiches do not have "messages."
... what do you think a baker does differently for a wedding cake being sold to a gay customer then to a straight one?
The hypothetical was a government tax on yarmulkas. Which has been badly misunderstood by many.
And the case you posit is easy. The store is not engaged in expression at all by serving someone wearing a yarmulka, or a Sikh headress, or a burqa. All it is doing is selling the same goods or services they would sell to anyone else. So there is no compelled speech as to the store. The customer might be engaged in speech, but that is purely voluntary.
Refusing to serve someone like that is simply a thinly veiled form of religious discrimination, and is illegal.
Could a Jew force a hat maker to make a yarmulke?
It is expressive, insofar as you are expressing to God how relatively tiny and shameful your brain is compared to His.
As such, a business owner might want no part of that, preferring to piss off God, who, after all, sits idly by while babies get raped to death. Why not only hire Jews if they remove the covering, to piss off that corrupt waste of a god?
I’m sorry. I’m just angry because I can’t figure out what the hell flavor a Grimace shake is.
And as I said : “it’s not easy to see how they would arrive at that conclusion.”
The 1st Amendment says nothing about “speech value” or balancing ‘speech value’ against government interests.
And what’s more it would be easy peasy to apply the law without trampling on the 1st Amendent. Allow the sign and enforce the law if it’s broken in actual hirings.
The fact that culinary competitors try to make their dishes look more appealing or aesthetic does not render it expressive, any more than my putting a new coat of paint on my wall makes it expressive. Looking nice (or appetizing) is not a message.
And if you follow what I have posted, only custom designed cakes that bear a message are expressive. The ones at issue in the cake shop case were designed to celebrate a particular couple and their soon-to-be nuptials. They included highly artistic elements meant to convey that message of celebration.
Could a sandwich do that? In theory, yes, though I have a hard time imagining it. But Subway is not that, not by a long shot.
Why would someone choose a place like Masterpiece over going to the Walmart bakery?
What are they getting that's different?
Subway is engaged in puffery. A common advertising trope.
And, yes, 303 web designer is the same as those artists, because all three used artistic talent to convey a message, even if 303's was far less than those two.
Disney calls everyone who works at its parks — not merely the people who wander around in character costumes — "cast members." That doesn't mean any of them are entitled to join the Screen Actors Guild. It's just an affectation.
All these comments show what is wrong with government in general and this ... stuff ... in particular.
It's full employment for lawyers and busybodies.
So much simpler to simply keep the law out of it.
Q. Why would anyone want to force a baker to bake them a cake, when the baker hates their guts?
A. Because they are a busybody who wants to force the government to do something they are too cowardly to do themselves.
Leave the bigots alone, let them advertise themselves to the world, let the world punish them by staying away, or reward them with more business.
Sticks and stones may break my bones,
but words will never hurt me.
The Supreme Court just prevented the possibility of a Jewish Holocaust survivor baker being forced to write ‘I love Hitler’. And your enlightened leftwing hero Justices were against it. Let this be carved into stone for all time for future generations to see.
Which is, of course, precisely backwards. Constitutional rights beat statutory rights, and laws establishing statutory rights are only constitutional to the extent that they do not infringe constitutional rights. So what they should have said is :
"The fact that is is unconstitutional for Congress to prohibit employers from displaying a sign saying "White Applicants Only" hardly means that Congress cannot pass a law prohibiting employers from discriminating on the basis of race, in actual hiring decisions. Congress can regulate the employer's non-expressive conduct, not his speech."
Posting “No sales to gays” where sexual orientation is an impermissible grounds to refuse service wouldn’t be case by case though, would it?
It depends. On the case. If you put up a sign saying "No sales to gays" but nevertheless you do sell to gays, then you're not in breach of a law prohibiting you from refusing to sell to gays. If you sometimes sell to gays, but sometimes not, then it would depend on why you did and why you didn't each time. Case by case.
The "impermissible grounds" are impermissible under statute. The statute is inferior to the constitutional right to speak freely.
Queen -
you are ignoring the stipulated facts. Your might try to actually become familiar with the facts in the case before spouting rhetoric that is not factually true to support your biased conclusions
Might someone whose familiar with the wedding cake scene recognize one cake craftsman’s cake from another? Like, might their artistic product have some sort of unique or recognizable artistic expression and style?
Queen almathea 29 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
They think it will be a better artistic product?
