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Scalia Speaks about Clinton v. Jones in the JPS Papers
Justice Stevens rejected most Justice Scalia's revisions.
After Justice Scalia's death, I mourned not only his passing, but the fact that we would no longer have any new Scalia writings. To this day, no one on the Court can hold a candle to Scalia's writing. Thankfully, the release of Justice Stevens's papers has given us new insights into Scalia's prime-time on the Court. CNN shared a four-page memo that Scalia wrote to the conference concerning Clinton v. Jones. This important case held that President Clinton was not immune from civil litigation for acts that arose before he became president. Justice Stevens wrote the majority opinion for a unanimous Court.
Clinton v. Jones was argued on January 13, 1997. The memorandum was circulated on April 4, 1997. If I had to guess, Justice Stevens's draft majority opinion was circulated at some point in March. CNN did not share the draft opinion, though the structure seems to have changed. Scalia suggests that the opinion concluded with Part VI. But the published opinion has eight parts. It is possible to compare Scalia's suggested edits, with the final version, to see whether Stevens adopted those revisions. Here are nine highlights.
First, Scalia objected to the final paragraph of the introductory paragraph:
The introductory paragraph ends: "Despite the force of the arguments supporting the President's submissions, we conclude that they must be rejected." I happen to think there is not much force to those arguments, but that is just a secondary objection. The principal objection is this: We do not normally announce the relative strength of the arguments our opinions reject, and here there is special reason not to do so. Youngstown and United States v. Nixon were equivalently political cases. In neither of them does our opinion contain any aside about how reasonable the President's position was. We should do the same here.
Stevens ignored that revision. His introductory paragraph concluded with that same line:
Despite the force of the arguments supporting the President's submissions, we conclude that they must be rejected.
Second, Scalia objected to the first paragraph of Part V:
The other point at which I get the uneasy feeling we are flakking for the White House is in the first paragraph of Part V, which begins with the assertion that the President has "advanced a powerful argument" supporting his immunity, and then goes on to explain, quite gratuitously, that the President is not claiming royal prerogatives, or asserting that he "is in any sense 'above the law."' Royal prerogatives vel non is a point of law, I suppose, but whether the assertion of any form of presidential immunity amounts to a contention that the President is "above the law" is preeminently a matter of opinion, and we can let the editorial writers argue about it. I think we perform an inappropriately political function in taking a position on the point. I suggest saying, in the last sentence of the first paragraph, simply "We conclude that the President's arguments must be rejected." In Part V, I propose dropping the word "powerful" in the first sentence, and deleting the remainder of the paragraph, except the last sentence, which I would introduce somewhat differently: "He contends that his claim is supported by the character of the office that was created by Article II of the Constitution, and by separation of powers principles, etc."
The first paragraph of Part VI uses slightly-toned down language, but makes the same point about "above the law." Stevens changed "powerful argument" to "strongest argument."
Petitioner's strongest argument supporting his immunity claim is based on the text and structure of the Constitution. He does not contend that the occupant of the Office of the President is "above the law," in the sense that his conduct is entirely immune from judicial scrutiny
Other than changing "powerful" to "strongest," Stevens seemed to disregard the proposed revisions.
I am very confused by CNN's commentary here. Devon Cole wrote:
Scalia urged Stevens to cut from early drafts references to "the force of the arguments" made by Clinton's attorneys, as well as a part where the liberal justice writes that the then-president "advanced a powerful argument supporting this immunity claim that is based on the text and structure of the Constitution." The latter sentiment, Scalia wrote, gave him "the uneasy feeling we are flakking for the White House." Before Stevens could respond in full to Scalia's concerns, at least one other member of the court spoke up in support of the suggestions: Justice Anthony Kennedy. "I think Nino's reading of the opinion is valuable and insightful. I endorse all his comments and hope you can accept them," Kennedy said in a note to Stevens. Stevens did eventually accept the changes, and he conceded to Scalia in a response memo that he might have taken some liberties in his early drafts.
