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Supreme Court Roundup: The Supreme Court Should Review and Enjoin the Illinois Gun Ban
On May 1, Justice Amy Coney Barrett directed the State of Illinois and the City of Naperville to respond to the emergency application for injunction pending appellate review filed by the National Association for Gun Rights (NAGR). As I explained in "An Opening Judicial Salvo in Defense of Illinois' New Rifle Ban," the U.S. district court (N.D. Ill.) denied a motion for preliminary injunction against the State's ban on semiautomatic rifles and standard-capacity magazines, greatly departing from Supreme Court precedent on the Second Amendment.
While that denial was being appealed to the 7th Circuit, Judge Stephen McGlynn (S.D. Ill.) found that plaintiffs in another challenge were likely to succeed on the merits that the law violates the Second Amendment, and he issued a preliminary injunction against enforcement. See my post. The 7th Circuit immediately granted the State's motion for a stay against the injunction in a one-sentence order without giving the plaintiffs an opportunity to respond.
So now the challengers have filed amicus briefs supporting NAGR in the Supreme Court, and we await a decision there.
While granting the emergency application in an interlocutory appeal of this type would be unusual, there are compelling reasons to do so here, as perhaps explained best in the amicus brief filed by Paul Clement and Erin Murphy on behalf of the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF). As they note, there were only six states with bans last year when New York State Rifle & Pistol Ass'n v. Bruen was decided, and now there are ten. "Instead of treating Bruen as an occasion to reconsider existing restrictions on constitutional rights of law-abiding citizens, they have enacted new 'assault weapon' and/or 'large-capacity magazine' bans, with more still on the way." Quoting phrases from Bruen, they argue:
Rifles, pistols, and shotguns plainly "constitute bearable arms"—i.e., "instruments that facilitate armed self-defense," …—no matter what kind of grip, stock, ammunition feeding device, or other features they may have. The right to keep and bear them is thus "presumptively protect[ed]" by the Constitution. In breezily concluding that the firearms Illinois has banned are not even "Arms" covered by the plain text of the Second Amendment, the district court in this case inexplicably ignored the test that Bruen articulated, and instead simply declared that "[t]he text of the Second Amendment is limited to only certain arms."
This is a very simple, straightforward case. Going back to basics, the Court held in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) that arms that are "in common use" or that are "typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes" are protected by the Second Amendment and may not be banned. As the record reflects, there are over 24 million rifles of the types that are banned in the hands of American citizens. Even the State's brief admits that there are millions of gun owners who possess semiautomatic firearms of the sort banned by Illinois.
Moreover, neither Naperville nor Illinois argue or present evidence that the banned firearms and magazines, which obviously help "facilitate armed self-defense" and which are essential components of modern semiautomatic firearms (both handguns and rifles), are not in common use by Americans for lawful purposes. Yet the district court invented a test that they may be banned because they are "unusually dangerous," perverting the rule that only arms that are both "dangerous and unusual" may be banned.
Turning the clock back to when the Court announced its decision in Heller, D.C. officials defiantly promised from the courthouse steps to do everything in their power to negate the decision, which they carried out by banning whole categories of rifles they called "assault weapons." It was my honor to challenge the ban in the case that became known as Heller II. It should have been a slam dunk.
In the 2-1 decision in the D.C. Circuit that followed, the majority readily conceded that the banned rifles and magazines were in common use. But that was only the beginning rather than the end of the matter. The legislative history featured antigun lobbyists who live in a fantasy world testifying that the only purpose of the subject guns and magazines was to kill lots of people. Apply means-ends scrutiny under intermediate scrutiny, forget about Heller's common-use test, and presto – the law is constitutional.
Then-circuit judge Brett Kavanaugh dissented. Semiautomatic rifles with detachable magazines began coming into common use over a century ago. Handguns, including semiautomatic pistols, are widely used in crime and yet are protected by the Second Amendment. Rifles of all kinds are rarely used in crime. The standard should be text, history, and tradition, not tiers of scrutiny.
Then began the great game of judicial leap-frogging. As I traced in my book America's Rifle, Heller II was cited by the next circuit to uphold a similar ban, then the circuit after that had two precedents to cite, and so on until five circuits upheld bans, mostly under intermediate scrutiny.
Finally, in Bruen, the Court put its foot down against this massive resistance to Heller. As the Court explained: "If the last decade of Second Amendment litigation has taught this Court anything, it is that federal courts tasked with making such difficult empirical judgments regarding firearm regulations under the banner of 'intermediate scrutiny' often defer to the determinations of legislatures." But "it is not deference that the Constitution demands here. The Second Amendment 'is the very product of an interest balancing by the people' and it 'surely elevates above all other interests the right of law-abiding, responsible citizens to use arms' for self-defense."
