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First-Grade Teacher's "Pursu[ing] Her Own Transgender Agenda Outside the Curriculum" May Violate Constitutional Parental Rights
Some excerpts from the long decision in Tatel v. Mt. Lebanon School Dist., decided yesterday by Judge Joy Flowers Conti (W.D. Pa.) (and see also the earlier decision in the case):
This case involves the extent of parents' constitutional rights when a public school permits a teacher to inculcate the teacher's beliefs about transgender topics in first-grade students over the objections of their parents. As noted in this court's October 27, 2022 opinion (the "first motion to dismiss opinion"), this case is not about treating all students with kindness, tolerance and respect.
Here, the parents allege that their children's first-grade teacher pursued her own transgender agenda outside the curriculum, which included: (1) instructing the children in her first-grade class that their parents might be wrong about their children's gender; (2) telling a student that the child could dress like a different gender and be like the teacher's transgender child (who was also in first grade in a different school); (3) telling a student that she, the teacher, would never lie (implying that the parents may lie about their child's gender identity); and (4) instructing students not to tell their parents about the transgender discussions. The teacher allegedly targeted the children's own gender identity and their parents' beliefs about the gender identity of their own children.
When the parents complained, the school district supported the teacher and allegedly adopted a policy (the "de facto policy") that the teacher's conduct could continue in the future without notice to the parents or the opportunity to opt their children out of that kind of agenda (despite providing broad parental notice and opt out rights for other topics). At this stage of the case, these averments must be accepted as true and construed in the light most favorable to Plaintiffs.
The defendants do not challenge the averments about the existence of the de facto policy. Instead, citing Parker v. Hurley (1st Cir. 2008), a decision from the First Circuit Court of Appeals, they argue that in a public school, parents have no constitutional right to notice or to opt their children out of any kind of instruction, regardless of the content of that instruction, the age of the children, or whether the instruction is part of the published school curriculum. See ECF No. 42 at 8 ("Parents have no constitutional right to exempt their children from classroom lessons, including those on transgender issues"). In other words, the defendants argue that parents simply have no constitutional right to notice or to object to any information a public school may present to their children.
The defendants' argument is contrary to Third Circuit Court of Appeals precedent, which recognizes that a public school's actions may conflict with parents' fundamental constitutional rights and when conflicts occur on matters of the greatest importance, the parents' rights prevail unless the public school can demonstrate a compelling interest for its actions. C.N. v. Ridgewood Bd. Of Educ. (3d Cir. 2005); Gruenke v. Seip (3d Cir. 2000). The court adheres to its original decision that the parents' constitutional rights at issue here (forming the identity of their young children) are matters of the greatest importance and takes this opportunity to further explain and clarify its analysis….
On October 27, 2022, the court issued the initial motion to dismiss opinion …. A motion for reconsideration pursuant to Rule 54(b) and a motion to amend judgment pursuant to Rule 59(e) … were filed by the … defendants ….
The Complaint alleges that Williams engaged in "grooming" conduct toward one Plaintiff's child despite (or because of) that Plaintiff's objections, as follows:
[78.] The child of one of the Plaintiffs explained to his mother that Williams had told him, "I can wear a dress and have hair like my mom." When Plaintiff raised this with Williams at a parent-teacher conference, Williams deflected, contending that it must have been a misunderstanding and indicating that maybe it was confusion about Halloween. Plaintiff refuted this assertion, letting Williams know that what her son had told her was "very clear" and expressing her displeasure with what Williams had said to her son.
[79.] Despite knowing this Plaintiff's objections, or upon information and belief because of them, Williams appears to have targeted this child for repeated approaches about gender dysphoria. Although Plaintiff did not discover Williams' invasion of her parental and family rights until the spring, throughout the school year, Williams had private conversations with this young boy, discussing with him the similarities between the boy and her transgender child again suggesting that the boy might want to wear a dress, at other times commenting to him how the boy and her transgender child had similar interest[s] and the same favorite color, and telling the child that he could be like her transgender child. Williams explained to this young boy that "doctors can get it wrong sometimes." In the course of these private discussions, Williams also told this young boy that "she would never lie to him" and, if the subjects they were discussing came up at home, to say that "I heard it from a little birdie." In other words, upon information and belief, while having private discussions with this young boy about topics related to gender dysphoria, she told the child not to tell his parents about the discussions. Williams' "grooming" of this young student is unconscionable. It is a gross breach of trust and an abuse of her position as a public school teacher….
Defendants' primary argument is that "parents have no constitutional right to remove their child from instruction." (ECF No. 42 at 3) (emphasis added); (ECF No. 42 at 8) ("Parents have no constitutional right to exempt their children from classroom lessons, including those on transgender issues") (emphasis added). According to Defendants, the age of the child, the topic and whether the information is part of the official curriculum are irrelevant—parents simply have no constitutional right to notice or to object to any information a public school may present to their children.
