The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Supreme Court on Life and Liberty
I participated last Fall on a Wisconsin Law Review symposium panel on "Is the Court out of Control?," and wrote up a short (12-page) article for that. I'm posting it in several pieces; I hope some of you find it interesting, and I also still have time to make any corrections, if need be. Here's the fourth part (you can also read the first part, the second part, and the third part):
All this brings me back to one of my favorite passages on constitutional law—not from a case, but from a speech by Abraham Lincoln at the peak of the Civil War:
The world has never had a good definition of the word liberty, and the American people, just now, are much in want of one. We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men's labor. Here are two, not only different, but incompatible things, called by the same name—liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatible names—liberty and tyranny.
The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty, especially as the sheep was a black one. Plainly the sheep and the wolf are not agreed upon a definition of the word liberty; and precisely the same difference prevails today among us human creatures, even in the North, and all professing to love liberty. Hence we behold the processes by which thousands are daily passing from under the yoke of bondage, hailed by some as the advance of liberty, and bewailed by others as the destruction of all liberty.[1]
Now Lincoln certainly thought there was one definition that was right, and another that was wrong. Ultimately one definition was, thankfully, entrenched in American law by a political process (albeit backed by a military victory that was itself backed by a political process). Yet, the broader point still stands: claims of liberty presuppose controversial judgments about who is entitled to rights and to which ones.
If you change the words a bit, you see how this encapsulates the American debates about abortion. Both sides say they support liberty and life; they just have very different senses of what those mean, based in large part on a disagreement whether the rights of a particular group (the unborn) count. I doubt that framing abortion as a question of "necropolitics"[2] is helpful, but if it is, then surely those who view the unborn as persons can view the pro-abortion-rights position as being a particularly awful instance of necropolitics. Again, I generally take the pro-abortion-rights view. But it's unsurprising to me that others who disagree with me claim the mantle of individual rights as much as those who agree with me.
Likewise as to the Second Amendment. Some people think that the right to armed self-defense is fundamental to protecting life and liberty. (Certainly, if you want to look for an unenumerated right hallowed by long, broad, and deep tradition, the right to self-defense would qualify;[3] and one can certainly argue that the right to self-defense must include the right to use the technological tools necessary for self-defense.[4]) Others think that banning guns is fundamental to protecting life and liberty. Others take some intermediate perspectives.
You can see the same debate about religious exemptions, about broad readings of the Establishment Clause that ban government money from flowing to religious education alongside secular education, and more. And you can see that with regard to debates about criminal procedure rights and the like.
So again, maybe this comes back to Eric Segall's point: maybe if there is such a radical lack of agreement on liberty, it's a mistake to try to make the moral arc of the Constitution bend towards justice—whether in the form of liberty or the equally contested term "equality"—through anything other than political processes. But in the current system where we have deliberately insulated the Court from certain kinds of control, the Justices, unsurprisingly, make decisions based on their own judgments, however controversial, about what constitutes constitutionally protected liberty.
Conclusion
What we are seeing with the Supreme Court today, I think, is just its normal operation, for better or worse. All that is changing is which particular decisions are being made, and which particular precedents are being reversed.
[1]. Abraham Lincoln, Address at a Sanitary Fair in Baltimore (Apr. 18, 1864), reprinted in The Language of Liberty: The Political Speeches and Writings of Abraham Lincoln 690, 691 (Joseph R. Fornieri ed., 2009).
[2]. [Cite other symposium article that is oriented around this term.]
[3]. See Eugene Volokh, State Constitutional Rights of Self-Defense and Defense of Property, 11 Tex. Rev. L. & Pol. 399 (2007).
[4]. See, e.g., Victoria Dorfman & Michael Koltonyuk, When the Ends Justify the Reasonable Means: Self-Defense and the Right to Counsel, 3 Tex. Rev. L. & Pol. 381 (1999).
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"But in the current system where we have deliberately insulated the Court from certain kinds of control, the Justices, unsurprisingly, make decisions based on their own judgments, however controversial, about what constitutes constitutionally protected liberty."
One would hope those judgements would be based on the actual words of the Constitution, and not just on what the justices think those liberties ought to be, or would be in a world where they'd authored the Constitution.
Yes, words like
Not sure what your point is.
In the case of abortion, pro-life side considers the fetus a "person," whose life ought to be protected by law. Pro-abortion side disagrees. (FWIW, I think the pro-life side has it right.)
What convinced me was reading the southerner's defense of slavery and then the Dred Scott case. Clearly they were wrong and when you see abortion defended with similar language and logic, abortion must also be wrong.
A = C, B =A, hence B = C...
It's not clear to ME that Dred Scott was either entirely right or entirely wrong.
It was certainly wrong in regards to that rant of Taney's; Free blacks indeed did have a history of being treated as citizens in some of the states.
i agree. But that's merely erroneous dicta. I think Taney’s conclusion that the Federal government had no power to free Scott merely because he was taken into a Territory is not obviously wrong. And if he was not free then his standing to bring suit is non-obvious as well. So it is not "clear" that the result was wrong.
