The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Why Legal Immigration is Almost Impossible for the Vast Majority of those Who Want it
Cato Institute immigration policy expert David Bier outlines how the US immigration system bars the vast majority of potential migrants, much like Prohibition banned almost all uses of alcohol.
Many people say that illegal migrants should instead "get in line" and "wait their turn" to enter legally. In a new Cato Institute study, immigration policy expert David Bier explains why, for the vast majority, that simply isn't possible. For most there simply is no "line" that they can join. Even for many of those who are potentially eligible, the "line" is so long that it might take decades for them to get permission to enter - if it ever happens at all. In most cases, demanding that would-be immigrants wait in line is much like demanding that people who wanted to get a drink during Prohibition do so legally:
America traditionally had few immigration restrictions, but since the 1920s, the law has banned most aspiring immigrants. Today, fewer than 1 percent of people who want to move permanently to the United States can do so legally. Immigrants cannot simply get an exception to immigrate any more than restaurateurs in the 1920s could simply get an exception to sell alcohol. Instead, just as Prohibition granted only a few exemptions for religious, industrial, or medical uses of alcohol, people seeking an exception to immigration prohibition must also fit into preexisting carve‐outs for a select few.
Many Americans have the false impression that these carve‐outs are realistic options for potential immigrants to join American society, but the government's restrictive criteria render the legal paths available only in the most extreme cases. Even when someone qualifies, annual immigration caps greatly delay and, more frequently, eliminate the immigrant's chance to come to the United States. Legal immigration is less like waiting in line and more like winning the lottery: it happens, but it is so rare that it is irrational to expect it in any individual case.
This study provides a uniquely comprehensive, jargon‐free explanation of U.S. rules for legal permanent immigration. Some steps are simple and reasonable, but most steps serve only as unjustified obstacles to immigrating legally. For some immigrants, this restrictive system sends them into the black market of illegal immigration. For others, it sends them to other countries, where they contribute to the quality of life in their new homes. And for still others, it requires them to remain in their homeland, often underemployed and sometimes in danger. Whatever the outcome, the system punishes both the prospective immigrants and Americans who would associate, contract, and trade with them.
Bier methodically goes through every currently existing option for legal immigration and explains their scope and limitations. For example, as he points out, the refugee admissions system is constrained by a narrow legal definition of who qualifies as a refugee, a tight annual cap (currently 125,000) that the US nonetheless fails to reach because of bureaucratic obstacles, and other constraints. Along the way, Bier also dismantles some other common myths about immigration policy, such as that the US takes the majority of the world's migrants (it in fact only takes about 7.5%), and that it is more open to immigration than any other country (far from it).
Bier proposes a variety of useful reforms, such as abolishing discriminatory country-based caps for employment visas, eliminating long waits for visas of many kinds, and much else.
Much of what Bier covers is well-known to immigration policy experts. But the paper is a valuable overview for both specialists and interested laypeople.
Over the last two years, the combination of the end of the Covid pandemic and policy changes by the Biden administration has enabled the US to regain pre-pandemic and Pre-Trump levels of legal migration. But while Biden's changes have had a significant liberalizing impact, Bier's paper shows they still exclude the vast majority of would-be migrants.
Bier's paper cannot and does not resolve all debates over immigration policy. A committed restrictionist could potentially read it, agree with all or most of its points, and conclude that the status quo is much better than he previously thought!
But it does have a number of policy implications, nonetheless. Bier catalogues many ways in which the current system is self-contradictory, undermining its own stated objectives, such as preventing family separation and attracting workers to industries with labor shortages.
The extraordinary difficulty of legal migration also undercuts arguments that migrants have a moral duty to "get in line" rather than try to enter illegally. The near-impossibility of legal entry for most strengthens the case that they are morally entitled to disobey immigration laws, especially in situations where the alternative they face is a lifetime of poverty, violence or oppression.
The paper also has implications for the ongoing public debate over disorder at the border. Most of that disorder is in fact caused by restrictions on legal migration, which incentivize people fleeing horrific conditions to try illegal routes instead (the only ones available to them). Just as Prohibition predictably led millions of people to purchase alcoholic beverages from organized crime, so severe immigration restrictions predictably lead migrants to cross illegally or seek out the services of smugglers.
The best way to reduce illegal alcohol sales and the involvement of organized crime in that industry was to end Prohibition. Similarly, the best way to reduce illegal border crossings and associated problems is to make legal migration easier, as the Biden Administration has begun to do with its CNVH parole program, a policy that has significantly reduced illegal border crossings by migrants from the four nations it covers.
I do have a few quibbles with Bier's analysis. Most notably, I think the estimate that 158 million people (based on surveys) would migrate to the US if legal barriers were dropped is probably an overstatement. It doesn't take account of various moving costs associated with migration, which respondents may not consider when answering survey questions (e.g. - the cost of learning a new language, finding a job, etc.). It also does not consider constraints imposed by employment and housing markets. In a section of Chapter 6 of my book Free to Move, I discuss the limitations of such estimates in more detail.
It may be that the current system bars "only," say, 80 or 90 percent of would-be migrants to the US, as opposed to Bier's estimate of 99%. But even the lower figure is enough to show the severely restrictive nature of the status quo - and the ways in which it consigns many millions of people to lives of poverty and oppression largely because of morally arbitrary circumstances of ancestry and place of birth. As Bier notes, the system also severely constrains the liberty and economic opportunities of native-born Americans.
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Yeah, that's the point.
And until you understand that (that so many people are just anti-immigration, regardless of legality) you'll continue to fail at making arguments that are persuasive to anyone not already agreeing with you.
This is kind of like your articles on organ markets and "are abortions takings?" in that you're looking at the symptom for a cultural issue and trying to argue the symptom, but remaining blissfully (perhaps intentionally so) unaware of the underlying problem.
And until you understand that (that so many people are just anti-immigration, regardless of legality)
The existence and impacts of piss-poor immigration policies and inept bureaucracies during even "liberal" administrations do not support your claim.
