The Volokh Conspiracy
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Second Amendment Roundup: U.S. Seeking Cert on Prohibited Persons
The Administration is hoping that bad facts will make bad law.
Federal law prohibits nine categories of persons from receipt and possession of a firearm. As the Supreme Court continues to develop its Second Amendment jurisprudence, which ones of those types are most significant in regard to representativeness and numerosity?
Felons in possession of firearms have been the leading type of prosecution under the federal Gun Control Act since its enactment in 1968. There were 7,454 such convictions in 2021.
The ban on felon possession is found in 18 U.S.C. § 922(g), which also includes eight other categories of prohibited persons – all of which pale into insignificance compared to the felon ban. One of the more minor categories is a person subject to a domestic restraining order. While the feds aren't too good at posting current data, in the years 2013 to 2017, there were 26,717 such convictions based on felon status, and only 121 for restraining order status. The proportions can't be much different today.
Given that disparity, why is Attorney General Merrick Garland so keen in having the Supreme Court decide whether the restraining order folks, instead of the felons, are protected by the Second Amendment? The felon issue is ubiquitous, and not just because of the sheer numbers. It involves not only the violent felony vs. non-violent felony issue, but also whether any limits exist in this day-and-age in which almost anything can be a felony. Why has Martha Stewart forfeited her right to have a gun for self-defense?
So why would the government try to convince the Supreme Court to take up the atypical issue regarding persons with a restraining order? Here's my take.
The Biden Administration is salivating at the prospect of United States v. Rahimi, about which I've written previously, being the next Second Amendment case to be decided by the Supreme Court. That's because the defendant in the case appears to be such an odious character. Arrested by police following multiple shooting sprees, Rahimi was prohibited from gun possession because he was subject to a prior agreed-upon civil protective order. The Fifth Circuit found the ban to be facially unconstitutional because no historical analogue allowed disarming a person based on a civil protective order rather than a criminal proceeding.
The government didn't bother to file a petition for rehearing en banc, and rushed straight to the Supreme Court with a cert petition. There is a reason for the adage that bad facts make bad law, and the Administration is angling to take full advantage of that.
So do the amici that have filed briefs urging the Court to grant cert. One of them is California Governor Gavin Newsom, who argues that the Court's "intervention is needed immediately," given that the Fifth's Circuit's decision "is just one example of lower courts misreading Bruen."
It then lists some of the other decisions that take the Second Amendment seriously, an obviously unacceptable outcome to those who wish to re-designate the right to bear arms to a second-class status.
As the cert petition states, "the government is filing this petition for a writ of certiorari on a highly expedited schedule . . . in order to allow the Court to consider the petition before it recesses for the summer." Nothing like rushing to the front of the line and insisting to the Court, "Pick me!"
And the government recently opposed the full length of an extension requested by Rahimi's counsel to respond to the petition. In its response the government indicated that it would only agree to cutting in half counsel's normal reply time "given the substantial disruption caused by the court of appeals' decision," in order "to allow the petition to be distributed on June 6 for consideration at the June 22 conference." The extension was granted only in part, to May 30.
To be clear, whether the Court considers the petition now or in the fall, it will not hear the case until next term. An apparent aim of the Administration is to ensure that Rahimi is the next Second Amendment case the Court hears. If there are other meritorious prohibited-person petitions that are filed after cert is granted in Rahimi, under typical Court practice those petitions likely would be held pending resolution of Rahimi. After that, the Court would grant cert, vacate, and remand (GVR) the pending cases for reconsideration in light of whatever it would decide in Rahimi.
A better approach would be for the Court not to act too quickly and to wait until it returns from its summer recess to decide whether to take Rahimi or another case for plenary review. The Court likely will at that time have a fuller menu of options from which to choose. For example, the Third Circuit is poised to decide the Range v. Garland case en banc. Range presents an as-applied civil challenge to the federal felon prohibition on behalf of an individual who was convicted for excluding lawn-mowing income from his food stamp application nearly thirty years ago. The three-judge panel upheld his conviction based on improper historical analogues such as the disarming of slaves.
In addition, the Second Circuit recently held argument in Zherka v. Garland, a challenge similar to Range's on behalf of an individual convicted of conspiring to commit bank and tax fraud. The district court upheld his legal disability under the "two-step" framework that Justice Thomas characterized in Bruen as "one step too many." These cases present more typical challengers than the one in Rahimi, and the facts of the cases are less likely to have a skewing effect on the law.
Rather than precipitously granting the Rahimi petition and then holding cases like Range and Zherka if they come before the Court, the Court should consider the full array of petitions that are filed when it comes back from recess and grant the one, or ones, most representative of the challenges that typically are brought in this area. The Court could then hold Rahimi pending the outcome of that case – or at a minimum grant another petition alongside Rahimi.
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Now THIS is how you use "Read More". Ilya, take notes.
Here is the thing.
Those who, while driving with a BAC three times the legal limit and fleeing the police, kills a family of four in a car crash, and convicted, will nevertheless be able to own all the cars that they want, and they can even drive cars on their own private property or on any private property with the owner’s consent.
But a person convicted of a non-violent felony is prohibited from the peaceful possession of firearms.
How do you reconcile the two?
There isn't even a constitutional right to a car.
That's actually a much more interesting question than all this whining by gun nuts: is there a constitutional right to travel?
Under the ECHR there have been cases about forms of house arrest that weren't contingent on a criminal conviction. (Because they were used for terrorists where the evidence came from confidential intelligence sources.) The basic conclusion is that there are limits to how much you can restrict people's freedom to move around without actually convicting them of a crime.
I assume that, under the US constitution, it would similarly be difficult if the government (following some non-criminal process) pointed at someone and told them they weren't allowed to leave their home town. Even if that was based on at least some "process", I'd assume that would violate the due process clause.
So where does that leave a hypothetical law/order that effectively leaves someone unable to drive a car for the rest of their life? OK, you can get a ride from someone else or take a taxi, but in some parts of the US not being able to drive would be a substantial restriction on your freedom to move around. Unconstitutional?
