The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Viability" in Lucas v. South Carolina Coastal Council and Planned Parenthood v. Casey
Justice Blackmun: "Viable is a good medical term, it isn't a legal term, but the lawyers have taken it over and the judges too."
Lucas v. South Carolina Coastal Council held that the government must provide compensation if a regulation deprives the owner of all "economically viable use" of his property. Lucas was argued on March 2, 1992 and Justice Scalia handed down the majority opinion on June 29, 1992. Here is a colloquy from that argument:
JUSTICE BLACKMUN: We're throwing around the term no economic viability of this property. . . . Viable is a good medical term, it isn't a legal term, but the lawyers have taken it over and the judges too. What do you mean by economic viability? . . .
MR LEWIS: So I think when you go down and you take a piece of property from uses down to no uses and from $1 million down to $0, you have a taking under our Constitution regardless of what--
JUSTICE BLACKMUN: That's hardly the medical definition of an old-time term of being viable.
Viability was apparently on Justice Blackmun's mind in Lucas. With good reason.
Planned Parenthood v. Casey was argued the following month on April 22, 1992, and was decided on June 29, 1992. And we know all-too-well that the Casey plurality adopted the viability line as part of the undue burden framework. (Well, everyone but Chief Justice Roberts, at least.)
I had never connected that two Supreme Court decisions, decided on the day, both turned on the concept of viability. In Lucas, the majority opinion per Justice Scalia, concluded that "viability" was a useful line for the Takings Clause; in dissent, Justice Blackmun thought "viability" was not a useful line. Meanwhile, in Casey, the plurality relied on the "viability" line, while the dissenters rejected this line. Of course, economic viability and fetal viability are very different concepts. Still, there is some disconnect.
Finally, Justice Blackmun's dissent in Lucas includes this sentence:
There is nothing magical in the reasoning of judges long dead.
Such a sentence is apiece with another claim Justice Blackmun wrote on June 29, 1992:
I am 83 years old. I cannot remain on this Court forever, and when I do step down, the confirmation process for my successor well may focus on the issue before us today.
Justice Blackmun likely missed the disconnect here as well.
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In what contexts besides Casey had Justice Kennedy or other Justices used "undue"? If that word had been used before Casey, was it used in a similar way to that opinion that he wrote, or was there a disconnect?
I'm no linguist or expert on language, but I recognize that the exact meaning of words can change depending on context. If something being economically viable and a fetus being viable don't mean something very similar in different court decisions, then I am not particularly troubled by that. As a science teacher, I often cringe a little when I see people, including lawyers, use the word "theory" to mean a guess in contexts outside of science. Only if those same people insist that scientific theories, like evolution, relativity, and atomic theory are only guesses that aren't proven am I going to argue with them, however.
The only concern in this case is whether "viable" means the same thing in medical contexts that courts deal with, not with whether it means the same thing in entirely different academic fields.
"Only if those same people insist that scientific theories, like evolution, relativity, and atomic theory are only guesses that aren’t proven am I going to argue with them..."
You'll be in error, then. Scientific theories can be disproven, but never proven. They are indeed guesses, hopefully informed ones, but always subject to replacement if experiment shows that they are wrong.
Note that I said that I would argue with people that said those theories were only guesses. It is the “it’s just a theory” kind of statement from creations that I am talking about. If you use the word “proven” in a mathematical manner or like in formal logic, then yes, nothing in science is ever proven.
But those theories I referenced are far more than guesses. They each have a century or more of experimental evidence supporting them, and have yet to be disproven. They are extremely successful at explaining what is observed in nature and there are no challenges to their correctness being considered by anyone working in those fields. Boundaries are always being pushed in scientific research, and something may one day show them to have been incomplete or only really good approximations of reality. But until that happens, scientists provisionally accept them as being correct.
Really, this is my point. Proof can mean different things in different contexts, even. A person found guilty of a crime had evidence beyond a reasonable doubt against them, but convicted criminals can be and are exonerated on occasion. Yet some people still refer to them as having been “proven” guilty, right?
Let's hear it for Justice Harry Adolf Hitler Blackmun!!! Responsible for 10X as many deaths as the Nazi Horror-cost and never held to answer for his Crimes!
Umm, is that a little harsh??
