The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Why the Debt Limit Is (Still, Really) Constitutional
Biden still wants to explore the 14th Amendment—but it isn't a presidential authority, and the debt limit doesn't create a constitutional "trilemma."
There is now a deal over the debt limit, but President nevertheless insists that he's still looking at using the 14th Amendment in the future—apparently to decide "whether or not you need to do the debt limit every year." Motivated in part by some friendly disagreement with Michael Dorf, the President's comments seem like a good occasion for me to revisit the absence of a 14th Amendment authority to exceed the limit and respond to a few of Dorf's points.
A brief recap. There are two leading theories by which the President might declare the debt limit unconstitutional. The first leans on the Public Debt Clause of the 14th Amendment, which provides in relevant (if vague) part that "[t]he validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned." Applying this Clause as an authority gets most the most press, and it's the one that Biden himself seems to find plausible.
The second view—which I find more intriguing and which the President hasn't addressed—is Neil Buchanan and Michael Dorf's theory that the debt limit can create a kind of trilemma: If the President doesn't have enough money to satisfy spending statutes, he must (so the theory goes) either arrogate Congress's spending power or arrogate one on revenue-side authorities—taxing or borrowing.
My view is that neither theory works. The Public Debt Clause theory doesn't work because the text of the clause gives no hint of a presidential authority—"Congress shall have power to enforce" it, not the president. Using Congress's section 5 enforcement power to take Congress's Article 1 borrowing power would be an ambitious double heist. Second, as my paper recounts at length, legislative limits on executive borrowing were common in the 19th century and never thought to create any conflict with the Clause until very recently. (It is only in the past couple of decades—as partisan polarization has become especially bitter—that anyone looked to the 14th Amendment as a constitutional escape hatch.) Third, the facts. As a practical matter, it is not at all likely that reaching the point where total obligations exceed total revenue means we "default" on the public debt. It has been clear for decades that the United States can roll over the debt and continue paying interest even as it prioritizes other spending.
But Professor Dorf offers a fair rejoinder: The argument I've sketched above works "only if one takes a very narrow view of what constitutes 'debt.'" The idea here is that the "public debt" might be read broadly, to include all manner of payments that the United States is indebted to make.
This is not the best way to read the Clause. The text of the Clause itself defines "public debt" as "including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties." If the term "public debt" already included (for example) the pensions, then the "debts incurred for" language would make no sense. The background drafting and ratification history concerns a limited set of debt securities, and the later text of the section (the so-called "Rebel Debt Clause") distinguishes between "debts, obligations and claims"—further evidence that "debt" must have a limited scope. And then we have overwhelming legislative practice since the 19th Century. "Public debt" isn't a term that appears only in the 14th Amendment. The term has appeared in public laws for centuries, and I know of no instance where it has the broad sweep Dorf would give it.
What about the trilemma argument? My basic view, described in more detail in the paper, is this: The idea that spending less than appropriations violates the Spending Clause—especially in situations in which another statute requires that spending—is simply impossible to square with the past 230 years of appropriations law and practice between the branches. A better account of that history is that the Article II Executive Power gives reasonable discretion to prioritize under conditions of limited resources but does not give the President the far more dangerous power to extract additional tax revenue from the people if spending asks (which of course additional borrowing also entails). There is ample precedent for presidential spending discretion going back to George Washington (recounted in considerable detail in Louis Fisher's classic study); I know of no precedent for presidential revenue discretion.
While the Nixon Impoundment controversies and the Impoundment Control Act of 1974 (ICA) clarified some aspects of the constitutional balance, the episode did not deprive the Executive Branch of some commonsense authority to prioritize spending when necessity dictates. This is why the Comptroller General's guide on appropriations law (the delightful "Red Book") has sections on what agencies should do when they run out of funds and must prioritize, or when external factors intervene and make spending impossible. The Comptroller General's advice is not that agency employees should shamefacedly turn themselves in for violating the Spending Clause. And this isn't some self-indulgent executive theory of executive power—this is Congress's own advice we're talking about.
There is plenty of evidence that everyone understood this body of law to apply to the modern debt limit. In 1969, then-Assistant Attorney General Rehnquist—no friend of the Nixon impoundments—concluded that the President possesses no "broad power" to withhold appropriated funds, but conceded that this might not be true in the special case "where to comply with a direction to spend might result in exceeding the debt limit." In 1973, commenting on impoundments in the run-up to the ICA, the Comptroller General's office concluded that presidential withholding of spending was generally not "required by law"—"except in the remote event that an expenditure or obligation would actually exceed the debt limit." I could list more examples, all equally tedious in making the same point: There is a longstanding and shared understanding between the branches that spending prioritization can happen, and that the debt limit is one of those cases.
(Train v. New York and Clinton v. New York, which Dorf cites, have nothing to do with this kind of necessary spending triage. A more appropriate case might be something like Los Angeles v. Adams: "If Congress does not appropriate enough money to meet the needs of a class of beneficiaries prescribed by Congress, and if Congress is silent on how to handle this predicament, the law sensibly allows the administering agency to establish reasonable priorities and classifications.")
I'll conclude by offering a couple of thoughts that are more speculative and general. First, I suspect the account of executive discretion that I've sketched above generalizes: Innumerable statutes say that the Executive Branch "shall" do this or that. But if the "shall" simply isn't feasible—prosecuting every single violation of our immigration laws, for example—we have a body of law that governs how the executive branch exercises discretion with the available resources, not a body of law that gives the executive branch permission to impose extra taxes and prosecute more crimes. Second, I suspect that this framework fits everyday constitutional intuitions about how the executive branch should be restrained. A President that can fiddle at the margins with the dollars Congress has provided is far less dangerous than a President that can take the whole purse. So too with the debt limit.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
the far more dangerous power to extract additional tax revenue from the people if spending asks (which of course additional borrowing also entails)
I assume this bit between brackets must sound right to a lawyer, but as an economist it's not something that I would endorse as a general proposition. The relationship between deficit spending today and future taxes is much more complicated than assumed here. Most obviously, it depends on whether the economy is in recession or not.
Actually, it doesn't sound right to me, either. I think there are some words missing there.
I agree. Realistically, what additional borrowing today entails is even more additional borrowing later on.
It might or it might not. Sometimes a fiscal impulse (i.e. deficit spending) is exactly what the doctor ordered.
Well, yeah, medical euthanasia is getting kind of popular in our Northern neighbor.
Martinned - That is the theory, or at least the argument in favor of deficit/stimulus spending. However, history has shown that multiplier effect is typically much smaller than promoted. As a side note, paul krugman will be for or against the deficit and / or stimulus spending based solely on who is in the white house.
I love the premise behind the concept of a "government multiplier".
If you or I choose to spend $1, we'll have such mere mortals that the economic impact of that $1 is really $0.70.
