The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Against the "Banana Republic" Critique of Indicting Trump
The real banana republic danger is if high officials can commit serious crimes with impunity.
Earlier today, the Justice Department indicted Donald Trump on 37 counts related to his retention of classified documents after leaving office in January 2021. A good many Republicans have reacted by claiming that the indictment is "the stuff of a banana republic" (as Trump's former acting attorney general Mat Whitaker put it) or otherwise reminiscent of authoritarian states. Nothing can be further from the truth. There are several different ways of understanding the "banana republic" critique. But none of them actually apply to this case, though some might be appropriate to the much more dubious previous indictment of Trump on New York state charges.
It is simply not true that prosecuting a former president or other prominent politician is the kind of thing that only banana republics do. Many liberal democracies have prosecuted current or former heads of state and heads of government. Notable examples include France, South Korea, Israel, and Italy. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is on trial for corruption right now. A similar fate befell his predecessor Ehud Olmert, who ended up getting convicted and serving a prison sentence.
Giving high officials impunity for criminality is actually a hallmark of authoritarian regimes. The fact that Russian President Vladimir Putin routinely commits war crimes and other violations of law without fear of prosecution is a sign of the degeneration of that country's political system, even if some trappings of constitutional government remain.
Another variation on the banana republic claim is that Trump is being charged for petty offenses, on weak evidence, or on the basis of convoluted legal theories - and prosecutors would not have done such things to an ordinary person who had done the same thing. Some such accusations are plausible in the case of the New York indictment brought by state prosecutor Alvin Bragg, which arguably features both relatively petty offenses and dubious, convoluted legal reasoning.
But the classified document case brought by special counsel Jack Smith is much stronger. The indictment includes extensive evidence that that 1) the files were in fact classified, 2) Trump knew they were (they even have recordings of him saying so!), 3) Trump deliberately tried to withhold them, and 4) the classified information (at least some of it) was actually important (e.g. - war plans). This was not simply a case of him retaining some insignificant records that perhaps should never have been classified in the first place. For that reason, Trump's offense here posed a genuine risk to national security.

And there's no creative legal theory involved. If the charges are true, they qualify as pretty straightforward violations of a variety of federal statutes. If a low-level federal employee had done the same thing, the Justice Department would have thrown the book at him. Especially if that underling (like Trump and Richard Nixon before him) left helpful recordings documenting his criminality.
The evidence is so strong that it's not easy to see how the defense could refute it. But perhaps Trump's lawyers have compelling evidence of their own to refute the charges. If so, let them present it in court. At the very least, the evidence in the indictment is strong enough to justify bringing charges.
In a legal system where there are so many laws that a large majority of adult Americans have probably committed a crime at some point in their lives, there is always the risk that an unpopular person will be unfairly hauled into court for petty reasons. That risk also applies to political opponents of the party in power. But that doesn't seem to be what happened in this case. Moreover, the way to deal with that danger is not to give prominent political leaders impunity for their crimes, but to cut back on dubious criminal laws, and enforce norms of political impartiality on prosecutors.
A final possible variant of the banana republic charge is that, due to political bias, Trump is being charged for an offense that Joe Biden is being allowed to get away with. Biden, too, retained classified documents after leaving office (as vice president under Barack Obama). So far, however, the evidence suggests that Biden did not take them deliberately, and (unlike Trump) he turned them over as soon as it became clear he had them. But Biden is under investigation by a special counsel, too (Former Trump US attorney appointee Robert Hur). If it turns out his conduct was in fact similar to Trump's, then by all means indict him, as well! Hur has every incentive to uncover such evidence, and to not spare Biden if he finds that the latter committed offenses similar to Trump's.
If Hur does find comparable evidence against Biden, it may not be possible to prosecute him while he is still president, given Justice Department policy against indicting a sitting president. Perhaps this policy is wrong (I have reservations about it, myself). But Trump supporters are not well-positioned to complain about it, given they were happy to see it shield Trump himself while he was in office.
Similar points apply to attempts to draw parallels between Trump's conduct and Hillary Clinton's use of an illicit e-mail server when she was Secretary of State. Although reprehensible, her conduct was was less bad than Trump's. Among other differences, she misplaced the relevant classified information at a time when she was still in office (and therefore entitled to have it). Trump, by contrast, took classified documents on his way out the door, when leaving office. Unlike with Trump, there is no evidence Hillary Clinton revealed any classified information to third parties. Moreover, when the server was discovered by authorities, she turned it over to them, instead of trying to stonewall, as Trump did.
Perhaps Clinton should still have been prosecuted; her actions were certainly reprehensible. But it's not a double standard to conclude she should not have been, yet simultaneously support an indictment for Trump's more serious offenses. And if you think Clinton should have been prosecuted (or at least investigated further), much of the blame for the failure to pursue the issue falls on the Trump administration, which could have done so during their four years in office.
While the classified documents indictment seems well-justified, the crimes involved are still less serious than those involved in still-ongoing investigations of Trump for attempting to pressure officials into overturning the 2020 election result in Georgia and for his role in the events leading up to the assault on the Capitol on January 6, 2021 (see pp. 98-118 of the January 6 Committee Report for a discussion of potential charges stemming from the latter). A president seeking to use force and fraud to stay in power after losing an election is truly the stuff of banana republics! And, whatever their other misdeeds, neither Biden nor Hillary Clinton has done anything remotely comparable. There may not be a truly comparable case in all of American history. The best way to avoid becoming a banana republic is to prosecute Trump for those actions, severely punish him if found guilty, and thereby deter future wrongdoing of the same kind.
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Moreover, when the server was discovered by authorities, she turned it over to them, instead of trying to stonewall, as Trump did.
WTF?
Her server by then was no longer in her bathroom, but was in the hands of a third part server farm, and when she saw that the subpoena was coming she recruited a crew of unvetted cronies to sort out classified documents from the "recipes" and delete the latter (which was later determined to include classified documents). Then, in order to make sorting through the former more difficult she printed them out and ordered the servers wiped before handing the printouts over. The server wiping didn't actually happen until after the subpoena had arrived, when one of her minions followed up with the server farm and made sure that the servers were THEN wiped.
So, no, HRC never handed over her server.
It could just be that Somin is ignorant. Or had HIS brain wiped. But that's not the way to bet. The bottom line is that nothing he says should be believed.
Has he ever written similar misinformation?
The base violation of law. Classified material MUST be maintained in agency approved protocols. The server was NEVER submitted to the State Dept for approval.
We found out eventually, Obama was communicating with Clinton, neither using govt approved emails. Obama was using an alias.
The reason Clinton was never investigated, is because it exposed Obama's corruption.
The question is whether we prosecute classified and national defense leaks or not.
I think it’s clear we should as a nation. Hillary should not have received what looks like a free pass. But neither should Trump. And his made it so easy for foreign spies to read national defense secrets. That’s the stuff that rank and file government employees at places like Sandia lose their careers over for so much less. Trump’s an insult to all those people.
Seems to me it would have been infinitely more difficult for foreign spies to: 1) know any juicy documents might be at MAL in the first place, 2) physically get someone in there, 3) get access to the room(s) with the boxes for enough time to find whatever juicy bits and record them before being discovered, and 4) avoid being caught on the extensive array of security cameras doing all that, than it would have been for foreign spies to: 1) sit on their duffs halfway around the world, and 2) hack into an poorly secured private mail server hanging directly off the internet.
Exactly -- and do not forget that the FBI had to ask permission from the USSS to get in there and that was with a warrant. Look at the pictures from last August, you will see plainclothed USSS guys with (I think) Uzis standing at the gate. And this was the FBI with a warrant -- not some random dude or dudette whom they'd have arrested if they could, shot if they couldn't.
The bureaucracy worked fast -- it took them about an hour -- but they had to wait that long to get in.
It’s a resort hotel not an armed compound. The USS secure Trump’s person, not whatever files he has lying around.
Hillary's unsecured server - Have her defenders forgotten the lessons of the purple code, magic code, jn6 code?
not to mention the pay for play, uranium one, etc
I'm not sure what to make of Ilya's haphazard intermittent attempts to appear centrist other than he's trying to be the 'controlled opposition' but if so he's absolutely atrocious at it.
So in your view a criticism of one particular argument for not prosecuting Trump is an attempt to appear centrist.
Gandydancer : “when she saw that the subpoena was coming she recruited a crew of unvetted cronies to sort out classified documents from the “recipes” and delete the latter”
I honestly think right-wingers are incapable of getting their facts completely straight. Let’s adjust Gandy’s hysterical account to reflect reality:
After her time heading State ended, Clinton was required to turn over all official documents to the National Archives. However, she was allowed by law and normal practice to delete or withdraw any personal messages. She handed responsibility for this to a firm of lawyers, who were to separate the wheat from the chaff (so to speak).
This they did, and Clinton turned over her official documents to the National Archives as per law. From there, things get murky. Per Clinton & the lawyers, she instructed the computer to be wiped afterwards and the lawyers failed to do so. Upon hearing of the subpoena, a lawyer took it upon himself to do what he failed to do earlier. I’m a Clinton defender, but even I’m skeptical about this story. However, nothing previous deviated one jot from the normal course of law or practice.
As for Clinton being “prosecuted”, Professor Somin is pandering to his right-wing readership. A reminder : The private-server-thing is a total red herring. Doing public business on private email wasn’t illegal then and was common practice with both Secretary of States who preceded Clinton. Colin Powell used AOL.
And all of the question emails were thought unclassified by their sender and only upgraded to classified status on later review.
And 99.99 (an actual number) of the question emails were sent to Clinton by another party using .gov State Department email. There is no legal distinction between that, Clinton’s server and Powell’s AOL account in handling classified traffic. None are rated for classified material. Powell and Rice also had messages sent by private email and later upgraded to classified.
Which means every other person who sent the Clinton question emails should have been “prosecuted”, and apparently everyone who received them as well. But NO ONE has every been prosecuted for mistaking the status of a message. Absolutely no one.
Somin knows this, but feels he has to mix in a little anti-Clinton sugar to make the medicine about Trump’s lawlessness go down better. It must be frustrating to have to talk down to this blog’s right-wing base…
Look, the bottom line is, Somin says this:
"Moreover, when the server was discovered by authorities, she turned it over to them, instead of trying to stonewall, as Trump did."
The fact is, she wiped it before handing it over. And is is beyond belief that he doesn't know that.
Would Somin have written, "Moreover, when the boxes were discovered by authorities, he turned them over to them, instead of trying to stonewall." if Trump had the boxes gone through by somebody without an appropriate clearance, shipped them the boxes he felt like giving them, and then incinerated the rest? After running everything through a photocopier, of course?
No, he would not have. I was being polite when I said he was hallucinating. By any reasonable standard it was a lie.
That said, I remind you we have seen an email chain in which Clinton directed people to strip the classified headings off of documents, and send them to her non-secure. So her claim to have not known she'd discussed classified matters over her email is simply not plausible.
It's just not going to work. You had your day with the butter emails hysteria before the election, FBI leaks and all. Now it's a dead joke you're trying to revive, when all it smacks of is an effort to avoid accountability and responsibility. Will any of this provide a legal, moral or national security jutification for Trump's actions? No? THAT'S the bottom line.
Nige is trying to change the subject from our examination of the fact that Somin is almost as much of a recidivist liar as Nige is.
What examination? Trying to force the Clinton thing into a shape that vaguely resembles the Trump thing? Butter emails revisited.
Nige - Amazing that you continue to live with those delusions
Bretts statement is factually correct.
As DMN noted below she erased them per protocol before any subpoena was in the offing. It is disingenuous for Brett to imply otherwise.
And he’s straight wrong that Somin was lying.
That may well have been what DMN wanted you to infer from his Very Clever wording, but as I noted in reply she did not indeed erase them until well after receiving the subpoena.
Pick your sources of blind trust carefully -- particularly when they're known for playing careful word games.
Clinton didn't erase them. One of the techies did. As DMN said (and it's not Very Clever), the order to erase them came from Clinton prior to the subpoena. The techies forgot to do so, and only erased them after the subpoena. The FBI concluded Clinton was unaware that the techies did so.
"The FBI concluded Clinton was unaware that the techies did so."
Sure they did.
The Very Clever part, as Sarc's retelling aptly demonstrated, was implying the actual deletion had happened before the subpoena. Otherwise there's, well... no point in mentioning the timing of the "order." It's legally irrelevant.
Ah, yes -- "the techies" that somehow unilaterally decided to delete both the emails and a backup knowing full well they fell under a preservation request. A veritable Rose Mary Woods of our time.
The timing is very relevant. If the order came before the subpoena, but the deletion was carried out after without her knowledge, she is cooperating.
The "order" is an utter red herring (which is presumably why it's the first piece of distractive chaff out of the mouths of all the Clinton supporters). The bottom line is that the emails existed when the subpoena and associated preservation notice were served on Clinton's lawyers and then passed on to Platte River Networks. At that point there's a legal duty to preserve everything, which Clinton's attorneys certainly understood and the PRN tech testified he did as well.
Given that state of play, the notion that the tech just on his own decided to spoliate both the emails and the backup tapes -- knowing that that he was not supposed to do so and that the only purpose of doing so would be to frustrate the subpoena -- beggars belief.
Add on to that the fact that PRN and the lawyers claimed attorney-client privilege over their conversations, and there's plenty of circumstantial evidence that she knew or should have known about the spoliation party and plenty of support for an inference that the spoliation was to cover up unfavorable evidence.
But that would have required someone -- anyone -- inclined to actually dig in instead of just meekly folding.
Josh R 14 hours ago
The timing is very relevant. If the order came before the subpoena, but the deletion was carried out after without her knowledge, she is cooperating."
Are you gullible enough to believe that ?
Amazing that you would continue believing that lie
Remember she WIPED the server -- not just erased files because those could be recovered but WIPED them so they couldn't be.
“I honestly think right-wingers are incapable of getting their facts completely straight.”
That’s risible, given the amount of misinformation in your post. Nonetheless I credit you for various reasons with being somewhat sincere. That’s the problem when you rely on partisan sources in your own silo. You think I’m “hysterical” when I’m merely reciting established facts.
“[HRC] handed responsibility for this to a firm of lawyers, who were to separate the wheat from the chaff…”
Nope. She handed the task over to her personal cronies, mostly or entirely lawyers (but not remotely “a firm of lawyers”) and many on the public payroll, who, as I said, DID NOT HAVE CLEARANCE TO EVEN LOOK AT THE CLASSIFIED MATERIAL. And why they failed to correctly identify the material they needed to turn over AND DELETED ALL COPIES OF THE FALSELY ALLEGED TO BE PERSONAL MATERIAL I’ll leave you to ponder.
“Per Clinton & the lawyers, she instructed the computer to be wiped afterwards and the lawyers failed to do so.”
You are being misleading. The server farm employee said he failed to act on an order to wipe the files until (again, AFTER the subpoena had been delivered to Clinton) Susan Rice “reminded” him that she had ordered the emails be deleted and he THEN did it, supposedly without telling Rice that he hadn’t done so before so that she supposedly didn’t know that the subpoenaed emails still existed. So you have to believe, in addition to their honesty about this, that she didn't ASK him whether the subpoena could be complied with.
“And all of the question emails were thought unclassified by their sender and only upgraded to classified status on later review.”
No, Clinton could not possibly have thought her emails were unclassified if they had not gone through a classification process. That was NOT consistent with the training she underwent and was certified on. The deleted emails which were when recovered judged to BE classified were judged to have been classified WHEN WRITTEN, due to their subject matter,, not “upgraded to classified” after examination.
“Which means every other person who sent the Clinton question emails should have been “prosecuted”, and apparently everyone who received them as well. But NO ONE has every been prosecuted for mistaking the status of a message. Absolutely no one.”
This is a mishmash of nonsense. Everyone with secure email system access has to be certified in its use first and are well aware that secret status is determined by content and not through a classification process, and the claim that they were “mistaken” about whether the material was classified is implausible nonsense. You of course will not ordinarily be prosecuted for merely receiving classified material on an insecure system though you are probably required to report it. And there were instances (when, e.g., her secure connection was down) when Clinton DEMANDED that she get classified material extracted from the secure system, transcribed, and sent to her insecure one, and THAT was illegal.
“There is no legal distinction between that, Clinton’s server and Powell’s AOL account in handling classified traffic.”
Powell’s use was before the Clinton-era policies were put in place. The spin Powell put on this was consistent with his transformation into a Democrat shill, but in any case his using his phone occasionally was not remotely comparable to Clinton’s use of an insecure server to conduct the bulk of her State Department business.
It’s that poor chicken again, only zombified. Necrobestiality.
This they did, and Clinton turned over her official documents to the National Archives as per law. From there, things get murky. Per Clinton & the lawyers, she instructed the computer to be wiped afterwards and the lawyers failed to do so. Upon hearing of the subpoena, a lawyer took it upon himself to do what he failed to do earlier. I’m a Clinton defender, but even I’m skeptical about this story. However, nothing previous deviated one jot from the normal course of law or practice.
It wasn't a lawyer, it was a technician at the small IT firm she had managing the server. And auto-deletion policies are pretty standard so setting one up once the sorting was done and stuff brought to their attention makes a lot of sense.
And honestly, that has the smell of truth given the propensity for IT folks to procrastinate, and the natural inclination to try and fix things up after the fact. Not to mention there's the technician, the lawyer, Clinton, and whomever else who supposedly knew of the policy who would have had to be willing to lie under oath.
For me the Clinton thing was disappointing from a management perspective (POTUS basically is a middle manager) both in the running of the server and her campaign in general, as well as disappointment from the hypocrisy and entitlement of exempting herself from the rules.
But from a legal perspective it's pretty inconsequential. The official State Dept. server wasn't set up for classified either, so lots of people would have had very similar conduct to Clinton in sending & receiving those docs, which isn't conduct people get charged for.
This they did, and Clinton turned over her official documents to the National Archives as per law
Your conveniently leaving out the part about 6 Congressional committees subpeonas for all communications of the SoS concerning Bengahzi, and Clinton and the State Dept said all she had was turned over. Until the seventh committee demand emails from her private server.
You are also ignoring the original crime. Choosing to store classified information using unapproved protocols.
She didn't do any such thing. She didn't put any classified information on the server.
Her server was never in her bathroom. And it's well-documented that she had ordered her personal stuff deleted before the subpoena was issued.
...and we know it was personal because she said so.
By the way, just where was her server?
Bumble - good point -
only a tiny few classified emails on the server, she deleted her yoga and food recipes emails,
Yet 30k emails deleted, HD bleach bit,
Unsecured server, (magic, purple, jn6 codes - anyone remember their history)
Server specifically set up to circumvent classified protocols and document retention,
Yep amazing that Hillary's defenders continue to live with those innocent delusions (as if Hillary ever told the truth)
Look at the timeline, chief.
Which timeline - the real time line or the one you believe.
You still dont have a coherent understanding of the lack of security of her server
She didn’t delete anything. There is a standard protocol. She followed it. She wasn’t hiding anything from the FBI because they hadn’t asked yet.
What is your coherent understanding of the timeline here?