You are improving - finally understanding the distinction
"Please write X" is certainly expression. I think everyone agrees to that.
Someone could have definitely brought up a religious or in certain states political complaint similar to what I posted. By protecting freedom of conscience the SC protected people from that. And you lefties were against it. Own it.
Actually, Gorsuch explicitly did not address whether cake-bakers were sufficiently expressive to be covered under the new Creative 303 exception.
Fortunately, your Nazi cake hypothetical fits well inside preexisting precedent, and is not threatened by any of the anti-gay discrimination cases.
It's obvious from the context, can you address the hypothetical?
So what?
No, I do not think if one looked at a Walmart cake one could recognize which Walmart employee baked and designed the cake.
I'm sorry, but that dog doesn't hunt.
No it doesn't. It's not reasonable or rational to think that people go to Walmart bakeries and request particular employees to bake their cakes.
That's nonsense.
Yes. Why shouldn't they be able to?
Because it's generally thought of as immoral to force someone else to express something against their wishes?
Because the 1A only protects against compelled speech by the government, which Krogers and WalMart are not.
Does my "generally thought of as" not cover your case?
That's a slippery-slope sort of question QA, but I'll give you my take:
Generally speaking, yes. If they are being asked to write something on the cake I'd actually agree they have a right not to.
The slippery slope here of course, is "what kinds of things can they refuse to write?" If I ask for a cake and request that you write "Brian" on it, that doesn't seem like something that they should be allowed to refuse.
On the other end of the spectrum, I don't think most of the commenters here would have a problem with a shop refusing to write "Hitler was right; kill all Jews" on a cake.
Somewhere in between those two ideas is the problem.
How many other bakeries could they have gone to?
I'm surprised you haven't argued for a Sherman anti-trust action.
Market boycotts are not cancel culture.
You are wrong. Goldman was not a hypothetical, it was an actual case in which a serviceman wanted to wear a yarmulke while in uniform, and SCOTUS rejected his claim to First Amendment protection.
The hypothetical is discussed by the majority and a footnote in the dissent in Bray v. Alexandria Women's Health Clinic, 506 U.S. 263 (1993)
In particular, this Court has held, public accommodations statutes can sweep too broadly when deployed to compel speech. See, e.g., Hurley, 515 U. S., at 571, 578; Dale, 530 U. S., at 659. As in those cases, when Colorado’s public accommodations law and the Constitution collide, there can be no question which must prevail. U. S. Const. Art. VI, §2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yep, sure looks like this opinion has absolutely nothing to say on preventing compelled speech.
No; I also don't think a deli counter guy is a sandwich artist.
The technical staff are called crew members.
As a pedantic nitpick to David's remark, being a cast member in a movie does not require membership to SAG. That is only required, IIRC, for a speaking role.
No. And especially not for a chain restaurant. They're not even supposed to be creative.
From the SCOTUS opinion:
Thus if a gay person wanted to hire her to create a website unconnected to gay marriage (Happy Birthday, or a commercial website, for example), she would do so.
To me, that fact pattern, which has repeated itself in all of these cases, makes it clear that it is the message, not the status, that the person objects to.
"I'm refusing service for the celebration of an Irish marriage, not refusing to provide service to Irish."
"I'm refusing service for the celebration of a Hispanic birthday, not refusing to provide service to Hispanics."
"I'm refusing service for the celebration of Jewish college graduation, not refusing to provide service to Jews."
and, of course...
"I'm refusing service for the celebration of Black lunchtime, not refusing to provide service to Blacks."
I mean, it's a bold argument. But there might be a reason why those kinds of sophistic arguments routinely failed in courts until activist lawyers made them about gays, when all of a sudden it was treated like a serious question.
Which is to say... the SCOTUS here did not rule that she wasn't discriminating against gay folk. They just said the first amendment said she could.
I’m struggling with that hypothetical. What sort of businesses do people who hold Catholic masses hire for their masses?
Suppose you are an event planner that believed circumcision was immoral genital mutilation.
A Jew asks you to plan an upcoming Brit Milah. Can you refuse?
You’re a videographer and are asked to record a rap video, but you believe rap is misogynistic and bad for society. Can you refuse?
You seem to be arguing they shouldn't be able to refuse.
Is there a special Catholic mass wine? I don’t get it. If there was and a liquor store business didn’t want to support Catholics, they simply wouldn’t carry the Catholic mass wine. Surely you don’t think every liquor store should have to carry all wines for all events, right?
