The Volokh Conspiracy
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Race, "Wokeness," and Kidney Transplant Shortages
Some conservatives are in the awkward position of resisting both policies that reduce the role of race in allocating kidneys for transplant, and those that increase it. The better way to alleviate kidney shortages is to legalize organ markets.
The United States has a severe shortage of kidneys available for transplant. As a result, many thousands of people die every year, and thousands more are condemned to years of painful and costly kidney dialysis until they are finally able to get off the waiting list for organs. Recently, organ transplant organizations have been attempting to alleviate perceived racial disparities in access to organ transplants through policies that in some ways increase the role of racial considerations in deciding who gets priority in the transplant queue, and in other ways reduce it.
Both have attracted the ire of Dr. Stanley Goldfarb, a prominent conservative advocate and commentator on health care policy. Some of his objections seem sound, whereas others contradict principles of color-blindness that "anti-woke" conservatives rightly advocate in other contexts. But both he and his left-wing opponents in these debates ignore by far the best way to alleviate kidney shortages for patients of all races: legalizing organ markets.
Goldfarb summarizes the proposed race-related policy changes and his reasons for opposing them in a recent City Journal article:
The Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network (OPTN) and the United Network for Organ Sharing (UNOS) are implementing new policies to make skin color a crucial factor in who receives life-saving kidney transplants. The shift is perhaps the most dangerous victory for wokeness in health care to date.
In the name of "equity," UNOS and OPTN purport to be expanding black patients' access to kidney transplants. They essentially claim that the longstanding system for such transplants is racist, pointing to how black patients make up 30 percent of the dialysis population and transplant wait list but receive a smaller fraction of kidney transplants….
UNOS and OPTN… are forcing transplant centers to rework the waitlist for cadaveric kidneys in such a way that favors black patients. The rationale is that the longstanding formula used to estimate kidney function, which was race-conscious and required a second calculation for black patients, was racist.
Yet this second calculation was necessary to produce an accurate value for kidney function in black patients. Without it, the measure would be highly inaccurate, dramatically underestimating kidney function. (Research shows that people of African-American descent tend to have higher levels of muscle mass compared with other population groups, which can affect the levels of creatinine, a waste product produced by muscles, in their blood. Creatinine is used as a marker to estimate kidney function in GFR equations, including the MDRD equation; however, African Americans may have higher creatinine levels even if their kidney function is normal.)….
Many black patients previously regarded as ineligible for the transplantation waitlist will now be listed, and some will even be moved ahead of others already on the waiting list…
OPTN is also preparing, in the name of equity, to abandon its longstanding pledge to those who selflessly donated a kidney to a loved one or even to a stranger through a matching program. Currently, these courageous donors are listed at the top of the transplant waiting list should they ever require a transplant. Donating a kidney does not increase the risk of developing kidney failure, so the need is unlikely. Yet this was the only compensation for the charitable act allowed by law. And it helped reassure donors, many understandably worried about the possibility of needing a transplant of their own.
Five times as many whites as blacks donate kidneys, which means that many more whites enjoy this benefit. Activists therefore see it as racist, and they want OPTN to change its policies. The group is considering four proposals; all would eliminate prior donors' waitlist priority and give them a mere 10 percent–15 percent improvement on their waitlist position.
In the name of anti-wokeness, Goldfarb here objects to a proposal that would actually reduce the consideration of race in determining who is eligible for a kidney transplant. This is pretty obviously at odds with traditional conservative support for color-blind government policy and condemnation of the "woke" for promoting race-consciousness. The new OPTN formula for estimating kidney functioning is actually race-neutral, whereas the old one explicitly took race into account, in a way that penalized black transplant candidates. Advocates of race-neutrality should welcome this change, not complain about supposed "wokeness."
Admittedly, one could argue that this is one of the very rare cases where racial discrimination may be justified because there are genuine physical differences between racial and ethnic groups, as is the case with vulnerability to certain genetic diseases (such as Tay-Sachs Disease, which primarily affects Ashkenazic Jews and a few other groups). But defenders of race-conscious policy would at least have to show that the connection between race and lesser vulnerability is so great as to be strong enough to overcome the presumption against racially discriminatory policies, and that the difference cannot be captured by other measures, such as controlling for the patient's muscle mass (higher average muscle mass is, according to Dr. Goldfarb, the reason for the difference between black patients and others).
Dr. Goldfarb is on stronger ground in criticizing the proposal to reduce the priority given to organ donors in the queue for receiving kidneys. Such a policy would predictably reduce the incentive to donate kidneys in the first place, thereby further exacerbating the organ shortage. Moreover, it is not even the case that African-Americans are underrepresented in the class of people eligible for preferences because they have donated kidneys in the past. As of 2021, 15.1% of kidney donors were black, which is actually a 25% larger figure than the black percentage of the US populations (12%). Even if we assume that "equity" requires proportional representation of African-Americans in the class of people eligible for donor preferences, the status quo already meets that standard.
While the plan to reduce organ donor preferences is formally race neutral, it is clearly motivated by a desire to benefit one racial group (African-Americans) relative to others. When backed by government mandate (as the organ donation system is), such racially motivated policies are subject to special legal scrutiny and are presumptively unconstitutional unless the government can prove they would have adopted the same policy even in the absence of racial motivation. I am skeptical that the OPTN plan could survive such scrutiny.
Sadly, neither OPTN nor its critics on the right support the one proposal most likely to eliminate the kidney shortage, and thereby save many thousands of lives, white and black alike. That can be done by legalizing organ markets, and allowing medical providers to pay kidney donors. In a nation of over 300 million people, allowing compensation should enable us to easily generate the 30,000 to 40,000 kidney donations per year, needed to eliminate the waiting list entirely.
In previous writings, I have criticized standard arguments against organ market legalization, such as concerns that it would be too dangerous for organ donors, claims that it amounts to to immoral "commodification" of the body, and fears that it would lead to exploitation of the poor (see also here). Paying for organs is also likely to be much cheaper than the enormous cost of keeping people on kidney dialysis while they languish on the waitlist.
Organ markets would not, of course, require individual patients to personally purchase kidneys at some kind of store or auction. Rather, they would be bought by health care providers, just as other complex medical supplies currently are. They would have strong incentives to assure quality and safety (as is currently true with unpaid donations). Indeed, the option of payment can actually improve quality, by eliminating shortages that may currently lead to pressure for lower standards.
To the extent African-Americans are disproportionately likely to endure long waits under the current system, legalized organ markets would be a particularly great boon for them. But organ markets can save the lives of many thousands of people without regard to race. I hope woke and anti-woke alike will come to see the value of that.
UPDATE: In one of its relatively few good policies, the Trump Administration increased allowable compensation for expenses incurred by organ donors; they deserve great credit for that. But much more can be achieved by legalizing payments over and above expenses. After all, there would be shortages of almost any good or service if consumers were not allowed to pay more than it cost producers to provide.
UPDATE 2: Dr. Goldfarb has written a reply to this post, which is available here. I, in turn, wrote a brief rejoinder, posted here.
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Organ markets would not, of course, require individual patients to personally purchase kidneys at some kind of store or auction. Rather, they would be bought by health care providers, just as other complex medical supplies currently are.
If there was some kind of complete separation of the recipient wait list and the providers paying for donations, then maybe it could avoid the problems critics of organ markets bring up. But then, that wouldn't really be an organ "market", would it? Using the word "market" implies the people receiving the goods being the ones to pay for them and to have shopped around for the best deal.
Really, I wouldn't find compensating a living organ donor for lost wages at work, travel expenses, as well as all medical expenses related to the donation to be creating a risk of corruption or exploitation. But paying someone to make a donation like that beyond that is problematic, at best. It is simply hard to believe that paying people to donate organs or tissue would encourage anyone but those that are not financially secure to sign up. I would examine efforts to pay people to donate blood as a way to see who it encourages to volunteer.
I'm sorry, why is it problematic? I see a voluntary transaction between two autonomous individuals.
If I want to sell a kidney for 250K or a lobe of my liver for 1MM and provide my family with financial security, who is to say I cannot do that? I see no moral issue at all.
If Steve Jobs had tapped me on the shoulder and asked for a lobe of my liver, I would have said, "Sure, for 100MM dollars".
Recalling the old joke about the differing levels of commitment between the chicken and pig who contribute to a bacon and egg breakfast ... how about the parent who wants to fund their kid's college tuition by selling all their organs, including their heart?
The pure libertarian answer, I suppose, is 'Why not, autonomous individuals'. No one objects to parents making extreme sacrifices for the benefit of their kids - we honor the mother who runs into the burning house in an attempt to save her baby.
Would you find funding tuition in that way problematic?
The libertarian answer, of course, is that they're the one entitled to decide that, not you.
Killing themselves to fund tuition?
You have an inalienable right to life, and the government would not have the power to enforce such a contract, of life (and organs) for tuition money.
