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Second Amendment Roundup: To Preserve Liberty, Not Slavery
Carl Bogus invented the fiction that the purpose of the Second Amendment was slave control.
Back in 1998—a decade before Heller—Prof. Carl Bogus claimed to have discovered a "hidden history" showing that the Second Amendment was adopted to ensure that militias could enforce slave control. Since that theory crops up now and then, in 2021 I posted a comprehensive historical refutation in SSRN, which was subsequently published in Georgetown Journal of Law & Public Policy.
Bogus has now rehashed his 1998 theory in Madison's Militia: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment (Oxford University Press, 2023), which adds nothing new on point. He states up front that he will not address how legal scholars or the courts have interpreted the Amendment, except to assert, without any support, that James Madison and his colleagues "would have been astonished" at the Supreme Court's holding that the Amendment "grants individuals a right to have guns…." ("Grants?" No, confirms.)
Bogus failed to address or even mention my paper, which is the only comprehensive critique of his 1998 article, even though it was first published a year-and-a-half before his book. Oxford University's readers who vetted his manuscript were either asleep at the wheel or biased in favor of his argument. This is good example of why courts today, when searching for historical analogues under Bruen, should rely on original historical sources and not skewed declarations by "historians."
Bogus calls his tome "a mystery book" about "why James Madison decided to write the Second Amendment," because "there is no direct evidence about what the Founders intended." But his agenda is clear: instead of "the Minuteman at Lexington, with a musket in his hands … the more accurate image [of the Second Amendment] is that of the musket in the hands of the militiaman on slave patrol in the South."
Denigrating America's patriots in order to infect the Second Amendment with racism makes it easier today to criminalize the right to keep and bear arms, and is consistent with other contemporary efforts, such as the 1619 Project, to demonize America and its founders. Not surprisingly, Bogus served on the board of directors of Handgun Control Inc., the anti-gun lobby which morphed into the Brady Center.
Bogus focuses on the militia and ignores what he considers to be the non-existent individual right. The mystery supposedly reveals itself in the Virginia ratification convention of 1788. "Without spelling it out in so many words," Bogus writes, Patrick Henry objected to an exclusive federal power over the militia because it would "subvert the slave system indirectly." George Mason's warning that the disarming of the militia could lead to tyranny was actually a ruse; such were "encoded discussions" about slave control, Bogus speculates, that could not be made "directly" because "public discussion of it was often frowned upon."
According to Bogus, Madison supposedly knew he was wrong in arguing that the states had a concurrent power with the federal government to arm the militia, so he wrote the Second Amendment to "fix this problem." Bogus doesn't realize that most of the debate was about the militia clauses in the text of the Constitution, not what became the noncontroversial right to bear arms in the Bill of Rights. He keeps hitting the state militia piñata while ignoring the individual right.
Bogus next pilots his time machine to the American Revolution. Through his hidden history lens, the colonists were concerned only with preventing a slave insurrection instead of defending against attacks by the British army. Yet he quotes a historian as noting: "No white person was killed by a slave rebellion in colonial Virginia."
In real history, on April 21, 1775, Virginia's governor Lord Dunmore seized the gunpowder from the public magazine at Williamsburg. Per Bogus, "This left [Virginians] vulnerable to slave revolts." But Virginians were incensed by Dunmore's confiscation because it left them vulnerable to arbitrary Royal authority. Then they got word of Lexington and Concord. Patrick Henry saw the opportunity to rouse the people to arms, observing, "tell them of the robbery of the magazine and that the next step will be to disarm them, and they will then be ready to fly to arms to defend themselves."
Bogus paints Henry as fearing a non-existent slave revolt rather than what it was – a British attempt to disarm the Americans to subjugate them. Henry organized an independent militia to counter the Redcoats, not to do slave patrol duty. Read the original source, ch. XII of Patrick Henry (1891), which explains how Dunmore seized the gunpowder to disarm the Americans, who in turn formed militia for defense against the British.
Bogus doesn't know what to do with the fact that, during the Revolution, four states adopted arms guarantees in their bills of rights, and three of them were in the North. Most states thereafter adopted arms guarantees, almost all of which were read to protect individual rights.
In 1776, Pennsylvania declared "that the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the state…." That language clearly included self-defense and defense of the Commonwealth.
But to Bogus, this was a collective right only. The hidden meaning of "themselves," he says, is found in a 1754 (actually it was 1755) militia act providing that it "may be lawful for the freemen of this province to form themselves." Yes, that's a typo; the law said "form themselves into Companies." That law also declared "their Duty to fight in Defence of their Country, their Wives, their Families and Estates."
Plainly, the law and, later, the constitution recognized arms bearing for defense of self, family, and the Commonwealth. It wasn't to protect slavery, which Pennsylvania became the first state to ban in 1780.
Vermont adopted the same arms right as Pennsylvania, but its purpose wasn't to support slavery, which was prohibited by the same constitution that adopted the arms guarantee. Per Bogus, it was again a collective right only. Sorry Ethan Allen and your Green Mountain Boys, your gun toting was only at the sufferance of the state.
North Carolina simply declared that "the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of the state…." According to Bogus, that was "to make it clear that the right to bear arms for the defense of the state only [sic]." So "themselves" meant something after all?
Massachusetts was the first to add, in 1780, keeping arms: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms for the common defence." Bogus says one couldn't keep for individual reasons, but the law didn't preclude using arms for self-defense. And by the way, beginning the very next year, judicial decisions in the Commonwealth declared slavery to be unlawful.
So Bogus fails to acknowledge that three of the first four state constitutions to recognize the right to bear arms also abolished slavery at the same time or shortly thereafter. Nothing to see here.
While devoting scores of pages to irrelevant subjects like biographies of contemporaries and battles in the Revolution, Bogus ignores critical demands for a federal bill of rights with an arms guarantee. George Bryan, who led the effort to abolish slavery in Pennsylvania, helped draft the antifederalist Dissent of the Minority in that state's ratification convention which included "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and their own state…."
Bogus ignores the proposal of Samuel Adams in the Massachusetts convention which would have prohibited the federal government from preventing the people "from keeping their own arms." And he ignores that New Hampshire, whose 1780 constitution was interpreted to abolish slavery, was the first state to ratify the constitution and demand a bill of rights, including that "Congress shall never disarm any citizen…." Its leading advocate was Joshua Atherton, whose most prominent argument against the constitution was that it sanctioned slavery.
Were all of these abolitionists naively duped into supporting the right to bear arms before the Second Amendment was even drafted a year later by the crafty James Madison?
Jumping forward to Madison's proposal of the Bill of Rights to Congress in 1789, Bogus imagines that "had" Madison told Roger Sherman of the need to ensure Congress couldn't "undermine the slave system by disarming the militia, Sherman would have been supportive….We shall never know whether such conversation took place." Right, but there's no evidence that Madison said any such thing, and "had" Madison said something else, we wouldn't know that, either.
"Haunted" by Patrick Henry's ghost, Madison proposed the Second Amendment to address Henry's supposed (but nonexistent) argument that Congress must not disarm the militia and thus undermine slavery. Yet despite all, "Madison paid relatively little attention to his right-to-bear-arms provision." The same could be said for this book, which says virtually nothing about that part of the Amendment and instead focuses almost entirely on the militia clauses in the text of the Constitution.
An anticlimactic chapter on the English Declaration of Rights of 1689 is squeezed in at the end, but Bogus doesn't know what to do with its provision that "the Subjects which are Protestants, may have Arms for their Defence," as it had nothing to do with slavery.
The Bogus thesis was picked up by Prof. Carol Anderson in The Second (2021), where she maintains: "The Second Amendment was … not some hallowed ground but rather a bribe, paid again with Black bodies." Her argument, a condensed version of which appears in Nikole Hannah-Jones, The 1619 Project, focuses on the deprivation of Second Amendment rights as applied to African Americans.