Following Bruen, several lower courts have been getting it right. Others, like the district court here, have retained an air of defiance to the Court's jurisprudence. That's why the Court should grant the emergency application for injunction pending appellate review. In outline, its order might recite the following:
First, the Illinois law is unconstitutional under Heller and Bruen, which hold that arms in common use are protected. Should the 7th Circuit uphold the law, that decision would warrant summary reversal.
Second, Plaintiffs should not be deprived of their rights to purchase, possess, and sell constitutionally-protected arms during the years-long process that will be necessary ultimately to resolve this case. The irreparable harm caused by this law is immediate and ongoing.
Third, a preliminary injunction is designed to protect the "status quo ante," that is, the situation that prevailed before there was a dispute between the parties. The status quo ante is that Illinois residents, like the residents of most states, could lawfully purchase, sell, and possess these arms. It is the recent act by the Illinois legislature that upset the status quo ante that had existed throughout the state's entire history. That previous state of affairs should continue while this litigation is ongoing.
Fourth, the disregard shown by some legislatures and lower courts to the Heller decision over the course of fourteen years, which is now continuing among some states and courts post-Bruen, is inconsistent with constitutional norms and must be ended instanter. In the words of McDonald v. Chicago (2010), the Second Amendment is not a "second class right, subject to an entirely different body of rules than the other Bill of Rights guarantees…."
Fifth, in Caetano v. Massachusetts (2016), the Court granted a cert petition and unanimously reversed, without briefing on the merits or oral argument, a state supreme court decision in conflict with Heller. Although this case is in a different procedural posture, granting the application would serve a similar beneficial purpose to ensure adherence to the Court's precedents.
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How does Mr. Halbrook type with all of that blood dripping from his hands? Does he cover his keyboard with plastic wrap to prevent clogging?
Welcome to the Volokh Conspiracy -- a favorite hang-out for gun-huggers since 2002. It's lots of fun but remember the rules: no talking about body counts or the ages of the victims.
That gets talked about all the time. Was the number of those killed by the Mexican in the Texas mall 8 or 9? The gun grabbers like to inflate the body count by including the perp.
What’s hilarious is the El Paso shooter was an eco terrorist but somehow the narrative was twisted to make him out as an anti-immigrant Trump supporter…I love it when these nutcases have manifestos and people believe Dylan Roof is worse than the Vegas shooter because Roof is raaaaaaaaacist!!! Btw, don’t you believe the Pulse shooter is the worst of them all because he was an Islamofascist terrorist??
The killer was a poorly educated, disaffected, right-wing gun nut. Awkward, antisocial, an incel, maybe on the spectrum. Does anyone know what his screen name was at the Volokh Conspiracy?
He was Mexican, and we didn't need him here. The rest of your drivel has zero credibility since it comes from the guy saying EV promotes racial slurs, among other absurdities. Yet you persist. You're as bad at reality as a tranny.
well it was a gun that just walked up and shot the bad guy
Remember Vicki Weaver? Or is that the kind of body count you don't want to talk about?
Is anyone stupid enough to follow your links to nothing? Your stink puts off anyone who knows what you are, and by now that must be everybody.
You’re not a fan of thoughts and prayers from jackasses like Ted “Call My Wife Ugly And I’ll Kiss Your Ass” Cruz?
I'm an atheist and not a fan of prayers by anyone. And I lost most of my interest in Cruz when he claimed bogus expertise in birthright citizenship based on having argued before SCOTUS. Then he blamed Trump supporters for being attacked by antifas in 2016. Also there was his willingness to support the Gang of Four(?) amnesty atrocity if an immediate path to citizenship was removed. So, no, not a fan.
Met Cruz in person at a candidate forum back in 2016. The guy absolutely screamed "used care salesman", he was so oleaginous I had to look twice to be sure he wasn't leaving a trail of oil on the floor.
I hadn't had such an immediate, visceral reaction to a candidate since I first heard Bill Clinton speak, and my BS meter pegged and exploded in a shower of sparks.
Cruz is one of the politicians who is disliked by the other side . . . and absolutely hated and loathed by his fellow Republicans. For all the reasons you--and everyone else--have stated. The Dem analog that comes first to my mind is Anthony Weiner. Disliked by Republicans. But full-on loathed and despised by fellow Democrats.
https://archive.md/mgil3
No idea what you're talking about. Not following blind links.
It's a 1994 LA Times article. The judge had enjoined warrantless searches of public housing facilities.
The statement does kind of stand by itself, though.
Warrantless searches of public housing projects was touted as a common sense, sensible solution to the problemf oF school shootings and gang violence.
Those were real problems back then, even more so than today. Those warrantless searches almost certainly would have saved the lives of children.
But there was a case. Judge Andersen applied the Constitution and banned these searches.