Frank
Well, it's certainly stupid. But trolls gotta troll.
Stupid?
I'd call "Aborting" (With extreme Prejudice) potential future Amuricans (Did I tell you they are/were predominantly Black?)
more "Evil"
but hey, Trolls gotta Troll
Frank
The one (1) abortion I've been a part of was for an "incompatible with life" fetus. It sucked. She was a wanted child, our first, and it didn't work out. Thankfully the next two did.
Currently, WI (where I call home) would not have allowed that, forced my wife to carry to term. To watch Elenor die within about 10 minutes (guestimating here, I'm a JD not a MD).
Yeah, I have opinions.
*IF* WI law actually says that, your issue is with JDs and not MDs as this isn't what the intent is.
The 1849 law had exceptions only for the life of the mother. A later addition (when Roe made the earlier law unenforceable) bans only abortion after viability, which would seem to allow for the described situation ("there is a reasonable likelihood of sustained survival of the fetus outside the womb, with or without artificial support."), and allows exceptions for the life and health of the mother. It's not clear which law applies, but the new liberal majority on the Wisconsin Supreme Court are likely to find that the latter law overrides the former. Still no exception for rape or incest.
The law made sense for its time. In 1849 medicine couldn’t predict whether a newborn would die almost immediately. Now doctors are looking at fetal anatomy around 15-20 weeks and can counsel a pre-viability abortion if something looks off.
Correct. The legal consensus at this moment in time is that all abortions except to save the life of the mother are illegal in WI. See WI Stat 940.04.
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/940/i/04
That may well change when the challenge to the 1849 law makes it up to the WI S.Ct.
But for now, Ed is completely & demonstrably wrong (as usual).
It absolutely is the intent.
Magister has already corrected you, but your determined ignorance is invincible, isn't it?
Magister did not in fact "correct me." (How on earth do you think citing a statute tells us what the legislative intent was?)
To not perform abortions when birth would expose the child to a world full of idiotic hateful racists, like yourself Frank, would be malpractice
Abortions for everyone!!!!
and speaking of Idiotic Hateful Raceists (Spelling it wrong makes YOUR a Race-ist)
POTUS Senescent/Sleepy Joe claimed bussing would result in Jungle Schools (it did, unless you accept that Jungle Schools are better) Supported the 90's "Crime Bill" with it's
"Assault Weapon Ban" (thoughtfully only lasting for 10 years) and Increased Sentences for Violent/Drug Crimes (Which went down, wow, wonder why)
Oh, and did I tell you he voted for the AUMF in 2003??
Yeah, who would want to expose fetuses to that??
Frank
Murdering unborn people lest they encounter Frank is just the ticket, eh? Why stop there? Maybe killing YOU to save you from that fate worse than death is what's called for?
Also, the only reason it matters is that a "viable" fetus could survive outside the womb with a good chance at a healthy life. Thus, a woman's desire to not be pregnant does not conflict with the ability of the fetus to survive.
Umm, you are aware there is this Field of Medicine called "Neonatology" and in this field the age of Viability has been reduced to...(OK, I'm not a Neonatologist, had a Vasectomy, doesn't affect me)
But I'm pretty sure it's much earlier than the "At Birth" Governor Black Face Northern talked about,
Frank
“[Third trimester abortions are] done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus that’s nonviable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen,” Northam, a pediatric neurosurgeon, told Washington radio station WTOP. “The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”
I understood what he was saying. The "discussion" would be over whether to go to extraordinary lengths to keep an infant with conditions virtually certain to be fatal alive for a short life of suffering or to let it pass. It was people like you that want to see something horrible in what he said that found it useful to make into something controversial.
[Third trimester abortions are] done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus that’s nonviable."
"May" is doing a lot of the work here. Third trimester abortions are also done in cases where there aren't any medical issues at all, just that the mother doesn't want to be a mother.
That’s a blatant lie. You’re not confused. You don’t have a different interpretation of a controversial or confounding topic. You are just lying. Period.
I'm looking forward to seeing if Judge Kacsmaryk's theories of standing and SOL are viable ... and I'm pretty skeptical under any legal or medical definition of "viable".
Place your money bets, people. Does Judge K go down 8-1 or only 7-2 at the S.Ct.?