That isn’t a patriarchical command, but rather a recognition of the inalienability of the right to life. Nobody can pull that away from you. This shows up more clearly in the idiot notion you can permanently sell yourself into slavery and expect enforcement if you try to bail because of your poor decision making.
That’s the argument anyway. It’s similar to the puzzle of whether Parliament can permanently bind itself. Answer in practice: no.
Personally, if you wanna kill yourself for a gumball, have at it. Evolution will win that argument.
Perhaps free college education would be a better solution.
Right, that way you can sacrifice other people's lives, instead of your own. Much more moral!
Not a single life or organ would be sacrificed. The US is the richest country in the world, its tax revenues are enormous. If politicians left and right weren't so focused on channeling those revenues into the pockets of private enterprises that do nothing to benefit anyone but their shareholders, it could be easily afforded.
Our tax revenues are so enormous we have trillion dollar deficits!
Everyone gets free stuff, weee! That always works out great! Weeeee free stuff! Thank you Uncle Sugar
'Sorry honey there's a budget deficit you have to sell a kidney so we can keep funneling billions to Elon Musk!'
You mean the top 5% Federal households and politician families.
The richest counties in America are DC suburbs, not where Elon Musk lives. Generational Wealth comes from "winning" your first election.
Today You Learned.
Whatever, that kidney's gotta go.
Line up, darkies! You get priority over the Whites!
Sincerely,
Not-A-Racist Nige
Hey, there are super-wealthy who aren't white, y'know. Cut out a kidney for them!
Most of the super wealthy are Jews, but we aren't allowed to mention that.
Yet you somehow managed.
https://www.bloomberg.com/billionaires/
Now, I don’t actually know much personal stuff about billionaires, but I don’t think most of them are Jewish. If most of them turned out to be Christian and right-wing, though, what would that tell us?
Finally an honest statement from a CCP shill & bootlicker
‘ i a m a CCP shill & bootlicker’
Finally an honest statement from the racist anti-semite.
I think new commenting system is broken
You are the Western Civilization heterosexual ideal, defeated by a commenting system. Bit like yer man getting caught on Discord. Top o' the gene pool.
You never really understood the story of The Ant And The Grasshopper, did you?
Why not sell your Brain?, obviously hasn't been used much
Cheaper just to kidnap you and leave you in the bath in some fleabit motel.
From a societal viewpoint, certain transactions are problematic for society as a whole.
For example, imagine the same situation, but instead of selling an organ, you decide to sell yourself into slavery. Again, it's a "a voluntary transaction between two autonomous individuals"
If you were to think through this, are there any issues with this? Especially from the point of view of a society?
It used to be legal. There are people who both sold themselves into slavery and later bought themselves back out.
Certain transactions might be problematic AL; so why is this one?
Why is selling one's self into slavery problematic?
Because, on a certain level, a modern society is more than just a collection of individuals engaging in individual level transactions. And when some societal customs and traditions...traditions like a concepts like equality for all citizens...are breached extensively, society (and many of the benefits it brings) is reduced.
Slavery...even if one sells oneself into slavery...is one of those items. The buying and selling of human life, that's diametrically opposed to the concept that everyone is equal.
Organ sales are an part of that. It takes a critical element of human life...and allows the sale (and purchase) of it. It means the rich can quite literally extend their life...at the expense of the poor. And it's counter to the concept of equality. (And yes, I know there are other issues associated with money and length of life, but this is stunningly direct, and because of that, it's an issue).
Now, markets, they work best when something can be produced. They encourage more production, innovation, and can drop the price of the item that needs to be produced (in the long run). But they depend on an item being produced. And people aren't producing organs (at least not more than they start with). There's not going to be any innovation or increase in production. So, you're going to get this situation where the poor sell off their organs so the rich can live longer. And you may even see a drop in production, as those who would volunteer their organs up, instead say "No, just buy it".
Ultimately it leads to societal issues with trust, law-abiding nature, and more. Societal trust is really underrated.
The Confederacy needed more of you (Either way, you support Slavery, or you're cool with being a Slave (result of a "Voluntary transaction between two autonomous individuals.")
You gotta be of the "Woke" generation, do you never get opposing opinions growing up??
Frank "Jesus, he was guilty, DEATH!!!!! umm, ok and if he revives in 3 days....."
If I want to sell a kidney for 250K or a lobe of my liver for 1MM and provide my family with financial security, who is to say I cannot do that? I see no moral issue at all.
Well, sure. I suppose in that system, people could even "will" their organs into the system for money to provide an inheritance, so that the market would extend to hearts and lungs. Who is able to pay that much for an organ, though? You are talking about a society where people lower on the economic rungs are selling their organs to a few people on a very high rung. In that society, who is going to donate their organs for nothing to a stranger? It leads to a system where only those with enough wealth get lifesaving organ transplants.
I was nodding my head until the end. I don't agree where only those with enough wealth get life-saving organ transplants. Quite the opposite, actually.
This is a sort of reasoning we see quite a bit lately, and we're getting to see the implications of it, too: If you're rather that more people die, if that's what it takes that the deaths be distributed equitably, why, sure enough, more people die. And you're cool with that, too, because it's not the deaths you object to, it's how they're distributed.
But I think you might be missing an implication here, even so: If you can't sell something, there's no financial motive to increase the supply, by, say, paying people to sign donor cards, or even finding a way to manufacture transplantable organs, the supply doesn't get increased.
Oh, wait, that saves lives, but doesn't do anything to make sure the right lives get saved, so you probably don't care.
Liver donation isn't a great example to use in this argument, because your body regenerates the donated part of the liver rather quickly. Once you give up a kidney, it's gone forever.
Once it's monetised, donations would plummet, and it would become a purely economic transaction. You'd have the poor people desperate enough to do it, and the rich people able to afford it and barring the odd tax-deductible charity cases, everyone else in the middle. Perfect dytopian set-up, surprised there isn't a YA series using it already.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jigsaw_Man
'In early 2023, the State of Massachusetts considered a bill to allow Massachusetts prisoners to earn time off from their sentences by forfeiting some of their vital organs and/or bone marrow to the state'
In your FACE Algis Budrys.
Obviously bitter klingers
Edgebot awkwardly trying to join the conversation.
Nige hoping nobody finds the other 2 letters in his name,
How was that? AI? funny you can't come up with a better retort than some random Edgebot
Speaking of Edges,
Did Putin take Booty-Judge(AKA Boot-Edge-Edge) prisoner, it's like he (lightly) lands his loafers in E Palestine and he's gone!
Edgebot gonna cry.
Never Let Me Go by Kazuro Ishiguro
Though not 'YA'
Niven's 'A Gift from Earth'
Larry Niven wrote a whole series of stories on this topic. And invented a whole new type of organized crime, "Organlegging."
That pair of positions is only "awkward" if you assume that he's looking at things with a leftist / progressive race-based worldview.
“To a man with a hammer, the whole world is a nail.”
To a man with two kidneys, the whole world is a potential buyer.
So instead of black people getting fewer kidney transplants, poor people would get fewer kidney transplants. But will that actually appeal to the commenters here.
Or you can believe in a market where providers pay for organs but miraculously distribute the valuable organs they procured without regard to which patients can pay.
Presumably there is a best policy that maximizes number of lives saved.
Any deviation murders, to uphold some jackass's sensibilities.
A simple rule that solves the trolley problem: save the most lives.
But is a youth's life equal to an elderly life? Healthy versus ill? And, as posed by this post, a black life against a white life? How will you quantify all factors, or just ignore them?
there would be shortages of almost any good or service if consumers were not allowed to pay more than it cost producers to provide.
Huh? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition?wprov=sfla1
How incredibly evil have the Left become.
Our healthcare being taken over by these types of racist Democrats in the government will be the end of White people.
This BravoCharlieDelta guy seems to be approaching the Full LaVoy . . .
We are in the years before the French Revolution, or the Bolshevik Revolution, or the Chinese Revolution.
I'm not an ugly, envious midwit like in France, or a Jew like in Russia, or even a Jew like in China. I am the western civilization, heterosexual ideal so I expect to be a target of the Left.
I'm not an ignorant statist bootlicker like you.
old (fake) news: Lenin was Jewish!
new (still fake) news: Mao Zedong was Jewish!
LOL
https://jewishjournal.com/news/worldwide/179731/
“Mao’s Jews”
https://www.jta.org/2017/11/06/global/what-was-the-jewish-role-in-1917-russian-revolution-moscow-museum-gives-a-full-picture
You people are so ignorant. That's how they keep you licking the boots of the State.
If you weren't such an ignorant jackass yourself, you might know of some reasons why Jews despised the czarist regime.
A pity that the Leninists didn't overthrow the Czars, but instead the budding democracy that had overthrown them.