The phrase about "force of the arguments" remains in the opinion. And "powerful" was changed to "strongest." It is misleading to say Stevens accepted those changes. Joan Biskupic also seems to have misread the import of Justice O'Connor's memo in Bush v. Gore. O'Connor basically wrote what would become the Rehnquist concurrence, but later O'Connor ultimately joined Kennedy's more moderate opinion based on the Equal Protection Clause. Derek Mueller makes this point persuasively. I know there is a rush to publish quickly, but these articles were not done well. The Stevens papers are not going anywhere. They can be mined over time.
Back to Clinton. Third, Justice Scalia objected to a footnote that cited an academic amicus brief. His criticism is sharp.
On page 4, I strongly dissent from footnote 4, the encomium to the litigating professoriate. I did not find that their briefs added much substance to what was already in the scholarly literature, and I frankly doubt that was the purpose. Sign-on, multiple-professor amicus briefs in a case such as this are in my view a political rather than an academic exercise; partisanship, and yes, even hopes for preferment, play a part. I did not sign on to such briefs myself in the days when I was a tenured academic, and I object to our applauding them here.
Bravo. The criticism of scholarly amicus briefs has gained traction in the past decade. I'm glad Scalia was ahead of the curve way back in 1997.
Justice Stevens did, in fact, delete the "encomium to the litigating professoriate." This lovely turn of phrase reminds me of a barb Scalia unloaded on Alan Gura during argument in McDonald v. Chicago, concerning the Privileges or Immunities Clause
Antonin Scalia: And if the answer is no, why are you asking us to overrule 150, 140 years of prior law, when -- when you can reach your result under substantive due -- I mean, you know, unless you're bucking for a -- a place on some law school faculty--
[Laughter]
Alan Gura: --No. I have left law school some time ago, and this is not an attempt to -- to return.
Antonin Scalia: Well, I mean, what you argue is the darling of the professoriate, for sure, but it's also contrary to 140 years of our jurisprudence.
Scalia's wit came through, whether in a prepared memo or an ad-libbed comment from the bench.
And for those curious, the law professor amicus brief he mentioned was prepared by Professors Pam Karlan and John Jeffries, both at UVA at the time. The brief was signed by 16 professors, including Akhil Amar, Richard Fallon, Dan Farber, Phil Frickey, Sandy Levinson, Judith Resnick, Kathleen Sullivan, and Laurence Tribe. Speaking of Tribe…
Fourth, Justice Scalia objected to a footnote that cited Professor Tribe's treatise.
For a different reason, I object (less strenuously) to the academic citation (with quotation) in footnote 12 on page 9. Does the Supreme Court of the United States have to rely upon Prof. Tribe for such an obvious proposition, set forth so clearly in its cases? Are we promoting his book?
Scalia's less vigorous dissent didn't work here, as Footnote 12 did in fact cite Tribe for a very "obvious proposition."
Because the Supremacy Clause makes federal law "the supreme Law of the Land," Art. VI, cl. 2, any direct control by a state court over the President, who has principal responsibility to ensure that those laws are "faithfully executed," Art. II, § 3, may implicate concerns that are quite different from the interbranch separation-of-powers questions addressed here. Cf., e.g., Hancock v. Train, 426 U.S. 167, 178–179, 96 S.Ct. 2006, 2012–2013, 48 L.Ed.2d 555 (1976); Mayo v. United States, 319 U.S. 441, 445, 63 S.Ct. 1137, 1139–1140, 87 L.Ed. 1504 (1943). See L. Tribe, American Constitutional Law 513 (2d ed.1988) ("[A]bsent explicit congressional consent no state may command federal officials … to take action in derogation of their … federal responsibilities").
Fifth, Scalia objected that the opinion left open the question whether a state court could compel the President's attendance at a hearing:
I am glad that the opinion makes clear (at page 9) that we are not addressing the question whether a court may compel the attendance of the President at any specific time or place. I agree with Sandra that a court could not take that step. I am concerned, however, that the way in which Part V of the opinion frames the President's argument, and our response to it, suggests an answer to the left-open question. The President's argument is introduced as follows (page 13): "[P]etitioner contends that he occupies a unique office with powers and responsibilities so vast and important that the public interest demands he be constantly available to discharge his duties and to deal with unanticipated emergencies that may arise at any moment." (Emphasis added.) . . . . (a) In the second paragraph on page 13 (which introduces the President's argument), replace "he be constantly available to discharge his duties and to deal with unanticipated emergencies that may arise at any moment" with "he devote his undivided time and attention to the duties of his office."
