The Volokh Conspiracy
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Still Trying to Kill Tenure in Texas
Revised SB 18 has major problems
Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick has been set on killing tenure at Texas state universities ever since the University of Texas faculty senate had the temerity to object to his proposed ban on critical race theory. SB 18 fulfills that mission. It passed the Texas state Senate, but is expected to fail in the House.
The House Education Committee is set to take up the bill today, but a new version the bill is now making the rounds. The substitute version of SB 18 would still destroy any meaningful tenure system in Texas, but it would do so more subtly. So subtly, in fact, that the Texas Tribune characterizes it as keeping tenure in Texas. The Texas Tribune has been suckered, and the Texas House might be as well. They should take a second look at the proposed substitute.
It is true that the new bill says that there will be tenure in system, but the details seriously subvert existing tenure protections. In particular, Section 3(c) defines the property interest in tenure as a single year salary. This is designed to allow university to fire tenured faculty without good cause so long as it pays out a single year salary. This is a mockery of a meaningful tenure system.
The bill also makes some significant modifications in what would qualify as good cause for terminating a faculty member at a state university in Texas. Section 3(c-1)(2)(A)(iv) allows professors to be fired for "moral turpitude." This is not an uncommon contractual provisions, but I do not believe that it is common in university tenure systems. I am extremely leery of how this might be used by university officials unhappy with a member of the faculty.
Part (v) of that section of the bill allows professors to be fired for violating laws or university policies. This kind of language has been popping up in tenure revision proposals in several Republican states, and is often part of the effort to ban the teaching of "divisive concepts" in university classrooms. It is intended to facilitate firing professors for teaching forbidden ideas. It would allow professors to be fired for minor policy violations, and encourage future policies to hem in faculty with restrictive rules backed by draconian penalties.
Part (vii) allows professors to be fired for "unprofessional conduct." This is much more sweeping than how university policies are generally written. I would not be confident about how this might be used by university officials looking to rid themselves of a disfavored member of the faculty.
It is no accident that this subsection concludes by saying that professors can also be fired for any "good cause as defined in the institution's policies." It both recognizes that the legislature is here creating unusual understandings of good cause, and invites future tinkering with tenure protections by university governing boards.
The section also authorizes universities to fire faculty when "there is actual financial exigency," which is a normal AAUP-recognized reason for laying off even tenured faculty. But then it adds, "or the phasing out of the institution's programs requiring elimination of the faculty member's position" One can imagine reasonable applications of such language, but one can also easily foresee abuses. There is no provision here for seeing whether tenured professors in defunct departments can be moved to other positions in the university, which is the standard practice endorsed by the AAUP. Moreover, the possibility that programs might be phased out but for reasons other than financial exigency invites political meddling with universities. Don't like the tenured faculty in Women's Studies? Just eliminate the department, and then the tenured faculty members can all be fired. Eliminating departments is more controversial than firing individual professors, but in the current environment this is an easy loophole to exploit.
This version of SB 18 is not as awful as earlier versions, but it would leave Texas state university faculty with a much weakened tenure system full of holes that could empower university officials to rid themselves of troublesome professors. The Texas Tribune seems to have been suckered by the new bill. The Texas state House should not.
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Oooh, bad choice of words given the events of this weekend,
how about "Take Care of"?, umm, no, "Exterminate"?? worse, "Terminate"???
I've got it!
"Abort" Tenure
Frank
If it ain’t broke…break it!
George W Bush, the president!
It's broke. Break it until it exists no more. It's long overdue.
I think this is a GREAT bill and should be implemented nationwide.
Don't want to get fired, then don't turn your graduate program into your personal dating service, or stand outside the DAs office threatening to bring in thugs to burn the city flat. Don't get arrested blocking interestate highways and don't organize building takeovers.
Don't want to be in an eliminated program, make your program relevant and useful -- Women's Studies once, sorta, was before it simply started hating men.
Don't want to be fired for moral turpitude or unprofessional conduct == don't do those things in the first place.
How complicated IS this?
We have a bunch of tenured schmucks who need firing and I will not be sad to see them fired. And a year's severance is a hell of a lot more than most other people get.
One question on that, though -- will it be like Tucker Carlson where they can't teach anywhere else for a year? I've actually seen a state law from somewhere in the lower midwest that a university professor fired from there can not be on any state payroll for something like 5 years afterwards.
Tenure Delenda Est!
It all depends.
Some Democrat will conclude that your expressing your conservative views = moral turpitude and unprofessional conduct, while also concluding the fellow liberal having sex with his students, teaching communism, or causing violent protests and destruction is just fine.
We can deal with that bridge when we come to it. The Democrats of your imagination may some day be able to do that in TX, but if that were an immediate prospect they'd be in favor of this bill, and they're not.
That's fine and I agree. Just seemed like Dr. Ed hadn't thought of this rather obvious point. This is well beyond imaginary, academics have been fired and certainly not hired because of conservative views.
It's hard to prove the "not hired" portion of your claim, but you should be able to provide a reference to a conservative academic with tenure that was "fired...because of conservative views."
Where do you keep this rock you've been living under?
The Weinsteins, whose views aren't even conservative, come immediately to mind, but there are many others.
ML, THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENING!!!!
It's been happening for 30+ years now -- so why would this make it worse???
UCLA keeps around a guy who habitually launches vile racial slurs.
If conservatives insist on dismantling tenure, why would Californians want to keep a professor like that on the public payroll?
Don't worry, though -- there will always be a spot at Liberty, Regent, Ave Maria, Wheaton, Bob Jones, Oral Roberts, Hillsdale, Grove City, or Ouachita Baptist for a professor who regularly publishes vile racial slurs and is a Federalist Society favorite.
So which of those fine institutions did you attend "Reverend"??
What are you on about, AIDS? Universities love racists, just not white males ones.
For example, American law schools now love CRT, even though it is racist: it relies upon a wholly dubious, essentialist conception of whiteness in order to demonize whole swathes of (the) population(s) for things neither the impugned nor their ancestors actually did, and predicates privileges to them which neither they nor their ancestors actually possessed. Racists thus get hired at most American law schools these days -- especially if they're visible minorities without the sort of scholarly training that's considered to be a sine qua non by ANY OTHER faculty/department!
Even with appropriate formal credentialization, overt racism is rampant throughout English departments, Education departments, Post-colonial studies, etc.
"a guy [that would be EV] who habitually launches vile racial slurs."
Link?
A sixth-grader could find not only repeated uses of vile racial slurs by Prof. Volokh and at his blog, but also a number of articles and columns describing reactions (including those of various professors and the dean of the UCLA law school) to Prof. Volokh's constant stream of racial slurs.
Do your own research, clinger. Think of the tingle you'll get every time you find Prof. Volokh (or one of the bigots he cultivates as an audience) using a vile racial slur.
You cannot take anything AIDS ('Arthur') here says at face value, Gandydancer. He cannot provide you with instances because there aren't any.
AIDS also appears to be, weirdly enough, a long-time clinger to this site, despite ostensibly despising its content (and feigning general offence). Hence, the irony of repeatedly calling others 'clingers' is lost only on him.
AIDS is also too dimwitted to notice his own bigotry. (He's also too dishonest to admit as much, even if he actually had the mental acumen.) For example, his own previous posts show why he's 100% anti-Islam, identifying it as a mere superstition that should be purged from the earth. Whether members of the faithful deem it fit to find out who he is and murder him for doing so is their own business.
However, once you see that AIDS is nothing more than a parochial, uneducated, boorish moron, it becomes impossible to take him seriously. It's best just to see him as the fatal disease that he is (and that his inferior values represent).
Here are the dates on which this white, male, bigot-hugging conservative blog — usually the proprietor himself — published a vile racial slur (although this might not be an exhaustive list, because the slurs are launched here so frequently we might have missed a few) since January 1, 2023:
January 3
January 11
January 25
March 19
March 30
April 9
April 11
April 14
April 15
April 18
May 2
Why does this blog habitually publish vile racial slurs? Someone should ask the proprietor. The Volokh Conspiracy should explain this record. The law schools associated with this blog should say something, too. Instead, I predict more silence, more cowardice, and of course plenty more racial slurs.
Carry on, clingers. So far as stale, ugly thinking and conduct could carry anyone in modern America, that is.
You list a bunch of dates, but not the actual examples? Quelle surprise, AIDS… If you’ve been compiling a list, just note the offending comments, you coward.
Why, moreover, do you cling to this site, AIDS? If it offends you so, why not ignore it?