How so?
And until you understand that (that so many people are just anti-immigration, regardless of legality) you’ll continue to fail at making arguments that are persuasive to anyone not already agreeing with you.
Yeah, plug your ears and shout over everyone "I know what you're really thinking!"
Fuck off.
What are you talking about? As I've said many times before, the entire reason I'm on this site is to maintain awareness of what this brand of conservatism has to say. If I were "plugging my ears" I wouldn't be here at all, I would be sticking in a "bubble" with like-minded folk.
Also, it is literally impossible to shout over someone here. The only way to stop people from reading another poster's arguments is to be so amazingly persuasive they don't even read the response.
But you seem to be generalizing that anyone who thinks unlimited immigration is bad just hates immigrants period. I think that’s the way he read what you said and I know it’s how I did.
That ignores people that aren’t bothered by immigrants but understand that there has to be some limit on numbers and perhaps some qualifications as to who we let in.
It’s entirely possible to think immigration is a positive and still be opposed to Somin’s constant complaining that we don’t just waive them all in.
you seem to be generalizing that anyone who thinks unlimited immigration is bad just hates immigrants period
I don't see that. He says: "so many people are just anti-immigration, regardless of legality" which is a quite different thesis.
Nah brah, that's a whole different sentence then what I said.
Ok, upon rereading maybe I didn’t see it right…..
It's different than what he said, but not by much.
He is generalizing that many people who think unlimited immigration is bad just hate immigrants period.
I said nothing of the sort. You're bad at reading comprehension.
No, you very clearly wrote “And until you understand that (that so many people are just anti-immigration, regardless of legality)”.
EE is saying that Ilya can’t argue for lesser restrictions because the people he’s arguing with are, according to Escher’s mind reading, anti-immigration full-stop.
That’s why EE can fuck off.
I did very clearly write that.
And then you very clearly misunderstood it, assigned positions and thoughts to me, and then doubled-down on said assignment.
I said nothing of the sort.
A more honest summary would be "EE is saying that if Somin actually wants to persuade people, then he needs to better understand the fundamental disagreement that is driving the policy disagreement rather then focusing on pre-textual reasons."
And honestly, if you read a statement like "many people are X" and get offended, thats on you. Many people are anti-immigrant. Many people are pro-immigrant. Many people can read both those statements and understand there is no conflict, and that neither label says shit about specific policy viewpoints. "Many people", in that last one, obviously does not include you. Whether or not it does in the previous uses is something I have no comment about.
EE is saying that Ilya can’t argue for lesser restrictions because the people he’s arguing with are, according to Escher’s mind reading, anti-immigration full-stop.
Comprehended just fine.
People who oppose illegal immigration aren't "anti-immigration" any more than people who oppose bank robbery are "anti-banking".
Sure, you could definitionally eliminate "bank robbery" by mandating that banks just hand out money to whoever demands it. But that would just abolish banks, so people who are pro-banking would oppose it.
Somin wants to abolish government. Great, I sympathize with that. Government is a ghastly institution, it's sole purpose for existing is violating the non-aggression principle. If we could get rid of it tomorrow without causing some horrible disaster, we should.
But borders are about the last piece of government anybody working towards anarchy would eliminate, not the first. It's infuriating that he can't understand that.
The US is a wealthy welfare state. So long as that's true, enforced borders are an existential necessity. A minimalist night-watchman state in a world of minimalist night-watchman states might get away without borders. No country in the real world ever could.
The number of people who'd move here if he got his way would obliterate the US. We'd cease to exist in any recognizable form, and we sure as hell wouldn't become a libertarian paradise.
"People who oppose illegal immigration aren’t “anti-immigration” any more than people who oppose bank robbery are “anti-banking”."
Yeah, no.
Here's a useful thought experiment. Imagine that tomorrow, the federal government "opened the floodgates" and allowed anyone crossing a land border to be a legal immigrant, and expedited US Citizenship for them.
Would you be in favor of that?
I am guessing you wouldn't be. And the reason is not because you are just against undocumented immigrants, but against immigration in general. Which is a position you can take!
But the reason that we can't reform our laws in any way to better deal with issues (including better enforcement against employers, a better system of work visas, and reforming the immigration system overall in a holistic manner) is because there are a large number of people that are generally against immigration.
No, I would not be in favor of that, it's an exact parallel to my hypothetical of eliminating bank robbery by mandating that banks hand out money to anybody who asked.
Look, the median income in the US is about $31K. Poverty level is considered to be about $12.9K. The median global income in only $12.2K! And that's with us dragging it up, the median outside the US is substantially lower than that.
That means that roughly half the population in the WORLD would benefit from moving here.
Do you really think that if people started moving here as fast as transport could move them, rapidly becoming citizens, the US would survive in any recognizable form?
Trivially, the fist thing that would happen is we'd become a polyglot country, where people couldn't even talk to each other. What would that do for civic peace? Hell, how long do you suppose the government that openly instituted that policy would survive? We'd have a civil war inside of a week, so many people would be opposed.
Because most of the new citizens would be extremely poor by US standards, you'd have the democratic basis for voting in massive income redistribution. Scratch any idea that the original citizenry could keep what they already had.
Public services would collapse under the load. We'd rapidly become poorer, even as demand for services exploded.
What you're suggesting is a dystopian nightmare. Any sane person would oppose it, even if they thought there was some lesser level of immigration that would be sustainable and beneficial.
Again, I'm not arguing the policy with you.
I'm just pointing out that it is definitionally correct that a lot of people that are against "illegal" immigration are, in fact, just against immigration.
Which is what the person who you (and Vinni) replied to stated. Which I didn't think was that exceptional of a comment.
This is dumb.
It's possible to honestly have the opinion that legal immigration is good, illegal immigration is bad, AND that utterly unrestricted immigration is bad.
I like eating tacos. I do not like stealing tacos. I do not like eating tacos until I'm sick. This is not a contradiction.