Stevens made the exact revision Scalia proposed:
As a starting premise, petitioner contends that he occupies a unique office with powers and responsibilities so vast and important that the public interest demands that he devote his undivided time and attention to his public duties.
Scalia urged Stevens to make several revisions concerning the burden on the President:
(b) In the third line from the bottom on page 17, replace "impose an unacceptable burden on the President" with "impose an unacceptable burden on the President's time and energy."
(c) In lines 2-3 on page 19, replace "impose significant burdens on the Executive Branch" with "significantly burden the time and attention of the Chief Executive."
(d) In the third sentence of the second paragraph on page 21, replace "the burden on the Office of the Present that is a mere by-product" with "the burden on the President's time and energy that is a mere by-product."
Stevens adopted those change:
(b) As a factual matter, petitioner contends that this particular case—as well as the potential additional litigation that an affirmance of the Court of Appeals judgment might spawn—may impose an unacceptable burden on the President's time and energy, and thereby impair the effective performance of his office.
(c) The fact that a federal court's exercise of its traditional Article III jurisdiction may significantly burden the time and attention of the Chief Executive is not sufficient to establish a violation of the Constitution.
(d) The burden on the President's time and energy that is a mere byproduct of such review surely cannot be considered as onerous as the direct burden imposed by judicial review and the occasional invalidation of his official actions.
Sixth, Justice Scalia offered what he called a cri de coeur. Justice Stevens offered examples of how the separation of powers restricts the Congress and the President, but had only a single example of similar restrictions on the Court!
This next comment is perhaps more of a cri de coeur than something you can remedy: On page 16, after describing a few of the really significant respects in which this Court has imposed separation-of-powers restrictions upon Congress (Plaut, Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority) and upon the Executive (Youngstown), the only thing we can come up with for a separation-of-powers restriction upon ourselves is that we cannot issue advisory opinions. Seems pretty trivial, at least to the unsophisticated; and not something we would be likely to lust after. It would have been nice to come up with a more self-denying example-and perhaps one later than the administration of George Washington. A few years ago we had an opportunity to say that we cannot impose taxes, but even that proved too much for us. See Missouri v. Jenkins, 495 U. S. 33 (1990). The comparison with the constraints we have placed on the other branches makes us look pretty bad. Can you think of any things we would like to do that we have said we can't do?
Surely there must be something more than the prohibition on advisory opinions, right? Not much. Justice Stevens came up with one other relatively minor example:
And, the judicial power to decide cases and controversies does not include the provision of purely advisory opinions to the Executive,33 or permit the federal courts to resolve non justiciable questions.34
Footnote 34 cites Luther v. Borden, Nixon v. United States, and Baker v. Carr. Not much of a self-imposed constraint. CNN reports on a memo Stevens wrote to Scalia:
"Many thanks for your thoughtful and constructive letter. I am particularly grateful for your cri de coeur, for which I have a response," he wrote in part.
Seventh, Scalia offered revisions to the paragraph discussing Youngstown. Specifically, Scalia made clear that the President rarely takes action by himself. Rather, the President directs his subordinates to enforce the law. Indeed, the passive voice of the Take Care Clause recognizes this principle. The President does not personally execute the law. Rather, he "shall take care that the law be faithfully executed" by others. My colleague Seth Barrett Tillman has made this point before.
On page 19, it seems to me that the paragraph dealing with Youngstown should make it clear that our power to keep the President's official actions within the law has thus far been exercised only when the President acts through subordinates. Two changes would suffice: (a) augment the first sentence, as follows: "First, we have long held that when the President takes official action through subordinates (which is of course how he almost always conducts the nation's business), the Court has the authority, etc."; and (b) change the fifth line from the end of the paragraph to read: "decide whether the conduct that the President directed the Secretary of Commerce to engage in conformed to the law."