Furthermore, who the fuck are you to police anyone’s thoughts, and why do you feel that it’s been acceptable to have foisted your ideological bullshit down the Global South’s throat? Do you think there’s really any other credible explanation for the latter other than (vestigial) white supremacism? Perhaps American cultural hubris and sense of entitlement to bully and dominate?
Additionally, if you’re really trying to gut Americans’ freedom of speech and police what they say and think based on your partisan, intuition-driven bullshit politics, then why shouldn’t the red teamers and moderates in your country just blow your brains out? You’re an existential threat to their constitutional rights and free society, so why should you be permitted to live? YOU especially, given that you're not equal.
No, moron, dates are not links. If EV has inappropriately used "vile racial slurs" you could either link to an instance or quote it in context. But, no, all you can do is slur. Because you are a ;lying piece of shit.
Prof. Volokh has bragged about publishing vile racial slurs, and insisted he would continue to do so, just as he bragged about censoring me, and claimed he would do that again, too.
You guys are welcome to continue to try to defend any and all of that. But claiming it didn't happen, after Prof. Volokh admitted it, seems a stupid approach.
Oh, like the time you, AIDS, admitted to raping eight little boys, and then how you refused to apologize to their families, instead accusing them of being ‘phobic’ and ‘heterocentric’?
Prof Volokh’s admission was posted where? What did he state precisely? Against which group(s) was he being racist? (Why does your OWN expressed, explicit bigotry, on this site, not count for anything?)
You can’t be taken seriously, AIDS, and not just because you’re a parochial, illogical, inferior evolutionary dud who’s too stupid to see his own hypocritical dogmas for what they really are.
Stop pretending that you deserve to live, let alone be listened to by anyone.
... you should check out where Volokh Conspiracy contributors teach sometime.
uh...he did
AIDS wants people ‘not in the know’ to think that American conservatives and libertarians only end up at the lower-tier schools because of their scholarly quality, and not because his country’s law school system (including its hiring system) is a thoroughly corrupt, anti-meritocratic piece of garbage. A hiring system so shit, in fact, that people in other departments and faculties (irrespective of their personal politics) in American unis, whose disciplines obviously have their own hiring flaws and problems, are nonetheless always shocked when they learn how completely fucked up it is.
Granted that at least it’s not like the Continent, where long-established political party membership is sometimes/often required. Still, the American model is a corrupt sham — one that’s run almost exclusively by (shamelessly hypocritical) liberals and progressives.
The law schools that hire the most conservatives -- and shun liberals -- tend to be the shittiest law schools in the land.
Our strongest law schools tend to hire professors from the liberal-libertarian mainstream, with a few token clingers.
Why should our best schools emulate our weakest schools, by hiring more conservatives for teaching positions? Why don't conservatives build a bunch of great conservative-controlled law schools to address the ostensible market failure they are constantly bitching about?
Everyone knows the answers to those questions. Right-wingers prefer to ignore those answers and instead push for more affirmative action for professors who are fans of intolerance, superstition, backwardness, and ignorance.
'Everyone knows the answers to those questions'.
No, most don't.
AIDS, don't you ever talk to me like I'm some fucking American ever again; your superficial, disingenuous bullshitting will work on your fellow countrymen, not with me. You evolutionary dud waste of carbon.
As already mentioned, your law schools' hiring practices are a known, global joke. The political distribution of scholars within your tiered system isn't surprising, as most of American law profs were never actually trained to be scholars (ie, they're mere JDs with some white shoe experience and clerkships), and they have NO REAL interest in advancing a university's fundamental mandate (ie, knowledge production). They are instead driven by the desire to police and control ideologies. Hence, their exclusion of BOTH the right and the old left from the 'better' schools. This, when 99% of them would, themselves, NEVER EVEN QUALIFY for academic positions in other departments/faculties, or at law schools in more civilized Western countries.
And?
Is tenure useful anymore?
The principal argument for tenure is that it provides refuge for controversial opinions and research, but the opposite is the case. The controversial/unpopular opinions these days are conservative. Its difficult for conservatives to be published, and the mob shouts down any idea they disagree with. Universities have instituted de facto racial quotas under the guise of DEI. But of course the CRT leftists are the victims, the persecuted, the oppressed.
Tenure today seems to be a refuge for nonperforming leftists who want to censor and stir up controversy consequence-free.
Let it die. Professors should have to defend their position on merit on an ongoing basis. Ideally based on replicable research.
How well is it protecting professors who violate woke opinions?
Serious question
Yes, tenure is useful. All you have to do is look at legislative attempts to prevent study in various topics like transgenderism and systemic racism. These are certainly “controversial opinions and research” in states like Florida, Texas, and Tennessee.
Schools don’t publish most research, independent journals do. Tenure track professors can shop their research to the journals of their choice.
What does racial quotas and DEI have to do with conservative voices? Are you making the claim that only white people are conservatives and thus a racially diverse hiring approach excludes white people? I’m not understanding how you’re tying DEI to tenure here.
While I support tenure, I also support states being able to decide if state-funded schools provide tenure as an option for their employees. It will be interesting to see, if tenure is removed from some schools, what impact that may have on accreditation and student outcomes. Schools like the University of South Florida, who get a great deal of income from a patent portfolio might find researchers opting for other schools where their hiring package includes job security.
"can shop their research to the journals of their choice. "
Actually, peer review journals do not allow "shopping" their manuscripts the way law reviews do.
One can choose to which journal to submit a paper. But until a rejection sending the paper to another journal is not allowed and is considered a serious ethical offense.
“What does racial quotas and DEI have to do with conservative voices? Are you making the claim that only white people are conservatives and thus a racially diverse hiring approach excludes white people? I’m not understanding how you’re tying DEI to tenure here.”
Your ignorance, if that’s what it is, is stunning. DEI isn’t just about paint-by-numbers racial hiring. Diversity contribution statements are a demand for ideological conformity.
"The principal argument for tenure is that it provides refuge for controversial opinions and research, but the opposite is the case."
Maybe in fifth rate institutions it is. Tenure is about freedom of intellectual inquiry and only secondarily about protecting political speech by faculty.
"There is more free speech on the editorial board of the New York Times than at a Harvard Faculty Meeting."
Parse that old claim a bit. Harvard is unusual in granting tenure only to full profs, so statistically (and practically), a whole lot of Harvard faculty do not have tenure and are often reluctant to express opinions that might get them terminated. So in that rather trivial sense, the editorial board of the NYT might exhibit more free speech.
And after 40 years as faculty member at several R1s, I have seen close-up the value in having tenure when it comes to departmental and school-wide business -- junior faculty who need to get reappointed every few years are typically quiet about controversial issues, especially in public settings, yet I remember my own frustration years ago as a young assistant prof that I often had the greatest stake -- certainly the longest stake -- in the outcome of various issues. Tenure authorizes risk taking in such settings, honest exchange of views, and a willingness to stand up for one's convictions, whether dealing with a senior colleague, a department chair, a dean or even a provost or president. That benefit of tenure is often forgotten.
The old left’s class-centric scholarship and views are also under attack. (Scholars like Adolph Reed.) Liberals and the new left don’t want anyone to threaten the DEI agenda, eg by showing how DEI is used to engage in (and mystify) class warfare, or how certain disparities might be wholly or largely explainable in terms of class and not race, gender, or other identity points.
The TERFs are also leftists who are being threatened and being pushed out of unis. How dare they assert that women are adult females! Yes, gender’s wholly socially constructed, BUT not when it comes to transgender identity (somehow…). Fire every single TERF bigot for the irreparable ‘harm’ they cause with their scholarly arguments and words! (In the trans-TERF case, though, it’s bit hard to sympathize, since it’s like Stalingrad 1942: it’s just great to sit back and watch both sides slaughter each other.)
The political stuff is just for the pundits to whine about, tenure is about economics.
Think about it this way.
Realize you typically can't even get a tenure-track job until your early to mid-thirties. And when you do there's typically only one institution in the city where you're a match. Most people don't want to change careers well into their working prime, or move cities when they already have a family, and a spouse with their own job and life. That means they really want to stay there until retirement.
Without tenure this puts them completely at mercy of administrators, unable to complain or raise the alarm about corruptions else they risk getting fired.
This is what tenure is for, so that academics can actually build a life while having a bit of leverage to keep University administrators in check.
I also have to move when I decide to change jobs. That's the risk you take when you opt for a career in an area that doesn't have a lot of choice in your geographic vicinity. Other careers don't get tenure for it. I can understand some other arguments in favor of tenure, but "it's so hard to move" is NOT a persuasive one.
Is tenure useful anymore?
From where I sit, it is especially useful in Texas.