Defendants' refusal to recognize any parental rights in a public school setting is contrary to clear, binding Supreme Court and Third Circuit Court of Appeals authority. The court's initial motion to dismiss opinion quoted numerous Supreme Court decisions which emphasized the fundamental nature of the parental rights at issue. In Gruenke, the court cautioned: "Public schools must not forget that 'in loco parentis' does not mean 'displace parents.'" In C.N., the Third Circuit Court of Appeals reaffirmed that "parents, not schools, have the primary responsibility to inculcate moral standards, religious beliefs, and elements of good citizenship." …
As the court explained in its initial motion to dismiss opinion, Defendants' position follows the approach taken in Fields v. Palmdale School District (9th Cir. 2005), in which the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that parents forfeit any right to control their child's education if they choose to send their children to public school. In C.N., the Third Circuit Court of Appeals specifically rejected the reasoning in Fields …. Defendants distort decisions holding that parental rights are not absolute to argue that parents have no rights at all….
In the Third Circuit, courts (and school officials) must distinguish "between actions that strike at the heart of parental decision-making authority on matters of the greatest importance and other actions that, although perhaps unwise and offensive, are not of constitutional dimension." … The court, therefore, must determine whether the claims in this case implicate a matter of great importance with respect to parental authority. Defendants argue, conclusorily, that Williams' alleged conduct may be ill-advised and offensive, but does not strike at the heart of parental decision-making. The court adheres to its conclusions in its initial opinion that the issues in this case plausibly rise to constitutional importance:
Teaching a child how to determine one's gender identity at least plausibly is a matter of great importance that goes to the heart of parenting. See, e.g., Doe by & through Doe v. Boyertown Area Sch. Dist. (3d Cir. 2018) (gender identity implicates a person's "deep-core sense of self")….
[I]ntroducing and teaching a child about complex and sensitive gender identity topics before the parent would have done so can undermine parental authority. A teacher instructing first graders that the child's parents' beliefs about gender identity may be wrong and the teacher's beliefs are correct directly repudiates parental authority….
See Ricard v. USD 475 Geary Cnty., KS Sch. Bd. (D. Kan. 2022) ("It is difficult to envision why a school would even claim—much less how a school could establish—a generalized interest in withholding or concealing from the parents of minor children, information fundamental to a child's identity, personhood, and mental and emotional well-being such as their preferred name and pronouns."). Defendants, allegedly, are interfering with the Parents' right to form their young children's identities. In this case, allegedly, young children are being instructed by their first-grade teacher that their parents may be wrong about the children's gender; one boy was secretly groomed to change his identity to be like the teacher's transgender child; and (in response to the parents' complaints) Defendants adopted a de facto policy that such conduct could continue in the future without parental notice or opt out rights. That kind of conduct implicates the heart of parental decision-making on matters of the greatest importance, i.e., rises to constitutional importance….
Defendants rely heavily on the decision in Parker, in which the First Circuit Court of Appeals addressed a challenge to a statewide curriculum teaching tolerance of gay marriage, which had recently been legalized in Massachusetts…. Parker, however, did not endorse the constitutionality of the kind of conduct alleged in this case and this court must be mindful of the precedential decisions of the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. In addition, Parker did not specifically evaluate the limited relief of notice and opt out rights for a parent's own children against the school's interest….
The parents in Parker objected to a public school's refusal to provide notice and opt out rights with respect to certain reading assignments, including: two books in kindergarten and first-grade about diverse families, including same gender parents; and a second-grade book that depicted and celebrated a gay marriage. The parents were concerned that the books were an effort to indoctrinate their children. The court in Parker commented: "The fact that a school promotes tolerance of different sexual orientations and gay marriage when such tolerance is anathema to some religious groups does not constitute targeting." The court explained that "[t]he school was not singling out plaintiffs' particular religious beliefs or targeting its tolerance lessons to only those children from families with religious objections to gay marriage."
The curriculum at issue in Parker was designed to increase children's tolerance of families that may not be like a child's own family. In Parker, the court recognized "a continuum along which an intent to influence could become an attempt to indoctrinate, however, [the Parker] case is firmly on the influence-toward-tolerance end." The lengthy discussion in Parker about indoctrination shows the court's concern that conduct beyond encouraging tolerance may intrude into the family relationship and be actionable. The court in Parker did not reach the issue whether indoctrination could violate parental constitutional rights, because it concluded that indoctrination was not factually alleged, i.e., there was no constant stream of like materials or required reading of many like books.
This case, by stark contrast, involves not merely instruction to influence tolerance of other children or families, but efforts to inculcate a teacher's beliefs about transgender topics in Plaintiffs' own children. Unlike in Parker, the allegations in this case go beyond mere reading of a few books. Here, the teacher allegedly pursued her agenda throughout the school year, including teaching first-graders that their parents may be wrong about their gender, telling one boy could dress like his mother, and telling the children to keep the teacher's discussions about gender topics secret from their parents. Williams allegedly encouraged her first-grade students that they might be a different gender than their own parents told them. In other words, it was the children's own family and their own gender identity that Williams targeted. Plaintiffs allege that Williams targeted one child for repeated approaches about gender dysphoria despite, or because of, the parents' beliefs. It is reasonable to infer that Williams intended to influence the children's own gender identity and to have at least one child become like the teacher's transgender child.