Sarcastr0 1 min ago
Flag Comment Mute User
She didn’t delete anything. There is a standard protocol. She followed it. She wasn’t hiding anything from the FBI because they hadn’t asked yet.
Sarcastro - are you seriously that easily fooled ?
You are living with some serious delusions if you believe that sh...
The timeline is the timeline. Are you saying it’s a media coverup and you know the Real Facts?
no I am saying you know the facts you are presenting dont align with reality.
further you know those facts dont align with reality
If they don't align with reality then they aren't facts, unless you are Kellyanne Conway.
False as to the first part of that. People do not appear to understand that the server was for ordinary State Department work only. Classified materials were not to be sent there or to the official State Department email she didn't use.
Ah, a Too-Clever classic. You had to say "ordered" beforehand because you know the emails in question were not actually deleted before the subpoena was issued. And I also fully credit you with knowing full well that it was in fact the issuance of the subpoena that led to the discovery the emails had not actually been deleted, followed by the calculated decision to then delete them rather than preserving them as legally required.
"Oh, I was GONNA delete them, so I'm no longer obligated to preserve and produce them" does not play.
False. Have you ever actually read the subpoena? It wasn't for her personal emails.
There you go again. Setting aside the pesky fact that some emails she deleted came to light through other parties and thus they indisputably weren't just "personal," the receipt of a subpoena (in conjunction with a broader preservation notice that you don't seem to want to talk about) triggers an obligation to search for relevant materials, not mass-delete them without looking because you supposedly "know" they're not relevant. In fact, such spoliation supports an adverse inference that they were indeed relevant and detrimental. I'm very comfortable you understand all this.
I’m looking forward to all of the rational takes from conservatives who have actually read the entire indictment.
Brett, this is your time to shine! Defend the indefensible!
THOU SHALT NOT PROSECUTE THE POTUS CANDIDATE YOU DEFEATED. EVER!
Ever? (Sorry, EVER?) What if Trump murdered someone tomorrow?
Like Ted Kennedy did? umm serve 40 more years.
To be fair, he didn't murder her. He left her to drown. I believe there is a legsl distinction between malice and cowardly self-interest.
Criminally negligent homicide?
A charge of criminally negligent homicide (or as it was more commonly called at the time, involuntary manslaughter) would have been very difficult to defend. Senator Kennedy likely did not intend any harm, but his conduct after the accident was reprehensible. The woman would likely have survived if help had been summoned.
I don’t know about 1969, but today he would be facing the following charges.
Vehicular Homicide. OUI resulting in death. Reckless Driving. Speeding. Leaving the scene of an accident with damages over (something). Leaving the scene of an accident where someone is injured. Failing to report an accident in the most timely manner. Driving without a valid license (expired license).
The ultimate irony is that the Mass RMV had to issue him a new (renewed) license before they could take it away from him for something like 30 or 60 days for the “leaving the scene” charge which is the only one they made against him.
There’s probably a few more charges they could have dug up, but it would have been at least this — and while it’s difficult to get an OUI conviction without a BAC, with the fatality I suspect they would have interviewed all the girls at the party and gotten testimony about how much he had drunk that night.
See AJ Baker — although you wouldn’t get a CWIF with a fatality.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/charlie-baker-s-son-andrew-aj-baker-reaches-plea-deal-for-drunk-driving-case/ar-AA1bU2Jk
While that’s a tough call, I would still say no, for a different reason. How was OJ Simpson punished for his crimes?
You have to ask how it would look to the rest of the world, and a civil suit by the victim’s family (undoubtedly funded by the opposition party) would be understandable, while criminal charges would look ‘trumped up” as that is how they do things in much of the world.
As to Teddy K, those were all state offenses, including the expired driver's license. No elected Cape & Islands DA was going to prosecute him. Kennedy's supporters admitted that the "Blonde in the Pond" (rumored to be pregnant) cost him the '72 election -- imagine the implications if Nixon had tried to prosecute him for that -- Kennedy then being his leading opponent.
Wait, the rationalisation for not prosecuting someone it that someone else probably got away with something? Shifting sand would look like solid rock compared to this rationalisation.
No, it's THOU SHALT NOT PROSECUTE THE OPPOSING PARTY'S POTUS CANDIDATE.
The opposing party's POTUS candidate is not above the law.
Actually, he/she/it is -- for the greater good of the political system.
Donald Trump isn't any party's candidate yet.
Nige lives in a different world and in Nigeworld whatever Nige says is to be deemed as true: any facts to the contrary are to be ignored.
It's Mr Ed that described him thusly, Bumble.
As did you:
Nige 1 hour ago
Flag Comment Mute User
The opposing party’s POTUS candidate is not above the law.
Ah, but I didn't say TRUMP!
Meh. It's a fair cop.
I've read the indictment. It's a politically motivated witch hunt.
I learned so much though, that we have a "Department of Defense", that is responsible for National Defense (not sure how performing "Gender Reassignment Surgery" on Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines furthers that, and a "Central Intelligence Agency" that is responsible for "Intelligence"
Rest of it reads like Dean Wormer's accusations against the Deltas,
Frank
31 counts of willful retention of documents. It even sounds like a joke. No evidence that the document were of any consequence or that there was any harm to what Trump did.
Trump harmed himself. If it seems ridiculous on the face of it, it's because he's a ridiculous man.
But somehow Biden didn't harm himself by stacking TOP SECRET documents next to his Corvette.
If you want to see "a ridiculous man" he's no further away than your nearest mirror.
No, he didn't, it turns out. Almost like Biden is a rational adult who knew how to deal with it without escalating it into a national farce, and Trump isn't.
"No evidence that the document were of any consequence or that there was any harm to what Trump did."
Do you really believe that the law should only be outcome-based? So if I throw someone off of a building and they miraculously aren't injured, I'm not guilty of anything?
If you aren't allowed to retain documents and you try to do so anyway by intentionally hiding them, knowing they aren't yours, that fits the crime he was accused of.
I have read it. I just think when it's a leading candidate best to let the voters decide than to allow an Executive Branch Department under a sitting President who standing for reelection insert itself into an election.
You can say all you like about no one being above the law, and you're right, but there is no way to do that and have the next President whomever they are look legitimate.
You just can't be prosecuting candidates for high office.
Let's say hypothetically everything Biden has been accused of is proven incontraverably true. He is still untouchable until after he is defeated or serves his 2nd term.
But Trump was defeated?
Did I miss something or is he not now the frontrunning Republican candidate?
Should have done something back in 2020 then.
I'm not following.
You said that Biden was untouchable "until after he is defeated". Trump was defeated in the same way that Biden is about to be, if Trump doesn't get the GOP nomination. Why, then, is Trump still untouchable?
He wants a legal loophole where someone can deliberately commit multiple felonies and put national security at risk, and then escape prosecution by announcing they are running for President.
Some would argue that is clearly putting someone above the rule of law, but not a Trump supporter.
There is not the slightest reason to think Trump put national security at risk.
You can consult Artie’s glee that Trump will supposedly be spending his time in court or in jail to see why these bogus charges are viewed as a partisan assault on our democracy.
Though I WAS surprised that the DOJ is trying to pull this off in Florida rather than DC.
"There is not the slightest reason to think Trump put national security at risk."
Sure, except for showing defense secrets to random, uncleared people.
"Though I WAS surprised that the DOJ is trying to pull this off in Florida rather than DC."
Honest people don't assume juries are incapable of making fair decisions that go against their political preferences.
For conspiracy theorists, on the other hand, that is a given. Along with the assumption that all jury members are rabid partisans, not ordinary people who often don't care about politics.
Kind of ironic you say he's running to protect himself from prosecution, when people are going after him so as to try to get him disqualified from running.
Abuse of rules for me but not for thee.
They should have done something back in 2020 for the criminal conduct he committed in 2021 and 2022?
You just can’t be prosecuting candidates for high office.
Why not? One of the problems with democracy is that people could decide that they like someone despite clearly criminal conduct. Or, they use motivated reasoning to deny what is obviously criminal conduct to everyone not a fan of that candidate.
The only danger in prosecuting politicians or candidates for office is if the charges actually are bogus. Trump's biggest fans may never trust any jury that convicts him of a crime (even if he was on video shooting someone on 5th Avenue), but Trump's boast about that was in no way admirable or desirable in America.
Because ultimately the voters are the final judge as to who represents them, not the Federal Code and certainly not a Department of the Executive Branch.
Judges get to do at least some judging. About crimes and stuff,
No, the voters do not decide; the electoral college does, and proponents of the EC can’t have it both ways. You cannot say, on the one hand, “this is not a democracy which is why we have the EC” and then simultaneously say that the voters should be the ultimate arbiters of who represents them.
And here’s the nightmare scenario: a convicted felon wins the electoral college with only 40 percent of the popular vote, which happens to be mathematically possible, and then spends the next four years taking vengeance on those who supported the rule of law. If that happens, and the possibility can’t be ruled out, America as we know it will cease to exist.
Or, if someone is elected, and it turns out that she is an alien from outer space (but born/hatched in America and has been alive for 35+ Earth years). I mean, we can't rule out the possibility. So, let's modify our laws and standards to account for that possibility as well.
Sheesh.
The possibility that I’ve posited is far more likely than the one you’ve posited.
Your argument that the voters don't pick the president because the mechanism by which they do so is the electoral college is as ridiculous as you are.
By what twisted logic do you claim that the popular vote loser was the choice of the voters?
¨Because ultimately the voters are the final judge as to who represents them, not the Federal Code and certainly not a Department of the Executive Branch.¨
What, pray tell, is your point? Being indicted, or even convicted, will not prevent Donald Trump from running for office, nor will it prevent his supporters from voting for him. If the electorate is foolish enough to elect a criminal president, we will get what we deserve.
It won’t stop him campaigning when the corrupt DOJ and courts aren’t interfering with his campaigning.
But, he only has to beat Basement Dementia Joe, who can’t be trusted to campaign without fouling his diapers or shaking hands with invisible people, so there’s that.
The voters have already spoken - those laws were passed by the people we've elected over the many years and we have never voted people in to repeal them.
Trump willfully decided to break them, thumbing his nose at the Government every step of the way. He prevented his lawyer from finding all of the documents in response to the subpoena, and then suggested that anything really bad he did find should be 'oopsied' into thin air.
He stored them unsecured in a place known to be a spy magnet, and knowingly showed classified information to those he knew were not cleared to see it.
But we need to let new voters decide whether the laws we've passed should be enforced against Trump.
"He stored them unsecured in a place known to be a spy magnet,"
What was this place that sounds like Biden's garage or Clinton's server?
Wow, you don't even know where it was?
How would prosecution of Trump prevent bigoted hayseeds from voting for their tiny-fingered man?
Why would they want to vote for you, again?
Republicans would never vote for me.
I blame my education, my reliance on reason, my disdain for bigots, and my refusal to appease deplorable culture war casualties.
The clingers love that short-fingered and vainglorious vulgarian, though!
Why not? One of the problems with democracy is that people could decide that they like someone despite clearly criminal conduct.
I thought that's how elections, and the law work.
People decide.
In the law, People decide the facts and the law. In this case, the Government is abusing the law way more than Trump is.
All of this is nothing but process crimes.
The People should have more power than the Government to decide if a crime should be prosecuted. We have decades of law concerning the handling of sensitive information. Lots of examples of the govt ignoring the letter of the law, in such matters. Exactly why cant the people make the same decision?
'The People should have more power than the Government to decide if a crime should be prosecuted'
You want to have a national plebiscite on Trump's indictment?
Yes, It is called an election. what is your problem with that?
Just consider it a large jury....
My problem with that is it's not exactly a court of law.
That's not how the Constitution works, nor how any system should work. The People are not the appropriate jury to judge guilt - it turns it into a popularity contest not a finding. A jury is the representative of the People, no less than politicians. That should suffice.
I will bet that pretty much everyone here trying to devise reasons why Trump should skate are law-and-order types in all other circumstances.
Conservatives are law-and-order sticklers when they think black people are going to get the short end. They start insisting on defunding the police, though, whenever the criminal justice system seems ready to hold tax evaders, un-American militia members, a crackpot member of the Federalist Society, or a Republican presidential candidate accountable for criminal conduct.
The People are not the appropriate jury to judge guilt – it turns it into a popularity contest not a finding.
You mean like OJ? What was the long term harm of that
verdictpopularity contest?Our system of justice is designed that some guilty go free. I have way more faith in the People, than today's DoJ.
That is why a jury decides, not the DoJ.
You don't want that, but the people will be able to trash Garland's garbage indictment anyway.
Would it include testimony delivered under oath by the candidate and witnesses? Otherwise it's not much of a legal process.
Former attorney general Bill Barr, after reading the document, says Trump is "toast" ('if even half of it is true . . .').
Gandydancer, after reading the Volokh Conspiracy, Fox News, FreeRepublic, Stormfront, and Breitbart, claims the indictment is garbage and figures his fellow half-educated wingnuts will trash it.
Garland, of course, has nothing to do with it.
“ All of this is nothing but process crimes.”
A lie fit for a Trumptard to be sure.
Since you have no interest in even remotely being truthful, to the Fuck Off and Mute list you go.
Patently not true. The reason for things like the 4th Amendment is to stop the king from going on fishing expeditions of opponents to find something, any illegality, to bring down that opponent.
My usual disclaimer: the only side I defend is the anti-weasel behavior side.
"...if the charges are actually bogus."
Thus, they aren't fishing expeditions. And there was no fishing expedition to start any of this. Trump had over a year to resolve the issue quietly and to the satisfaction of the National Archives and then more months to avoid subpoenas and finally a search. Thus, the search was not a fishing expedition because they had specific evidence that the subpoena was not fulfilled and that it was willfully obstructed.
Investigations of political figures (opponents of the current administration or not) do need to be handled with as much independence from politics as is possible, even beyond the protections afforded to ordinary citizens. No one has shown evidence that Trump was afforded anything but far more deference and opportunity to cooperate than any ordinary citizen would have been in the same circumstances. The potential abuse of the current government targeting opponents or refusing to investigate allies is not reason to make them above the law. No one can be above the law, or the rule of law doesn't exist.
That may be the perspective from can't-keep-up rural Pennsylvania, but educated, skilled, reasoning, modern Americans in strong, successful, educated communities are making the decision.
He is being prosecuted.
Ask someone with a law degree to explain it to you. If you need to drive through four or five towns to find a lawyer, it would be worth it.
Speak with mine on an almost daily basis. He's a client of mine. Between my expertise in all things Russian and his in Law we have great discussions.
Granted this week he is in Argentina and most of the conversation is about his trip yesterday to Iguazu Falls.
If you need help as a primer I can send you a link to the Wikipedia Article. I don't want to loose the poorly educated behind.
Why did you capitalize "Law?"
Is it to demonstrate your disdain for "elites" and their fancy standard English? Or are you just another illiterate hayseed from America's can't-keep-up backwaters?
I asked the new Bing: “In general, ‘law’ is not capitalized unless it is the first word of a sentence or part of a title. However, you might capitalize it if you’re referring to 'law' as an institution or societal phenomenon…”
Boy, Coach Sandusky really bitter about the PA locals.
I try to look at the bright side with respect to uneducated, intolerant, obsolete, gullible conservatives -- I am grateful my children and grandchildren get to compete economically with those disaffected right-wing losers!
AIDS, your grandkids will be Breiviked by the American right because of you and your actions.
You understand that, right? Your grandkids are NOT going to grow up.
Your country is on the decline, AIDS.
This serves as part of the evidence.
Carry on, clinger. Till your country collapses.
I expectAmerica to prevail against all right-wing asswipes, foreign and domestic.
Who cares about left or right, you parochial American ignoramus. (Though YOU are surely a domestic enemy of your constitutional republic, of science, and of free thinking people everywhere.)
Your entire culture and politics is dying, AIDS. Your American empire is crumbling. You aren't the future of anything.
America has chunks of guys like you -- and countries like yours -- in its stool.
THAT'S the best you can do now???
Keep trolling, AIDS, and pretend that your life isn't a worthless piece of shit (and that your country isn't on the decline).
'That may be the perspective from can’t-keep-up rural Pennsylvania, but educated, skilled, reasoning, modern Americans in strong, successful, educated communities are making the decision'.
Bigotry. Acceptable bigotry?
AIDS, why are you such a mindless, hypocritical moron? Do you think it's a function of your inferior education? Your putrid American culture? Your inferior genes? Some combination thereof?
Just kidding, AIDS: your opinion on anything is worthless.
Carry on, AIDS, till your American betters Breivik your family.
You just can’t be prosecuting candidates for high office.
This is not an unreasonable standard, but I would at least amend it to allow prosecutions over very serious crimes.
Certainly, the Bragg case isn’t serious enough. And I tend to agree this case isn’t because Trump wasn’t handing over secrets to our enemies. Instead, he was acting like his usual asshole self in believing the rules don’t apply to him. And while that’s deplorable, it could be better left for the voters to decide.
On the other hand, the accusations surrounding Trump’s attempts to steal the election, including the Georgia case, qualify in my view as being serious enough.
That didn't happen either.
Do your delusions get in the way of your reality?
Gandy, I know a good proctologist who might be able to help you find your head.
I'll repeat: "Trump’s attempts to steal the election, including the Georgia case" are as entirely imaginary as is your proctologist or MC's "reality".
Forgot to take your meds again I see.
“Certainly, the Bragg case isn’t serious enough.”
Agreed. Overreach texted his wife and said “I need to update my resume. This guy is just too good at my job.”.
“because Trump wasn’t handing over secrets to our enemies”
He showed military secrets to random people that had no security clearance at all and whose entanglements he was clueless about. He couldn’t know if he were exposing military secrets to our enemies, and neither do you.
The argument that such a blatant violation of defense secrets isn’t the worst version of betraying the country (active espionage for a foreign enemy) and therefore it’s perfectly fine is ridiculous.
“it could be better left for the voters to decide”
Voters should decide if he’s a criminal or if he should hold office? I strongly disagree with the former one and, even of he is convicted, it doesn’t prevent the latter.
“the accusations surrounding Trump’s attempts to steal the election, including the Georgia case, qualify in my view as being serious enough.”
It’s worse from a (small d) democratic perspective, but not from a national security perspective. If some of the military secrets he took, used random employees to move around, and stored in public areas have disappeared, would he even know?
But yes, the Georgia case and his unrelenting lies about losing are very significant and very bad.
Good thing I didn't make that argument. I said Trump's willful neglect is not bad enough to take the judgment away from the voters.
He showed military secrets to random people that had no security clearance at all and whose entanglements he was clueless about. He couldn’t know if he were exposing military secrets to our enemies, and neither do you.
If you wanted to pass classified informant to China, how would you do it?
Maybe you could move the classified information to your office, that is built and owned by the Chinese. And the Chinese have full access to.
You only "know" what the corrupt DoJ want's you to know.
Do you wipe your memory, every morning when you wake up?
6 years of RUSSIA!!! ? It was ALL fabricated. Every single bit.
But you being the clueless, Charlie Brown, desperately need Lucy to validate you...this time for real.
There was an actual Chinese spy caught at Mar A Lago.