Equating not being able to drive a car to banning freedom of movements is quite a stretch, even for you.
Seems like millions of people have managed to walk across Latin and South America to illegally cross our border. No car involved.
That works for me. Americans on the internet always tell me how essential car ownership is to being able to live a normal life in most parts of the US. Just running the argument from there...
Legally, the US Constitution protects a right to travel between states. A fortiori, there is also a right to travel within one's state. https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artIV-S2-C1-13/ALDE_00013789/
In practice, life in much of America is considerably easier if one has a car. However, lots of big-city residents do without, and are proud of it.
You have mistaken a practical tool in many areas for a legal principle, and that mistake reflects poorly on you.
The reason we can have things like the no-fly list is because courts have held that "burdens on a single mode of transportation do not implicate the right to interstate travel."
Not saying these cases were rightly decided, and I'm too lazy right now to research how settled this principle is, but that's the law in at least some jurisdictions.
The problem with the no-fly list isn't that it implicates the right to interstate travel. It's the aggressive, in your face lack of anything even vaguely resembling due process.
The problem with the no-fly list isn’t that it implicates the right to interstate travel. It’s the aggressive, in your face lack of anything even vaguely resembling due process.
^ This.
I would suggest that they're both problems with the no-fly list.
In principle, if you cured the lack of due process, you could constitutionally infringe on any right to interstate travel; Can't do much of that while in prison, for instance.
So I think it's all on the due process end, actually. And the no-fly list has essentially none AT ALL.
Why stop at just prohibiting them from flying commercially on an airplane?
Why not also do the following:
- prohibit them from practicing law or medicine
- require them to wear a distinctive badge when out in public
The supposed purpose of the list is to lesson risk with respect to air travel. How would prohibiting the practice of law or medicine or requiring distinctive badges in public reduce risk of acts of terrorism on planes?
There is definitely a constitutional right to travel, this article goes into extensive detail:
https://repository.law.uic.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1746&context=jitpl
But it’s routine for elderly people to lose their driver’s license, for whatever time they’ve got left, and in the multiple cases where it happened in my extended family it was a damn good thing. I fully respect their right to risk their own lives, but not to terrorize an entire small city.
That's more like a justified infringement of a right, rather than something that isn't a right at all.
Here is another thing.
If the next second amendment cases in the Supreme Court are brought by violent criminals seeking to overturn their convictions for possessing guns, that's not going to be good for gun rights.
I don't think that's a problem, because violent felons possessing guns is certainly a loser.
What I would like too see is governor's in constitutional carry states start pardoning people who were convicted of illegal carrying that would now be legal.
I'd also like to see people convicted of illegal carry in NY contest their previous convictions, if the state was violating their rights pre-Bruen, and their only crime was carrying a gun when the state refused them their right to bear arms then they should have their convictions set aside.
Are your second two sentences supposed to have a connection to your first? And are any of them supposed to be responsive to my comment?
You might question why a felon, presumably one who has violated more than just the possession law, is allowed to plead to that and have the other charges dropped.
Why would one assume that someone who clearly violated a carry law would "presumably" have committed other crimes - esp. felonies?
Consider the case where the facts made it very, very clear (video, bodycam, witnesses, suspect statement after being mirandarized, physical evidence, etc) that the person was carrying in a manner that was prohibited. The defendant might take a plea bargain pleading guilty to the gun carrying charge even if there was no other crime they could have been charged with. They may, for example, do so to save the cost of a trial and in exchange for a very light sentence (perhaps just a few hours of community service) even though they could have been, for example, sentenced to a 18 months in prison.
As well, that same person may of decided to fight the charge and been found guilty of the unconstitutional law - no plea bargain involved.
re: "brought by violent criminals seeking to overturn their convictions"
I'm not sure why you think that's even vaguely relevant here. Did you actually read any of the cases that the article lists?
Range v Garland - excluded some lawn-mowing income on his food stamp application 30 years ago - a felon but not even close to a violent one
Zherka v Garland - lied to a bank and cheated on his taxes - again a felon but not violent
US v Rahimi - violent but not a felon
Did I say anything about felons?
Violent criminals?
You did not. I mis-read. My apologies.
If the next second amendment cases in the Supreme Court are brought by violent criminals seeking to overturn their convictions for possessing guns, that’s not going to be good for gun rights.
How so?
SCOTUS would be unlikely to grant certiorari on application of a violent criminal seeking to overturn a felon in possession conviction. The Court opined in Heller that ¨nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill¨. At footnote 26 such measures were labeled ¨presumptively lawful,¨ and nothing in Bruen is to the contrary.
How is that an answer to my question about the statement I quoted?
Bruen leaves a lot of open questions about the scope of permissible regulations, and the post-Heller and McDonald opinions make it clear that the lower federal courts are broadly hoplophobic and want to give governments broad latitude to restrict gun access.
It’s also very clear that at least 5-6 justices don’t like the idea of violent criminals having guns. And if they’re forced to write an opinion explaining why it was okay to punish the violent criminals for having guns, that holding is likely to be used to justify rules that burden the rights of us non violent non criminals as well.
if they’re forced to write an opinion explaining why it was okay to punish the violent criminals for having guns, that holding is likely to be used to justify rules that burden the rights of us non violent non criminals as well.
It would have to be one piss-poorly written opinion in order to be rationally used for such justifications. And any lower court that would so twist a well-written opinion on why it's constitutional to deny firearm possession to violent criminals in order to deny that right to law-abiding citizens would do so in the absence of any such opinion anyway...as so man of them have been doing already.
The difference is the relationship between the convicted and the victim.
In the DUI scenario, the convict may or may not know the victim(s), and the relationship is not a factor.
But in the Lautenberg amendment, the relationship is THE KEY factor.
"The Court further stated that, while a squeeze of the arm that causes a bruise may not be able to be described as 'violence' in every context, 'an act of this nature is easy to describe as ‘domestic violence,’ when the accumulation of such acts over time can subject one intimate partner to the other’s control.'”
https://www.justice.gov/archives/ovw/blog/supreme-court-decision-limits-batterers-access-guns
Cars aren’t designed for killing. They’re designed for travel. That's the difference.