Construed in the light most favorable to Plaintiffs, the Complaint sufficiently alleges that, on the continuum, Williams' conduct went beyond influencing children toward tolerance and she attempted to indoctrinate first-grade students about how to form the students' own gender identity, contrary to the values or beliefs of their Parents. These allegations, in contrast to the situation in Parker, support a reasonable inference of an attempt to indoctrinate young children on matters that strike at the heart of parental decision-making….
The court in Parker [also] concluded that the parents' only remedy was to engage in political action to change the curriculum for all students. ("If the school system has been insufficiently sensitive to such religious beliefs, the plaintiffs may seek recourse to the normal political processes for change in the town and state."). The suggestion that parents must engage in politics to protect their constitutional rights is contrary to law….
The court adheres to its conclusion that there is a fundamental circuit split between decisions like Parker and Fields and Third Circuit Court of Appeals' precedents like Gruenke, C.N. and Combs. Parker's narrow interpretation of the Supreme Court precedents about parental rights is problematic…. Parker and Fields represent a "school-primacy" view, under which parents whose children attend a public school have no constitutional rights…. The Third Circuit Court of Appeals, by contrast, adopts a "parent-primacy" approach….
The court also concluded that plaintiffs had adequately stated Free Exercise Clause claims, for much the same reasons as given with regard to their parental rights claims; and it concluded that they adequately stated Equal Protection Clause claims, on the grounds that they were treated differently from "parents who are given notice and opt out rights under District Policy I(F) or by practice on numerous other sensitive secular or religious topics. Defendants did not articulate any basis (let alone a compelling basis) for adopting a de facto policy that eliminates notice and opt out rights for parents affected by Williams' transgender agenda while permitting notice and opt out rights for other secular or religious topics." And it concluded that defendants weren't entitled to qualified immunity, because the law was sufficiently well-settled.
As I noted before, I'm skeptical about claims of parents' constitutional right to opt out from parts of public school curricula, and even from teacher speech that isn't a formal part of the curriculum. (I'm likewise skeptical about K-12 teachers' claims of a constitutional right to include in their teaching things that the school doesn't want them to include.) I think all those decisions should generally be left to the political process. Establishment Clause precedents make this complicated when it comes to religious speech, and there's some First Amendment right for students to be free from some kinds of compelled speech, such as pledges of allegiance and the like, but those are separate matters. Still, I think this is an important decision that's worth noting.
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"instructing students not to tell their parents" about anything seems like a pretty clear first amendment violation. Kids have a first amendment right to tell their parents whatever they want.
In any event, any such instruction should result in immediate firing.
Kids have a first amendment right to tell their parents whatever they want.
Indeed they do, and it would come into play if the school took or threatened any action against a kid for going against the “instruction” not to tell his or her parents something. But not until.
A teacher is in a position of authority, and any instruction carries an implied threat of action. If a teacher instructs you to not chew gum in class, it means that she will punish you if you chew gum in class.
Kids must be a lot more deferential now than they were in my day.
First graders in your day were all like, "Fuck you, Teach! Come take my gum, bitch!"?
If you say so.
Definitely evidence that the teacher is engaged in something inappropriate. Not obvious that the inappropriate thing is necessarily a 1A violation. "Don't tell your parents" could also be about stealing from the petty cash drawer.
But yeah, that alone is grounds for summary dismissal.
Of the teacher, not the complaint, I assume.
Yes, the teacher. Sorry, should have remembered the audience and been clearer.
Never apologize, Mister; it's a sign of weakness.
... a policy of not outing people as gay or transgender is hard to understand? Give me a world where gay and trans folk are accepted with no qualms by everybody and I'll agree. Until then, that's not your call to make, even if you are a teacher.
To the rest... well, as the court says, at this stage they must assume facts are most favorable to plaintiffs. I suspect that in a trial things will look very different.
Unless the teacher in question has concrete evidence of that specific interaction leading to physical harm of that specific child by their parents, then there is no possible interest.
Nope.
It is a person's choice when to come out and to whom. That they chose to come out to you does not give you any right to out them to someone else.
This doesn't change just because you're talking about teachers.
A first-grader? You're saying that the adult teachers and school staff should submit to the whims of a six-year-old?
Of course not. I'm saying that the only ethical policy is "don't out students".
Whims and ages are irrelevant.
That said, just how much "submission" does it take for you to not out someone against their will?
Age is hardly irrelevant: Young children are simply incompetent to make consequential life choices! They have neither the intellectual development nor the accumulated experience to make them.
Any policy that pretends otherwise is just a cover for a policy of transferring to somebody other than the parents those choices that DO have to be made by somebody with both, AKA 'an adult'.
And the idea that a 6 year old kid is going to make a considered decision that they're the opposite gender is literally insane. I mean that, it's genuinely clinical.
That seems precisely the reason organized religions strive to commence indoctrination before children are ready to distinguish superstition and fairy tales from reason and reality.
Without childhood indoctrination, how many adults would be religious?