Yes, CAUGHT an actual Chinese spy....again..."We have bee told"
Vs Biden being in league with China.
Two very different things.
Yeah an actual Chinese spy, and it's safe to assume there was more than one, versus online bullshit.
And these spies were successfully breaking into Trump's quarters? Or paying $millions to Trump Jr in return for who knows what?
All they had to do was go to the bathroom. And, no, they paid Ivanka and Jared.
“All they had to do was go to the bathroom” is a odd attempt to provide a misleading answer answer to “And these spies were successfully breaking into Trump’s quarters?”. Do you think we’re as stupid as you are and will forget what the question was?
New Bing: “I couldn’t find any information about Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner being paid by the Chinese government.” Tell us more.
Versis "According to a report by the Washington Post, CEFC China Energy, which has close ties to the Chinese Communist Party and People’s Liberation Army, paid entities controlled by Hunter Biden or his uncle James Biden $4.8 million over the course of 14 months beginning in 2017"
Going to the bathropom is all they had to do to access files.
Look harder.
...and?
Nige clearly knows nothing about the hospitality business.
Rooms and entire wings of buildings are routinely closed off for a variety of reasons including maintenance and the public is locked out of them. They are often used for storage and depending on what is being stored, they may be recored so that very few people can get in. It isn't like just walking into the bathroom.
And where was that spy caught -- there are layers upon layers of security...
Yeah, sounds amazingly secure.
and it’s safe to assume there was more than one,
WOW! I totally forgot about the "safe to assume" branch of jurisprudence.... That whole evidence thing is so over used. You got me.
Good thing China only ever had that one spy.
What the fuck are you talking about?
Brandon....
What the fuck are you talking about?
So you know nothing about the Penn Biden Center? That explains your cluelessness.
Explain the Chinese ownership of the building bit.
Comer's letter stated: "In the 37 months of available reporting prior to the announcement of the Biden Center, the University received about $21,187,333 from China.
"In contrast, in the 39 months of available reporting since the announcement of the Biden Center, the University received $72,274,675 from China—an increase of $51,087,342 in a similar time frame."
I know the Penn Biden Center (a) was not built by the Chinese; (b) was not owned by the Chinese; and (c) the Chinese did not have full access to it. So I repeat: what the fuck are you talking about?
so...
(d) China largely paid for the center and
(E) China had at least some access to the center where Biden stored the classified records he was never authorized to have.
That is reassuring.
"You just can’t be prosecuting candidates for high office."
Is this just President? Or is it Congress or governor or the various state representatives? Because many.of those remain in office or running for office for decades. How long should a valid and viable criminal prosecution be delayed?
"Let’s say hypothetically everything Biden has been accused of is proven incontraverably true. He is still untouchable until after he is defeated or serves his 2nd term."
You mean the situation Trump is in right now? Because he was defeated in 2020.
Is this just President? Or is it Congress or governor or the various state rep
Well, the other offices are actually decided in State elections. While the Presidency is also a state election. The President runs the DoJ, and has the power to direct the agency against his political rivals.
Bob Mendez is a possible corollary. Its also a good example to use when Democrats demand McCarthy remove Santos from office.
So do you remove a congressman from office when accused of a crime? Or do you wait for the trial?
Just because you have the power, does not mean it is proper to use the power.
No prosecution of anyone who has ever been on the final ballot as candidate for President. Ever.
We gave up a whole lot more than any of us will ever realize last Friday with the indictment. We are now a Banana Republic.
"No prosecution of anyone who has ever been on the final ballot as candidate for President. Ever."
Well, sure. But the only other President who did things that would justify serious criminal charges was Nixon, and Ford pardoned him.
So no President who could be prosecuted has been as big a criminal as Trump. About that, you are correct.
"We are now a Banana Republic."
You clearly didn't read the post. But if prosecuting a criminal who used to hold the highest office in the land makes a "banana republic", then Ireland just joined the fairly list of major developed democracies that are "banana republics".
Hang on, if they ever come for Michael D there will be actual blood on the streets. But that's just the difference between 'genuinely beloved' and 'populist quasi-fascist hatemonger.'
I just think when it’s a leading candidate best to let the voters decide
And they will be able to. Nothing in this prosecution will prevent Trump from running for office, winning, and pardoning himself.
Unlike Bragg's prosecution, of course.
And the one in Georgia.
True. The state law prosecutions won't prevent Trump from running and winning, but they might prevent him from pardoning himself.
In this not-politically-motivated prosecution...
Interfering with Trump form CAMPAIGNING by requiring him to appear in court or go to jail is a far greater assault on our democracy than anything ever alleged against the Russians.
Out of curiosity, how much actual campaigning has Trump been doing lately?
Too much. The whole system is a media driven farce, A new president is sworn in and the immediate speculation is about the next election.
"You can say all you like about no one being above the law, and you’re right, but there is no way to do that and have the next President whomever they are look legitimate."
That too -- and forget the Jan 6 Frat Party, you'd have *real* insurrections. Even if half the country adopted jury nullification en masse, think of the consequences -- none good...
And think what the 2026 election would become when such lawfare extended to Congressional candidates and state/county DAs....
Then the smart strategy for anyone threatened with prosecution who is eligible to run for the presidency would be to run a losing campaign, lose, immediately announce their candidacy for the next election, and repeat ad mortem.
No such loophole for the foreign born, under 35, or two-term Presidents though!
Once on the general election ballot is enough for me.
And far more guilty go free via the exclusionary rule.
I have read it. I just think when it’s a leading candidate best to let the voters decide than to allow an Executive Branch Department under a sitting President who standing for reelection insert itself into an election.
That makes no sense. Why should the voters decide whether Trump is a criminal? They'll get a chance to vote for him, or not, regardless.
Heh. Desantis' words yesterday, 'We can't have one faction of society weaponizing the government against another faction of society.'
I mean, the entire conservative/republican party is just...bankrupt, mendacious. Completely imploding from lies and crimes. I'm sorry to see it happen, yet happen it has.
Defending the guy you're running against when he gets indicted is not the sign of someone with their heart really in the fight.
There's that. But I'm mostly referring to the 'weaponizing government part'. That one's a bit rich for Desantis
"But Trump supporters are not well-positioned to complain about it, given they were happy to see it shield Trump himself while he was in office."
Mind-reading is bad persuasion. Also, this never happened, so it's doubly unpersuasive.
You think Trump supporters were unhappy or indifferent that Trump was shielded from prosecution while President?
No, I clearly said "this never happened". Did you get lost between the first and second sentences of my post?
Trump being not prosecuted because he was President never happened?
That is something the Mueller Report explicitly said.
IAW new Bing: “According to the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel, a sitting president cannot be charged with a federal crime[]. This policy was part of former special counsel Robert Mueller’s decision to REFRAIN FROM CONSIDERING an indictment of President Donald Trump1. Additionally, two top aides to then-Attorney General William Barr said Trump’s acts wouldn’t have merited obstruction charges even if he were not immune as president.[]”
As did Durham, iirc. So, no, it is not in evidence that Trump was not prosecuted because he was President. And if prosecuted he would certainly have been found not guilty, since Russia Russia Russia was patently as much of a joke of a partisan hoax as the impeachments or this just-like-the- Biden-Papers attempt to interfere with our democracy.
Almost certainly!
Way to prove Somin's point against Kleppe's attack.
Anyway, maybe Trump'll be acquitted of this too.
Trump was un-indicted co conspirator no 1 in the case that sent his lawyer Michael Cohen to prison. The policy about not charging sitting presidents would have been relevant to the 'un-indicted co-conspirator' since the actions occurred in the run up to his winning that election and the payments were made to Cohen while he was actively the President.
That is something the Mueller Report explicitly said.
Barr ordered Mueller to list all all crimes, and the supporting elements of those crimes, in his reports> </Mueller Wieseman had nothing.
If there was something why not charge it? Get it in front of SCOTUS and settle it. The reason is because there was nothing to charge. Even
MuellerWiesemen wasn't willing to go into court with charges that lacked needed elements.You should read things.
Why didn't Weiseman state the crimes, people claim Trump committed?
It did not say it. If it had you would have quoted it, rather than insisting.
If the only reason he wasn't charged under Mueller was that he was President, why wasn't he charged the day he left office? (This is the part where you make something up)
"So far, however, the evidence suggests that Biden did not take them deliberately, and (unlike Trump) he turned them over as soon as it became clear he had them."
Sure, if you're totally credulous, that sounds plausible.
"Moreover, when the server was discovered by authorities, she turned it over to them, instead of trying to stonewall, as Trump did."
OK, now you're just hallucinating.
Professor Somin evidently suffers from a lack of candor = hallucination
Maybe he was testing out ChatGPT? That's the sort of thing it might have generated.
My understanding is that Clinton cooperated with the FBI investigation. What makes you think otherwise?
It was a long time ago, but wasn't there some kerfuffle about deleting 30,000 emails ? And Bleachbit ?
Though if the FBI is feeling co-operative then presumably there's all sorts of things consistent with co-operation, that might be otherwise if they were feeling unco-operative.
Of course there was an accusation that Clinton had intentionally destroyed incriminating evidence. That's part of what the FBI investigated. My challenge was for people to back up their claims Clinton did not cooperate with that investigation. And no, your conspiracy theory that FBI was in on it doesn't cut the mustard.
She had her minions wipe the server than had her staff smash their phones with hammers.
You're relying upon the FBI not making hay about as your proof she was cooperating.
Of course the FBI didn't make hay about it. They were protecting her.
Yes, we're relying on the relevant agency deciding that it didn't amount to criminal action. You're relying on making up stories to fit your preferred version.
But the relevant agency didn't decide it wasn't a crime. They decided they didn't want to prosecute her for it, which is different.
They decided that they didn't have a case, which is what actually happened.
They had a slam-dunk case. As Brett pointed out they had her emailing minions telling them to print out classified material from the government secure system and send it to her at her unsecure email address, among many other things.
You can claim that all you want, the actual prosecutors disagreed.
See the prosecutors aren't corrupt, they told us so!
lol
Somehow their word is better than yours.
If the State tells you something, you accept it uncritically.
You're a good serf.
If you think that's bad, wait'll you hear what Trump did!
BVD I said BETTER THAN YOURS. Not the same thing, since I don't believe a single word that comes out of your keyboard.
Wiping the server and smashing the phones is what you're supposed to do.
After you receive a subpoena? That's... interesting.
It's a best practice request and it was made prior to any subpoena.
Yes yes the subpoena came before it was completed and that's very frustrating to everyone. But the smashing and wiping is not itself suspect. On the contrary, it would've been suspect if she hadn't cleaned up after herself and instead just left a bunch of sensitive communications lying around on old computers and phones.
...and just how did they get to be on "old computers and phones"?
When you stop being Secretary of State, the computers and phones you were using for that job need to be securely retired.
Even if that's actually correct, the fact remains the emails were not deleted at the time the subpoena issued. And for the little people, "oh, I meant to delete the emails before you subpoenaed them, so I just went ahead and did so afterward" is worse than no excuse at all.
Yes yes. If you have a single instance of HRC expressing "frustration" or any similar negative emotion that relevant evidence was spoliated after the subpoena issued, I'd love to see it.
Who knows if that exists. I’m certainly not going to read her cringeoirs to find out. But whether or not she’s frustrated that the evidence was destroyed, I am sure that she’s frustrated by the timing!
Why in the world would she be frustrated? She got a pass, and has turned the whole subject into an offensive taunt.
Uh, because she's not President?
(Also curious what about "But her emails!" you find offensive.)
She’s not president because she treated the process more like a coronation than a contest. “But my emails” indeed.
Offensive as opposed to defensive.
Since you just picked at the adjective, I take it you agree it's a taunt?
Of course it's a taunt. The Clinton's spent their whole political careers charting out exactly how long the dog's chain was, and then taunting it from just barely out of reach. They were never content with getting away with it, they had a deep seated need for their enemies to KNOW they'd gotten away with it.
Like "finding" the Rose law firm billing records just after the statute of limitations expired. Who does that? Sane people would just have burned them, but the Clintons just had to prove they had them the whole while.
So, of course it's not enough for her to have gotten away with running a private server and deleting stuff after the subpoena was issued. She has to remind people of it while Trump is being prosecuted, to rub it in.
I love a good taunting. One good taunt deserves another.
Got a whole Clinton novella in there, eh?
Listen Brett, even taking your speculative telepathy as fact, the Clintons cannot both be these exceptional supervillain characters and an example of how this law is routinely ignored.
If she had submitted her server for approval, nothing would have happened.
But she did not.
That alone is the crime.
Did you forget that people were trying to make a bullshit equivalence between what Hillary did and Trump?
[misthreaded]
One of the points made is that Clinton supposedly turned over all the work related e-mails.
From the investigation the FBI did however, this clearly wasn't true. They recovered many e-mails from other individuals that Hillary had wiped from her own computer.
The FBI concluded Clinton did not know they had been deleted and thus can't be a lack of cooperation.
HRC recruited volunteers without clearances to read classified emails to go through her emails and delete those they (supposedly) thought need not be turned over to the DOJ. Turns out that it could be clearly demonstrated that they deleted emails that SHOULD have been turned over. The whole process was illegitimate and your, or the FBI’s conclusion, that it was not criminal is simply motivated reasoning. Try to get away with anything like that if you’re not a Clinton or a Biden.
Magic mushrooms!
Did a price from your dealer cause that exclamation?
If intended as a denial of what I said it indicates either ignorance or a lie on your part.
Josh misses the connection with Magic
The magic code
the purple code
jn6 code
Tom is speaking in a language only understood by the initiated few.
Nige 5 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"Tom is speaking in a language only understood by the initiated few."
Nige - I would not expect you to understand since you have such a weak knowledge of historical facts. Though If you did understand , then you would know why Hillary's transgressions were 1000x more damaging to national security than Trumps transgression with mar-
I think the idea that the FBI was protecting Clinton is pure fantasy for people who don't want to confront the reality of Trump.
That the FBI continued to corruptly protect Clinton long after this incident was comprehensively demonstrated by the Durham report.
And thus we see Gandy has not actually read the Durham report to go along with his never having read a Thomas dissent.
The Durham Report showed nothing of the sort.
The Durham Report! rofl, Gandyprancer finally comes through with something worth reading... for the lolz
As the ever-so-lamestream New Bing observes, "...one section of Special Counsel John Durham’s report to Attorney General Merrick Garland confirms again how much fealty and deference was shown to Hillary Clinton while federal agents targeted and investigated Donald Trump[]. This disparate treatment raises concerns about potential political bias[],"
This won't stop reality-deniers like you from denying reality, but preventing that is a Fool's Errand.
Durham said that, but didn't offer it up as more than his opinion.
Your snide claim was that my conclusion demonstrated that I hadn’t read him. You were as usual blatantly lying.
It’s not my fault if you don’t know what show means.
The Durham report had absolutely nothing to say about Clinton's emails! What, you think he also delved into Benghazi and Whitewater? Y'all have had Clinton Derangement Syndrome for nigh on 30 years now. Give it a rest!
If the only thing you know about the Durham Report is Durham’s editorialising, then you didn’t read the Durham Report.
This unfortunately requires suspension of disbelief.
The proper action would have been to hand over the entire server, before ordering your lawyers to get rid of roughly 30,000 e-mails that you "thought" were personal in nature, but many clearly weren't.
But let's say this is what is appropriate. Why was the same "conclusion" not made in the Trump case? Why not assume Trump "thought" he'd turned over all responsive documents?
Again, we have a disparity in the treatment of two different people here.
Evidence.
The evidence of Clinton's corrupt obstruction was overwhelming.
We all know exactly what your shallow worldview is, Gandy. Posting it just as a contradiction is boring as fuck.
So is the evidence that Biden stole the election. We know what that's worth.
In his repeated (about a dozen times just recently?) attempts to deny the existence of arguments that I'm actually making Gaslightr0 recently linked to the Monty Python "Department of Arguments" sketch but, as here, it was on a thread where my observation was in fact backed up by extensive argument up and down that thread. His "don't believe your lying eyes" performances are well past their sell-by date.
Since Nige has responded to previous posts I've made about the plain evidence of vote-stealing at Cobo Hall going uninvestigated I know he knows perfectly well that I've said repeatedly that I am unconvinced that vote manufacture changed the outcome of the election.
Where are you, Randal? I don't want this collection of self-clowning turdishness to be any less complete than necessary.
What are we talking about? I for sure don't want to be left out of the turdburgling!
Josh, you think Trump has committed a crime.
But you dont have anything to back up your conclusion.
(Remember RUSSIA!!!!, before you insist you "know" what the DoJ is telling you.)
You should read the news. Lots of evidence on it.
Lots of evidence Trump was in league with RUSSIA!!!! According to Schiff, Clapper, Wray, and those below him. The DoJ approving FOUR FISA warrants...which all require evidence of a crime.
Sarcastro, aren't you cute...believing what the corrupt DoJ is feeding you.
I don't think Faslightr0's bald-faced lying is "cute".
Oh hay you galloped to a place where your parenthetical is now your whole argument.
No new goalposts. There is evidence Trump committed crimes. It's all over the news. Do you think it was all deepfakes?
It's clear you and Gandy would prefer to talk about something else. And not hard to see why.
True! And Trump was in league with Russia. Just not criminally. And guess what? He wasn't charged. So... what exactly is your point, iowa?
True! And Trump was in league with Russia. Just not criminally. And guess what? He wasn’t charged. So… what exactly is your point, iowa?
Are you play acting? Or honestly this stupid
There was NEVER any evidence to investigate. There was NEVER any evidence to file for a FISA warrant. (today you believe what the DoJ is releasing to the public as fact...ignoring the DoJ lies to the secret FISA court to get a warrant to spy on citizens, and all the people they communicate with, and all the people those people talk to.
Then they renewed the warrant 3 times. Each time swearing under oath, that Each warrant had yielded facts in furtherance of their case. Each renewal required lies.
But you keep believing the LEAKS the DoJ is providing to the media.
“…Trump was in league with Russia. Just not criminally…”
You mean Trump Jr was willing to listen to evidence from Veselnitskaya that HRC was in corrupt league with Russians but that her info from Fusion GPS was almost as much garbage as the Steele Dossier Fusion GPS had produced which went unmentioned in their report on Clinton despite being the actual product of her being in corrupt league with Russians?
At least you're no longer claiming that Jr's willingness to hear her out was criminal. I certainly heard plenty of that at the time.
Yeah basically. Trump (Sr.)'s still got a fat rubbery one for Putin for some unfathomable reason (except it's totally fathomable: he doesn't care about the country at all but he sure is gay for dictators!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKxPfVozof8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dax8KvfPXPI
Hillary's server was turned over after the emails had been deleted.
Even Comey had to admit she made many false statements, including that she had not turned over all work related documents.
You mean she lied when she said that she did.
I'm not sure what server she turned over. The one in her bathroom that she hadn't used for more than a year or so? Was that the one she Bit-Bleached? Because the actual servers she had most recently been using were in a server farm.