Now, if the people in government take $1 from me and they decide to give it to you that they are such economic geniuses that the $1 will impact our economy as if it were really $2.60!
Of course the people who believe this don't live in reality where you can observe the waste, fraud, abuse and inefficiencies of government but live in some Sacastr0 like fantastic world were the Administrative State is filled with omnipotent and benevolent bureaucrats with their demi-god status.
As long as the multiplier is larger than 1, it doesn't really matter whether it's "smaller than promoted".
Yeah, and why assume the multiplier is larger than 1?
I don't. That will vary from case to case. Sometimes and/or in some situations the multiplier will be (much) smaller than 1, sometimes and/or in some situations it will be above 1. Hence my original comment.
My view is that in the private sector, everybody is always aiming for a multiplier above 1, AKA "making a profit". At least theoretically, anyway; Realistically, a lot of modern management barely even pretend to care about their fiduciary responsibilities to stock holders. But in theory, anyway, that's the goal.
I don't think getting that multiplier above 1 is even a consideration most of the time in politics; The government mostly functions as an inefficient money laundering scheme. That multiplier is only going over 1 by accident, or if getting it above 1 is necessary for the money laundering process.
Brett, read up on the fiscal multiplier. You seem to utterly misapprehend what it is.
The multiplier is definitionally not a thing in the private sector. It's also not an ROI of a given spending choice.
Would the doctor order it for every year forever?
Yes, I have to agree, an economy that's growing at 7% can handle a lot more deficit spending than an economy that's shrinking 2%.
That should be an obvious proposition because the truest measure of debt is percentage of GDP. And an economy growing at 7% can swallow a lot of deficit spending without choking.
I haven't been following all the debt ceiling threads, but has anyone noted the irony of the 14th Amdt argument? Namely, that in order to avoid questioning "the validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law...", the Executive Branch would be issuing new debt not explicitly authorized by law, and thus of questionable validity?
There who insist that the government run the way a "family budget on the kitchen table" works.
They also say that if you borrow money you have to pay it back. No student loan forgiveness but let's just cancel out this PPP loan I got.
Same people: Government can run up a bill but not pay for it so a few Republicans can get what they don't have the votes for.
Constitutional? Shaky. Anti Democratic? Definitely. The Democrats should have gotten rid of the debt ceiling when they had the chance.
"PPP loan"
Grant structured as a "loan". This money was simply never intended to be paid back if you met very easy conditions.
And there is a difference, a massive one, between borrowing money to go to college and a business being forced to shut down BY governments and being offered money by governments to not just fire all of their employees.
Could you articulate the difference? They both seem like subsidies of desired action to me.
Well, for one thing, people are given a choice about whether to attend college. Affected businesses weren't typically given a choice about whether to shut down.
How does that have any policy upshot? Looks a lot like 'I like this policy not this one so they are different.'
I also challenge your facts. Which shutdown do you mean? And how long was said shutdown? We did not shut down businesses very long at all in most places.
It's the difference between subsidizing a desired action, and compensating somebody for a coerced action.
And it was long enough that a lot of small businesses went defunct.
The loan forgiveness isn't even a subsidy for a desired action. The people eligible have already taken the action. The people who didn't borrow money can't go back in time and borrow money now that they know it will be forgiven.
Read damikesc‘s original comment. It’s not about loan forgiveness.
Damikesc‘s original comment is on a thread about loan forgiveness.
Your comment, "They both seem like subsidies of desired action to me." makes no sense outside of the context of loan forgiveness. "Borrowing money to go to college" isn't a subsidy.
I was reading charitably.
Threads fork. The thread here starts with a comment which was in no way ambiguous in NOT talking about loan forgiveness.
Your comment, “They both seem like subsidies of desired action to me.” makes no sense outside of the context of loan forgiveness. “Borrowing money to go to college” isn’t a subsidy.
Federal student loans are absolutely subsidized.
Federal student loans can be subsidized or unsubsidized.
But if we're not talking about loan forgiveness, then a big difference between PPP loans and student loans is that you don't have to pay the PPP loan back if you meet the conditions, but you normally have to pay student loans back. I'm surprised that you didn't know that.
Given your argument, any subsidy means you're swinging at the wrong thesis.
Moreover, check out unsubsidized federal loan rates versus private loan rates sometime.
Even more-over, Due to government backing, the very offering of federal loans is a subsidy - government loans are a financial assistance instrument, just like a grant.
How is ex-post facto loan forgiveness a "subsidy of desired action?"
If the government chooses to issue loans with terms and conditions where you can discharge the loan by doing certain things that the government wants you to do, sure, that's a subsidy, you're basically being paid to do something.
OTOH, if you borrow money and the government waives the obligation to pay it back, that's a naked wealth transfer from people who don't own money to people who do. No desired action is subsidized. It may or may not be good policy, but the two scenarios aren't analogous.
You need to read the threading better. You just took out a strawman.
Sigh. So you were unclear on the difference between college loans and forgivable PPP loans?
“And there is a difference, a massive one, between borrowing money to go to college and a business being forced to shut down BY governments”
This is what I replied to. This is explicitly not about loan forgiveness.
Quite clear, but you were not more into contrarianism than engagement and so didn’t read the context.
I do it too - we are human. But I try not to double down like this.
No student loan forgiveness but let’s just cancel out this PPP loan I got.
The stupidity of that comparison is self-evident...and yet you seem to have completely missed it.
The PPP loans were designed to be forgiven if the debtor fulfilled a specific obligation. Student loans are not. The instruments are not comparable.
They are borrowing $4T to pay old existing debt?
No. They want to borrow $4T to cover new spending, not pay off old obligations.
yeah I told my credit card the same thing - give me unlimited spending. I'm good for it. Democrats only care about spending to get votes.
Still trying to decode the rest but student loans were a choice. You could have chosen a 2 year school to get core than class. I have a Masters degree. I paid my debt back.
I think the loans should be given by the schools not government. You'll see tuition be scaled back.
I'm not sure that's true; this is mostly paying off Trump debt for money that has already been spent. (I can't possibly be the only person who's noticed that deficits tend to go down when a Democrat is in the White House, and Republicans only care about debt when a Democrat is in the White House.)
Be all of that as it may, the White House has already stated multiple times that it does not consider the 14th Amendment to be a viable option, so I'm really not sure why conservatives are continuing to talk about it.
They are borrowing $4T to pay Trump debt? How do you know which of the $32T debt was Trump and not Pelosi/Schumer debt?
Democrats and Republicans are both big spenders. The difference is that Democrats want to raise the revenue to pay for it by raising taxes on the rich, whereas the GOP wants to keep throwing it on a credit card. So in terms of spending, you're right that both parties are to blame. But in terms of how the spending is to be paid for, the Democrats are the grown-ups in the room. They get that the credit cards will max out eventually, and that someone has to pay for it.