"That seems precisely the reason organized religions strive to commence indoctrination before children are ready to distinguish superstition and fairy tales from reason and reality."
And states, political organizations, etc.
Which states and political organizations target toddlers and elementary school students in a manner than resembles the conduct of organized religion?
Is there a State of New York Sunday school providing instruction in state regulatory requirements or the names of long-dead party leaders?
Does the Democratic Party dunk children in water?
Does the Republican Party conduct "first party membership" ceremonies for seven- or eight-year-olds?
Does any state or political organization cut off part of a child's genitals?
Well, the leftists are into cutting off all of the child's genitals, and breasts.
¨Young children are simply incompetent to make consequential life choices!¨
Brett, when did you ¨choose¨ to be cisgendered? What criteria did you use to make your ¨choice¨?
Now do genderfluid people and explain the stunning growth rate of LGBTQ identification.
Still waiting, Brett. When and how did you ¨choose¨ to be cisgendered?
You don't chose to be heterosexual, not guilty. You ARE heterosexual. But not at the age of six!
No one ¨chooses¨ his/her sexual orientation or gender identity, Brett. Each characteristic is innate.
You are a pig.
You literally wrote that as a response to me SAYING "You don't chose to be heterosexual." Are you even reading what I'm writing?
No, you don't chose your sexual orientation. My point is that at the age we're discussing here, your sexual orientation may already be stamped on your genes, but it hasn't yet manifested. Nobody's straight or 'gay' at the age of six!
If some kid in first grade 'comes out' as trans, it's because they were coached to do so.
You posited upthread that ¨Young children are simply incompetent to make consequential life choices!¨ That presupposes that one´s gender identity and/or sexual orientation are ¨chosen¨ by that person. Don´t go sideways on that because I have called out your presupposition.
Correct me if I misstate your position, but it appears to me that you are claiming that someone can ¨choose¨ to be LGBT, but cannot ¨choose¨ to be heterosexual. As a fundamentalist preacher from my childhood was fond of saying (albeit in other contexts), that doesn´t even make good nonsense.
The notion that one ¨chooses¨ orientation -- whether heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual -- is a pernicious falsehood.
"You posited upthread that ¨Young children are simply incompetent to make consequential life choices!¨ That presupposes that one´s gender identity and/or sexual orientation are ¨chosen¨ by that person."
No, actually it doesn't. Try not to read crazy stuff into what I write, and then get mad at me about it.
Brett, I don't agree with the people arguing with you, but why did you switch topics from transgender to sexual orientation?
How is that switching topics? Isn't "transgender" definitionally dependent on having a sexual orientation?
Transgender is about what gender you identify with
Sexual orientation is about who you are attracted to.
While the majority of trans individuals would indeed be attracted to those of the opposite gender than they identify as, just like the majority of cis individuals, that isn’t a requirement. Some are attracted to both/all (bisexual or pansexual) and I imagine some would still be attracted to only the gender they identify as, though that I am sure is pretty rare.
There is more to what gender you identify as than who are attracted to so it isn’t the same thing or a proxy. Though I should say for purposes of this thread I don't think a first grader would know/be capable of knowing if they have gender dysphoria. They would however know they enjoy or like things that are different from how they are being treated or even discouraged from doing. They wouldn't know gender norms are a reason for this disconnect though
No. They have nothing to do with each other. A person who identifies as transgender might be attracted to someone of any sex.
I don't know about Brett, but I wanted to be a girl until I was in college. During my college years I decided it was silly and gave it up. It would take more space and energy than I have here to explain in any detail why my original wish was silly and misguided and based on some serious intellectual errors about the nature of reality, but that was the reasoning that moved me.
"Brett, when did you ¨choose¨ to be cisgendered? What criteria did you use to make your ¨choice¨?"
Out of curiosity, when did heteros ever approve this "cis" BS?
You want people to respect pronouns while that group absolutely does not do the same?
"I mean that, it’s genuinely clinical."
Remind us all again Brett: What medical school did you attend?
Raise your own kids, and shut the fuck up about the rest of them.
I attended the "school of actually having been a human being", obviously.
So to be clear, you did not attend medical school, and have no expertise whatsoever to be making claims like you do?
That's what everyone thought.
Semi-yes on the first, I did take 4 years of human biology, as I was pursuing a career in biomedical instrumentation. But we didn't get into things like sexual orientation, just anatomy and physiology.
Wrong on the second: I'm a human being, so I'm familiar with what being a human being is like. Like I said elsewhere, you don't need a degree in nephrology to know that eating salty foods makes you thirsty. You don't need a degree in psychology to know that 1st graders don't have sexual orientations.
You need to be a human, and not in denial.
"You don’t need a degree in psychology to know that 1st graders don’t have sexual orientations."
When will you learn?
They most certainly do, because it's an inherent trait of everyone to have some kind of sexual identity.
Are they fucking? Hopefully not. Do they understand what being hetero, homo, or asexual, etc., actually means? Generally no.
But do they have a sexual preference already? Yep.