I mean, unless your argument is that wanting to reject even one would be 'immigrant', nor matter how vile, means you are "anti-immigration", in which case even Somin is "anti-immigration". Surely you aren't so dumb as to make that argument, right?
I mean, unless your argument is that wanting to reject even one would be ‘immigrant’, nor matter how vile, means you are “anti-immigration”, in which case even Somin is “anti-immigration”. Surely you aren’t so dumb as to make that argument, right?
That seems to be EE's argument for sure. Maybe loki's too.
That's why EE can fuck right off. And maybe loki too.
Bold claim. Too bad you can't back it up.
Just with your own words.
"I’m just pointing out that it is definitionally correct that a lot of people that are against “illegal” immigration are, in fact, just against immigration."
No, you're asserting that. People who are actually opposed to ALL immigration, period, are a rounding error, they're about as uncommon as total open borders lunatics like Somin.
The vast majority of people are just arguing over the level of immigration, and the nature of the selection criteria.
If that is true, then people should stop making the argument that their real issue is with the breaking of immigration laws, and be honest and say the real issue is the level of immigration that is beneficial to the country.
"And the reason is not because you are just against undocumented immigrants, but against immigration in general."
Here we go again. Anyone who isn't for open borders, is "anti-immigrant" and "generally against immigration."
And yet 98/100 leftists will deny being for open borders.
I guess "anti-immigration" is very popular and commands 90%+ approval, then.
You are proudly nativist. Quit concern trolling.
It doesn't matter if you support annual immigration levels of 0, 250k, 500k, 1M, 2M, 5M, even 100 million -- it's all "anti-immigrant" unless you support fully open borders.
I don't see anything from loki13 indicating anything like the broad brush you claim he has.
You're called anti-immigrant because you are actively hostile to the idea of immigration, legal or no.
Putting words in the mouth of people is bad. You should stop that.
He said, "Imagine that tomorrow, the federal government “opened the floodgates” and allowed anyone crossing a land border to be a legal immigrant, and expedited US Citizenship for them." Is that not open borders?
What level of annual immigration is "anti-immigrant" to support, in your view?
Read his argument again, I think. He wasn't addressing what you think he's addressing.
He says that the reason we can't improve our immigration system is that some people would oppose a hypothetical policy of allowing legal status for anyone who crosses the border. That's just plain idiotic.
That isn't at all what he is saying. Not even close. But whatever.
"I don’t see anything from loki13 indicating anything like the broad brush you claim he has."
He proposed a hypo where we legalized all immigration, and said that if you oppose that, you're anti-immigration.
You could prove the opposite by saying that if you support a policy that allows one guy to immigrate, you're pro-immigration.
Toranth got it.
So did I. You didn't.
No, Toranth got it; you did not.
I'm not sure if you still don't get it or are trying to post through it.
Sigh. I got it, I explained it, I corrected your misunderstanding of it.
By the way, have you figured out that Somin is arguing that migrants are morally entitled to violate immigration laws yet?
Most people aren't against "immigration in general." We're against mass unskilled immigration. We don't need hordes of third worlders who bring third world cultures with them, which includes having many children, most of whom are genetically unintelligent.
We've got enough "Real Amuricans" who have 3rd World (3rd World?? been to San Fran-Sissy Co lately? more like 4th, 5th, and 6th World) cultures, many children, "Genetically Unintelligent"?? c'mon man, we're Adults, "Stupid"
Frank
Most people aren’t against “immigration in general.” We’re against mass unskilled immigration. We don’t need hordes of third worlders who bring third world cultures with them, which includes having many children, most of whom are genetically unintelligent.
You're not helping. It's unlikely that skin color or nationality are linked, in any way, to intelligence.
I am guessing you wouldn’t be. And the reason is not because you are just against undocumented immigrants, but against immigration in general. Which is a position you can take!
Because there is no significant difference between, "unregulated immigration" and "immigration in general"? Let's try this one:
"Would you favor elimination of all laws/regulations pertaining to the conducting of business? If not, why do you hate capitalism?"
People who oppose illegal immigration aren’t “anti-immigration” any more than people who oppose bank robbery are “anti-banking”.
Brett you keep saying that but when pressed you reveal yourself as a Great Replacement anti-immigration nutter like so many others on here.
The Democrat Party explicitly says that "demographics are destiny" and that America is destined to move left permanently because it's becoming non-whiter. You don't get to say things like that and then claim that we're conspiracy theorists when we call out exactly what you're doing.
I'd say "Don't be an idiot", but what's the point?
My position on immigration is basically the same as my position on all government actions:
Government should, insofar as it is consistent with the Constitution, aim to maximize the welfare of citizens and their progeny. The welfare of anybody else is at most a side constraint.
This is because government taxes us, orders us about, takes our stuff, sometimes even conscripts us. These things are maybe barely tolerable if done for our own benefit. Doing them to us for somebody else's benefit is obscene.
So, I think the government should allow such immigration as is maximally beneficial to people who are ALREADY American citizens. Any benefit to the immigrants is nice, but entirely incidental.
That's NOT a zero level of immigration. That's cream skimming immigration. Every immigrant we let in should improve the country in some way for people who are already Americans, because letting them in improves things for people who are already Americans.
If it's good for them, that's gravy.
So you are no longer for shutting it all down till we can figure out what is going on?
I never was, Sarcastr0. I'm for shutting down illegal immigration.
My mistake - you just want less immigration and a wall with guns because illegals are an invasion and we might soon have a Day of the Rope.
Dunno why anyone would think you're hostile to immigrants generally.
Once again: on what planet does a libertarian think the government is competent to manage immigration to "improve the country"? Can the government competently decide how much steel the country needs? How many microchips should be imported? Sugar? Solar panels? So why do you think labor is different?
You don't have to be terribly competent to beat "Let's throw the borders open to anyone who wants to come in!"
If it's just a free market labor supply issue, I guess we should just give green cards to those who have a domestic job offer in hand, and close down all other immigration?