Which is why it's a fair statement that the 4T is mostly Trump. Yeah, the Democrats would have spent it too, but they would have found ways to pay for it. Deficits typically go down when Democrats are in the White House.
Actually Democrats want to rise taxes which lowers GDP. It also never brings in what they predict. GOP wants to low taxes so business can hire and increase value.
You know if you think delicts go down and want to pay more tax, the IRS lets you send more money in.
Trump was just paying what Obama's 8 T. Hey, which party gave 3 trillion and caused inflation? I'll wait.
The 4T that the government wants to spend in excess of their revenues for the next two years are Trump's fault?
lol are you kidding me?
To be consistent, with that approach all debt is Congressional, not Presidential. The President cannot originate spending (the point of the OP btw), only sign or veto what Congress provides.
And even if it's vetoed, Congress can override and direct the spending anyway. That's what happened when in July 2020, Trump threatened to veto that year's National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for 2021 if it authorized the The Commission on the Naming of Items of the Department of Defense that Commemorate the Confederate States of America or Any Person Who Served Voluntarily with the Confederate States of America (Let's just say Commission, shall we?).
The House and Senate overwhelmingly voted to include that specific authorization, so Trump vetoed the NDAA on Dec 23, 202O. And five days later, both House and Senate overwhelmingly overrode that veto. (The Commission's recommendations retained strong bipartisan support in the current Congress and are in the process of being implemented today.)
So, feel free to call 2017-2018 Ryan/McConnel debt, 2019-2020 & 2021-2022 Pelosi/Schumer debt, and 2023-2024 McCarthy(maybe)/Schumer debt. But only if you never refer to [any president] debt again.
"...the White House has already stated multiple times that it does not consider the 14th Amendment to be a viable option, so I’m really not sure why conservatives are continuing to talk about it."
The only reason you could claim that "conservatives" are responsible for continuing to pounce in this fashion is if you didn't follow the first link in the article.
But I suspect that the real reason for your pretended ignorance is that you are a partisan dishonest shit.
You may have a point but if you wear a hat it won’t be as noticeable.
and the Repubiclowns insisting on "Work Requirements" for Food Stamps!!!!! It's literally Nazi-Germany!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope you realize that this will inherently lead to a major increase in the minimum wage because food stamps, housing assistance, etc. are reduced on the basis of GROSS earnings, while they are only getting the net. Hence it costs money to work — you would need a minimum wage (which is what they will be paid) in the $30/hour range for them to break even.
Now as to a work requirement for Medicaid, that’s asinine because the healthy will just forego health care and the sick can’t work anyway — and they’ll just go to the emergency room and make it even a bigger mess than it already is. We aren’t gaining anything on that.
And do you want someone with poor hygiene handling your food? A lot of these people aren't employable...
During the mid 1980's through early 1990's, several analysis showed the effective marginal tax rates were in the range of 70% to 110% for low income workers when the phase outs of earned income credit, food stamps, housing vouchers were factored in.
Which could, of course, be fixed but neither side wants to.
One side wants cheap labor to exploit and the other wants a dependent class to exploit.
That's actually pretty darned difficult to fix, without either subsidizing people who don't remotely need it, or just ditching the subsidies.
At the poor end of things, the subsidies have to be a large fraction of income, or they're not worth bothering with.
At the upper end (Really, by middle income!) they have to go away, or you're subsidizing people who don't need it.
In between you need to avoid creating a wall of sorts, where in a certain income range increasing your income actually makes you poorer. So they have to go away gradually.
Once you satisfy those requirements? Yeah, you're going to have a high effective tax rate over a significant range of incomes. Mathematically unavoidable.
I am not, in theory, opposed to the idea that people who are able to work should. The practical reality, however, is that there are large numbers of people who are effectively unemployable because they are stupid, have toxic personalities, lack any real skills, and otherwise are of no real use to an employer. So how many people this would actually move into the workforce is probably not as large a number as conservatives assume.
What you would see is them pushed into public service jobs which means that they would become petty tyrants that all of us would increasingly have to endure. A lot of people think that these people working would be good without realizing that they would be having to interact with them and thus enduring a declined quality of life.
I recall an SF novel where there was public support for anybody who wanted it, the catch being that it was extremely unpleasant. Not painful, just unpleasant. You could eat in a cafeteria where at the food was bad tasting and unattractive, sleep in a dormitory with burlap sheets and the temperatures uncomfortably hot or cold as the weather dictated, and so forth.
The idea being they'd keep you alive, but if you wanted to actually enjoy being alive, you could damned well work for it.
That didn't strike you as at all dystopian?
That was my policy idea when I was about 23 years old. Since then I've realized it's dehumanizing, and treats dignity like a commodity to be earned.
Yes, that makes things harder. Moral policymaking is not a simple thing.
No, it didn't strike me as even a tiny bit dystopian.
"and treats dignity like a commodity to be earned."
Dignity IS something you need to earn. Where did you get this weird notion that you can mooch off somebody AND demand that they respect you, too?
Dignity IS something you need to earn
Respect is not the same as dignity. Dignity is inherent.
But also: Policymaking that includes losing respect for citizens is quite the lean-forward of government authority.
I continue to be mystified you call yourself a libertarian.
Dignity IS something you need to earn.
I know that many commenters here seem to think Germany is still the Third Reich, but this:
"many commenters here seem to think Germany is still the Third Reich"
No, just that it forfeited its moral authority forever.
"A thousand years will pass and still this guilt of Germany will not have been erased. "
Bob, I thought moral authority was for suckers?
Glass houses and all that.
Bob, that's really funny coming from someone who thinks the current generation of Americans has no responsibility for slaveholding and Jim Crow that happened far less than a thousand years ago.
Interesting analogy. The current world-wide Jewish population is still significantly lower than it would have been but for the actions of Germany.
What kind of affirmative action should be required of Germany to rectify that?
The source doesn't matter but the definition is wrong. Attempting to enact a wrong definition by act of legislature does not make it less silly or wrong.
Dignity: The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect.
Various dictionaries have minorly-varying definitions but none of them say that "dignity" is a right, binding or otherwise. Dignity is something that you have to be personally worthy of.
Seems like a lot hinges on your definition of dignity.
According to the comment above:
"Dignity: The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect."
Does that mean that in Europe the government has to force people to respect and esteem those that people don't wish to respect? Sounds pretty tyrannical to me.
Does that mean that in Europe the government has to force people to respect and esteem those that people don’t wish to respect?
No, it means that the government has to protect human dignity when it acts (or fails to act). As with other human rights, horizontal effect is very limited.
Well, how do you define dignity then? Seems like a flexible concept that you can use to deny one person's fundamental rights by claiming that the exercise of those rights violates someone else's dignity.