But that dicta is why people remember Dred Scott. Not just because the Court upheld the fugitive slave act, which as you say, was arguably the correct legal decision. Because of that over the top rant that drew a line in the sand: Not only weren't all blacks citizens, blacks categorically couldn't be citizens, even if a state wanted them to be.
Ed wrote, “What convinced me was reading the southerner’s defense of slavery and then the Dred Scott case. Clearly they were wrong…”
What people “remember” about Dred Scott is irrelevant to whether “they” were wrong. For example, you apparently “remember” that the constitutionality of the Fugitive Slave Act was at issue. It was not,
The problem I have with the Dred Scott decision is that Blacks in Massachusetts voted in the election to ratify the Constitution.
Remember that slavery in Massachusetts had ended 6 years earlier.
Yes, one of the dissents points out Taney's failure to address that quite convincingly.
But, again, that's only relevant to Taney's declaration about "the negro", that "they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect". But Scott's right to be heard in Federal court was denied on more specific ground than that.
For convenience, https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/60/393/
"What convinced me was reading the southerner’s defense of slavery and then the Dred Scott case. Clearly they were wrong and when you see abortion defended with similar language and logic, abortion must also be wrong."
The most relevant commonality I see between debates over slavery and debates over abortion rights is that one person (the slave owner) exercised control over the fertility of others (female slaves).
That's because you are determinedly obtuse and also obsessed.
Meanwhile you reject the right of a woman's bodily privacy in the presence of the opposite sex.
Haha that's the funniest thing you've written in a while (today)
My point is that there are definitely words, as Brett requested, but they don't exactly resolve the issue.
You’re right I think. To me, things like civil asset forfeiture are directly contradictory to the amendment you quoted.
The forfeiture proceeding is the process that takes place before the owner is deprived of property. What in the text of the amendment indicates that any additional process is due?
Not sure you have that right.
Its definitely wrong. The property is taken first. The person is given a notice of right to contest the forfeiture. If they don't take x legal action by a date certain, they lose by default. Because its 'civil' and not criminal, they are not entitled to appointment of counsel to help them take X legal action. Many are incarcerated anyway and quite conveniently; the local jailers will not take them to that civil court date even if the prisoner requests it; even if the jail and the courthouse are in the same building.
And don’t forget, it’s not the original owner that has the due process, it’s the property itself. The cases are styled things like City of Santa Fe vs. $30,375 in cash. Crap like that.
What the fuck are you talking about. Are you thinking of maritime law?
Civil forfeiture did indeed originate with maritime law concerning contraband no one claims ownership of. Now it's used to seize property on land with identified owners.
The owner is deprived of property early in the process, typically that’s the first step. Frequently no crime is ever even charged. What process are you referring to?
How is the owner getting due process before deprivation of his property if he isn't even a party in the suit?
I think often they would resolve the issue if the courts actually cared what they were. But the courts don't always care what the words say.
The clearest example would be something like the 6th amendment. The words say, "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."
Now, in some ways, the words don't settle the exact meaning of this: For instance, for most of the nation's history, the right to have the assistance of counsel just meant that you couldn't be prohibited from having it, (A negative right!) not that it had to be provided to you. Which was a perfectly good reading, just not the only admissible one. And what constitutes an "impartial" jury?
In other ways, the words absolutely DO settle the exact meaning: "In ALL criminal prosecutions..."; All is not a vague word, it is not particularly ambiguous. If anything, it's the Platonic ideal of a non-ambiguous word, by definition it admits no exceptions AT ALL.
But the Court blew that off, and ruled that you're only entitled to that jury trial in serious criminal prosecutions. Not "all".
They didn't care what the amendment actually said.
The key ambiguity is not in the meaning of "all", but in the meaning of "criminal prosecutions" (and in the meaning of "Crimes" in Article III).
That would make some sense, if there were some third category between "criminal" and "civil", but, no. I think Justice Black had the better of it in Robert BALDWIN, Appellant, v. State of NEW YORK. The Constitution makes no distinction between "petty" and "serious" crimes, it says "all", and "all" it means.
The offenses and statutes are exactly the same, the only difference is the sentence. And not even in aggregate, per count. Charged with 100 counts of an offense, and the sentence per each is guaranteed to be less than six months?
Fifty years in prison without a jury trial.
No, Justice Black was right: The Court just thought they knew better than the people who wrote the amendment.
I think an unbiased reading of the Constitution would suggest that "person" does not include the unborn. Without doing a full analysis here (which I'm sure has been done elsewhere anyway), even just this passage would suggest that fetuses have property rights. Implausible.
Not to mention that fetuses would be counted for enumeration purposes, if I'm not mistaken.
As the article above points out, the actual words of the Constitution do not necessarily solve the problem. If something as basic as "liberty" can have such conflicting interpretations, so can the words associated with every other social issue we are struggling with.