Stupid analogy, and, as you yourself prove every time you discuss this, there are no "people who oppose illegal immigration." You/they oppose immigration, period.
No, he doesn't.
You would never accept this anti-libertarian argument — that rights should be conditioned on other things happening first — in any other context. "Sure, private firearms ownership should be legal… but only after we get crime under control."
"that rights should be conditioned"
What rights?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
"there are no “people who oppose illegal immigration.” You/they oppose immigration, period."
A: There are stores selling cigarettes to people under 21, we should enforce the law against this.
B: How about we repeal the age restriction on cigarette sales, then there won't be anyone selling them illegally.
A: I don't support that.
B: Aha! So it's not the violation of law you're concerned with, you just oppose the sale of cigarettes, period.
A: No, I support allowing the sale of cigarettes with an age limit of 21, and I think the law should be enforced.
C: I also think we should enforce the law, because it's unfair to those that follow the law. But I would support removing or lowering the age restriction.
B: No, you don't exist. There are no people who only oppose illegal cigarette sales.
__
Or try substituting with anything else. Say, speed limits: You just oppose driving, period!
I mean, I'm not sure how you think this helps your point. Anyone who complains that a store is selling cigarettes to minors is not complaining about the illegality of those sales; he's complaining about the sales themselves.
I'm pro immigration, my wife is an immigrant. She came here legally. She wants her family to come here legally, they are in line.
She's very pro immigration, legal immigration.
"my wife is an immigrant. She came here legally. "
Somin and Bier say this is impossible. Are you imagining her perhaps?
loki wrote: "...a lot of people that are against “illegal” immigration are, in fact, just against immigration."
A lot of people who are against illegal immigration, not ALL people. Loki's argument is being straw manned a bit.
Loki’s argument is being straw manned a bit.
Bullshit. Here's his "argument":
Here’s a useful thought experiment. Imagine that tomorrow, the federal government “opened the floodgates” and allowed anyone crossing a land border to be a legal immigrant, and expedited US Citizenship for them.
Would you be in favor of that?
I am guessing you wouldn’t be. And the reason is not because you are just against undocumented immigrants, but against immigration in general.
So his argument is quite unequivocally: "Against unrestricted, totally-open-borders immigration with fast-tracked citizenship" = "Against immigration in general."
The stupidity of that argument should be blindingly obvious, even to you.
No, you completely missed the point of his thought experiment. Many people claim to only be against illegal immigration, as if it is the breaking of laws which they are really against. But they would also be against loosening or eliminating those laws to make large numbers of illegal immigrants legal. So their problem is actually with high levels of immigration of any sort, not that laws are being broken.
And my strawmanning point referred to taking his argument to be saying that EVERY person against illegal immigration is actually against all immigration, instead of MANY people.
A better though experiment would be: if you were suddenly king, what level of immigration would you set? If the answer is zero, then you are against immigration. If the answer is greater than zero, then you are for immigration. All else is relative.
That thought experiment at least answers the question of being for or against immigration. But it still doesn't prove this argument: "So their problem is actually with high levels of immigration of any sort, not that laws are being broken." Because, as a matter of fact, you can be against breaking immigration laws, while also supporting limits on immigration (whether current high limits, lower, or even higher). There is no contradiction between these positions.
Well that's absurd and ignores nuance both in real policy positions and the English language.
Also, is this really what y'all are talking about? Just how anti-immigration a person has to be before it's fair to call them "anti-immigration"?
The original thought experiment was posed to address many people who like to claim that they are only against illegal immigration. It shows that for many of them (again, not all), they are in fact against immigration in general, or perhaps we should say some higher level of immigration. Your thought experiment isn't tailored to that specific group, so it doesn't seem better to me.
Of course one can be against breaking immigration laws, while also supporting limits on immigration. I would imagine that describes most people. The point is that many people who frame their argument as only being against illegal immigration as a matter of lawbreaking are arguing in bad faith. They actually wouldn't support higher levels of immigration, even if no laws are being broken.
No, you completely missed the point of his thought experiment.
No, I did not. But you clearly did. The purpose of his "experiment" was to assert that simply because he claims something about someone's motivations and desires then it's true. And he in fact made his allegation against one specific person.
Well, someone here does seem to be asserting that simply because he claims something about someone's motivations and desire then it's true. I don't think it's him, though.
Many people support legal immigration, but don't think that everyone who wants to immigrate is entitled to do so.
Is that really the left's position, that everybody who wants to come to the US should be allowed to? That sounds awfully close to open borders, which the left insists it is against.
No clue. The left-leaning sites I go to for perspective don't obsess about immigration like the right-leaning ones (like this one) do. And when it does come up, it's a much more mild discussion without nearly so many blatant racists.
No clue.
That's the first honest and/or insightful thing I've ever seen you post.
Do you imagine that your lame insults make your arguments more persuasive?
Do you think that's the point?
Ridiculing someone for being ridiculous is just fun.
Is that what they're doing? Trying to ridicule me?
I had no clue, on account of muting them a while ago on account of all the racism.
As a side note, the mute function is defintely an improvement, but if someone has muted you there should also be a tag on their post saying "this person has you muted, and will not see your text, though they will see that you responded". People should know when they're being ignored.
Do you imagine that your lame insults make your arguments more persuasive?
It wasn't so much a lame insult as a spot-on observation.
So how do you feel about the persuasiveness of tossing labels like "racist" at everyone who doesn't see things your way?
Everyone who doesn't see things my way isn't racist, they are just stupid.
"The extraordinary difficulty of legal migration also undercuts arguments that migrants have a moral duty to "get in line" rather than try to enter illegally."
In much the same way that the extraordinary difficulty of getting free money from banks undercuts arguments that the poor have a moral duty not to rob them, I suppose. And it's extraordinarily difficult to get in bed with a hot looking girl, what does that say about the moral legitimacy of rape laws?
That it's difficult to lawfully obtain something you're in no way entitled to can't justify just illegally taking it, and nobody but citizens are entitled to enter this country.