But the defect at the Founding was not recognizing all individuals as among "the people" referred to in the First, Second, and Fourth Amendments. That failure did not taint the Amendments themselves, but instead led to the belated inclusion by the Fourteenth Amendment of all persons, including African Americans, within the scope of those constitutional rights.
In Arming America, Michael Bellesiles fraudulently made stuff up and invented sources to back it up. To his credit, Professor Bogus alerts readers that he is making stuff up and doesn't pretend to cite sources. One only wonders why Oxford University Press would publish such fiction.
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I just like saying "nominative determinism".
Can we just reflect on the fact that a historian named "Bogus" just makes stuff up and misrepresents what actually happened? Heck, i almost thought this was a very late april fool's until i googled him.
"Can we just reflect on the fact that a historian named “Bogus” just makes stuff up and misrepresents what actually happened?"
Scott Adams would say that the simulation is winking at us.
Well, Scott Adams might say that . . . after he spewed a bunch of on-the-spectrum, disaffected bigotry.
How did Scott Adams avoid becoming a Volokh Conspirator?
Talking to yourself again, eh?
I always refer to him as "the eponymous Carl Bogus". His name isn't technically an eponym, but it ought to be.
You'd think, growing up with such a name would make one especially fastidious about being truthful and accurate...
Seems to have had the opposite effect, actually. And he's been like this for as long as I've known of him.
He's one of a small circle of 'researchers' who made their names churning out fake anti-gun research for the gun control movement. It's his bread and butter, he does it professionally.
"Name checks out."
What of the fact that the US had no provision for a standing army when the Constitution was written, and that citizens with weapons were the way that could be solved, should we be invaded? Why else would they talk about militias?
Perhaps we should get rid of the standing army, and keep the 2nd Amend (instead of ignoring its preamble)?
That would certainly reduce how many foreign military adventure we go on. It would probably also significantly reduce freedom in the world as a whole, though. Should we have stayed out of the World Wars? Would other countries have outlasted the USSR during the Cold War?
"Should we have stayed out of the World Wars? "
Had we stayed out of W(ilson's)W(ar) there would probably have been no WWII.
How would the US staying out of WW1 have revitalized the Weimar Republic and prevented the rise of fascism across the globe? How would it have affected Communist aggression in the following decades?
Forgive a short answer and lack of cites (it's early and the coffee hasn't kicked in yet) but the short answer is that both sides were basically bled dry from the effects of modern warfare fought like ancient warfare. They were both at a point of almost total exhaustion and would have had to reach a negotiated end had the US not injected hundreds of thousands of fresh troops and material on the side of the French and English.
Whether Communism would have survived and thrived is an open question. Lenin took advantage of the situation on the continent to co-opt the revolutionary forces in Russia and sieze power.
For arguments for and against US involvement, see linked article:
https://www.history.com/news/history-faceoff-should-the-u-s-have-entered-world-war-i
“How would the US staying out of WW1 have revitalized the Weimar Republic and prevented the rise of fascism across the globe?”
Well, how do you “REvitalize” something that was never “vital”, i.e. much of a force in world affairs?
Anyway, WWII didn’t take place because of “the rise of fascism across the globe”. Fascism is what took power in Italy, not Germany or Japan. Distinctions are important, even if the propaganda of the USSR avoided them and called all sorts of different things “fascism”.
Imperial Japan would presumably still have invaded China because China was weak and Japan would still have wanted its resources, so the “WW2” that began in 1937 would still, in a sense, have occurred at some date fairly near that. But if the Western Front had ended in stalemate rather than German defeat would the USSR have eventuated the way it did in the vacuum created by total German collapse and Austro-Hungarian disintegration? And would Hitler have gained power? No Hitler, no invasion of Russia to seize lebensraum for The German Race, no Holocaust, no WW2 as we know it.
If the US doesn’t get involved it’s a WAY different timeline.
Or at least it is if you attribute the German collapse to American troops rather than the British blockade hitting home, but that discussion is for another time.
In fact, the militia system working exactly the way it was supposed to in the Spanish American war is why the federal government decided it was no good: A system designed to discourage foreign adventures was no help at all with their foreign adventure!
Unless you mean to include crew served weapons in the second amendment, a militia couldn't even keep the Mexican cartels out.
How long would it take for a crew of qualified marksmen to learn to fire a crew-served weapon? Particularly if they had an existing rank structure.
I’m guessing a youtube video and list of rules would do it. Maybe a second video of how to clear jams and a third how to clean it.
Wasn't there some Black sailor who broke out a machine gun in the midst of the attack on Pearl Harbor and figured out how to use it? Shot down a few planes if I remember correctly.
Doris Miller was boxing champ for USS West Virginia. His day job was cook. His battle station was ammo handler for the anti-aircraft guns. The below decks magazine he worked at had been destroyed by a torpedo, so he went up to an .50 AA machinegun mount, found it unoccupied, and began returning fire at attacking aircraft several of which flew away smoking. Since his battlestation was AA ammo handler, I suspect he learned from watching the gunners in trainng and knew what he could do given the chance. 29 attacking aircraft failed to return to their carriers and many that managed to land were so shot up they were pushed overboard as unsalvagable, leaving few flyable planes for a third wave attack. Miller has been credited with at least three maybe six kills.
BTW part of formal training for AA gunners in WWII was shooting clay pigeons with a shotgun from a moving platform. Good duck hunters made good AA gunners too. Later the Arthur D. Little study in the Viet Nam war showed that recruits with civilian experience with arms tended to make better riflemen in military service.
9 year old boys can do a fine job of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMhzh8Sc6xc
I'm ok with that.
The Founders' romantic notion that a citizen militia could be a viable substitute for a professional army was anachronistic even in 1790, and was forcefully shown to be obsolete by 1812. The suggestion that it would be viable today is difficult to take seriously.
(That reality of course has no real bearing on the proper interpretation of the Second Amendment, of course.)
“Perhaps we should get rid of the standing army, and keep the 2nd Amend (instead of ignoring its preamble)?”
This is backasswards.
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
The preamble ought to be ignored because it implies nothing. It’s a badly written provision, but “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms” bit says quite clearly that the “right” pre-exists and isn’t derived from the amendment, which merely prohibits the Feds from interfering with it and (unnecessarily) gives a reason (not necessarily the only one) for why it ought not do so. The fact that the Feds had a good reason (particularly at the time) not to interfere with the right doesn’t imply that the Feds can interfere with the right if it decides that the loss of that benefit is no longer important. The PEOPLE have the right independent of whether their having it benefits the Feds. Otherwise it would be mere policy, not a RIGHT. Duh.
Yes, 'the text means nothing and should be ignored' is a pretty spicy hot take on constitutional interpretation.
A few points about history:
1. Almost anyone who can read, can read history. Probably more than 20% of readers do it well enough to comprehend well written history by serious authors.
2. Very few people ever learn to write history. Only a tiny fraction of 1 percent of people can do it competently. Also, compared to reading history, writing history requires an entirely different skill set. Reading history is in almost no way a preparation to write it.
3. Lawyers and judges almost never get the training needed to write history. They also remain unaware that skill to read history is all but useless to answer legal questions about what happened in the past. To do that requires someone trained to write history.
In the OP above, Halbrook illustrates all 3 points.
We'll just have to take your word for that, apparently.
I don't
Lanthrop
You know full well your argument is bogus - The contemporaneous written record has numerous references to the individual right, numerous references to the right for the common defence, but zero record of any discussion limiting the right to only when serving in the militia.
layman and judges are perfectly capable of reading the actual historical record. It takes a lot of kuptz to continue to make the claim that only "historians" are capable of finding (or ignoring) the hidden meaning in the historical record.
A few points about history
Translation: "Allow me to spew the usual crap the voices in my head are constantly whispering to me."