Fidelity to the actual words is a necessary starting point but that's all.
That's why it was important in Jefferson's view that the States, and the different branches of the federal government, could have their own interpretations. "You seem to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."
"Fidelity to the actual words is a necessary starting point but that’s all."
But even that is not what actually happens.
If it is "necessary" but not actually what happens then what is the conclusion from that?
No review, fat fingers. Sorry.
In other words, "Democracy is messy, and it's hard. It's never easy." (Robert Kennedy, Jr.)
Has there ever been a more eloquent speaker on America and what it means than Lincoln?
Indeed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%E2%80%93Douglas_debates#Charleston
Yeah, I get rather tired of Lincoln hagiography. He was more of a libertarian than Douglas, but that's not saying much.
Really, he thought blacks should be free, and should be elsewhere. He was a member of the American Colonization Society, which wanted to relocate them to their own country in Africa. Thus was Liberia created.
The plan ran into a little problem: They'd been born here, and didn't WANT to move.
https://www.theonion.com/man-always-gets-little-rush-out-of-telling-people-john-1819578998
All societies make mythos out of some of their people. No one can really live without some mythologizing. It’s something to note which myths someone chooses to reject.
We’ll never know how Lincoln would have handled Reconstruction – he’d proved adaptable on racial issues before, and capable of learning – but he was good enough for Frederick Douglass.
Hey, I said he was better than Douglas, didn't I? Just that that was a low bar to clear.
I actually think Lincoln would have handled Reconstruction better Andrew Johnson, and we might have avoided Hayes ending it. But that doesn't blind me to his faults.
Better than Johnson is also a low bar.
I don't bother much with the woulda's (though as a national myth, many do!).
There are 3 ways to handle a man-turned-nationalist-myth.
1) Ignore his faults. Perfect him in your eyes. This is not great, since it makes your associated nationalism brittle and opens you up to a fall from faith
2) Relentlessly pay attention to his faults, and tell everyone else about them as well. And indeed myths deserve to be taken down and humanized. But pay attention to what the myth stands for, not just the man. You would probably like to tear down FDR, but dunno about MLK and Lincoln.
3) Allow the faults, but focus on the myth. The man is dead, the myth is what you're really dealing with.
It's nuanced - Hollywood loves to play with humanizing the myth but they never really touch the myth by making the faults more than superficial. There's somethign to that.
"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”
When legends become facts, facts become legends. Because the untruth made 'truth' leaves no room for actual truths that contradict it.
Those crying because myths aren't really true are the ones who believe a bucha myths but don't realize it.
"Hollywood loves to play with humanizing the myth but they never really touch the myth by making the faults more than superficial."
Never? Does this apply to movies by, say, Oliver Stone?
And of course your formulation doesn't allow for contradictory myths.
"No one can really live without some mythologizing."
Speak for yourself.
And I can live quite well without swallowing any mythology about Lincoln.
That both oversimplifies Lincoln's position and the concept of colonization.
ACS' argument is that they were and would be a permanent problem, so what they wanted shouldn't have figured in.
Oh bite me,
Lincoln shared the views of 99% of the population of his time. He's still a giant.
Look to your own county:
"Due to the lax policy of the Dutch state slavery persisted in parts of the Dutch East Indies well into the 20th century."
Who knew Bob from Ohio would tolerate some bigotry now and again?
I try to embrace the silver lining to the multifaceted bigotry of conservatives . . . it is a substantial part of the reason that conservatives have been defeated in the culture war, enabling the liberal-libertarian mainstream to continue to shape our national progress for decades (and decades to come).
I'll do you one better than that. Cannibalism persisted in parts of the Dutch East Indies as well!
But was it surviving despite intoleration?
The way the Dutch treated and starved their workers, who could blame them for eating each other.
But they were eating each other before the Dutch arrived.
If your standard is that someone has to be Mother Teresa to be deserving of veneration then let the statue toppling begin (again).
But I think a better standard is they left the world a significantly better place, and hopefully set the stage for continued improvement. You might add that he did so at great personal cost too himself, but I don't know why that matters, after all Washington didn't seem to suffer much as a result of his labors, although he certainly deserves credit for not enriching himself further or founding a dynasty instead of a democracy.
I don't think I'd necessarily agree with your assumption that Mother Teresa was deserving of veneration.
de Tocqueville was pretty eloquent on the topic. I'd generally put him above Lincoln.
Agreed.
Throughout Lincoln's words such as those quoted here, in full context is the rather blatant self-serving motive of a politician to torture and twist the facts always to his own benefit.
That's on the people who make that necessary in order to win elections.
I've never heard of a politician saying something they don't really believe to make progress on an issue that they don't think the public is completely willing to embrace.
"I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages."
-Barak Obama 1996
"I believe marriage is between a man and a woman. I am not in favor of gay marriage."