Among the long list of features which distinguish Texas public life as sub-standard, or even repellent, there is one outstanding exception. It is the University of Texas at Austin. I know of a superb scholar, who could teach wherever he wants, who left a tenured chair at a prestigious Northeastern university, to take a tenured position at University of Texas at Austin. When I heard he was doing that, I said to myself, "Wow, Texas must have more going on than I thought."
For national reach, Texas has no other draw like that, public or private. The moment tenure ends in Texas, he will be gone. Others like him will cease to arrive. In Texas especially, ending tenure would be super-stupid. The state already radiates an aura of self-assertive backwardness to the rest of the nation. It cannot afford to up the amperage on that.
Actually, your unis have wildly overproduced PhDs in almost all disciplines, there aren’t anywhere enough TT faculty jobs, and most adjuncts (who are barely scraping by) also want TT positions. (Remember: the American professoriate is composed of 85-90% blue team cheerleaders. Blue teamers did this to your uni system, not greedy red team free market worshipers.)
So, even if established names cease to seek to lateral there, high-quality newbies will continue to apply for TT positions in Texas and other American red states in droves. They are desperate for academic positions. This will become exacerbated by the coming ‘demographic cliff’ and the closure of a large portion of America’s smaller (and debt-ridden?) academic institutions.
Those factors, plus America's overall backwardness (including in most blue state shitholes that bear delusions of being cultured, educated, and well-run places), will of course also lead to more people seeking academic positions abroad. However, given the low quality of a sizable portion of America's doctoral training programs, this may not bode well for them.
Given the race-based nonsense that is going on in the Texas university system, it's hard to complain about these things.
Maybe someone in Texas should research this "race based nonsense" and provide some solid data on it? Presumably, they would, provided they could do the research without endangering their jobs. If only we had a method for protecting faculty from retaliation based on their research choices...
But you don't, and tenure ain't it.
Anyway, no, there's no need to do research into obvious nonsense. Just extirpate it now.
Could a university simply eliminate a department and then immediately recreate it with whomever they want to keep plus anybody new? As a routine thing to do, perhaps every department annually every summer?
Lawyers turning protections into easily evadable legal fictions is hardly knew. Peoples’ expectations of permanence can be easily taken advantage of.
A corporation is often nothing more than a piece of paper in a lawyer’s office that can be dissolved and reconstituted at will, often in ways that ensure that assets survive the alchemy but liabilities and obligations do not. Perhaps the same could be done with an academic departments.
No -- your registrar would come after you with a pitchfork.
I'm being vague here because it differs between institutions, although much of this also comes from the FinAid laws (see below).
As a general rule, if you eliminate a program, you remain obligated to let the students in it graduate from it, unless they wish to transfer to another program (which accepts them).
So let's say we eliminate Women Studies as of the end of this semester -- we *still* have to give Franny Freshman three more years of WOST curriculum pursuant to the contract we have with her -- and if we don't, not only could she sue us, but her student loans will all get recharged from her to us. That's the Corinthian College issue, and it wasn't that the students didn't have to repay their loans but that the corporate entity that owned the defunct Corinthian might have to.
Now to start a new program, you have to start with getting all your courses and graduation requirements approved through the Provosts's Office and (sometimes) state authorities as well. This is neither a small accomplishment nor could it happen overnight.
But beyond this -- now that you have a new program -- what prevents all of the students from the old program from joining the new one -- and then what have you accomplished? You'll have a cadre of radical students shouting down your new professors and then what do you do?
Suppose you eliminate a department, fire the professors, create a new department with the same programs, and hire a new set of professors, all in an hour, perhaps by signing a series of papers.
The students might complain about prefered professors being fired. But would it affect their legal rights?
I’m talking about a scenario where “eliminating a department” is nothing more than a legal fiction, a strategem to get around tenure rules, with the only real-world consequences being that undesired professors can be fired.
“The students might complain about prefered professors being fired. But would it affect their legal rights?”
AS I UNDERSTAND IT, the students would remain legacies of the old program, with “teach out” rights under it. They could *chose* to transfer to the new program, but aren’t required to and may not even be qualified to as not all their courses would transfer.
They would have no legal right to the new program, nor would the institution have any legal right to impose it on them. UMass tried this little stunt when it took over Mt. Ida College — their initial proposal for the teachout was to dump them at isolated (and inferior) UMass Dartmouth, some distance away.
Without going too deeply into the weeds, that backfired.
Which is to say, as much as a mollusk understands ballroom dancing.
He obviously understands it better than you, or you wouldn't react to his comment like such a child.
I doubt that this approach works. Tenure is granted at the level of the school / college in the university not just at the departmental level.
IANAL but it seems to me that, on its face, this would be an obvious union-busting sort of activity that would involve the NLRB. Further, most of these university unions have rules that would let the impacted, tenured faculty take the place of non-tenured instructors who would be let go in their place. I don't believe this would have the effect you're going for. This battle is also fought during union negotiations where there's often discussions about the ratio of adjunct to tenure/tenure-track faculty. If tenured faculty lose their departments, they wouldn't likely lose their jobs unless all other classes of instructors in similar fields were gone.
Those rules can be changed.
No Shawn -- don't confuse tenure and barganing unit status -- they are often concurrent but very different things.
Tenure has nothing to do with unions and hence nothing to do with the NLRB. Being in the union does -- and non-tenured faculty can be in the union. Hence a union can be used to break tenure.
I remember when Dan Patrick was a TV sports guy in Houston back in the late ‘70s and he was such an attention hog that he did at least one broadcast shirtless with his torso and face painted Columbia Blue to prove the intensity of his love for the Oilers.
That’s the kind of serious thoughtful leadership we’ve got happening in Texas these days.
The whole "protecting controversial opinion" argument is somewhat off target. If freedom to have and express such opinions is a fundamental part of the university experience, then it should apply to everyone, including non-tenured faculty and students. Tenure status should not matter.
And on the other side, being an outspoken advocate (or tiresome crank, often the same thing) is mostly a deepset personality trait that isn't turned on or off by granting/denying tenure.
However, there are reasons why Texas might think twice about doing this unilaterally:
- Making tenure is seen as a career milestone. It's something like a lawyer making partner, or an electrician making master.
- And not getting it is perceived as the opposite. A person who has failed to make tenure after (say) 7 or 8 years will have a harder time getting hired by another university if they decide to move.
- And therefore, all else being equal, even people who are confident in their ability to perform and aren't interested in shouting their politics will pick a job that leads to tenure over one that doesn't.
- If universities nationwide all did it at once, these considerations would evaporate. But if they do it solo, Texas universities will need to do something else to make their offers competitive - higher salary, lower teaching loads, more lavish facilities. All of which cost money.
How about opportunity?
The opportunity to just teach without the craziness and fascism.
If it weren't so damn hot down in Texas, I'd go.
I don’t think the craziness and fascism is the result of tenure, nor do I think it will disappear if tenure is eliminated.
Tenured faculty can’t do a whole lot except mean tweets and bad grades. The real damage – e.g. expulsions without due process, shutting down student organizations, ideological hiring, CRT loyalty oaths – come from administrators who aren’t even protected by the tenure system. Most of what Dan Patrick wants could be accomplished by simply eliminating some administrative positions. Even if the “baddies” go back to being tenured faculty, they’ll just be loudmouths spouting garbage. Part of being a college student is being able to deal with loudmouths spouting garbage.
I thought you'd already gone, you know, to shoot ILLEGAL aliens,
Another intelligent commenter.
I'm unimpressed by the cost savings of offering tenure in place of other benefits.
Getting rid of tenure won't solve the problem of an ideologically captured faculty and administration, but it won't make it harder in TX. And monetary cost (or gain) won't I think be a significant consideration.
And, addressing one of your points, if there's no tenure in TX, then counting that against TX professors is an addressable market inefficiency, so will disappear.
" But if they do it solo, Texas universities will need to do something else to make their offers competitive – higher salary, lower teaching loads, more lavish facilities. All of which cost money."
That is correct. In the science and engineering faculties the brain drain would be profound.
Says you. Based on nothing.
How many other occupations have the protection of "tenure"?
Catholic priesthood, perhaps? Don't know - lapsed Episcopalian here.
In how many other occupations do you have to move cities if you lose your job?
The alternative to tenure is University administrators getting even more power.
Prosecutor, police, judge, most people who work in government positions, and anyone who works in an industry where they only have one potential employer in their geographic area. It's not really that uncommon.
Police have infamously strong unions, as do teachers, judges often get lifetime appointments, and industries with single regional employers (large factories, docks, etc), also tend to have unions with strong job protections.