"3. Lawyers and judges almost never get the training needed to write history. They also remain unaware that skill to read history is all but useless to answer legal questions about what happened in the past. To do that requires someone trained to write history."
This explains Bogus, whose "training" to write history didn't improve his nonexistent skills for locating and reading and understanding history, which is Lathrop's view is completely unimportant since "[r]eading history is in almost no way a preparation to write it."
And what is Lathrop's training to speak knowledgeably on this subject? He doesn't tell us, but surely without a credential he has no business opening his yawp.
Yes, well. Apparently somebody doing a pre-publication review on the manuscript noticed that an alleged "history" of the Second Amendment and the American militia utterly failed to deal with the historical context, things like the Trained Bands, the English Civil War, the Glorious Revolution, and the like.
Of course, any actual exploration of that context would completely destroy the book's thesis since none of it involved slavery, so Bogus dealt with the reviewer's objections by adding a "Well, I have to talk about this to get published" chapter.
As an intellectual matter, OUP should have simply killed the book over that, but it probably would have been a bad financial move.
Last summer, the movie RRR detailed an action movie fictionalization of the real effort of Indian people well over a hundred years ago to get guns into the hands of themselves, so they could resist the English overlords, who had banned Indians from having them, so they could not resist the English.
Second Amendment theory: 1
Makin’ shit up: 0
When Ukraine round 2 started, Ukrainian leaders squeaked for guns, including small arms, to help defend. They removed laws forbidding carrying outside the home.
Second Amendment theory: 2
Makin’ shit up: 0
Well, perhaps Stephen Halbrook can explain the answer to the following question to me.
The current right-wing line about the Second Amendment seems to be that the first half of the Second Amendment (“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, …”) has no prescriptive content, like a “REM” statement in a BASIC program (for those of you old enough to remember BASIC) or a “C” card in a punch-card driven FORTRAN program (ditto) – it doesn’t give any instruction to the interpreter (or compiler or responding computer or platform), but is only put it in order to help future human readers seeking to modify or rewrite the program understand something about the code. Like, say “REM THIS SECTION IS THE NORMALIZING SUBROUTINE” or “C THIS PART IS THE SORTING SECTION.” The first half of the Second Amendment is just a guide to make clear to the reader why the second half (“… the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”) is there.
Sound familiar?
So my question is: why did the authors put the first half into the Second Amendment at all? Why not just write “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”?
The answer I always get is: “Well, the second half says what the Amendment demands (or, if you prefer, confirms), and the first half says why.”
But the problem with this answer is, nothing like it occurs anywhere else in the Bill of Rights, or, for that matter, in the Constitution (body or amendments) except for a few very broad, very general statements about the purpose of the whole thing, in the Preamble. The Authors evidently wanted to keep the thing as short as possible. So the Third Amendment doesn’t say why the authors want to forbid the governments from forcing citizens to quarter troops in their homes. The Eighth Amendment doesn’t say why the authors prefer that cruel and unusual punishments not be inflicted. The Fifth Amendment doesn’t say why prosecutors shouldn’t be allowed to make you testify against yourself.
Why did they put in a clause with no prescriptive meaning at all here, and only here, in the Second Amendment, uniquely to the entire document?
The most frequent answer I get goes something like “well, the right to keep and bear arms is the lynchpin-right, the one on which all the other rights depend. After all, what would it mean to have freedom of the press if the government could require you to surrender your arms and render yourself unable to defend your right to freedom of the press?”
The trouble with that is, if the right to keep and bear arms were the most fundamental right, on which all others depend, then why not establish it in the First Amendment??? So far, no one has posted an answer to this question.
I really wish someone who knows something about the history of the Bill of Rights would clarify this to me.
“The trouble with that is, if the right to keep and bear arms were the most fundamental right, on which all others depend, then why not establish it in the *First* Amendment??? So far, no one has posted an answer to this question.”
In the Congressional resolution submitting the Bill of Rights there were two other amendments which didn’t get ratified at the time. These unratified amendments were in fact the proposed first and second amendments. More specifically:
What Congress listed as the First Amendment had to do with Congressional apportionment. It was never ratified.
What Congress listed as the Second Amendment has to do with Congressional pay raises. This wasn’t ratified until 1992 as the 27th Amendment.
In Congress’s original list, what is now the First Amendment was listed third, and what is now the Second Amendment was listed fourth. And so on.
Proposed amendments three through twelve were ratified but not one and two. So three through twelve were renumbered and the third became the First.
https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/bill-of-rights-transcript
As for the well-regulated militia, going back to the original constitutional design wouldn’t mean disarming people – it would, however, mean more training and, when necessaary, use of the militia – not just the volunteer National Guard part of it, but all men (and soon women) liable for militia service.
The reason, I suppose, that we don’t get back to the original constitutional design is that the feds simply draft people into the standing army when they need troops, bypassing the militia altogether.
But supposing the militia - the whole militia - were actually trained more frequently, and maybe even deployed more frequently, as the preamble supposes? I don’t see how that necessarily means disarming anyone except the enemies of the U. S.
Thank you for the history. But you didn't answer the question: WHY INCLUDE THE FIRST HALF OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT AT ALL??? Why not just write "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", since that is (allegedly) what they wanted?
I thought I did respond to that one. I’ll try again: a militia wouldn’t be very formidable against either foreign foes or domestic tyrants if the members were unarmed, or if they hadn't grown up accustomed to the use of arms.
The reason the militia clauses don’t get the attention they deserve isn’t because of a gun-lobby plot; it’s because of militarism and a desire for Old World-style conscription instead of the system specified in the Constitution. In the Constitution, the militia can be called into federal service to enforce federal laws, to suppress insurrections, and to repel invasions. (Let’s suppose that would include drafting militia members as individuals and putting them into the Army). That language covers War of 1812 (invasion), Civil War (insurrection), and WWI and WWII (enforcing the laws – in this case Congressional declarations of war). But the establishment wants the right to draft people in peacetime and for deployment in undeclared wars. *That’s* why they bypass the militia clauses, not because the NRA told them to.
RE: “The reason the militia clauses don’t get the attention they deserve isn’t because of a gun-lobby plot; it’s because of militarism and a desire for Old World-style conscription instead of the system specified in the Constitution.”
That’s very nice, but I’m not asking why the militia clause in 2A (the first half of the amendment) “doesn’t get the attention it deserves”. I’m asking why the author(s) of 2A put the "militia clause" in 2A AT ALL, given that they didn’t put anything like it into any other part of the Bill of Rights, or into any other Amendment, or into any part of the body of the Constitution (except the Preamble).
In other words, fill in the blank below, or, go post your distractions elsewhere in the thread (please):
The author’s (or authors’) purpose for writing “Amendment II: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people, to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed”, rather than just writing “Amendment II: The right of the people, to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed”, was ______________________.
Thank you very much.
I keep getting reminded why this place is a waste of time.
Of course I answered your question, you didn't like the answer, so you'll keep saying it's a "distraction" until you get the answer you want.
No, I don't have to follow your instructions, giving only the answers you want. I could just as well instruct you to stop being silly.
I was discussing the law they actually adopted, not what their personal feelz were when they wrote it. You can contemplate the latter question all you want. Maybe you can hold a seance and hear from the Founders personally.
Another non-answer. Why not just admit the fact which is obvious to everyone who reads this: there is no good explanation for the first half of the Amendment unless you admit that it has some prescriptive content, like every other word in the Constitution with the unique exception of the Preamble.
All right, I’ll give you an answer: “a militia wouldn’t be very formidable against either foreign foes or domestic tyrants if the members were unarmed, or if they hadn’t grown up accustomed to the use of arms.”
Although I seem to recall saying this right above – maybe you missed it?
Restoring the 2A preamble and the well-regulated militia system associated with it (as described also in the main text of the Constitution) wouldn’t mean the government gets to violate the right to keep and bear arms. In fact, the 2A preamble is an argument *in favor* of the people being armed.