And yet they kill more people in the United States than guns do. Curious!
They used to, but apparently not any more.
I refuse to give credence to any statistic that lumps together gun suicides and homicides.
-dk
It is like calling committing suicide by running an ICE inside a garage as a automobile death.
"It is like calling committing suicide by running an ICE inside a garage as a automobile death."
Or calling intentionally running into a bridge abutment an automobile death.
Did you fail to notice that the study you're citing doesn't actually address gun or vehicle deaths? The study reaches its conclusion by changing the definition to "years of potential life lost". It's a screwy backdoor way of saying that the teenager who uses a gun to commit suicide in guilt over his crimes is (roughly) five times more important than the grandmother he killed in a hit-and-run.
Note: There may be valid social or policy reasons to switch to a "years of life lost" metric but it is dishonest to say that it's the same metric as "count of those killed".
IIHS: "A total of 42,939 people died in motor vehicle crashes in 2021"
Pew: "In 2021, the most recent year for which complete data is available, 48,830 people died from gun-related injuries in the U.S., according to the CDC."
Kleppe:"And yet they kill more people in the United States than guns do. Curious!"
Curious indeed.
And, as DK above observed, many (in fact most if previous years ratios apply) of those gun deaths were suicides which makes the comparison ridiculous.
Japan at one time had the first or second highest suicide rate in the developed world yet private ownership of firearms where they were readily accessible was basically banned and possession at all was very, very rare. This proves that firearms are not necessary for high suicide rates and suggests (since Japan is no longer at the top of the "suicide list") that other issues other than the instrument are likely the dominant factor in suicide.
As well, the usual balancing act of "how many lives lost, how many lives saved" is necessary for an honest comparison. The "gun-related deaths", even excluding suicides, includes cases of legitimate self defense where the criminal ends up losing the encounter.
The statistic also fails to take into consideration of how many victim lives may be saved and serious injuries prevented by Defensive Gun Use. The number of DGUs is hard to determine as many (esp. in locales with draconian restrictions on law abiding citizens possessing/carrying firearms) are never reported as no firearm is fired however it is a number FAR in excess of the total gun deaths number. Note that merely the presence of an armed victim often results in the criminal deciding it's healthier to be elsewhere and therefore arranges that to be the case ASAP.
None of any of what you said changes the fact that in the US in 2021 more people died from gun shot injuries that from automobile accident (and suicide) injuries. You can make all the unsubstantiated assertions about suicides and the millions of lives saved every day from "Defensive Gun Use" (are you really Frances Mengele in disguise?) you like but it doesn't change the numbers.
Better than the cite Voize offered but still not definitive. Your quote from Pew traces back to the CDC. And in fairness to Pew, I've seen a lot of articles citing that same number and all the ones with attribution point to the CDC. Unfortunately, the CDC is not currently running on a sterling reputation for accuracy or scientific integrity. The FBI's data is generally considered more credible and does not show the magnitude of increase in 2020 and 2021 that the CDC's numbers show.
"The FBI’s data is generally considered more credible and does not show the magnitude of increase in 2020 and 2021 that the CDC’s numbers show."
Ok, why are the CDC's numbers and the FBI's numbers different? Is it because the FBI is keeping track of crimes and some (or many, I don't know) gun deaths are not criminal matters?
"Unfortunately, the CDC is not currently running on a sterling reputation for accuracy or scientific integrity." Yeah sure you betcha.
The FBI's data includes suicides, accidents and other non-crimes so it's not that. But, no, I don't know why the CDC's numbers are different. And that's part of the problem - publication of your raw data and your methodology is supposed to be standard practice.
From the pew article:
"CDC fatality statistics are based on information contained in official death certificates, which identify a single cause of death."
"The FBI’s data is based on information voluntarily submitted by police departments around the country, and not all agencies participate or provide complete information each year."
So. the CDC and FBI are counting from different data sources.
As for disclosing data collection and analysis methods and raw data, I agree that that information should be available and easily accessible. Is there reason to believe that the CDC is hiding something? How about the FBI; do we have access to the exact sources of their data? That is, exactly what was reported and by whom?
I can't find that comprehensive FBI data you are quoting from, so a link would be helpful.
For their crime-based statistics at least the FBI collects data on a voluntary basis from state and local law enforcement, and warns that
Missing data from a full one-third of potential reporters would explain their numbers being much lower than the CDC's, who get their data from death certificates.
You're right, that was the wrong link. I should have used this one instead.
They emphasize the number of states where gun deaths outnumber motor vehicle deaths (34 plus D.C., in 2020) but the US totals they report also have gun deaths in the lead (45,222 vs. 42,632).
Suicide by gun is a subset of suicides and deaths from gunshots, which you choose to focus on says something. In your case you care less about mental health and more about guns.
That report focuses on deaths, deaths from guns compared with deaths from motor vehicles. It seemed to be relevant to Kleppe's claim that was about deaths. If you would rather compare suicides by gun against suicides by motor vehicle you will have to find the data yourself.
Well, if we want an honest comparison we only look at accidental deaths from both. Although I'm sure we'd also find that vehicular homicide vastly trails homicides with guns. Suicide shouldn't really factor in either.
Whether a comparison is honest I would say depends on what point you are trying to make, an honest comparison illuminates the issue and a misleading one doesn't, but Kleppe didn't tell us what his point was. He just made a claim that turns out not to be valid.
I don't know what point you would be making by comparing accidental deaths either, it's not a contest. Cardiovascular disease kills more people than cancer but that doesn't mean we don't care about cancer.
In the DUI scenario I mentioned, then family would not be any less dead than a family of four killed by gangbangers trying to gun down rival gangbangers.
Nor would they be less dead had the died of covid, or been killed in a tornado. You seem to be trying to make some point about felons being denied gun rights while other miscreants not being forbidden to own cars. Perhaps you are trying to suggest that drunk drivers should be forbidden to own or operate vehicles. If that's so, why don't you just say it rather than talking about drive by shooters or something.
