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T. Markus Funk on Self-Defense Law
T. Markus Funk, a former prosecutor, has written extensively on self-defense law (and I was pleased to have had a chance to author one such piece with him); see, e.g., this post and this one, and also Rethinking Self-Defence: The 'Ancient Right's' Rationale Disentangled (2021), Understanding the Role Values Play (and Should Play) in Self-Defense Law, 58 American Criminal Law Review 331 (2021), Cracking Self-Defense's Intractable 'Difficult Cases,' 100 Nebraska Law Review (Rowman & Littlefield 2021), and What US Law Reformers Can Learn from Germany's Value-Explicit Approach to Self-Defense, 73 South Carolina Law Review 195 (2021).
I thought I'd pass along summaries of two of his recent articles, and also his comments on some recent self-defense stories in the news:
[1.] First, the comments:
As if to underscore my argument that the media—on both sides of the political divide—can't seem to get even the basics right, consider the April 18, 2023, Washington Post reporter's article (here, as reprinted in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution) about 84-year-old Missouri homeowner Andrew Lester's April 16 shooting of 16-year-old Ralph Yarl after the teenager accidentally stopped at the wrong house (that is, Lester's house).
In its initial reporting on the case, the reporter asserted that "'[s]tand your ground' laws say that when a person perceives a threat in a place where they have a right to be … they are permitted to respond immediately with physical, even lethal force."
This is simply wrong. Setting aside for now that the legal provision most likely relevant to this case is the castle doctrine, rather than stand your ground, "perceiving a threat" when you are in a place where you have a right to be is never, without more, enough to trigger deadly defensive force. Not in Missouri and not in any other state of the Union.
What the reporting apparently misunderstands is that stand your ground laws simply remove any otherwise existing state law duty to retreat. In other words, from a big picture perspective the person using the defensive force must still meet the following criteria:
- The (Unprovoked) Attack: The defender subjectively (that is, honestly) believed he or she was facing an actual unlawful attack;
- Necessity: The defender subjectively believed the amount of force used or threatened was necessary to prevent or terminate the interference (the underlying principle being that all human life, even the life of a violent criminal, is valuable and should be protected except when the defender has no option but to resort to defensive force);
- Objective Reasonableness: The defender was objectively reasonable in his or her belief, even if mistaken, that defensive force was necessary to thwart the attack (another nonuniversal safeguard limiting defensive violence); and
- Timing/Imminence: The attack was either ongoing or imminent.
Special Rules for Deadly Defensive Force
In the United States, deadly force is available only where the defendant reasonably believed the force was necessary to prevent imminent (1) death; (2) great bodily harm, such as serious permanent disfigurement, protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily member or organ, or other serious bodily injury; or (3) the commission of certain serious offenses/forcible felonies, such as kidnapping, arson, rape, burglary, and robbery.
As relevant here, then, stand your ground laws only impact the duty to retreat – they do not otherwise alter the basic self-defense requirements.
For what it is worth, here is how my April 2023 Oxford University piece summarizes the current state of the law on stand your ground (and the castle doctrine):
Approximately one-fourth of U.S. states take deadly self-defense off the table when the defender could have retreated in complete safety. But, pursuant to the "castle doctrine," even those states do not require such retreat in one's own home or, in some states, one's own workplace or vehicle. The remaining states, sometimes labeled "stand your ground" states, do not impose any categorical duty of safe retreat, regardless of where the attack occurs.
The core argument advanced by those favoring such harder-edged laws is that, in a liberal society, individuals should have the right to go anywhere (and stay anywhere) they are legally permitted to be, because freedom of movement is integral to individual autonomy. Stated differently, opponents of retreat requirements tend to view individual autonomy as a categorical, nonderivative, noninstrumental, and, most significantly, noncompensable fundamental value.
These laws, therefore, primarily limit the traditional duty to retreat prior to using deadly defensive force. They do not, however, as many have erroneously claimed, somehow authorize deadly force to ward off nonserious threats.