There's a clear pattern. Academic tenure is just part of the same thing except the academics are taking a bigger wage discount.
So “yes, lots of other people have to move for their professions and have come up with solutions for it.” Thank you.
If tenure and unions provide exactly the same protections, then why would it be a problem for tenure to go away? The professors could just unionize.
I’ve said it before, but while I do think there is room to look at tenure, the crowd around here who calls schools fascist indoctrination factories have done a great job disqualifying them from any kind of interesting voice in the policy discussion.
People who are hostile to the entire institution are not the people you ask about how to reform the institution.
As a policy matter, I'm not sure tenure -- or Disney being self governing -- were ever good ideas. The problem arises when they are eliminated because the professors, and Disney, are using their free speech rights in ways that politicians disapprove.
Imagine the shoe being on the other foot for a minute. I think tax exemption for churches is a really bad idea. Now, suppose I'm in charge of tax policy, and suppose I abolish it immediately after churches make a big push to ban both abortion and gay marriage, each of which I happen to favor. Even if one had nothing to do with the other, it sure would smell bad.
Ah, the smell test.
Ah yes, having to pretend we're idiots as you piss on your leg and tell us it's about reforming tenure.
It's not just "the politicians" who disapprove. It's those paying the piper who disapprove, and you are not going to win that battle for long.
I don't think it's at all clear that the voters, even in red states, are as extremist as the people currently running Texas and Florida. Don't forget, when abortion rights was on the ballot in Kansas and Kentucky, the pro-abortion side won.
You'd think Kansas/Kentucky would be encouraging people to live there, not aborting them.
Wokeness is what us actually extremist.
Wokeness is the concept that not everything is about white people, and you're right, there are some white people who find that concept extremist.
Does that include white hispanics?
What do you think?
We think you're a jackass who says, falsely, that "Wokeness is the concept that not everything is about white people" when in fact Wokeness is mostly about white people being the enemy of all that is right and proper. Does that plank in your eye make it difficult to get in and out of cars?
"disqualifying them"
Are you the decider of what views are legitimate?
The institutions are near fatally corrupt. Killing tenure, taxing their endowments and other "hostile" acts is the only way to fix them.
Apologists like you are the ones who lack an "interesting voice".
Bob,
You clearly know little if anything about major research institutions. Yet you just spout off as badly as Kirkland complaining about Christian colleges.
"major research institutions"
State universities exist to educate its citizens, research is secondary.
Meanwhile, in backwater Ohio . . .
Meanwhile, in backwater Ohio, hardly anyone is as stupid or obsessed as Artie.
Artie was banned by Prof. Volokh for making fun of conservatives -- and criticizing conservatives -- a bit too deftly for the proprietor's taste. It was a cowardly, hypocritical, partisan act that Prof. Volokh strives to ignore, even as he acts as a matador for comments containing the most vile racial, homophobic slurs and calls for violence against his political opponents, waving them through in a manner that makes his ostensible "civility standards" an obvious lie.
Artie was censored, with prejudice. I am Arthur.
Your lying never ceases.
If I were lying about Artie Ray being banned, Prof. Volokh would label me a liar. But he does not. Mostly because he admitted -- bragged out -- it, and partly because he knows I have the emails.
You need to keep your gloves up, right-wing bigots, or this isn't going to be a very sporting exchange.
Says who?! This may be your individual opinion, but it's wrong. Some state institutions are intended as graduation factories to make sure there are plenty of good employees for the state's industries and to ensure plenty of good tax revenue from those employees. Other state institutions are meant to incubate and develop new technologies into new industries and sources of revenue. See: The Bay Area for internet related industry and bio-tech industry. See also: USF Tampa for tele-medicine research. Most new technological advances are based on research conducted at universities not private research centers.
Enjoy Chick-Fil-a ? (You know you do you know you do you know you do.......) Did you know the secret recipe was developed by an Auburn University Poultry Science grad???? It's way tastier than the "Colonel's" "11 herbs and spices" (OK, do love the "Herb")
Frank
The universities have definitely become indoctrination factories. I won’t use the vastly overused word “fascist” to describe them, but poll after poll shows how scared students and profs with other than progressive opinions are to speak up.
Is tenure as it exists serving to protect unpopular opinions and research? If not, what’s the point of having it? Not pounding the table either way, just asking.
If I understand correctly, this proposal only applies to state universities, which are government institutions. As such, it doesn't "kill tenure" at any other universities. After all, what authority would the government have to dictate such matters to a private organization?
I understand the importance of "academic freedom," however, overriding that is the importance of political accountability, self-government and a republican form of government. As anyone visiting a this site should be well-aware, it is problematic, or at the very least involves trade-offs, when you have the State owning and operating large sectors of activity.
We shouldn't have armies of unfireable, unaccountable bureaucrat academics living off the taxpayer dime. And doing all kinds of outrageous and wasteful things, or at least things that people may disagree with -- all while the hardworking people who pay their salaries work 10x as hard as them in most cases, only to have their money taken to pay for these things, and yet are not even allowed to have any say in the matter. Unfortunately, legislatures and governments might do stupid things in either political direction, but again that's the tradeoff of having the government run things.
“We shouldn’t have armies of unfireable, unaccountable bureaucrat academics living off the taxpayer dime.”
No, of course, we shouldn’t. The mistake is thinking much of this is related to tenure, or will go away if it is eliminated.
– The bureaucratic positions are not tenured. Even if a tenured faculty is put in a position like dean or DEI coordinator, they hold that position at will. It’s utterly routine for a new president to replace administrators and send the incumbents back to being regular (tenured) teachers.
– To the extent they are “not fireable”, it’s because their bosses don’t want to fire them, or feel like they’d get too much political blowback if they did, or (by far the most common) they don’t want to get sued. Lawyers sue on behalf of anyone willing to pay, tenured or non-tenured, academic or non-academic.
– Tenured or not, if you have them they will be on the taxpayer’s dime.
TLDR version: If you don't want to have a DEI coordinator, stop funding DEI coordinators. Tenure isn't relevant to the question.
I was inartfully likening academics who work at government institutions to bureaucrats just because they work for the government and their positions feel kinda bureaucrat-like.
You may be right that this won't solve much of the perceived problems that some people are thinking about. However "they don't want to get sued" mostly because there are such strong legal protections with tenure. Without tenure, what basis do they have to sue? Nobody running a large organization is too worried about meritless, frivolous lawsuits. It happens, but is a minor cost of doing business.
If a state legislature decides that it's in the best interests of the state to have government-run universities and to allow for, or mandate, certain forms of tenure with strong protections for faculty, then so be it. It should be clear that they retain the ability to change the law.
What I don't like, generally speaking, and perceive some elements of here, is the tendency of government power and money to get siphoned away into various supposedly "independent" bureaucratic fiefdoms. This is anathema our constitutional structure and to the fundamental concept of self-government. Secondarily, I also don't like the political tendency to give away the farm to public employees, unions, foreign countries, and others, when it's future generations of great grandkids who have to foot the bill, and only some distant future politician who might have to face the music.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
"Without tenure, what basis do they have to sue? Nobody running a large organization is too worried about meritless, frivolous lawsuits. It happens, but is a minor cost of doing business."
Our lawyers seem concerned about it. To the extent that the first step in even reprimanding someone, much less firing them, is to go clear it with legal first.
As for the "what basis do they have" question, one case I was involved in got killed at summary judgment (IANAL, believe that's the word). But even that took a year of interviews with lawyers, depositions, producing documents, and all kinds of other crap. Why was the ex-employee willing to blow several tens of thousands on the case? Partly a chance at a jackpot settlement, the amounts requested are always ridiculous, but mostly bitterness. Don't underestimate the willingness of bitter people to blow their own resources to make you miserable.
If you don’t want to have a DEI coordinator, stop funding DEI coordinators. Tenure isn’t relevant to the question.
And the day after you stop funding DEI coordinators. the people-formerly-known-as-DEI-coordinators will be dispersed to a cross-discipline “curriculum development group” financed by the Math budget, History budget, Whatev budget.
It’s whack-a-mole. You have to use poison.
So
1. You need to appoint sane, ruthless, trustees, with a vocation for, and dedication to, the task of mole-poisoning
2. Then make sure your laws and rules permit the poisoning of moles, without restriction
3. Wait
4. Stand back and admire your new mole-free lawn
5. Readminister poison on a regular schedule
6. Should you spot any new moles beginning to march through the institution, administer an emergency poisoning
The Texas Bill falls under 2 above.
Mucking around with budgets is a fool’s errand. Take actual control and use it.
Seems right.
"It’s whack-a-mole. You have to use poison. "
Amen, amen.
