The Volokh Conspiracy
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A "Water Pistol Unnecessarily Preceding" a "Missile-Launching F-35 Attack": Thoughts on the New York Trump Indictment
Trump very much deserves to be prosecuted and punished. But the New York case is far more dubious than the other charges likely to be brought against him.

Earlier this week, New York state prosecutor Alvin Bragg filed 34 state criminal law charges against Donald Trump, all arising from payoffs to his former mistress, porn star Stormy Daniels. Trump richly deserves to be prosecuted and punished for a variety of crimes. But this particular set of charges is unimpressive. Hopefully, they will soon become a relative sideshow, as Trump faces the music for at least some of his more serious wrongdoing.
There is nothing inherently wrong with charging a former president. Democracies around the world have tried and (in many cases) convicted current and former heads of government. Examples include France, Italy, Israel, and South Korea, among others. No one can seriously argue that these nations have become "banana republics" as a result.
In some cases, it is extremely important to try and punish high-ranking political leaders, as when their lawbreaking threatens basic liberal-democratic norms and institutions. Such a scenario can arise if the president tries to rig an election and stay in power after being defeated, to take a not-so-hypothetical situation. Punishing a president who participates in such a scheme is actually more important than punishing an ordinary person who tries to do the same thing, as the president's vast power and influence enable him to do much greater harm.
In most situations, however, we should not punish a prominent political leader for things that wouldn't get charged in the case of an ordinary person. If the average citizen won't get charged for jaywalking or for possessing a small amount of marijuana, neither should a former president. In a legal system with far too many petty laws, almost anyone can potentially be charged with something. We don't want to create a situation where prosecutors go on fishing expeditions to nail controversial celebrities or political adversaries.
When it comes to the New York charges, I largely agree with former Trump lawyer Ty Cobb (not to be confused with the legendary baseball Hall of Famer with the same name):
"I think the Bragg case is the water pistol unnecessarily preceding the missile-launching F-35 attack piloted by Jack Smith with [Attorney General] Merrick Garland as his wingman."
I won't go through all the potential flaws in Bragg's case. But prominent election law scholar Rick Hasen, Ian Milhiser of Vox, and former Cato Institute election law expert Andy Craig all have helpful analyses, and all have serious doubts about the soundness of the charges. Furthermore, none of them can easily be dismissed as Trump sympathizers eager to get him off the hook. Regular readers know that I'm no MAGA type myself, either.
I would add that, if New York courts decide the relevant law is ambiguous, that might still lead to a ruling in Trump's favor. Many states have abolished the rule of lenity, which requires ambiguities in criminal laws to be interpreted in the defendant's favor. New York, however, has not. In People v. Badji (2021), the New York Court of Appeals (the state's highest court), ruled that the rule of lenity applies "where the courts have the task of discerning the undeclared will of the legislature in an ambiguous statute," though it also went on to state that the ambiguity in question must be a "grevious" one.
I don't know if any of the issues raised by Craig, Hasen, and Millhiser rise to the level of "grevious" ambiguities. But some might. The difference between a "grevious" ambiguity and a regular ambiguity is itself often ambiguous!
It's not impossible that the prosecutor can ultimately prevail here. But his theory of the case is legally questionable and the underlying offense is pretty minor, especially compared to the genuinely awful things Trump has done. This isn't like getting Al Capone for tax evasion (a historical precedent to which Bragg's case has been compared). It's more like getting Capone for speeding a few miles over the limit in an area where the speed limit is unclear. And it's certainly reasonable to suspect these charges would not have been brought if the suspect were an ordinary Joe, as opposed to Trump.
The other likely charges against Trump are far stronger legally, and they relate to genuinely great evil on Trump's part (e.g. - attempting to stay in power despite having lost an election). The congressional January 6 Committee has recommended four potential charges related to Trump's efforts to reverse the outcome of the 2020 election and disrupt Congress' proceedings in certifying the electoral vote count (see pp. 98-118 of the Committee Report). I think at least three of these are very compelling (I have more doubts about the fourth charge of inciting, assisting, or providing aid and comfort to an insurrection). Georgia state prosecutors seem likely to file charges related to Trump's efforts to corrupt the election in that state. Those charges, too, seem likely to be strong. There is also the investigation into Trump's illegal retention of classified documents after he left the White House. The latter, like potential federal charges related to January 6, is under investigation by special counsel Jack Smith.