Cars aren’t designed for killing. They’re designed for travel. That’s the difference.
The irrelevance (and stupidity) of the "what they're designed for" argument cannot be overstated here. If someone caves in your skull with a Louisville Slugger, the fact that it was designed for playing a game isn't going to make you any less dead.
So, prohibit those who commit crimes with baseball bats from posessing baseball bats. Or those who commit vehicular homicide from owning or operating cars. Seems fine too me.
Like all commercial products, cars and guns are designed for sale. Any utility for some other purpose is relevant only insofar as it advances selling them.
In my state a DUI-related license suspension prohibits operation of a motor vehicle in all places, including private property not open to the public. I think the courts misinterpreted the relevant statute, but the statute now means what the courts say it means.
I'm sure there are states with different policies, just like there are states that do or do not criminalize drunk driving on private property not open to the public.
I seem to recall that Washington allows you to drive on private not-open-to-the-public land without a license, but not with a suspended license.
The federal government pretty regularly defends the constitutionality of federal statutes, so the fact that the first case striking it down also has sympathetic facts doesn't seem like it requires a lot of explanation.
It shouldn't be difficult to find a more sympathetic test case; The Lautenberg amendment didn't just apply this ownership ban to people convicted AFTER its enactment. It also applied to people convicted BEFORE it was enacted!
Even people who had pled guilty to the misdemeanor only because they'd only faced a fine if convicted, and judged the fine cheaper than contesting the charge. Frankly, that part should have been struck down even if there wasn't a 2nd amendment.
If I recall right, the Lautenberg amendment was upheld only on the basis that prohibiting somebody from owning a gun didn't implicate any right.
On what basis should that part have been struck down?
You really think there aren't any constitutional issues when they pass a statute years after the fact adding to the penalty for a crime? Years after the trial or guilty plea? They can just keep coming back and adding new penalties?
The courts said that losing your right to own guns 'wasn't a penalty'', but the courts say a lot of things that are complete bullshit. And now that bullshit rationale for upholding retrospective application has been repudiated by Heller; Even if the Court won't restrict rights deprivation to felonies, how can they justify that retrospective effect any longer?
Retrospective, ex post facto; Pretty much the same thing, no? Or are you looking forward to losing your right to vote over a parking ticket back in the 90's?
Why is the Administration so concerned about the domestic violence exclusion? ("Given that disparity, why is Attorney General Merrick Garland so keen in having the Supreme Court decide whether the restraining order folks, instead of the felons, are protected by the Second Amendment?")
Easy- because it doesn't want wife beaters have easy means to shoot their wives.
Seriously, I can't think of a better example of living in a bubble than this. When a woman who has been domestically abused turns up murdered, the most likely culprit, by far, is the husband/boyfriend who was abusing her. Which means that domestic violence gun ban saves the lives of vulnerable women. And not only that, but it's totally consistent with the Second Amendment- people who can't obey the rules against domestic violence have proven themselves unfit to defend the free state.
Finally, this is enormously politically popular. You want to lose a bunch of elections? Have the Supreme Court rule that wife beaters have a constitutional right to possess guns to threaten their battered wives with.
This is so obviously a fight that the gun rights crowd should not pick. They pick it anyway because (1) a lot of them are misogynists who think that women make up domestic violence allegations or that "traditional marriage" was good; and (2) a lot of people with serious domestic violence problems are nonetheless gun owners (gun ownership attracts hotheads). But it's stupid, politically, morally, and legally. And Biden is absolutely right and this needs to be put to bed as quickly as possible before some women die.
Because once they establish that you can be prohibited from owning a gun without a felony conviction, (In this case, without ANY conviction!) we're back to gun ownership being a right that can be arbitrarily taken away. And that's the administration's goal: Turning gun ownership back into a privilege, not a right.
The defendant here is a nasty piece of work, to be sure. He's a nasty piece of work who shouldn't have been walking around free. And THAT is the real problem here, if you're not fanatically obsessed with attacking gun ownership: Why the hell was he walking around free?
But, no, you want to focus on him nominally being prohibited from owning a gun. Never mind that legally prohibiting criminals from owning guns doesn't actually mean they can't own them, any more than legally prohibiting people from using meth means nobody is using meth. It just gives you another charge to hit them with after they murder somebody.
Being able to stack charges on people who shouldn't have been walking around free in the first place isn't a good reason to allow the government to take constitutional rights away from people without bothering to convict them of a felony first.
Brett, I hope your side takes that position all the way to political oblivion.
But also, I should say that I think it's absolutely ridiculous to pitch the legal test based on "felony convictions".
First, "felony" is completely arbitrary. We could just make DV a felony in every state (indeed, we probably should). But my point is, a legislature can make ANYTHING a felony (subject only to substantive due process that you don't believe in) and thus that makes disarmament of people completely contingent on the legislature. That's a TERRIBLE rule. It's actually much better to ask whether the offense actually makes one unfit to carry a gun.
As for "conviction", that basically gives criminals a free period while under indictment, standing trial, etc. to shoot people. Bail restrictions including restrictions on many civil rights for this reason. The notion that the government can prohibit you from leaving your house (ankle bracelet!) or even detain you pre-trial, but can't take away the guns from someone who has been shown to be probably a violent criminal in a judicial proceeding is CRAZY.
So yes, even legally, you are advocating a dumb position. And it's politically dumb too. And it's misogynist. Just let this one go.
It's not arbitrary, it is the traditional dividing line between offenses that can result in losing a civil right, and offenses that can't.
Or to put it another way, it might be arbitrary, but it's a long standing arbitrary distinction.
"It’s actually much better to ask whether the offense actually makes one unfit to carry a gun."
Don't you need to establish the offense was actually committed, before whether or not it would make you unfit to carry a gun becomes relevant?
"And it’s misogynist."
Why, because women never commit domestic violence?
Actually, the research is that women commit it more than men, the men just tend not to report it for one reason or another. Here's a useful collection of research results.
OK, so you have misogynist views on domestic violence. That explains a lot.