Seems hard. And unpopular.
I guess that's why most folks have taken to complaining on the Internet.
Well that relying on a few deep red states to pass awful laws that through burdensome oversight, curriculum restrictions, curriculum requirements, and removing benefits, gut education in their states.
Way to go. Your culture war bullshit has as collateral damage our international competitiveness.
It's not a good bill.
But I wouldn't start catastrophizing about international competitiveness. The main effect will be that young science and engineering professors will take a $90K + path to tenure job in Colorado in preference to a $90K w/o tenure job in Texas.
The US as a whole will be just fine. And even in Texas, when we realize we're unable to fill positions, we'll start offering higher salaries and fancier lab facilities....which will outrage Bevis and ML just as much.
Nah, I’m always saying that the government should pay higher salaries, rather than making people unfireable and promising pensions which are an altogether absurd idea.
Salary and benefits are not actually interchangiable.
Of course they are. Only the ratios are in doubt.
“Pensions are an absurd idea.” Got it.
What a twit.
The government as an employer has to compensate employees in a way comparable to the group of employers it is completing against. If the employer is UT Austin, it is completing against top research universities, public and private. If they offer tenure then UTA needs to OR it offers much higher salaries on individual reviewable contracts.
I do not at all mean one bad bill will make a dent. I'm more worried about the trend.
I don't want to have a have/have-not situation when it comes to states and educational opportunities.
The UK has that; it's not good, and nigh impossible to climb out from. it'd be a 20 year process, but we could absolutely go there.
According to my state tax calculator you'd need to be paid $94,773 in Colorado to finish up with the same, after tax, as a Texan paid $90,000. Or put another way, the Texan on $90,000 takes home $3,506 pa more than the Coloradan on $90,000. (We don't need to do the California comparison. Oh, alright, it's $4,913.)
So the question becomes whether tenure is worth that $3,506 pa (net of tax) , bearing in mind that the value of tenure (a) only kicks in if you would have been fired without it and (b) if you glue yourself not merely to Colorado, but to your particular college in Colorado.
From the grubby and crudely pragmatic depths of the business world, which is my domain, I always took the view that candidates for executive jobs who wanted job protection for more than their first year were the sort of executives who were likely to turn out to be underperformers. It indicated a lack of confidence either in themselves, or in the business they were seeking to join.
Either way, worth passing on.
I don’t think most people make decisions like that.
I agree. It is seldom a cut and dry economics calculation. They may take a lower paying job for a far better retirement option. People make many judgements in many ways. They may take a job at an organization in which they have much larger access to resources for their work earlier in their career.
I've got a number of friends now law profs do the open market thing. Lots of stuff to consider, and most of it not really quantifiable.
Homo economicus we sure are not!
Seems hard.
On moles, sure.
And unpopular.
You don't get out much, do you ?
Weird no one has put in radical trustees like you say would be easy and popular.
A state government could, theoretically, kill tenure at all private institutions in the state. California, for example, mandates that the privates in Cali honor student first amendment rights.
Dartmouth v. NH was different because its charter predated the Revolution, but I'd say that any existing IHE chartered by an existing state is subject to the laws of that state. Including one hypothetically driving an Ash stake through the heart of tenure.
How about we just have that Marine from NY put Texas Tenure in a "Choke Hold"
Put all faculty senates into a choke hold....
Still not a big deal to the 99.99+% of the population that don't have tenure, or any prospect of it.
The only defense of tenure that would mean anything to the vast majority of people is that it has slowed the left's takeover of academia. In as much as that takeover is largely complete, and it also entrenches that takeover, that's not a very impressive defense.
I’m a big fan of at-will employment based on the whole consenting adult thing. But I also acknowledge that way more than the 0.01% of the population have some form of for-cause employment contract. “Tenure” vs “Non-Tenure” are just academic terminology for “for-cause” vs “at-will”.
Actually, the real defense of for-cause employment has nothing to do with academic freedom. It’s that it’s a benefit sellers of labor like to have, and thus lowers the market price in exactly the same way a 6-year lease* will be cheaper than a month-to-month rental, which in turn will be cheaper than a hotel room.
Now as the buyer, you might prefer the freedom of going day-to-day on my employment. That’s perfectly fine, but it’s also perfectly fine for me to weigh that in deciding which job to take. Might still take the at-will job, but it would be because the work is better or the pay is higher. So Texas will need to make the job sweeter or pay me more.
*Tenured faculty at Texas state colleges get performance reviewed annually for pay increases, but every six years there's a review that can result in termination due to weak performance even without specific wrongdoing.
Nothing in your comment addresses the Long March Through the Institutions aspect of existing reality.
Next to that the salary savings from providing tenure -- if any -- are chump change.
Rough numbers for engineering and hard-science: tenure-track $90K. Non-tenured industry job: $130K. But it's not really about saving money, it's that given two jobs in two different states, people will take the one with the cushier contract and tenure makes for a cushier contract. Competitive advantage.
I’ve got a question for you: what percent of class time do think the median engineering professor spends on DEI/CRT/systemic racism/etc? I’ll give you the answer: zero. Literally zero.
What you’re really angry about is that we don’t spend any time condemning that stuff either.
No. I don't give a damn if the median engineering professor spends no time on DEI/CRT/systemic racism. My objection is to DEL-poisoned hiring decisions. Where have I said otherwise?
And, no one is sacrificing $130k/yr industry jobs to get $90k/yr tenure track jobs in order to get on a tenure track. Do you really believe such obvious nonsense?
The comparison to “for-cause” contracts is the right way to think about this, but note that there are endlessly variable possible terms of a “for-cause” employment contract. It seems like maybe the “tenure system” is a bit on the strong side.
It’s a different situation when you are dealing with the government, as I suggested above. A private business will (barring government bailouts) go bankrupt if its liabilities start to exceed its income and assets. A deadweight, overpaid workforce is sure to bring about such a situation. But with the government, the opposite happens. The deadweight, overpaid workforce becomes a highly motivated, fiercely loyal group of voters and advocates and ideological shock troops, more highly motivated than any other voter, and is a great asset to the politician rather than a liability. Meanwhile the politician faces very little negative consequence, rather than bankruptcy, and little constraint with free flowing money, money printing and debt.
You're right that state universities face much less survival-of-the-fittest pressure than a business. And there is a lot of deadweight.
But again, I'd say the biggest culprit for the deadweight is not tenure, it's federal student loans and grants. Only about 30% of our money is direct state payments. The rest is tuition, and we can harvest *way* more tuition than the free market would normally support, because students are "spending" federal money rather than their own money.
Preaching to the choir here. The federal government gives trillions of dollars in the guise of "student loans" and they should just stop. That's the biggest issue and biggest cause of all problems with higher ed.
I'd be interested in your thoughts on federal grant reform. Are you talking research grants? indirect cost, or direct cost student support, or some other area?
There has never been a formal determination that promise of life payment to civil servants, such as "faculty" of public universities, is lawful; in fact, the "question whether one generation of men has a right to bind another, seems never to have been started either on [the European or American] side of the water" and there is no apparent way to bind future voters to the promises of past voters.
"Suppose Louis XV and his cotemporary generation had said to the money-lenders of Genoa, 'Give us money that we may eat, drink, and be merry in our day; and on condition you will demand no interest till the end of 19 years you shall then for ever after receive an annual interest of 12⅝ per cent.' The money is lent on these conditions, is divided among the living, eaten, drank, and squandered. Would the present generation be obliged to apply the produce of the earth and of their labour to replace their dissipations? Not at all."
Public university tenue is a contrivance of the same minds which honestly believed in the wisdom of eugenics: like eugenics, tenure should be allowed to quietly die in the restful arms of history.
To eliminate "political meddling with universities," you will need to transfer the public universities to the private sector.
Outside of Hillsdale and a few other outliers there is no private sector in the University biz.
Well, Illinois has responded to Justice Barrett.
RESPONSE IN OPPOSITION TO EMERGENCY APPLICATION FOR INJUNCTION PENDING APPELLATE REVIEW
Basically, they claim that the chance that their law will be upheld on review isn't mathematically zero, so it shouldn't be enjoined. I don't think that's how it works...
We don't need no stinkin' SC decisions.
I would support tenure for: * STEM and related fields; and * based on replicated research (if your research is so good, why can’t anyone replicate it??); Or in the case of Mathematics proven theorems that contribute to advancement.
The theory that professors are self serving do-gooders devoted to knowledge is based on pony and unicorn adventures. If you have won the Nobel prize, solved Fermat’s last theorem, unearthed mathematical chaos and randomness in fractals … sure, tenure. Mandelbrot gets tenure. Dr. R. A. Ndom in the Art History Dept, doesnt.