Without a doubt, stand your ground laws are among the most controversial U.S. legal provisions. (In the interest of full disclosure, in the past I have argued that the values of collective societal violence reduction and protection of the attacker's right to life under certain circumstances outweigh the countervailing values of deterrence and protecting the defender's equal standing and autonomy interest and, therefore, in some circumstances justify imposing a conditional safe retreat requirement.)
That said, many readers will be surprised to hear that England and Germany similarly reject a categorical requirement that the defender either avoid conflict or retreat once the conflict is imminent. In fact, the same is true for legally, politically, and culturally diverse countries ranging from Argentina, Botswana, Canada, France, and Nigeria to Ghana, Indonesia, Japan, Spain, and Sweden.
Stand your ground and castle doctrine laws should of course be subject to debate. Likewise subject to debate, however, should be the U.S. legal commentariat's inaccurate suggestion that only the United States permits deadly defensive force when safe retreat is available or when the defender could have somehow avoided the conflict altogether.
The Washington Post reporter's recitation of the law, in short, was simply incorrect; not as a matter of normative judgment—but as a matter of law. And, for what it is worth, the New York Times was not far behind in erroneously asserting that U.S. castle doctrine and stand-your-ground provisions afford greater protection to those who act pursuant to "misjudgments and mistakes," and then doubling down by proclaiming that castle doctrine laws "give people in their own homes the legal presumption of self-defense if they harm an intruder."
The significant danger created by such inaccurate reporting on the law is that some portion of these media outlets' substantial readerships may now believe that, when they are in their house, they can shoot at will as soon as they think there might be a "threat."
And, of course, this risk is no different when Fox on February 9, 2023, incorrectly reports that "Arizona . . . allows residents to shoot trespassers on their property." (Arizona law, as I discuss here, allows no such thing; neither the law in Arizona nor the law anywhere else in the U.S. permits deadly force to prevent a simple trespass.) Misreporting on self-defense law, in short, is a phenomenon not limited to just one side of the political/ideological aisle.
[2.] Here's the summary of Busting the Durable Myth That U.S. Self-Defense Law Uniquely Fails to Protect Human Life (Oxford University Comparative Legal Forum, April 2023), which is referred to above:
After each high-profile claim of self-defense, members of the legal commentariat follow the familiar practice of swiftly offering their takes. Much of what they say about these cases, for good reason, sparks spirited discussion.
There is, however, one disrupting note in the constant drumbeat of lawyers, legislators, academics, reporters, and other legal observers that is routinely and frustratingly out of sync: the claim that U.S. self-defense law is exceptionally severe by international standards and comparatively underappreciative of the value of human life and the need to prevent violence.
The problem with this narrative is that it fails to recognize that U.S. self-defense law is, in fact, very much within the international mainstream. In many respects, it in fact is significantly more protective of attackers and more carefully calibrated to reduce overall societal violence than the self-defense laws of many other nations. In terms of impact, such erroneous claims seriously distract from the much-needed debate over U.S. self-defense law's deeper public policy and moral grounding.
[3.] And here's the summary of Understanding the Development (and Surprising Deficiencies) of England's Storied Self-Defense Law (Columbia Journal of European Law, April 2023):
The media, scholars, public intellectuals, and legislators have long—not to mention confidently—instruct that US self-defense law is particularly loose and unregulated. They often characterize it as having a distinctly "wild west" or even "barbaric" edge. In stark contrast, England's approach to self-defense is commonly characterized as sensible, humanitarian, and civilized. But, as I discuss in this article and hope to reveal, these comparative law perceptions in large part reverse reality.
This article outlines and then deploys the value-based model of self-defense as the appropriate analytical yardstick. It then argues that it is, in fact, England's self-defense law that deserves to be characterized as unduly harsh and narrow, yielding outcomes that fail to account for the full range of implicated public and private interests. By way of illustration, unlike US law (and, for that matter, the laws in almost all of the world's jurisdictions), English law accords entirely unreasonably mistaken actors the right to cloak themselves in the doctrine of justification, provided their mistakes are "honest." Further, English law rejects any requirement of safe retreat prior to authorizing deadly self-preferential force.