Would you mind addressing the Brit Milah or Rap Video hypos?
I like how you progs are suddenly forgetting what precedent is.
A natural wedding is a celebration of the biologically natural union between a man and a woman. It's used to disambiguate the two types of weddings, natural and same-sex.
The distinction is relevant to the hypothetical since we are talking about two different events.
Correct.
What it is not, however, is an opinion about bakers and whether or not cakes are "speech".
Cancel culture goes after bank accounts, vendors, platforms, etc. Cancel culture isn't about not doing business with A, it's about A not ever being able to do business anywhere. You know, cancel them.
Whereas a boycott, is well, it's where you gather others to collectively not purchase from the business. You know, boycott them.
They do not call it "Boycott Culture". How do you not know this?
No, it's you not understanding the difference between boycotts and cancel culture and improperly using them as synonyms that I object to.
HTH
No, it's the government saying it will prevent a bank from opening any more branches (etc.) unless the bank refuses to let the store selling BudPiss get a loan or keep its bank account that's beyond the pale.
Are you even aware of Plessy, 1895, which mandated segregation? Which part of
did you not understand?
Ooooh, it didn't mandate segregation, it allowed states to mandate segregation.
Ya got me there.
As for Woolworth's "company policy", you probably think social media censorship was all about company policy, with government playing no role whatsoever.
Which is why the discrimination based on class is not applicable - Duh
The silliness is your use of that as in the context of a compelled-speech case. Goldman was a case where wearing a yarmulka was forbidden by the armed forces. The hypo was about a tax targetting yarmulkas. And neither have to do with speech, but religion.
So, yes, your invocation of that was silly.
As usual you're being an idiot.
If the government required you as a condition for doing business with the public that you wear a yarmulke emblazoned with 'YHWH is the one true god" that would be compelled speech and the 303 Creative precedent would apply even if Establishment of Religion jurisprudence didn't exist. Or if a customer asked for a website featuring individuals wearing such yarmulkes, and you didn't want to, then the parallel would be closer. I can't think of any other relevant scenarios involving yarmulkes and you sure haven't provided any.
Why are you off on tangents? Care to address the hypothetical?
Further, if same-sex activity was plenty "natural" the anus would self-lubricate when aroused. It's about as natural as a beehive in one's ear.
Saying
“Would you come home with me and engage in sex for money”
if sincerely meant, involves the solicitation of a crime (stipulating that it would be a criminal offense for the addressee to comply)
Saying
“blacks, don’t bring your business in here you won’t be served”
does not. It involves a statement of your intention to commit a crime (stipulating that not serving blacks qua blacks is a crime.)
If you say to a passing cop, “By the way I intend to rob the bank on 14th Street” you might be arrested and questioned, but I’d be surprised if you could be convicted of anything. It’s not solicitation or inducement or conspiracy. It’s merely a statement of your intention. Obviously if you do go ahead and rob the bank, or make a bumbing failed attempt to do so, your statement is not going to help you in court. But you’ll be convicted of robbing or attempting to rob the bank, not of stating your intention to do so.
The approaching gay customer can ask for service and, if refused, then complain to the authorities about the business's non-expressive conduct..
Much as when you arrive at a restaurant just after they've closed, you can ask if they could just manage to fit you in. You can always try.
You yourself say a refusal can send the message “I’m not serving you because I don’t like your kind.”
It can, though that's not actually what I said. I said "I don't like you." Which might mean your kind, whatever kind that might be, or it might just mean you.
A general “I won’t serve any X” sign can be said to be that, but generally. Which is *exactly* what the law prohibits!
And I'm saying that if the law prohibits saying "I won't serve any X" then it should be ruled unconstitutional, since it is forbidding pure speech. Though no doubts the courts would disagree.
Yes, they would. Have. Did. As Josh R pointed out above, it is not "pure speech." It is speech integral to illegal conduct.
Just like if I say, "I'll pay you $5,000 if you shoot my wife," that sentence may be speech but it is not "pure speech."
I wonder if Ms Smith would create a website celebrating Pride Month?
If her only objection is gay marriage then she should have no problem with that
I wonder how many 'straight' men have engaged in anal sex?
Hear! Hear!
What the hell, man?
You are confused about what is the case under discussion. It's not about accomodating employees, it's about the business owner being forced to express opinions offensive to him.
According to Gorsucks...sure, why not? Making one doesn't seem to say anything in particular attributable to the hatter.