@TweliveInchPianist: Again, the government might violate someone's dignity when it acts or not. When people exercise their right to free speech, etc., there is no inherent horizontal effect of the requirement for the government to protect people's dignity.
(Though, as always, constitutions vary, and horizontal effect is a tricky concept where different jurisdictions come out differently.)
"Since then I’ve realized it’s dehumanizing, and treats dignity like a commodity to be earned."
Well, no, it treats material goods that are necessary to survival as commodities to be earned. Which they should be, since it requires labor to create them.
it treats material goods that are necessary to survival as commodities to be earned
Wrong.
"there was public support for anybody who wanted it, the catch being that it was extremely unpleasant."
You're seeing a distinction between public support and material goods?
Public support means not individually earned.
You're the one claiming that a certain level of public support is necessary for dignity. If you want to claim that, that's fine, but someone has to "earn" or create the goods that you're claiming are necessary for dignity.
I’m claiming Brett’s formulation is immoral.
You are making a lot of connections that boil down to fuck the poor if they merited dignity they would be rich.
Secular Prosperity Gospel aristocracy. Loathsome way to see your fellow humans.
I’m claiming Brett’s formulation is immoral.
Yeah, but you’re not supporting that claim.
And you’re failing to recognize the trade-off between giving people what you call “dignity”, by which you mean the right to force others to produce goods that they would like to consume, and the right of others not to produce those goods. IMO that’s a shitty way for you to view your fellow human beings.
And as far as I can tell, your definition of giving people "dignity" just boils down to "giving people what I think they should have.
It says, "'Inherent dignity' gets you food and a roof over your head. You want good food and a nice roof, you can damned well work for it."
That's not dignity, that's survival. Those two things should not be mixed up.
Dignity is whatever you say it is?
It's not dignity sponging off other people.
Sure, if that's the way you feel about poor people, fine.
But that's not got much to do with their dignity, it's you being an asshole to people whose specifics you don't really know.
You're the one claiming that dignity entitles people to enjoy life consuming goods made by the labor of others.
Naw, dude, that's not dignity, that's the fundamental moral requirement of society to care for it's down an out.
As I already noted to you once, Brett's scenario assumes that: "there was public support for anybody who wanted it"
I'm not sure why you have trouble with this framing Brett set up.
Sounds like you're the one having trouble with Brett's framing.
Why are you claiming that people have a fundamental right to desirable goods based off the labor of others?
Nice try adding desirable in there.
I think that entitlements should not be purposefully made shitty and low quality. That's dehumanizing.
But you seem to have some divine right of wealth thing going on, so you may have a different idea of whether the poor count as humans.
Maybe you're using "dehumanizing" to mean "I don't like it."
But if you're going to make some people work to produce goods for those who won't work, why shouldn't we do it in a way that disincentives free riding?
I guess there were no recessions or layoffs in that universe, no disabled people, etc.
No, in the novel WHY you weren't working was utterly irrelevant. The agency responsible for the support wouldn't let people die of starvation or exposure, (Unless that's what they wanted!) and didn't really care why you were mooching off the public. But actually enjoying life was reserved for people who supported themselves, or were voluntarily supported by somebody else.
As Sarcastro says, pretty dystopian.
I can see how it might appeal to a high school student who thought he was really smart.
The National Merit scholarship and straight A's said I was a high school student who was right about being really smart. 😉
Seriously, a welfare system where nobody starves, but you have to work if you don't want the lowest grade of food, is "dystopian"? Apparently you consider incentives "dystopian".
“The idea being they’d keep you alive, but if you wanted to actually enjoy being alive, you could damned well work for it.”
There are a number of such dystopias, and at least one counterpoint utopia (Gene Rodenberry’s original Star Trek). But you may be thinking of Philip José Farmer’s novella, Riders of the Purple Wage.
Plot concerned individually-created unique art as one of the few things with a value-add, because it took a person’s effort and almost nothing else did (it does not imply that’s a good thing).
I don’t remember many of the details beyond UBI (;Purple Wage, get it?), public kibble dispensers (tasteless but free and nourishing food), and the big reveal/pun at the end.
Frustratingly, I can't recall the title, it was, I think, British SF, the title was something like "The Karmic Computers".
Premise was that somebody had invented a device, based off Kirlian photography, that essentially tasered anybody who attempted to act on aggressive impulses within its range. I guess it started out as a security device in malls, or something of the sort. But it soon found other uses...
It's spread eliminated crime, war, and then government, creating an anarchic world. The welfare system was voluntarily maintained, since you couldn't attempt to tax anyone to maintain it, and darned few people were up for subsiding a pleasant life for layabouts.
Sure Bellmore. Did you know that Locke recommended forced lifetime indentures for the British poor? That impulse goes way back, and it has always been privileged, hateful, and self-congratulatory. Also, at least among professed Christians, paradoxical.
Do you even understand the difference between forced lifetime indenture and, "Your free food won't taste good, if you want better find a damned job."
Reading this as made me dumber. You just work out a whole section of the population. Why don't you give examples?
I look at this rather simplistically -- " "[t]he validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law,..."[emphasis added]
If there is a law which instead does NOT authorize it, either explicitly or by implication, then the debt is not authorized by law and hence the 14th Amendment does not apply.
As to the "by implication", an analogy from truck & bus companies -- it is illegal to have a schedule that forces the driver to violate the speed limit -- this was a big issue during the 12 year national mistake known as the 55 MPH national speed limit. (Going from 70 to 55 was 60 less miles traveled after four hours, with over an additional hour needed to travel those 60 miles.)
Authorities (not sure if Fed or State) stomped on companies that were doing this.
Accordingly, I argue that if a debt limit law doesn't directly preclude the "authorized by law" it does so indirectly because it precludes those laws authorizing spending that would lead to violating this law, much as keeping the pre-1974 schedules led to violation of the 55MPH law.
Now as to the second issue, I look to the example of the states which are required to balance their budgets -- the Governor calls the legislature into session and doesn't let them go home. There are provisions to both "secure the doors" (keep them locked in the room) and to have police go find and "escort" absent members back to the assembly.
Governors rarely exercise these powers because they know that they will p*ss off *both* parties in the legislature, which will have consequences, they do have the power to do this.
Does the President have similar powers? What are the limits of his "emergency" powers if Congress will not meet -- and remain in session? And after about the third or fourth day of mandated attendance at 24/7 sessions, comprises will arise...
I have no doubt that a President who ever did something like this would be impeached -- and quite likely convicted -- by p*ssed-off members of Congress. But does he/she/it have the power to do it?
Art. 2, Sect. 3
He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper . . . .
I am ashamed that my country cannot meet its operational expenses without borrowing. Not only that, it could not even prioritize interest repayments on its existing debts, should it have to.