[c] Conforming changes should be made in the last paragraph on page 21: In the second sentence, "by reviewing the legality of the President's official conduct" should be changed to something like "by reviewing the legality of official action taken at the President's direction"; [d] and in the third sentence, "invalidation of his official actions" should be changed to something like "invalidation of official action taken at his direction."
Stevens did not make either change:
(a) First, we have long held that when the President takes official action, the Court has the authority to determine whether he has acted within the law.
(b) Despite the serious impact of that decision on the ability of the Executive Branch to accomplish its assigned mission, and the substantial time that the President must necessarily have devoted to the matter as a result of judicial involvement, we exercised our Article III jurisdiction to decide whether his official conduct conformed to the law.
(c) If the Judiciary may severely burden the Executive Branch by reviewing the legality of the President's official conduct, and if it may direct appropriate process to the President himself, it must follow that the federal courts have power to determine the legality of his unofficial conduct.
(d) The burden on the President's time and energy that is a mere byproduct of such review surely cannot be considered as onerous as the direct burden imposed by judicial review and the occasional invalidation of his official action.
Eighth, Scalia objected to placing the "historical record" in a footnote.
On page 22, putting all the "evidence from the historical record" into a footnote is not particularly flattering to the theory of constitutional interpretation that places primary reliance on such materials. I agree that the historical record is inconclusive, but putting it all in a footnote suggests that even if it were clear it would be only marginally relevant. In fact, however, if the historical record were clear, I would much more be guided by it than by the separation-of-powers discussion in the text. It seems to me you could easily put most or all of this in the text of the opinion, at the very end of Part V. It would even look better.
Here, Stevens followed Scalia, and placed the historical material in the body of the paragraph.
Ninth, Scalia urged Stevens to drop the penultimate paragraph of the opinion:
On page 27, I urge you to drop the penultimate paragraph of the opinion. If that paragraph said simply "Congress can provide greater protection for the President," it would be merely superfluous (there is no real-world possibility of such legislation). In fact, however, all the paragraph says is that Congress may pass "appropriate legislation" to give the President "stronger protection," although of course (footnote 38) any legislation giving the President stronger protection might be inappropriate, i.e., unconstitutional-we're not saying. This seems like pettifogging, and it would be better to say nothing. Surely it is self-evident that denying the existence of a constitutional right says nothing (either way) about Congress's ability to create a statutory right.
Stevens left that paragraph in the opinion:
If Congress deems it appropriate to afford the President stronger protection, it may respond with appropriate legislation. As petitioner notes in his brief, Congress has enacted more than one statute providing for the deferral of civil litigation to accommodate important public interests. Brief for Petitioner 34–36. See, e.g., 11 U.S.C. § 362 (litigation against debtor stayed upon filing of bankruptcy petition); Soldiers' and Sailors' Civil Relief Act of 1940, 50 U.S.C.App. §§ 501–525 (provisions governing, inter alia, tolling or stay of civil claims by or against military personnel during course of active duty). If the Constitution embodied the rule that the President advocates, Congress, of course, could not repeal it. But our holding today raises no barrier to a statutory response to these concerns.
It is fascinating to see how carefully Justice Stevens, who had a clear majority, followed Justice Scalia's comments.
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Clinton’s arguments were powerful indeed. It is a joke that even the more liberal members of the court did not think that civil lawsuits against a sitting President would be destructive to the Republic.
The Republic seems to have hung together fine though?
It was a close call.
You really think that Al Gore serving as president for a year and a half (and then probably getting elected in 2000!) would have destroyed the Republic?
Because that seems kind of nuts to me!
captcrisis, I normally agree with you, but not this time, and I was a huge Clinton supporter at the time. If I could go back in time and advise the Democrats, I would tell them to abandon Clinton and allow him to be forced out of office. Here’s why:
1. Perjury is a real crime and even an unpleasant truth is better than a lie. Presidents need to set that example.
2. President Gore would have been re-elected in 2000, thus saving us from eight years of GWB (which means Roe v. Wade would still be good law, by the way).
3. The Democrats would have had the high road on issues of sexual harassment and personal character. They also would have had a ready-made campaign issue in fomenting anger against the GOP hypocrites for being hypocrites.