Brett,
You might want to educate yourself on the role of Jews in the Russian Revolution, and in the preceding years. Here is an article to get you started. Some points:
From the voting data we do have it is possible to conclude several crucial points: First, the Bolsheviks had very little support among the Jewish population, possibly the lowest amount of any of the multiple parties vying for support “on the Jewish street.” And this was despite the fact that many of the Bolsheviks’ most important leaders were Jews.... More Jews, though hardly a great number, supported the Mensheviks, the less radically Marxist half of the Russian Social Democratic Party, headed by a Jew, Julius Martov, who opposed Lenin’s stance on violent revolution but shared the Bolsheviks’ anti-nationalist stance. Far more Jews, though still a relatively small percentage of the population, supported the Bund—the Jewish socialist party whose stance on socialism was all but identical to the Mensheviks, ...
Far more Jews, though still a minority, supported the liberal party known as the Kadets (the acronym for the Constitutional Democrats), who were dedicated to liberal constitutionalism, universal suffrage, and equal rights for the minorities of the Empire. In its early years, the party included several prominent Jewish intellectuals and lawyers in its leadership ranks, a matter which attracted a great deal of support from the Jewish population as a whole.
So guess what? Things were complicated, and there were Jews in a number of parties, but not so many were Bolsheviks.
Yeah, I'm just pointing out that having reason to despise the Czarist regime didn't in any way, shape, or form imply supporting the Leninists. And I guess most Jews understood that. A pity they didn't all understand it, but that would have been unrealistic to hope for.
An amazing number of people have somehow gotten the impression that 'at least the communists overthrew the Czars'. Because the communists were busy rewriting history, I guess. It's aways worth remembering that, no, they didn't. They overthrew the democratic movement that had actually done that.
Yeah, I’m just pointing out that having reason to despise the Czarist regime didn’t in any way, shape, or form imply supporting the Leninists.
No. What it did imply was strong sympathies for the various anti-czarist groups in the early 20th Century. These predictably factionalized in several way, and Jews, not unlike others, found themselves in various factions.
I guess most Jews understood that. A pity they didn’t all understand it, but that would have been unrealistic to hope for.
Well, it’s a pity that a lot of Russian Orthodox believers, and atheists, and whoever else, also supported the Leninists. Few blame the Bolshevik revolution on them. So why the focus on the Jews, I wonder.
And the fact is when the country is in turmoil it’s unreasonable to expect perfect foresight from people.
I never thought I'd see the day when someone would excuse the Holodamir but here we are.
Using race as a proxy for basically ANY physical characteristic that can be directly measured is a lazy shortcut, unless maybe you're just doing population statistics. Using it as a proxy in a context like this, where getting things right is important, and the expense of the measurement is relatively trivial in the overall picture, is even worse.
That said, if you're NOT going to actually measure GFR, but only estimate it, it actually IS irresponsible to throw out any available variable that has significant predictive strength. Now, they say that using the race variable, " has the potential to overestimate Black patients’ kidney function by as much as 16 percent", but, duh, it's an estimate! That means sometimes it's going to be wrong. How does it do on average?
They don't say, which I find something of a tell.
On ending the promise to donors to put them at the head of the list if they ever need a transplant?
Yeah, that's just evil.
Yeah, I was going to say this. If you're potentially going to do a kidney transplant, how hard is it to measure muscle mass? Considering the size of the waitlist it's not like taking an hour to measure it will matter.
The medical community tends to slip into doing things the lazy way on occasion, I've noticed. Well, I suppose they're not the only industry that's true of.
Seems to have become pretty much universal.
I don’t believe laziness is the main issue. It’s more that everyday practitioners are supposed to follow established protocols rather than independently think about the science and come up with their own calculations. And if something goes wrong, “I followed the standard procedure” is a much better defense than “I thought I could improve on the standard method, but screwed up”.
Sure, but why do the established protocols get updated to be worse, occasionally?
The laziness was in adopting the plus factor in the first place based on limited, flawed studies and then not doing any rigorous research to see if the discriminatory plus factor had a legitimate basis at all.
Basically, it was lazily adopted and then the medical establishment was too lazy to actually verify whether the discrimination had even a modicum of justification.
I wouldn't say legitimacy because this system applies based on the self-identification of the patient or the racial classification assigned by the physician neither of which are, in any rigorous or objective sense, determined by actual genetics or physiology. Hence, one twin may get assigned the plus factor, the other may not, if one is "passably" light skinned and the other is dark skinned even though there is no reason to believe their underlying genetics different in any relevant aspect (given I've seen nothing suggesting skin color is related to kidney function rather than the hypothesis, far from proven, that those with more melanin are more likely to have other characteristics (higher creatine levels due greater muscle mass) which are associated with better kidney function despite similar lab tests. The whole enterprise had dubious legitimacy in the first place as the assignment of people to racial categories wasn't rigorously done in the studies and isn't rigorously done in doctor's offices, not least because there really is no way to rigorously assign people to one of four racial categories, particularly when there are as many "multiracial" people as there are in the US.
Yes, "People are Saying" that
Isn't the real question whether the new method is more accurate than the previous one? I didn't see a claim that it is more accurate, just that (as you say) the old estimates were imperfect.
As I said, that's the "tell", because if they could say that the new method was more accurate, they certainly would have.
The "tell" you mentioned was that they gave a worst-case error for the old estimation method, not how often it occurred -- which is an important tell also, but I think not as critical as the relative accuracy.
No, the real question is whether the original studies were valid and whether the use of the differing formulas for “black” and “non-black” patients has any validity to begin with.
Consider this: Pursuant to the criteria adopted pursuant to the limited, flawed 1999 studies, should Halle Berry (white English mother and African-American father) be given the plus factor or not? How about her daughter (who has a white French-Canadian father)?
In reality, those assignments depend on how she and her daughter self-identify (which, of course, has little relation to their genetic makeup) or, often, how the doctor categorizes the patient (which undoubtedly is done in a haphazard way that has little to no relation to genetics).
A lazily conceptualized and implemented policy can be ditched because it was lazy in the first place. The burden is on the people who want to continue to discriminate against black people in favor of “non-black” people. And to meet that burden, it seems a necessary first step is showing that you can sensibly categorize people as either black or non-black in any medically or scientifically rigorous sense. As the Halle Berry example shows, you can’t.
That's a nice, valid, real question, indeed, which I notice that the people changing the policy didn't bother asking.
You must not have read much about the impetus to change the policies. That has very much been the question. And, again, the onus is on the one's advocating for the race-based policy to have asked it and have an answer to it. They haven't because they can't.
You've made a strong argument, the problem is see with it is that you're inferring intent from the outcome.
Disparate impact is such an obviously nonsensical, and gerrymandered principle that it's cringe to see someone seriously rely upon it.
“You’ve made a strong argument”
Thank you.
“the problem is see with it is that you’re inferring intent from the outcome.”
I actually don’t think anyone involved had bad intent. I actually suspect they had good intent. But they did a bad thing because they weren’t rigorous.
I am extremely frustrated that someone’s first thought when proposing a policy that will disadvantage a historically disadvantaged group isn’t: Are we really sure about this? And are we being rigorous about implementing this in a non-arbitrary way that doesn’t ultimately just penalize people for having the wrong skin color?
I just think they were oblivious/lazy, not that they had bad intent.
Read Under the Skin by Linda Vallarosa for some history on how racist ideas have persisted into the current practice of medicine. It’s hard to stomach reading some of the horrors “researchers” visited upon slaves, for example. But I also think it’s important to be aware of the past, including because if the people developing the plus factor had been aware of that history, maybe they would have been more careful and rigorous.
"a policy that will disadvantage a historically disadvantaged group"
But if the proxy were actually accurate, using it wouldn't disadvantage the group, it would just maintain things at parity, rather than them being, instead, advantaged relative to other groups.
"But if the proxy were actually accurate, using it wouldn’t disadvantage the group"
Not actually.
We have starting point A. A proxy of group B membership is used to change things which makes it less likely that you get a particular benefit if you are in group B. You are now disadvantaged by being a member of group B due to the change, relative to the situation without using the proxy.
You are trying to make the point that, in some god's-eye view of the world, if the proxy is "accurate" (by definition it cannot be perfectly accurate) then if the powers that be don't use the proxy, members of group B will get more benefits than they "should."
But that's not really true. What will happen is that some member of group B, for whom the proxy is accurate will get more benefit than they "should" (i.e., if we could perfectly determine kidney function in this case), but other members of group B, for whom the proxy is inaccurate, will be disadvantaged by using the proxy.
This is highly problematic in the United States, with the history of the United States, when the proxy you are using is "Black American".
The problem I see with your reasoning is that you are treating "Black Americans" as a group who either gets a group advantage or a group disadvantage or precisely the right group benefits, as a group. But by using an imperfect proxy of race, you are absolutely disadvantaging individual Black people by implementing a race-based system that disadvantages their racial "group" relative to the baseline.
I thought you were someone more concerned than most with wanting to treat people like individuals and not have us all divide into competing racial groups.