I would have thought that the gun-control crowd would be as uncomfortable with the 2A preamble as with the rest of the text - and I would have thought that the gun-rights crowd would appreciate the preamble as buttressing the idea of an armed populace as a good thing, not just a lifestyle choice.
What do you mean about the other preamble – the preamble to the whole Constitution – having no prescriptive content? It states the purpose of the entire Constitution.
So in short: without its preamble, the 2A would say people would have the right to keep and bear arms if they feel like it, but without specifying a reason. With the preamble, it's stronger - it says an armed populace is a good thing, not simply an optional add-on to citizenship.
RE: “What do you mean about the … preamble to the … Constitution – having no prescriptive content? It states the purpose of the entire Constitution.”
That is not prescriptive content. Prescriptive content is content which tells the reader what the author of the prescription is advising or ordering the reader to do, not why he is telling the reader to do it. Stating the reason or motive for telling the reader to do it is descriptive or explanatory content, not prescriptive content (and it is not usually included in a prescription).
EXAMPLE:
Prescriptive content = “Take one Aspirin tablet every day.”
Descriptive, explanatory content: “The purpose of taking the Aspirin is to reduce the clotting of your blood so that you don’t have a stroke or embolism.”
If that's your sense of "prescriptive content", then the preface of the 2nd amendment has none, either. Grammatically, it simply isn't a command, it's a justification for what follows.
The 2A preamble creates a context for the operative part: The need for a well-regulated militia is intrinsically linked to the right to keep and bear arms. This doesn’t justify gun control, but it might be read to justify compulsory militia training/service for gun-owners. In this instance, the 2A preamble can be used to maintain that a right (arms) entails a a duty (militia duty).
"In this instance, the 2A preamble can be used to maintain that a right (arms) entails a a duty (militia duty)."
The way rights normally work, is that you get to decide yourself whether to exercise them. You're free to publish, but you don't have to, in fact, can't be compelled to.
So, if the 2nd amendment hadn't been clarified in this way, it might have been interpreted to prohibit compulsory militia service, since a right to keep and bear arms unmodified would imply an equal right to refrain.
The preface precludes that interpretation.
Of course it has prescriptive content, and you can go back to the Miller Court for that content: The arms we have a right to keep and bear are military arms.
The modern Court doesn't talk much about the preface because they don't want to follow the Miller logic, and be forced to invalidate laws against ownership of machine guns.
RE: "Of course it has prescriptive content, and you can go back to the Miller Court for that content: The arms we have a right to keep and bear are military arms."
That's not what libertarians say! And, as you pointed out later in your post, not what the modern SCOTUS wants to say either.
So? I thought we were discussing what the amendment actually means, not what a court grudgingly will admit to.
I mean, it's not like Bogus is restricting himself to Supreme court rulings. Or historical sources, for that matter...
Goalpost moving much? You asked a question about prescriptive meaning of the first portion of the Second, and got a good answer.
"The arms we have a right to keep and bear are military arms.”
False. The right to bear arms INCLUDES military arms, but it also includes varmint rifles. If you want one of those it is plainly a restriction on your right to bear arms to stop you. And the Feds have no right to do it.
"...there is no good explanation for the first half of the Amendment unless you admit that it has some prescriptive content..."
Why do I need a good explanation for something that IMHO was just a stupid drafting mistake? No one can read the 2A and assert that it is well-written for ANY purpose. Politicians wrote this, and it's crap. Copies from some other document, iirc, so there was an element of laziness as well. But it clearly says that the right to bear arms is a RIGHT, and the first phrase does nothing more than give a reason why the Federal government was not given the power to interfere with that right. Interpreting the stated reason for that prohibition as a limitation on the right is retarded. Reasons for doing or not doing something just don't work that way.
RE: “No, I don’t have to follow your instructions, giving only the answers you want.”
And I don’t have to read your posts at all, and won't, unless they include answers to my particular question.
Judging from the actual text, not mindreading the authors, the 2A preamble gives a reason for having an armed populace, thereby giving extra force to the right to keep and bear arms, *and* giving a context of a civic duty to which the right is ordered. The *individual* right to keep and bear arms exists side-to-side with a *collective* responsibility to engage in militia training and service.
The 2A preamble *is* the purpose, it’s not necessary to hold a seance to ask the Founders what the purpose was.
You cannot answer my question, so you are trying to ridicule it. If something only happens once, there has to be a specific reason for it in that one case which doesn't apply elsewhere, and it's not unreasonable to demand an explanation for it. To say "we can't know because we can't read the author's or authors' mind(s)", is no better than saying "I dunno". And it invalidates the whole idea of originalism.
“it invalidates the whole idea of originalism.”
I’m not really into originalism as an ism. If the Founders take the trouble to write down their purpose right into the text of the law, that’s enough “Founders’ intent” for me, and rummaging through old Congressional debates and newspaper controversy would confuse not clarify things.
It's true that the text itself is sufficient for anybody who's not determined to read it in a Bogus manner.
But it's nice to be able to throw in the face of such people all the proof that they're wrong about what people at the time thought it meant.
RE: "the 2A preamble gives a reason for having an armed populace,..."
Then why don't any other parts of the Bill of Rights or of the Constitution have similar "preambles"??? Why only this amendment and no other? That was my original question, and I'd appreciate it if you would focus on answering it, and avoid distracting us with non-answers. Please.
“why don’t any other parts of the Bill of Rights or of the Constitution have similar “preambles”???”
I don’t have the slightest idea!!!
I answered what I could answer, which were things I thought you'd asked, excuse the heck out of me for not knowing the minds of the Founders on this one question.
"O, sprit of Madison, why didn't you have more preambles to individual constitutional clauses? Move the ouiji board to spell out the appropriate answer, please."
The Spirit of Madison would probably answer: "The first part of the Second Amendment DOES have prescriptive power and meaning! It clarifies the context in which the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and that context, which it clarifies, is, in the context of using those arms in order to function as part of a state militia, well-regulated and controlled by civilian authority. NOT in the context of owning them yourself and being careless with them so that they get used as weapons of war against other citizens of your own state or against its government, and subject to reasonable restrictions if we have problems with armed terrorists and armed violent lunatics shooting up our schools, churches, and marketplaces."
Well, let me consult *my* Ouija board:
“Begone, fake Madison! I, the one and only Madison, declare that the 2A preamble says nothing about disarming anyone – quite the contrary, it gives a rationale for having the people people armed and accustomed to the use of arms. If I didn’t want the people to keep arms, I wouldn’t have used the word ‘keep.’ If the preamble restricts any right, it’s the right to refuse militia service – a topic which we discussed in Congress but didn’t resolve in any authoritative manner. I invite a comparison with my precious First Amendment – it leaves people free to be Episcopalians or not, as they choose, and without affecting any government interest. But if it said (which God forbid) that ‘a flourishing Episcopal church being necessary to the Godliness of a free state, the right of the people to follow Epicopalianism shall not be infringed,’ then we’d have a comparison with the Second Amendment. I have spoken!”
Hey, Toad, if the drafters of the 2A meant to say only that Congress shall make no law that interferes with States ability to arm and train militias, as you seem intent on contending, why didn't they just say so?
Put simply, the 2nd amendment has a preface because it was modeled after the Virginia constitution's clause, which had a preface.
And nobody interpreted it the way gun controllers do until very recently indeed.
Why didn't they edit out the part which had no prescriptive content? They weren't shy about editing 2A (or other amendments of the Bill of Rights) during its composition nor about making it different from its sources or inspirations.
The section of the Virginia Constitution you are referring to (Article 1 Section 13) says "That a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state, therefore, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; " Note: defense of a free state, not defense of individual rights as guaranteed by a Federal constitution, and certainly not an authorization to stockpile weapons of war for use against the government of the state one lives in.
One can hardly call a state free if the people do not enjoy individual rights.