I watched part of one of your links and the reporter keeps bringing up to Hillary's lying spokesman that the destruction of allegedly personal emails had been judged criminal in a similar case,
Hmm... it has floated to the surface of my memory that the bathroom in question was even less secure than Hillary's, but was the one in the office of the crony who was setting up the server farm business. So, when was she even using a server of her own?
There were no FBI raids to secure anything from Biden or Clinton, who turned over the server to the FBI.
No, there weren't, but the difference is that the DOJ is corrupt.
Proof needed.
Open your fucking eyes!
That's not proof. Biden not prosecuted for an alleged bribe that doesn't exist except in the feverish imaginations of Trump worshipers or for circumstances drastically different from Trump's? Hunter Biden not yet crucified? Clinton endlessly investigated and not prosecuted during all four years of the Trump administration? All of these just make you look like a clown.
I agree that Trump is a clown who had no more intention of locking Hillary up than he did of building a wall. But my motivation for pretending that the evidence of her crimes is less than compelling is not as pretextually blinding as yours.
Your motivation is partisan blindness.
But Biden!
But Hillary!
Not a single comment from you yet actually discussing any facts laid out in the indictment.
Where’s the “But Pence!”? Oh…right.
Good news, Partisan Clown; Vinyl is making a comeback of late; you can fix your broken record.
Let's have some fun with this. Trump's stance is that the docs were declassified when he had them sent to Mar-A-Lago. And in fact given Navy v Egan that means they were. So, how does one square this with his later actions.
Possibility one, take some interesting facts and show them to someone whose support you are courting. Their reaction? Mild interest at most. Take those same facts, shroud them in secrecy and a bit of illicit framing, as if the person is special for being allowed to see them and the person who has them is powerful, and their reaction will be to feel as if the person showing them the 'illicit' information depends on them and their judgement. Is that the action of a long running businessman whose ego is twice the size of his head? I think it is.
Possibility two, he tossed a bunch of documents in with the others that were more serious than he thought, and only realized it after he was back at Mar-A-Lago. The documents were still declassified given his standing order, but the issue is that he would look like a moron if he just took them back. As for why he showed them to anybody, I refer you to the fact his ego is twice the size of his head and it would curry him favor with that individual.
As for which of the possibilities is more likely, that depends entirely on the actual secrets. Given the various alphabet agencies regularly classify anything that makes them look even remotely bad no matter it's relevance to actual state secrets, and that the nuclear classification tells us nothing as plenty of nuclear 'classified' material is worthless as an advantage to an enemy state, and the end result is that the entire thing is bullshit.
That is the stance of the shameless sycophants still trying to defend Trump. Not only has Trump never claimed to have declassified the documents, he allowed himself to be recorded saying that he hadn’t.
Not only has Trump never claimed to have declassified the documents,</i'
The term was 'stance'. You changed it to 'claim '.
Trump has yet to be charged with mishandling classified documents. No need to defend against charges not made.
When Garland submits evidence, then the defense can challenge the legitimacy of the warrant. The warrant never mentions classified material. So what "crime" is the warrant in search of?
'Trump’s stance is that the docs were declassified when he had them sent to Mar-A-Lago.'
Trump's been spraying lots of word-sewage, has he actually made this claim in any of it?
Nige puts his determined ignorance on display again.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classified-documents.html
Ooh, he is getting desperate.
And yet a Princeton undergrad wrote a paper on how to build an atomic bomb, including how to obtain the materials, and all from public or declassified sources. In the 1970s, before Google…
https://www.nytimes.com/1976/10/09/archives/student-designs-2000-atom-bomb.html
Navy v. Egan! What the fuck??? Where did you get that talking point? It's a stinker! That case was about who gets the final decision to grant or deny a security clearance, not presidential telepathy.
You have to be retarded to think that the president can telepathically declassify. So... is there any evidence at all of this "standing order" other than Trump's (out of court) blustering? For example, if it really existed, a lot of things would've gotten declassified over his tenure... is there any evidence that anything actually got declassified by the "standing order?" No. Because it didn't exist.
Maybe... at first...?? But not once they got requested... and then subpoenaed... and then he gave some back... why not all? It stops being an innocent, embarrassing accident somewhere during that year-and-a-half struggle to keep them.
You have to be retarded to think that the president can telepathically declassify.
You sound like an expert that has scooby doo'ed the hell out of the declassification process.
Tell us exactly what the minimum actions are required of the President of the United States to declassify. Include your source.
My source? I have functional brain cells. Why don't you show me any law / organization / rule / precedent / opinion in any context where telepathic instructions are valid.
"The basis of my appeal is that I objected to the submission of the evidence with my mind, which counts, so therefore the evidence must be excluded." That's retarded old you.
Its on the laptop.
There is no power that can challenge the claim made by the President.
Oh ha that makes sense. You think we already live in a dictatorship. No wonder you're so freaked out!
The President of the United States is the Dictator of the Executive Branch.
Classification, is the invention of the Executive Branch. Live 100% in the environment of the Executive Branch.
If the President says it is declassified, their is no person, officer of office, that has more constitutional power than the President.
Not a single comment from you yet actually discussing any facts laid out in the indictment.
What facts?
What I see are claims made by a proven corrupt Biden team. ie political grifters.
A proven corrupt Biden team? Can we expect that you’ll be revealing this proof today?
You still think the Biden laptop is Russian disinformation, eh.
Then there's this: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-allegedly-paid-5-million-by-burisma-executive
It's remarkable how "ignorant" you can remain when you want to be.
The FBI is slow-walking this, but that the Biden family is corrupt is no longer in doubt. And the idea that hisson and his brother are corrupt but Dementia Joe isn't is risible.
'allegedly' kinda suggests lots of doubt, tbh.
The Bidens were paid. Lavishly and repeatedly. The idea that Dementia Joe got so rich on his salary without participating in the corruption that we have proof he knew about is the extraordinary claim requiring more evidence. Show your wok.
That's the claim, yes. Evidence? Not so much. The Crow/Thomas, thing, on the other hand...
All that is true but it seems as if Trump pissed away any chance of mens rea.
Someone who knew something about the Clinton email business and similar cases once said:
Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case. Prosecutors necessarily weigh a number of factors before bringing charges. There are obvious considerations, like the strength of the evidence, especially regarding intent. Responsible decisions also consider the context of a person’s actions, and how similar situations have been handled in the past.
In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted involved some combination of: clearly intentional and willful mishandling of classified information; or vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct; or indications of disloyalty to the United States; or efforts to obstruct justice. We do not see those things here.
Sound familiar?
But Comey was lying and corrupt, so I don’t see your point.
Everyone who disagrees with Gandydancer is corrupt.
No, you're just lying, as far as I know.
Or are you a paid parasite like Gaslightr0?
Just observing what you say.
Paranoid, too.
“So far, however, the evidence suggests that Biden did not take them deliberately, and (unlike Trump) he turned them over as soon as it became clear he had them.”
Sure, if you’re totally credulous, that sounds plausible.
You have evidence to the contrary? Did he store them in a ballroom that was regularly used for parties, weddings, etc.?
Get a grip.
Hunter Biden had pictures of them on his laptop.
Along with naked pictures of his underage niece.
lmao
"Hunter Biden had pictures of them on his laptop."
What? Even for you, this is batshit crazy.
Also the actual Ark Of The Covenant.
Along with pictures of the Loch Ness monster and a yeti.
"...the evidence suggests that Biden did not take them deliberately, and (unlike Trump) he turned them over as soon as it became clear he had them.”
What evidence?
Btw, New Bing: “Yes, there are pictures on Hunter Biden’s laptop that show a box labeled “Important Doc’s + Photos” left unsealed on a table in President Joe Biden’s Delaware home.”
Magicked there totally non-deliberately, of course. Because evidence.
"What evidence?"
The fact that when they were found the response was, "Oh, shit. Yeah, we shouldn't have those." And they were returned. Exactly like what happened with Pence.
"show a box labeled “Important Doc’s + Photos”"
What? LOL! Everyone who has ever moved from one house to another has a box labeled that way.
Let me guess. You have X-ray vision that can see through the boxes in that picture and you can see the confidential files, right?
Between this and ‘Big Guy’ you guys sure have a highly variable conception of what constitutes solid evidence.
Hunter wrote (signed?) reports to his foreign "investors" about foreign nations defense strategies and such.It is clear the reports were taken directly from US govt intel. The FBI could easily connect the dots, but the FBI is corrupt. Nothing but the secret police under control of he Democrat Party.
You got sources on this intel laden Hunter defense and such report?
Mr. Bellmore, aside from the delusional ultra leftists here, it's understood that you possess a superior legal mind, certainly greater than any practicing lawyers here. What would be your surefire means of exonerating President Trump in a trial?
Brett Bellmore will stride into the courtroom, waving Obama's Kenyan Muslim socialist birth certificate.
And sweet infant lord baby eight-pound, six-ounce Jesus will accompany him, wearing a tuxedo t-shirt, with giant eagle wings, singing lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd.
Carry on, clingers.
Fuck you, Jerry
Didn’t realize he was your type, Frank.
Fuck you too
You're definitely not my type, so thank you but no.
And I would never tell you to fuck yourself because that would just mean there's twice as much of you in the gene pool.
Trump fans seem especially cranky lately.
Which is great!
Carry on, clingers.
Such language in front of the baby Jesus!
You offer no evidence Brett. This is pretty regular for you I suppose.
Note also that Trump is being charged with way more than even your made up Biden crime. And with *actual evidence*!
tapes and whatnot of him basically delivering mens rea.
You have accusing everyone who doesn’t agree with you of being credulous, and accusing Prof Somin of not having the facts. Which adds up to nothing.
Look, let's be clear about this: Somin says she cooperated by turning over the server, Somin knows she wiped it first, rendering it forensically worthless. It's the equivalent of Trump incinerating the rest of the boxes after shipping them the first tranche, and then shipping them the ashes when they asked for more.
I charitably called that "hallucinating", but let's be real, it was a lie.
And, no, it isn't credible that Clinton didn't know she had classified information. She was Secretary of State, she routinely handled classified information. She actually discussed sending classified information over unsecure channels in one email chain! She also claimed she didn't understand classified markings, you believe that, too?
Do I think Trump violated the law? Yeah, I do. I think this is a law that's routinely violated by "important" people, and this is a case of politically selective prosecution.
Well, damn that Trump DOJ for letting her get away with it.
I do. Also Trump for being a jackass and causing that to happen.
All he did was appoint a special prosecutor to investigate her.
Nige demonstrates determined ignorance on stilts again.
Trump never appointed a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton.
Oops, you're right. Everything short of that, though. SO many investigations. And not a single charge, nor any proof of wrongdoing. And how many times has Trump tried to sue her. too?
“ I think this is a law that’s routinely violated by “important” people, and this is a case of politically selective prosecution.”
Do you know why you can’t address the facts of Trump’s conduct and actually cite examples of your belief?
Because you’re full of shit.
Biden, Pence, Obama, Clinton... many more, Mr. Shit-for-brains.
Somin is blatantly lying. Even more blatantly than you generally do, Gaslightr0.
You make this accusation and back it up with mostly yelling, some ipse dixit. Because in the end you are shallow and lazy. And boring.
Both your lying and Somin's and your attempts to gaslight us about it are what's really boring. There's no need to repeat the unanswered evidence on this page and many others.
The closest thing I’ve seen to real banana republic behavior was done by Trump, who ordered his Justice Department to prosecute the person he defeated in the 2016 election. (They looked into Hillary’s behavior and could find nothing to prosecute.)
Yeah, Onogga ordering his banking regulators to target gun stores in Choke Point wasn't banana republicesque at all. Not at all.
Why does this right-wing "legal" blog attract such a remarkable concentration of bigoted fans and bigoted comments?
Could it be the proprietor's habitual use of vile racial slurs? The calculated cultivation of an audience of gay-bashers, racists, antisemites, Islamophobes, immigrant-haters, and misogynists? Or it is just unavoidable that a blog operated by Federalist Society members will have bigoted fans?
Does the Volokh Conspiracy generate bigots, or merely attract them?
Why do you keep repeating the same pablum, AIDS? Is it some partial recognition of your incompetency to address the merits of issues? Is it because you feel it's your duty, as an American, to be a mindless bullshitter?
I like rubbing bigots’ noses in their racism, homophobia, misogyny, xenophobia, antisemitism, Islamophobia, and general deplorability. A reliable place to find bigots and bigotry is the Volokh Conspiracy. Plus, it’s easier to visit the Volokh Conspiracy than it would be to attend a bunch of Federalist Society events.
But you're a bigot and Islamophobe, AIDS! You HATE religion, You HATE Islam! You hate all religions! You hate the poor! You hate the uneducated who are uneducated because they are poor!
You're a dumb ox, AIDS. How can you rub something in others' faces when your entire culture and country is doomed? What are you celebrating: your country becoming openly authoritarian and Orwellian during its decline and fall? You're missing the forest for the trees. How pathetic.
You've also dedicated YEARS of your life to childish trolling. You're a total loser! EVERY post of yours is further confirmation of your being inferior.
And then there Obongo's weaponization of the IRS.
Obongo.
Newcomers to the Volokh Conspiracy might be surprised by the remarkable intensity of the multifaceted bigotry exhibited by the Volokh Conspirators and their conservative audience, and wondering whether this is just an uncommon wrinkle.
Bigotry is a staple at this white, male, right-wing blog. The proprietor habitually publishes vile racial slurs. This not only attracts a target audience of racists, immigrant-haters, gay-bashers, Islamophobes, antisemites, and misogynists but also signals to these vestigial bigots that the Volokh Conspiracy is a safe space for bigots and bigotry.
Think I'm kidding, or misstating the record? Take a guess concerning how many distinct discussions at this blog have featured vile racial slurs (often multiple slurs) in just the first five months of this year. Then take a crack at how many times it occurred during 2022.
Be prepared to be pleased (if you're a Republican, conservative, Federalist Society member, or faux libertarian clinger) or disgusted (if you are a modern, educated, reasoning American mainstreamer).
At least 20% of the bigoted content comes from you, AIDS.
Carry on, AIDS, till the day when you're holding your dead, Breiviked grandchildren in your arms.
You don't know who Obongo is?
Just say nigger, it’s clear you want to.
That's not racial at all, is it? = Obongo
No need to add race to the mix. There is plenty to tear apart POTUS Obama for, on policy grounds. And legal grounds (assassinating American citizens abroad, as one example). He and people who think like him continue to harm this country; that is true.
I’m not interested in pretending that it’s wrong to deride race hustlers like Obongo for being what they are. Nasty POS don't get to demand politesse in return.
"They looked into Hillary’s behavior and could find nothing to prosecute.)"
lmao you f'n people i swear
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-investigation-idUSKBN1Z905V
We know what they said. We also have the Durham report which shows that the FBI was corrupt where it came to Clinton. And we know the evidence that would have convicted her. And Trump was too much of a gormless wanna-be to follow through on getting her locked up as she clearly deserved to be,.
I suspect you're too stupid to know what confirmation bias is, so look it up.
Again, the Durham report shows beyond doubt that the FBI was corrupt when it came to Clinton. As if we didn’t already know that. Now I *KNOW* that your capacity for demonstrative stupidity is infinite, but my low opinion of Durham has been put repeatedly on record and I am not constrained to join him in any refusals of his to admit the obvious, nor to applaud his egregious delays.
No it didn't.
Oddly, I seem to remember right after the election, he said, nah, just kidding, not gonna throw her in jail.
So I am surprised to learn they even went as far as you said.
If a politician says a rival politician committed crimes, the solution is to appoint an independent counsel.
Just in case some paranoid person might think there's a conflict of interest.
They no longer have a statute to have the courts appoint independent counsels, but the Attorney General can still look for attorneys with reputations for strict probity (those folks continue to exist) and throw all the allegations on that attorney's lap.
By all means, give the anti-independent-counsel arguments.
The fact that this Smith clown got on TV to tell Americans to read the indictment says it all. He's not independent, regardless of what he says.
Because he ... told people to read the legal document that laid out the charges against Trump?
And you think that proves he isn't independent? What?
Any prosecutor without an axe to grind doesn't make a statement like that.
What? Why not?
Comey lost Clinton the 2016 election by spouting off to the media about charges he wasn’t filing. Now that’s a prosecutor with an axe to grind using it to influence elections.
Telling people to read the indictment is the most neutral, conservative thing Smith could’ve said.
Comey was given a dirty job an honest man wouldn't have taken, and then did a half-way job of it.
He could have said, "The evidence is there, I recommend she be prosecuted." The Democrats would have hated him, the Republicans might have admired it. And somebody higher in the food chain would have dropped the charges.
He could have said, "No evidence, I recommend against charges", and the Democrats would have loved him, and the Republicans hated him.
Instead he split the difference, refusing to pretend there wasn't evidence enough, then producing a BS excuse for no charges. And ended up with both sides hating him.
You're actually making it sound like he didn't take the politics into consideration at all, which is you being mighty generous to him.
"Any prosecutor without an axe to grind doesn’t make a statement like that."
That is a completely nonsensical statement. Telling people to read the facts is somehow duplicitous in your world?
There are no facts in his world.
Yes, because it means he is not disinterested in the outcome.
Of course he's not disinterested. He's the prosecutor. It's his case. His job is to prosecute criminals.
At which he is a motivated failure.
lol @ hoppy… in his world, prosecutors should be ambivalent about crime. Sometimes it's good, sometimes bad. Who's to say?
“Disinterested in the outcome.” Nice.
His name is "Smith"?? I thought it was Hunter Biden.
There are no independent counsels any more; Congress did not renew the post-Watergate law after it was used for partisan ends during the Clinton presidency.
Jack Smith is a special counsel, same as Robert Mueller was when investigating Trump's earlier obstruction of justice. Smith has a reputation for strict probity.
I didn’t know that. Of course, Starr had a reputation for strict probity until he suddenly, mysteriously, was discovered to be a malignant partisan. So reputations rise or fall depending on the political clout of those the prosecutor is messing with.
“Congress did not renew the post-Watergate law after it was used for partisan ends during the Clinton presidency.”
In hindsight, they should have mended it, not ended it. Let grand jurors investigate corruption in high places, and if they smell something fishy issue a presentment. Then the court could appoint a counsel to investigate only those matters mentioned in the presentment. No need to reinvent the wheel here.
That way, if the grand jury is bombarded with accusations that Tweedledee committed a crime, then others could reply with information that Tweedledee's archenemy Tweedledum also committed crimes, and the grand jury (based on the evidence of course) could present both.
As a purely practical matter, how would a grand jury investigate something like this without the assistance of executive branch officials and employees?
They could hire some ex-cop to organize all the material they get. Or maybe the private accuser could compile a file with all the relevant parts clearly marked for easy understanding. Then they could summon officials, ex-officials and journalists willing to blow the whistle. Hearsay is admissible here, of course, so they could even read the journalists’ articles.
I don't think a presentment has to be in legal form, that only happens later when the prosecutor draws up a proposed indictment.
They could hire some ex-cop to organize all the material they get. Or maybe the private accuser could compile a file with all the relevant parts clearly marked for easy understanding. Then they could summon officials, ex-officials and journalists willing to blow the whistle. Hearsay is admissible here, of course, so they could even read the journalists’ articles.