I hope and expect that Trump will go down for at least some of the above issues. In an ideal world, he would also deserve to serve time in prison for ordering the brutal (and illegal) family separation policy. Sadly, various unjust immunity doctrines preclude that.
At the very least, when - as seems likely - charges are brought in some or all of these other cases, the New York Stormy Daniels case will - rightly - begin to seem insignificant by comparison. Given Trump's extensive history of egregiously evil and illegal behavior, there is no need to resort to dubious legal theories about minor issues in order to give him his just deserts. Try and convict the man for his genuinely serious offenses.
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"Trump richly deserves to be prosecuted and punished for a variety of crimes. "
Isn't this supposed to be a legal blog?
List a few of the Statues "45"s violated.
do any of them involve leaving a young woman to asphyxiate (not drowned, there's a difference) in an Oldsmobile Delta 88??
Frank
"Trump very much deserves to be prosecuted and punished. "
Well, that saved some reading time.
Bumble stomps his dainty little foot and declares "I shall read no more!". You can't understand the thread or the issues so be on your way, you effeminate, annoying little troll.
Wow, Internet Tough Guy, gonna look bad when he keeps commenting, challenge him to meet you behind the HTML.
At least he's not bringing up 50 year old whataboutism; he does have that going for him.
No Statue of Limitations on Murder, unlike the bullshit Trumps being charged with.
At most it was manslaughter which does have a statute of limitations. That aside it’s pretty tough to prosecute someone who’s been dead ten years.
But none of that is even the point. If you absolutely positively must what about, try to at least find something more recent than 1969.
Ok I just looked it up and in most state’s manslaughter doesn’t have a SOL either so I was wrong about that part. The rest of my point stands.
Well, if you say so, but better to stomp my foot than step on my dick as you step on yours whenever you comment.
What a bizarre thing to say! What do you fantasize about me doing while I comment? I'm curious.
Has nothing to do with fantasy ,only Brothers stupid comments.
You lose all your "centrist" street cred if you don't say, "Trump is bad, but..."
Or you honestly can think that Trump is a criminal AND that the NY case against him is a clown show. Some of us don't care about "street cred."
His brother gets a pass because he was murdered -- all four murdered Presidents do -- but JFK deserved to go to prison for what he did. As did every other President since, with the possible exception of Jerry Ford. The stories about LBJ boggle the imagination, and D or R since, they all did worse than Trump.
IF Trump really wished to do what Ilya accuses him of, he'd have simply cited Covid and declared martial law. Maybe before the election (maybe cancelling the election), maybe during the WEEK while the ballots were being "counted", and maybe afterwards -- but he'd have done it, after having cleaned out everyone who would object to him doing it first.
So he called authorities in Georgia asking them to look into several situations where he believed he had been cheated -- that's not a crime, nor is mentioning that merely one of these situations would give him enough votes to win. Nor is using intemperate language -- upset candidates have been doing that for the history of this country.
While I'm glad that Ilya is willing to concede that the Crucifixion is wrong, I fail to understand why he is supporting other stuff that would make the Klu Klux Klan look honorable...
What did JFK do?
Had sex with Marilyn Monroe?
The version I heard is that it was a Delmont 88 and not a Delta 88 -- Oldsmobile only made the Delmont in '67 & '68. In any case, here is a picture of it:
https://www.history.com/news/ted-kennedy-chappaquiddick-incident-what-really-happened-facts
My Bad, I'm not that good on my Oldsmobile model year spotting.
Trump probably deserves to be prosecuted for something
Though can anyone explain why Hillary or any of the bidens havent been prosecuted for their corruption.
It is a double standard by an extremely wide margin.