As I point out below, the preface is due to the unique nature of the right in question, that it is both a right and a duty; It's the only right you can be compelled to exercise.
That doesn't render it not a right; Any claim that it isn't founders on the word "right" being found in the amendment.
RE: "One can hardly call a state free if the people do not enjoy individual rights."
Now you are playing games with the meaning of "free" as applied to a state. It's quite obvious (from other uses of the term "free state" in the Constitution) that the Founders meant "free state" to mean a state not directly governed by a tyrannical Federal government or by a tyrannical foreign government.
You're right to connect the right to keep and bear arms with a duty. It was connected with the duty to serve in the state militia when drafted (called) and to be, as the Virginia Constitution which inspired 2A said, subordinate to, and controlled by, the civilian authority of the particular state you lived in.
On the contrary, from an abundance of contemporary sources, they actually meant a state in which the people themselves were free. And were not shy about saying so.
Yes, the militia were subordinate to the state. The people, OTOH, were not, and it is a right of the people.
As I've had cause to remark before, the purpose of guaranteeing the right to do something so related to militia service, is that while a well regulated militia might be necessary for the security of a free state, the people running the state might not WANT it to be free, and so might deliberately discontinue the militia system.
The private right to keep and bear arms is a backstop to the militia system: Even if formally discontinued, an armed populace means a militia can be raised in an emergency even if the people running the government wanted it to be impossible.
The 2A recognizes the existence of a natural right of the people to bear arms, but the Federal government was not (until, arguably, the passage of the 14A) the guarantor of that right. It might be illegitimate — render a State non-free — for a State to interfere with the right of its people to bear arms, but the Federal government had no power to get involved in that question, as far as I can see.
" and certainly not an authorization to stockpile weapons of war for use against the government of the state one lives in."
Tench Coxe, who promoted the Bill of Rights for Madison, and got thanked by Madison for doing so:
"The powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from sixteen to sixty. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress has no power to disarm the militia."
Why is he contrasting the power of the militia with that of a standing army? Because it might be used against a standing army!
Joseph Story, a contemporary of the founders, in his commentaries on the Contitution:
"The importance of this article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject. The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers. It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
I say to you again: This is a "hidden" history, because all of the public sources contradict it. Essentially, Bogus claims that the 2nd amendment was produced by a conspiracy of slave owners, for malign purposes, and they lied to everybody about why it was adopted.
Thankfully SarcastrO and Nige weren't up yet to further muddy the waters as you and Margrave tried to honestly answer "toadies" bogus questions.
I don't think it's a bogus question. It's a good question, but when it gets answered he moves the goal posts.
I’m really asking two questions: 1. Why (for what purpose) did the author(s) write the first half of 2A in, and 2. If your answer to 1. is “to say why they were writing the second half in (ie the first half of 2A doesn’t affect the requirements, demands, or protections; it’s just there to guide the reader and help him understand why they wrote the prescriptive part which is the guarantee of the right to keep and bear arms)”, then why did they NOT write anything similar anywhere else in the Bill of Rights, or, for that matter, anywhere else in the whole Constitution, excepting only the very general purely-descriptive stuff in the Preamble?
So I admit, I’m really asking two questions, not just one, and that may be why I’m getting accused of “moving the goal posts”.
So to score a goal, (let’s solidify where the goal posts are), you need to say what the author’s or authors’ purpose was in writing “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,…” AND, IF your answer is “just in order to guide the reader and help him understand my/our purpose in writing “…the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed,” then you ALSO need to explain why they didn’t write any similarly purely-descriptive clauses in anywhere else in the Constitution except the Preamble.
So, depending on your answer to 1, scoring a goal can be a 2-step process. If your answer to 1 is “the second half says what; the first half only says why”, then you have to also answer 2 in order to score a goal. Why are there no other passages anywhere in the body or amendments which "don't say what, only say why"??? Why did they put a "why-only, not-what" passage in 2A only and no where else?
THAT’s where the goal-posts are, and I’m not planning to move them.
I don’t know how those goal posts ended up in the parking lot next to the stadium, but I’ll stipulate they were always there, not belatedly moved there by you.
The goal posts simply don’t make sense. Why would I or you or anyone *have* to explain the lack of a preamble in, say the copyright clause, or the third or twenty-third amendments?
Wait, I just stumbled (without meaning to) on a relevant clause - the copyright clause, which arguably *does* have an explanatory portion.
...
Sorry for saying this, but you seem a bit disingenuous with your "just asking questions", but I would still point out that you're assuming the text of the Bill of Rights was drafted in its final form and adopted without discussion. I don't recall the history of its drafting, but I do recall that there were other draft versions of it, the end result of the back and forth among the drafters was the slightly unusual two-clause format of the final version.
Like many laws, the text was most likely the result of compromise.
Then the meaning, interpretation, and applications, should also be the result of a compromise, not the result of a one-sided decision to ignore the half of the Amendment which your side dislikes.
Why?
Well, but a side effect of the back and forth is that we actually have the people involved publicly discussing what it meant, and nothing they said supports this Bogus thesis.
That's why it's called a hidden history, after all: Because all the public statements of the people involved contradict it. His thesis is that literally everybody involved in getting the 2nd amendment adopted was LYING.
It's a bad sign when you have to base your history on all your sources being liars.
Now, let's quote Thomas Jefferson, relevantly: “The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”
So, "their right and duty", and there you have the reason for the preface: Because it's a right AND a duty, which distinguishes it from the other rights listed in the Bill of Rights.
RE: "Well, but a side effect of the back and forth is that we actually have the people involved publicly discussing what it meant, and nothing they said supports this Bogus thesis."
Yes. I'm not saying anything about Bogus or his thesis. I'm asking MY question.
That's rather disingenuous, isn't it? You're not just asking the same question, over and over, you're refusing to accept any answer save the one you want.
Bellmore, that is an 1824 quote from Jefferson. As a matter of history it is irrelevant to any question of interpretation about what the 2A meant circa 1791, when a group which did not include Jefferson wrote the Bill of Rights and got it ratified. Time's arrow runs only forward. The quote cannot have anticipated a future already more than 30 years in its own past.
And as for what did happen in that past, Americans in France in 1791 lacked information to make them authorities about events in America. They also lacked agency to affect how those events happened on another continent.
Toad above raised a fair question. It was answered variously, by people who invented everything in their replies. Not a one of them shows any sign of knowing how to tell if a historical inference might be legitimate.
In fairness to their honesty, Toad's interlocutors do not suppose what is wrong with their answers, or even that they are making things up. They just suppose that if they throw a lasso around all history, including all events, and every place, in complete disregard of specific times, then whatever they find encompassed in the noose must furnish fair materials to assemble narratives and call them history. Why not? If the materials in the noose are from the past, what else can they be but history?
Knowing nothing about the methods used in the historical profession, or even that the historical profession needs methods or uses methods, Toad's interlocutors guess they merely do what anyone would do. They also have strong beliefs about what history did mean, and suppose those are widely shared, at least among people alive today. What figures from the past might have thought of those beliefs, Toad's interlocutors have little notion, lack methods to discover, and could not care less—which is the one point on which Toad's interlocutors might approach historical truth—no one, no matter how historically learned, can say what a figure from the past might have thought about a presently current idea.
Bellmore, Toad asked a well-formed historical question. What he got back from you (see my remarks about your Jefferson quote) and others were inchoate assemblages of assertions about the past. Toad is merely holding out for a historically relevant answer.
I have some advice for Toad. Forget it. The people you addressed your question to do not have capability to give you what you asked for, and do not know they don't have it. You have to be the one to break it off.
“no one, no matter how historically learned, can say what a figure from the past might have thought about a presently current idea”
…how do you interpret my disavowal of originalism and my ouija board comments? I distinctly *wasn’t* doing what you say is impossible.