Your fundamental starting premise, that border are illegitimate, is one that almost everybody categorically rejects. You are aware of that, aren't you? So it makes a lousy starting premise for any argument that you expect to actually persuade anybody.
Weird choice of inquiry - entitlement.
I'm that's not a policy question. Somin is making a policy argument.
Since you brought it up, and put it in bold: “nobody but citizens are entitled to enter this country.”
Why should citizens be able to enter or even stay in the country? Not asking for a legal cite, or a constitutional argument, I’m asking why you think that should be the case. What if they’re poor, or ignorant, or cause any of the other problems you listed? The problems you listed upthread all still apply.
To be more specific:
Why can’t Kentucky ban West Virginians?
Would you agree with a Kentucky governor that said “if we can’t control our state borders, we don’t even have a state anymore?
If overpopulation strains our generous welfare state and civic peace, as you’ve said, why can’t we forcibly just send West Virginians – and their anchor babies – back to West Virginia?
I know they are citizens, but you’ve irrefutably proved why letting West Virginians be citizens is exactly like making banks give away money. Why should West Virginians be allowed that privilege?
I suppose in a counterfactual history in which the articles of confederation collapsed and each of the colonies formed its own independent country, Kentucky could indeed ban West Virginians from crossing the border.
In this universe, citizens of Kentucky and West Virginia are likewise citizens of the United States. They owe a common allegiance to the Constitution and have mutual commitments of common defense, free travel, and free trade. Those institutional commitments and commonalities matter, which is why the US sending an illegal immigrant from Mexico back to his home country is categorically different than Kentucky expelling a West Virginian.
It is always odd to me that people have trouble recognizing that the United States is a defined entity with specific borders and a specific population who have greater ties and responsibilities to each other than they do to foreigners.
I think someone missed the assignment.
The correct answer is, of course, none. If you discount the Constitution and arguments based on it, you end up with what we were heading towards in the 1780s before we pivoted: something closer to the EU then the US.
I explain just above. The coercive relationship between government and citizen imposes upon government a fiduciary duty towards citizens. Or else government has no justification except its ability to kill people who don't obey.
You prove too much here. Plenty of people in a coercive relationship with the government who are not citizens.
Congrats, you played yourself.
It's difficult by DESIGN. I disagree with family reunification being as prioritized as it is, but until the law changes, that's how it works. The entire population of the third world is not entitled to U.S. citizenship, no matter how badly you want that to be the case.
There are two arguments being made here concurrently:
1) As an immigration policy matter, the U.S. should/should not exclude most prospective immigrants.
2) As policy justification matter, the argument that immigrants fleeing horrible circumstances should "wait in line" is/is not coherent because there is/is not a meaningful line.
One can say "should exclude" for #1 but still agree there "is not a line to join" for #2. And vice versa. Or any combination of the these two premises.
So I believe you are saying "there is no meaningful line" and that's fine because the US "should exclude" most immigrants.
(By the way, if the goal is to sift the world for the best citizens, why are we making it so hard for the people who are willing to do anything it takes to get here? Is it because we don't have the space?)
Strange, then, that the US has the most immigrants of any country, by a large margin.
Mostly because our political class are sufficiently united against the general population on this topic that voting scarcely works. Even when we vote in politicians who say they'll reduce illegal immigration, once in office they find some way to avoid doing it, and prevent the few who honestly try from succeeding.
Mind, if we could shut off the illegal immigration, the public would probably support a higher level of legal immigration. It's the total across both sorts that has people overwhelmed.
I think you are right, and the reason this happens is because the business community in general recognizes that our economy depends on immigrants, and under our current system on illegal immigrants, in certain sectors. And that's who most of the "political class" listens to.
It's not that the economy depends on immigrants, but that businesses reap the benefits of cheap labor, while pushing the costs onto society as a whole.
Exactly. High levels of unskilled immigration drive down the cost of labor, while driving up the cost of public services.
This remains economically illiterate. How many have explained to you the lump of labor fallacy, and our current labor needs?
At best the effects you are talking about have been observed as extremely regional.
You are the epitome of the saying one cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into.
The effect I'm describing was seen nation-wide during the Trump administration, when he actually did drive down illegal immigration for a while. And, prior to the economy being steered off a cliff during Covid, (As a result of state level decisions.) we were seeing real increases in median income for the first time in a long while.
Any actual numbers, or just your own hostility-driven feelz?
“America traditionally had few immigration restrictions, but since the 1920s, the law has banned most aspiring immigrants.”
America traditionally was a vast unsettled wilderness, with natural barriers to immigration known as oceans, and the attending treacherous lengthy journeys.
The major revolution and turning point for American immigration policy was the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. This Act transformed the country over the ensuing 50 years and brought forth a wave of immigration that is unprecedented in the history of the world.
U.S. Immigrant Population and Share over Time, 1850-Present
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time
We also traditionally had no welfare state. You didn't get to move here and get all sorts of free shit.
This Act transformed the country over the ensuing 50 years and brought forth a wave of immigration that is unprecedented in the history of the world.
Not even in the history of the US.
Did you look at your own damn chart?
It clearly shows that the wave of immigration around the start of the 20th century led to immigrants comprising 15% of the population, a little above where it is now.
Yes, and that percentage figure must be considered in tandem with the total numbers figure, and other factors, such as the settlement of the wilderness and the end of the frontier era, to paint a complete picture.
America is not full. This is dumb.
America is a lot fuller than you want to admit, once you take into account that most of the uninhabited areas are uninhabitable desert, and parks.
Sure, we're not at European population densities in most states, yet. Do we WANT to be?
Follow the thread, Brett.
"a wave of immigration that is unprecedented in the history of the world" is wrong; and our current population density doesn't make it less wrong.
No, it's right. Take a look at the chart again, the total numbers line in particular.
Most 1880-1924 immigration was from Europe. You can't possibly argue that there's no difference between immigration of white Europeans, Mexican Aztecs and Guatemalan Mayans.