- Barak Obama 2008
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/may/11/barack-obama/president-barack-obamas-shift-gay-marriage/
I don't know what was in Lincoln's heart when he made that statement, but I do know he was an abolitionist running for office debating a pro-slavery candidate, in front of an audience that may have been more sympathetic to Douglas's position and trying not to totally alienate their vote.
If only there was someone since Lincoln who had thought about liberty...
O, wait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Concepts_of_Liberty
There have been a lot of people since Lincoln, and before, too, who thought about liberty. Lincoln gets good press, though.
True, but if the argument is about whether letting people have guns will make them freer, Isaiah Berlin seems particularly relevant.
?
I've read Berlin. I don't see the point you're making. How (according to Berlin?) does "letting people have guns" make them less free? Seems like a nonsensical assertion.
Well, that's your problem right there. If you don't understand how an armed society might be less free than a society without guns, under Berlin's positive liberty concept, you're not really going to be capable of having an adult conversation about gun control.
It’s not necessary to “understand” nonsensical assertions by Lefty to have “an adult conversation about gun control.” There’s nothing “adult” about nonsense.
Disarming the people of course makes them less able to resist tyranny, or private assaults, when it is necessary to do so. It may have bad effects as well, but understanding that there are tradeoffs is where “adult” comes in.
Thanks to the Republicans, I now have the right to acquire and keep a gun to protect myself from a home invasion, something that has never happened to me in my entire life. If they have their way, I should shortly have the right to carry a gun with me whenever I go around in public, to protect myself against a robbery. Again, something that has never happened to me in my entire life.
The trade-off is that I get to worry more about whether any crowded place I go may erupt in a shoot-out when a disgruntled employee, an involuntarily celibate young man, a sexually traumatized teen, etc., etc., decides to make a target out of a large crowd. Could be a mall, could be one of the schools I regularly pass, could be any busy area in my tourist-destination city. At least I'll be able to return fire, amirite?
Sooooooo free...
You were entitled to worry about unlikely events even before. It's not like the odds of those things actually went up the day Bruen was decided.
You know, a few decades ago Florida pioneered concealed carry reform. Anti-gun activists predicted blood in the streets.
It didn't happen.
So another state, and another state, and another state, tried it. Every time, they predicted blood in the streets. Every time, it didn't happen.
At this point 44 states have shall issue concealed carry, and I believe we're on the verge of 25 of the states not even requiring a license.
And it hasn't happened. No sudden or even gradual spike in such shootouts.
I mean, I can't help you if you're paranoid, but if you're incapable of responding to empirical evidence, you've got a problem.
Is this one of those, "Once you discount all of the black people" type of analyses?
Gun violence and gun deaths are increasing, and they're more common in red states than in blue. No, maybe not spikes of "shoot-outs" like I'd noted, but the simmering level of ongoing gun violence is not decreasing, as we respond to headline-grabbing mass shootings with loosening restrictions.
Neither you nor I grew up with active shooter drills in school. Your kid probably has them. How does that make you feel about the current situation?
"Is this one of those, “Once you discount all of the black people” type of analyses?"
Nope, though I'm not surprised you'd be so quick to whip out that racism card.
The shall issue trend started in '85, and was mostly complete by '96. Notice the conspicuous trend in murder rates over that period?
Oh, wait, they dropped dramatically, and stayed down until the Covidian cult wrecked things.
"Gun violence and gun deaths are increasing, and they’re more common in red states than in blue."
Detroit, St Louis, Baltimore, New Orleans... Yeah. Red states. That's the common theme.
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/the-most-dangerous-cities-in-america/47/
I am so sick of this ridiculous tripe. The crime that happens in red states, happens in BLUE CITIES. The idea that somehow it's red policies and not blue policies that causes it is the ultimate dishonest argument.
Refusing to look at statistics IS paranoia.
You dismiss home invasion and robbery as concerns because they’ve never happened to you, but then raise your worries about someone making a target out of a large crowd that happens to include you.
Do you think for even a second before writing these things?
-I- HAVE been robbed and been in the immediate vicinity of an armed robbery, btw. It doesn’t seem on that evidence to be all that uncommon.
I don't think we should extrapolate gun policy based on what happens in your trailer park.
I was mugged for a briefcase (assaulted from behind by a couple black “youths”, no real damage to me), saw a purse similarly snatched about a block away from that event (currently the location of the Leaning Tower of San Francisco), and encountered a fellow tenant in a San Francisco warehouse whose hands had been zip-tied behind his back as part of a robbery of his unit where some sort of manufacturing (clothing?) was in progress. This does not exhaust the list of crimes I’ve encountered but are relevant events that spring to mind.
Did I mention that you are an idiot? I wouldn’t want to forget to mention that you are an idiot.
…and where do YOU live, snowflake? Since YOU want to “extrapolate gun policy” based on YOUR experience (with a declared insouciance about the needs of your fellow citizens who don’t have your privilege) the answer to that question is probably relevant. Is it an all-White zone?
As opposed to killing people with a motor vehicle?