I am astonished that we all accept this fiscal mismanagement as business as usual. If any other business or individuals acted this way, we would condemn it as fiscal madness.
Look at every other country in the world, and most big corporations.
This is not mismanagement. In the modern era, we've realized carrying at least some debt is smart management.
Your shame seems way overturned.
“Some”
You want to get into line-drawing, I ask what the justifications you have for where you draw the line other than 'my feelings say number too big.'
OK, I’ll bite. Please list the “big corporations” that run on a break-even basis, much less on a deficit. The federal government is not just carrying "some" debt. It runs on debt.
Alphabet's total debt last quarter was 29.493 billion
I tried to link, but got into moderation for the link.
Alphabet's cash on hand for 2022 was $113.762 Billion.
Does the US have 4 times its debt in cash reserves?
And their operating cashflow last year was $25 billion. Comparing a private company using debt to leverage their returns to a government using debt to cover their basic operations is silly.
As bevis notes, that you are talking about US cash on hand shows how this is a bad analogy.
I did start it - trying to make the narrow point that a rotating debt is a thing successful institutions do all the time. But it was probably more confusing than useful.
No Sarcastro, you misinterpreted what was said.
Dave said “I am ashamed that my country cannot meet its operational expenses without borrowing.”
What you interpreted that as was “carrying at least some debt”
The two are not the same. Not even close.
To use the household analogy, a household which has a mortgage, but is regularly running a surplus, saving money and easily meets its mortgage payment and all other expenses without borrowing is fine. But just carrying debt.
By contrast, a household that has a mortgage, but can’t meet it’s mortgage payments without borrowing for a cash advance on the credit card, and who can’t meet daily expenses without putting even more money on the credit card is not doing fine. They can’t meet operational expenses without borrowing.
Dave’s example was the second versus. Operational expenses.
You misinterpreted it to be the first case.
Google cannot meet it's operational expenses year to year. Most businesses cannot.
I just said the analogy to individual finance is stupid.
For instance, who will foreclose on what? And are we even having trouble meeting our payments (that we owe to ourselves because the analogy is stupid)?
Google (aka Alphabet Corp) most definitely can (and does) "meet it's operational expenses year to year". Here is its "Net cash provided by operating activities" for the last five years, as filed with the SEC.
2022: $91,495 million
2021: $91,652 million
2020: $65,124 million
2019: $54,520 million
2018: $47,971 million
Net cash provided by operating activities is basically cash revenue from sales and fees less cash expenditures for operating expenses.
It's taking out a loan each year above and beyond it's profits for some reason. Above it was offered that it's okay because it's for capital expenses, but nations investing in their infrastructure and education are that, eh?
Also noted, if you follow above, what is cash on hand like in the national debt analogy?
They’re taking out loans to leverage returns a bit and to make capital investments.
They’ve generated more than $90B in operating cashflow in each of the last two years. That’s cash above expenses. They’ve generated $60B - $65b in free cash flow in each year. They are rolling in cash.
They’re borrowing money because they want to, not because they have to in order to cover expenses.
Take a look at their SEC filings. Have you ever looked at one?
https://abc.xyz/investor/static/pdf/2022Q4_alphabet_earnings_release.pdf?cache=9de1a6b
Scroll down to page 6.
"Google cannot meet it’s operational expenses year to year. Most businesses cannot."
No. This is just wrong. You have a very incorrect concept of what operational expenses are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_expense
Of course it's wrong. If it were right the entire economy would implode in short order.
Business can finance themselves through either debt or equity. Sometimes one is cheaper than the other. That's not really true for governments.
> I am ashamed that my country cannot meet its operational expenses without borrowing.
Of course we can. The problem is that we want european spending without European taxes.
So we use borrowing and inflation as an indirect tax on the lower and middle class.
The problem is that some of us want European spending, and others of us won't tolerate European taxes. It's not the same people demanding the high spending and the low taxes.
There's enough of an overlap, though, that you can't put together a majority for matching spending to taxes at any level.
This seems odd.
When my wife and I purchased a house, just after incurring four sets of student loans (two undergraduate, two graduate), our financial statement could have been seen as a disaster. Hundreds of thousands in debt (the house, mostly), little to no net worth, a child (more expense) on the way, relatively limited income during the immediately preceding few years.
But when one considered that I had just graduated at the top of my law school class, on my way to partnership at a large law firm, incurring that debt seemed more reasonable. When I became a partner seven years later, I was earning more than the price of the home, let alone the mortgage balance. I was earning more each month than the entirety of the student loan amounts.
Merely examining a snapshot of a financial statement seems similarly misleading in the context of the United States of America. Should I have been embarrassed when my debt was substantial and my assets (other than the law school transcript, my abilities, and my somewhat predictable prospects, which did not register on a financial statement) were minimal?
DaveM — I am astonished that we all accept this fiscal mismanagement as business as usual. If any other business or individuals acted this way, we would condemn it as fiscal madness.
But Alexander Hamilton, one of the leading fiscal thinkers of the 18th century, praised it as virtuous, and indispensable for national greatness.
And of course businesses act that way all the time, and get praised by rightwing business theorists when they make it work.
You ought to reflect on where you picked up your ideas. Maybe ask yourself the big critical thinking question, "How do I know that?"
Businesses act what way all the time?
How are you even comparing solvent businesses to the way the government is borrowing 25% of its expenses meet its obligations? It’s an absurd comparison.
Lecturing someone else while making your assertion shows remarkable chutzpah. Have you or Sarcastro ever evaluated a business or its financial statements?
Bevis, go ahead and ask the question, "How do I know that?" If the answer you get is not something pretty much everyone agrees with, then you probably don't know what you are talking about. Do you have any idea why Hamilton thought it was important for the early U.S. to create a national debt?
What the fuck does Hamilton have to do with the finance of modern companies and how that compares to government finances?
You’re not making any sense. Are you zooted?
Time to get back to regular order. No more omnibus spending bills and unspecified borrowing ability.
"President might declare the debt limit unconstitutional"
John Marshall rolls over in grave.
Oh come on. Judicial review of said declaration was implied.
Quit trying to smuggle in your hatred of Marbury v. Madison.
Why is it not the obvious answer that we would continue to make debt payments while halting additional spending as necessary to prevent additional debt?
Furlough the federal employees and use their salaries to make debt payments.
It is the obvious answer, it gets rejected by people whose first priority is maintaining as high of spending as possible.
You mean like those villains who passed the appropriations bill last year?
Yup. It's villains all around in DC, practically nobody is respectable.
"villains who passed the appropriations bill last year"
Yes
What?? Lay off the "Capitol Police"??? (The Capitol Steps would probably do a better job) who's going to keep the Hoi Polloi from putting their feet on Fancy Nancy P's desk????
Active duty armed forces are federal employees. Are they being furloughed? Air traffic controllers? Border Patrol agents?