And that level so horrified people that we slammed the doors shut for a generation. Which is WHY the proportion of immigrants in the population subsequently dropped. Don't forget that part.
We're headed towards that history repeating.
Aren’t you the one that cited Camp of Saints as a prediction of things to come?
If things don't change, sure. We're headed for them changing, because the federal government has been routinely exceeding the American people's tolerance for high levels of immigration, especially since Biden took office.
Once again I remind you: Within a few months of Biden taking office, illegal immigration increased 5 fold, and then never went down again. I know you'll keep claiming that wasn't the result of a deliberate policy choice, but you're full of bullshit.
No. YOU are an economically illiterate with an incredible level of hostility towards illegal immigration.
Plenty of people are against illegal immigration – I am as well (I just know who the victim is). But there is not a critical mass that share your ‘it’s an invasion’ fucked up bigotry about it.
And your Great Replacement corkboard and string speculation is another you being an outlier.
It's pointless to argue the details of immigration policy without first deciding what the goal of immigration policy should be.
A general guiding principle that might be established for any government policy is to maximize the value of citizenship, somewhat analogous to a corporation maximizing the value of a share of its stock. Alongside this principle, other aims may be considered (and may not even be divergent with the principle), such as altruistic and moral values, a desire to help others, and general goodwill toward mankind.
Of course, there are any number of competing principles or goals that could be put forward.
Once the goal of policy is decided, you will then need to establish, as much as is reasonably possible, how various measures or policies compare in terms of accomplishing the goal.
Many or most US citizens can agree that our immigration laws are a hopeless mess. If that's the case, then instead of whining, we should propose a new immigration law that deals with all aspects of the problem (including border security) and that repeals all prior immigration laws and moots all prior court decisions.
Who should draft this new law and present it for debate? That sounds to me like a worthwhile project for law professors.
Sure.
Unless, of course, I'm right. Then any such plan would suffer the same fate as every other attempt at meaningful immigration-law reform for the past forty years: picked to death over pre-textual concerns.
It’s all politically driven. Too easy for Republicans to campaign on criminal illegals taking welfare and free schooling and the left to campaign on racists that hate brown people.
The nature of politics generally doesn’t all for rational discussion.
"past forty years"
None of these efforts took account of the wishes of immigration hawks.
It was one group of pro-immigration people [Democrats] making deals with another group of pro-immigration people [pro business establishment GOPers] with some grudging half heart-ed nods towards security.
Until the pro-immigration people take security seriously, no effort will succeed.
I mean, Bush building a wall was literally part of the negotiations for him to get immigration reform. Hawks got their wall, but somehow kept finding reasons to tank reform.
"Hawks got their wall,"
Please point to the law which appropriated money to build a complete wall along the entire border.
"Please point to the law."
No new goalposts.
Immigration hawks have demonstrated their bad faith again and again in grand bargain attempts.
There's a constituency for owning the libs while fucking immigrants over, to be sure.
Just kinda awful to take advantage.
His statement is not accurate. No goalposts involved.
The wall was indeed part of the negotiations.
Are you saying no wall building occurred during Bush’s administration?
“Hawks got their wall,” is not true.
They did. I was pretty young but I even remember that. It wasn’t as high profile as Trump but it was pretty public.
It was pretty public, for show, with huge holes all over the place. It's like patching ten square feet of your roof, when it has holes all over the place: Your house is still going to flood when it rains.
Hawks got their wall.
Of course they were never going to say it was good enough - they were never arguing in good faith.
The Berlin-Wall like vision you have is hilariously unrealistic and just speaks further to your massive hostility going beyond common sense.
That's the 2009-2016, and 2021-current goalpost, used to beat up Obama and Biden.
From 2000-2008 (W. Bush) and 2017-2020, the goalpost was quite a bit smaller, and is what Bush delivered in exchange for reform, and which Trump grand-standed on.
But if you were serious on this topic, rather then just enjoying the
KabukiSecurity Theater, you would know that.I'm more optimistic for gun control than immigration. The extremists in the GOP are really extreme, and all to many of the Dems have become just reactionaries in response.
The speed limit is 60 and yet everyone is driving 75. Shouldn't we draft a new speed limit and then enforce it with sharply escalated strictness designed to eliminate speeders once and for all?
No, we're not going to do that, because:
(a) Authorities have a financial interest in having the problem rather than the solution,
(b) Most people aren't really comfortable with subjecting speeders to execution, life imprisonment, or deportation, especially when it's some actual person in front of them rather than a violator in the abstract,
(c) Low speed limits are, to a large extent, virtue signaling about safety, in contrast with the real preferences about safety vs convenience that are revealed by behavior, and
(d) There's just too damn many to catch.
You can see how this maps onto immigration.
This isn't a speed limit. It's tangled, confusing, and needlessly immiserating to immigrants legal and illegal alike.
I'm not optimistic, but this is an area crying out for reform.
Not trying to trivialize it by comparing to speed limits. Maybe drug laws would be a better analogy. But if we can't even "fix" speed limits I see little hope for fixing immigration.
Fair enough.
Agreed there's not a lot of hope of reform.
How is drafting this new law going to help, if we don't first establish that our immigration laws have to actually be enforced?
Exactly. How would it make any difference at all without enforcement?
The claim is that our immigration laws are a hopeless mess. But actually, it’s the enforcement of those laws that is a hopeless mess. The highly conspicuous, deliberate, enthusiastic, political, and heavily lobbied for lack of enforcement.
For those that are inclined to agree that “our immigration laws are a hopeless mess” and we need reform, what are the top 3 issues with our immigration legislation that should be fixed?
Because mostly, it turns out all they really want to do for “reform” is just turbo charge immigration levels and let in way more people, as well as granting amnesty and voting rights and even more welfare to everyone that does it illegally of course.
I’d say “chain migration” could be ended in favor of some sort of more merit-based selection. But other than that it’s just a matter of enforcement (which does need funding and fixes through legislation).