The results of such approaches can have serious consequences. In fact, this article argues that England's self-defense law for no good reason devalues important systemic interests, such as overall violence reduction, protecting the lives of the morally innocent, ensuring the equal standing between people, and maintaining the legitimacy and creditworthiness of the legal order in the public eye. In other words, the conclusion reached here is that England's self-defense law pays insufficient attention to the inescapable conflicts created when rights and interests lock horns.
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That the media gets it wrong should come as no surprise to anyone.
EV. Something seems to be missing in your opening statement.
"...author one such piece with him);.."???
A C&P that accidentally did not include the first line, I suspect.
Yes, fixed, thanks.
Stand your ground laws also have a check on liberal prosecutors who don't like self-defense. Self-defense is a right of constitutional moment, and thus prosecutions of people who defend themselves are problematic.
Take Kyle Rittenhouse--no one seriously challenges the fact that he faced a deadly threat and tried to retreat from it. So why was he prosecuted? The real charge was armed trespassing on a riot. Zimmerman was prosecuted unfairly also--whatever one thinks of the judgment of a self-appointed cop who arms himself and follows people--the fact is that the evidence is that Zimmerman broke off his "pursuit" and was walking back to his car. He was then set upon by Martin and overpowered. At that point in time, Martin had access to a gun (ZImmerman's) and could have easily gotten it and shot Zimmerman, and this is not to mention the evidence that Martin was bashing Zimmerman's head into the pavement.
Picture this. You are in a large parking lot. A person starts shooting. You look around and the only cover is in the direction of the shooter. If you don't get to that cover, there is a wide expanse where you will be in the open if you try to flee. You make it to cover and the shooter advances towards you. You pull your weapon and take out the shooter. Without "stand your ground" a case can be made against you for murder. We had a County DA who openly stated that in her opinion there was no such thing as self-defense. She was fully prepared to prosecute as far as possible.
"What the reporting apparently misunderstands"
I'm not so certain this is an actual misunderstanding, rather than an affirmative effort to mislead people into thinking that "Stand your ground" is an objectively awful doctrine.
I tend to agree, but will concede that too many reporters are just sloppy with reporting of the law, citing what they have heard as "legal doctrine" without actually doing the research. I do believe editorial agendas do play a part, though.
Ignorance and self-righteousness - what a combination.
Think more like "style guides".
It would be easy enough for a reporter to look up the relevant statute for sake of accuracy. Most don't. (And in connection with the specific case mentioned in the post, none did.) Laziness, or worry that the statute will detract from the reporter's preferred narrative? Both, probably.
The far more difficult case involves the Uber driver who shot the BLM protester with the AK-47.
Assume for the moment that he didn't actually point it at the Uber driver but was "brandishing" it in a manner that the mythical "reasonable person" could believe meant that he could/would turn and fire in a fraction of a second.
Is that a justified self-defense killing? I can argue both sides of this.
And was blocking traffic "in the commission of a crime? Technically, it is.
A premeditated crime, even. Per an interview he gave earlier in the day, he knew that blocking traffic was illegal, and was carrying the rifle so that nobody would give him lip about it.
Which doesn't, of course, establish that he actually threatened the driver with it. A pity there's no video of their encounter.
1) Brett continues to lie about this "interview earlier in the day," where he didn't say anything of the kind.
2) Jaywalking is not a real crime.
Strange, then, that I linked to it before. Maybe we just disagree about the import of his words?
It’s Nieporent, so you have to assume there is some goofy pedant defense like “It wasn’t admitted as evidence so it didn’t occur , aherp, alerp aderp.”