4. Hillary Clinton would not have been the Democratic nominee in 2016, or probably ever. I like her personally and I think she would have been a competent president, but pretty much any other Democrat could have beaten Trump.
Yeah, it would have been pretty galling to have watched all the hypocrites in the GOP succeed in chasing him out of office, but it would have been his own fault, and ultimately it would have been better for the country.
Not to mention that the Dems would have been in a better position to oppose Trump for similar crap.
I doubt they expected him to lie to the judge.
As do many, you are confusing what you think is good policy and what the Constitution requires. The opinion made clear that Congress could pass such an immunity (or deferral) if it thought such was a good idea.
Precisely: The Court was not tasked with determining whether or not Presidential immunity was a good idea. They were tasked with determining if the law actually gave Presidents such immunity.
And nobody produced so much as a word in the Constitution suggesting it. To the contrary, when the Constitution gave members of Congress much more limited immunity, it did so entirely explicitly; The idea that it gave Presidents greater immunity by subtle implication was absurd.
The Framers also assumed future generations would give ordinary meanings to words. Such as “advice and consent” and “high crimes and misdemeanors”.
What if future generations construed “veto”’to mean “sign”? Or “officers” in the sense of “commissioned officers”? Such that the Army can’t function if the Senate refuses to consent to appointment of every Second Lieutenant?
And what does that have to do with the holding of Clinton v. Jones?
I guess you weren’t around for the well funded Paula Jones lawsuit, the perjury trap into which most Presidents would have fallen (certainly including Trump), and the near-removal of a President who had the overwhelming approval of the American people.
Guess you can't answer the question, so you resort to non-sequiturs.
As for perjury trap, there is a simple way to avoid that. Tell the truth. I even knew that before I got my law degree.
Most married men would tell the same lie. You would. I would. If you deny that, then you’re lying.
We forget now what a huge blow it would have been to our nation had Clinton been removed. You’d have to go back to FDR to find a President who was so internationally respected. During the impeachment crisis he appeared before the United Nations and got a spontaneous standing ovation, for his efforts in the Middle East and elsewhere.
A child thinks he’s the center of the universe. An adult knows he’s just one person in a world of adults. Clinton was an adult who to our embarrassment was almost brought down by children.
Still not answering the question. Still pulling your hair out and jumping up and down, and avoiding the question.
Not a serious response. End of conversation.
You realize that everybody understands that you just conceded that you lost the argument, right?
I can think of good reasons why presidents should be able to defer civil suits until they’re out of office. “The president might have done something so embarrassing that he’ll be really tempted to lie about it if he’s asked” doesn’t seem like one of them.
Edit to add: I’ve handled multiple cases where people admit to infidelity (and much worse) under oath. I don’t think it’s all that crazy to expect at least as much from the president!
If the wife didn’t know about it yet? And the (young) children were unsuspecting? And the question was irrelevant to the lawsuit?
The first example that comes to mind: a witness revealed to her conservative, religious parents (who happened to be watching the trial) for the first time that she’d had an abortion by answering a question in court. It had nothing to do with the case (I have absolutely no idea why the attorney went there), and she wasn’t even a party to the case. But she didn’t even hesitate before doing what she was supposed to (i.e. tell the truth). I don’t see any reason why we can’t expect the president to do the same.
"But she didn’t even hesitate before doing what she was supposed to (i.e. tell the truth). I don’t see any reason why we can’t expect the president to do the same."
Putting aside morality because some people seem amazed by it, I'd think many people would be afraid of committing perjury. I spent a few hours in a prison once, on business, and I am really, really, really not interested in spending a few years there.
My first line of defense against having to admit to embarrassing things is to not do them. I have seen a sig line that says "Doing the right thing means not having to say you are sorry". But if I had done something embarrassing, I'd rather admit it than serve time for perjury. I'm just not arrogant enough to think "I can lie and get away with it".
I don't know how many people are that arrogant; Captcrisis seems to think everyone is both amoral and confident they won't get caught. I'm not sure about that, and your experience seems to confirm that.
"If the wife didn’t know about it yet? And the (young) children were unsuspecting? And the question was irrelevant to the lawsuit?"
I count at least two glaring counterfactuals there, and possibly three.