You are a fucking clown, Bellmore. You've been proven wrong, and still sit there proclaiming that "being human" is enough of a reason to believe you, as opposed to believing Doctors, and scientists, and those who actually specialize in this subject.
Those Doctors and scientists are also human beings, and they say you're full of shit.
Circular reasoning.
12IP -
You're dumber than Bellmore if you'd like to dispute that fact.
That's not an argument. If it were true, you'd be able to support it.
I didn’t think you were that retarded, but ok.
Since “sexual identity” covers everything from being sexually attracted to at least one kind of person, to not being attracted to anyone sexually at all, and we know it isn’t a choice….
Looks like everyone’s covered by that venn diagram eh?
You’re too fucking stupid to bother with any further.
No. Sexual identity is how someone thinks about their sexual activity. It most certainly not genetic. It also does not - cannot - exist for someone who is pre-sexual. Like, for example, a six year old child. Same with sexual preference.
Inherent factors can influence these, but they do not exist from birth - only about 1% of adult sexuality can be even weakly correlated with genetics.
Stop pretending that first graders have a sexual identity, or sexual preferences, when they don't even know what sex it.
Raise your own kids, and shut the fuck up about the rest of them.
Weird that you're so infatuated with lefty scum grooming children.
Weird that even the Marines didn't want you.
What kind of dumb-ass, brain-dead response is that? Do the rest of humanity a favor and submit yourself for MAS.
Um, isn't that what the parents here are saying to this teacher?
"Raise your own kids, and shut the fuck up about the rest of them."
Are you cool with FGM?
And you want us to believe that the left isn't pro-pedophilia.
How far does this principle extend? Do teachers have an obligation to not report suicidal ideation? Insubordination? Communist sympathies? Bomb threats?
To quote myself...
But hey, y'all proved me wrong. Apparently it is hard for you to understand.
What you seem to have trouble accepting is that we're discussing a case about 1st graders. The idea that a first grader could be "gay or transgender" is a category error, prepubescent children are practically neuter.
The only way they're going to think they're that is if somebody coached them to think it.
If a first grader is a sexual being they’ve been forced into it by an adult.
If a first grader is experimenting with various things across gender lines that may just be childhood experimentation.
The difference tends to be evil adults with an agenda somewhere in the child’s life.
Again, cite your medical experience Brett.
What high education did you receive which taught you about the sexuality of children and what ages they may or may not develop attraction to the same or opposite sex?
None? You're just talking out your giant asshole again? Yikes.
If somebody says, "Eating salty foods makes you thirsty", you don't ask to see their degree in nephrology. We're talking about a fundamental fact about the species we're all presumably members of.
Jason's jerk of a comment in response to Brett "Jason Cavanaugh 9 hours ago
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Again, cite your medical experience Brett.
What high education did you receive which taught you about the sexuality of children and what ages they may or may not develop attraction to the same or opposite sex?
None? You’re just talking out your giant asshole again? Yikes."
Jason - Is there a particular reason your response is being jerk?
Why would you need significant "medical experience " or a high level of education for something that is basic common knowledge. Are you simply demonstrating your pathetic lack of basic knowledge which most individuals obtain before graduating from high school. Is it a badge of honor among progressives to display such ignorance?
It's actually a badge of honor, a clan identifier, to deny obvious facts in favor of ideology.
You ask somebody to agree with something that's obviously true, it has no utility as a loyalty badge, they might just agree with it because it's true.
But if you ask somebody to agree to some radically stupid proposition, like "6 year olds have established sexual preferences", nobody's going to agree with that because it's true, it's NOT true. So you know anybody willing to embarrass themselves by agreeing is a loyal member of the team.
Childhood development is the same thing as eating salty foods making you thirsty?
Wow. Why in the fuck do we have medical degrees specializing in children's health if it's just a bunch of 'fundamental facts' that any dipshit named Brett Bellmore can just discern without any experience or knowledge whatsoever?
https://www.hopkinsallchildrens.org/Patients-Families/Health-Library/HealthDocNew/Understanding-Early-Sexual-Development
John's Hopkins (perhaps you've heard of the place) seem to think that you're full of shit, Mr. Fundamental Facts.
When will you learn to just shut the fuck up about things you don't understand?
Sure, I've heard of Johns Hopkins. I interviewed with them back in '77, they would have been glad to have me, but I ended going to an in-state university instead because they were darned expensive, and so far from home. Still not sure I made the right call there.
Johns Hopkins closed their "gender identity" clinic back in '79, because follow ups on gender 'reassignment' surgery indicated that the long term prognosis was bad enough that the procedure just couldn't be medically justified. The patients that underwent the procedure didn't do any better than the controls.
Then in 2017, they reversed that policy. Not because of the data changing, because the politics changed.
So, I take anything they publish these days with enough salt to cause hypertension. The politics are calling the shots there these days, not the science.
Jason Cavanaugh 55 mins ago
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jason's response to Brett - "Wow. Why in the fuck do we have medical degrees specializing in children’s health if it’s just a bunch of ‘fundamental facts’ that any dipshit named Brett Bellmore can just discern without any experience or knowledge whatsoever?"