(And aside from all that, just as a matter of English, "when proposing a policy that will disadvantage a historically disadvantaged group" pretty clearly refers to the baseline and, yes, if you are going to make a change that disadvantages a historically disadvantaged group, it seems extremely important, from a moral perspective, to ensure that using a race-based proxy has a high degree of accuracy for the quality that you are trying to measure. You didn't address that, but it's important enough to type out again.)
As my lead comment clearly indicated, I DON'T think this proxy should be used, because it's a proxy for something that's actually measurable. (Relative muscle mass.) And not even all that hard to measure these days. (The actual filtration rate is a lot harder to measure, and yet some hospitals DO measure it, instead of calculating an estimate...)
I then proceeded to discuss the legitimacy of using a race proxy if one ignored that no proxy was actually needed. Just to explore the topic of why it shouldn't be used, because, frankly, I think you've got a bad reason there.
To understand why, let us suppose that the underlying theory behind the proxy, that blacks had higher relative muscle mass than other races, and thus their filtration rate was being inaccurately calculated using the usual formula, was true. (If it's not true, that's the end of the story, and all would agree on that.)
If that were the case, you'd be making a trade between 'optics' and "deaths", and I think that's rather immoral.
And to be clear here, if the original theory behind the proxy was accurate, then dispensing with the proxy and instead actually measuring the muscle mass, or even proceeding directly to measuring filtration rate, will fail your 'optics' test, because it will exhibit 'disparate impact', and you're operating on a sort of non-retrogression principle which says that blacks, if ever they've had an actual advantage, can't be deprived of it. Only disadvantages can be gotten rid of.
And that's an immoral, literally racist, rule.
"If that were the case, you’d be making a trade between ‘optics’ and “deaths”, and I think that’s rather immoral."
You don't understand my argument at all.
1. We agree the proxy shouldn't be used. (It's actually not as easy to measure the relevant physical attributes as you suggest, but it definitely makes sense to go through that trouble rather than the race based disadvantage some places are still using.)
2. The race-based policy was adopted based on very limited studies of dubious validity given small size, lack of replication, etc.
3. Even if "blacks had higher relative muscle mass than other races", it doesn't justify penalizing this Black person who doesn't have higher relative muscle mass. You are disadvantaging some individuals for characteristics of other individuals and their only commonality is self-identified race (or physician identified race via their own idiosyncratic criteria). (Again, the chances that Halle Berry's daughter identifies as Black, fairly high, that she would be identified as Black by a physician treating her when accompanied by her mother, even higher. The chances that she is genetically more like a native Ethiopian than a direct descendant of King Louis XIV is pretty small. Yet, the policy we are discussing is putting her in the same category as the Ethiopian, not the Frenchman.)
(Just as it isn't justified to deprive some number of Black dialysis patients of a kidney transplant because Black people have (in the last two years, but not previously) given living donations of kidneys at a lower rate than white people. A stupid argument some people have made in these threads.)
4. The United States has a 300 year history of using race as a proxy for various attributes to disadvantage of Black Americans relative to white Americans. Every one of those uses has been wrong. But in 1999 someone proposed: "but this one is gonna be the time we get it right" and they roll with it based on 3 small studies and implement their race as proxy using haphazard categorization via self-identification or a physician's guess regarding the patient's self-identification.
Maybe before you try something that has a 300 year history of being used to disastrous and morally disgusting purposes and outcomes, you should think more than twice about it and consider several times over whether (a) the proxy is accurate, (b) there isn't another proxy that is better, (c) your implementation involves rigorous, scientifically literate and accurate categorization of people in to the proxy groups (both in the studies upon which you rely and implementation of this race-based system you are proposing), and (d) you're really fucking sure the race-based proxy is accurate and there isn't a better one.
It doesn't appear any of those steps were met.
It also appears it would be impossible for those steps to be met in this case.
5. As I set forth in more detail elsewhere, the history of discrimination affects health outcomes and socioeconomic status of the descendants of people who have been subject to discrimination. Using a race-based proxy is quite likely to measure the effects of past discrimination rather than the thing you think you are measuring. This is especially bad because if you then adopt raced-based policies which disadvantage that group, you are simply creating more "evidence" to impose even further race-based policies that disadvantage that group in the opposite of a virtuous cycle, a vicious cycle, as it were.
6. You'll notice "optics" didn't make an appearance once in this list.
You're obviously reading for an argument you want to find and refute rather than the argument I am making.
To respond to the argument you make:
To understand why, let us suppose that the underlying theory behind the proxy, that blacks had higher relative muscle mass than other races, and thus their filtration rate was being inaccurately calculated using the usual formula, was true. (If it’s not true, that’s the end of the story, and all would agree on that.)
That’s a lot of supposing. In fact, I pointed out that each of those things you suppose are not true. End of story.
It can’t be true because “blacks” as you so anachronistically have it, aren’t a genetically monolithic group and it is literally impossible to develop a scientifically rigorous genetic categorization of people based on the crude social construct of three (four) races.
In this case, they didn’t even try to create any rigorous categorization, but it is all based on self-identification or a physician’s guess about self-identification.
Further, suppose someone researched whether Southern Baptists showed higher levels of the waste product creatine in their blood and they did. Someone hypothesized, but didn’t prove, this was because Southern Baptists were typically more muscular, so have higher baseline creatine levels in their blood. Then when people go into a doctor’s office to get on the kidney transplant list, they are asked if they are Southern Baptist or not-Southern Baptist. If they say they are Southern Baptist, they get a 16% plus factor added to their eGFR which makes many of them ineligible to go on the transplant list despite lab results (and, for many of them, genetics and body types that are exactly the same as non-Southern Baptists in all relevant respects). And you’re saying it would be immoral not to use this proxy of being “Southern Baptist”? Because, not to use it, would “be making a trade between ‘optics’ and ‘deaths’, and [you] think that’s rather immoral”? Seriously?
For your argument to work, you have to show that categorizing people based on their self-identified race makes more medical/scientific sense than categorizing people by their religion for medical purposes (which we presumably agree would be stupid and immoral).
It’s not an issue of optics. It’s an issue of bad science and bad medicine that has the effect, though not the purpose (presumably), of furthering entrenching historical racial disadvantages which further contributes to racial disparities in socioeconomic and health outcomes. Which continuing or increased disparities will, of course, then be used to implement even more race-based policies based on purportedly hard-nosed pragmatic analysis of statistics which treat people as members of a socially constructed group rather than as individuals based on their individual characteristics.
See Brett.
You can actually make sense when you stop thinking about conspiracies.
Still, there may be more to the GFR business than muscle mass.
Race was originally included in eGFR calculations because clinical trials demonstrated that people who self-identify as Black/African American can have, on average, higher levels of creatinine in their blood. It was thought the reason why was due to differences in muscle mass, diet, and the way the kidneys eliminate creatinine. Since a patient’s race is not always used when laboratory tests are ordered, laboratories used different eGFR calculations for African American and non-African American and included both numbers in their lab results.
The use of race in calculating eGFR has been a subject of debate. Race is not a biological concept, but a social construct. Using race as a factor for calculating eGFR does not account for the diversity within communities of color. Also, people who self-identify as multiracial might not want to be put in a single racial bucket.
If race is a social construct then surely I can identify as any race I wish.
It's a social construct, not an individual construct. People will treat you according to your perceived "race" according to the societal construct, not according to your preferences.
And it occurs to me that, by donating a kidney, you actually increase your odds of later needing a transplant (because now you only have 1 instead of 2.) So, yeah, they deserve to be at the head of the list just for that.
I agree with this. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't agree with this.
Because whites donate a lot of kidneys, and we're the majority of the population, we're by far the majority of the people who benefit from this arrangement.
Now, granted, because you're not permitted to donate a kidney unless you're healthy, and if you donate a kidney you're probably going to be careful with the one you've got left, the people benefiting from this priority are a small portion of the waiting list.
But race hustlers don't CARE about the actual numbers, or the justice of the individual cases. They care about opportunities to foment racial hatred so that they can keep profitably hustling.
And they've been working the marks long enough that they're not listening to the voices of sanity anymore. So it largely works.
You're good at imagining other people's arguments in a way that you think makes you look reasonable and them foolish, especially people who you randomly deem "race hustlers". So...
Do you have an actual quote from anyone objecting to giving donors priority if they later need a transplant?
I object?
Or, rather, I object to this policy of allowing donors to receive some tangible benefits from selling their kidney (in this case, a recipient-priority insurance policy), but not others (no cash payments allowed.
It's one of the same reasons I objected to the suggestion in New York (I think) that organ donors could get parole earlier. Or the idea in multiple states, including New York again, that one can receive cash reimbursements for donation costs, but not other cash benefits.
So, now medical decisions will be decided by a color wheel?
"discrimination may be justified because there are genuine physical differences between racial and ethnic groups"
MADNESS!!!