It should be the exception, for exceptional performance, not the rule.
Next up: Public sector unions.
Mostly off topic, but it does involve the Texas legislature, so I’ll post it for shits and giggles:
https://abc13.com/bryan-slaton-resigns-texas-house-representative-resignation-inappropriate-sexual-relationship-accused-of-giving-19-year-old-alcohol/13224161/
For all those defenders of Mr “I did not have sec with that woman” and of Mr “grab ‘em by the pussy” here is an example of what should happen to these arrogant selfish horndogs. Hope his wife cuts his balls off during the divorce.
"Hope his wife cuts his balls off during the divorce."
Figuratively, right?
How long do right-winges figure Prof. Volokh would last at UCLA without tenure?
How difficult would it be to write the memo that justified separation on the vile racial slurs -- in and out of the classroom -- alone? It might take all of two paragraphs.
Maybe a disaffected right-winger would be happier at Liberty anyway.
Perhaps we should have the same regard for University professors as university professors had for the rest of us during the pandemic.
I don’t remember too many university professors arguing for restaurant workers to be allowed to work in any meaningful way.
Why should university professors be treated better than they treat others?
Now add public school teachers.
Add any adults. Why should any adults be treated especially well when they’ve treated others poorly and show no remorse for doing it?
I don’t remember any restaurant workers arguing for schools to reopen, so screw them too!
I don't remember what you argued for, so screw you as well.
Oh no, restaurant workers' non-existent tenure protections!!!!!
Restaurant workers already got screwed while University professors sat at home never missing a paycheck.
There might be a lesson concerning education "hidden" in there . . .
I think you'd find that most of the "liberal" professors that y'all like to complain about would be supportive of food service employees unionizing.
Tenure is an obsolete concept that is used by passive aggressive faculty to try to avoid accountability, and to eliminate Assistant Professors who threaten the weak egos of tenured colleagues by offering ideas that challenge those peers. In many states, it is a pure fiction because of laws requiring "at-will" employment of public university employees (Indiana, for example). It has offered little protection to faculty who challenge the narratives of the LEFT - look at how Marquette honored John Adams' tenure, or how Princeton treated Jonathan Katz. It didn't protect Daniel Pollack-Pelzner at Linfield, or Tim Boudreau at Central Michigan. How much did it help Bryan J. Pesta at Clevela On nd State after he dared publish research linking a gene to intelligence? Tenure didn't protect Frances Widdowson at Mount Royal University after she criticized the BLM movement. Look at how UNC treated Mike Adams - who twice won a faculty member of the year award, but was driven out of the school and into suicide by faculty and administrators offended by his outspoken conservative views.
My preferred solution (for Texas) is about what the revised bill does:
Keep the word “tenure” and simply reduce the level of job protection associated with it to whatever the legislature thinks is appropriate.
If you told us we could now be fired if we did a struggle session in math class, or if we failed to do enough meaningful research and publication, or if our student evaluations were too low, a lot of us would be happy to accept such conditions, since that’s what we expected anyway.
Also, we’d be happily rid of the ones who didn’t like it, since by acting insufferably entitled they are ruining it for all of us. I can tell you at the Texas branch campuses right now there is a lot of anger at those 40 UT Austin faculty for getting in Patrick’s face with their resolution. We spend our days teaching regular classes and they get us in trouble with their activism, and make low-information people think we do that stuff day and night when most of us literally do none of it at all.
The issue with the word tenure is that it’s got a lot of other stuff associated with it besides the job security. Take it away all at once nationwide, fine. If you do it only in Texas, people from out of state will assume they can’t lead a project, teach graduate level courses, make curriculum decisions, etc because those things are traditionally reserved for those on the tenure path.
The revised bill has some quite vague language. You seem quite trusting of the administration to not abuse this broad authority.
I'm not a professor, but I've heard stories of some pretty madhouse Deans.
Finally, while I do relate to not liking folks who rock the boat, the fact that you feel like you need to keep your heads collectively down and are mad at any who do not seems a bad sign for how free you feel.
Just like freedom of speech is most tested by the a-holes among us, if your freedom is only being free to do exactly what your job requires, that's not all that free actually.
Interesting point about tenure being a nationwide credential, effectively.
Why don't the tenure-hating, all-talk fans of this white, male, right-wing blog call upon the Volokh Conspirators to disclaim tenure?
Because unilateral disarmament is a stupid Lefty idea, moron.
That Oakland A's broadcaster sure didn't have no "Tenure" make one little slip up, say "ger" instead of "gro" and now you're just this side of Bull Connor (DemoKKKrat BTW)
Didn't some Sports-babe make the same mistake a few months ago, saying "N-word" Bockers instead of "Knicker" Bockers,
"Knicker" it's a dangerous word, try saying it without sounding like you're saying the "other" word (Great "Curb your Enthusiasm" episode when Larry D. was complaining about some race-ist using the N-word, but says it himself, just as an N-word walks by...)
Frank
No need to restrain yourself in a politically correct manner at this blog . . . the proprietor welcomes, encourages, and habitually engages in the publication of a vile racial slur.
The Rev. Costco celebrates the resurgence of vinyl by imitating a broken record.
The broken record at this block is a string of vile racial slurs . . . anyone care to guess how many different discussions at this blog have included publication of at least one vile racial slur during the first four months of this year?
When the Volokh Conspiracy stops habitually publishing vile racial slurs and ardently courting an audience that revels in bigotry, I will stop describing this blog's bigotry.
Have you ever watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgc_LRjlbTU ?
Spam.
It’ll leave Texas colleges and universities to fall down the ranks of educational institutions in the US and, in a few cases, the world is what it’ll leave.
Bullshit.
Seems like a blog commentariat full of would-be meritocrats would not struggle so much over tenure. The problem is that meritocracy doesn’t actually work very well if you try to practice it in a populist democracy.
On the basis of pure meritocracy, tenure is a great idea. But you have to understand that it relies on a notion that almost all the good to be got from it will be delivered by a tiny fraction of the tenured—a fraction whose identities will be unpredictable at the time of the tenure grant. Those will turn out to make indispensably valuable contributions because tenure let them do it. Others among the tenured will comprise a class judged meritorious, but turn out less productive in practice. That is unavoidable. It is the way the world works. It has built into it the risk that to get extremely valuable but unlikely returns, you have to invest heavily to multiply chances for success.
On the downside, that kind of utilitarian insight into why tenure is worth it runs up against the envy of people from whom meritocracy demands self-effacement—their investment in meritocracy is to agree that they are less meritorious, and hence willing to live comfortably while entitled to less preferments of all kinds than the meritorious are. Meritocracy may deliver benefits the less-meritorious could not get and enjoy otherwise. But they will always see others judged more-meritorious who are not in fact delivering much to benefit them, or maybe not delivering anything.
That makes the less-meritorious itch, and writhe with envy. The Achilles heel of meritocracy is that it demands that the less-meritorious agree that inferior status for them is justified, and benefits them. And they have to be willing to stick to that while a minority judged more-meritorious gets treated better. It is easy to see why it is hard to make that work in a populist-trending democracy.
What a load of blah-blah.
People who don't like meritocracy are those who are good enough to know that they will always fall short and are envious of those who do better.
Careless thinkers overlook that meritocracy as practiced privately is not a rival of democracy, but a kind of localized replacement for it. The same applies if advocates presume to impose meritocracy publicly, but then localization is gone.
.
No, queenie, I *do* know what I'm talking about -- and suspect you'd be one of the first ones to go.
Queenie, when was the last time the left defended ideas on merit instead of mob action?
That is the whole idea - and it's not working. All it did was push the point of conformity forward to the granting of tenure. In other words, the only ones who can effectively get tenure are now those in favor with administrators.
I'm with dwb - let it die. It was useful in it's day but that was several centuries ago. The value that tenure used to ensure has been almost entirely supplanted by civil rights laws and what remains can be much more easily managed via employment contracts.
It is far more than that (at least in major research universities). Tenure allows a faculty member to move his/her research into entirely new areas, to conduct research with a high risk of not paying off, to open new fields of inquiry, to conduct interdisciplinary research,
How many other occupations have the protection of “tenure”?
Why should "the discovery and teaching of knowledge" be considered any more special than anything else?
I didn't feel a whole lot more free when I got tenure. I always figured if an administrator was fair minded they wouldn't fire me before I got tenure.
Conversely, if they were unethical enough to fire me merely for an opinion they'd be unethical enough to create a false reason. And if they were going to make something up anyway, they could easily pick something off the list of reasons to fire tenured faculty.