Are they any less dead???
I knew you were going there, but it doesn't really work. America was long the freest country in the world, with an essentially untrammeled right to own firearms. At least, it was for those who WERE free, there were at the time minorities who didn't get to enjoy those rights.
There was no reason that liberty couldn't have been extended to everybody without contracting it. It got contracted because our government turned hostile to that liberty.
And, even today, the worst areas in terms of crime aren't the ones where that right is most respected. It's the areas that have experienced one party government for half a century or more, by the party hostile to that right.
America was long the freest country in the world, with an essentially untrammeled right to own firearms. At least, it was for those who WERE free, there were at the time minorities who didn’t get to enjoy those rights.
Exactly. The guns were used by some citizens to reduce the liberty of other citizens. Which is why America was never the freest country in the world. (It was never freer than the Netherlands, for example.)
And, even today, the worst areas in terms of crime aren’t the ones where that right is most respected.
It's almost as if lawmaking in one place has knock-on effects elsewhere! But surely that can't be right. It must be those evil Dems in Chicago who are to blame for all the guns in Chicago, not all the Republican-ruled places within walking distance from Chicago.
"It was never freer than the Netherlands, for example."
1940-1945
"never freer" if you don't count the slaves in the Dutch East Indies, some of whom were maintained well into the 20th century, or the general lack of political freedom there.
Well, they weren't telling him he couldn't do anything HE wanted to do, so it was all good.
You can't include Dutch colonies without also including US colonies.
Well the adult conversation about gun control is that I appreciate my right to own guns and I oppose efforts to curtail my right.
I certainly can appreciate that others may feel differently about that, but that's no reason for me to acquiesce in the efforts to ignore the constitution so they can get their way.
The argument that this issue is too important to follow the constitution doesn't seem like a very adult argument either.
Except that your interpretation of the constitution is sort of blatantly (or should I say egregiously) wrong, at least to the extent it departs from Miller in the ways that Heller and Bruen do.
Intentionally misreading the constitution for selfish reasons is... well it's very American, but it shouldn't be.
No, it is not wrong. If you read anything by the founders concerning this right, you'd have to admit that Miller was crap and should never have been passed in the first place.
Yes, it's American to be able to own your own firearm. The people that don't like that can always move to Europe.
Not sure what you think Miller was, but it was never "passed." It also interpreted the Second Amendment to guarantee the right to own a firearm. But not necessarily to carry it around anywhere you want, or keep it out in the open, loaded, with children in the house, or stockpile ammunition, or own unsuitable weapons like those intended for hunting. Heller and Bruen have extended the right far beyond the founders' intentions, but worse, they've curtailed the right in other ways that the founders would've objected to, namely by failing to protect the ownership of the sorts of arms most useful in a militia context.
The first question is obviouly not whether he is "relevant" but whether he is right.
Lincoln was a giant, hardly anyone knows who Isaiah Berlin was and he wrote something no one but philosophy students reads.
Plenty of giants are fictional, entirely or in part.
Conservatives, in particular, seem to favor fictional heroes.
Really? When did the "heroism" of Lincoln become a uniquely "Conservative" delusion?
No need to focus on Lincoln, when conservatives offer Donald Trump, Jesus Christ, George Santos, Rick Scott, the Holy Ghost, Madison Cawthorn, Herschel Walker, Andy Ogles, Melania Trump, Randy McNally, Dinesh D'Souza, and plenty like them.
That you think that your list proves anything is merely you being tedious and stupid again. I could come up with a similar list specific to Lefty (MLK, Kamala Harris, Greta Thunberg, ….), but it wouldn’t be proof that “Lefties, in particular, seem to favor heroes whose heroism is fictional.”
Does getting stomped in the culture war by your betters ever get tedious, in your judgment, Gandydancer?
After a half-century and more of losing at the marketplace of ideas, I imagine it might seem tedious by now.
Half Century? you haven't been in jail that long,
Frank
A good place to start is the quote attributed to Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. : "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins."
That informs us regarding slavery and abortion, but not the sheep/wolf thing.
Maybe we should not strive for some universal definition of liberty, but instead focus on what liberty means in a free society of human beings.
"And the Lord GOD said, thou shall punch the nose of thy neighbours who do not recognise Me, it shall be a statute forever".
Etc. 🙂
A fine essay, Prof. Volokh!
This whole series of fatuous, unenlightening, masturbatory rehearsals of 1L-level arguments has only convinced me that there is a fundamental problem in how we select for and hire law professors.
Eugene, nothing you've said on this topic has been constructive. You lack the background in ethical or moral theory that would enable you to parse the arguments surrounding abortion. You lack the background in legal philosophy to understand how your conception of the role of the judiciary is underbaked. And you apparently lack the opportunity to discuss these issues with other legal scholars who do have that kind of background, who might be able to point out what you're so blithely overlooking.