And who is going to manage that process? Issue subpoenas, identify potential witnesses, question them in some sort of coherent fashion? Who is going to understand the law well enough to know which issues should be pursued and which should be dropped?
The independent counsel appointed when the presentment is returned could figure all that out. Put everything into proper legal form, assuming the evidence warrants it.
As I said, the grand jurors can use hearsay – journalistic accounts, whistleblowing cops whose investigations were thwarted, etc.
The independent counsel could always say the grand jurors haven’t found any real crimes, but if they did, the accusation would be put into proper legal form.
I see that Charles Alan Wright, in Federal Practice and Procedure (quoted in Black’s law dictionary) says federal grand juries don’t do presentments any more because: “With United States attorneys always available to advise grand juries, proceeding by presentment is an outmoded practice.” After all, appointees of the President will always give the grand jurors correct advice on possible crimes by the President’s team or the President’s enemies.
Didn't SCOTUS say you can't have independent counsels because all prosecutor's had to be subject to control by the President?
Morrison v Olson purported to say otherwise, but since seven justices disagreed with Gandydancer, they were all corrupt and only Scalia was not corrupt and therefore his dissent is controlling law.
In the real world? No, it was constitutional.
In the real world SCOTUS majorities aren't much constrained by the Constitution, but obviously my question wasn't advocacy for any particular position defended by Scalia or anyone else.
Magister is however of course a noxious lying loon unconstrained by anything except his bilious priors.
When the world doesn't conform to your wishes, you lash out with accusations of lying and corruption. Which demonstrates the accuracy of my comments.
That you say foolish things doesn't demonstrate anything other than that you are a fool.
Here is a discussion of Presidential firing prerogatives that provides answers to my question from a viewpoint less sympathetic to executive authority than Scalia's: https://lawreviewblog.uchicago.edu/2020/08/27/seila-mashaw/
And, what do you know?, I find it both informative and rather persuasive, although I'm open to listening to a counterargument.
But not on the subject of whether Magister is a dumbass. That's simply the obvious truth.
As far off them as you've gone, can you still see the rails?
It’s my understanding that at some point in the unenlightened past, it was judges, not prosecutors, who advised the grand juries.
If the grand jury is doing an investigation where the regular prosecutor is lagging in his duty or has a conflict of interest (e. g., his boss or his boss’s family are the subjects of the investigation), then instead of asking that compromised prosecutor for legal advice, why not go directly to the judge?
Many (most?) countries have investigative judges/magistrates exactly for this reason. Sometimes that can result in, euh, "adventurous" investigations, but it's certainly better than having politicians involved.
Judges ARE politicians or politicians' minions.
Obviously matters of this nature should be handled by AI.
I was thinking of judges as sort of standby advisors for situations where the grand jury needs legal knowledge.
And nowadays, a presentment just means the grand jury thinks there's something wrong going on, leaving it to a prosecutor to decide whether the facts and the law warrant further proceedings.
Ooh, Smith has a reputation of prosecuting the Tweedledum - I mean Democratic - Party. As well as investigating cases in the International Criminal Court (despite the official noninvolvement of the U. S. in that Court, so I suppose he was acting in his private capacity).
Confirming some things on Wikipedia, I see that in 2002 (before Smith’s service on the ICC), Congress passed the American Service Members’ Protection Act, adopting a public policy against the ICC putting U. S. soldiers in prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court#American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act
This law is still in force, but has a lot of loopholes, including, it would seem, allowing American citizens to serve on the ICC despite the prospect of the ICC coming into serious conflict with the USA.
Some oversight hearings in the House of Representatives might be a good idea, to see if the American Service-Members Protection Act ought to be toughened up. This Smith fellow could be summoned to give testimony, from his personal knowledge, about the attitudes of ICC personnel toward the idea of prosecuting American soldiers.
You're not serious. Smith was in charge of the TEA Party IRS targeting.
Where do you people come from? Are you AI bots deployed by the Federals to constantly lick their boots?
These reputational claims are always bogus.
Strict Probity?? I'd see a Doctor and get rid of it.
The fact that, as Justice Scalia pointed out 35 years ago, the arrangement is blatantly unconstitutional.
I keep finding myself disagreeing with Scalia – I would think the reference to “inferior officers” whom the courts can appoint refers to officers who aren’t “Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, [or] Judges of the supreme Court” – then it refers to “all other Officers” who are then summarized as “such inferior Officers” where the appointment power can be vested elsewhere (like the courts).
So "inferior officers" and "all other Officers" are equivalent terms. Since independent counsels aren't diplomats or Supreme Court justices, they come under "all other Officers" and "such inferior Officers," QED.
I can't think of a policy which clearly requires a nonliteral interpretation. On the contrary: if a prosecutor, even one with a prior reputation for sterling integrity, is appointed by a court and suddenly degenerates into a partisan, then how much more could this happen to a prosecutor appointed by the executive.
The Morrison court seems to me to have deferred too much to Scalia, allowing him to trip them up with their own concessions.
The issue is not that courts can’t appoint prosecutors (if congress so empowers them)—indeed, they’re currently empowered to appoint U.S. Attorneys in some circumstances, and have been (continuously, as far as I know) since the 18th century. The issue is that courts can’t appoint independent prosecutors, because prosecutors by definition wield executive power, and under Article II all of that power is vested in the president.
That was Justice Scalia's minority position. Will we adopt his minority position in church/state cases, too?
And just to make sure, Congress could specify that if the President pardons the targets of the prosecution, the prosecutor's term will end. This recognizes the President's constitutional control over who gets prosecuted.
Sure. Lets go through the alleged violations in chronological order and prosecute them in order. Start with Colin Powell I suppose. Some Obama officials (HRC a key figure of course). Biden. And when we get to 2021 on the docket, we will revisit. Seems fair to me.
I think the GWB administration might actually cause a backlog, considering the amount of material they 'lost.'
Here’s a question for those of you who actually practice criminal law in real courtrooms in front of real judges (preferably federal) and real juries: if Trump’s case goes to trial, what are the defenses his attorneys will likely try to rely on? (Now I know the first reactions of some of you will be along the lines of: (a) what about Biden; (b) what about Hunter; (c) what about the Clintons; (d) the FBI is mean to Trump; (e) Jack Smith and his wife hate Trump; and (f) Trump Derangement Syndrome. So can we please get that delusional nonsense out of the way quickly so we can have a real conversation about the law?)
Given that the U.S. Attorney will need a unanimous jury, all of those choices seem reasonable to me.
They'll never seat a jury outside of D.C. with no holdouts. Not a chance.
Hopefully in SDFL, Trump's attorneys keep all Miami Gardens and Overtown blacks off the jury, and just get rednecks from Port St Lucie and Vero Beach.
A day at the Volokh Conspiracy without bigotry is a day that never exists.
Which, apparently, is just the way these right-wing misfit law professors like it.
The day when Arthur's whole family gets Breiviked will be the day for global justice and the potential redemption of America.
Carry on, clinger. Till you push your culture war to the point where it gets HOT. 🙂
All-talk, blustering, cowardly right-wingers are among my favorite pieces of culture war roadkill. These clingers get to whine and rant as much as they like, but they will continue to toe the lines established by their betters.
Give it ten years, AIDS. 🙂
Choose reason, AIDS, and get over your parochial left/right thinking. China, the ME, Africa, South America, etc, will no longer live under your thumb. Your values and politics are doomed.
I would start be litigating the constitutionality of the Presidential Records act. It seems to infringe on separation of powers as articulated in other cases relating to the unitary executive. On top of that I would force the DOJ to tangle with the Judicial Watch v. National Archives and Records Administration precedent, where the judge wrote, "“the President enjoys unconstrained authority to make decisions regarding the disposal of documents."
Once all that is taken care of I'd focus my defense on some of the seemingly delusional charges like witness intimidation to portray the case as absurd and political. Generally the rest of it is to make it as muddy as possible. Because, under the rules, he's guilty of some things, as are likely most of our politicians (and no its not worse, WRT to Ilya's absurd special pleadings). So he will lose a straight case. Somewhat fortunately from his attorney's POV this isn't a straight case in either scope or precedent.
“the President enjoys unconstrained authority to make decisions regarding the disposal of documents.”
Why is this relevant to the actions of a former President?
These clingers don't consider him to be a former president. They call him "President Trump" or "the President," and believe Trump won re-election. They're as delusional and disaffected as they are bigoted and ignorant.
Well people still call you "Coach" Sandusky.
Bill Clinton was also a former president when he took the recordings in question and put them in a sock drawer.
Assuming the case gets to the jury, Trump´s best hope is nullification.
At this stage, however, the case is assigned to a biased, Trump partisan district judge. There are numerous ways for such a judge to stymie the prosecution. For example, suppose the judge grants a defense motion to suppress evidence seized pursuant to the August 8, 2022 search warrant. Suppose the judge revisits the prior determination that the crime-fraud exception to the attorney-client privilege applies.
Imagine an indictment that read, "MoreCurious had eggs for breakfast in violation of the federal bank robbery statute." The prosecutor presents your confession to eating eggs for breakfast, video of your eating eggs for breakfast, and the testimony of ten people who saw you eat eggs for breakfast. What defense would you give the jury, keeping in mind that juries only decide questions of fact, not law? You would have no defense, so you wouldn't argue anything to the jury.
What you would do is, before trial, go to the judge, and say, "Judge, I move you quash this indictment. Eating eggs for breakfast does not violate the federal bank robbery statute." And, if the judge is fair and competent, he will dismiss the indictment, and you will be free to go. If he does not, you just have to hope the jury will ignore the judge's instructions and vote "not guilty". And, after that, you have your appeals.
The bulk of Trump's defense will be made before a trial, not at one. His lawyers will argue that the acts Trump allegedly committed, even if proved, do not in fact violate the statutes the prosecutors say they violate.
When your go-to defense is jury nullification, you're not doing so hot.
¨The bulk of Trump’s defense will be made before a trial, not at one. His lawyers will argue that the acts Trump allegedly committed, even if proved, do not in fact violate the statutes the prosecutors say they violate.¨
Well, Trump drew perhaps the only federal district judge who would not laugh such an insipid argument out of the courtroom.
Would you go down the same path as Allutz, not guilty?
You're a defense lawyer (retired). How would you get POTUS Trump off?
I would not seek a pretrial dismissal of the indictment, which would be a final judgment appealable as of right. The Eleventh Circuit has shown that it is willing to smack Judge Loose Cannon down hard, and the higher court would likely direct that on remand the case be assigned to a different judge.
If I were defending Trump before a friendly tribunal, I would press every advantage from the judge´s bias that I could. I would move to suppress the fruits of the August 8, 2022 execution of the search warrant. I would move in limine to exclude any testimony from Evan Corcoran, reasoning that the ruling of the D.C. district court on the crime-fraud exception to the attorney-client privilege is not binding on the present court. I would ask that voir dire examination be conducted exclusively by the court. I would propose jury instructions favorable to the defense. I would hint at nullification during closing argument, without expressly advocating it. In the event of guilty verdicts, I would ask that the judge impose only fines as punishment, or in the alternative, ask for probation.
That is what comes to mind off the top of my head.
Quite a lot, not guilty. Let's see how this legal process plays out.
Tell me you don’t practice federal criminal law without telling me you don’t practice federal criminal law.
While you’re at at, tell me you haven’t read the Trump indictment without telling me you haven’t read the Trump indictment.
I expect a spaghetti defense. Most defendants have to carefully choose their best arguments, but Trump is privileged to have every argument taken seriously and addressed. Still I think they'll mostly focus on intent, since the actus rei is so irrefutable. Finally, Cannon has in the past been responsive to political rhetoric, so to the extent she hears the case, expect a lot of that.
Here's what I find curious.
"In fact, after June 3, 2022 more than 100 documents with classification markings remained at The Mar-a-Lago Club until the FBI search on August 8, 2022.
Point 1. They seized over 100 documents, 102 to be exact, with "classification markings". So what? "Classification markings" says nothing about whether or not the document was classified or not. I've seen the Carter Page illegal FISA published in a newspaper. That had "classification markings" on it. So what?
Point 2. Their outline in the national security defense issues mentioned 31 documents. Where'd the other 71 documents go? Why aren't they being returned to Trump?
Point 3. Why is the guy who was in charge of the illegal IRS targeting in charge of this special investigation? (Don't answer we know why, he got away with it before so they knew he could do it again and get away with it again.)
"45" should get the same sentence Daniel Ellsberg got.
"“Classification markings” says nothing about whether or not the document was classified or not."
It does say something about it. Literally. Even if you accept Trump's "think about it" declassificatipn system, he can't keep the documents. They don't belong to Donald Trump, they belong to the United States.
"Where’d the other 71 documents go? Why aren’t they being returned to Trump?"
Obviously they aren't "national security defense issues". That doesn't mean they aren't classified, nor that they aren't the property of the United States. Even if he can magically declassify things, that doesn't mean they belong to him. Kim Jong Un's letter is an example.
"Why is the guy who was in charge of the illegal IRS targeting in charge of this special investigation?"
Why wouldn't he be? He was a lawyer charged with representing the government's position, not the guy who created, planned, or executed anything at the IRS.
So, one of the hallmarks of a Banana Republic is to use the power of the state to persecute political opponents for crimes that don't have charges brought against the people in power.
And in that respect, this is a banana republic type situation. It's been made abundantly clear that investigations and indictments have been made against Trump that were not or have been not made against either of his political opponents (Clinton or Biden).
If the positions were reversed and Trump (or a Trump appointed special prosecutor) ordered Biden brought up on charges for mishandling classified documents, Somin and friends would be screaming about fascism. But reverse the situation and "no one's above the law"?
Any reasonable person must look at the entire situation at hand, and the extreme level of bias, over the last 8 years, concerning Trump investigations and indictments versus the seeming lack thereof with Biden/Clinton indictments. And understand...when the law enforcement is this biased, it's a banana republic type situation.
They impeached him for trying to get accountability for a bribe that turns out Biden did take.
These Democrats are truly vile, evil monsters that are destroying our country. I hope every Democrat, politician or bureaucrat, their bootlickers, and RINO-in-arms gets the severest justice possible.
The entire Federal Class needs to be nuked into orbit or we'll never be a free people again.
If Biden had done what Trump did, it would not be an act of a banana republic to indict him.
What you can't get past is Trump's actions are not comparable to Clinton's, Biden's or Pence's.
Unfortunately, they are quite comparable. Classified documents kept at a home address, moved multiple times...
One situation was met with overwhelming force. The other was handled in the most gentle way possible.
Many seemingly normal investigative procedures are continually shortcut or broken in regards to Trump investigations. It's increasingly clear the "investigators" are extremely biased and working to keep one group of individuals in office, and a different individual out of office.
That weaponization of the law for political purposes is truly what a Banana Republic entails.
While we're at it, I think we need to ask a very certain question.
Why did the Department of Justice order the IRS investigative team all barred from the Biden tax fraud investigation? It's a very odd move, for a team that has been investigating the issue for several years, one which is highly decorated.
If I had to take a guess...there's $5 Million from Ukraine that made it into Joe Biden's pocket... And the IRS eventually tracks down that sort of money. Unless the investigators are removed from the case.
If Biden and Pence had denied they had documents and tried to hide them from the investigators, search warrants would have been served on them, too.
Trump is accused of having lied and moved the docs and obstructed. It’s in the indictment. And hint of Biden doing that?
He’s on tape saying they are classified, he can’t declassify them anymore, and then showing them off.
You're a very bad liar.
The closest analog to known facts regarding Biden's situation, is Pence.
It's too bad you don't have the moral character to tell the truth.
That was Trump’s choice, not DoJ’s. They offered gentleness but were rebuffed by Trump.
The real tragedy of which is that it goes to intent. No intent no prosecution, even if there’s illegal conduct. By resisting giving the documents back, Trump proved his intent to possess them. That’s why he’s being charged and the others won’t be.
"the power of the state to persecute political opponents for crimes"
Prosecution isn't persecution. This isn't a baseless case.
"It’s been made abundantly clear that investigations and indictments have been made against Trump that were not or have been not made against either of his political opponents (Clinton or Biden)."
Clinton was investigated. Should she have been indicted? You've got me. I would say yes, but I'm not a lawyer (never mind a prosecutor) and I don't know how strong the case would have been. There isn't nearly the evidence, at least in the public realm, to bring any charges against Biden even if he wasn't a sitting President.
"If the positions were reversed"
Looks like rampant speculation is your superpower.
"Any reasonable person must look at the entire situation at hand, and the extreme level of bias, over the last 8 years"
No, that's how a rampant partisan would look at it. Any argument that boils down to "ignore the details of the inductment" should be dismissed as the tribal apologism of the worst kind.
"the seeming lack thereof with Biden/Clinton indictments"
Whatabout! Whatabout! Whatabout!
Do yourself a favour and go read the OP again. You're not saying anything that prof. Somin didn't already rebut.
You're a joke, Ilya. How about accepting a $5m bribe to use US foreign aid to benefit the crooked company that paid you? It's not proven you say? Well, maybe that's because the system does not investigate democrats. You are living in lala land.
Can’t wait to see your proof. Can you give us an estimate when that might happen?
Wait till next year. Not smart to play your winning card early
There will be no proof because the DOJ will do its best to avoid gathering any. If proof pops up anyways, the DOJ will opine that it is not worthy of prosecution. We live in a 2 tier (or maybe even 3 tier) system. Somin probably hopes that he will secure his place in the top tier by holding the right opinions. Good luck with that.
So the absence of proof itself proves the conspiracy?
Your determined blindness to a plethora of proofs says something only about you.
The lack of evidence is only proof the system is corrupt!
Yes, it is Prof. Somin who is the joke.
The funny thing about the OP is that Prof. Somin really didn't have to make any references at all to Hillary Clinton or Biden to make his main argument, a criticism of one particular argument against indicting Trump. I have to think he is just baiting these commenters, at this point.
It's clear from the comments by the cultists that they have absolutely nothing to say in Trump's defense.
None of this is like a banana republic because the United States isn’t a country dependent on natural resource exports whose economy and politics are dominated by one or a few foreign companies.
I lean more descriptivist than prescriptivist when it comes to language, but I really really hate how this useful shorthand for a type of neocolonialism like has been co-opted by Americans to mean: vaguely shitty country with messed up and authoritarian politics.
Then come up with a better one to describe the regime in power trying to jail its most likely opponent in the next election.
Smith, the man of utmost probity and integrity doctored transcripts.
"NEW: Special Counsel Smith's indictment alleges Trump showed off a military paper that he boasted was classified "highly confidential" and "secret," but the transcript reveals Trump actually said: "like, highly confidential" and "a secret." Smith omitted the words "like" and "a.""
https://twitter.com/paulsperry_/status/166736245383808204
That’s your defense? Think the jury’s going to be impressed with that?
I would be, if the Prosecution bull shits about something like that, what else are they bullshitting about. And has anyone seen Smith and Hunter Biden together?? I think they're the same person. Explains alot.