Congress authorizes expenditures - does it demand them?
Historically, no, which is one of the OP's points: It wasn't until the 1970's that Presidents impounding funds they didn't think should be spent stopped being routine.
That seems like the only relevant question to me too. None of this is a legal - as opposed to political - issue unless the President is put in a position where he is required to choose between mutually inconsistent legal obligations.
Ultimately the practical situation will assert itself. Even if he’s “required” to spend the money, if another law exists that keeps him from acquiring the money then he can’t possibly spend it.
If you have a problem with that then the problem has to be with the congress and the president that cooperated to authorize spending that would obviously breach the debt limit.
Authorization is different than appropriation. Appropriation comes with authorizing the exec to make a financial obligation on behalf of the US governemnt.
Congress authorizes expenditures – does it demand them?
I guess it depends on how you interpret "demand". I would tend to answer "yes" when it comes to mandatory spending items, which represent something like 2/3 of the federal budget.
I’m not an authority on the history but this seems to make sense as a matter of logic and limited executive powers. It’s always possible that congress will order X to be done but then circumstances change and it turns out it’s impossible for the President to do X legally with the powers the President possesses. Under those circumstances the answer is for the President to use his legal authority to come as close as reasonably possible to X, not to seize whatever authority is necessary to make sure X happens.
It's also possible that Congress might order X be done (by legislating) but it turns out that the order is unconstitutional. So for example Congress might pass a law requiring the President to take all newspapers into federal government ownership, and might produce an appropriation to enable appropriate compensation to be paid.
And the answer in that case is that Congress's legislative orders have to be disobeyed, because Congress's orders exceeded Congress's powers under the constitution. And the appropriated funds must remain unspent.
And this is also the answer to the so-called "trilemma." If and to the extent that a piece of Congressional legislation requires the President to take all newspapers into government ownership, or to slaughter the firstborn, or to confiscate all privately owned guns, the legislation gives way to the constitution.
And if and to the extent that a piece of Congressional legislation commands the President to spend $Z trillion, when the President has only $Z minus 1 trillion available from legally enacted taxes and legally authorised debt, then $1 trillion of the spending has to give way. Congressional appropriation legislation which cannot be financed without the President usurping the taxing or borrowing power has to give way to the constitutional bar on unauthorised taxing and borrowing. The so-called "Spending power" is in reality the power to pass legislation with a price tag. As with all legislation it goes only so far as is consistent with the constitutional constraints, including the taxing and borrowing powers.
This is hardly rocket science.
Conservatives arguing that Biden should --if a debt deal falls through-- simply defund Republican priorities while keeping Democrat ones fully funded.
Interesting.
I don't think that's ideal, but it would at least be a constitutional course of action.
I'm not sure why folks think that Biden has the option of claiming that the debt ceiling is invalid and borrowing money anyway.
There's nothing wrong with him trying to do that, but the test will come when he tries to pay it back. The House can, and should, insist on a refusal to pay back any such loans without a court judgement part of the next budget, so there would be a big risk associated with assuming any debt of questionable validity.
This seems like one of those cases where Congress could pass a law to say which has priority: the debt limit or the appropriations/spending. However, since Congress has not expressly passed such a law telling the Executive how to make that decision, choosing between the two seems to be within the traditional authority of the Executive to decide how to execute the law in ambiguous situations.
The sources cited here---a single AG opinion and a Comptroller General's guide---do not seem to be the sort of persuasive evidence of Executive-Congress interaction over an extended period of time that would overturn the long-standing presumption that the Executive has discretion in executing the law in ambiguous situations. Indeed, even t
The 14th amendment already declares which has priority. Show me an amendment which states "The announced spending plans of the United States shall not be questioned."
“the president (...) shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed”
If there is a "trilemma" as the theory states. It is obvious spending must always lose, because it is the only variable that the government can actually control. It can always decide to stop sending out social security checks (indeed, the initial SCOTUS case on SS only declared it constitutional because that was so). It, however, cannot magically get more tax revenue. Raising taxes does not always bring in more money. Issuing debt does not ensure someone will buy the debt. Or will buy enough at high enough prices to fill your funding gap.
So thus, reality compels only one result: spending must yield.
The 14th Amendment makes clear that paying the debt isn’t simply optional, but required. The United States must pay.
But who can enforce the requirement to pay the debts? Not the President. Just because the Constitution imposes a duty on the Untied States doesn’t mean a specific branch of the federal government can unilaterally perform that duty.
The United States is obligated to guarantee every state a (small r) republican form of government, but the Supreme Court says the courts can’t unilaterally enforce this. It’s up to the policy-making branches.
“All debts contracted and engagements entered into, before the adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the [Articles of] Confederation” (Article VI). Does this mean the Presidents could have paid off the debt incurred under the Articles, if Congress had unconstitutionally repudiated that debt?
Also -
Congress, not the Pres, has the authority “To borrow Money on the credit of the United States” and to “pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.” It's specifically a *Congressional* responsibility.
Likewise, each house of Congress must keep a journal. If one house disregards this obligation, can the President step in and publish a Congressional journal on his own authority?
If the Senate violates Article I by allowing a 20-year-old to serve (minumum age=30), can the President send troops to stop that 20-year old from taking his or her seat?
The Public Debt Clause only affects questioning the validity of most public debts while specifying that the validity of some debts (any "debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave") shall be questioned as they are not valid (having being "held illegal and void").
Nothing in the Public Debt clause precludes defaulting on the public debt -- that would obviously be ridiculous to preclude as it could be impossible impossible to avoid in some extreme situations.
If you challenge a credit card debt that was attributed to you due to some unknown third party forging your name on the application, that is questioning the validity of the debt. The courts would then agree that the debt, as it applies to you at least, is invalid and you have no obligation to pay it even if you easily could.
If, on the other hand, you have a credit card debt that you can't pay but clearly owe (and you don't question that you do owe it), that is not questioning the validity of the debt -- it is simply defaulting and, perhaps, you will end up paying it later when you can (perhaps after receiving your annual bonus).
"Lucky timing?"
How about the tax increases that Gingrich and others swore would devastate the economy?
The United States had a great economy in the 1950s when tax rates topped out at 90% (which I'm not advocating, by the way). The idea that taxes kill the economy is another of those libertarian talking points that don't seem to work out in actual practice.
Obama inherited the Bush economic mess and had mostly fixed it by the time he left office.
Clinton wasn’t so much a peace dividend as it was extra tax income from bubble jobs that were never going to last.
"tax rates topped out at 90% "
Rates that nobody paid.
"When we look at income taxes specifically, the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid an average effective rate of only 16.9 percent in income taxes during the 1950s."