John’s Hopkins (perhaps you’ve heard of the place) seem to think that you’re full of shit, Mr. Fundamental Facts.
When will you learn to just shut the fuck up about things you don’t understand?"
Jason - is getting upset and lashing out at others simply because of his embarrassment of not knowing basic biological facts. Fwiw - what brett is stating in basic common knowledge.
"Gender identity" = "an awareness of being a boy or a girl".
This is a far cry from "sexual identity" or an understanding of what sex is.
Stop trying to interchange words that have distinctly different meanings, even in the modern made-up alphabet-crew world.
No, we just wanted you to be super clear that you're applying special pleading to brainwashing kids about something they can't understand. And you did.
Age is not "irrelevant", it's the most important aspect!
Six year old children do not have a sexual identity. They don't even understand sex, much less have detailed opinions about proper sexual organ matchups. There are many things that adults are allowed do that children cannot, and many that a 12 or 16 year old are allowed that a 6 year old is not, and sux-related stuff is right there in the heart of the topic.
Are you arguing that six year old children are competent to make sexual decisions as adults?
Yup. Even more clearly, babies and one year old children don't have a gender identity. And of course, no one can identify as a gender when they asleep or cognitively impaired.
So I guess if the gender cultists were to be consistent, they'd have to believe that baby girls aren't girls, sleeping or cognitively impaired women aren't women, etc.
Be careful about falling into the language trap used by Jason and his ilk.
"Gender identity" is not the same thing as "sexual identity", even in the made-up language world of JasonC and his ilk.
I'm quite aware that there is a difference between the two, thank you very much.
If you are aware, then why do you present "gender identity" (meaning, knowing the difference between sexual organs) as evidence of "sexual identity"?
Not only that, but whims they encouraged in the first place.
Seriously, this teacher, and a good deal of the school administration, desperately need to be fired.
I doubt anyone* associated with the Mt. Lebanon School District -- a nationally recognized district serving a strong, educated, skilled, modern suburb -- is in the market for pointers on school operations from a disaffected, autistic, delusional bigot whose disdain for modern America causes him to reside with his mail-order bride in backwater, can't-keep-up, half-educated America, such as Brett "Birther" Bellmore**.
* other than the few belligerent clingers one finds in nearly every American community, including our best communities.
** Mr. Bellmore's birtherism might have been overtaken by a more recent conspiracy theory, so Brett "QAnon" Bellmore or Brett "MAGA" Bellmore might be better these days.
I mean, it does, actually.
If you're looking to groom children into your preferred behaviors is definitely an interest, just not one anyone in public service should be allowed to pursue.
Your argument might have merit of this was 1950 and the levels of homosexuality and transgenderism were at near organic levels.
But its 2023 and the youngest generation identifies as LGBTQP at an astonishing 40% rate.
The parents have a right to protect their children's wellbeing against whatever is causing this epidemic.
¨But its 2023 and the youngest generation identifies as LGBTQP at an astonishing 40% rate.¨
What data support this assertion? Or are you once again joking?
Shit, is that what BCD said? Huh.
The actual number is about 20%, [Gallup] with most of the growth from bisexuals.
https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-40-percent-us-gen-zs-30-percent-christians-identify-lgbtq-poll-shows-1641085
"The actual number is about 20%,"
Sounds like you're confusing LGBT and LGBTQ.
How do you figure? Scroll down to the "Americans' Self-Identified Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity, by Generation and Gender" table and you can add up Gen Z's numbers yourself. Unless one of us is really bad at math, you should get 22.8% don't identify as cisgender-heterosexual.
... or are you quibbling over me saying "about 20%" rather then "about 22.8%"?
Can you not see the link I provided?
His earlier comment implied he has you muted, which makes him look (even more) like someone with a very weak argument.
https://www.newsweek.com/nearly-40-percent-us-gen-zs-30-percent-christians-identify-lgbtq-poll-shows-1641085
From the article which you link:
No information about George Barna or his polling organization, but the article does note:
How likely is it that the ¨Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University and Foundations of Freedom¨ would sponsor a rigorous inquiry? The man who pays the fiddler calls the tune.
And contrary to your slur, there is not a damn word in the article about ¨LGBTQP¨.
How likely is it that the ¨Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University and Foundations of Freedom¨ would sponsor a rigorous inquiry? The man who pays the fiddler calls the tune.
That’s not an argument; that’s an anti-intellectual dodge. Further it doesn't even undermine my argument. We went from 2% to 20% to even greater. That's not natural, nor is that "born that way".
And contrary to your slur, there is not a damn word in the article about ¨LGBTQP¨.
Putting aside your hurt feelings, I’m comforted knowing that as soon as “P” gets anywhere near an “L”, “G” (especially the “G”), “B”, “T” (and this one too!), or “Q” that everyone, and I mean EVERYONE knows exactly what that means.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but your bigotry does not hurt my feelings. It does make me pity you, as well as to feel contempt for your casting unfounded, despicable aspersions upon those whom you hate.
Empiricism is not bigotry.