Nice try at changing the subject, which is Smith's lack of integrity.
But no sale.
Bill Clinton would be so proud of you. He only tried to make "is" murky an undefined. You took a common filler word (like) and pretend that he meant it literally.
And trying to make a meaningful distinction between "secret" and "a secret"? That is A+ sophistry.
Re: https://twitter.com/paulsperry_/status/166736245383808204
"Sorry, that Tweet has been deleted." Msg at bottom of page, goes away quickly. Hmmm... thanks, Elon. Did it mention you or Ye?
Employees of the Secret Service destroyed threat assessment recors relating to the President Kennedy in the fall of 1963 after they were requested by the Assassination Records Review Board. Walter Sheridan took assassination records from the JFK library and deposited them with NBC after they were requested by the ARRB. The Department of Defense also destroyed classified records pertaining to Oswald and yet no one has ever been indicted for these violations. Just saying.
Truly baffling, especially in light of the clause in the Presidential Records Act that sent it back in time 15 years so it could apply in 1963. I just don't understand why prosecutors at the time failed to use future laws to their advantage. Must be a conspiracy!
It was legal to remove records from the JFK Library and give them to NBC because property rights did not exist before passage of the Presidential Records Act?
We can argue all we want, but the root problem is Republicans nominated and elected a habitual criminal.
Mitt Romeney?? you're right!
And, astoundingly, they seem ready to do it again.
But are you really astounded? I'm not. He and his gang have taken the Republican party hostage and the victims seem incapable of escaping.
Your fantasies are self-discrediting, but you are oblivious to that.
Bill Clinton unquestionably committed perjury. About twenty years ago, I was speaking to a federal prosecutor who told me jurors still didn't take perjury indictments seriously because of it. When Special Prosecutor Ken Starr was asked sometime later why he didn't charge Clinton, he said he didn't want to put the country through that trauma.
Today, conversely, Democrats, very much DO want to inflict that trauma on the country as an object lesson to anyone who would oppose them. Their repeated refrains that "no one is above the law" are as laughable as they are clearly false. If your name is Biden or Clinton, you are clearly "above the law". Essentially, in the corrupt sewer of Washington, D.C., all Democrats and throwaway Republicans (tepid, inoffensive ones) are "above the law". Obama's CIA director David Petraeus was givng classified documents to a woman he was having sex with so she would write a flattering book about him. For that, he was sentenced to one year of probation.
The crux of the allegation against Trump is that he mishandled documents. For this, he faces over 100 years in prison. For not returning documents as quickly as the Archivist demanded, he should die in federal prison, says the corrupt Biden Justice Department.
Everyone knows this is the stuff of banana republics. Everyone knows that our corrupt Justice Department and FBI have spent seven years desperately searching for a crime - any crime - to hang on Trump. "Show me the man, and I'll find you the crime", as Lavrentiy Beria, the head of Stalin's secret police famously said. That Somin defends it is unsurprising, as the great "libertarian" has been defending every single depredation of the rights of Trump and his associates for years now.
In their pathological desire to "get Trump", the Democrats have now brought this country to a very dark place, and there is no going back.
I agree the 100 years part is ludicrous and I am beginning to believe this prosecution isn't good for the country (but as I said above, the election stealing cases would be).
That being said, your definition of a "throwaway Republican" sounds like it might be circular. Was Pence a throwaway before the decision not to charge him? Perhaps you can name all the throwaways now so you can't change the designation after the fact.
“For this, he faces over 100 years in prison.”
No he doesn’t. He’s not facing anything like that. He’ll be on the low end of the sentencing guidelines and there will be lots of reasons a judge could do a downward departure or a variance.
In the interest of accuracy and reality, let me rewrite that last sentence for you:
In their pathological desire to “worship Trump,” the Republicans are trying to convince this country to close its collective eyes, ears, and minds and pretend that Trump is not an unethical, untruthful, immoral, not-too-bright, misogynistic grifter.
If being an unethical, untruthful, immoral, not-too-bright, misogynistic grifter were a crime you'd be in prison for life right now.
"Ken Starr"
Ken Starr actively covered up rapes as president at Baylor. He's not exactly a paragon of virtue.
"The crux of the allegation against Trump is that he mishandled documents."
That isn't even close to the crux of the allegations. If it was he would have been treated like Mike Pence and Joe Biden. Different behavior gets different treatment.
"For not returning documents as quickly as the Archivist demanded"
Sure, it's about proptness. Not obstruction, sharing military secrets, actively trying to thwart the recovery of documents that didn't belong to him, and lying about it. Do you always read only the Cliff's Notes version as presented by The Gateway Pundit?
"the Democrats have now brought this country to a very dark place, and there is no going back."
The dark times were 2016-2020. If a milquetoast mediocrity like Joe Biden can pull us back from the abyss, anyone can.
"Democrats good, Republicans bad, Orange Man very bad."
In a way, I envy your childlike, simpleminded worldview and inability to remotely apprehend the dire consequences that will come of this indictment, regardless of its ultimate outcome.
Oh, to be a kid again, insulated from the harsh realities of the real, adult world! Oh, to be you.
Just retreat to the safe spaces clingers are creating for themselves. If you can’t handle the reality- based world, choose religion, disaffectedness, and Fox News and let better people handle the real world.
In the interest of accuracy and reality, let me help you again with a rewrite. Democrats: good people are good and bad people are bad; Republicans: we will continue to worship Trump regardless of how bad he is because apparently we can’t do any better.
You missed the part where ONLY Democrats are good people.
Hardly. But when Democrats name-check a good Republican (Pence, Kinzinger, etc.), MagaWorld immediately disclaims and banishes them as not a "real" Republican.
So yeah, if Republicans kick out all the good people, then only Democrats (and other non-Republicans) will be good.
How many of the twelve candidates running for president as Republicans are "good" people?
Is RFK Jr. a "good" people?
Seven. Kennedy's not one of them.
Name them.
Obviously Kennedy isn't one of the R's but is he a "good" people by your standards?
No. He's playing culture war games so he's out.
I'm not sure what list you're working from but here's my seven (some of whom are still in benefit-of-the-doubt territory):
1. Haley
2. Pence
3. Binkley
4. Burgum
5. Christie
6. Hutchinson
7. Scott
Binkley?
Is he a baddie? I don't really know.
"“Democrats good, Republicans bad, Orange Man very bad.”"
I never said anything like that. Why do you put it in quotation marks like I did?
But no, the Ds aren't good and the Rs aren't bad. Right now the Rs are awful, but there is a core of the party that rejects the cultural war bullshit and supports fiscal responsibility. When they regain leadership of the party, it will become the superior choice. Right now it isn't that the Ds are good, it's that the Rs are so bad they have to suffer electoral losses until they regain their sanity.
For the rest of it, ad hominem attacks aren't worthy of attention. If you can't argue my actual points, step aside and let someone else take up the baton.
Where are these people? Narnia?
‘When Special Prosecutor Ken Starr was asked sometime later why he didn’t charge Clinton, he said he didn’t want to put the country through that trauma.’
When you think about what Starr was willing to but the country through, not to mention the victims of sexual abuse, this statement rings a wee bit hollow.
‘If your name is Biden or Clinton, you are clearly “above the law”.’
All the evidence against Biden is non-existent, Clinton was investigated over and over again for years, and nobody could make anything stick
‘For that, he was sentenced to one year of probation.’
So he was, in fact, held accountable to the law.
‘For this, he faces over 100 years in prison.’
He’ll never see a day in prison, even if convicted.
‘“Show me the man, and I’ll find you the crime”, as Lavrentiy Beria, the head of Stalin’s secret police famously said.’
Okay, but you have to throw out the entire US justice system if this is your starting point. Empty every prison. Dismantle every law enforcement agency, close every court. This is that reversal of the Man For All Seasons quote where you burn down every law to *protect* the devil.
‘In their pathological desire to “get Trump”, the Democrats have now brought this country to a very dark place, and there is no going back.’
Bears repeating that he was given enormous leeway to return the documents without a fuss.
So… he was prosecuted, right?
Every word of this is a lie. I expect something like this from BravoCharlieDelta or Gandydancer, but this is beneath you. That is not the allegation against Trump, and he does not face over 100 years in prison.
That doesn't sound notably like me at all, but Nopoint... is Nopoint, and one doesn't expect anything in the way of accuracy from HIM.
Actually, my position on the documents is that they are completely unimportant. Trump took some dusty boxes with him so that Biden wouldn't go through them, but for the nation they are of no significance at all, classification being so out of control and the difficulty of extracting anything from them being so overwhelming. You should listen to Glenn Greenwald talking about how eye-glazingly boring it was to go through the "Chelsea" Manning archives, and THOSE at least were searchable electronically. Now, getting to read the newest State Department documents daily when they were hot, as Clinton's insecure storage allowed, may have been worthwhile. But if some guest sat on Trump's can riffling through the contents of the boxes stored there he could do so for years without finding anything worth photographing.
Gerry Ford was the last Boy Scout....
Ford, as much as anyone, caused this by pardoning Nixon. Ford set the precedent that a president or ex-president is above the law, green-lighting Trump's behavior. This indictment of Trump is only unprecedented because Ford preempted a DOJ indictment of Nixon.
The banana republic critique refers to the ruling party prosecuting an opposition leader running for president for "crimes" for which they gave a past ruling party candidate and the current president a pass.
The ruling party prosecutor is NOT charging Trump with retention of classified documents for two reasons: (1) such a charge is impossible to prove against a former POTUS with complete power to declassify, including by the very act of removing documents to his private home; and (2) to distinguish this prosecution from the non-prosecution of Biden for the exact same acts.
Rather, the prosecutor is attempting to shoehorn this under 18 USC § 793(e), which states in pertinent part:
1) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document...relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation [and]
2) willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it.
This provision applies to Sandy Berger cases, where the perp removes a national security document from a depository and then fails to return it to the depository officer or employee.
Trump is not alleged to have checked out any of these documents and none of them are owed to a depository officer.
In an attempt to bypass this inconvenient fact, I suspect the prosector will further shoehorn in the non-criminal Presidential Records Act to argue Trump's possession was unauthorized and claim the individual officer is actually NARA.
In sharp contrast, the case against Clinton, which the ruling party claimed "no reasonable prosecutor would charge," was FAR stronger. In order to avoid congressional oversight, the Sec State with no power to declassify illegally stored over 1,000 emails with classified information in an unsecured private server in her home, which hacked by an undisclosed outside party, then provided the emails to various uncleared aides and attorneys. There were potentially thousands of felony and misdemeanor crimes there.
The Trump case lacks any legal merit and is plainly an attempt to swing the upcoming election to the ruling party. To return us tothe other side of the Rubicon, the Court should dismiss the case upon motion, with a referral to the bar against the prosecutor and his staff.
“Lacks any legal merit..”
Like your analysis? Lol
Bart DePalma shows up, like a bad penny.
Who is Bart DePalma?
I think he was one of your linebackers at Penn State, "Coach"
He was a regular commenter at Balkanization until they shut down comments. I think he’s some sort of low-rent lawyer in CO somewhere.
Pretty much a RW idiot. He’s a stupid version of Bellmore.
Thats so sad you know that. Cool name though, "Bart DePalma" it sound so much like a fake name it's probably real.
Dumber than a disaffected, autistic, antisocial, delusional, superstitious birther? I will await evidence.
I’d say exhibit one, above, is certainly a good start.
Good point. But not enough (yet) to challenge Mr. Brett "Birther" Bellmore's body of work.
Every bit of this analysis is incompetent and wrong (including, by the way, the claim that the Secretary of State has no power to declassify documents.)
Kari Lake, as dumb an ass as can be found outside a Federalist Society convention, is so desperate to be on television again that she is auditioning for a role as Ashlii Babbitt.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit. Not a step beyond.
Ashlii Babbitt learned that the hard way.
Way to slander a Veteran, there "Coach" I know, you had a College Deferment from the Draft earning your PE degree. I guess Harvey Milk learned the same "Lesson"
Frank
Maybe she should commission a fake intelligence dossier to convince people to believe her claims about a stolen election, just like the Cunt®™ (legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton) did.
Classy...
He's on a stalwart 'make fetch happen' mission.
Once upon a time, the least famous sex partner of an impeached former president ran for office... and, despite help from various legacy media outlets and various legacy "academics", lost.. to Donald Trump.
The American people are not easily misled by "academic" musings and warnings of "mis-information" by authors who make Paul Joseph Goebbels -- and Stalin -- look like saints.
authors who make Paul Joseph Goebbels — and Stalin — look like saints.
Mute-worthy.
Late to the party and empty handed as usual.
Fascinating. Three hours later and no one has presented even one defense. Should we conclude that no one can think of any defenses Trump’s lawyers might use? Is whataboutism the best you can do? What if he were your client? Can you think of anything more persuasive than simply saying to the jury that he should not have been indicted?
You don't have to prove you're innocent, Dumbass, the prosecution has to prove you're guilty. Watch a few Perry Mason episodes.
You're right, no competent lawyer would put up a defense until their client is convicted. Only after the prosecution has proved guilt should the defense try to claim innocence. You're a very smart man, if you ignore the mental illness and cocaine.
What does Hunter have to do with this?
Here's a defense: none of the things Trump is accused of doing are actually crimes, despite special prosecutor Jack Smith's creative, twisted attempts to characterize them as such. Just because an indictment says, "John Doe did X in violation of U.S.C. sec. Y" does not mean that action X actually violates Section Y.
Jack Smith, who was selected by Merrick Garland specifically for his rabid, unethical partisanship, already has some experience with this. Smith had secured a conviction of Virginia's Republican Governor Bob McDonnell for taking bribes. A unanimous Supreme Court threw out the conviction, holding that none of the acts Smith characterized as "bribes" were actually bribes. McDonnell v. United States, 579 U.S. ___ (2016).
Of course, McDonnell's reputation was destroyed, his political career was ended, and the Democrats won the ensuing gubernatorial election, so Smith probably counts the case as a win.
Do you claim to be a lawyer?
A paralegal?
College graduate?
Well he's not Jerry Sandusky, that's for sure.
I hadn't known if F. D. Wolf correctly summarized the McDonnell case, but you just confirmed that his summary was accurate, since you never bothered to object to that summary.
When the facts are against you, your habit is to lob insults, or to babble about Biola College.
Why don't you go look up the case yourself? The Supreme Court considered the question of what constituted "official acts", not whether McDonnell was bribed to do non-official acts or whether Jack Smith had engaged in anything improper by prosecuting him. The somewhat conservative Fourth Circuit upheld the conviction before the Supreme Court considered it, which seems to argue against partisan railroading.
Kirkland is the dog that didn't bark in the night. He failed to cite any good parts of Smith's actions, preferring his usual diversionary tactics instead.
So I accept the facts as accepted by Kirkland - Smith lost 9-0 in the Supreme Court.
You figure I accepted that dope's characterization of a decision? That's fifth grade reasoning.
Your invariable habit, when the law and the facts are against you, is to pound the table and scream about meth users in West Virginia, or Pat Robertson, or anything which isn't to the point.
Do you claim to have a life, Artie?
And how long do you think it will take a judge, even Judge Cannon, to laughingly throw out that nonsensical “defense?”
I don't know. I guess it depends if the government's reply brief is as convincing as your refutation of it. You should bring your post to their attention, so they can cite it in the brief.
Whoa, what a burn, you grabbed MoreCurious by the Pussy
Is it your impression that MoreCurious invited him to do it?
I was prepared to argue that since other past Presidents including Biden managed to end up with government material at home, the Justice Department should find something more substantive and serious to charge him with. President in general should not be charged with minor offenses, and charging him with multiole felonies for things other people are known to have done without any charges brought could end up merely adding fuel to his argument that he is being unjustly persecuted.
But revelations about the nature of the contents, including nuclear weapons secrets and outlines of the country’s military weaknesses, have changed my mind.
I was prepared to argue that since other past Presidents including Biden managed to end up with government material at home, the Justice Department should find something more substantive and serious to charge him with.
Except that the indictment is alleging that the records didn't "manage to end up" at Mar-a-Lago. The accusation is that Trump willfully and unlawfully retained the records after more than a year of the federal government trying to get them back. If it had truly been some kind of oversight, as your wording suggested, then there never would have been a problem, as Trump wouldn't have tried so hard for so long to keep them, to the point of allegedly trying to keep them after they were subpoenaed. That, in itself, was worthy of considering charges, even if every document was definitely not a significant national security risk. (No one other than Trump could hope to get away with such obvious obstruction without charges.) That at least some of them were major national security secrets, makes only makes his alleged conduct even more egregious than blatantly flouting the law.
Like the Cunt®™, legally known as Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Or FJB?
There was no judicial order or judgment that compelled Trump to return the documents to NARA that was ever in force.
Like Sandy Berger?
Or David Petraeus?
So why not have a nice snap impeachment and find out?
https://twitter.com/RepAndyBiggsAZ/status/1667268576019881986
In conclusion, Fuck Joe Biden!
This white, male, right-wing blog has censored liberal-libertarian commenters for using terms such as "p_ssy," "sl_ck-j_wed," and "c_p succ_r" to describe conservatives, but Eugene Volokh will act the matador for Mr. Ejercito's description of former Senator Clinton, waving it along.
Prof. Volokh's claim he was merely "enforcing civility standards" when censoring his political adversaries has been demonstrated to have been a falsehood. He is entitled to impose partisan, hypocritical, viewpoint-driven censorship at his blog -- his playground, his rules -- but he should be honest about it.
You fail to appreciate the damage the Cunt®™ caused.
Using a fake dossier she commissioned, she got the FBI, others in the Department of Justice, and U.S. intelligence agenciea to give the illusion of credibility to her own Stab in the Back®™ propaganda campaign.
As such, they now have the credibility of Wanetta Gibson.
You and the Volokh conspirators deserve each other. Keep each other company until replacement.
Stop with the "c" word. You discredit you arguments. And you make good arguments.
He uses that word because his actual arguments are warmed-over shite.
“C*nt is a slang term for the vagina but can also be used to refer to a mean or nasty person — particularly a woman.” Seems accurate.
Could also be used to describe Nige.
It’s what Trump likes to grab women by.
And William Juffuhson too, who actually did it, not just talked about he, I believe WJC's line was "Grab em with 2 fingers, like picking up a 6 pack!"
Frank "Thumb works better"
edgebot forgot Trump's a sex offender
Nige has Sunday morning dry pussy.
edgebot has fantasies and Trump's a sex offender
Nige hallucinates again that Trump is a "sex offender", and forgets that he's previously admitted that his saying so is a lie.
He is absolutely a sex offender.
Your original version of the slur was saying that Trump was a "convicted sex offender", and you're simply too dumb to realize that you can't salvage the insult by just cutting off "convicted" because Trump is ALSO not an "offender" without an "offense" in law that he is guilty of.
These are Prof. Volokh's fans and defenders.
And the reason modern, mainstream legal academia views him as a bigoted, obsolete clown.
Poor Artie got banned once many years ago, changed his handle and has been going on endlessly about it ever since.
But the guy who wrote this egregious post in named Somin. EV's real sin is not kicking him back to Reason's trash threads.