Toad-in-the-hole, though, seems to want to know what the authors of a legal provision intended that provision to mean, and indeed, he wants to know the intention behind stuff they *didn’t* say (the absent preamble on the Seventh Amendment, for instance).
Aren’t these the very things you don’t think can be known, at least not to the likes of us?
Aren’t these the very things you don’t think can be known, at least not to the likes of us?
Margrave, no. They are not those things.
Sometimes, not always, history pursued by inference from contemporary context can disclose legitimate answers to certain questions. Usually, they are questions which do not purport to reach across time, but instead remain questions about what happened during a particular era under study. If you stick to the notion that history is about discovering what happened in the past, by use of context that happened in that same past, you keep historical problems manageable—however demanding the scholarly effort might prove to be.
It is when you attempt notional time travel, to use modern ideas to illuminate the historical record, for instance, that rival contexts get entangled. Then illegitimate or logically impossible conclusions get presented as facts. Likewise when you try to time travel in the other direction, and illuminate modern problems with inferences drawn from the historical record.
Stay content to leave history in the past, and refer exclusively to past context to illuminate past texts, and things get better. Establish standards for relevance—such as avoiding spooky causality across impractical distances—or a standard to avoid retrograde influence, where posited subsequent causes explain prior effects—or a standard to apply recorded thoughts and utterances only to the occurrences associated with them in the historical record, and to avoid generalizing them to apply to everything else that happens—and things get better still.
Simply learn to apply those few simple rules. Then, although you will not yet be equipped to research history on your own, you will at least be able to critique outlandish claims so often offered as history. It would be a great help to everyone if gun enthusiasts, for instance, could see at a glance that Kopel and Halbrook are not equipped to speak with authority about many of the historical subjects they purport to discuss.
Before trying to decipher the mysteries of history, try to decipher what I said to you. I'll try to return the favor and try to decipher what you said to me, but you have much the easier job.
Margrave, I confess I had to guess about your meaning with the Ouija board comment. My hope is that you intend it as a critique of the notion that some conclusions arrived at by historical inference can be legitimate, while others are not. Perhaps you suppose that notion leaves too much room for subjectivities which might vary among historians. I hope that is what you meant. If so, it could be an occasion to make real headway in communicating about history, how it is done, and some of the pitfalls. Please let me know if I have guessed my way within useful distance of your intent.
Yes, I was mocking the idea of piecing together the lawmakers’ views through the usual “originalist” methods.
Historical context can be important – I don’t want to go into details now, but bottom line I don’t agree with rummaging through the Congressional Record or newspapers looking for quotes. If the lawmaker chooses not to be clear, then ambiguities should be resolved by resorting to basic legal principles. If the lawmaker *specifically* undermines basic legal principles that’s one thing, but if the lawmaker’s work can be read consistently with basic principles, it *ought* to be read that way. Such a dedication to underlying legal principles should whenever possible be imputed to the lawmaker, under the assumption that they’re good lawmakers who intend to do justice. If they want to disappoint our expectations of justice, they should be up front and unambiguous about the bad stuff they’re doing, otherwise we should respect them and the public enough to assume they’re supplementing not undermining our best legal traditions.
As you may have guessed by all this, I’ve been pretty much persuaded by Vermeule’s “common good constitutionalism” (not all of Vermeule’s *results* – but then, he’s just the delivery man who brought the classical legal tradition to many people, and I don’t consider the deliveryman’s views binding even though I’m grateful for the content of the delivery).
Basic legal principles have historically (oops, I used the h-word) included such things as the right to a hearing, the right to a remedy for a wrong, and some other stuff which may be more controversial.
Margrave, once again I have failed. You wrote this:
Historical context can be important – I don’t want to go into details now, but bottom line I don’t agree with rummaging through the Congressional Record or newspapers looking for quotes. If the lawmaker chooses not to be clear, then ambiguities should be resolved by resorting to basic legal principles.
From the standpoint of a historical investigator, that reads like a non-sequitur of an especially discordant sort. The historian’s notion of context of creation cannot be addressed by, “rummaging,” through anything. Instead, the notion of context of creation urges you to notice that in an investigation across time there is no “resort to basic legal principles,” available in any analysis. To presume it can work that way entangles context from the present era with different context from a long-ago era.
That would inevitably happen if a present-minded investigator relied on what he presumed to be, “basic legal principles,”—which is to say principles according to today’s norms. Historical survivals from a former era must be presumed to have nothing to do with today’s norms.
Problem is, to interpret differences in principles as found then, vs as understood now, is the challenge motivating the research in the first place. So resort to present-minded insight as a means to reckon differences and similarities is simply self-defeating.
From that it follows that an imposing hurdle to pass before historical investigation begins is that all present minded insight must be ruled out. Nothing which affects today’s thinking played any part in what happened then. Today’s everyday experience lay entirely in the unknowable future of the era under study. Such thinking did not motivate behavior at that time, or shape the principles relied upon either, not at all.
Thus, an investigator who relies on today’s presumptions about, for instance, “basic legal principles,” has negated the point of the investigation before it starts. If today’s investigator finds in some survival from the distant past an evocation of notions which look familiar today, then the evocation itself must fall under a scrutinizing suspicion. Certain knowledge teaches that people then knew nothing about today.
Have I at last got your attention? If so, we could begin to consider methods used to practice historical analysis in ways which exclude present-minded analysis. Or perhaps you are content to disregard legal analysis which purports to rely on, "history and tradition," and waste no more time with historical perplexities.
The "half" of the 2A which you are so determined to "like" is in plain English merely a reason for the second, operational, half, so in deciding what the Congress cannot do (and what it was later empowered to do by the 14A) there is no reason to view it as anything else, no matter how badly you want it to be a restriction.
Congress shall have the power "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."
Toad apparently thinks that if it merely said "Congress shall have the power to secure for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries” it would have given Congress a greater or lesser power, somehow. Maybe SCOTUS could rewrite copyright law to disallow any copyrights that in ITS judgment didn't promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, since it is so much wiser than Congress about such things.
In the original, that portion *did* come first.
The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.
ntelligent Mr Toad 7 hours ago
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Thank you for the history. But you didn’t answer the question: WHY INCLUDE THE FIRST HALF OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT AT ALL??? Why not just write “The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”, since that is (allegedly) what they wanted?"
Because 2A protects two rights A) the right of the people to form militias for the common defence ( with well regulated to ensure it does not protect mob vigilante militias) and B) the right of the people to keep and bear arms for defence of themselves.
both rights are consistent with the historical record. Stevens was completely wrong in his analysis while Scalia was wrong describing the purpose of the militia clause, though in Scalia's defense, the collective right was not before the court.
Nope. The 2A DID NOT protect the right of the people to form militias for the common defense EXCEPT against the Federal government interfering with that right by infringing on the people’s right to bear arms. It was not a general power to protect that. It did not, for example, empower the Federal government to prevent any State from interfering with that right.
It says what it says, not what you wish it says.
That’s the same message I’m giving Toad.
Under your analytic framework, what is the "prescriptive meaning" of the Ninth Amendment?
You are very worried about half an amendment here that is clearly written as a preamble, while not addressing an entire amendment later. (Tenth Amendment jurisprudence is also far removed from its plain text, and the Third Amendment has never been interpreted by the Supreme Court.)
The Tenth amendment was rather sickly until the New Deal, when FDR convinced (Extorted, really) the Court to euthanize it. There isn't a deader clause in the Constitution, sadly.
I disagree. The Tenth Agreement is the basis for the anti-commandeering doctrine, and at least arguably for the requirement to have jurisdictional hooks in federal Commerce Clause laws. The Ninth Amendment is a practical nullity and the one appeals court ruling on the Third Amendments could probably be cabined as a Takings Clause case instead.
OK, not totally dead, there are a few cells being kept alive in a petri dish somewhere.