You could always read it and check. That's what I did with the studies people use the claim that false rape allegations have been shown to be rare, and surprise, surprise, it turns out that that's just another bit of misinformation that the left loves to glom onto because it supports the narrative.
The students were in first grade. At that age you don't have a sexual orientation to out! But that's the point in grooming them early: They're easier to confuse if you get at them before puberty has made their orientation clear to them.
Anyway, you could maybe justify keeping parents in the dark after a court hearing before an impartial judge. But to let the school do it on their own say-so? That makes the school's rights in regard to the children superior.
Go for it; I always have wanted the public schools abolished, after all. And that would give us a real shot at it.
Children are susceptible to suggestion, so suggestible in fact that methods of interrogating children suspected of being abused have had to be completely rewritten. The McMartin Preschool case and the Wenatchee case had children “reporting” absolutely insane things – like animal sacrifices on a Satanic altar in the basement of a school that had NO BASEMENT! If leading questions to children can get them to say things like that, then what do you expect from children constantly told that they may be something other that what they are.
These “teachers” who discover that a child is “trans” are violating every rule of interrogating children. If the reports are correct about what these teachers are saying to their students, they belong in jail for child abuse.
If there is, in fact, such a thing as a transgender 5 year old it is up to the parents to find a professional expert in child abuse investigation, not an expert in “trans”.
Old Engineer 17 hours ago (edited)"
"If there is, in fact, such a thing as a transgender 5 year old it is up to the parents to find a professional expert in child abuse investigation, not an expert in “trans”."
Engineer - that is excellent point which should be obvious to everyone.
"a policy of not outing people as gay or transgender is hard to understand?"
Yes. Especially kids experiencing gender dysphoria who might be in need of therapy. Parents need to know things like that.
Kids who are being groomed to believe that they are experiencing gender dysphoria.
As OE mentions above, children are extremely susceptible to suggestion. That's why it's so important to the perverts to get their agenda in the classroom as early as possible.
"… a policy of not outing people as gay or transgender is hard to understand?"
To their PARENTS? Schools have literally zero right whatsoever to do that. The children --- they are not the school's children.
"Give me a world where gay and trans folk are accepted"
Nobody has a right to acceptance.
They have a right to TOLERANCE.
Not the same thing.
"As I noted before, I'm skeptical about claims of parents' constitutional right to opt out from parts of public school curricula, and even from teacher speech that isn't a formal part of the curriculum."
Should you triumph on this, we might finally find abolishing the public schools in favor of a voucher system politically feasible.
It’s shocking to me that there are people in this country who think a parent doesn’t have the right to pull their children out for whatever reason they want.
It's a recognized human right for a parent to decide the education of their children. Its even part of the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
¨It’s shocking to me that there are people in this country who think a parent doesn’t have the right to pull their children out for whatever reason they want.¨
Uh, parents do have that right. Were that not so, private schools and home schooling would be greatly diminished.
Of any particular class was what I was referring to. Pulling children out of public school is only controversial to a handful Leftist elites. But I'm sure that won't stay so constrained.
I also tend towards the ‘schools run the show’ view on this issue. What the teacher is doing is terrible, but I don’t really see why these parents - who are right - should be entitled to a veto while, say, young earth creationist parents - who are wrong - shouldn’t. Ultimately if you don’t like what the school’s doing you either agitate with the school enough to change things or you pull your kid out.
Who's entitled to a veto isn't a function of who is right, or else you're just transferring the actual decision to whoever gets to decide which of them is right.
Correct.
If the school allows opting out of material that is in the curriculum, logical consistency says it should allow opting out of explicitly ideological brainwashing and deceit that is outside of the curriculum.
Okay, I am very sympathetic to trans issues in general, but that teacher is nuts. Congratulations to this blog for finding and reporting the most outrageous case concerning transgender issues in education. Fair and balanced.
If you're confident this is the most outrageous case out there, you probably haven't been paying attention.
Rantz: Elementary sex ed promoted puberty blockers, pubic hair art
" Congratulations to this blog for finding and reporting the most outrageous case concerning transgender issues in education."
If you follow libs of tik tok, you'd know that this isn't remotely unusual.
The dogma lived loudly in Judge Conti long before her Catholic connections put an average lawyer on the federal bench.
It sounds like she is getting worse. I have little doubt Judge Conti would support -- in more ways than one -- parents who sought to remove children from a biology class based on reason, science, and the reality-based world to flatter parental beliefs rooted in superstition, nonsense, dogma, and disdain for science.
“ I think all those decisions should generally be left to the political process”
And how does that work, if the teacher insists on teaching things that aren’t in the ( presumably politically processed and approved) curriculum ?
Well you refer it to the union and people like Eugene shrug and the marxist agenda carries on.
Terry and the Rev make the same silly statement in the dark of no facts.
Congress sends its children to private schools.
Public school teachers send to private schools at twice the rate of the public. But no one is helping you to have a choice in schooling.
The Rev hates Catholics but pretends it's just Conti he hates.
And you talk of politically approved curriculum but those politicians
are removing their own children from the force of those laws.