All you've really done here is taken and repackaged a series of superficial takes, organized and footnoted. Like Josh, you fail to acknowledge that the Court's perceived legitimacy is the glue that ensures that the rule of law sticks, whether we're talking about fealty of inferior courts, cooperation of executive officials, or the responses from legislators their actions are likely to inspire. You dismiss Establishment Clause-type concerns by reading it out of the Constitution and by ignoring that there is a large body of people - the conscientious irreligious - who come up with the short end of the stick in the Court's religious freedom and establishment cases. You strawman the position of abortion rights supporters while taking abortion rights opponents at face value, embracing the fundamental error of believing that the debate is just about when and whether fetal life deserves protection - and not also about what "protecting fetal life" actually means, in practice (i.e., the imposition of pregnancy upon a living and ordinarily autonomous adult).
Instead of taking the time to bring serious analytical attention to any of these issues, you've just bloviated in the Wisconsin Law Review, contributing to that academic farce (as most law reviews are - edited by law students with no serious academic background of their own, who too often rely simply on prestige and CVs when considering what to publish or whom to invite) an argument that could be written by any reasonably competent 3L.
What do you do with your time? Can't you read a fucking book?
"fatuous, unenlightening, masturbatory"
You just described your comments. Why do you come here again?
To try to engage with minds better than yours.
"error of believing that the debate is just about when and whether fetal life deserves protection – and not also about what “protecting fetal life” actually means"
Nobody thinks that. First, you must decide whether unborn human life deserves any protection at all. Then you can talk about what that "actually means" or the degree and sort of protection.
"the imposition of pregnancy"
Only if it was nonconsensual.
Only if it was nonconsensual.
Right. It takes only a peek under the surface layer of the right-wing doublespeak for the debate to quickly devolve into whether a woman potentially gives up her bodily autonomy for a nine month period (or such shorter period as determined by the state) by choosing to have sex.
Here, let me skip to the end: whether a pregnancy is the result of consensual sex does not resolve the moral question of whether a woman must continue to carry a fetal life in her body past the point where she no longer wishes to do so. Just as her decision to have sex does not preclude her from withdrawing consent from continuing to have sex.
Her right to bodily autonomy may not in all cases override the fetus's right to continue to living, but there is a balancing and weighing of interests there that conservatives usually pretend is simply irrelevant - as does Eugene.
It's been balanced and weighed and, in multiple jurisdictions, decided. You just don't like the result.
The puerile level of your arguments utterly discredit your evidence-free assertions about EV's adequacy for discussing these matters.
I'm sorry - I didn't realize that morality had jurisdictions. Perhaps you're having difficulty following the conversation.
“It’s” of course refers back to your “balancing and weighing of interests” which has indeed taken place “in multiple jurisdictions”, no matter whether “morality [has] jurisdictions”, whatever that is supposed to mean. OBVIOUSLY the reason you’re having difficulty following the conversation is that you are to EV roughly as nematodes are to homo sapiens.
I don't know what it means for morality to have "jurisdictions." You're the one coming into a thread touching on the moral debate about abortion, and its significance in the broader discussion about liberty and constitutional protections, and asserting irrelevantly that political processes have somehow resolved that question - and that I'm just a sore loser.
“Her right to bodily autonomy may not in all cases override the fetus’s right to continue to living, but there is a balancing and weighing of interests there that conservatives usually pretend is simply irrelevant – as does Eugene.”
Balancing and weighing of interests is precisely what political process are intended to do and “heartbeat” laws and the like are a result. Which, yes, you are being a sore loser about. That this is somehow about MORALITY “having jurisdictions” is YOUR crazy idea, not mine.
Agreed that forcing a woman to continue to carry a fetal life in her body past the point where she no longer wishes to do so is a deprivation of liberty.
But does it follow that the woman can kill the fetus at every and any point in her pregnancy if that is the most convenient method of removing the fetus from her body?
No, it does not so follow, which I think I conceded.
Balancing the interest in fetal life against a mother's interest in her own body autonomy is by no means straight-forward, but first of all acknowledging that there's a balancing to be done here - and acknowledging that anti-abortionists resolve the question by simply asserting that the mother has no such interest in her own body autonomy (save in the begrudging case where she has been raped) - helps to move the discussion forward.
Part of my complaint, about Eugene's simplistic take on the question, is that he thinks of the question as being about liberty of the fetus vs. liberty of the mother. Either one values the former, or one values the latter. He doesn't seem to acknowledge that even abortion rights supporters acknowledge that fetal life can and often does have value, and he doesn't seem to perceive that abortion rights opponents resolve the moral quandary by making troubling assertions about the moral status of women more generally.
Abortionists do not assign any value to a fetus, or a baby even.
If they did, they would not pass laws allowing "post birth" or near term abortions. Nor would they be fervently rejecting and fighting laws protecting children born alive.
Described himself to a T.
Relax, SimonP.