Yes. I think we agree, though, that entire amendments have as little obvious application as the prefatory clause of the Second Amendment. Contrary to Mr Toad’s claim, that prefatory clause is not the most extreme case of obscure intent or effect.
Not sure what you mean by "as little obvious application".
Do you mean that it's not at all obvious that they're being applied by the courts? Or that what they could be applied to isn't obvious?
Because it's certainly true that there are numerous clauses in the Constitution the courts essentially just ignore. That doesn't mean how they could be applied if not ignored isn't plain.
Mostly the second, which I think is closer to what Mr Toad was asking about regarding the 2A. The intended meaning of the Necessary and Proper Clause, for example, is much debated -- and so it is often invoked in non-judicial contexts but seldom applied by courts. The intended meaning of the Ninth Amendment is also debated, but a (more or less strong) legal consensus seems to be that it does not have direct "prescriptive meaning" by itself but somehow affects the reading of the rest of the Constitution. The P&I clause seems to be a nullity, but the atextual "substantive due process" provides some similar protections while being different in important ways.
You didn't notice the copyright/patent provisions of Article I, which also explain the purpose of the provision.
You might also want to read Prof. Volokh's "Commonplace Second Amendment" (you can google to find an online copy) which addresses the issue you raise.
Pdf version: https://foac-pac.org/uploads/Volokh-Commonplace%202nd%20Amend.pdf
So that, as a first pass anyway, I can listen to pdfs while doing other things I use zamzar to convert to .txt, then panopreter to convert .txt to voice.
But the problem with this answer is, nothing like it occurs anywhere else in the Bill of Rights
Now apply that to the idea of a collective right vs an individual right.
An outstanding example of engaging in bad faith, well done Toad, well done.
Mr Toad,
The name of this blog is the Volokh Conspiracy. Look no further for the answer to your question than to Eugene Volokh himself. See his 1998 New York University Law Review article on, "The Commonplace Second Amendment" https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=54020
The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 was interpreted to prohibit slavery in 1781-1783. See: https://www.mass.gov/guides/massachusetts-constitution-and-the-abolition-of-slavery
I would check on the NH Constitution because it didn't exist until 1783 and took effect in 1784.
Prof. Halbrook bears a heavy responsibility for what is happening today, in places like Louisville and Nashville.
Funny how you assign responsibility.
But not ha-ha funny, just sadly predictable and political.
The rash of school shootings is a direct result of our Second Amendment (mis)jurisprudence, for which Halbrook is proud to take responsibility. It's a straight line.
How so?
By obsessively focusing on tools rather than actors, and wondering why so many guns shoot people instead of why members of certain demographic groups suddenly start randomly murdering people.
It is pretty central to the gun control movement's approach to attribute agency to the guns, not the people.
It's pretty much central to all groups who wish to limit people's liberty.
Paul Harding explains it.
https://www.quora.com/How-can-a-gun-enthusiast-still-claim-their-right-to-bear-arms-is-more-important-than-public-safety/answer/Paul-Harding-14
That IS an excellent essay, isn't it? Right to the point.
Indeed it is.
Actually I think it misses the point entirely.
Speech, privacy, freedom from wrongful imprisonment, those are all fundamental rights so clearly worth some sacrifice of safety. But a gun isn't, the essay just assumes gun == freedom with absolutely zero justification. I could write the same essay to justify my breeding of smallpox.
Now, the typical way to make that argument properly is the claim that a gun better enables people to protect some fundamental rights. Self defense is a common one, and a gun does better enables you to defend yourself, but it's not necessary (and the presence of guns simultaneously makes self defense harder). There's also a claim that safety, not self defense (and certainly not effective self defense) is the better right.
Another claim is that it enables people to defend themselves from the government, but I think this is both too abstract but also backwards. The easiest path to tyranny is fear, and the fear created by guns enables tyranny far more than tyrants fear guns. Perhaps that was untrue in 1700's, but with modern militaries and police forces a stable States will have overwhelming force.
re: "but with modern militaries and police forces"
The Afghanis, Iraqis, Vietnamese, Ukrainians and dozens of other peoples who successfully fought off "modern" forces would seem to put the lie to your claim of hopelessness. On the other hand, history is replete with examples of evils committed against disarmed populaces.
All of your examples involve populations fighting off foreign forces, often with the aid of foreign arms. Not really relevant.
History is also full of examples of evils committed against armed populaces as well.
I'm not sure why you think that the foreign nature of the "modern" force is even slightly relevant. Armed populations have at least some ability to resist and to force negotiations. Modern police and militaries are not nearly as "overwhelming" as you claim. Disarmed populations, on the other hand, are overwhelmed by any bully with a pea-shooter.
I’m not sure why you think that the foreign nature of the “modern” force is even slightly relevant.
Because if the example is a local resistance fighting off a foreign army it's not relevant to the US. Any foreign adversary who makes it past the US Military is not going to be troubled by a few armed locals.
The only time an armed populace helps is in the place of a very weak government (and military).
In fact, 2014 Ukraine was that, and their militias proved very little obstacle to a fraction of the Russian military.
Then, in 2022, the Ukrainian militias were replaced (and merged into) an actual military, and Russia is probably losing.
“I’m not sure why you think that the foreign nature of the “modern” force is even slightly relevant.”
Fighting off a foreign force is actually harder. (From the perspective of the people being targeted by that force, of course.) Their logistics chain starts outside your country, they draw on foreign populations that largely don’t care what happens to you for their supplies and manpower, their leaders get to live among people who don’t know you from chopped liver.
When a government is attempting to deal with a domestic opposition, every advantage they have in dealing with a foreign foe goes away.
The enemy IS your logistics chain. They don’t have to disrupt it, though doing so is easy, they just have to stop supplying it.
You’re drawing your soldiers from the same population as the enemy. Some of them ARE the enemy, many more aren’t comfortable fighting them.
The government depends on a populace who not only know the enemy, they INCLUDE the enemy. The government rests on the support of the enemies relatives and friends.
The government’s leaders travel around in a society the enemy transparently swims through.
You know, Biden laughs at the idea that guns are a defense against the government, suggesting that the government can just use high altitude bombardment against people with rifles. When the real threat to a government fighting its own population is a combination of taxes not paid, downed power lines, and snipers taking out incumbent politicians. The enemy doesn’t have to infiltrate, they’re already behind your front lines.
And, that last is actually the basis of the gun control movement! It really got its start after the Kennedy assassination, when some high up US politicians thought, “That could have been me!”, and decided that the US population needed to be disarmed for their own safety. It’s the ultimate astroturf operation, the movement was literally founded by ‘retired’ intelligence agents.
Edward O. Welles, 85; veteran CIA officer led anti-gun organization And he wasn’t the only one.
Speech, privacy, freedom from wrongful imprisonment, those are all fundamental rights so clearly worth some sacrifice of safety. But a gun isn’t,
The right to the means of effective self-defense (which means firearms unless/until something better comes along) is arguably the most fundamental of all rights.
"freedom from wrongful imprisonment... so clearly worth some sacrifice of safety"
GET YER DOUBLE-SPEAK! GET YER DOUBLE-SPEAK RIGHT HERE!!!
re: "gun enthusiast"
I like to think of myself as a "liberty enthusiast." I realize that, by giving up my guns, I would be giving up my liberty. (Once you give up your guns, you're relying on the goodwill of the government to "protect" you & your family. A foolish idea in the best of times; outright nuts considering the people currently running the country.)
I have constitutional rights to petition government for redress of grievances, to vote, to not have soldiers quartered in my house, to fair compensation if government takes my property, and to not be enslaved. What safety costs do those rights have?
So what's your plan?
Do you have a magic wand of firearm evaporation?
Because there are more guns than people in this country, and without that, your goal of just getting rid of them will never happen.
I wopnder why not mention of Camden, New jersey, or Compton, California, or the Kengsington disrtrict of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Prof. Halbrook and other defenders of the 2nd Amendment are all that stands between us and unlimited, arbitrary rule by people like you. May God grant him good health & long life.