Where I work, more tenured faculty than non-tenured faculty get outright fired. I'll admit that's because non-tenured faculty are better at getting the hint and "resigning" while tenured people have a delusion they can't get fired up until the registered letter and the campus police arrive. But that's the point: the idea that tenured people can't get fired is nonsense.
I have asked a question which you can't or refuse to answer.
How many other occupations have the protection of “tenure”?
"Tenure" = "for cause employment contract".
So the answer is:
Police officers, judges, military personnel, most civil service employees, most public school teachers. Everyone who has a union job or is non-union but works for a unionized company. Everyone who has a term contract employment of any kind.
In addition, effectively everyone who has some kind of payout clause has the equivalent of tenure protection since they get paid anyway even if they're "fired": people who are partners in a business, athletic coaches at the NCAA or professional levels, most media celebrities, high level executives.
Either give an example of another occupation with similar protection or admit to knowing of none.
How many other occupations have the protection of “tenure”?
Thank you. Not quite the same but sort of a de facto tenure.
I would disagree with the statement that tenure is functionally the same as a for-cause employment contract. If that's all it was, there wouldn't be nearly so much furor around its proposed abolition - 'tenure' would simply be replaced with explicit contracts.
That said, I am very hard pressed to explain what tenure does provide that a for-cause employment contract doesn't.
You're incorrect.
Tenure is NOT a simple "for cause" contract.
While getting research grants, doing research and publishing are expected at major research universities, a tenured faculty member could stop all research and publishing, and become a novelist. As long as his/her assigned teaching assignments are carried out, they are safe.
As usual revert to ad hominem. Seem ducksalad below had not problem with an answer and though I might disagree with him, he provided examples.
it's not even "past"
I have seen no evidence that tenure was necessary, or even all that important, in 1940.
Seems like Reason has been eating some comments lately. I posted a reply but it won’t publish. Edit: worked this time below.
indoctrination, noun
the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically
ARCHAIC teaching; instruction
According to the former definition, I would disagree with indoctrination. The “archaic” definition is OK.
The part of my comment that you quoted is merely acknowledging that people have different opinions about what is outrageous or wasteful, or right and wrong. They have the right to those opinions, and if they are citizens in a system of self-government then they have the right to influence government policy based on those opinions. If you disagree with any of this then the indoctrinator might be you.
'Maybe the state shouldn’t run institutions with the mission of discovering and teaching knowledge. But if the state is going to do something it should do it well."
Today, I have to agree with you throughout the entire thread.
Look, soldiers got VA care when the general population basically DIDN'T get medical care, and soldiers had an understandably disproportionate need for some kinds of medical care. These days, they'd actually better off if you shut down the VA and just gave them good health coverage in the regular system.
"Without tenure it’s not going to be the liberal faculty that liberal administrators get rid of, it’ll be the minority viewpoint faculty!"
As if the "protections" are going to "minority viewpoint faculty".
BB already observed, "In as much as that takeover is largely complete, and it also entrenches that takeover, that’s not a very impressive defense." Why are you pretending he hasn't?
Oh, yeah, you're a lying dishonest nitwit. There's that.
How about the Falcons? Damn Tom Brady!!!!!!
To be called a dolt by a dolt who refuses to answer simple questions because he can't is like being called a racist by one. A cause for laughter.
The dolt won't be able to provide examples of tenure actually advancing "the discovery and teaching of knowledge" either.
Cue Reelin' in the years:
You been tellin' me you're a genius
Since you were seventeen
In all the time I've known you
I still don't know what you mean
The weekend at the college
Didn't turn out like you planned
The things that pass for knowledge
I can't understand
@Queenie: In other words you've got nothing. Just as I said.
The "speech protections" usually only work to give licence to the Woke-approved to get away with obnoxious lunacy.
I respectfully disagree, Queen. It's a different set of restrictions. I'm tenured and know what can get me fired.
Calling a student or a colleague "stupid" to their face would do it, if they complained and I refused to apologize, or if I did it again after being written up. Judges and cops do that all the time. I've certainly had a cop call me stupid to my face (he was right).
Judges do need to refrain from openly taking political positions, while faculty can do that. However, outside of social sciences where it's unavoidable to have the discussion or even built into the premises of the field, most of refrain just because it's distracting and causes you to lose the confidence of some students.
-
According to Queenie your mask has slipped and your only objection to uncritical indoctrination is that it's not in your beliefs.
That of course entirely ignores the point you actually made about the inevitability and righteousness of the persons paying the piper calling the tune.
Why not grow a pair and stop pretending that you're engaged with a reasonable interlocutor. You're not.
I have no problem not pretending that I'm engaged with a reasonable interlocutor. That's easy, doesn't seem to require growing a pair.
To assume reasonableness and good faith is harder, and is good manners I suppose. Once that presumption is rebutted, then you are pretending. And the point of pretending, as well as steelmanning arguments generally, I thought was to try and be persuasive, just for fun I guess or on the off-chance someone else might be fair minded or interested in evaluating arguments or interested in the truth. But yeah I frequently don't do so.
"You want instruction in what’s popular"
No, just saying if you accept the premise of self-government and a republic and a democracy, then the constituents of a government decide what the government does through their elected representatives.
Ideally of course what's right and best will be popular, and good people get elected.
That's correct
575,302,685 news stories.
They’re all over the place. It’s at least a weekly thing now, if not sooner.
Oh, and public behavior of recent graduates. That too.
Did it ever occur to either of you that the unions (and the litigation) will very quickly define all of these terms quite well?
I can cite statistics of police protecting people. Can you cite ONCE when tenure protected a conservative from a mob.
I can cite cops IN JAIL for misconduct, can you cite professors in jail for misconduct?
TO WASTE LOTS OF TAXPAYER MONEY WITH TOTAL IMPUNITY....
Do your research on your own time and dime, teach on ours...
No, and I agree that tenure definitely slowed down the purge; It had to primarily be a purge by attrition. But the purge is still largely complete at this point, so at this point tenure is mostly protecting the left, not the residue of right-wingers.
Since the people in a position to do the firing are the people responsible for the purge, removal of tenure would just let them finish the job. Without changing things on the administrative end, there's no restoring ideological diversity to academia. This is mostly a side-show until they can reform the university administrations.
At this point what needs to be done is to deprive those currently in a position to hire and fire based on Lefty fringe ideology of the power to do so. Let's have the fight over Wax, etc., now, and win it. As seems to be underway in TX.
Somewhat true, but there is a catch, and it’s in that word “assigned”.
Where I work (a not-so-prestigious Texas public university), tenured faculty get reviewed every six years on teaching, research, and professional service. An instructor without tenure would typically teach 8-10 courses per year. A tenured professor would typically publish some papers, participate in some externally funded research, and teach 4-6 courses per year.
This is based on the tenured professor requesting that 40-60% of their time is teaching and 40-60% is teaching/service. They can be fired for cause if they don’t show results commensurate with the percentage time requested. One class taught with decent student evaulations equals 10%.
So what if the tenured person stops publishing and decides to write novels instead? You are absolutely correct that they are not fired just for that decision. But to not get fired after annual evaluation and six-year reviews they need to request 80-100% teaching, and thus teach 8-10 courses per year, and the evaluation standards for their teaching are the same used for non-tenured faculty. Also, they no longer have justification to teach high-level research oriented-course, and will often get assigned 8-10 sections of Whatever 101 with a requirement to use a standard syllabus that leaves little discretion for doing CRT, unless they happen to be in a “Studies” department.
Having said that, it is true that quite a few do burn out on research and take that all-teaching option. So you are right. But one shouldn’t have the impression they can just stop doing research and spend the time writing novels instead.
This is ignorant as fuck.
We teach by doing research. Grad students and post docs get their professional development by doing research in professor's labs - that's how we teach.
Worldwide, this is the case. Whatever you do, it is outside of scientific education.
LOL... if volume was all it took to make things true, Bat Boy would be real.
The news fallacy: assuming that news stories are about everyday occurrences, while things that aren't in the news don't happen much.
Bevis, if a math prof goes to class and teaches math, there is no news story, and it happens several tens of thousands of times every day. If a math prof goes and holds a struggle session about racism instead - which does happen, perhaps 1/10000th as often - Campus Reform will report it.
And rightly so, but you may have drawn the wrong conclusion about what happens in the typical math class.
Now your point about recent graduates, well, that's different. I can only say that they come in somewhat pre-indoctrinated from K-12.
Lol. It’s not as if there are several thousand videos and pictures. And written documents.