This is verbatim as best I can get from the interview:
Garrett: … if I use it on the cops I am dead, and uh I think all the people who hate us and you know, want to say something to us are too big of [censored] to actually stop and do anything about it so …
Interviewer: So why did you start carrying ?
Garrett: So my roommate got arrested and they stopped letting us march anywhere, so, so I carry …
So we have a dude who is masked and armed with the rifle at the ready. The police have already reportedly given the guy several warnings about the way he is carrying the weapon. He is also reported to be using his girl friends wheelchair to impede vehicles. When Perry’s car is assaulted, things escalate and the guy gets shot.
I simply note that:
didn’t work out too well for him.
Blocking traffic may or may not be a crime depending on which city and state you are in and how you do it. There was a 20th century movement to decriminalize traffic violations to get more convictions. In Massachusetts I think it's no more a crime than me stopping my car on the crosswalk you are using. There may be situations where a prosecutor could get a charge of disorderly conduct to stick.
…unless you are a cop.
Contrary to leftist belief, Judge Dredd is still only fiction.
But you have to admit, Stallone was born for that role.
Comic book dialogue or Shakespeare? Say what you will about him, he knows his limits.
I was thinking of the comic book Judge Dredd. Did the Bard include him in one of his plays?
No I was speaking to Stallone's acting.
Up until the point where he opened his mouth. Karl Urban did fine and has the better film, by far.
I don't think anyone who has seen the immeasurably better remake could possibly say that.
I like both movies.
They're utterly incomparable to one another.
"(In the interest of full disclosure, in the past I have argued that the values of collective societal violence reduction and protection of the attacker's right to life under certain circumstances outweigh the countervailing values of deterrence and protecting the defender's equal standing and autonomy interest and, therefore, in some circumstances justify imposing a conditional safe retreat requirement.)"
A prosecutor is in favor of increasing the power of prosecutors? I didn't see that coming.
Actually it shows how far we've come that young Afro-Amuricans aren't afraid to ring a strangers doorbell at night, heck, I've got the "White Privilege" and wouldn't do that, you'll get shot
Frank
As I understand the story he thought it was the doorbell of the house where his brothers were attending a party. So I don’t know that it’s evidence of anything.
By coincidence my doorbell rang in mid comment. A solicitor. We get a lot of that. Post hurricane Ian everybody and his brother wants to sell me a new roof. (Already got one, thanks.) About a quarter of these solicitors are black. I haven't heard of any getting shot.
and I'm sure he wasn't loud or obnoxious or anything else to deserve getting shot, he was probably just "Missuh, Please, Missuh, you seen my Bruthas???"
and the old man was like "Yeah, Smith, and Wesson!"
Jeez, people thought it was great when Clint Eastwood shot guys in "Gran Torino"
One, in terms of people getting shot, as opposed to legal theory, what matters is what people think stand your ground and castle laws mean. And they see the Rittenhouse's and Zimmermans getting off.
Two, again in the real world not legal theory, talk to me about UK and German self defense law when they have more guns in private hands than people.
"And they see the Rittenhouse’s and Zimmermans getting off. "
This is a bit of a problem. Rittenhouse and Zimmerman both got off on a perfectly accurate reading of self defense law, given the actual events. Both of them were under attack, in legitimate fear of their lives, and had no avenue of escape.
But if you conjoin their getting off with the wildly inaccurate accounts of what they'd done, you might indeed get a distorted notion of what self defense law permits.
I personally think Zimmerman and Rittenhouse were assholes who went looking for trouble and found it.
Despite that, I think it was not wildly unreasonable for juries to acquit them.
But somehow, when a jury convicts Perry, you and Abbott, are all outraged about it. Because of course, as always, you, Brett Bellmore, know more about this than anyone.
Well, Zimmerman WAS guilty of walking the sidewalks of his own neighborhood at night, that's pretty aggressive.
Rittenhouse was defending people he knew from rioters; I wouldn't call that looking for trouble so much as trying to get between trouble and other people.