Both you and captcrisis refer to him as professor, but I do not believe he ever taught at a college or university. He is a lawyer, author, and a fellow at a think tank.
The Font of All Knowledge says:
"He began as an instructor of philosophy at Florida State University, 1970–1972. After completing his PhD he worked as an assistant professor of philosophy at the Tuskegee Institute (1972–1974), Howard University (1974–1979), and George Mason University (1980–1981)"
I'll be darned. Nevermind. Besides, I suppose if Professor Longhair can be one, anyone can.
Halbrook has nothing to do with what’s happening today.
And it appears to be your assertion that people who will ignore laws that prohibit them from shooting people would comply with laws that say they can’t have a gun. That really doesn’t pass the smell test. As an obvious example, look at the huge number of paroled felons who shoot people with guns they’re not supposed to have. Your philosophy on this has no relationship with human reality.
"Prof. Halbrook bears a heavy responsibility for what is happening today, in places like Louisville and Nashville."
Tranny and lefty shoot people, its a conservative's fault!
LOL, no. Your critical thinking skills are suspect. Suicide is contagious (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK207262/) and violent suicide more so. Mass murderers plan it.
2nd amendment jurisprudence is no more responsible for mass murder than Anheiser-Busch is also responsible for drunk driving accidents. Do you realize even in 2023 over a third of fatal accidents involve at least one driver under the influence?
Prohibitionists, having failed at alcohol and drug prohibition somehow think "oh this time it will work!"
Remember the "Seduction of the Innocent" Congressional Hearings on comic books causing Juvenile Delinquency and Promoting Homosexuality among the Youth of America?
" except to assert, without any support, that James Madison and his colleagues "would have been astonished" at the Supreme Court's holding that the Amendment "grants individuals a right to have guns…"
Technically, he's correct.... for the reason you show in your following paranthetical, hah.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/04/10/recent-supreme-court-decisions-and-equality/?comments=true#comment-10010485
Now that we have both the 2nd and the 13th Amendments, the 2nd Amendment equally protects everyone's right to keep & bear arms (just as the 13th Amendment equally protects everyone from being enslaved).
Take my word for it: those who would get rid of the 2nd Amendment -- because it "was adopted to ensure that militias could enforce slave control," or because it "is about protecting white people" -- will some day get rid of the 13th Amendment as well. (And if you let them do the former, how will you prevent them from doing the latter?)
If gun advocates do not improve gun safety in America, better Americans will do it for them -- and in manners and to degrees gun absolutists will not like.
Republicans need to (1) find ways to make bigotry, backwardness, superstition, and can't-keep-up backwaters more popular in America or (2) prepare to see their preferences become even less relevant to modern America.
If gun advocates do not improve gun safety in America, better Americans will do it for them — and in manners and to degrees gun absolutists will not like.
Will those "better Americans" be doing so with the use of guns?
I expect the progress to involve mostly elections, statutes, regulations, executive orders, litigation, fines, and the like.
All ultimately backed up the government's monopoly on legitimate force, i.e. pointing a gun at your head to gain your compliance. You would enjoy putting a gun to some people's heads a great deal.
*sputter sputter*
How dare you use logic at the Reverend!
“find ways to make bigotry, backwardness, superstition, and can’t-keep-up backwaters more popular in America”
Try to rent a moving truck from California or New York, to take it to Florida or Texas. Compare that effort to renting that same truck in the opposite direction.
The backwaters seem to be popular.
As for bigotry and superstition, I think you, Rev, encapsulate it too well: “better Americans will do it for . . . [those] on the wrong side of history.
Some downscale Americans are being priced out of especially desirable (educated, advanced, diverse, economically sound) communities.
There is also some natural sifting -- downscale, poorly educated, bigoted, superstitious losers feel like outcasts in better communities, so they gravitate toward ignorant, intolerant, gullible areas.
“Lee, a longtime member of the Silicon Valley software development community, had recently moved to Miami.”https://abc13.com/bob-lee-cash-app-tech-san-francisco/13094502/
Elon Musk. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-55246148
Blessed are the cheesemakers, Rev.
(if these points are duplicated in another comment of mine, apologies, the first comment may still be awaiting moderation.)
Not in holy liberal California! Say it ain't so Rev!
Denigrating America's patriots in order to infect the Second Amendment with racism makes it easier today to criminalize the right to keep and bear arms, and is consistent with other contemporary efforts, such as the 1619 Project, to demonize America and its founders.
In other words, Halbrook's politicization is so strong that he feels the need to start throwing partisan jabs in the middle of a supposed legal analysis.
And yet, we're now supposed to trust Halbrook's analysis of the historical record to give us an unbiased view of the past??
At least Halbrook's analysis is based on what the historical sources actually said, rather than the assumption that they were all lying.
And did he include all the relevant quotes or cherry pick the ones that mattered? Did he summarize Bogus's argument fairly or did he imply it all relied on Bogus's weakest link?
When the messenger has lost credibility it's a LOT of work to figure out what, if anything, in their argument in useful.
When you can find the cherries he didn't pick, you'll have a case for cherry picking. Strange how Belesilles bothered fabricating things, when all he had to do was reveal the genuine evidence Halbrook deliberately passed over, isn't it?
Not gonna bother.
I could spent hours filling my head with facts of dubious origin, trying to figure out what misrepresentations he might have pulled, or I can just ignore it.
Left or right, when the deep dive essay starts throwing in partisan cheap-shots it's bound to be pulling some other kinds of BS and there's very little upside to actually digesting it.
Or - you could be doing the time honored tradition of reading and believing what you want and ignoring what doesn’t fit your beliefs. Based on the comments in this thread, it seems to be your forte.
In short, you’re wrong about this subject, but are too stubborn to admit it.
Anyone miss Carl T Bogus & Michael A Bellesiles, “The Second Amendment in Law and History” (New Press, 2002)?
Yep, I am the first to remember it.
I did a search on the comment thread for the title.
As for an earlier assault on 2A, the Library Journal review of Carl Bakal, “NO Right to Bear Arms”, 1966 noted that the book was full of truths, half-truths, and insinuations; bias was the most important ingredient of the book and was painfully obvious; no attempt was made to present a balanced picture.
That tradition of anti-gun second amendment scholarship has been perpetuated by Michael Bellesiles and Carl Bogus.
The Whiskey Rebellion involved state (well regulated) militias, operating with the federal commander in chief riding at the fore of the force.
These days, militias are mostly unregulated, bigoted, disaffected right-wing misfits who love guns, can't stand modern America, and are on the wrong side of history.
Interesting how you defer to these private paramilitary groups’ self-description. If they call themselves militias that’s good enough for you!
I guess they’re trans-militias, in the sense that only a hater would deny their claim to be militias.
"Happy birthday Tricia, I'm in the Michigan Militia..."
Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland 11 mins ago
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"These days, militias are mostly unregulated, bigoted, disaffected right-wing misfits who love guns, can’t stand modern America, and are on the wrong side of history."
perfect description of BLM and Antifa
The Marines also put down the John Brown revolt, didn't they?
Just to prove some extra detail:
John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry was ended by Robert E. Lee, commanding a unit of US Marines. The town militia had turned out to pin Brown in the armory, but were not the ones that ended the siege or captured Brown.
Same way, the Whiskey Rebellion was ended by politics and threats (an army of militia under Federal control around a core of US Army troops), while the only battle that took place was local militia in insurrection against US Army troops.
The militia are a part of pretty much every batch of organized violence in 18th/19th century US, because they were the people there. That included vigilantes, rebellions, and lynch mobs as well as pro-government troops opposing those things. It's not as clear cut as "the militia were on this side, always".
Tell us more about increasingly irrelevant, largely illusory, old-timey "good old days," old-timer.
So you hate history as well.