Because mostly, it turns out all they really want to do for “reform” is just turbo charge immigration levels and let in way more people, as well as granting amnesty and voting rights and even more welfare to everyone that does it illegally of course.
Very much this. The ratchet effect. "It must be more, more, more."
(1) Mandatory jail time for people that knowingly hire people not authorized to work in the US. Probably make this extend a few degrees of separation so you snag the actual bosses that are driving this, and not just the bottom-rung hiring manager that's following orders.
(2) Adequately fund the immigration justice system such that asylum claims are promptly and fairly heard, rather then the current system where people can be strung on for years.
(3) Larger grace period for people here on work visas to find a new job after they've been fired.
Doing #1 will put a stop to economically motivated illegal immigration, and force congress to make realistic reforms as a whole in order to maintain our pool of unskilled/lowskilled laborers.
Doing #2 will mean that however we --as a country-- decide to handle asylum claims, people get an answer quickly. "Justice delayed is justice denied" and all that jazz.
Doing #3 would reduce the perverse incentive that current work visa-holders have to put up with abusive work environments. Immigrant labor should not be seen as an easy target for abuse because they face deportation if they can't find a new job in an unreasonably short time.
The United States is under no obligation to let in any number of immigrants so that it's no longer considered impossible to get in. That's just plain silly. Not our problem.
Of course, Professor Somin continues posting such things in bad faith, because he doesn't believe in any immigration restrictions...of course he doesn't think it should be impossible. That's not his personal decision to make. Others believe differently, and that is current law.
Somin isn’t talking about obligation or entitlement or anything like that.
It says something people keep bringing those concepts up; speaks to the ‘mine, not yours’ mindset. Not the best when it comes to policymaking.
The ass wipe speaks!
Considering that he literally argues that foreigners are morally entitled to be illegal immigrants in this post, your argument that Somin is not talking about the moral aspects of immigration laws is typical Gaslightr0 bullshit.
Did you even read the post before commenting on it?
He doesn’t argue that here.
So arguing against it here is odd. Except it does go to the axiomatic nature of your mindset.
"The near-impossibility of legal entry for most strengthens the case that they are morally entitled to disobey immigration laws, especially in situations where the alternative they face is a lifetime of poverty, violence or oppression."
What is he arguing above, if not that foreigners are morally entitled to violate our immigration laws?
Oh, was that what you were addressing with your entitlement argument? Seemed a more sweeping rejoinder when you made it.
I...
Do you even read Somin's posts, or just guess at them?
Somin argues that exact thing in is article and I highlighted that he did so, but somehow you missed it? Now that Brett has cut-and-paste the exact sentence that uses those specific words, are you still going to pretend that Somin is not arguing what he is, in fact, writing as arguments in this post?
Perhaps you should go read Somin's post, then come back and re-start your commenting.
Dude. Argue against THIS post in the comments for this post. Not other random Somin posts that pissed you off weeks ago.
No one has trouble with this except with Somin posts.
We are literally quoting things from THIS post, and you're accusing us of talking about other random posts.
I thank others for pointing out that you’re gaslighting me here. You’re attempt to finely parse what I said versus the content of Somin’s post is par for the course with you. I stand by my prior that it’s not our problem that most people wanting to get in can’t. He argues otherwise. Our immigration laws exist to benefit the citizens of the United States (not foreigners) and are a legitimate expression of democratic sovereignty.
You’re also arguing in bad faith, that we’re all supposed to disregard Somin’s very obvious public opinions on immigration restrictions when critiquing this post, which can be fairly recognized in this latest, while in the same comment section referencing Brett’s previous comments on this blog on other posts, accusing him of being broadly anti-immigrant. Pick a standard and apply it fairly.
I know many Somin posts look alike, but for the love of God, man, read the post! We've even provided exact quotes, and you still haven't managed to figure it out!
Sigh. Read it again.
Did you even read the post before commenting on it?
Sarc doesn't have to read things to know what they say.
That's pretty impressive mind reading, particularly because Prof. Somin has never written that he "doesn't believe in any immigration restrictions." Of course commenters like you will continue the strawmanning on all his posts on the subject.
Just like "no one is for open borders." Stop the BS. If there are no actual and meaningful restrictions that you would support on immigration, then you're for open borders. It's that simple.
"Prof. Somin has never written that he “doesn’t believe in any immigration restrictions.”
In those exact words, no.
He once conceded that convicted terrorists could be denied entry. Other than that, can you identify any other restriction he has approved?
He said almost impossible, Bob. It's in the headline. Why lie about something so obvious?
This is what you are defending as totally fine:
https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2023-03/2023-bier-immigration-figure-4-expand-4.png
I was making a joke about the wife, you dope.
Is the fact that Ilya won’t post his articles on the top page with a “Read More” link mere inattentiveness or excessive ego?
Laziness, I assume. He often posts these in multiple places, so I assume he simply doesn't include any formatting that doesn't automatically carry over.
Not enough to complain, lets overanalyze!
Still better and more on topic than your comments, which aren't even about Somin's post but some thing you imagined in your head.
Rich coming from you.
you are arguing against some unstated previous Somin post, because I guess your hate for him has transcended time or something.
Your comments in this thread have been truly remarkable in revealing how dishonest you are.
You've been provided with exact quotes from THIS post that you fail to recognize - despite having your repeated errors pointed out by multiple people - and yet here you are, still trying to pretend you have some clue about what this article is about.
You, Sarcastr0, did not read Somin's post. You did not recognize the references people made to it, and yet pretended to be making factual arguments about it. You have lied, again and again and again, in order to attack people for something YOU ARE DOING.
You are always dishonest, usually argue in bad faith, and constantly ascribe false motives to others instead of addressing their arguments, but here you've really outdone yourself.
Anyone with the ability to read can go to the original article and see you have been lying all this time. While you may wish to shame yourself further by continuing your dishonest insult spree, I'm going to recommend you just stop and go back to pretending it never happened, like you always do.