"There was no judicial order or judgment that compelled Trump to return the documents to NARA that was ever in force."
Then how did the FBI get a warrant to recover the files from Mar-A-Lago? I mean, if he was never required to return the documents that didn't belong to him, how did that happen? Wait, let me guess. The judiciary is conspiring against Trump.
"Like Sandy Berger? Or David Petraeus?"
So because previous prosecuters failed to do their job, this one should as well? Whataboutism is such a vapid argument.
"In conclusion, Fuck Joe Biden!"
Wait, you aren't a Democrat? It was so hard to tell.
Why, yes.
It is called precedent.
That's an admission of his guilt.
Hunet Bidens? I know, so why no charges? I mean besides Merrick Garland being so far up Senescent J's Asshole he's probably part of the reason Senescent falls so much (the Parkinsonism doesn't help either)
Frank
edgebot confused, hurt and angry
Nige-bot more confused, more hurt, more angry. And who's really the "Bot" here??, you respond to my posts, you dumb fuck.
If I was really an "Edge-bot" I'd say,
June 11, 1963 Medgar Evans murdered by RFK Justice Department,
Frank
edgebot mad that his replies get replies
RFK Jr should get with Medgar Evans Jr. and make "Reparations"
edgebot slipping into dreamworld
"It is called precedent."
Yeah, that's not what that word means. When sometimes a thing is done and sometimes it isn't, that"s not a precedent.
Plus, of course, other than the fact that Trump, Pence, and Biden all had classified documents in their possession, the cases are completely different.
Neither Biden nor Pence actively tried to keep any documents. Trump not only tried to keep documents that didn't belong to him, he lied, obfuscated, obstructed, had people without clearances handle them, and shared sensitive military secrets with random people (who also didn't have clearances).
So if you want a precedent, it's that if you return documents that don't belong to you get one treatment and if you refuse and actively obstruct their retrieval by the authorized parties, you get a different treatment.
Not that your post really deserves a reply, so consider this a gift.
A subpoena is a writ issued by a government agency, most often a court, to compel testimony by a witness or production of evidence under a penalty for failure.
A friend who knows I’m a trial lawyer asked me: What is the simplest possible set of facts that would, if proved beyond a reasonable doubt, convict two codefendants of a conspiracy to obstruct justice?
I said: When Defendant 1 says, “Hide this box of evidence,” and Defendant 2 says, “Okay,” and does (or tries to).
From a lawyer’s point of view, it’s a lot easier to prove a criminal conspiracy to hide a box of evidence than to prove, say, the existence of the Mafia.
A criminal conspiracy still requires not only a conspiracy, but an actual crime. If two children throwing a football in the house accidentally break their parents' vase, then together hide the broken pieces, they have indeed conspired and hidden evidence, but that doesn't mean they've committed a crime.
Just because government officials demand you immediately turn over documents doesn't necessarily mean the government is entitled to the documents or that your failure to comply with the demands is a crime. I believe this will be the general thrust of Trump's defense.
The Presidential Records Act is not a criminal statute. And there is plenty of caselaw to suggest that it is the former President, not the Archivist or anyone else, who is the final arbiter of which are "personal records" and which are "presidential records". See, e.g., Judicial Watch, Inc. v. Nat'l Archives & Records Admin., 845 F.Supp.2d 288 (D.D.C. 2012) (Former President Clinton was the arbiter of whether audio tapes in his possession of White House interview with author conducted while he was President were "personal" or "presidential" records, not the courts or the Archivist).
This guy must be auditioning for a spot on the Trump Lawyer carousel. Is wrecking your reputation, positioning yourself for disciplinary action, getting replaced after a brief period, getting lied to, and being stiffed really that attractive to clingers with law degrees?
Coach Sandusky up bright and early at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
You’re on a roll! We are eagerly waiting for you to explain in more detail why the mishandling of material like nuclear secrets and war plans is not a crime?
The President can declassify anything. Do you understand the word "anything"?
If you can't wrap your tiny head around that, then I'm sorry, but I am unable to dumb it down for you any further.
He's not claiming to have declassified anything.
Suppose, for sake of argument, that Donald Trump had secretly declassified the documents in question. That would afford no defense as to the offenses charged in the indictment. None of the charged statutes distinguishes between classified records/information and unclassified records/information.
When Congress intends to make classification status an element of a criminal offense, it knows that language to employ in order to do so. See e.g., 18 U.S.C. § 1924 (which is not charged in this case).
That is not to say that classification markings are irrelevant. The May 11, 2022 grand jury subpoena called for production of ¨Any and all documents or writings in the custody or control of Donald J. Trump and/or the Office of Donald J. Trump bearing classification markings . . .¨ https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/just-security-mar-a-lago-grand-jury-subpoena.pdf The presence of such classification markings on the documents that Trump hid and refused to produce helps to establish his culpable mental state.
I do not expect F.D. Wolf to address that point.
The President can declassify anything. Do you understand the word “anything”?
So beyond misunderstanding the facts, you're wrong on the law.
"Classification of [nuclear] documents is by statute, not by EO 13526 or its predecessors. Specifically, these are classified directly via the Atomic Energy Act.
In this group, document #19 is special. This is Formerly Restricted Data, and is classified by virtue of the Atomic Energy Act (as implemented by 10 CFR part 1045). Trump could not have declassified this document even while president—at least not directly. It is National Defense Information by statute, not by executive order.
By statute, documents are classified under the Atomic Energy Act if the Department of Energy and Department of Defense agree that the document (or category) falls within the categories laid out in the Atomic Energy Act. If DOE and DOD disagree, the President can break the tie (in either direction). This means the President could in principle force documents to be declassified by directing the relevant Secretaries to declassify the documents (and firing them if they don’t comply). But critically: the process must occur for the document to be declassified. It is not “at will” declassification by the President."
You should not make bare declarative statements about thins you know nothing about.
Sorry, Wolf, but in your feeble effort to shield your hero from scrutiny and consequences, you’ve completely lost your grasp of reality. Worship him if you want, but don’t make up facts and law to suit your pathetic head-in-the-sand “defense.”
Oh for fuck's sake Wolf. You better hope you're wrong (and fortunately you are), because the only thing politically worse for Trump than showing off classified nuclear secrets would be recklessly declassifying nuclear secrets for the purpose of showing them off. At least if they remain classified they're still plausibly protected.
So yeah, keep spreading this idea that he cares so little for American interests that he's willing to strip the protection off of valuable national security secrets for nothing more than the satisfaction of his own ego. Sounds like a great choice for President, right Wolf?
Plenty of ignorant But Biden/Clinton.
Some ignorance of what Trump is charged with.
Some arguments running for office makes you above the law, at least this law.
And not my actual defense of Trump.
This gonna get bad for the tools.
I expect lots of violent fantasies this week.
This is going to make your country look even more like a fascist state than it already does.
Keep discrediting yourselves, Yankee Doodles. The Western world is sick of your 'leadership' and is itching to leave you behind.
You’re just another un-American clinger at this un-American blog, ranting about modern America.
You're a pathological clinger who hates reason and logic and has spent literal years of his life trolling this site because his life is worthless.
Carry on, Clinger. Till your family is Breiviked when your country's culture war turns hot.
Your values constitute the 'modern' America whilst the scores of millions of Americans who harbour rival ones are simply 'un-American'. It's not simply a matter for dialogue, for reasoned discourse (where reason could, even in principle, prevail), but rather of LANGUAGE POLICING (and institution policing) to try to exclude from discourse, to silence speech and thought, to 'other', to alienate. You and your lot have become more openly authoritarian, Orwellian, and intolerant. You are evil, AIDS, and not just a buffoon.
Your labels for yourself, AIDS, do not match your actions and behaviour. It's why we in the rest of the world can see clearly that you and your lot are a bunch of petulant totalitarian twits. Your values are anti-Western, anti-democratic, anti-liberal, and anti-science. You are a disgrace to the free world, and a danger to it.
"Authoritarian," not "fascist." But it's bad, no matter what you call it.
You have a lot of violent fantasies?? Hows that workin out for you?
Thank you for your post, Somin.
Regardless of our views about Trump the man, do you think the rest of the world believes the charges against him? Do you think anyone outside America REALLY believes there's a credible difference, legal or otherwise, between Trump's actions and Biden's? That different standards are applied for any other reason than that your regime is fascist?
Do you think the world thinks the CIA and FBI are law-abiding-and-compliant institutions?
Don't you think the Bidens and Clintons are criminals -- according to US federal law -- as the rest of the civilized world does? Clinton, Biden, and Obama both tried to subvert the 2016 election, using criminal means, so your attempt to distinguish them are laughable.
Do you think ANYWHERE else in the rest of the West would emulate your election law changes since 2020: decreased ID requirements, counting late ballots, ballot harvesting, etc? THESE ARE the indicia of a banana republic.
You are free to rationalize your authoritarian misdeeds all you want (till Rev Arthur and the progressive KGB literally try to silence you), but no one in the world, including we your allies in the West, believe you for even one second.
From hereon, Ilya Somin, you shall be known as ‘Somin the Tankie’.
You can try to cloak yourself in what libertarian or liberal language and labels you like, your true self nevertheless shines through.
"Unlike with Trump, there is no evidence Hillary Clinton revealed any classified information to third parties."
Except for the 1000s of those emails sent to Anthony Weiner's laptop. So that he could print them out for his wife, Hillary's aide.
That's Watta-bout-Jism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But that's different, the Democrats at the FBI determined she didn't intend to reveal any classified material, therefore she didn't!
One of the best developments of all this is that the party of law and order fell out of love with the actual agents of law and order because they wouldn't prosecute their enemies and insisted on investigating dodgy people with dodgy Russian connections.
Nige-bot speaking to himself and boring the fuck out of himself.
edgebot wishes someone would talk to it
Haha, no, that's Bumble. Like Mickey Rivers he flutters around the fray, trying to engage with his one-sentence insults, but no one will play with him. Yes, he's effeminate, and not an attorney, but won't someone play with Bumble?
Don't throw shade on Mickey Rivers. Guy was a fine player, even though he did walk like his feet hurt.
Down with sucker punchers!
There is such a thing as a political prosecution. Which may include Trump. That being said, her non-prosecution was explicitly political. There is an enough evidence to convict any person not named Hillary Clinton. Comey himself said there is an enough evidence to indict. And the charges involved don't have mens rea attached, so it doesn't matter if she had a guilty mind or not.
You need to check your facts. You're confused on a couple points.
I'm sure you'd be happy to point those out.
Totally agree. Do you think they think we like the FBI? I can't wait for these "reform" bills crippling it (and FISA and section 702).
They'll burn anything down if it gets in their way, but we probably won't be keen on whatever they replace it with.
The FBI has never been run by a Democrat. It’s either been a Republican or an independent.
Spent a significant chunk of its existence targeting civil rights groups anti-war groups and anything vaguely leftward, so now we’re suddenly supposed to believe they’re Clinton partisans.
The one thing Banana Republics all have in common: No sense of honor, or shame.
The indictment of a POTUS is a thing of shame, a national disgrace, and a stain on the honor of this country. I have read no comment that speaks to this. The legal process and arguments around POTUS Trump will play out over time; the die has been cast. I am saddened more than anything else; America has proudly and petulantly sunk so low, thanks to our putrid political environment and the politicians in it. I sense no shame for this country in Professor Somin's writings, or the 160+ comments here.
Banana Republics have no shame, or honor. That is what separated America from them. Can we say that now?
The shameful thing was electing Trump in the first place.
Stay in your lane.
and the second place if it hadn't been stolen in 2020 (Sorry, Georgia/PA/MI/AZ counts were illegal as fuck, lets see, election night Trumps ahead by 600,000 votes, each day it magically comes down 100,000 until a week later when Senescent Joe squeaks out a victory)
Would it be a stain on the country to indict Trump if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue?
Not if it was that New York Knee-Grow Alan Bragg, Trump would actually get a shorter sentence for that, then he would for whatever this bullshit is that Bragg charged him with.
The indictment of a POTUS is a thing of shame
A telling choice of scope. You're sad about the wrong thing.
A President being a criminal is a thing of shame. It's the actual doing of the crimes that's the shame, not the enforcing of the law.
Bill Clinton committing sexual assaults on multiple Bee-Otches??, nice of you to admit it, if a little late to the (Sex) Party
You’re just as fucking pathetic as always.
It seems impossible to get a Trump jizz receptacle to care about facts or law.
They only lament whatever Trump wants them to.
What a bunch of anti-American, morally bankrupt losers you dumb fucks are.
OK, you're the expert on Jizz receptacles (wouldn't it be easier to just say "your mouth"??)
Facts of law? like how Ted Kennedy served 25 years for leaving a young woman to asphyxiate?? (not drowned, there's a difference) Oh yeah, there's rumors he was drunk and had impregnated her, but of course there was no BAT or Autopsy (Maybe exhume both?? Ted Kennedy III's probably still in MJK's snatch, and Ted's probably still drunk)
Or Eric Holder defied a Congressional Sub-penis (Contemptible Congress I think it's called) and Hillary Rodman running her own Server Farm? and I don't get it, Comey's the bad guy for NOT indicting her? so you guys wanted her indicted??
0-24's academic now, Senescent J has as much chance of being alive on erection day 0-24 as the late Diane-not-so-fine Stein (she is dead, isn't she? she looks dead) Not sure Common-Law Harris has the Ko-hones, and with some 900 million guns in Amurica, Calvin Loathsome's proposed repeal of the Second Amendment might not play well in Pretoria, (or Fithy-delphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami...)
Frank
In any other Western democracy, including my own, Hillary Clinton would have been charged and found guilty in a court of law.
There is NO other Western democracy that would copy your election law changes since 2020: ballot harvesting, decreased ID requirements, late ballot counting, not clearing ‘state’ (analogue regional) voting rolls, etc. And the gerrymandering, by both political colour teams, is a disgrace.
You scream about anti-racism whilst basically using illegals from your southern borders as neo-serfs. Your middle class is shrinking, poor getting poor, and your main goal is to have massive immigration of unskilled illiterate labour to abuse BECAUSE they're brown. (You would NOT, in all your blue cities and states, treat them this way today if they were white, and wouldn't even let them in en masse if they were black.)
You are anti-democracy, anti-rule of law, anti-truth. You are a pathetic disgrace and that fact that your country’s decline is marked by open authoritarianism is shameful.
Make the world a better place by killing yourself.
The indictment of a POTUS is a thing of shame, a national disgrace, and a stain on the honor of this country.
It is not the indictment which is a shame and a disgrace, but Trump's behavior and, let me add, the comments of his admirers and supporters. Indeed, failure to indict would be a disgrace.
America has proudly and petulantly sunk so low, thanks to our putrid political environment and the politicians in it. I sense no shame for this country in Professor Somin’s writings, or the 160+ comments here.
Do you think Donald Trump and his gang have any responsibility for the state of our politics?
It's a total shame. I called it a tragedy up above, you must've missed that one.
Hopefully future ex-presidents will have more respect for the country than this one does.
Like Senescent Joe will long enough to be an "Ex-President"
From the Grooveyard of Wattaboutism (rhymes with jism)
"Holder, a Democrat who served in former President Barack Obama's administration, was held in contempt by the House in June 2012 "for failing to disclose internal Justice Department documents in response to a subpoena." The White House and Justice Department did not attempt to criminally prosecute Holder after the contempt citation, CNN reported."
You look up "Banana Repubic" you see Bary Hussein and Eric Hold-em-up's picture!!!
Frank
But the classified document case brought by special counsel Jack Smith is much stronger. The indictment includes extensive evidence that that 1) the files were in fact classified, 2) Trump knew they were (they even have recordings of him saying so!), 3) Trump deliberately tried to withhold them, and 4) the classified information (at least some of it) was actually important (e.g.—war plans). This was not simply a case of him retaining some insignificant records that perhaps should never have been classified in the first place. For that reason, Trump's offense here posed a genuine risk to national security.
All of this may be true, but none of it is criminal. Perhaps the documents WERE classified, but when Trump, as President, removed them, they, ipso facto, became unclassified, under the President's inherent declassification authority. It doesn't matter how "significant" or "dangerous" they may have been.
If a low-level federal employee had done the same thing, the Justice Department would have thrown the book at him.
Unless they were friends of the Obamas or Clintons, of course. But, again, a "low-level" employee (at any level lower than "President"), of course, would not have inherent declassification authority.
'they, ipso facto, became unclassified,'
Even Trump isn't making the psychic declassification defence, though I suppose it's early days.
Do you think the President has to fill out the proper TPS reports or say the correct magic words to declassify a document?
Do you imagine a President addressing the nation on TV, "I would like to show you these recently declassified documents... Oh shit, you know what, I forgot to declassify them. I guess I'll turn myself in now because no one is above the law"?
You need to get your facts straight. Your furious defense ignores what Trump himself daid:
"“As president, I could have declassified, but now I can’t,”
“Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this. This was done by the military and given to me.”
“All sorts of stuff – pages long, look. Wait a minute, let’s see here. I just found, isn’t that amazing? This totally wins my case, you know. Except it is like, highly confidential. Secret. This is secret information. Look, look at this.”"
Those out-of-context statements are subject to various interpretations, especially given Trump's stream-of-consciousness manner of imprecise speaking.
"As president, I could have declassified but now I can't." This seems a statement of the obvious. Was this followed by, "and this document I'm showing you was not in fact declassified by me." What was the document? Was there even a document?
"This is secret information." And Trump, the trained lawyer, is of course, using "secret" in a precise way as it is defined in relevant statutes.
Look, I realize you want Trump to go to prison with every fiber of your being, but I believe criminal accusations are deadly serious matters, and should be subject to extremely rigorous standards.
Criminal accusations are serious, declassification is a joke, apparently.
Nige-bot discovers words with "ation" in them. Short Circuits when random lettter generator gets to "Masturb-"
Frank
edgebot reinvents the suffix
No "Bot"!! You're the Bot!!!!!!!
edgebot cracks
OK, if you want to play the fool:
The indictment detailes a meeting Trump held at his golf club in Bedminster, New Jersey, in July 2021 when he gave an interview to a writer and publisher in connection with a “then-forthcoming book,” which is believed to be the memoir of former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows.
Trump: “This is secret information. Look, look at this…”
Trump: “As president I could have declassified it. … Now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.”
Staffer: “Yeah [Laughter] Now we have a problem.”
Trump: “Isn’t that interesting?”
Quit parsing your way into bullshit and accept your dude was dumb and did crimes dumbly.
And read the fucking news already. Defending what you suppose happened is not working well for you.
"This" is "Secret Information" ??????
it depends on what Exactly "This" is.........
Oooh, Oooh, Oooh, Mr. Kot-tair did you see what I did there? I referenced William Juffuhsun Clinton's "It depends on what the meaning of "Is" is (pronounced "Izzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz")
Maybe the "Secret Information" is the documentation of Joe Biden's $$ 10,000,000 Extortion of You-Crane....
Frank
Thank God you’re obviously not a lawyer. Your moronic legal theories would have your clients constantly suing you for malpractice.