But to answer your question, longstanding arbitrariness is not any better from a rights perspective than newly minted arbitrariness. Indeed, in a sense I may care more about the 2nd Amendment right here than you do, because I think it's crazy to just say anything the legislature calls a felony can disarm you. Some felonies don't have anything to do with your fitness to own a gun, especially in the Three Felonies a Day world we live in now.
Meanwhile, domestic violence is a great evil and wife beaters are exactly the sort of people who have no business being around guns. They are criminals.
No, there's a huge difference between being a misogynist, and refusing to endorse feminist fictions. Both men and women get violent. Women get away with it a lot more, for a variety of reasons, good and bad.
"Meanwhile, domestic violence is a great evil and wife beaters are exactly the sort of people who have no business being around guns. They are criminals."
Which is why you should promptly try them for the offense, and convict them if you've got the evidence, rather than just blowing off that procedure and going straight to the penalties.
I want to protect their wives and girlfriends while they are awaiting trial. Your desire not to, based on your hatred of feminists, is sociopathic.
I'm not willing to pretend that telling a criminal they can't have a gun protects anybody.
Like I keep saying, why should we humor that fiction? If somebody is criminally inclined, telling them they can't have a gun isn't going to do any good. They'll get one illegally, they'll hold one back the government doesn't know about, they'll attack the victim in some other manner.
You want to protect somebody from a violent threat, do something that's actually going to work.
If you think that presenting actual statistical data about domestic violence counts as "misogynist views", that says a lot more about you, Dilan, than it says about the people you're arguing with.
I think that people who talk about domestic violence against men as if it is a more serious problem than domestic violence against women hate women.
Indeed, I think it is obvious they hate women.
Women aren't as strong as men. (See the trans women in women's sports debate.) This means that you can't just count up the number of punches and say "see men are the victims here". And literally everyone knows this. There's a reason why there are battered women's shelters and no battered men's shelters. It's women who have difficulty leaving relationships due to domestic violence. It's battered women who get killed.
So yes, citing these statistics is about hating women, and hating feminsts. It's sick and you can't hide behind "it's just the data".
The only one who even implied it was more important among men than women is yourself.
That's just pretty dishonest.
Like I said, "Both men and women get violent. Women get away with it a lot more, for a variety of reasons, good and bad."
The good reasons would be things like, "There wasn't really any chance that punch was going to hurt you, sissy". Some violence by women, given the size disparity, is just physical venting, about as consequential as yelling. Something men don't have available because of that disparity.
The bad reasons tend to involve things like the cops showing up at a domestic dispute, finding a woman holding a knife, and a guy bleeding, and just mindlessly assuming the woman had been defending herself.
"There’s a reason why there are battered women’s shelters and no battered men’s shelters."
Where the hell did you get the idea that there aren't any battered men's shelters?
"The bad reasons tend to involve things like the cops showing up at a domestic dispute, finding a woman holding a knife, and a guy bleeding, and just mindlessly assuming the woman had been defending herself."
How many times has this happened in the US in the last fifty years? Can you cite just a couple examples, or are you making this up. Maybe you saw it on tv or something.
Who Kills Whom in Spouse Killings? On the Exceptional Sex Ratio of Spousal Homicides in the United States
“Results revealed that for every 100 men who killed their wives in the United States during 1976-85, about 75 women killed their husbands.”
You really think the ratio of murders is this close, but the attacks that fall short of murder is totally one-sided?
"You really think the ratio of murders is this close, but the attacks that fall short of murder is totally one-sided?"
It's quite surprising to me that men kill their wives only 33% more often than wives kill their husbands. In general, it appears that men commit about 80% of violent crimes. (https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/criminal-victimization-2020-supplemental-statistical-tables) It also appears that men commit about 80% of murders (https://www.statista.com/statistics/251886/murder-offenders-in-the-us-by-gender/) So, it should be obvious why the article you refer to calls the percentage of spousal murders commited by women "exceptional" and that those of us unfamiliar with the data would not predict it.
Oh, bullshit. You’re the one spouting the sexist views here. Yes, there are battered “women’s” shelters – and they accept men now. The name is often a historical anachronism. Men have just as much difficulty leaving abusive relationships and sometimes a bit more because in addition to the abuse, they are regularly disbelieved by bigots like you.
Battered men are just as serious a problem as battered women. By claiming otherwise and by making transparently baseless accusations of misogyny, you are displaying the characteristics of a misandrist.
I think that people who talk about domestic violence against men as if it is a more serious problem than domestic violence against women hate women.
Indeed, I think it is obvious they hate women.
Another proud graduate of the Sarcastr0 School of Being a Lying Sack of Shit.
People who talk about 'women', instead of talking about females or persons with/who had uteruses, hate females.
Misogynist pig.
Not that there's anything wrong with the porcine community (including people who identify as porcine), mind you.
"a legislature can make ANYTHING a felony"
The police power shouldn't be construed as justification for a police state.
As for “conviction”, that basically gives criminals a free period while under indictment, standing trial, etc. to shoot people. Bail restrictions including restrictions on many civil rights for this reason. The notion that the government can prohibit you from leaving your house (ankle bracelet!) or even detain you pre-trial, but can’t take away the guns from someone who has been shown to be probably a violent criminal in a judicial proceeding is CRAZY.
The problem is that the procedures in many states for a restraining order are less than for pre-trial detention. In some cases, restraining orders are issued ex parte, and then have to be challenged. And, for pre-trial detention, there is a strong presumption of bail, and the whole thing is only pre-trial, as to which one has (at least in theory) a right to a speedy trial. A restraining order is indefinite. And there are many cases when it’s abused.
So the solution is to require an adversary hearing, where the State must prove that your carrying guns creates a danger. Perhaps similar to what is required for civil commitment, which is less than is required for conviction, but more than a quick hearing.
The solution, which I think SCOTUS will adopt, is that you need more Due Process than is curre
The federal statute contains its own due process standards. So state procedures that don't provide for an adequate opportunity to contest the allegations don't result in disarmament.