But in both cases they plainly satisfied the legal requirements of self defense law, based on the actual events.
My concession is that somebody who thought some of the less accurate reports of what they'd done were true might have gotten a really warped idea of what self defense law actually permits.
ZImmerman gave chase, Brett. We'll never know what happened, but the fact that you need to whitewash facts to defend what he did says a lot.
Neither case was plain. Both case went to trial for a reason.
You really seem into defending right-wingers who kill people as not just not guilty, but utterly correct, even when the facts are murky.
There's some moral darkness there; I thought better of you.
"Gave chase". That's a hell of a way to describe walking down a sidewalk in the same direction as somebody for a little while.
And, in fact, after arriving at the house where he was staying, Martin returned and attacked him. Unprovoked. Unless you think sharing a sidewalk with a black guy is "provocation".
The problem is that a lot of false accounts were put out about the events of that night, that were disproven in court, but they're still out there, and a lot of people, I suspect including you, are reasoning off of the lies, not the actual events.
Rittenhouse and Zimmerman were both presumed innocent, until proven otherwise. Or do you prefer Napoleonic justice?
Where were they "presumed innocent"? Maybe when paying lip service to the Judicial System and that's about it.
At least in the court of law the prosecutor still carries the burden of proof; not so much the journalist in the court of public opinion.
They do not, however, as many have erroneously claimed, somehow authorize deadly force to ward off nonserious threats.
What good does that do for the victim, if the guy with the gun thinks otherwise?
Here is a good rule, to clear up the confusion. You shoot someone who is not armed with a deadly weapon, you stand trial. A jury decides the extent of the threat you faced, and whether your assessment of the situation was reasonable.
You get the benefit if the person you shoot is armed himself. But not if the guy you shot was carrying legally, and there is evidence that the gun was never pointed at you.
The law prohibits me from walking up to you on the street and gutting you like a fish, too. What good does that do you lying there on the pavement, with your intestines spilling out?
That's a hell of a stupid standard for whether laws are worthwhile: Do they resurrect the victim? No? OK, they're pointless.
"You shoot someone who is not armed with a deadly weapon, you stand trial."
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger" /Fifth Amendment
"Oh, that part doesn't apply to the states." /Supreme Court
In what way would this rule "clear up the confusion"?
Because dumbguy can be really clear on what will happen: If I pull the trigger on this unarmed guy, I'm going to stand trial.
Note also, I recognize that creates a hazard that sometimes a genuinely dangerous unarmed assailant might not get shot. I don't mind. Almost every time, that unarmed guy won't be an assailant at all, and most of the times he is, he will not be a deadly or especially dangerous assailant.
Overwhelmingly, the rule would promote justice. As it is, stand-your-ground risks deadly injustice, because Joe Average is not a law geek, and often thinks the law says shoot when it doesn't. How many times have you ever heard someone explain stand your ground, and everyone listening all agreed on just what it meant.?
So if Joe wants to carry, and create public hazards by doing it, I'm fine if Joe is in line for some of that hazard.
Sure, we understand: You want to punish even the most open and shut cases of self defense with a trial, so as to discourage it.
Yes, Bellmore, but try thinking first. The problem, public and private, is that no one can predict the future, including the future a few seconds from now, with regard to whether someone unarmed is about to turn into a dangerous assailant.
About the question who makes that determination, we get two alternatives. It can be some guy with a gun, full of fear, possibly self-righteous, but not the least bit clairvoyant. Or it can be society at large, demanding that life and death decisions be made on the basis of what usually happens, but allowing exceptions based on due process afterward.
You want the decision made by the guy with gun, because you want impunity for gun carriers, and don't give a damn what cost might be inflicted on others to deliver that impunity to you. You demand a policy which presumes you act reasonably, when you kill or maim someone else. You are not the only interested party there.