What’s being missed are the three changes the FDA made — permitting telemedicine, mailed pills, and any pharmacy having it.
I can see that part being upheld.
I can even see Kagan saying "go back to the old rules.
Been a Sceptic of "Telemedicine" from way back,
I get that todays "Providers" don't know how to examine a patient (They "Literally" don't know how, the "Providers" they learn from don't know how, I barely remember and I examine patients all the time)
and if you don't care your Provider doesn't examine you, who cares if they prescribe (and Nurse Practitioner's don't take Pharmacology, which is why they routinely prescribe 2 Penicillins, 2 NSAIDS's, medications contraindicated for the patients history, but I digress,
The Pharmacy's are actually pretty good, calling to see if some Nurse Practitioner I supervised 10 years ago is authorized to prescribe in my name (she isn't) but hey, they're in the business of filling Prescriptions,
Somehow I don't think Kagan is really worried about getting an abortion,
Frank
None of which relate to FDA's decision in 2000 to approve the drug, rendering Judge Kacsmaryk's desired remedy of taking mifeprestone off the market completely unsupported.
And how do you suggest plaintiffs would have standing to challenge any of those "changes the FDA made"? Maybe someone would, but not these plaintiffs.
There are some pretty basic reasons that those parts will not be upheld.
A viable use of the land will permit the developer to survive -- ie not go bankrupt.
That would depend ion the size of the mortgage taken out to buy it.
Which is a reason for for treating identical property differently.
Which seems a bad place to end up.
Jason, I think there is a distinction here — I define a “viable” fetus is one which is reasonably expected to grow into a baby that can survive outside the womb, not just one that can right now.
Hence the fetus that has no brain/spinal cord is never going to survive outside the womb, but the healthy 12 week fetus is reasonably expected to, and while those a bit older might be able to right now, it’s best to leave them in the womb.
And to get Orwellian, how far are we from artificial wombs???
Umm, about 10 inches
https://sextoycollective.com/best-male-sex-toys/pocket-pussy/
Frank
Hence the fetus that has no brain/spinal cord is never going to survive outside the womb, but the healthy 12 week fetus is reasonably expected to, and while those a bit older might be able to right now, it’s best to leave them in the womb.
From what I can find, serious birth defects like what you describe are routinely screened for between 15 and 20 weeks, and might not be detected (perhaps not even possibly detected) at 12 weeks. What you think might be a healthy 12 week fetus could actually already be doomed, but it could be impossible to detect the defect at that point. Would you still insist that a 12 week fetus is viable if there is no way to know whether it will be born healthy?
This is really the issue it seems. You think about the potential to finish developing into a healthy baby as making it equal to a healthy baby. I do not.
And to get Orwellian, how far are we from artificial wombs???
I think you mean Huxley, not Orwell, if you're thinking of A Brave New World.
Speculation about how society would change if artificial wombs became reality is interesting, but at least it would have the benefit of women no longer having to risk their lives to perpetuate the species.
No, I was thinking Orwell's "Anti Sex League" and the efforts the state made to stomp out sex. As _1984_ was written in response to _Brave New World_, I presumed that the means of reproduction was the same -- although on review, Orwell doesn't mention where babies come from.
This is really the issue it seems. You think about the potential to finish developing into a healthy baby as making it equal to a healthy baby. I do not.
No response to this? It is, after all, the core difference in point of view between the two sides.
If viability means capable of living like a human being in a civilized society, then blacks are not viable at any point, including after birth.
You'd be surprised -- TV MASH was based on a real MD from Breeman, Maine (Lincoln County).
Has anyone noticed that Drackman's mastery of the English language is about equal to Trump's? You know: the misspellings, the sentence structure, the nonsensical use of capitalization, the grade level, the obtuseness? Wait a minute! Has anyone ever seen Drackman and Trump in the same place at the same time? Do you think . . . .
https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/christiana-mall-shooting-newark-delaware-what-we-know/
You, or Ayn Rand, saying so does not make it so.
Lil' Frankie: a moron yesterday and a moron today. Anyone want to guess what tomorrow will bring?
Every one a white male christian. Just like you, allegedly.
https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-texas-pastors-charged-abusing-children-1765910
That just covers Texas in 2022, btw.