Ex parte restraining orders don’t disqualify you from firearms possession under § 922.
Yeah, these hearings aren't technically ex parte, because you are allowed to be present. They're just effectively ex parte, because the judge is probably going to ignore anything you say.
How about we skip the whole stupidity, and just provide genuinely speedy trials?
Brett, you pulled that fact directly out of your behind.
Why don't you actually go to some of these hearings and find out? Or do a study and determine how often the restraining orders are granted.
I think what you will actually find is that most men don't contest the allegations because they are guilty. Often women come in with physical evidence of the beatings. But if nothing happened, men have a full and fair opportunity at cross-examination and to give testimony contesting the charges.
I already know you think that only women get abused. So, if you're the judge in one of these cases, how far would get guy get claiming it was the other way around? How far would he get pointing out that he had defensive wounds, and she was holding a knife when the police arrived? You'd just think he'd been attacking her and she'd used the knife defensively! That she'd been attacking him just isn't plausible in your world.
If only you could deploy at scale the energy required to move the goalposts that fast!
So why stop at just prohibiting the doemstic violence misdemeanant from possessing firearms.
Why not also do the following:
- prohibit them from practicing law or medicine
- prohibit them from having any sort of intimate contact or relationship
- require them to wear a distinctive badge while out in public
The suggestion is that by limiting the criminals' access to guns that it is less likely that known violent criminals will will misuse firearms. Contrary to Brett's unsubstantiated assertions, this is plausible.
Can you reasonably assert that the three requirements that you suggest (though not seriously) would lesson the probability of dangerous violent behavior?
I'll let you in on a little secret. From 1991 until 1993, I worked as an armed guard at a facility that housed battered spouses and sometimes their children, who had an actual threat against them. More than half of them were MEN.
There is a tendency to use "orders of protection" as weapons in divorce proceedings. Courts tend to automatically issue them to women, without real verification.
Another misogynist.
I called it- a lot of gun rights type think this is all made up and men are the victims.
Meanwhile, in the real world, women get killed by their abusive husbands and boyfriends, and this is fairly common. As is hospitalization, bruising, broken bones, etc. And we have shelters in every major city for battered women.
Again, the definition of "misogyny" is "hatred or prejudice against women", NOT, "Failure to endorse feminist fictions".
The facts about domestic violence remain facts, no matter how much you insist on anybody who dares to take note of them being a "misogynist".
This is, for reasons I'm sure are interesting but thus far unknown, Dilan's pet issue that he raises any time it vaguely fits into a conversation. He's impervious to any actual facts or statistics, either ignoring them altogether or simply responding with histrionic name calling as we're seeing here.
As an attorney of 25+ years, he no doubt knows (we should hope, anyway!) that fact-allergic, fingers-in-the-ears, pejorative harangues won't persuade a single person not already persuaded. So it's a bit hard to imagine a constructive motive behind these antics.
Maybe he's in an abusive relationship.
I addressed it upthread. Counting up number of punches and saying "see men get abused more than women" is obviously misogynist.
No, it is not.
It is simply fact.
So, basically your position is that when a woman slugs a man, that's definitionally not domestic abuse. Just doesn't count.
"So, basically your position"
I don't think that's his position at all. I think that his position is that when you consider the physical harm to women as a result of abuse by men to the physical harm to men caused by women it is reasonable to consider attack of women by men to be a more serious problem. Maybe it's incorrect that men cause more harm than women but I've not seen that case made.
Something else that I've not seen addressed here is the sex of the abusing partner in cases where men seek shelter. Perhaps it's overwhelmingly the result of abusing women and not abusing men, but I've not seen that question addressed.
Maybe so long as your spouse sticks to punching, and it's not a situation where the woman is at the upper end of the scale and the guy the lower end, you might have something vaguely like a point. I acknowledged as much above. Punches can at one limit be just venting.
But women don't always refrain from using weapons or foul blows, and just because men are, on average, tougher than women, doesn't mean that any particular pairing has the woman's blows being ineffectual. Plenty of men get put in the hospital by women.
"But women don’t always refrain from using weapons or foul blows, and just because men are, on average, tougher than women, doesn’t mean that any particular pairing has the woman’s blows being ineffectual. Plenty of men get put in the hospital by women."
Who suggested that any of that is untrue and how many men makes up a "plenty?"
In your opinion, are men more violent, on average, than women? Are men more likely to be imprisoned for violent crimes than women? Are men more likely than women to be bigly abusers of drugs and alcohol? In the history of the United States, do we find many more male serial killers who targeted women than women serial killers who targeted men? How about rapes of women by men compared to rapes of men by women? Of course, it is true that there are women who commit crimes of violence, who grossly abuse drugs and alcohol, who commit sexual assault crimes, and, at least one who was a serial killer of men. But, is there a big discrepancy in frequency by sex? If there is, why would you expect it to be different in the partner abuse instance?
To answer your pending question; drug and alcohol abuse are linked to violent loss of self control.
The numbers actually say that women aren't a lot less violent than men in domestic relationships, their violence is just on average less effective due to the average disparity in size and strength.
Dilan Esper. That's why this thread exists.
Why are the goalposts now shifting to "more"? This thread all arose out of Dilan's denial that there's much if any woman-on-man domestic violence at all.
Brian says: "Dilan Esper. That’s why this thread exists."
The strawman of Brett that I disputed: "But women don’t always refrain from using weapons or foul blows, and just because men are, on average, tougher than women, doesn’t mean that any particular pairing has the woman’s blows being ineffectual. Plenty of men get put in the hospital by women."
Where did Esper say that women don't always refrain or, in other words, that women never use "weapons or foul blows?" I missed that.
Brian:"Why are the goalposts now shifting to “more”? This thread all arose out of Dilan’s denial that there’s much if any woman-on-man domestic violence at all."
I believe that you are mischaracterizing Esper's position, but I might be wrong. I know for certain that you are misunderstanding, or pretending to misunderstand, my position.
OK, let's go back to this.
"I think that people who talk about domestic violence against men as if it is a more serious problem than domestic violence against women hate women."