First, his wife did know about it. He'd been cheating on her for years, and she was in charge of handling the problems that caused.
Second, as the guy who'd signed the law making the question relevant, he was one of a few hundred people world-wide categorically barred from claiming that it was irrelevant.
Third, maybe they were ignorant of it, maybe not at that point, but that wouldn't make perjury legal.
Yes, yes, and yes. Though those — except perhaps the second — don't really accurately characterize the situation. Also, you kind of strategically omit the second lie — the one to the grand jury. Can't hide behind the fig leaf of irrelevancy there.
That's true, none of the fig leaves apply to the lie to the grand jury. The adultery was already known, and he didn't have to testify, he could have taken the fifth.
That you hold that view says a great deal about your character - and none of it good.
I, and I suspect many others here, would tell the truth. First, because they respect the law. Second, because it's the right thing to do.
It is the case that if I anticipated the "perjury trap" was likely to arise and there wasn't some sort of gag order preventing me from doing so, I would warn my spouse of the upcoming revelation. However, if that wasn't possible, I would still tell the truth.
It's amusing that you reference children and adults. One characteristic that adults are expected to have is that they take responsibility for their actions while children may sometimes fail to do so (and proper parenting would result in such failures becoming teaching moments).
You are a hypocrite.
What in the world is hypocritical about that comment?
You, sir, are ignoring the actual reality of the situation, which is that Hillary was fully aware that her husband routinely cheated on her. Remember, she was actually, as we learned, in charge of handling "bimbo eruptions". This was scarcely the first time his philandering had come to light.
And, by the way, most husbands deal with that particular situation by not cheating on their wives in the first place.
You are also ignoring, (Actively avoiding, rather.) that, as I wrote above, the question before the Court was NOT, "Would it be a good idea if Presidents had this immunity?"
The question before the Court was whether or not they DID have that immunity. An utterly and completely different question.
And the fact of the matter is that absolutely nothing in the Constitution so much as suggests that they do.
And that ends the analysis, for any honest Justice.
DOESN'T Congress approve the commission of every 2LT?
It may be pro-forma, and there definitely aren't any hearings, but if a US Senator didn't want someone commissioned, I imagine the person likely wouldn't be.
"Original appointments in the grades of second lieutenant, first lieutenant, and captain in the Regular Army, Regular Air Force, and Regular Marine Corps in the grades of ensign, lieutenant (junior grade), and lieutenant in the Regular Navy, and in the equivalent grades in the Regular Space Force shall be made by the President alone."
10 USC 531
That is regular commissions; for reserve commissions the cutoff is LTC and above, 10USC12203.
There are various exceptions to those basic rules.
Even if you are a blind formalist, one way to tell what the law does is to check if one option is dumb and bad.
You mean all the laws that I think are dumb and bad aren't really laws? Awesome!
No, Sarcastro, especially if you are a formalist, that is not a way to check what the law does. It is, at most, a way to check what YOU might think the law OUGHT to do.
Only blind living constitutionalists treat their personal opinions of what is dumb and bad as indicating was the law IS.
I also miss Scalia, if only for the fact that he was a more principled and careful jurist than either Thomas or Alito have proven to be. I am not sure that he would have written to uphold Roe, and he wrote Heller, but he certainly wouldn't have written the Dobbs smear or introduced the bizarre standard enunciated in Bruen. And he wouldn't be champing at the bit to toss Chevron or Employment Div. v. Smith.
You could learn something from his example, Josh. Not that you will.
I agree with you, but that's a pretty low bar for measuring past Justices.
I thought Scalia was pretty obnoxious, at the time. Alito and Thomas are so, so much worse.
Scalia’s brilliant but if you think he might not have signed on to Dobbs you haven’t read his opinions in the post-Roe cases (Casey, Carhart, others).
Scalia’s analysis in those cases is as follows: Does the constitution say anything about abortion? No. Is there textual or historical support for an inference that abortion is a fundamental unenumerated right? No. Bingbangboom rational basis test we’re done - states can prohibit abortion.
That’s Dobbs.
States cannot abridge fundamental human rights. One is the right of a woman to control her body.
You have a cite for that?
Of course he doesn't.