Next you will claim there are differences between men and women.
Are you talking about those born male or female, or those that choose to live as one later in life?
Measuring Actual GFR is difficult, like measuring someones Actual Blood Volume. Ahh, one of my least favorite subjects in Med School, the "Beans"
Elephant in the room is most Chronic Renal Failure is due to poorly controlled Hypertension/Diabetes, you figure out the rest.
There's some unlucky peoples with Polycystic kidneys, Glomerulonephritis, other Zebras, but 90% of Kidney Transplants could be prevented with 50 cents of BP/DM medication (I'd say "Diet/Exercise" but I'm a realist)
And one of the few areas where its OK to admit there are differences between the Races (Gotta keep em Separated) and it doesn't help that the "First Line" treatment of Hypertension in Afro-Amuricans, Hydrochlorothiazide (HCTZ) also is the cheapest, and usually people like cheap drugs except when you're in a group that got prescribed sugar pills for Syphillis,
and HCTZ can cause Gout, Kidney Stones, increases Bad Cholesterol, and makes you piss like the proverbial Race Horse.
Is it difficult to measure it?
... is it difficult to get an estimate which is better than just using the person's race, though?
Not hard at all.
The thing that annoys me is that "Don't use a proxy because you can measure it directly" is a good argument. "Don't use a proxy because it's not perfect" is a really BAD argument.
But it's that latter argument they're making.
The question in using a proxy isn't whether it's perfect, it's whether it has decent predictive strength. Nothing they said in objecting to it went to whether the predictive strength was good or not.
Brett, it is bad to use race as a proxy for a medical attribute when doing so disadvantages a racial group that has been subject to systemic disadvantages through the entire history of this country.
Any use of race as a proxy to disadvantage black people is highly suspect and shouldn't be used absent evidence the medical establishment simply don't have. If you read how the standard was originally developed, it was on incredibly flimsy evidence and then just got entrenched. It is scandalous, frankly, that they just decided to add a plus factor to black patient's kidney function based on a small, flawed studies:
"The 1999 landmark study that proposed the eGFR and included a coefficient for Black patients did so on the basis of 3 flawed, small, poor quality studies, Eneanya said, and these faulty assumptions were carried forward through later iterations." (https://www.ajmc.com/view/flawed-racial-assumptions-in-egfr-have-care-implications)
The other obvious flaw is treating race as some sort of objective or scientific category when it is not. It treats a Kenyan the same as a Nigerian and both of them the same as Halle Barry, despite that making no genetic or scientific sense. Basically, they took one small study, categorized people based on skin color and then began penalizing people based on skin color rather than any actual genetic or relevant physical characteristic.
The plus factor in calculating eGFR was an abomination when adopted and it's outrageous it is still used by anyone.
My view is that it's bad to use a proxy for a medical attribute when it's a bad proxy, or it isn't necessary to use a proxy in the first place. Period. End of story.
I mean, I kinda get where you're coming from, but it's an irrational place, and the irrationality leads to REAL harms, not 'looks bad' harms.
Suppose somebody falls off a cliff, and they're hanging from a root. You've got a rope with a loop in it you can lower down and bring around their body, and save their life.
But you can't do that because it looks like a noose, and blacks have been subject to lynching. Oh, well, guess they fall to their death, but the optics are better.
That's the sort of reasoning I see you employing, and I reject it.
The problem with this particular proxy is that it's not that great a proxy, and use of a proxy in the first place isn't necessary. NOT that 'it looks bad'.
Brett,
Did you read NOVA's second paragraph?
Any use of race as a proxy to disadvantage black people is highly suspect and shouldn’t be used absent evidence the medical establishment simply don’t have. If you read how the standard was originally developed, it was on incredibly flimsy evidence and then just got entrenched. It is scandalous, frankly, that they just decided to add a plus factor to black patient’s kidney function based on a small, flawed studies:
It's not clear what you find objectionable there.
But the way that's worded seems to imply that they'd be OK with it if the proxy instead disadvantaged white people, or people whose blood pressure was an odd number, or pretty much anything *not* a disadvantaged class. If it's bad, it's bad because it's bad, not because of *who* it disadvantages.
I do think race-based proxies are worse than age or height-based proxies. The history of the United States will give you an idea why.
Which is not to say randomly discriminating against anyone else for any non-valid reason is good (and, in fact, it is bad). But race-based discrimination has a history so has second order effects in addition to the direct effect on the individual discriminated against that make it even more problematic.
"But you can’t do that because it looks like a noose, and blacks have been subject to lynching. Oh, well, guess they fall to their death, but the optics are better.
That’s the sort of reasoning I see you employing, and I reject it."
If you see me using that reasoning, you're the irrational one.
As bernard11 pointed out, I didn't say you shouldn't use certain proxies or other things because somebody's feelings might be hurt. I said you should be extremely careful to ensure that race is an accurate proxy for something (and not just because I am not aware of any situation in which it is a good proxy for anything) because it has been so widely and frequently misused as a proxy and a mistake in that regard further disadvantages people who've already been historically disadvantaged by the misuse of race as a proxy.
Maybe read what is written rather than simply looking for reasons not to agree with criticism of a sloppy use of race-based proxies that, in fact, disadvantaged Black people who needed a kidney transplant. (If you spend all your time looking for "wokeness", you'll never get anywhere in life. Well, maybe governor of Florida....fair point. But you won't make a positive contribution to the world.)
In fairness, doesn’t muscle turn to fat as one ages?
I’m really wondering what these weight trained female athletes (of all races) will look like in 20-30 years….
And as to HZTZ, add low sodium and consequences of that…
"In fairness, doesn’t muscle turn to fat as one ages?"
No.
Next you're going to say we can't drop a camera into a woman's stomach to see a developing fetus.
Well, muscle CAN turn to fat: I've got a torn bicep, and that's currently happening to the part that's no longer connected and working.
" Summary
Since fat and muscle tissue have entirely different cellular makeups, you can’t turn fat into muscle or vice versa."
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/does-fat-turn-into-muscle#muscle-vs-fat
Still, that's not what the medical report said. "Minimal edema within the biceps musculature with component of mild fatty atrophy."
Yes, I'm aware that it's actually fat infiltrating the unused muscle tissue, not the muscle cells turning into fat cells. But "the muscle" IS turning into fat.
Now you're starting to sound like SarcastrO, Nige and the Queen.
Bumble, you don't know what you are talking about. I have a ruptured biceps tendon. Functionally it's probably about the same injury Bellmore reports. One of the best shoulder orthopedists in the nation diagnosed mine, and explained exactly what you heard from Bellmore. Atrophied muscle gets replaced by fat.
Fortunately for me, the bicep comes in two sections, and only one section tore. So the arm is still fully functional, the only issue I've got is cramping in the torn portion if I lift something that's too heavy, because it's still trying to work, anyway. Even that's gradually going away as the disconnected muscle atrophies.
No, Muscle doesn't "Turn into" Fat
as you get older your muscle mass tends to decrease, unless you're Tom Brady/Ah-nold Scwharz-N-word, and your fat tissue tends to increase (see, Gore, Al)
Muscle and Fat (In the Medical Biz we call it "Adipose") are structurally different.
Body Fat % is very easy to measure with a Bioimpedance Scale you can get on Amazon for $39, or you can measure Skin folds with Calipers, both methods within a few % of the "Gold Standard" weighing in water, which requires low-fart diet beforehand, holding your breath under water,
Problem is, nobody thinks they're as fat as they really are, had to measure Marines all the time, who exceded the maximum 18%, and all thought they were Bo Jackson.
Frank 16%, give or take 10%
the “Gold Standard” weighing in water, which requires low-fart diet beforehand, holding your breath under water,
No beans?
We done need none freegin beenies,
No, they (Duh) increase Gas in the Intestines (Duh) which ways more, and (falsely) decreases the Non-Fat %
And Peoples already get paid for "Donating" Plasma. Yes, like Oil, J-hovah will make more Plasma for you, unless you're unfortunate enough to get Liver Failure, where he won't make you a new Liver (J-hovah's not only a Jealous Surpreme Being, but a busy one)
And believe it or not, in Med School I got paid for donating (Redacted) the new field of "Reproductive Medicine" was in umm, it's "Embryonic" stage, and needed umm "Raw" materials.
If you broke it down to $$/time, probably the highest rate I've been paid for anything, hey, I was 22 at the time.
Frank "There's more where that came from"
The thought that there might be Drackman bastards out there must be driving many VC commenters crazy.
Now even active homosexuals can donate their gay blood.
The Left is literally willing to kill people for their disgusting ideology.
They've been doing it for years, how do you think Arthur Ashe caught the HIV-ie?? (Read "Portrait in Motion" Arthur definitely liked the (White) Ladies) Its amazing not everyone who had Bypass Surgery from 1983-1993 didn't get it.