That kind of rhetoric (if it can even be called rhetoric) is a lot easier than actually engaging Halbrooks arguments, isn't Artie?
Thanks for the write-up. Powerful stuff, well-phrased. I hope the Court is so rational.
Heller is no different than Roe and state legislatures and municipalities should be pushing the limits of gun control until Heller is overturned…that’s the Scalia Doctrine.
Heller, unlike Roe, is right about the Constitution.
No, I don't expect YOU to grasp the distinction.
Let us remember the words of Judge Wayne Andersen.
https://archive.md/mgil3
Rifles, pistols, and shotguns plainly "constitute bearable arms"—i.e., "instruments that facilitate armed self-defense," …—no matter what kind of grip, stock, ammunition feeding device, or other features they may have. The right to keep and bear them is thus "presumptively protect[ed]" by the Constitution. In breezily concluding that the firearms Illinois has banned are not even "Arms" covered by the plain text of the Second Amendment, the district court in this case inexplicably ignored the test that Bruen articulated, and instead simply declared that "[t]he text of the Second Amendment is limited to only certain arms."
If federal law making it expensive and difficult to own fully automatic weapons was repealed, and they were sold to enough people, would they then be "in common use" and protected by the 2nd Amendment for all time afterwards? Sounds like a road map to creating an arms race among the population.
Really, this whole interpretation of the 2nd Amendment makes it look like a suicide pact.
"People have a fundamental right to own guns to protect themselves from all the other people that have a right to own guns. Once there are more guns than people available, and it becomes impossible to keep guns out of the hands of the few people than can be stripped of their right to own a gun, all the more reason for everyone to own a gun."
A lot of things could be considered suicide pacts.
Paul Harding explained it.
https://www.quora.com/How-can-a-gun-enthusiast-still-claim-their-right-to-bear-arms-is-more-important-than-public-safety/answer/Paul-Harding-14
None of those rights are absolute. Threats and defamation aren’t protected speech, authorities can get warrants if they have a valid reason to suspect evidence of a crime to exist somewhere, and defense lawyers still have ethical obligations.
You aren’t addressing my point, which is that so many are being absolutist about gun rights to the point where the only solution they offer to gun violence is to get more people to carry guns in the hopes that the “good guy” can stop a shooter before the body count gets into double digits.
We are NOT being "absolutist" in any meaningful sense.
Yeah, threats and defamation aren't protected. Words that would be useful for threats and defamation, on the other hand? Absolutely protected.
Likewise, using a gun to rob or murder someone? Absolutely not protected. Owning a gun that COULD be used to rob or murder someone? Legally the same as owning a printing press that could be used to print counterfeit bills or defamatory pamphlets.
I find it hard to believe you don't notice that, for speech, it is the actual harmful conduct that's not protected, while for guns, it's the mere ability to engage in harmful conduct that you want regulated.
I find it hard to believe you don’t notice that, for speech, it is the actual harmful conduct that’s not protected, while for guns, it’s the mere ability to engage in harmful conduct that you want regulated.
And I find it hard to believe that you don't notice that the harm from unprotected speech can have a remedy for the person harmed. Where's the remedy for someone that's been murdered?
The whole "good guy with a gun" solution I see would only limit the number of people killed. And as for absolutism, Texas went "constitutional carry", didn't it? Even if an armed police officer had seen the shooter at the mall carrying a gun, would he have been able to do anything before the guy pointed it at someone?
That is the difference between these kinds of harms. In one case, it is essential to try and prevent the harm from happening at all. I'm only seeing the 2nd Amendment supporters around here proposing ways of limiting the body count or punishing people after the fact. Where are the plans to keep guns out of the hands of people that would do these things?
Not all problems have solutions, but you really think people are going to accept that when it comes to mass murder?
Where is the remedy for somebody who's murdered with a baseball bat, or beaten to death? It's the same: Convicting their killer in a court of law, and punishing them.
"Even if an armed police officer had seen the shooter at the mall carrying a gun, would he have been able to do anything before the guy pointed it at someone?"
Before the guy pointed it at someone, he wasn't doing anything wrong. Is that so hard to grasp?
The bottom line here is that you're using precedents showing that you can punish actually harmful abuse of other rights, to try to excuse efforts to regulate non-harmful exercise of THIS right on the theory that it might make harmful exercise a bit more difficult.
Rights don't work that way.
Before the guy pointed it at someone, he wasn’t doing anything wrong. Is that so hard to grasp?
Planning to commit murder is something "wrong" that can be prosecuted and punished. There was just no way for someone that came across him to know what he was planning.
Where is the remedy for somebody who’s murdered with a baseball bat, or beaten to death? It’s the same: Convicting their killer in a court of law, and punishing them.