It takes real commitment to your dogma to deny something that everyone sees every day.
criminal conduct. You can cite cops in jail for criminal conduct.
If someone (anyone) was in jail for merely misconduct, that would be a breach of justice.
Oh Wikipedia! that's reliable
OK, I get Professor Glockenspiel might "Attenuate" a Virus to be more lethal, but what "Research" do Sociology Majors do?? And most Science PhD's will admit their research is bullshit when you get a few drinks in them.
Nitrous Oxide makes you sleepy, can cause diffusion hypoxia (wasn't research that discovered that, but patients coding), and while not combustible itself will accelerate an airway fire (fire in your Trachea? not a good thing, don't need research to know that)
Frank
Why would you expect any better from Mr Ed?
Haha. Fair. It's not like I'm disappointed by Ed these days. Indeed, since the machine gun the illegals, he hardly shocks anymore.
But some around here take him as though he knows something.
Well, Non Dico, consider this:
Alpha university has 50 professors who teach 100% of the time and do research on their own time.
Bravo university has 100 professors who teach 50% of the time — and do research 50% of the time.
Charlie university has 200 professors who teach 25% of the time -- and do research 75% of the time.
All three schools have the same number of students, and all faculty are funded through tuition. (Alpha thus costs way less.)
Which school would you send Little Dico to? Remember that all you care about is him being taught, and that you're not independently wealthy.
Yeah, the worst ones. Do you have a point?
Which is why it's step 2, coming after step 1.
I'm not sure that particular analogy is a particularly good one, since roughly half the population is still required to register for the draft, and the VA was created when most of its customer base was composed of draftees from WW1.
But I'm sure you could think of another, more apt, analogy for the sort of benefit in question - ie conferred on a narrow class of public employees, which is not generally available to private sector employees, of which the general public nevertheless enthusiastically approves and is happy to pay for. My imagination has currently deserted me, but I'm sure there's something.
The majority (ie of faculty) are not the ones with hiring and firing power. Tenure protects individual members of faculty from the administrators.
Trustees are not administrators.
Tenure was created around 1940. The question here is should it be continued. The question of should VA care be continued is analogous.
y good one, since roughly half the population is still required to register for the draft, and the VA was created when most of its customer base was composed of draftees from WW1.
A lot of the population goes to University, it's to their benefit that their teachers have the protection of tenure.
But I’m sure you could think of another, more apt, analogy for the sort of benefit in question – ie conferred on a narrow class of public employees, which is not generally available to private sector employees, of which the general public nevertheless enthusiastically approves and is happy to pay for. My imagination has currently deserted me, but I’m sure there’s something.
It has to do with the nature of the labour market, when the employer has a local monopoly the employees need more rights to compensate.
A good comparison is pro-sports. Even very conservative fans rarely object to player unions because they recognize that players don't really have the option of seeking out a competing league. And one of the outcomes of those unions is contracts that are extremely hard to terminate, ie, tenure.
Actually, departments and then schools have lots of say in hiring and promotion. And do you think administrators come from the unpopular minority of faculty?
Why do we use statistics when we could just as bevis’ incredible lotsa anecdote to truth pipeline?
One hopes that the administrators serve at the trustees will.
1. There never was a time when tenure was even conceivably relevant to the vast majority of the population. Not so with the VA.
2. As Brett said, there is in any case no good reason to continue with the VA.
The administrators will be imposed by the trustees against the will of the majority of faculty.
Because STEM does stuff that's useful, and thus should be encouraged. Duh.
The state will only help you if you are useful to it as Brett defines useful.
All good policies have an ROI, after all.
Yep. This will be weaponized against conservatives immediately, with real and imagined cases of non-conformity to the new Jacobin speech codes and public avowals of dogma, and with false accusations of (inchoate) ‘harm’ caused to students or fellow faculty, etc.
Further, those states which aim to eradicate tenure won’t REALLY get rid of DEI, even if they vote to ban officers serving in such roles or diversity statements for job applications.
You could see the latter as evidence of the legislators’ short-sightedness, or as a function of their mere pandering to voters by offering superficial, inadequate responses to the universities’ totalitarian developments.
I don’t see it as either. Instead, it serves as evidence that the GOP (like its ‘rival’ party) isn’t at all what it claims to be, that this is just political theatre for the masses, and that this form of politics really comes from the top.
No one can discern a point in your vomit when you don't have one.
Going through life impervious to reality as you do it would be as impossible to explain that to you as the color blue to someone who has never had eyes.
He didn't, you did.
Spouting baseless garbage like you do isn't "discussion".
I made a relevant factual claim. That's not "an editorial". That's a contribution to an actual discussion, which I understand is to you as garlic to a vampire.
People who think that is what is going on are no loss.
I don't think the Wokeists shouting down that judge at Stanford under the leadership of that DEI carbuncle were cutting their math classes.
If it isn't monotonic there must be a Lefty equivalent of FIRE whose list we could compare FIRE's to.
Link?
Yes, let's not believe our lying eyes.
The presumption was already refuted by the reply you got. At which point "good manners" ceases being a virtue and you just look weak and obfuscating, no matter that you imagine you are doing hard work.
Yeah, I already quoted that claim of yours back to “phony bologna” M L. Whether I'm convincing him to treat you like the shit you are is what remains to be seen.
You're motivated to, anyway. It's your rice bowl at stake, evidently.
Way to deflect.
Nah, actually that's obviously stupid.
Yeah, the degree of dependence is exactly the same.
OK, got me going -- what ignites an airway fire?!?
FIRE also supports the left -- on the few occasions when the left has problems.
There are enough bigots remaining in modern America to generate this blog. There are not enough bigots left in America to win a culture war.
Carry on, clingers. But only so far as your betters permit. That is the modern American way.
Not all teaching is research, but all research is teaching.
No it’s to their teachers’ benefit to have tenure. You are confusing a benefit to employees with a benefit to customers.
Your pro sports example fails - well it doesn’t really make it to the starting block - because unless we’ve suddenly become the Soviet Union - pro sports is not a government undertaking.
And in any event while sports players don’t have the opportunity to move to a different league, cos there’s only one league, academics have a choice of hundreds or thousands of different colleges, never mind research labs in the corporate sector.
And finally I don’t recall ever having had a conversation with a sports fan about the benefits of player unions. “It’s great that they have a union so they can earn 35 times as much as me, rather than just 25, and so my ticket price is 40 percent higher than it would otherwise be !”
Said one sports fan to another, never.
No it’s to their teachers’ benefit to have tenure. You are confusing a benefit to employees with a benefit to customers.
It makes Education more affordable since teachers work below-market.
And it improves the quality of the institutions since it enables the teachers to push back against administrators.
Remember that part. Who are the administrators? Folks appointed by the board, political folks and people with connections who often have less stake in the institution than the teaching staff. Tenure hands political power to people who care about the institution.
And in any event while sports players don’t have the opportunity to move to a different league, cos there’s only one league, academics have a choice of hundreds or thousands of different colleges, never mind research labs in the corporate sector.
Ok, personal anecdote. My spouse works at a small University, the nature of the job market means to change institutions means changing cities, possibly even countries.
Now not only does the school pay very poorly, but despite being one of the top faculty at the school they are also one of the lowest paid. This is because she didn't negotiate the initial low ball offer.
She naturally asked for a raise, and in the private sector she would have gotten one since they'd be worried about her jumping to a new job in the same city.
But because she's my spouse and now has community ties they realize it's very difficult for her to relocate, so no raise.
Of course, University leadership has also made the atmosphere extremely toxic with actions that would have gotten them tossed out of any other organization.
It's gotten to the point where we are considering relocating, a move that will harm my career, because I don't feel comfortable forcing her to stay in that environment.
So yeah, the University labour market is not like other jobs. And while tenure helps it alone is not sufficient to correct the situation.
Taking away tenure in Texas would likely make the small time autocrats in the leadership of small Universities even more abusive.
The same thing could happen in my job, since I'm a prosecutor and have to move to find work as well. That's a consequence of me working in a sector that is so geographically distributed that I'd have to move to work. That's not a reason I need to be guaranteed special privileges so I can't be fired. I chose my profession. I accept the consequences of it. A lot of people have a hard time changing jobs. Teachers are not unique in that, no matter how hard you try to pretend they are.
You think the 40 idiots aren't a problem, but that just makes you part of the problem to be solved with firings.
That might be more plausible (though still twisted) if this post weren't about the idiot Lefty side taking a L.
Then count them up.
You'd have to move to find work as a prosecutor, but not to find work as a lawyer.
Not to mention the other part where academics are expected to push intellectual boundaries. That kind of exploration also requires extra protection.