"They essentially claim that the longstanding system for such transplants is racist, pointing to how black patients make up 30 percent of the dialysis population and transplant wait list but receive a smaller fraction of kidney transplants…."
But what percentage do they DONATE???
True equity would be getting back the percentage you are putting in.
So they need to make some change for equity: "As of 2021, 15.1% of kidney donors were black, which is ... larger ... than the black percentage of the US populations (12%)."
Yes, but they are consuming 30%.
I’m sure they’d prefer not to have to 'consume' any, but there you go.
No, "black patients make up 30 percent of the dialysis population and transplant wait list" means they are 30% of those in need, not that they get 30% of the transplants. One would expect that percentage to be higher if they are waiting longer to get a transplant.
Do you have those figures for Baptists, people from Missouri, Italian-Americans, .....?
Why don't we make sure that every conceivable group only gets the share of transplants it provides?
That way we could probably cut the number of transplants substantially. Cut the costs.
How quickly the "color blind" and "look at the left dividing us into groups" ilk suddenly makes wide ranging judgments and generalizations based on group identity. It's almost like all their talk of colorblind policies and wanting us all to just be one big happy American group is utter bullshit.
Dr. Ed,
"They" aren't consuming anything. Some people, who happen to be Black, need kidneys. But other people, who are Black and non-Black, donate healthy kidneys. The groups don't overlap at all (except, perhaps, for the relatively rare occasions when a donor later needs a kidney transplant). But you treat them as if they do because you are obsessed with treating race as a sensible way to group people.....but only when it fit's your ideological purpose. Otherwise, you hate it and it's a failing of "the left".
If one looks at justice for individuals, the correct answer is either to save the maximum number of lives, or to gain the maximum number of years (thereby prioritizing the lives of the young over the lives of the old.) One can do this calculation incorrectly, and if a wrong step is racially-relatedf, then the calculation is wrongly racially biased.
HOWEVER, if the calculation is done correctly, the percentage of kidney recipients who happen to be black is irrelevant. If you have a choice between saving four people or five people, you go for five people regardless of their respective races.
If you are alleging that is more important to be just to the groups than to save lives - a proposition with which I disagree - THEN, in order to be just to the groups, each group gets out what they put in. If that means you save 3 people from group A instead of 5 from group B, because group A contributed more kidneys than are desperately needed and could go to people who are very likely to need kidneys later rather than people who need kidneys now, then that's what happens. That's just what group justice IS!
In order to be just to groups it is often necessary to be monstrous to individual people. Much better to be just to individuals.
First, your comment isn’t responsive to anything I said. Dr. Ed was the one who asserted being just to groups was the goal and, therefore, he agrees with you that justice requires the group getting out what the group puts in. I said that was a stupid and immoral way to look at things, particularly when the groups being discussed are arbitrary, unscientific racial groups.
Second, “the correct answer is either to save the maximum number of lives, or to gain the maximum number of years (thereby prioritizing the lives of the young over the lives of the old” is an assertion, not an established or obvious truth. It’s why most people consider the trolley car problem, or at least certain versions of it, unresolvable.
Third, even taking your utilitarian argument as some established truth, it relies on perfect information.
Once you acknowledge imperfect information, then you know you might be wrong in your calculation (and it makes the calculation much more complicated). So if you adopt racial categorizations (which are simply not good proxies for genetic categorization, particularly when, as in the case of eGFR plus factors, the categorization is inconsistently based on either subjective self-identification or equally, but differently, subjective categorization by the treating physician), then you know there is a high probability your math is wrong (both generally and in lots of specific cases).
And so we have a sort of trolley problem. Are you going to choose to kill members of a racial group, because they are members of a racial group on the basis that members of that group may be statistically more likely to have genes or physiological features than another group, but you aren’t really sure and you definitely haven’t put forth any effort to determine if that is the case for this individual (though you could)?
Moreover, you know you will necessarily make a mistake and unjustly deprive some of the people in that group of a kidney transplant (or whatever) because the groups are arbitrary and many members who self-identify as belonging to the group don’t share the genetic feature you think might be more common in that group (but don’t know). So with imperfect information (in this case, highly imperfect information), you are going to knowingly be unjust to individuals because they are members of a disfavored group, because you think probably, on average, you might save more life-years than you destroy?
Also, you have the further problem, when using race to make your utilitarian decisions, that prior uses of racial categorizations have contributed to current racial disparities in health outcomes and life expectancy. Therefore, you are merely compounding the original sin of an arbitrary racial classification by now further penalizing people who belong to a historically disadvantaged group. At least part of the differences in life expectancy of racial groups is socioeconomic status and, as statistics show pretty clearly, your parents socioeconomic status is a strong predictor of children’s socioeconomic status in the United States. Thus, economic discrimination and discrimination in education against parents and grandparents, which undoubtedly has occurred, affected the socioeconomic outcomes (on average) of current generations of Black Americans. And socioeconomic status is correlated with life expectancy and specific diseases. Thus, you are further entrenching these disparities by adopting racial categorizations. Because now this generation is more likely to not get a kidney transplant and so be on dialysis longer and die sooner and so lose that income and further skew income and life expectancy tables making the next generation of utilitarians like you even more certain that you should discriminate against the disfavored group. And you’ll feel proud of yourself for doing that.
That’s morally monstrous. Don’t be that monster.
Racial categorizations generally, and particularly in medicine, are inherently suspect, both because of the rampant misuse and abusive use of them in the past and the inherently arbitrary nature of assigning any individual American to a “race” for medical purposes.
(And there is tons of research backing up the arbitrariness of the categories from a genetic standpoint which is why the medical community has been abandoning the use of “racial” categories for years now. The eGFR episode being one example of a not yet fully abandoned racial categorization.)
And shorter response:
“In order to be just to groups it is often necessary to be monstrous to individual people. Much better to be just to individuals.”
If you mean that, then you’ve repudiated your own first paragraph.
“If one looks at justice for individuals, [do utilitarian analysis which may use race].”
You are kidding yourself that this is justice for individuals. Utilitarianism is very nearly the opposite of doing justice for individuals. It is justice for groups of individuals (albeit usually the group of all human individuals, or sentient individuals, or what have you), ala the trolley car problem.
It isn’t just to the individual on track 2 to flip the switch so he dies and the 100 people on track 1 live who otherwise would have died (just generally speaking, but particularly if the lone person took precautions to be on the track where he knew the switch wasn’t flipped and he didn’t know there were 100 people on the other track or that a “utilitarian Samaritan” would be flipping the switch; and even more unjust if the 100 people knew they were on the wrong track, knew the lone person was on the right track, but chose to go down that track 1 because they knew a utilitarian would see them on the track 1 and save them, but your “save the most people” only allows for killing the one person unjustly).
So, actually, justice has nothing to do with your utilitarian analysis. You’re simply trying to maximize the years of life, regardless of justice. You are explicitly maximizing the good of the group at the cost of justice to the individual. Which you just labeled a morally monstrous thing to do.
We are at least agreed that both Dr. Ed’s weird conception of justice to racial groups and your utilitarian analysis of this issue are pretty bad from a coherent moral perspective.
Why not just offer donors a payment when they die? Sign up now folks, and you get a guaranteed $50,000 to be distributed as your will sees fit.
The cost for this would just be baked into insurance.
If your insurance plan has a guaranteed payout of $50k at death, guess how much your premiums are going to increase by?
I don't understand how grown Liberals can be so economically illiterate. Insurance companies are not banks, nor savings plans. If you give your money to an insurance company for a fixed, known cost, you aren't saving any money. You're increasing your costs and you're decreasing your freedom.
Because an 80 year old Kidney is about as good as an 80 year old car, except the car's probably been taken better care of. People's want a healthy kidney, which is why Donor-Cycle use should be encouraged.
And paying young people to sign donor cards up front is probably more efficient by far than offering them a life insurance policy, since they aren't expecting to die in the first place, so they're kind of discounting the insurance payoff.
I'm glad Ilya is here to remind us why libertarians are mostly reviled. This policy proposal is ghoulish. "Let desperate poor people be forced to sell their body parts."
Stop forcing us to read your garbage hot takes, oppressor.
Who is using force?
Are you one of those people that thinks that the poor are unable to make decisions for themselves, and thus need your enlightened wisdom to guide them through life?
'Well, I see here you still have two kidneys, you want to qualify for unemployment support come back when you're down to one.'
Can you imagine what the sort of people who exploit poor people using predatory lending could do with an organ market? Also there’ll be an organ market on the stock exchange, organ futures would get bought and sold and prices will fluctuate based on high-level financial transactions rather than medical needs, they’ll get inflated and then nobody below the super-rich will be able to afford them but everybody’ll be rushing to sell, and then it’ll crash and the middle class will be struggling to pay back the mortgages they took out on their organs before the bailifs come with their sharp knives and pile them into the back of a rusty ambulance for a quick surgery, and everyone who sold during the boom will get screwed by the hidden after-care costs which only go up, and the insurance policies they were obliged to take out and have to keep paying for are worse than useless, and they’ll have to sell more and more organs, crucial ones replaced with cheap and wonky electric organs that can get bricked at any time if the tech co that made them goes bust. It’s all good old market capitalism nobody getting forced to do anything!