States can't prevent women from prostituting themselves or taking drugs?
Its somewhat humorous that when the Constitution makes a clear statement that “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”, then you want to substitute your own reading, contrary to the courts.
And when the constitution is completely silent you want to read in a right based on your own sensibilities, again contrary to the court. A right that exists almost nowhere in the world, Europe for instance heavily regulates abortion. Only 3 countries allow unlimited abortion after 14 weeks: Sweden 18 weeks Iceland 22 weeks Netherlands 24 weeks
So it hardly seems that there is a “fundamental human right..of a woman to control her body”.
There is no such right. For example: a lot of drugs are still illegal - we can't put them in our bodies.
This is one of those "I wish it to be so, so therefore it is" types of fundamental rights.
I don't know that he'd have gone along with the invented "history and tradition" basis for Dobbs. So, he might have concurred while presenting other reasoning. Of course, Scalia still on the Court probably writes Dobbs, so...
Agreed if he’s on the court he writes Dobbs. Here’s a bit of his dissent in Steinberg v Csrhsrt. It’s very unsubtle:
I cannot under- stand why those who acknowledge that, in the opening words of JUSTICE O'CONNOR'S concurrence, "[t]he issue of abortion is one of the most contentious and controversial in contempo- rary American society," ante, at 947, persist in the belief that this Court, armed with neither constitutional text nor ac- cepted tradition, can resolve that contention and controversy rather than be consumed by it. If only for the sake of its own preservation, the Court should return this matter to the people-where the Constitution, by its silence on the subject, left it-and let them decide, State by State, whether this practice should be allowed. Casey must be overruled.
I mean, maybe. What he's saying here isn't necessarily, "return abortion to the states," like Dobbs did, but rather, "dispense with the rule under Casey," which introduced an "undue burden" overlay on the basic Roe framework that required a lot of judicial improvisation.
The second to last sentence literally says “return abortion to the states.”
And the last sentence literally says, "Casey must be overruled." Not Roe.
True, he could have said Casey and Roe must be overruled. But he repeatedly wrote in this case and elsewhere that abortion is not a protected constitutional right and states should be allowed to prohibit it if they wish.
I understand that. I'm just saying that I don't think Scalia's approach to overturning Roe would run: Ignore everything we've said about overturning our own precedents; if something was "egregiously wrong" when first decided, we can just summarily overturn an earlier ruling. I also think that Scalia would have been more sensitive to the appearance of the Court flipping dramatically after a membership change.
Scalia would have taken the change in course seriously. Alito just doesn't give a shit what the rest of us think.
Got it. I disagree with all your points except for the one about Scalia taking the change in course seriously.
Scalia, at least, would have taken seriously that Casey had previously re-affirmed Roe, and dealt with that fact. Scalia, at least, wouldn't have spent as much time aiming snark at the liberal justices. Scalia, at least, wouldn't have leaked the opinion to corner Kavanaugh into creating a majority.
Wait, you think Scalia wouldn't have been snarky?
And we still don't know who leaked the decision, or their motive.
Scalia was snarky, when writing in dissent. His majority opinions could be frustrating in their implicit biases and rhetorical tricks, but he wouldn't have written Dobbs with the same vitriol and contempt for his colleagues that Alito brought.
And we know as much as we'll ever know about who leaked the opinion. I have inferred from what we've seen that it's most likely someone on the conservative side. Alito himself? Hard to say. But he's such a dick, I certainly don't feel bad about imputing the leak to him unfairly. He clearly tipped the Court's hand on Hobby Lobby, so there's habit evidence.
"I have inferred from what we’ve seen that it’s most likely someone on the conservative side."
I'm not seeing that. And the claim on Hobby Lobby is denied by the people he's alleged to have leaked through.
No, of course you don't see it. You're practically a textbook example of Dunning-Kruger-infected motivated reasoning. You'll never "see" anything that contradicts your chosen narrative.
I am putting the pieces together, based on what's publicly known, based on publicly-observed behavior, and assuming that the people most directly involved have an interest in obstruction and throwing people off the trail. You are choosing to take their word for it. Why?