It's easy to forget this in the bubble that is the clingerverse, but conservatives such as Profs. Volokh and Blackman are -- and have been for some time -- the disaffected losers at the modern American marketplace of ideas. Their side has lost the culture war. They are misfits in modern American legal academia. They have watched the ideas they disfavor win the American culture war.
It is only going to get worse for them -- and better for America -- as our nation continues to improve, becoming increasingly less rural, less religious, less backward, less bigoted, and more diverse (less white). The consequences with respect to issues such as gun safety, abortion, special privilege for religion, safe spaces for bigots, voting rights, environmental protection, Supreme Court enlargement, policing, immigration, climate change, education, and many others seem relatively predictable.
Liberals, libertarians, and Democrats should not become overconfident, however.
If Republicans ever perfect a machine that mass-produces half-educated, roundly bigoted, evangelical, gullible, fearful, rural, gun-fondling, elderly, insular white males -- and conservative lawyers at the Federalist Society, such as the Volokh Conspirators, devise and implement a way to register those newly minted goobers to vote -- Democrats and the liberal-libertarian mainstream could have a real problem at hand.
You are a tedious shit.
Right-wing bigots at the Volokh Conspiracy seem to dislike me.
Some call me names.
Some censor me.
Some lie about me.
Some threaten violence against me.
From the long-term perspective, though, they're all the same -- inconsequential, disaffected culture war casualties, destined for replacement by their betters.
"Some call me names."
Hard for that to be taken seriously as a complaint when you started right off with your "disaffected losers" refrain, you tedious shit.
How many times being called Jerry Sandusky would ease your ostensible concern about my reference to being called names, in your judgment (or that of any other bigoted, worthless, Republican stain on our society)?
I don't know Jerry, you tell us (Your "Bettors")
Frank
I didn’t express any “concern” about your calling anyone you want “disaffected losers”. I expressed derision about your whining about being "called names" and, now, Jerry Sandusky. I didn’t know Frank was getting to you, but am glad to hear it. It’s the least you deserve, you tedious shit.
And, no, I haven’t forgotten about the UTn vollyball player you called “racist”, either. You whine, I laugh. That’s the way it works from now on, pal.
Whining? I’m celebrating. Victory in the culture war. Over conservatives such as you. You and Drackman are the fans and defenders the Volokh Conspirators deserve. Bigots should stick together. Until replacement.
Thank you for your continuing compliance with my preferences.
Artie,
Are you for real? Or are you someone's spot-on parody of a certain kind of Leftist?
He may be a very dedicated parody shtick. But see Poe's Law.
Wikipedia: "Poe's law is an adage of internet culture saying that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views"
What MG is suggesting is the opposite of Poe's Law.
Real? I am the modern, mainstream, reality-based world, which seems to bother conservatives.
Yes, Jerry Sandusky bothers pretty much anyone with a Wrecked'em
Frank "Wrecked'em? damn near Killed em"
Prof. Volokh is strawmanning his own position?
Read what he's written. He is talking about a group of abortion rights supporters who take a view he treats as separate from his own position, which he has not described in any way other than to say he's "pro" abortion rights.
I also am skeptical concerning that ostensible support of abortion rights.
It resembles my skepticism concerning the position on the invasion of Ukraine.
SimonP : ....embracing the fundamental error of believing that the debate is just about when and whether fetal life deserves protection – and not also about what “protecting fetal life” actually means, in practice (i.e., the imposition of pregnancy upon a living and ordinarily autonomous adult).
There is no point in discussing what burden, if any, a pregnant woman might legally be obliged to bear, to protect the life of the fetus, unless it is first established that a fetus's life is worth something. If it is worth something, then that discussion can begin.
But if you aren't willing to concede that, then what would be the point of discussing burdens with you ?
It seems to me that Lincoln (and EV) are not describing a difference of opinion about what "liberty" means, but a difference of opinion about who should have it. It's perfectly possible for "liberty" to take its usual meaning in a society with slaves. It's just that only free people have it, and slaves don't.
The positive liberty v negative liberty thing represents a real difference, of course, but positive liberty was always no more than weasel wording to justify restricting liberty in the interests of some other political end - equality, social cohesion, relief of poverty or ill health, whatever. Spin is not a new idea.
" It’s perfectly possible for “liberty” to take its usual meaning in a society with slaves. It’s just that only free people have it, and slaves don’t."
Sure, but the advocates of slavery actually insisted that ordering slaves about was a component of liberty, not just that slaves didn't have liberty to violate. That was what made abolishing slavery supposedly an attack on liberty, rather than just irrelevant to it.
Moore is exactly right. Abolishing slavery was clearly an attack on the liberty to control property which is in the form of slaves. Whether you ought have that liberty is a separate question that doesn’t demand a redefinition of “liberty”, merely an acknowledgement that all liberties are not compatible.
an acknowledgement that all liberties are not compatible
I would rather say that the set of liberties that can be had, without an irreconcilable clash, depends on who has liberty. Thus an absolute ruler can have a limitless set of liberties, because his exercise of his liberty is never going to clash with anybody else's. Because nobody else has any.