Better than getting sued for buggery, as you've obviously been.
I believe criminal accusations are deadly serious matters, and should be subject to extremely rigorous standards.
Then leave the legal opining to the lawyers.
Who died and made you King Sex Offender Jerry???
Just because you've hired lots of Lawyers, doesn't make YOU a Lawyer,
you've got the same AlGore Internet Credentials as Moi', i.e. "None"
I could be Clarence "Frogman" Thomas, or even Elen Kagan, just like you might not be Jerry Sandusky (you do have sort of an Avenatti vibe)
So go mind your own Bees-Wax, "Coach"
Frank "not a lawyer but watched every "Boston Legal" Episode (Denny Crane!) "
'or say the correct magic words to declassify a document?'
Yes. If he doesn't actually declassify documents, they're not declassified.
Nige-Bot playing in Schrodinger's Cat Box, comes away with Flea-Bots
Frank-bot
edgebot doesn't understand paradoxes
There may not be TPS reports, but there are magic words in that you’ve gotta at least tell somebody! If Trump on the morning of January 20th had been like “hey Mark, let’s declassify the contents of all these boxes, yeah?” then that would’ve been something.
Anyway, I think Trump knows how bad that would be politically. Even if not criminal, it’s worse: an abuse of the power of the office. Who’d want to return power to a guy who randomly rips the wraps off war plans and nuclear secrets for no articulable reason?
"War Plans"?? it was a USA Today level generalized DOD bullshit scenario on how an Ear-Ron wah would go (Let me guess "We fuck around for 20 years, get thousands of Amurican Servicemen killed and maimed (with DOD doing "Sexual Re-assignment Surgeries" we'll maim our own servicemen thank you very much!)
Nuke-ular Secrets?? (Are you Jimmuh Cartuh?? Die already!) Like that Hydrogen Bombs are made from Plutonium, that we have bunch? so does Roosha, Chy-Na!, Israel, India (WTF do they need them for) UK (they need to feel relevant), France (I'm actually more disturbed that France has Nukes than anyone else)
Frank
Again, it’s worse than that. Even if the declassification is effective as soon as Trump thinks it, he still has to actually do that. Not only has he very conspicuously avoided making that claim when it would have been helpful to his case, he has apparently admitted that he didn’t do that.
You should alert the court concerning your dispositive insights immediately.
Or, better, stop spouting silly bullshit.
Read the In-dick-ment, can't find the charges for violating 18 U.S.C. 921 et. seq, by falsifying his ATF Form 4473, up to 15 years in jail and $250,000 fine
Frank
If the evidence were so strong, why did the FBI spend all day in the facility and permit no one from Trump's legal team or staff to observe their actions? One might overlook this absolute breach if the FBI had not already participated for seven years in perpetrating vile and baseless lies about President Trump. There is no possibility that a fair jury would take at face value the photographs that the DOJ has publicized purporting to show boxes of files stored in insecure places as evidence that sensitive documents were stored outside the secure facility at Mar-a-Lago.
All those photos come from before the search.
Nige-bot tries to use 1950's Superman X-ray vision, can't remember where he put his bifocals.
edgebot forgets what he was about to say
Nigebot can't remember what he said
Oh my god guys, get a circuit.
He’s Hardy, I’m Stanley, you’re right, he’s like an un-funny Jerry Lewis (redundant??) while I’m the Suave, Cool Dino
edgebot wishes it was funny and likable but isn't willing to make an effort
edgebot getting repetitive
why did the FBI spend all day in the facility and permit no one from Trump’s legal team or staff to observe their actions?
Why did they spend all day in Tony Soprano's place, and not let Paulie Walnuts or Christopher Moltisanti observe?
So even if "45"'s "Pentagon Papers" were "Classified" he's just doing what (Dr.) Daniel Ellsberg did. Don't remember him doing any time at Club Fed, didn't even get charged for the war crimes he supposedly committed in Veet'nam. Marxist Stream Media made him a fucking Hero.
Frank
My bad, Ellsberg wasn't a POTUS and did actually steal the documents, unlike "45"
Wow, the Right Rev. is full of piss and vinegar this morning, but as always is mostly just full of shit.
Well the "Reverend" certainly has to shit where he sleeps at
https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
Actually had to spend a few hours in "Custody" at the Lee County Jail circa 1983 (some bogus charges of DUI, can't remember I was stoned to the Be-Jesus belt at the time) even in my "Condition" realized using the "Facilities" probably wasn't a good idea. Pissed into my pillow, remember the "Trustee" laughing at how much I'd "Sweated" as I left..
Frank "It's not Sweat"
Nicola Sturgeon, until recently the First Minister of Scotland, has just been arrested. I wonder if that makes Scotland a banana republic too.
Wow. And Boris Johnson still walks the streets a free man.
He did get a fixed penalty notice for breaking Covid regulations, but I'm not sure if he's been credibly accused of any other crimes. The recent uproar was about a possible contempt of Parliament, which isn't (otherwise) a crime.
The cronyism with which he shoveled money to chums during the pandemic is undeniable, but everyone in authority is acting as if Johnson's corruption is legal.
Possibly, but "cronyism" isn't as such a crime. And the crimes that are on the statute book do require some actual evidence. I don't know about the CPS, since they don't issue press releases unless someone is actually going on trial, but the Good Law Project have been litigating, but with limited success.
https://goodlawproject.org/issue/upholding-democracy/
Power protecting power.
The way "power" does that is by not doing a very good job at writing statutes for white collar crimes, not by somehow influencing the investigation of crimes.
Why not both?
Nigebot becomes self aware, still can't understand either/or concept.
edgebot actually losing intelligence
Because the CPS and the Procurator Fiscal Service are independent institutions staffed with career prosecutors. As Partygate has shown, putting pressure on them not to investigate something is likely to backfire.
Nige Bot discovers anagrams
edgebot likes lamp
Nige-bot gets infected with Computer Virus, dies.
edgebot getting wishful
Boris Johnson resigned from office the other day, reportedly after reading a pre-release version of the most recent inquiry concerning his conduct.
I expect he will be convicted of something before he is replaced.
He resigned from Parliament. I wouldn't describe that as an "office".
(For bonus points: technically you can't resign from the House of Commons. Instead, if a MP doesn't want to be an MP anymore, they ask to be appointed to certain executive branch offices, which automatically result in them losing their seat.)
Is it a republic, banana or otherwise?
They're still working on that. (Well, some within the SNP are.)
https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/politics/scottish-politics/4377030/snp-splits-over-future-of-monarchy-in-an-independent-scotland/
Sturgeon has now been released without charges.
"...and the public are therefore advised to exercise caution if discussing it on social media."
Wouldn't want to spread any unauthorized "dis-information" would we?
Spreading correct information can also be contempt of court. Active cases may not be discussed except with serious limitations, in order to avoid prejudicing the jury.
So everyone is free to have an opinion as long as they keep it to themselves?
Quite a system.
If ignorance is bliss, t'is folly to be wise. Or even informed.
Don’t look at me, I think juries are generally terrible. But if you’re going to have them, I can see why prejudicing potential jurors is something you’d worry about. In fact, this is something I see Trump fans complain about on the VC all the time.
So if we are to have juries, they should not be made up of people who can't separate their prejudices from the facts and the law as presented at trial?
Do such people exist?
That really didn't come out right.
What would your preference be as to a trier of fact?
A single judge, a panel of judges or something else?
A panel of judges of course. A single judge deciding anything more important than some preliminary case management issues is crazy. That just puts the parties at the mercy of luck, with the chance (hopefully) question of which judge they draw having major influence on the outcome of the case.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-are-classified-documents-trump-indictment
Bill Barr: "It's a very detailed indictment, and it is very, very damning. This idea of presenting Trump as a victim here, a victim of a witch hunt is ridiculous...He's not a victim here. He was totally wrong."
https://twitter.com/AccountableGOP/status/1667887846731010050
(h/t prof. Adler)
So many people speaking from authority. Who to believe?
I'd start by excluding the defendant and other people who have a vested interest in seeing him not convicted.
So you're excluding Hunter Biden, Senescent Joe, (Dr.) Mrs. Senescent Joe, Merrick Garfield, the Special Counsel who bears an amazing physical resemblance to Hunter G., Chairman Uncle Remus of the January 6th Committee, Gloria Stivik-Chaney, Pencil Neck,,,,,
Frank
...and next go to the current administration and the Democrat party which has a vested interest in seeing him convicted.
If you like. But Bill Barr isn't either of those things.
Never claimed an all inclusive list.
No, but you're the one who brought it up in response to me quoting Burr.
Aaron or Bill?
The traitor or a comedian.
Freudian typo. Aaron Burr was of course the man who was prosecuted while he was Vice-President. I wonder if the US was a banana republic in 1804 as well...
Burr’s life was a complicated one. He was charged with treason in 1807 mostly at the behest of the Democrat party founder, Thomas Jefferson. From wiki:
Jefferson issued an order for Burr’s arrest, declaring him a traitor before any indictment. Burr read this in a newspaper in the Territory of Orleans on January 10, 1807. Jefferson’s warrant put Federal agents on his trail.[76] Burr twice turned himself in to Federal authorities, and both times judges found his actions legal and released him.
There is much more to the story, but if it was a “banana republic” it was Jefferson leading the way, much as modern Democrats.
Curious when Bill Barr's reputation became rehabilitated? He hasn't been too much mentioned of late but a couple of years back he was roundly cast (by some) as a venal Trump shill...
"Curious when Bill Barr’s reputation became rehabilitated?"
Whenever it suits the narrative of Orange Man Bad.
Oh, no, it would work the same if he said something that helped or hurt DeSantis. More reason to pay attention if he says something unhelpful to the GOP.
Barr was of course one of Trump's major appointment fails, and the only thing that would be notable would be if he said or did anything unhelpful to the anti-Trump rump of the GOP.
Instead of quoting lazily from Wikipedia ( just after saying "Burr's life was a complicated one"), why don't you read Vidal's biography, or Fallen Founder?
And, as always, a cheap shot at Democrats today at the end. You are far from a serious person. And lazy.
Go ahead and provide the illuminating quote you think he missed, Lazy.
Whenever he says something against type. If he says something that benefits the GOP, there's no reason to pay much attention. If he says something that doesn't benefit the GOP, it's a different matter.
He should stick to playing the pipes.
Where should the half-educated racists, gullible gay-bashers, and delusional misfits the white, male Volokh Conspirators have cultivated as an audience be on the list?
a few hundred rungs below Coach Jerry Kirtland, I mean Sandusky
Your betters, AIDS, which includes educated people (across the political spectrum) in far more civilized countries than yours, fundamentally don’t trust your media, government, and former officials either. Certainly the entire Global South distrusts them too — and for good reason.
All Americans should have been forced to learn the fable, The Boy Who Cried Wolf, as children.
And don’t forget, AIDS: those American ‘half-educated racist, gullible gay-bashers, and delusional misfits’ are 100% going to Brevik YOUR grandchildren, BECAUSE they’re your grandchildren, when your country’s culture war turns hot. 🙂
Prof. Somin appears unconcerned that a jury may be required to adjudicate DJT's guilt without seeing and evaluating the documents upon which the indictments are based.
DOJ claiming "Trust us they're terrible" seems to be a good basis for reasonable doubt.
Also unaddressed is DOJ's stategy of running concurrent grand juries in DC and SDoF. IMO DOJ dearly wants to take two bites of this apple.
Why is the specific content important to adjudicating whether Trump did the crime? All that matters for that purpose is the status of the document.
IMO DOJ dearly wants to take two bites of this apple. Or there are different crimes taking place in different places. Lets wait and see which it is.
Agree that specific content shouldn't be important with a properly functioning national security apparatus. Rampant classification/ over-classification of innocuous documents calls into question actual harm to national security. It will be interesting to see how DOJ addresses harm and what arguments the trial judge allows.
re: two bites: Or DOJ wants to see DJT legal defenses in quick SDoF trial then tailor indictment on adjacent charges in slow DC trial to overcome exposed strategies. We'll see.
Overclassification is absolutely a problem, but that is not a defense to these crimes. I am unaware of an actual harm element either.
Good on you for agreeing with the wait and see. Whichever story we prefer, the facts will clarify shortly.
If the crime has an element of the documents relating to national defense, their content is relevant.
Wild guess: This guy (1) is not a lawyer and (2) is a disaffected clinger.
You hold yourself and claimed profession in unearned high esteem.
Well Jerry Sandusky is one of the "Best" Sex Criminals of all time and not a half-bad (more like 3/4 bad) Defensive Coordinator (good thing for him Klingers love State College)
VC's little pet troll is adorable!
Pretty impressive! Almost 24 hours and more than 500 comments, and no one has come up with even one defense that would pass the laugh test. I hope the trial is televised because it would be quite amusing to hear Trump’s lawyer argue to the jury that they must acquit him because (a) Hillary, Bill, Joe, Hunter, Ted Kennedy, Nixon, Petreus, and Berger; (b) the FBI and the DOJ hate him; (c) before noon on Inauguration Day he mentally declassified everything; and (d) Smith screwed up and had him indicted for things that aren’t even crimes. Can’t wait!
What defense can there be? He’s been boasting that he did it for the better part of a year. He either wanted this to happen or he’s truly as stupid as he comes across.
I would suggest there are two lines of defense. The first would be to challenge the Constitutionality of the Presidential Records Act and the Espionage Act. There is little doubt that he took document, some of which were classified. He has said he has every right to take them and so the defense would be to attack the constitutionality of the Acts. Second, he could also claim innocence by reason of mental defect. Looking at the pictures of boxes of document, I think the former Presidents lawyer could claim he has a hoarding disorder. A hoarding disorder would also be consistent with his refusal to give up the documents when asked to return them.
Then how did they end up on Anthony Weiner's laptop?
Except for the thousands of emails deleted by her Bleachbit program.
Trump's files were on physical paper, so any distribution was limited. Clinton's were in digital form so they could go out to thousands of people. And unlike Clinton, Trump had the authority to declassify anything. So yeah by many measures, Clinton's violations were worse. It's a HUGE double standard.
True, although certainly you recall the Clinton-Trump debate where Trump said she should be in jail. At the time, analysts were horrified that one political opponent was saying that about another one, they claimed that made it look like we were a banana republic (and yet now they change their tune?) So that's probably why it didn't happen.
There was one more similar high-profile case - David Petraeus. And his penalty was he had his clearance suspended and was fined. It didn't go criminal, and didn't involve the espionage act. Even if you think Trump is 100% guilty, they could have done this without so much theatrics. The over the top antics like SWAT teams raiding Mar-a-Lago and invoking the Espionage act, on a man who likely will the primary opponent running against the President in the next election, makes this exactly the kind of crap that banana republics pull.
Petraeus admitted guilt and negotiated a plea early and so it was entered on an information rather than an indictment, but it definitely was criminal - 18 U.S.C. §1924 Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material. The offense is punishable by up to 5 years but his deal was for 2 years probation and a $100,000 fine.
And regarding searches - the FBI executed a search warrant at the Petraeus home in Arlington just five months after he resigned as CIA director. That was when they found the notebooks he had retained. In contrast they showed great patience to let Trump string them along for a year and a half.
There were no classified emails involved in the Weiner laptop thing.
Surprise! Nige lies again:
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/report-at-least-18-classified-emails-discovered-on-anthony-weiners-laptop/
Certainly you recall that Biden has not said that Trump should be in jail, right? And that the moment Trump announced he was running for president, Biden's AG appointed a special prosecutor, right?
Actually, he has:https:
http://www.businessinsider.com/president-biden-believes-trump-should-be-prosecuted-for-jan-6-riot-nyt-2022-4
And his special prosecutor is of course intent on doing just that, and preventing Trump as far as possible from campaigning meanwhile..
What did you intend your point to be?
“True, although certainly you recall the Clinton-Trump debate where Trump said she should be in jail. At the time, analysts were horrified that one political opponent was saying that about another one, they claimed that made it look like we were a banana republic (and yet now they change their tune?) So that’s probably why it didn’t happen.“
Trump refusing to do something because it would horrify analysts?? That’s lame. In fact, once in office Trump did order his Justice Department to investigate her. They didn’t find anything to indict her with.
I know right? Those straight-down-the-line politically neutral civil servants at the DOJ gave it that ol' honest try and couldn't find a single thing!!
That's so true!
If not Trump's own Justice Department, then who would you expect to go after Hillary?
He probably thinks Trump should have called on True Patriot militias to do it if the Deep State wouldn't. Just like how convicted seditionist Stewart Rhodes had hoped Trump would call on True Patriot militias to Stop the Steal.
"If not Trump’s own Justice Department, then who would you expect to go after Hillary?"
What is THAT supposed to be a test of? Why would we expect ANYone to go after Clinton if we think Trump is all hat and no cattle?
More than one 'conservative' commenter here claims they read the indictment.
None of them cited anything from it. None of them addressed the evidence contained within it. None offered up even a single plausible excuse for why any of the facts we now know are somehow incomplete, and how a clearer understanding will clear Trump's name.
You're all a bunch of cowardly, sycophantic liars without any moral convictions whatsoever.
Your government is authoritarian and corrupt. Even though most of us loathe Trump as a person, we in the rest of the world, across the political spectrum, no longer can believe you. YOU have given us ample reasons never to trust your government ever again, and NOT just because of Clinton-gate, Russia-gate, the incessant propaganda over the last few years, the fucking over of your Western allies, etc.
YOU have no (good) moral convictions. YOU are pathological liars. YOUR government is a banana republic. YOUR country, and its empire, is collapsing.
Gandy just posting through it. Reads nothing, is proven wrong multiple times.
Is 11% of the posts in this thread.
They call this threadshitting.
That provision of the Constitution is all the defense Trump needs. All laws regarding classification of documents and their handling apply to everyone - except one individual: the President of the United States. Any law that purported to say otherwise would be unconstitutional.
Some have made preposterous claims that ultimate declassification authority may rest with some faceless bureaucrats in the executive department rather than the actual head of the executive branch as stated in the Constitution. That argument is not only absurd on its face, but frightening. It says there is an unelected "Deep State" within the executive branch that the President must answer to, rather than the other way around.
The president can declassify anything and everything he wants and show those documents to the world if he wants. He doesn't have to follow some "process" to declassify; the power is inherent to the President. Their content is irrelevant. With that, the entire indictment falls apart.
Anyone who thinks Hillary didn't reveal top secret information to foreign actors should listen to Comey's July 2016 statement. He made it clear that she had used unsecured communication devices when in countries that were hostile to the U.S. and sent and received top secret information on those devices through her unsecured server. Only a blind partisan would believe that Russia, China, Iran and many other countries hadn't penetrated her unsecured server and eavesdropped on her unsecured phones. Also, she destroyed communication devices that the FBI had requested. Note also that Comey was careful to say that the FBI investigation only related to her most recent server, and that she had had a number of previous servers that the FBI were not able to access. So yes, even worse than Trump. And Somin also carefully avoids mentioning the Presidential Records Act, which provides some legal justification for Trump removing records when leaving office. There is no such legislation giving the same rights to Vice Presidents or Secretaries of State.