That's a lot of anger just because you have to scroll a little extra to get past Prof. Somin's posts.
Are you confused?
No, I feel nothing more than mild annoyance at Somin's disinclination to use the "read More" feature.
Sarcastro's blatant lies and repeated personal attacks, however, are quite deserving of condemnation. The fact that I addressed that comment entirely to Sarcastro and his posts, rather than any criticism of Somin, should have made that clear.
Funny how the US stopped virtually all immigration between 1924 and 1965 and managed to thrive despite a worldwide depression, a two front world war followed quickly by a “police action” in Korea.
And over that 41 year period, the Italian and Polish Catholics we imported until 1924 mostly integrated into the American mainstream. The Ashkenazi Jews didn't, but due to their history, they never really assimilate into anywhere in the diaspora.
If there is anything the poorly educated, faux libertarian, roundly bigoted right-wing fans of this white, male, faux libertarian conservative blog can't abide, it is some genuinely libertarian content.
Let me ask you something. When you penetrate little boys, do you wear protection? If not, are you getting tested regularly?
AIDS, you're not in any position to judge others as being poorly educated. You regularly flaunt basic (first-order) logic on this blog with pride, you cannot defend your own basic propositions, and your espoused values are so stupid and obviously false that you yourself don't believe their implications. (When this last concern is repeatedly demonstrated to you, you simply ignore it.)
Carry on clinger, till your grandkids get Breiviked. Where do they go to school again?
I enjoy the cognitive dissonance going on with Somin's arguments.
He argues it is "almost impossible" to immigrate to the US...yet the US grants over a million new green cards every year.* (Aside from COVID years of 2020-2021, when it dropped to just 700,000). Meanwhile, we get on the order of a million illegal immigrants every year. But it's "almost impossible"
Simultaneously though, he doesn't believe that more than 160 million people would immigrate to the US tomorrow if they could, as the surveys show. Because of "housing shortages" or "job shortages"...
Of course, Somin also manages to misread the survey. In practice, over 900,000,000 people would move from their country of origin if they could. 18% of those put the US as their first choice (or the 160,000,000 figure). We need to ask...of the remaining 740,000,000....if they couldn't get into their first choice, would the US be a "second" choice, it it had open borders. We need to assume that for a large portion of people, that would be accurate.
Canada supposedly has 70,000,000 who would like to immigrate there. I can't see Canada allowing them all in. I'm guessing for many (if not most of them) the US would be a high second choice.
Somin's cognitive inability to correctly estimate the number of people who would move to the US if there were actual open borders is a continual fail point in his analysis. Only by ignoring reality can he make his theory work.
If your numbers are correct, I don't really see the cognitive dissonance. If there really are 160 million people who want to come to the US, and we only grant 1 million green cards, and another million enter illegally, that's only about 1 percent of the total who want to come. Vanishingly low odds, I'd say almost impossible odds.
Your odds of making a withdrawal at my credit union are even worse; Not one person in a million, world-wide, is a member. They'd just arbitrarily reject any withdrawal attempts by anybody else, the cads.
That sounds like a challenge. Which credit union holds your account?
Because Somin doesn't believe the 160 million number is real. He assumes it's lower
To make it clear, Somin writes "'80%-90%" of immigrants are barred as opposed to "99%"
That "99%" refers to the 160 million people who want to immigrant. A little bit of math reveals that Somin believes only 8-16 million people want to immigrate to the US (80-90% of 160 million).
If that's the case...just wait 8-16 years. And everyone who wants to immigrate to the US will get in.
Remember...these are Somin's assumptions. He believes only 8-16 million people want to immigrate to the US. We already take in a million new immigrants legally every year (that doesn't even count the 500,000 to million illegal immigrants).
My mom came from East Germany as an “Exchange Student” in 1960, decided to stay when the wall went up, (and who would want to go back to Cottbus when you could stay in Atlanta?) met my dad, had me, the rest is history. Oh, she’s a Trump voter, in large part to his immigration policy.
Frank
And the US has zero obligation to "those who want it". Legal immigration is for "those" whose immigration benefits the people of the US.
Free people gather together to form a government, and pass laws like immigration laws, to benefit the people who formed the government. Not to fulfill the wishes or address the "want" of migrant aliens.
If you desire a different law, propose a new one that can get broad public and congressional support.
Because more people want to come here than the US can handle. It’s not rocket science. Similarly, moving into a million dollar mansion is almost impossible for the vast majority of those who want it. It’s almost impossible for me, and I want it. But the US isn’t morally obligated to provide a home for everyone on Earth. And even if it was a moral obligation, it’s not possible.
What Prof Somin neglects to mention is that the US takes in over ONE MILLION immigrants per year, more than any other nation on Earth (and that’s just the ones we know about). So how many more should we take? Give us a number. Because right now we have over 320 million already living here, and not enough fresh water to support them all, particularly in the Western half of the country (where the most migrants arrive btw).
Immigrants don’t have a choice, but neither does the fetus in an abortion.
If you want Americans to have more choice, that means that non-Americans will have less choice.
Same issue in both cases. If you complain about Americans not having enough choice, stop complaining about the choices Americans have made. And vice versa.
Nah.
Somin is asking what’s a good idea or not.
Brett is coming in arguing to what is the minimum obligation.
That second one is not about policy.
Somin constantly makes the moral argument, in addition to policy claims. It's not irrelevant.
Maybe.
That’s not relevant on addressing his argument here.
Brett is directly addressing an argument that Somin makes; how is that not relevant?
Arguing against other random Somin posts in this post is a pretty confusing choice.
What it looks like is you and Brett see your citizenship as an entitlement and fuck you got mine is your real motive, actual benefit to citizens bedammed.
We're arguing, with quotes, the OP above, and you accuse us of arguing other random posts. That's literally insane!
This Somin post makes that explicit claim!
Damn, man, how many times do you have to make it obvious you've never read the post, all the while throwing out personal attacks based purely on some delusional idea of what other people think about the article you don't even know the content of?