"Though can anyone explain why Hillary or any of the bidens havent been prosecuted for their corruption."
(D)
The list of Republicans who have had power over Hillary Clinton, yet failed to find anything on her, is pretty long. You have the Republican FBI Director appointed by a Republican President. You have the numerous Republican Congressional committees who investigated her extensively and never found enough to refer her out for prosecution. Etc.
...are you helping OJ search for the real killers?
Are you helping Giuliani and his Russian agent pals search Ukraine for dirt on Hunter Biden?
They found plenty but the two tiered DOJ wouldn't do anything about it.
Ok you’ve added others to that long list.
You've got 'found' and 'acted on' confused.
There had long been a very corrupt bargain going on in the US, where each President held their predecessor harmless for any crimes they'd committed, and in return could expect their successor to hold them harmless in turn.
Trump ran on ending that bargain, but in the end he chickened out. Biden actually did it.
Could it be that Hillary wasn't indicted despite her wrongdoing being the GOP's drumbeat for decades because there is no strong case?
No, it is a massive cross-party conspiracy!
Also a conspiracy: the actual indictment and investigations of Trump.
Conspiracies everywhere Brett disagrees with the consensus. This is how the pros do it folks - a narrative smooth like glass; reality cannot get in.
Let me guess: You actually found Clinton's "Vast right-wing conspiracy" theory plausible. And that's she was a really, really good day trader, too.
What I think is that the Clintons were continually embroiled in, and surrounded with, scandals, because they behaved scandalously. But that they were very good at skating the line between "everybody knows you did it" and "it can be proved in court that you did it".
If anything, they enjoyed skating that line a bit too much, and did stupid things for that thrill. Like "finding" the Rose law firm billing records in the Library room just after the statute of limitations expired, instead of just quietly burning them.
But I don't think they were skating the line so well that they could have survived the same treatment Trump gets.
I don’t think they were skating the line so well that they could have survived the same treatment Trump gets.
Both Clintons got the same treatment as Trump. You just don't want to believe it, so you don't.
I don't know what a vast rightwing conspiracy would entail.
I think the Clintons always played fast and loose with the law.
I think the GOP as an institution and the right as a movement really really really hated the Clintons for a lot of reasons.
I think the GOP absolutely tried to get the Clintons on criminal charges many, many times.
I think that the GOP failure to do so indicates that the Clintons managed to go up to the line of plausible deniability, but not go past it. Except for lying about that blowjob.
I think that Trump has people who really really hate him as well. And the success in finding many crimes indicates he is not one to care about playing footsie with the line of illegality; he just does what he wants.
I think Trump's quotes and actions while President back that up.
I think you have this narrative of conspiracies where whatever you want to be true is true, and being covered up by a conspiracy between the Dems and GOP. Which lets you appeal to incredulity over and over again, making the facts and analysis all Brett all the time.
Your reality has become hermetically sealed. It's comforting; all your heroes get to be heroes, all your villains get to be villains.
Google "no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case" for a good time.
Nah, see above. It's not the finding of the crimes that's the problem -- it's finding someone with the cajones to actually bring charges against a Clinton. As aptly shown by this case, with Trump it's more a race to the courthouse with whatever sad, threadbare case you can cobble together.
Last I checked there were plenty of GOP prosecutors for whom that'd be quite a feather in their cap. And then there is the actual GOP-lead DoJ.
A feather in their cap, or a rose on their casket?
Holy fuck are you going Clinton Death List?
Welp, no point in discussing with a barking lunatic; come back when your baseline facts don't come from a moronic conspiracy theory.
Ah, yes. Because the Clintons murder all of their political opponents.
Ah, yes, as shown by one single case brought eight years after Trump first came down that escalator, everyone's racing at top speed to indict him!
Of course not, silly goose. But it's certainly interesting how such a sizeable number of people who cross them suddenly acquire suicidal tendencies or suddenly find themselves the focal point of a random outburst of fatal violence. Who's really to know if you might be the next one to get on the wrong side of those odds?