Literally nobody was making such a claim, so who's strawmanning here?
"Women aren’t as strong as men. (See the trans women in women’s sports debate.) This means that you can’t just count up the number of punches and say “see men are the victims here”. "
This is where the relevance of relationships between unusually strong women and weak men, weapons, foul blows, enters. The fact that women on average aren't as strong as men doesn't imply that women can't abuse men, and harm them.
"There’s a reason why there are battered women’s shelters and no battered men’s shelters."
He actually thought that was true!
"It’s battered women who get killed."
The statistics literally say that spouse killers are often women killing men.
"So yes, citing these statistics is about hating women, and hating feminsts."
Daring to bring up facts is misogyny, according to Dilan. He literally thinks actual data is something you hide behind. And we're the ones in the wrong here?
Ok Brettmore, lets go back.
Who said that women "always refrain from using weapons or foul blows"?
Who said that in "any particular pairing [...] the woman’s blows are ineffectual. "
Who said that the number of men put in the hospital by women is less than a plenty?
Conclusory, dismissive adverbs aren't needed if you actually have a reasonable position, counselor. Nor does simply pounding the table harder and attacking your own strawman (e.g., "counting punches") count as "addressing" anything.
You're maintaining your perfect record of running away with tail tucked flinging pejoratives over your shoulder whenever actual data is presented that contradicts your handwaving.
I wonder if you know the definition of the word "misogynist".
Nobody here is saying that women are not being abused by their husbands or boyfriends.
What I am saying is that it happens the other way as well. Your attitude is actually part of the problem. You are basically saying that Domestic Violence can only happen to women. That's pretty much like saying that only White Men can be racists.
The problem here is that the majority or protection orders are given to women. I've talked to several lawyers who have said that when their male client requested an order of protection, they were declined or in a few cases laughed out of the courtroom. The issue here is the suspension of a person's Second Amendment rights because of a protection order.
I have a question. You state that women need protection from abusive men. What is your opinion on gun laws that impede a woman from obtaining a gun for her own protection from an abusive husband or boy friend?
Nobody here is saying that women are not being abused by their husbands or boyfriends.
Oh yes they are. Upthread we get a bunch of crap about how many allegations are supposedly made up, and these cowed men are unable to speak up for themselves at domestic violence hearings.
What I am saying is that it happens the other way as well.
When a woman punches a man, it is with far less force than when a man punches a woman.
You should have stopped at the first half. You lose all credibility in your second half. There have been many cases where women abuse their husbands/boyfriends in serious ways. It is likely that there are men on women cases than the other way around, but your casual dismissal is callous at best.
Oh yes they are.
Nobody has said/suggested anything even remotely CLOSE to "women are not being abused by their husbands or boyfriends"...you lying sack of shit.
It’s the same reason freedom of speech is fought on its own distasteful grounds — keep the discussion there, lest it encroach on more important arenas.
This is why I keep hammering on Congress threatening section 230, unless companies censor harrassment to their content. Skipping for the moment the wisdom and constitutionality of that massive hole a tyrant could drive a truck through, it was immediately applied against political opponents right before an election.
“Censor, starting with our opponents’ tweets, or things might…get broken, and your stock price will “readjust to its proper level” after the introduction of a lawsuit target rich environment and the corresponding massive change to your business model."
Let us recall the words of Judge Wayne Andersen.
https://archive.md/mgil3
Then, as now, the City of Chicago had a huge problem with school shootings and gang violence. Both the Clinton Administration and the Chicago municipal leadership supported warrantless searches of the Robert Taylor Homes. And there was broad public support for this. Why, defending the Fourth Amendment rights of gangbangers must be akin to...defending the Second Amendment rights of domestic abusers.
And here is the thing about civil rights. Defending them requires defending the civil rights of complete scoundrels! No doubt those who sued to keep the police from searching the homes of suspected gangbangers without a warrant must have been very unpopular, drawing heavy criticism from both Democrats and Republicans.
And yet, Judge Wayne Andersen ruled it unconstitutional to search the Robert Taylor homes without a warrant.
Not clear: Why they’d be worried about wife beaters shooting their wives but NOT worried about wife beaters beating their wives. I mean, if we know someone is a wife beater, removing their guns does not prevent them from beating their wives. Meanwhile, anything that might realistically prevent them from beating their wives would also prevent them from shooting their wives, so why don’t we just do the thing that prevents them from beating their wives instead, and get shooting prevention for free?
"...he was subject to a prior agreed-upon civil protective order."
So he agreed to not have guns?
IIRC, the protective order made no mention of guns.
Predictably, you do not recall correctly.
To be fair, you’d have to make it to the second page of the opinion to see that, so I can understand why you wouldn’t want to bother.
If he agreed to an order that expressly barred him from gun possession, that's an easy way for the Court to punt on this one. Even if there are Constitutional problems with the federal statute, this guy waived his rights. You don't generally get to challenge a statute under those circumstances.
It is similar to how you waive your rights by pleading guilty to a crime.
Which Constitutional rights can and have been denied to a felon?
Well, liberty for one. You get sent to prison. That's a pretty big deprivation.
And when you get out, voting in many places.
Maybe I should have said enumerated rights.
Liberty is right there in the Fifth Amendment. Voting is in the 14th. Not to mention that the Constitution requires the federal government to guarantee a Republican form of government to the states.
Liberty and voting are pretty basic rights, and would have been thought so at the Founding.
Should we interpret your question to be "denied to a felon even after completion of the sentence"?
Many constitutional rights are denied during the period of incarceration. Movement, privacy, limits on what you can read or who you can talk to, etc.
Of rights routinely denied after you have completed your sentence, voting and guns are the only ones I can think of. Unless you're a "sex offender" in which case your punishment is never over.
The other reason the Government is so anxious to get Rahimi up to the Court may be that the Fifth Circuit decision (Judge Wilson incorrectly saying that DV orders are 'boilerplate,' but see Dilan Esper's discussion above, and Judge Ho incorrectly complaining about mutual restraining orders, which are forbidden in many states) is so shoddy that it casts doubt on the whole New York Pistol and Rifle Ass'n v. Bruen analytical approach.