Certain libertarians seemingly reject the concept of unalienable rights. If we own it, we can sell it seems be their credo.
But one should not be allowed to sell their non-renewable body parts any more than they can sell themselves into slavery.
While libertarians should promote free enterprise, they ought also recognize usury and other forms of unjust economic transactions.
Your second paragraph does not follow from anything - it's just a plain assertion, and isn't even consistent unless you also think people should not be allowed to 'donate' their "non-renewable body parts".
And why do you think "renewable" parts are acceptable, but others are not? If I lose my blood, I'm harmed, but not to any significant extent. If I lose a kidney, I'm also harmed - but again, not to any significant extent. The risk of having one kidney is very low.
Incidentally, do you think people should be allowed to consume things or perform tasks that do permanent harm to their bodies? Alcohol, sports...
"Who is using force?"
Taking what someone said literally and then pretending to misunderstand it is not an endearing trait. I clearly meant that Ilya's policy opens up yet another door for the elites to take advantage of desperate people.
"Are you one of those people that thinks that the poor are unable to make decisions for themselves"
No, I am looking out for the pool's interests by protecting them from a predatory policy. 100% of the people who lose an organ will be poor and desperate and 100% of the people who benefit from receiving it will be wealthy elites. It will never, ever go the other way.
I'm sorry, under what circumstances would you describe someone as being forced to do something and not mean they were subjected to force to induce that behavior? If you didn't mean it, you are welcome to correct yourself. But attacking me because I (apparently foolishly) thought your post accurately reflected your thoughts. Perhaps you should concentrate more on accurately conveying your thoughts, and less on emotional hyperbole?
As for the other question, I see that you are putting yourself above those ignorant poors that might decisions you don't like. "Just looking out for" by making things you think they shouldn't do illegal. Such a burden on, looking out for them.
And your reason is that poor people will sell things to earn money when rich people won't? Well, no shit. (I'm going to assume you don't actually mean "never", because if I point out all the rich people and organizations that perform charity, I'm sure you'll attack me again).
Rich people buy things more than poor people. Poor people sell their belongings more than rich people. A few moments of thought would show this applies to things like family jewelry, cars, or inherited property as well as anything else. Tell me, are you also going to "look out" for the same people when they need money and don't have it? Or does your "looking out" only extend to denying people opportunities?
Not to mention that according to the UNOS, the vast majority of people needing organ transplants are old people from the middle and lower classes. Not the "rich".
As I asked Mike H., do you also think poor people should be prevented from harming themselves in other ways? Sports, drugs, or 'donating' organs for no money, for example.
Rich people have always demanded that workers sell them their bodies, this is just a logical extension of that.
The rich elites are the ones wearing the boots you love to lick.
You voted for a guy with a gold toilet.
I know. I voted for an outsider and not one of the wealthy, powerful, and evil Federal Class.
You're not allowed to criticize your leader, if you do, your child could be murdered by the CCP.
In fact, don't y'all eat babies? I know y'all eat dogs and cats, but I heard y'all eat babies too. Is that true?
An 'outsider' with a gold toilet. A reality show star. A real estate developer. Casino owner. So very very 'outside.' He just made you feel all warm and fuzzy about being a racist anti-semite fantasist.
You see what the Federal Class has been doing to him since 2015 and you think he's one of them?
I've smelt farts smarter than you.
You voted for the guy behind the Trump Foundation and Trump University and who went bankrupt multiple times to avoid paying debts and you're shocked that he turns out to be a dodgy sleazebag constantly trying to keep one step ahead of his legal troubles?
That seems like a new argument you're making now.
Lmoa tell your Jew/CCP handlers you need a script update.
Racist Anti-semite for Trump.
This is weird. I see a name but no comment.
Your are very good at only seeing what you want to see.
Goyim gotta hate on the Chosin,
Bitter because you got the Polio?? (bet you didn't because of 2 Hebes, Salk/Sabin)
like the great Seth Rogen said in "Knocked Up" (Admit it, it kills you a Fat Slob like him spends more money on Pot than you have in Investments)
"You weren't chosen for a reason"
Frank (OK Viagra invented by supposed Goy Simon Campbell (looks Jewish)
if the Jews really are God’s chosen, why did He send Jesus to try and convert them?
Convert them to what? Jesus was a Jew.
I know for a fact there are some New Testaments in China, how come you have never heard of it?
Oh, you probably think Jesus was white, too.
He was Whiter than you that’s for sure.
Only when depicted in Christian kitsch.
Isn't it about time for Prof. Bernstein to show up with a complaint concerning ostensible antisemitism he tries to tie to the liberal-libertarian mainstream?
He has ignored a half-dozen or so vivid examples of right-wing antisemitism at his blog recently, so I figure it's about time for a jab at left-wingers.
Your move, professor!
He's moving on from Progressives just like a Walmart or Whole Foods. lmao
Coach Sandusky (loved the 82/86 teams, still love the Uni's, but hey (Man!) can you take it easy on my Tigers???? (2010 BCS Champions, not to rub it in)
And this might be like Hitler/Stalin, Sadaam/Khomeni, Lenin/McCartney (I'll be Stalin/Khomeni/McCartney(I am a Lefty)
but YES, "(a) half-dozen or so vivid examples of right-wing antisemitism at his blog recently, ..."
But how about the left-wing antisemitism??
Either way, we don't give a fuck,
Frank "Did Jesus see his shadow?"
Here is one of the most reliable economic precepts ever: "Nothing dollarable is safe."
John Muir said that more than 100 years ago. You would be hard pressed to find any economic hypothesis announced since which has shown comparable predictive power.
That's roughly as accurate a precept as, "Everything that's not dollarable is in short supply."
Seawater? Invasive carp? Backwater ignorance?
Let's see your counter-examples to Muir's precept. Examples of resources conspicuously dollarable which are safe.
Seawater isn't dollarable? I'm pretty sure you can get it shipped to your door for a price.
Don’t try that business on the Florida coast. There, it comes to your door for free.
Not "woke", but correcting for differences in physiology which distorted the old formula of eligibility.
Language is a virus, I swear to God. Say ‘woke’ and everyone gets a fever and starts ranting and raving about the monsters under the bed.
You think that’s bad, try saying YNBAW or Xi Jinping looks like a Korean Winnie the Pooh and see what happens!
Do you say it three times really fast in front of the mirror?
People are making all sorts of moral arguments against one selling their parts. The bottom line is do I own my body or not? If so then how is it not my right to dispose of it as I see fit, and if it isn't then who the hell does it belong to?
If it is mine, then arguments about what I do with it aren't anybody's damn business but mine and arguments to the contrary are just chest beating noise.
Like virtually everything this boils down to a private property argument.
This boils down to a people *becoming* property argument. Plus a state where you have to sell organs to survive is a state that is failing on a fundamental level.
I would say a state that has the power to say whether or not you can is failing on a very fundamental level.
I'm sure you would, but which states ever have or now do allow for the selling of organs by private individuals?
None
Edgebot scraped the internet and couldn't find any.
Well find some Bee-Otch
I get it, "Nige" (Obviously you didn't, as not realizing your name's a Virtual "Jumble" just begging for peoples to fill in the "Blanks")
Hmm "Nige"? Nigeria> Niges? Niget? Nigga? Niggab?...
Frank
Edgebot thinks its playing wordle.
None, since obvious the overreach of government preceded the technology to transport organs. That doesn’t make it right.
Look, the economics is a valid argument, worth of discussion, but the point I raised is totally independent. I am not trying to be snarky in any way, but the pro abortion activists are fond of saying “My body, my choice”. Well… Is that true or not?
Do I, or the government own my body? This is a much larger argument than the tired old rich vs poor angle, or do you think it is appropriate to cut off an avenue for the impoverished to lift themselves out of poverty?
I am not particularly interested if you are appalled. Go for it. It still doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t your business to tell me how to treat my body.
Maybe I am well off. Maybe I want to raise money to contribute to the less privileged and decide selling a spare kidney is the best way to do that. Why would you think someone else gets to judge the purity or reasons or motives behind my decision?
Perhaps as part of putting that organ donor stamp on my DL I will the cash value of my organ harvest to my heirs. Perhaps that’s my insurance policy. How is that anyone’s concern but mine? How is that any different that leaving someone my house, bank account, or investments?
Perhaps I am not religious and I place no value on the contiguity of my corpse? Perhaps I am religious and believe the gist of life is the greatest gift I can give, but I want my family taken care of in the process?
The bottom line is it is no one’s business to determine that but me.