It's like with Trump and the Mueller investigation. The report ends up being a "nothingburger" because of a ton of obstruction of the investigation. Are we then forced to conclude that nothing inappropriate or concerning happened? Given the number of conspiracy theories you've woven about the left, I know you are certainly capable of reading in between the lines. Why do you so assiduously avoid doing so, when we're speaking of known liars and trolls?
You're not observing actual behavior very well. From the outset, almost all of the outrage about the leak was coming from the right. Even if you assume that conservatives are all great actors and that the outrage was all performative to deflect attention from their own guilt, that doesn't explain the lack of outrage on the left. Both sides seemed to agree that the pro-choice side would be the most likely potential beneficiary of the leak.
You’re not observing actual behavior very well. From the outset, almost all of the outrage about the leak was coming from the right.
And you're not recalling the history very well. Murmurs of Dobbs surfaced in the WSJ before the opinion broke in Politico. There was initially a lot of right-wing outrage directed in Sotomayor's direction, and then sudden silence - followed by an "investigation" by a friendly conservative that turned up nothing worthy of note, amazingly. Now Alito's doing a snide victory lap.
There's no plausible argument that the pro-choice side could or did benefit from the leak. It's clear that Kavanaugh was the vote in the balance, so it would have been plainly counter-productive for the liberal justices to leak the opinion to sway him. So the only argument advanced in favor of a left-leak theory is that the die was by that time cast and there was some political-enthusiasm advantage to be gained by... leaking the actual opinion a few weeks early? That makes no sense.
Listen - there are two possible explanations. One - a left-leaker badly miscalculated how leaking Dobbs somewhat early might benefit the pro-choice cause, in contravention of Court convention, ultimately to no actual benefit. Two - a right-leaker saw Kavanaugh waffling, knew he could be cornered, and had no qualms about cornering the newbie waffler, and achieved their aims.
Which is more plausible - an idiot leftist leaked it, or a savvy rightist did?
Trivially, the leak almost resulted in the Dobbs majority being reduced by assassination.
I'd love to see a comparison of Blackman's writings about Clinton v. Jones with his writings about various attempts to sue Trump...
I don’t think anyone would mistake me for a Blackman defender, but I’m not sure it’s entirely fair to ding him for not shitting out the same volume of hot takes while he was in junior high.
"Antonin Scalia: Well, I mean, what you argue is the darling of the professoriate, for sure, but it's also contrary to 140 years of our jurisprudence."
140 years of your jurisprudence is objectively wrong, and why are you so afraid to say the Slaughterhouse Court got something wrong?
Brett still doesn’t understand stare decisis. Or Chesterton's Fence. Film at 11.
Not sure how you can say that in response to his comments, when the question of how to deal with bad precedents is one of the hot topics for originalists recently–now that there is a nominal majority of them on the U.S. Supreme Court.
Brett’s comments recognize that tension quite well.
Demanding originalists hold to bad (AKA un-originalist) precedents because they also tend to believe in stare decisis only ensures the left-ward ratchet of the law. (If Living Constitutionalists actually believed such things, Obergefell never would have happened.) Plenty of originalists have correctly argued that Brown overturning Plessy was one such example, particularly by highlighting that the dissents made the correct point about the original public meaning of the constitutional law at that time.
No, they don't. Far from acknowledging any "tension", Brett has made it quite clear (in this comment and elsewhere) that he sees no independent utility in adhering to precedent, and that he cannot even conceive of a good-faith reason why someone would feel differently.
I think precedent is an excellent tie breaker. And maybe a bit more than that in cases of little import. That's not "no" independent utility.
But, yes, I think that the Constitution, NOT precedents concerning it, is the highest law of the land. I think that officers of the federal government, including judges, swear an oath to the Constitution, not to precedent.
And so I think that, where precedent and the Constitution conflict, and the case has any importance at all, the Constitution needs to prevail. Or else, as I've said, jurisprudence takes a Drunkard's walk away from the actual Constitution, and the visible disconnect between jurisprudence and the Constitution it is supposedly grounded in keeps growing.
I suppose that wouldn't be a concern if the Constitution were some sacred text the rabble could also read, and thus notice that growing disconnect.
Mis-post deleted.