Here is the image that stays with me. See if you get the application
"ACLU Director Resigns Over Transgender Bathroom Policy
An ACLU executive in Georgia resigned after claiming her children were upset by the presence of transgender women in a bathroom, concurrently announcing the launch of a new "civil rights" group."
Rev has probably never had to deal with trans boys in his daughter's bathroom, or Sam Brinton at a child's school, or drag queens at the library. He doesn't know and he doesn't care.
I don't like sacred ignorance or dogmatic intolerance. I prefer reason to childish superstition.
I don't like organizations that engage in the systematic, longstanding concealment and facilitation of the sexual abuse of children, especially when they do so to preserve their criminal employees, their ample assets, and their reputation. Hypocrisy makes it worse, too.
I don't like judges who forget that competent adults neither accept nor advance supernatural (superstition- or nonsense-based) arguments in reasoned debate among adults, particularly with respect to public affairs.
I don't like institutions that freeload and expect to benefit from a 'heads we win, tails you lose' standard -- 'we can discriminate against everyone else, but no one can discriminate against us.'
If it weren't for adult-onset superstition, the Catholic Church would have been dismantled in America long ago.
Virginia Code § 1-240.1. Rights of parents.
"A parent has a fundamental right to make decisions concerning the upbringing, education, and care of the parent's child."
This act codifies the opinion of the Supreme Court of Virginia in L.F. v. Breit, issued on January 10, 2013, as it relates to parental rights.
If your state does not have such a provision, you need to get it added, stat. Otherwise, you get these kinds of ridiculous claims that parents have no rights whatsoever when it comes to what their children are taught in school.
NO, that is a trick of the Revs of the world. As one of the founders said, Shall we enshrine the right to decide what to eat for breakfast?
The whole point of rights is that you only cede to others what you decide to cede and the rest, all the rest, is yours.
Incidental, but necessary, to this is unenumerated rights. The constitution says nothing explicitly about parents having a constitutional right in how to raise their children. Now as someone who believes that unenumerated rights absolutely exist as contemplated by the Ninth Amendment I do think such a right exists. But, this is defintely not the belief of the vast majority of conservatives who don't think unenumerated rights exist and yet here we are. Eventually some case along these lines will get to SCOTUS and it will be interesting to see how the right leaning Justices rule, because based on their normal jurisprudence I don't see how they can justify such right existing.
These clingers are on a Mission From God.
A paltry, illusory, bigoted, obsolete god.
“But, this is defintely not the belief of the vast majority of conservatives who don’t think unenumerated rights exist and yet here we are. ”
The vast majority of conservatives don’t believe the courts are entitled to invent NEW rights. That’s quite different from believing that the courts shouldn't enforce traditional unenumerated rights.
Brett, this is doubletalk.
Aren't you talking about the right to decide what is a right and what kind of right that right is. That's pure 1984 doublespeak
The left is all about leveraging ministerial roles to create policy. Leveraging the power to enforce existing unenumerated rights to invent new 'rights' out of whole cloth is just an example of that.
If you want to honestly apply the 9th amendment, you need to do the historical analysis to determine if something was actually viewed as a right back when it was ratified, NOT the modern day analysis to see if you think it would be a good idea if it was a right.
Parental rights over children easily clear this bar, at the time children were barely more than chattels.
And what part of the constitution would you ground that in? Because the vast majority are like Scalia who says the Ninth doesn't allow courts to enforce unenumerated rights
You are hoping nobody knows the Founders or American History.
"It is the duty of parents to maintain their children decently, and according to their circumstances; to protect them according to the dictates of prudence; and to educate them according to the suggestions of a judicious and zealous regard for their usefulness, their respectability and happiness."
James Wilson, Lectures on Law, 1791
"A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district--all studied and appreciated as they merit--are the principal support of virtue, morality, and civil liberty."
Benjamin Franklin
You can be a hate-filled backwoods Deliverance bigot like Rev but it was a publicly-shared truth of such unanimity that no one had to codify it. Parents have the right over their children's education, period. Do you think Rev or MSE would let you dictate to their kids.
Dream on.
Nope, read what I said. I agree the right exists for just this reason. But no enumerated right does it and the conservative position has been the courts can't enforce unenumerated rights
THe demographic cliff comes in 2026 but til then , notice
figures showed that 41% of representatives in the House and 46% of U.S. senators send or have sent at least one of their children to a private institution.
BUT YOU SAY, WHAT ABOUT PLAIN OLD PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS (this is where the Rev deserts all reason)
“Nationwide, public school teachers are almost twice as likely as other parents to choose private schools for their own children
Sorry, Rev, there's one of those facts you pretend to like but seem not to know
Has anybody noticed anything here?
For years School Administrations and Teacher's Unions have thrown out the "parents don't want to be involved in their child's education" card. Now when parents are getting involved, the Administrations and Unions say that they have no RIGHT to be involved. More Liberal Socialist BS.
Why do you engage in random capitalization, jimc5499 . . . other than your knuckle-dragging illiteracy, I mean.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit, and not a step beyond.