Also, a trial is a protection, not a punishment. You assume you can make instantaneous life and death decisions reasonably. Your right to a trial protects you in that assumption, but it demands that what you presume without basis be proved correct when there is evidence. Society at large might privilege you to exercise that presumption, but it cannot do that if you deny responsibility for what you do.
If that seems oppressive to you, you always have the alternative to avoid the oppression entirely. Leave the gun at home. For almost everyone, almost all the time, that will prove the wisest policy for personal self-protection anyway.
You are in fantasy land. Whether self defense is justifiable is always decided by society at large, by the legislators and prosecutors we elect and the jurors we conscript. We simply don't have an epidemic of cases of unjustified shootings where the perps aren't prosecuted. If you think there is such an epidemic, name some.
There are three recent high profile shootings that seem quite unjustified. Bold prediction: those three shooters are going to prison. Just like other shooters in situations that were a lot closer, but not close enough, to being justified.
Helpful suggestion: have the media stop falsely reporting that 'SYG means you can shoot people with impunity', because if they repeat it often enough someone might believe it and you end up with a body and an inmate that could be avoided if the media did their doggone job.
Not sure exactly what you are trying to say there. The legal question is, essentially, was the person claiming self defense in reasonable fear of losing his life or incurring great bodily injury. It really doesn’t matter in May cases whether you aren’t legally able to carry the weapon you used - in a number of cases, felons in possession (of a firearm) have succeeded in claiming self defense. Of course, they could still be tried and convicted of the crime of being a felon in possession of a firearm. As the Rittenhouse prosecutor tried to do, until it was pointed out to him that Rittenhouse had a perfect legal right to have had that gun there that night.
It’s also essentially almost irrelevant whether the person you shoot has a gun or other deadly weapon. People die everyday from fists. That’s all that Trayvon Martin was using on George Zimmerman, yet it was determined at trial that Martin had, indeed, been threatening Zimmerman with death or great bodily injury, justifying the use of deadly force in self defense.
Bruce Hayden, you were correct in your first sentence. What you don't get is that I criticize most of what you believe and rely upon with regard to self-defense law. Especially including your interpretation of cases I know well enough to know no one has evidence to say anything for certain, like the Martin case. Nobody found a likelihood Martin was using dangerous force against Zimmerman. Instead, the small increment of doubt protecting Zimmerman was just large enough to satisfy the law. Neither you, nor anyone else, has any reason to believe Zimmerman was not the assailant.
My view is that for all the instances someone unarmed might justifiably and reasonably claim to be in fear of his life or great bodily harm, in only a tiny percentage of those instances would it transpire that anyone be notably harmed without gunfire. Even with a pronounced advantage in physical prowess, it is difficult and unlikely for someone without a weapon to inflict much serious damage on another person. And of course, prior to an attempt to inflict damage, there is a huge likelihood no violence will happen at all.
Thus, the self-defense doctrine in which you put your faith adds avoidable deadly risk. Perhaps it is reassuring to presume—fatuously—that virtue will always lie clearly on the side of the gun wielder, and culpability will lie with the person shot—or else no shooting would happen.
That presumes perfect judgment by the person with the gun. I don't presume even average judgment by the person with the gun. My estimate is that someone who arms himself against no more than unpredictable happenstance has by that choice alone shown he is a poor judge of hazard. There is a suggestion of emotional instability in it. Or maybe cowardice.
Given that realistic balance of factors, I don't see practical advantage in a body of law structured to shift culpability away from a shooter, and toward an unarmed shooting victim. I think it is morally questionable that shooters can legally claim fearful justification because they worried that their own gun might be taken and used against them by someone unarmed. I think the law of self defense has gone so far wrong that it encourages unjustified shootings of innocents.
I guess I remain a little unclear what you’re proposing. In your first comment, you said that if you shoot an unarmed person, you should automatically be put on trial. But of course Zimmerman was put on trial, as are the vast majority of people who shoot unarmed people. Now it seems like your complaint is not that too few people are tried, but that too many are acquitted. What are you suggesting to change that dynamic?