Tax Foundation "Taxes on the Rich Were Not That Much Higher in the 1950s" [August 4, 2017, Scott Greenberg]
"The United States had a great economy in the 1950s" because the US was the only first-world country with a functioning economy in the immediate aftermath of WWII. Being 'the best car in the junkyard' does not mean your tax policies are actually good.
Actually, the first huge deficit president was Ronald Reagan, who sold the country a bill of goods that we can have good government without having to pay for it. Everything that's happened since then is the natural consequence of people believing Reagan's lie that you can have good government without having to pay for it. As I said on an earlier thread, the US is essentially non-governable at this point because the voters expect lots of goodies with no one having to pay for them, which is simply untenable over the long haul.
And if you look at the deficit numbers when Obama entered office and when he left office, you'll find that he did, in fact, reduce the deficit. The raw numbers are pretty bad, but you have to look at where he started and what he had to work with.
And that would be a legitimate point if we were comparing the US economy to the rest of the world. But that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing whether high taxes kill the economy. The historical answer seems to be sometimes yes, sometimes no. It's been no often enough to be discounted as a general rule.
Mandatory adult ed might not be a bad idea.
I've encountered enough unemployable whites, and great employees who were black, over the years to be skeptical of any race-based claims. I recall a white woman showing up for a job interview wearing a t-shirt that said "Bosses are like diapers; always on your ass and full of shit." We did not make her an offer.
I think it is well established that extremely high taxes don't damage an economy if nobody is actually paying them. Though the machinations necessary to avoid paying them probably don't help the economy.
That in fact is precisely what we're discussing - the US economy was great then (whether compared to other countries at the time or compared to itself longitudinally) because of factors that overwhelmed the negative effects of a high tax rate.
The historical answer is only "sometimes yes, sometimes no" because of the precise way you framed your question - do high taxes kill the economy. The answer is always that high taxes harm the economy even if that harm does not always result in a fatality.
The answer is always that high taxes harm the economy
What does high mean?
Well, the world needs ditch diggers to.
Mandatory adult ed might not be a bad idea.
So much for the land of the free.
After mandatory health insurance why not?
High taxes most certainly do not *always* kill the economy; they don't always even harm the economy. Most of Western Europe has much higher taxes than we do, and there are times when their economies outperform ours.
Tax money goes back into the economy. It pays the wages of government workers. It pays to build government buildings. It goes to fund government programs that benefit the economy. It helps people go to college which enhances their lifetime earning potential. Conservatives talk and act as if tax money only flows in one direction and that's just not true. If your most despised government agency shut down tomorrow, the immediate impact would be that everyone who currently works there would lose their jobs.
Unlike Reagan, LBJ left office with a surplus. And for FDR, deficits were a temporary requirement for a temporary problem, not the way of life that recent administrations have made them.
Kalak, no one disputes that minorities have worse numbers than whites; the question is why.
m_k you're the one that's making a claim about race, so maybe you need more than just 'hay black people suck but I won't say black' eh?
Moynihan’s report was in *1965* my dude.
typically liberals such as him will demand respect for things that aren’t respectful or not worth regarding.
Or, maybe, you dehumanize people way more than you should.
Or maybe not; it's just name-calling without specifics.
Perhaps we're just disagreeing about what this "inherent dignity" implies. I don't think it stretches as far as quality freebies.
Sarcastro,
Don't forget that m_k is a Nazi sympathizer. No surprise he's a racist.
Heaven forbid Clinton should get any of the credit. Right, Bevis?
The tech industry did develop into a huge wealth creator…the Bush Housing Bubble is what created phony GDP growth/tax revenue.
I didn’t say he shouldn’t, bernard. Read what I said, not what you assume I’m saying because I’m the enemy or whatever.
Is it your assertion that the federal government did not benefit from extra tax income for a couple of years paid by people on bubble jobs?
LBJ left office with a surplus:
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/statement-the-president-forecasting-budget-surplus-fiscal-year-1969
In fact, two of the last three presidents to leave office with a surplus were LBJ and Clinton (the third was Ike).
If you look at both Europe and Africa a thousand years ago you find that their societies were comparable in terms of technology, violence and standard of living, meaning both of them were terrible. In London in the year 1000 you had a 25% chance of being a homicide victim, and it's not much of an exaggeration at all to say that Norse and Germanic societies had institutionalized violence as part of their religion. The Inquisition and the Crusades? It wasn't Africa that did that. Africans didn't build the gas chambers at Auschwitz either. So the question is what changed.
Don't look at that too closely or you might have to reconsider your racial prejudice.
Well, no self respecting Christian should think what you do about an entire group of people just because they are black, but here we are.
You seem to be suggesting that blacks are not very employable, and that wherever the solution is, it's not something liberals want to contemplate.
You're also being very cagey re: specifics.
m-k,
What you said was that "We fought on the wrong side in WWII."
I find it hard to interpret that as anything other than, "We should have sided with Germany."
What it doesn't mean, no matter how much you backtrack, is that we should have gone on to attack the USSR after defeating Germany. (Pretty dumb idea, if you ask me.)
Brett and I were specific, you're the one that said: "typically liberals such as him will demand respect for things that aren’t respectful or not worth regarding."
That's contentless.
Pray tell, what were you getting at with this little coy nugget: "Don’t look deeper into the who or why about unemployability if you want to remain the liberal that you are."
Do you believe there is anything genetic or otherwise inherent in being Black that makes one more prone to violence, sloth, stupidity, criminality, or anything else that you think makes Blacks inferior? If it's not genetic or otherwise inherent, then it's external factors that presumably can be fixed. If it is genetic, then you need to explain all the whites that seemingly suffer from the same thing. Given a choice, I would far rather live in 1000AD Timbuktu or Madagascar than in 1940s Berlin or Moscow, even factoring in all the modern conveniences I would have to give up.
"Pray tell, what were you getting at with this little coy nugget: “Don’t look deeper into the who or why about unemployability if you want to remain the liberal that you are.”"
I'd assume he means that, if you looked too closely, you might find it hard to maintain your conviction that it isn't the fault of the poor that they're poor.
Yes, Brett, class mobility is easy; inheritance doesn’t exist, all education is the same quality, and everyone is at the socioeconomic class that comports with their hustle.
What kind of childlike fantasy do you live in???
What kind of childlike fantasy do you live in, Sarcastro, where you fantasize that Brett said those things?
"you might find it hard to maintain your conviction that it isn’t the fault of the poor that they’re poor."
Get rid of a double negative, and you and this requires that it be the fault of the poor that they are poor.
Which is nonsense.
How is it nonsense? It's not always true, but it often is. And the better the system works, the more often it is true.
That's the dirty little secret mentioned above that liberals have a tough time wrapping their head around.
And how on earth does inheritance cause poverty, as you suggest above? Talk about nonsense!
How is it nonsense? It’s not always true, but it often is. And the better the system works, the more often it is true.