“I am not trying to be snarky in any way, but the pro abortion activists are fond of saying “My body, my choice”. Well… Is that true or not?”
For your argument to work, the pro-choice position would have to involve selling fetuses, which is not what pro-choice people advocate.
The current situation is exactly analogous. It is a woman’s body, so her choice to donate her kidney or not, just like it is her choice to terminate her pregnancy or not.
You don’t address the many commenters who have pointed out that selling one’s body (in whole or part) opens a Pandora’s box of potential abuse. That same abuse isn’t there when people make the choice free of economic coercion.
Slavery is but one example of how commodifying people’s bodies leads to bad things. Selling kidneys may or may not be analogous, but you it’s not at all convincing to just ignore the argument.
This is a much larger argument than the tired old rich vs poor angle, or do you think it is appropriate to cut off an avenue for the impoverished to lift themselves out of poverty?
If that purported route out of poverty were a true assertion, examples of it happening already would already be plentiful, capitalism being what it is. Nowhere do you find the poor lifting themselves out of poverty by selling their organs. On the basis of pure ideology, you have talked yourself into a false assertion which is also morally monstrous. That ought to make you far more cautious about reliance on ideology.
There are plenty of rights we say you cannot waive. You cannot sell yourself into slavery. There's a history there, as it turns out.
History teaches lessons. One of them is that nothing is simple. There isn't The One True Mora Philosophy that optimally explains how it all should work.
If you think you're the one whose hit on it, except for how the Man is Keeping you and your Liberty Down, you're wrong in the same way angry teenagers have been wrong since time immemorial.
You don’t.
“The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past.”
Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973)
I would be willing to consider the idea of an organ market if were written up and could be evaluated. I would want to know at what age a person could donate and type of compensation. Most important would be the age. While technically an adult at 18, I don't think a person that a young person has the worldly experience to make a decision to donate. I would think the age of consent would have to be at least 30 years of age.
Of course the largest "Organ Market" would be XX's Uteri/Ovari,
Great thing about Gynecology, Uteri/Ovaries causing problems? We have an App for that!
Of course most of these Uteri/Ovaries are perfectly capable of reproduction, albeit with some painful symptoms (I'm worthless at "that time of the month")
Of course "transplanting" a Uterus isn't that easy, (and have you seen one? looks like a deflated football) Ovaries even worse, when,
"Umm you know there's thousands of Kids getting diddled by Jerry Sanduskies, because peoples don't want to adopt 12 year old Black Kids with mental ish-yews"
Frank
I absolutely agree the age should be 30 or so for it to even be a plausibly viable proposal. We know that human brains aren't fully formed, particularly with respect to evaluating long-term consequences until, on average, age 26 or so. Add the life experience and perspective argument, 30 would be a minimum.
But the specifics to avoid a predatory system would also be important, as you say. I don't reject the idea out of hand, but gonna need to see a lot more work as to how the plan works in practice.
It’s just a species of alienable property, like any other property, right? The state can tax it. And if you can’t pay your taxes, the state can force you to sell it to pay them. Just as with housing in gentrifying neighborhoods, being in possession of a fixed asset much more valuable than one can otherwise afford can make one very vulnerable to losing it. Often on the taxes alone.
And then there’s eminent domain.
It’s just property. Alienable property. Nothing special about it. No fuss, no muss, no problem.
And then there’s thieves, who would have every incentive to take the property and fence it. Today Americans have to be lured to some other country first before their organs can be taken from them under the guise of receiving some other surgery. But if the assets can be laundered and fenced within America?
Great points.
Ouch! So much for the personal property argument.
For the purpose of transplantation, race is a biologic truth.
Organs are matched so that the recipient's immune system does not reject the organ. Firstly, blood type is critical, as mismatch here will cause donated organ failure in minutes to hours.
Second is the MHC(major histocompatibility complex), via the human leukocyte antigens(HLA) needs to have better match in order that organs have a lower likelihood of chronic rejection. The degree of acceptable mismatch depends on the particulars of the various antigens, and how many of the 6 dominant antigens are alike or unalike. HLA antigens differ between populations. Blacks tend to have different alleles that express patterns of antigen. So to every ethnic group.
Blacks have lower likelihood for a good match if blacks donate at proportionaly lower rates than another group. And in fact blacks do donate at lower rates. Kidneys from blacks are less likely to be useful to whites or asians for the same reason that white kidneys are less likely a match to blacks, or to asians, or asians to blacks....
So if blacks want more organs, the fix is to acknowledge that as a group they under-donate, and efforts need to be made to improve the rate of donation.
Increasing the allocation toward blacks means steering organs toward those with poorer HLA matching, with subsequent poorer rates of donated kidney survival.
Until the donor pool is so awash with kidneys that some viable organs are sent to the morgue, it is a zero sum game. So any allocation plan that favors one group definitely dis-favors another group.
Finally, living donation is not a panacea. There is an impact upon the living donor who looses time from work, experiences discomforts for weeks to months, has a greater likelihood of themself developing kidney failure (because after the nephrectomy they have half the amount of reserve nephrons), and has a small but finite chance for death(3/10,000, low but not nothing).
To make the most of cadaveric donation advantages, all ethnic groups need to donate. If you need a kidney, it sucks to belong to a group that does not donate.
Reply to Gasman (tried to move it, couldn't)
“For the purpose of transplantation, race is a biologic truth.”
Nope.
What is true is that people of similar ethnic/racial backgrounds are more likely to be a match. But that’s a very different thing from saying “race is a biologic [sic] truth.”
“And in fact blacks do donate at lower rates.”
That depends.
From 1994 to 2019, the donation rate for living donors was roughly 15% for Black Americans and they make up a smaller proportion of the population than that. There was a drop in all living donors starting with the pandemic, but for reasons I don’t believe anyone is entirely sure of, donation among non-Hispanic Black Americans fell more than other ethnic/racial groups. So, in 2020 and 2021, their living donation was lower.
However, most donations are not from living donors and even in 2021, despite the lower living donation rate, 12.7% of all donations (living and deceased donors) were from non-Hispanic Black Americans. Which matches, roughy, the proportion of the population that is non-Hispanic Black.
What is true is that non-Hispanic Black Americans have higher rates of kidney disease and, so, are more likely to need a kidney transplant.
But the point is you’ve made multiple factual errors in your statement which reduces your overall credibility. But not as much as this:
“So if blacks want more organs,…”
What a weird fucking way to talk.
Everyone worth engaging with wants everyone who needs a kidney to get one. Some people who need a kidney are Black. I assume every non-racist wants Black people who need a kidney to get a suitable kidney. Some people who would more likely be a better match for that person are Black. So, yes, it is helpful if the diversity in donation more closely matches the diversity in need. But you’re making a weird group charge that somehow members of a group are responsible for the actions (or lack thereof) of other members of that group. “If blacks want…”
If you want to be taken seriously and not viewed as highly suspect, maybe don’t phrase things as blaming an entire ethnic/racial group for statistical disparities of donation in that group.
“Increasing the allocation toward blacks means steering organs toward those with poorer HLA matching, with subsequent poorer rates of donated kidney survival.”
This presupposes that if a kidney patient’s number comes up on the transplant list, they will get a kidney regardless of match. That seems highly dubious. The question at issue in this post has nothing to do with matching. The issue relates to the policy of giving higher priority for matching kidneys to non-Black people based on an explicitly race-based adjustment to eGFR.
(If you have an issue with how close a match is acceptable and if you show that greater variation is permitted for Black patients than others, then link to that proof and make that argument. But suggesting, as you do, that the adjustment in the eGFR has anything to do with making higher quality tissue-typing matches is stupid.)
If, of two patients, only one is a match for a donated kidney, the eGFR makes absolutely no difference because the match will get it. Your entire hypothesis is highly suspect and misses the point of the entire thread. Which raises the question of why you came to this thread to make statements about what should be done “if blacks want more kidneys”.
The non-racists among us want everyone who needs a kidney to get a kidney. So, yes, we all want more donors of every ethnicity. Increasing organ donation is an important piece of the overall puzzle.
The racial disparities discussed in the OP relate to specific, race-based policies which are not affected by the matching issues you discuss or by any disparities in donation. Which, again, raises the question of why you chose to post what you did.
Want a way to get rid of a lot of the moral hazard associated with donor organ markets? Track the cost of the organs as billed to the recipients, nationwide. Publish periodically the going rate for donated organs, based on some percentage—I would make it a high percentage—of the most expensive organ (or the 90th percentile organ, or some workable formula) of that type from the current tracking period.
Or, to make it harder to game the system, track the entire cost of the transplant surgery, and use a percentage of the most expensive instance of that to determine the organ donation price.
That way, within the range established by periodic market fluctuations, every organ donated gets paid the same amount, no matter how poor the donor. The amount paid to the donor gets determined by the price paid by someone likely to be notably richer than most donors.
State compelled organ donations .... to save innocent lives.