No, that is not the same. A remedy heals the harm done to someone. Punishing a murderer does nothing to heal the harm done to the victim. It is potentially a deterrent to committing murder, and it aims to heal some of the harm done to society, but that is not the same as a remedy for the victim. Mass murderers are generally not deterred by the possibility of punishment, and I would argue that society is not being healed significantly by any punishment that the perpetrators receive.
The bottom line here is that you’re using precedents showing that you can punish actually harmful abuse of other rights, to try to excuse efforts to regulate non-harmful exercise of THIS right on the theory that it might make harmful exercise a bit more difficult.
Rights don’t work that way.
People have a right to live, too. Balancing one person's individual rights against government power to protect the rights of other people occurs everywhere in constitutional law. Prior restraint on speech is really hard to justify precisely because there are so few ways that someone harmed could not be made whole after the fact. Government already limits gun ownership in all kinds of ways, and even Heller explicitly stated that it wasn't trying to cast doubt on any other such restrictions than the kind of severe limitation at issue in that case. (But of course, the gun rights side is using it to do that anyway.) The clear goal of all gun regulations is to try and keep guns out of the hands of people that would misuse them in some way. Unless you think that all such regulations are unconstitutional, then we should be arguing about how far regulations can go. But you keep making points that would suggest that you do think that gun rights should be virtually unlimited.
If you don't like the Constitution there is a process to change it.
At the time of the 2nd Amendment's passage it wasn't all that uncommon to own artillery. Deal with it.
What country do you live in? In mine, constitutional amendments aren’t required when one side or the other can get 5 justices to interpret the constitution a different way. It’s a more complicated process to get people on the Court that will rule the way you want, but it certainly involves a lower threshold of public support. A plurality in 270 Electoral Votes worth of states and 26 states worth of senators is all you need. Why bother with 2/3 of both houses of Congress and majorities in 38 state legislatures when you can do that instead? That method also has the advantage of it being about support for a whole party’s platform and ideology rather than a single issue.
And just how many civilians had cannons in 1790 for it to not be uncommon?
Under Heller, it’s just being interpreted they way it was written. The court was correcting a wrong that has existed for too long. You’re just mad about that.
Like Gandy said, if you don’t like the actual text of the constitution, then agitate to amend it.
Usually people say, "The Constitution isn't a suicide pact!", when what they really mean is that it is a suicide pact, and should, accordingly, be violated. Kudos to you for skipping the first step, and going straight to claiming that it IS a suicide pact.
It's not, of course, in the sense that following it wouldn't be suicidal.
Let me clue you in on something you probably actually understand on some level, and are determined to ignore: The people we need to protect ourselves from don't give a shit what laws you pass.
They can get meth and you want to pretend banning civilian ownership of guns can keep them from getting machine guns? They could just import them from the Mexican cartels, if they really wanted them, just like the fentanyl.
Hell, we cannot deport illegals. Do they think rounding up guns is going to be easier?
We chose not to deport illegals. Rounding up guns is actually something we literally can't do, without essentially fighting a civil war. And getting them out of the hands of the actual criminals is harder than that.
We know which places have the most crimes. what would happen if the army dealed off those places and did room-to-room sweeps for weapons and contraband?
I assume the judiciary would get really pissed off.
So would the Democratic party, because they run ALL those places.
re: "Really, this whole interpretation of the 2nd Amendment makes it look like a suicide pact."
And yet, for most of the history of the United States, this "interpretation" of the 2nd Amendment was in effect. Regular citizens could and did own artillery, repeating rifles and every other weapon used by the military even up to and including warships. There was a notable lack of "suicide" during that time.
Uh, no, it wasn’t. 1. You are confusing the fact that at least some states and Congress chose not to ban civilians from arming their ships with cannons or to have other arms used by the military with that being a guaranteed right under the 2nd Amendment. 2. Heller was decided in 2008. That was when the 2nd Amendment was first interpreted as an individual right to arm oneself for self defense.
Prior to the 1930s, neither Congress nor any state had such rules. They didn't have those rules because the general understanding was that it was a guaranteed right under the 2nd Amendment. Heller was not a first interpretation - it was a return to the original interpretation.
That's why the NFA was a tax law: According to congressional testimony they knew actually banning guns wasn't constitutional.
They didn’t have those rules because the general understanding was that it was a guaranteed right under the 2nd Amendment.
How do you know that there was a "general understanding" that it was a guaranteed right to own cannons or whatever guns people wanted for personal self defense? Cherry picked history? That can cut both ways.
Heller was not a first interpretation – it was a return to the original interpretation.
It was the first interpretation by the Supreme Court that made that claim, and that means that it was the first time that interpretation had the force of law.
Read some history, Jason. Because right now, you’re ignoring it because it doesn’t fit your beliefs as to how things should be.
Because people did?
Privately owned cannons (and warships) played a significant part in the Revolutionary War, from the very beginning.