Why in the world would mutual restraining orders be forbidden?
The Model Code on Family and Domestic Violence (1994)
https://www.ncjfcj.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/modecode_fin_printable.pdf explains
Sec. 310. Mutual orders for protection prohibited. A court shall not grant a mutual order for protection to opposing parties.
COMMENTARY The Model Code explicitly prohibits the issuance of mutual protection orders. Mutual orders create due process problems as they are issued without prior notice, written application, or finding of good cause. Mutual orders are difficult for law enforcement officers to enforce, and ineffective in preventing further abuse. However, the Code does not preclude the issuance of separate orders for protection restraining each opposing party where each party has properly filed and served petitions for protection orders, each party has committed domestic or family violence as defined by the Code, each poses a continuing risk of violence to the other, each has otherwise satisfied all prerequisites for the type of order and remedies sought, and each has complied with the provisions of this chapter.
Model Code alone does not actually make that prohibited. What states (if any) have adopted the NCJFCJ's model code since its publication in 1994 and what subset of that left the Sec 310 wording intact?
All I know for sure is the Alaska statute on this subject, AS 18.66.130(b):
(b) A court may not grant protective orders against the petitioner and the respondent in the same action under this chapter.
I don't know which is stupider, the conclusion or the reasoning.
How does the order being mutual imply that it was issued "without prior notice, written application, or finding of good cause."?
And what about situations where you know bad things happen when these two meet, but honestly don't know which is at fault?
You might want to take this one up with Judge Ho.
Moreover, the consequences of disarming citizens under § 922(g)(8) may be especially perverse considering the common practice of “mutual” protective orders.
In any domestic violence dispute, a judge may see no downside in
forbidding both parties from harming one another. A judge “may think that mutual restraining orders are not substantially different from regular restraining orders—after all, the goal is to keep the parties away from one another so that the violence will not continue.” Jacquie Andreano, The Disproportionate Effect of Mutual Restraining Orders on Same-Sex Domestic Violence Victims, 108 Cal. L. Rev. 1047, 1054 (2020). “Judges may also
feel that issuing a mutual restraining order saves time because they do not have to hear testimony and make a finding regarding which party is a primary aggressor or even that one party has committed domestic violence.” Id.
But “[t]hese judicial assessments have often led to the issuance of unmerited mutual restraining orders, namely in situations where one party is the abuser and the other party is a victim.” Id. (emphasis added). As a result, “both parties are restrained even if only one is an abuser.” Id. at 1055 (emphasis added). See also Elizabeth Topliffe, Why Civil Protection Orders Are Effective Remedies for Domestic Violence but Mutual Protective Orders Are
Not, 67 Ind. L.J. 1039, 1055–56 (1992) (“[J]udges often issue a mutual protection order without any request from the respondent or his lawyer. . . .
[J]udges and lawyers . . . may be tempted to resort to mutual protective orders frequently. However, when they do this in cases where there truly is one victim and one batterer, they ignore some of the real difficulties of mutual protection orders.”). See generally David Hirschel, Nat’l Criminal Justice Reference Serv., Domestic Violence Cases: What Research Shows About Arrest and Dual
Arrest Rates (2008).
The net result of all this is profoundly perverse, because it means that § 922(g)(8) effectively disarms victims of domestic violence. What’s worse, victims of domestic violence may even be put in greater danger than before. Abusers may know or assume that their victims are law-abiding citizens who will comply with their legal obligation not to arm themselves in self-defense due to § 922(g)(8). Abusers might even remind their victims of the existence of § 922(g)(8) and the entry of a mutual protective order to taunt and subdue their victims. Meanwhile, the abusers are criminals who have already demonstrated that they have zero propensity to obey the dictates of criminal statutes. As a result, § 922(g)(8) effectively empowers and enables abusers by guaranteeing that their victims will be unable to fight back.
To be sure, it is as possible for a mutual restraining order to be issued without good cause as it is for a one sided restraining order. But you should address this by prohibiting issuing restraining orders without good cause, not by prohibiting mutual restraining orders.
Okay, you are stupid or lazy if you don't know the following
The FBI didn’t finish over 1 million gun background checks in time to stop a sale in 2020 and 2021
As gun sales soared over the past two years, more background checks slipped through holes in the system.
So, is the PResident making a fool of you? Or are you making a foll of you? Let's have even more of strict background checks THAT NEVER GET DONE
What does this have to do with the post you're responding to...if anything?
I think he's just complaining that they had to agree that the President couldn't shut down gun sales nation-wide by ordering the NICS shut down, in order to get the Brady bill passed.
Not that Clinton didn't try; The system got shut down remarkably often over weekends "for maintenance" while he was in charge.
With due regard for Justice Frankfurter´s observation that the safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people, United States v. Rabinowitz, 339 U.S. 56, 69 (1950) (Frankfurter, J., dissenting), perhaps the firearms fetishists should give further thought to the wisdom of celebrating the likes of Zackey Rahimi.
One who lies down with dogs should not be heard to complain when bitten by the fleas.
Constitutional rights are often vindicated for very unsavory people or situations. Many deal with criminal procedure, and most of the beneficiaries of those rights are criminals. Ditto free speech, which is often vindicated for speech that is noxious.
So the notion that those who favor a vigorous protection of Second Amendment rights should shy away from protecting them even for unsavory people grates against the whole notion of rights.
firearms fetishists
As if any more reasons were needed to not take you seriously.
While the feds aren't too good at posting current data, in the years 2013 to 2017, there were 26,717 such convictions based on felon status, and only 121 for restraining order status. The proportions can't be much different today.
Who supposes armed felony convictions are 220 times more common than domestic violence convictions against men who have guns? What accounts for that unlikely-seeming disparity? I think if you look into it you will find that some big states, including Texas and Florida, mostly don't even try to enforce gun prohibitions for domestic abusers.
Who supposes armed felony convictions are 220 times more common than domestic violence convictions against men who have guns?
Anyone with an IQ north of room temperature.