Noscitur, I suggest that Zimmerman-like gun wielders be taught to expect they have no alternative except a trial, if they kill someone unarmed. The dynamic change I expect will be fewer shootings, because fewer gun wielders will suppose mistakenly a public presumption that they enjoy a right to violence.
My take on the Zimmerman affair is that he showed by his behavior a presumption that he was acting under public approval, to stalk and confront Martin with a gun. If there is public confusion whether that approval exists, there is an urgent need to end the confusion.
All the activity around stand your ground started in 2005 in Florida as part of a broader strengthening of the law of self defense, and has continued incrementally since. And so in Florida today, the list of forcible felonies relevant to this defense also includes "aggravated stalking".
And, also in Florida, deadly force is available in defense of property, not just of person, if reasonably believed necessary to prevent one of these forcible felonies.
And, in Florida again, we aren't just talking about a trial defense, self-defense (whether stand-your-ground-based or not) confers immunity from any civil and criminal liability, including immunity from arrest. To defeat a prima facie assertion of self defense in a criminal prosecution requires a pre-trial showing by clear and convincing evidence that the immunity does not apply.
That latter was very likely the big reason that the left melted down with the George Zimmerman, and confused so many with Florida’s SYG. The two were enacted at the same time, and SYD was used to describe both, but actual SYD (abrogation of the common law Retreat Doctrine) was ever relevant to the case, because Zimmerman never had an opportunity to retreat. The evidence at trial was that Martin had snuck up behind Zimmerman, sucker punched him, knocked him to the round, climbed on top of him, pummeled him MMA style, beating his head into the concrete walkway, and then tried to strangle him when he yelled out for help. Zimmerman, from the time he was sucker punched, to the time he shot Martin never had a chance to retreat.
What that liability provision does is helps to prevent prosecutors from using prosecution as a punishment for the effrontery of claiming self defense, even if the defendant has an excellent self defense case, as Zimmerman did. Keep in mind that the standard of proof (clear and convincing) is much lower for the prosecutor that he would face at trial (beyond a reasonable doubt). (Esp liberal) Prosecutors hated that law, because trying very obviously well justified self defense cases was no longer liability free on their part.
Personally, I'd find it much better if we just established a hard rule that acquitted defendants must always be made whole from all the reasonable costs caused by the prosecution. (By reasonable, I mean to rule out deliberately inflated defense compensation.)
It's perfectly reasonable to require the convicted to bear the costs of their defense and trial, but the acquitted are officially Not Guilty, why should they bear these expenses?
Hayden, get a grip. Zimmerman never had an opportunity to retreat? He stalked Martin. While he did that, he could have retreated in perfect safety at any moment. And he should have. He was advised to retreat.
Zimmerman's irresponsible initiative caused Martin's death, to a moral certainty.
Also, there is zero evidence to suppose that had Zimmerman not stalked and confronted Martin, any bad outcome at all would have resulted from Martin.
His idea would let him prosecute more people.
https://www.perkinscoie.com/en/professionals/t-markus-funk.html
That wasn't so hard.
And his brother C. Deez Funk
That's a good point, but doesn't change the fact that most of them do get it wrong. Indeed, most media outlets--regardless of ideology--get legal issues wrong as a general matter. I almost never read non-legal news-sites/blogs for legal news (unless I'm just trying to get a sense of what the general public is being told). And even then, most *legal* news-sites/blogs have a rather obvious bias that has to be taken into account.
That may have been true in earlier times, when literally every town had a local newspaper and major cities had multiple papers. Even in the early days of broadcast media (think radio) there were multiple independent outlets. However with the rise on networks, both radio and TV that is no longer true.
That razor also could be applied to law enforcement, thousands of agencies, tens to hundreds of thousands of people.
The real question is when one of "them" is in the wrong, how does accountability for that come into play.