It'd be insane to claim that a common practice, that the writers of the Constitution agreed with, before suddenly became banned without those same people ever mentioning it.
One of the things the Brits were trying to seize at Lexington/Concord was a couple of cannon. The colonists seemed to think they had a right to keep them.
Amusingly, they didn't find the field cannon they were looking for, but they did find two privately owned siege guns.
Siege guns being big guns, designed to knock down city and fortress walls from a long ways away. You know, strategic weapons, of the sort useful for nothing but fighting a government.
The very sort of thing the gun-grabbers love to tell us the Founders never intended us to have access to.
There are already enough fully automatic weapons in public hands that they qualify as "in common use". Per Caetano, the cutoff is no higher than 200k to reach the threshold for "common use".
Seems like there should be some penalty for States and municipalities that pass laws which are so blatantly unconstitutional. If nothing else, censure for wasting the Court’s limited time.
Yet the district court invented a test that they may be banned because they are “unusually dangerous,” perverting the rule that only arms that are both “dangerous and unusual” may be banned.
If there was ever a context where that made sense, it is gone now, shot to pieces by an undeniable preference for AR-style rifles among active-shooter style mass murderers. Those guns have proved themselves unusually dangerous. In light of nearly-weekly additions to the record of hideous experience, that can no longer be treated as speculative.
It has become an outlandish lie to invoke low prevalence for long guns in shootings. One particular kind of long gun shows up again and again, to the near-exclusion of others, in a particularly fearsome kind of crime—a kind of crime which was far less common until this kind of gun became generally accessible.
There is no sign that more experience will not make that record progressively worse. Other gun advocates must pause over that. Halbrook’s depraved insistence cannot license others’ irresponsibility. To practice bad moral judgment among a crowd of like-minded others does not alleviate responsibility. Just the opposite; it becomes worse that way.
You're just a nutcase with a particularly complex delusion at this point.
The PURPOSE of guns is to be dangerous to whatever the hole in the end is pointed at. "Danger" in "dangerous and unusual" has to mean a different sort of danger than, "It's a gun, you can shoot people with it."
Fists and blunt weapons kill more Americans each year than all long guns including the notorious AR-15 platform.
And handguns are the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
I think that you have to make a distinction here between copycat White on White mass shootings in Gun Free Zones, where AR type firearms are popular, and other types of mass shootings, where handguns are the weapons of choice. Of course, the latter outnumber the former by maybe 99:1, but the former are much more likely to affect White leftist politicians and pundits, living in their gated communities or guarded buildings, so are the ones they concentrate on.
Knew this Surgeon in the Army, big into the Martial Arts (had never been in a real fight in his life) his Karate Dojo issued (Japanese for "sold") him a card registering his hands as "Deadly Weapons" (should have had one for his eye watering Flatulence)
Funny thing was the card had an expiration date,
Frank "Licensed to Ill"
PeteRR, it's the distinctive new style of public atrocity I am talking about. The hint came when I mentioned, "active-shooter style mass murderers." Of course, as a gun advocate you know exactly the distinction that term implies. You just wanted a subject change. I am out of patience with circumlocutions insisted upon by people without the moral fiber to face issues squarely. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I get it.
You are so afraid of the street thuig, so afraid of the gangbanger, that you want to punish people who have not even been accused of hurting anyone.
Sadly and tragically, too many people have compelling reasons to fear the street thug and the gangbanger.
Your fear of the sdtreet thug and the gangbanger, your desire to suppress school shootings and gang violence, does not justify violating civil rights.
Ejercito, the standards for criminal conviction in court are not the standards applicable to policy and generally applicable laws. In court, before taking away all your liberty, you are entitled to a presumption of innocence. You cannot coherently demand that same standard otherwise—amounting to a presumption of impunity from all generally applicable laws. Indeed, it is customary, and legally required, to enforce laws to control criminal behavior even-handedly against everyone. Thus, you are not even entitled to a public policy presumption that you are not a criminal. You do not get personal impunity from generally applicable laws. If you are forced to obey such laws, that is not punishment. That is law enforcement. You benefit from having it that way.
So you want a new special definition of mass shooting because not enough of them were done with AR-15s?
And no I was not aware of this new thing you invented a few hours ago, so no I don't feel ashamed.
The AR-15 has been on sale to US civilians for more than 60 years. The same type of rifle w/o the plastic furniture has been available since the 1940s. Magazine-fed semiauto rifles have been owned for more 100 years.
Something's changed in America, but it isn't the guns.
Bullshit, you know exactly what, "active shooter," means. When folks see you lying to yourself, to hide from responsibility for what you advocate, they are justified to suppose you are feckless, and unworthy to be trusted with a gun.