In a society of free men and slaves, the liberty to own slaves as property is possible, because free men have it, and it's not going to clash with the liberty of slaves to go about their lives without interference. Because they haven't got liberty.
In a society where everyone has the same liberty, then the liberty to own slaves as property can't be had, since if it did, Mr A would have the liberty to own Mr B, while Mr B would have the liberty to own Mr A. Which is a clash.
Well, former Roman slave A could have the liberty to own former owner B should their circumstances change. So they would both have the same liberty if both are in the same circumstance. That is, it's a property of their circumstance, not of who they are.
The positive liberty v negative liberty thing represents a real difference, of course, but positive liberty was always no more than weasel wording to justify restricting liberty
If you say so. Personally I feel much freer given that I don't have to worry about having my possessions taken away from me at gunpoint.
I live in South Carolina, and I don’t have to worry about that, either; I live in a low crime neighborhood, and am aware the odds of it happening are extremely low, so I don’t worry about it, any more than I worry about being swept away by a tornado, or being struck by lightning.
Life is so much better if you don't let the media instill paranoia by treating their news coverage as though it were some sort of representative sample of life.
STATES RANKED BY VIOLENT CRIME RATE
(1 indicates lowest violent crime rate)
SOUTH CAROLINA 44
(For readers outside the United States: South Carolina is a high-crime, poorly educated, superstition-addled, intensely bigoted, economically inadequate, generally shambling state.)
Well Jerry, since your umm, "In Disposed" (Yes, "Green State In-Disposal Facility PA)
You'd realize that people don't live in ALL of South Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee (get the point? I know you're a former football coach)
So there are neighborhoods in SC nicer than those on Martha's Vineyard (Surprisingly, couldn't get rid of the "Migrants" fast enough)
Neighborhoods on Long-Goy-Land more Conservative than any in Alabama (my Father in Law for example)
and areas of California who don't really care about the States "Assault Weapon Ban"
and even "Well Ed-jew-ma-cated" States like NH have areas of illiterate Inbreds (see "Newhart")
and anyway, who the fuck are you to be passing judgement on anyone? you're a Convicted/Registered Sex Fiend, former Coach for a Semi-good College Team that hasn't done shit since they joined a real Conference, and I believe you're about as much a lawyer as Raymond Burr,
Oh, if I didn't make it clear, go fuck yourself,
Frank
"Low Crime"?
c'mon (man!) this the "Conspiracy"!!
You're among friends (OK, except for the "Reverend" Jerry Sandusky/Dolly Llama)
you can say "Mostly White" or "Hardly any Blacks", although the safest neighborhood I've ever lived in, is my current one, Gwinnett Co GA, which is 80% Korean (and more importantly about 2% Afro-Amurican, and only those who can afford million dollar homes)
Don't be silly. I actually live in a neighborhood that's about 60% black. A nice, established bedroom community outside Greenville.
Black professionals aren't any more criminally inclined than white professionals, you know. It's not like nurses and realtors knock over liquor stores.
So no violent crime exists where you live?
Not enough to be worth sweating it. We also get tornados and lightning strikes occasionally, but I don't live in fear of them.
https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/netherlands/tax-in-netherlands/
I pay my taxes voluntarily. No guns involved.
Women can’t be forced to carry a baby to term, but that very same woman can be forced to create expressive works of art in service of a gay wedding.
First Amendment Scholar and Noted Libertarian, EV
If selling the service of being a surrogate mother were a public accommodation, I suppose that she would be barred from discriminating against members of a protected group. Otherwise, a completely senseless comparison.
Do you realize how stupid your post was? (Mortimer Snerd Voice "Duhhhhhh, No!")
Way more "Surrogate Mothers" than "Cake Bakers" (C'mon (man!) everyone just buys them at Publix/Kroger)
And surprised that the theoretical case you describe hasn't come to litigation, any mother who gave her children to Pete Booty-Judge and "Chasten" should have her Uterus yanked out
Frank
Public accommodations? Your statistics are in error, or you do not know what surrogacy is. And there was no surrogate for the Buttigiegs' children.
What do you know about the paternity of "his" twins?
He thanks two human males can have children.
After all we saw the post birth photo where the two fathers were laying in hospital as if they had given birth themselves.
Maybe he thought one of them identified as a woman and thus could get pregnant.
Their children were adopted; no surrogacy.
That poor woman forced to carry the gay wedding cake inside her for nine months then give birth to it.
Certainly, if you want to look for an unenumerated right hallowed by long, broad, and deep tradition, the right to self-defense would qualify
That certainty vanishes if what you are trying to do is discern whether that tradition was, as a matter of history, protected by the federal constitution, by state constitutions, or by something else.
Why would a noted constitutional scholar overlook an issue so central to the ongoing discussions about gun policy?
If that's what you were trying to do, you might care that they adopted the 9th amendment, to establish that existing rights were not extinguished by the failure to enumerate them.