Statements of the form, "No one seriously X" are basically always wrong regardless of what X is. It would have been more accurate to say that nobody reasonably challenges the fact that he faced a deadly threat, and tried to retreat from it, given that we have video of what happened.
When did I ever say it was?
This is different from "determined armed jaywalkers threatening witnesses with their gun", of course.
Define "threaten"? As I mentioned, if his finger is anywhere near the trigger and he "muzzle sweeps" me. I'm threatened. If he has the weapon slung or in a carry position then that's different.
That it is entirely plausible that Garrett was threatening Perry ?
Idiot strawmen about peaceful protesters jaywalking aside. Being masked, holding a rifle in the ready position and pounding on someone's car, if not terminally stupid, is not acceptable peaceful assembly.
I imagine the best solution is to actually wear a bodycam, so that if you are shot, you can clearly show you were not threatening anyone and your assailant is properly convicted. I can also see that the whole purpose of the mask and Antifa types hostility to being recorded is that you can be convicted for crimes you are committing at the protest. Given that protest crimes are commonplace and being shot by someone you are assaulting isn't, I can see the reason not to wear bodycams.
One thing his excerpt fails to mention is what question Garrett was originally answering, which was about whether he thought he'd have to use his weapon. And his answer was no.
Garrett never said one word about wanting to intimidate people. Never said one word about carrying the gun so that he could jaywalk without getting in trouble. Brett simply made all that up.
Garrett: So my roommate got arrested and they stopped letting us march anywhere, so, so I carry
So, what exactly do you think this means ? He carries as push back to keep from being prevented from marching. Why exactly would carrying a firearm provide that pushback ? You think it was a stunning fashion piece from Amani that convinces everyone that he is so fabulous he should be allowed to march ?
Your mental gymnastics are impressive.
Personally I wouldn't care what he said even if I knew it. In that kind of a situation you muzzle sweep me and your finger is on the trigger, I'm taking you out. It meets the definition of self-defense. I have a legitimate fear of death or grievous bodily harm.
It's not as though it was a secret that the Antifa wear masks and uniform clothing for the same reason the Klan did, to make identifying who they are for prosecution of crimes they commit effectively impossible.
That's why the anti-Klan acts were enacted, after all, and it's long since overdue that they be enforced against the Democratic party's latest anonymous goon squads.
Why do you continually skip the first exchange where he was asked why he was carrying a gun and responded with, "They don't let us march in the streets anymore, so gotta practice some of our rights"?
He did not say that it was a "pushback to keep from being prevented from marching." In fact he expressly said he'd never use it against the cops because it would be suicide to do so.
Yes, if the facts were different then the facts would be different. But in fact Perry admitted that Foster never pointed the gun at him.
Accordign to LinkedIn, he hasn't been a prosecutor since 2010, and it doesn't sound like he was handling a lot of cases where self-defense would have been an issue (not that there are many of those in the federal system to begin with).
And then he went out and did, what? Marched in the streets, knowing it wasn't legal to do so.
And the Uber driver wasn't a cop, you might notice...
... and in the same sentence he said that anyone that hated them would be too much of a pussy to do anything about it. Why again would he accuse them of being cowardly if there was no threat and nothing to cower from ?
Keep dancing.
Thus is precisely what 2A folks say they want.
I find the reversal in this case makes it quite clear what many on here actually want.
Completely. If people don't believe your silly narrative then they must believe some other ridiculous point you make as a false alternative. Herp ! Lerp ! Derp ! ChatGPT that you ?
Tell you what, if 2A advocates, put on masks and beat on your car while carrying those weapons with their guns at the ready, feel free to shoot them and I won't complain.
'And the Uber driver wasn’t a cop, you might notice…'
But he didn't use his gun on the Uber driver. He didn't even point it at him.
'feel free to shoot them and I won’t complain.'
They'll be the cops.
OK, fair enough...it would allow other prosecutors, to whom he is connected by esprit de corps, to prosecute more people.
Do you ever get jokes?
Sure. I get that you and your comments are usually "jokes".