“ they are justified to suppose you are feckless, and unworthy to be trusted with a gun”
“They” used to apriori think the same thing about black men, which was also wrong and abusive of our basic rights.
By "folks" you must mean dick-less gun banners like yourself. There is no distinction between mass shooters and active shooters.
Since the actual crime data maintained by the FBI (and others) show a remarkable lack of actual shootings using "AR-style rifles", the "preference" you allege is quite deniable.
Your irrational fears are not a sufficient basis to infringe on my rights.
Rossami, in your case deniability is a bar a toddler could step over.
You still provide no data to back up your claim and refuse to address the observation that the organization that does collect such data (the FBI) shows no such pattern at all. Your repeated refusal to present data suggests that no such data exists and that you're inventing your claim out of whole cloth.
Rossami, what I provide to back up all my claims on this blog is my name on my commentary. How many of the gun advocates commenting here show even that trivial measure of courage? Whatever Halbrook's moral deficiencies, in that respect at least he excels the anonymous pro-gun cowards who comment here.
Also, I do not fear to go unarmed in public anywhere in this nation. Irrational fears are the proper concern of this blog's physical cowards, who cannot muster nerve to go into an American city without the reassurance of a concealed firearm. I would not have supposed this nation could have sunk so low as to host among its citizens such a pack of cowards as comments here about guns. I conclude they are present here above the usual standard elsewhere.
Are you claiming that the low incidence of the use of long guns in crime is a "lie"? Are you claiming that if ALL long guns were somehow magically eliminated from private ownership that somehow, magically, homicide would be reduced MORE than 3 percent? Do you actually care about saving those innocent lives, as you claim, or is banning so-called "assault" weapons really part of some other political agenda that you don't want to publicly articulate? What are you really up to?
Even assuming that all drive-by shootings by gangbangers were committed using AR-15s, and even assuming that no law enfrocement agency in all of American history ever used the AR-15 as a patrol rifle, it still does not justify banning AR-15s, either in a constitutional sense or a moral sense.
Fists and blunt weapons kill more Americans each year than all long guns including the notorious AR-15 platform.
And handguns are the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
Fists and blunt weapons kill more Americans each year than all long guns including the notorious AR-15 platform.
And handguns are the weapon of choice for mass shooters.
PeteRR, does that sound like a sound moral argument to you? If so, get counseling. And don't go near a firearm until you acquire the moral competence to manage one.
It sounds like he's pointing out that YOUR argument is shit. Which is not, itself, an argument for anything in particular, except that your own argument is worthless.
"Take the case of Stephen P. Halbrook, one of the central figures in this new literature. His imaginative manipulation of evidence runs to arguments like this, from his 1989 book, A Right to Bear Arms: the Second Amendment cannot be referring only to military weapons, since a Federal-period dictionary (Noah Webster’s), under “bear,” lists “to bear arms in a coat” as one usage, and only a handgun could be carried in a coat pocket.
Mr. Halbrook does not recognize the term “coat of arms,” a decidedly military form of heraldry presided over by the College of Arms (by Mr. Halbrook’s interpretative standards, a medical institution specializing in the brachium)."
It’s already been pointed out to you that you can’t bear something IN a coat of arms, that the quote from the dictionary entry was referring to the article of clothing.
The quote does not go to demonstrate that bearing arms meant carrying them, though; <a href="https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=255"That was already amply proven. It was used to prove that pistols were considered arms.
By the way, shouldn’t you have credited Gary Wills, if you’re going to quote him so extensively?
You’re not refuting the fact that Halbrook misread the definition.
No, I'm denying it. Refuting it involves reading the WHOLE definition, not just the cherry picked words "bear arms in a coat".
"To wear; to bear as a mark of authority or distinction; as, to bear a sword, a badge, a name; to bear arms in a coat."
It's giving "bear" the meaning of "carry", in the general sense, in all those examples.
And, again, the evidence that "bear arms" was used to refer to carrying them, not just to military service, was quite abundant. This particular quote was deployed to establish instead that pistols were considered arms, since you couldn't fit a rifle into a coat pocket.
The Supreme Court in its more recent decisions beginning with Heller has tended to detach the scope of the right to keep and bear arms from its groundings in relevance to use in a militia (per US v. Miller) and describe it as more a right to personal defense, independent of any context of preparing for future militia use.
I’ve sometimes commented to suggest that this change somewhat broadens the scope of the 2nd Amendment from an interpretation that keeps potential use in a militia, and a user’s potential duties to a militia, in mind. With militia use in mind, a state could potentially impose more rules on the kind of weapons that could be held and the monimum training a state coild require for people to get a livense.
But the change in viewpoint also potentially narrows the scope in some ways. This may well be one.