This is unsourced, and kind of awful. We don't usually blame the poor for being poor.
Because our system doesn't work. It takes money to make money.
The rich are generally not smarter or better than average. Inheritance remains the best predictor of wealth.
It's incredible you could look at Silicon Valley and think those dudes are just smarter than the rest.
This is unsourced, and kind of awful. We don’t usually blame the poor for being poor.
This isn’t an argument.
If someone chooses not to work and they don’t have additional means to support themselves, they deserve to be poor. If don’t work because they have committed a bunch of crimes and no one will hire them, they deserve to be poor. Etc.
Because our system doesn’t work. It takes money to make money.
Now this is unsourced. It’s easier to make money if you have money, but plenty of people without resources who get educated in free public schools avoid poverty.
I mean, do you seriously believe that poverty is uncorrelated with making poor choices?
Yeesh. I forgot the damn editing system removes internal formatting, like blockquotes.
You are correct that the rich are not smarter or better than the rest of us. But statistically, they do behave and think very differently from the rest of us.
And since we choose not to behave and think in those ways, we are to blame (some) for being poor.
re: Silicon Valley - Yeah, those guys actually are smarter than you are. They had some other positive attributes, too. Most importantly, those positive attributes led them to make stuff that people wanted. If you were smarter (and harder working), presumably you would have made that stuff and be competing with them instead of ranting here.
In politics there are seldom if ever situations in which there is one single and unambiguous answer to a question like that. The best allocation for society is not mutually exclusive with political interest groups benefitting. It's usually some combination of both. But overall, the question is are we better with government spending or without it, and overall I think we are better with it.
When I was in college, I was forced to spend a lot of time and money on stuff that didn't benefit me personally at all, sometimes to the benefit of special interest groups. But the degree I got gives me a far higher earning potential than I'd have if I hadn't gone. So, it's a mixed bag, but overall I came out ahead.
Did you get the coke?
I think we may be better off with some level of government spending, if only because it averts another government that would spend even more from moving in, but that's hardly to say that we're better off with the present level of government spending.
Diminishing returns is a real thing, as is spending money on stuff that's actively harmful.
Do you ever argue with anything other than strawmen?
I never said that high taxes will always kill an economy. I said they incrementally harm it.
re: Keysian spending policy - Yes, government does spend the money it collects. Nobody said it doesn't. The problem is that centrally-planned spending is always less efficient. Not only is there no "government multiplier", the act of collecting and redistributing taxes is friction in the system that makes a dollar of government spending worth less than a dollar spent directly.
In other words, we could have just as many teachers and pay them better while getting better results if society hired them directly rather than predominantly through government-run cartels.
The problem is that centrally-planned spending is always less efficient. Not only is there no “government multiplier”, the act of collecting and redistributing taxes is friction in the system that makes a dollar of government spending worth less than a dollar spent directly.
I think you are going overboard here. First, for much government spending there is no basis for comparison with the private sector. Not many private air forces around, or highways, for that matter.
Second, are you really claiming there is no such thing as a multiplier? I have to say that is really just ideology talking. While the size of the multiplier is a subject of debate, its existence isn't.
Mathematically, yes there is such a thing as a multiplier because 1 is a multiplier. But that’s not what Keynesians mean when they talk about the “multiplier”. The unstated part is that there is a multiplier and that it is greater than 1. The more mathematically precise version of my claim is that there is a multiplier but that the inherent economic friction means that the multiplier will be less than 1.
I will also concede that there are some very, very rare conditions where government spending can have a multiplier greater than 1. The strong evidence of history, however, is that the Keynesian spending model is a bust.
Essentially what happened is that Democrats and Republicans were sufficiently at each other's throats, what with the impeachment effort, that they couldn't immediately agree on how to spend the loot.
Collective responsibility.
98% [at least] of Germans backed the Nazis until the war started being lost, a few words in their constitution doesn't change that.
Those Germans are not really the ones in power these days, Bob.
And, you yourself say morality is for suckers. You can't consistently mantain both positions.
Regular day to day morality for a politician is for suckers. A politician is judged on victory or defeat, politicians are champions for their voters. Lies are expected and a politician who tells the truth will fail his voters if that means a loss. Its morality in the context of normal “politics”, not real life.
morality for politicians doesn’t include regular murder let alone mass murder, that is not “politics”.
"Those Germans are not really the ones in power these days"
The ones who wrote their constitution were "those Germans" though.
You think the German Constitution carries some kind of Nazi guilt? That's very strange, dude.
The ones who wrote their constitution were “those Germans” though.
Not really.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parlamentarischer_Rat#Die_Abgeordneten
(Sorry, the information about the delegates at the Parliamentary Council in 1948-49 isn't really available in the English version of the Wikipedia article. But the basic idea is that there were lots of people in there who spent the war as refugees in Britain or in a concentration camp.)
The defense budget in 1992 was $325B. The lowest it fell during the Clinton Administration was $288B in 1996. Now, $37B is not small change, but:
1992 revenues from personal and corporate income taxes (not including payroll taxes) were $575B. In 2000 they were $1.2T.
So attributing the declining deficits to the peace dividend looks like a stretch.
As for "bubble jobs," what are they? How many were there, and why were they "bubble jobs" as opposed to just a growth associated with economic recovery?
Alan Greenspan was a serial bubble blower and between the LTCM collapse in ‘98 and the anticipation of all the Y2K horrors he blew a doozy. Bubble jobs were tech jobs at companies that should never have existed if not for Greenspan’s cheap money and what later came to be known as the Greenspan put.
Federal tax revenue by year:
1995 $1.35T
1996 $1.45T
1997 $1.58T
1998 $1.75T
1999 $1.85T
2000 $2.03T
2001 $1.99T
2002 $1.85T
2003 $1.78T
See that bubble of tax revenue moving through? After ‘03 it turned back up again responding to The Maestro’s next bubble - the housing one that burst in 2008 and caused an Almost Depression.
Clinton did ok as president but his one-year surplus was pushed over the top by bubble jobs.
Reagan is looking pretty bad right now as Russia led by Putin is worse than the Soviet Union under Gorbachev…be careful what you wish for. 😉
What exactly are you trying to claim here? That there wasn't violence as part of African cultures?
No, that whites have as much violence to own as blacks do.
"Violence" isn't racial...it's cultural.
And if you're considering culture, you really need to be far more specific than "black" or "white"....because if you're talking globally, there is no "white" culture anymore than there's a "black" culture.
If you're talking very specifically about the United States, that may be different.
So, which is it?
“Actually, the first huge deficit president was Ronald Reagan, ”
Ah, those were the days, heads exploding over a $200B deficit…
Reagan had a bit of help, the house was under Democratic control for all of his eight years.
Did you forget about Roosevelt?