Large magazines and semi- or fully automatic weapons are highly relevant to use in a militia, and might well be protected by the 2nd Amendment under Miller. However, they are very likely more than is necessary for personal defense. Hence while they are arms within Miller’s militia-focused conception of what kinds of arms the 2nd Amendment protects, they may well not be arms within the meaning of a personal-defense conception of the underlying right.
Mr. Halbrook’s analysis takes individual words and phrases out of their context in the Heller opinion and attempts to apply dictionary meanings, without looking at Heller’s overall import. The Supreme Court may not take as maximalist a position as Mr. Halbtook would like or gleans from these phrases. And his overall approach may simply not be the appropriate analysis to apply to determine the issue.
Keep in mind, though, that the purpose of the amendment isn't to directly facilitate a government militia, but instead to prevent a government that doesn't WANT a militia from rendering one difficult to raise in an emergency.
That's why it's a right of the people, not of the militia: It's supposed to make sure you can have an armed people a militia can be raised from.
From that perspective, you have to consider that a law might purport to advance the end of a militia, while actually having the aim of suppressing one.
In the extreme, they might declare the ideal militia arm to be a Red Ryder BB gun, and anything more powerful to be in excess of militia needs. But even short of that, desiring to foreclose raising an effective militia, they could declare appropriate arms for the militia to be inferior to those they gave their own standing army.
Going back to the era of its enactment, Tench Coxe was promoting the 2nd amendment for Madison. (We know he was doing it on Madison's behalf, we have a letter from Madison thanking him for the service.) Here's what he said about it:
"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." (Tench Coxe in ‘Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym ‘A Pennsylvanian' in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1)
"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American.... [T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." (Tench Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.)
"Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier"; The 2nd amendment was understood at the time, and for a very long time thereafter, well into the 20th century, to mean that Americans were entitled to own weapons fully equal to those born by our nation's soldiers. It wasn't until the NFA in the early 20th century that the government attempted to block Americans from owning military arms.
OMG!! How will people in Illinois shoot each other and themselves unless the Supreme Court steps in urgently!
Just a hunch, but I'm guessing the weekly body count on the South and West sides of Chicago won't change much no matter how or when the case is resolved.
Anyone interested is how "effective" gun control is, in a typical Democrat run (80 years) city, can check this out. https://heyjackass.com/
What's not mentioned in this article is the real possibility that otherwise law-abiding citizens might find themselves in jail for breaking a law they didn't know about. I realize that ignorance of a law is not a legal excuse, but courts should consider citizen confusion among the risks when weighing the various aspects of a cases like this. This is especially true after all the left and right yanking about this law has caused in the lower courts.
They can find themselves in jail for relying on the US Constitution to guarantee their rights.
Time to carefully review the political statement on the flag of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
"Ignorance of the law is not a defense" is a maxim dating from an era where it was presumed that all the laws the average citizen was subject to were "malum in se", prohibiting conduct that was so clearly wrongful to anybody with a normal conscience, that you didn't have to know the law existed to know that you weren't supposed to engage in the conduct.
It is a horrible fit to an era when many, perhaps most laws, are "malum prohibitum", illegal only because prohibited.
But in an era when there are so many laws that a speed reader doing nothing but reading the law could not keep track of them, maintaining this distinction handicapped the government too much, so the government abandoned it, and applied the principle even to laws a person would have no realistic chance of knowing of.
"Ignorance of the law is no excuse" is a legal fiction that stopped making sense about a century ago. Even if your full time job was nothing but reading laws and regulations-with-the-force-of-law, it would not be possible to stay current on the newly passed ones, much less ever catch up on the backlog of existing laws. It is a legal fiction that is ripe to be overturned.
Until and unless we massively prune the legal code, actual ignorance of the law should be a valid defense.
Right, that way your self-defense while you ignorantly stand your ground can be turned into your shooting victim's objective demise while you riddle him with bullets with no justification at all.
Gun rights have made you crazy. Crazy people should not have guns in public.
WTF are you blabbering about?
“ ignorantly stand your ground”
What could this possibly mean?
If you don't know what it means, you should not be trusted with a gun.
Stephen, you are all emotion and zero objectivity on this subject. Get a hold of yourself.
Callahan, on gun questions I can do facts and reason until the cows come home. I have been doing that thread after thread. Logos doesn’t move gun advocates at all, because they never run out of subject changes. Also, to omit pathos when it is plainly called for is as grave a fault as any logical error. To consistently deride legitimately needed pathos is worse still.
News Flash! If it ain't dangerous, it ain't an 'arm(ament).
A baseball bat can be used as an 'arm'; a feather duster not so much.
Politicians who pass these laws know they're violating the Constitution, and don't care. They should be gassed.
I would argue that “unusually dangerous” is probably closer to the correct meaning of “dangerous and unusual” than “capable of causing harm and with fewer than [numeric value] in civilian hands.” The latter interpretation, since we’re talking about weapons which are, by definition, capable of causing harm (otherwise they wouldn’t be useful as weapons) renders “dangerous” a redundancy, making the phrase “dangerous and unusual” equivalent to unusual. All things are unusual before they become commonplace, if the only standard the government needs to meet to ban an arm is “not common yet” they can effectively halt advancement in the civilian arms market by banning anything new before it has a chance to become popular. This is directly at odds with our traditional understanding of how rights work (you can’t ban new printing press technology just because it’s “unusual”) and the letter of Bruen which states new arms technologies are presumptively protected. The only reasonable way to read “dangerous and unusual” is something much more akin to “unusually dangerous”. The chief supporting legal justification for bans on “dangerous and unusual” weapons would be early hand cannon, before metallurgy, chemistry, and manufacturing were able to produce something that was reliably not a pipe bomb with relatively high odds of blowing up in the user’s face and injuring innocent bystanders. At the time, technologically speaking, such a weapon would have been “unusually dangerous” compared to the alternative (bows and arrows/bolts). Technological advancement has made modern firearms no longer “unusally dangerous”.
Alternately, we could clarify exactly what is meant by "dangerous". One might reasonably argue that no modern firearm is dangerous because dangerous, in this context, does not mean "capable of being used to cause harm". Again, this ought to be obvious as such an interpretation of the word would render it a redundancy in the context of arms (all arms are dangerous in that sense.) In the context of arms, "dangerous" doesn't mean "can be used to cause harm" but instead something like "likely to cause harm even when used without the intent of causing harm" (under this definition, cars are dangerous as 50k people a year are killed accidentally, and guns are not as only about 500 people are accidentally killed annually making guns inherently much safer than cars). Or, perhaps, dangerous should be understood to mean something closer to "can cause harm without direct human action at all". Under this definition, neither cars nor guns are dangerous, but rattlesnakes are dangerous.
You make a compelling argument. Unfortunately, the judge in this case has already demonstrated that amending the wording will not prevent motivated and abusive reasoning by those firmly in the gun-control camp.
Rossami, he makes an obtuse argument. He is not so stupid he does not understand that those on the other side of the question understand, "unusually dangerous," to invoke dangers to society generally. Those include not only the advent of a new style of random mass killing, but also destabilization of politics by armed intimidations, and evident intent to arm would-be insurrectionists.
By the way, the salience of the latter issues is amply demonstrated by vociferous pro-semi-auto advocacy, when all demands to serve self-defense needs and reassure personal cowardice could be served by arms less suited to mass attacks on society. Right wingers self-evidently want armed intimidation to become a routine feature of American politics. History teaches that is the road to political hell.
Rossami, “Abusive reasoning?”
Mr. Holbrook and this whole site is awash in the blood of thousands of Americans, and continues to sacrifice them all as part of worship ceremonies at their second amendment altar.
Ohh, nice, how original and witty.
Now do abortion. Then drug legalization.
What they can do, if they get really ticked, is to start pointing out to plaintiffs Section 1983 of Title 42, which provides for private lawsuits against people conspiring to violate civil rights under the color of law.
"Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia."
It is directly intended to allow private citizens in states to sue state officers for violating civil rights, and gun ownership is a civil right.
Once successful actions start piling up against a state, judgements can be entered, and real legal consequences start happening, and none of it requires the DOJ to give a damn, and the state can get in real financial trouble if it ever needs a court to enforce one of its own judgements, and sees the money redirected to pay off one of these lawsuits.
I have the same issue with it. If they'd followed the same "Let's grandfather in violations we couldn't be bothered to stop earlier" principle in Brown, we'd still have Jim Crow.
The only reason civilians don't today routinely own military weapons is that the Court stopped taking 2nd amendment cases after Miller, for a couple generations. Literally if any of the parties raised the 2nd amendment as an issue, "certiori denied!" without comment.
All the modern gun control laws we've gotten used to came about while the Court was refusing 2nd amendment cases, and they have the nerve to grandfather in the results of their own nonfeasance?
I'm tacitly assuming that the government hasn't gone full police state.
If they do go full police state, and just outright ignore all rulings against them? The Declaration of Independence has more to say in that case than the Constitution.
But for any government that isn't ready to burn that bridge, the Court has adequate tools if it has the nerve to use them.
Well, it's on: The courts are finally subjecting FEDERAL laws to Bruen standards.
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/us-prohibition-against-18-to-20-year-olds-buying-handguns-tossed
No, the courts aren’t supposed to be anywhere on the time spectrum as to the culture in any way. In a sane system, the courts would realize that.
Their job is to interpret the constitution as it was written. And Heller reflects that.
If you guys want to repeal the 2nd amendment, then go through that process. The courts have no business pushing the pendulum one way or the other.