This is a mindbogglingly silly thing to say right in the middle of a discussion about the relative merits of at least 3 different brewing cases, innit? And you've apparently forgotten the duet of impeachments that everyone well understood had no chance of going anywhere, and the OMG NOOCULER SECRUTS debacle last year. It's been a few months -- time to pull the lever and get something in the news cycle!
Give it up. Hundreds of rabid Republicans kept giving it their best shot, over and over and over.
The Republican FBI director caused a report that tracked the language of a criminal statute going back to WWI to be amended to avoid using the statutory language. And then decided that "no prosecutor" would bring a case against her, even though he is not a prosecutor and is not charged by law with making such decisions.
He then fumbled the presentation, which the Hillary camp believes cost her the election.
So, no, that proves nothing other than that said FBI director is a corrupt fool.
None of which exonerates Trump, who IMO should go to jail for worse behavior.
OK, dude. You've figured it out. Only that one FBI director had a chance to prosecute her, and that opinion was wrong because yours is better.
You're still being outcome-oriented and overdetermined.
The concept of "innocent until proven guilty" comes to mind. Lack of evidence is another. Hunter Biden may get his day as a defendant in court, of course, because that investigation isn't completed. No matter how many times people wistfully write "Biden crime family," it doesn't make it true.
Shawn - Tons of publicly available info on the corruption.
Are you saying that information doesnt exist
or are saying the corruption isnt corruption
or are you saying the facts are not true.
Can't speak for Shawn but maybe he's saying the investigation isn't over yet. Hunter Biden may yet be a criminal defendant. Investigations move like molasses running uphill. The Trump charges are what, six years old?
Shawn deviates to Hunter while ignoring Hillary & Big Boy Biden.
"The Washington Post reported on Thursday that prosecutors believe they have “sufficient evidence” to charge Biden, son of President Joe Biden, in two areas – tax crimes and a false statement regarding a gun purchase, the same crimes CNN reported in July were the focus of investigators’ discussions with the Justice Department. "
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/06/politics/hunter-biden-investigation-federal-prosecutors-weighing-charges/index.html
The tax crimes and gun charges are seriously small potatoes in the bid picture
Only felonies that regular Joes go to jail for
he’s saying the investigation isn’t over yet. Hunter Biden may yet be a criminal defendant
The comparison isn't if Biden,etal committed crimes.
The comparison is No actions taken by Trump are worse than acts of those that have gone before him.
Also we have ample evidence The FBI,DoJ, IC, State Dept, NSC are corrupt political agencies.
That last 7 years have provided ample evidence
The most recent in the report covering the Afgahnistan debacle. It spent 4 pages blaming Trump, Despite Biden is the CiC. The CiC with final say.
'The comparison is No actions taken by Trump are worse than acts of those that have gone before him.'
It's an argument. Doesn't stand up to scrutiny, but it's an argument.
Nige - again demonstrates his detachment from reality and basic critical thinking skills
I mean I definitely think W Bush & Co did way worse things, cheered on at the time by commenters on this very bog, that just doesn’t mean Trump didn’t do bad things. But the game of ‘making comparisons’ won’t really stand up in court.
There is medicine available for your detachment from reality
There's hope for you yet, so.
If you claim ignorance of SoS conducting all official govt business over an unapproved, unsecured server, sure.
If you claim ignorance of Obama citing in a letter to the NA he has secured all documents, including classified documents.
If you ignore the FBI. DoJ, State dept, IC, etal spying on a presidential campaign.
Stop simping for him. He's not worth it.
There's tons of publicly available bullshit.
Hunter Biden may well be a crook, or just a standard sleazy relative of a politician. We'll see.
But "the Biden crime family" is RW nonsense. As are Hillary's alleged crimes.
The claim that DOJ officials ignored all this felonious behavior by Joe Biden and Hillary is ridiculous, like everything BCD posts.
Well Trump spent 4 years instructing is AG to find something to charge them with and failed.
That tells me that the QAnon conspiracy theorists have been misleading you and there's no real evidence that Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden are corrupt.
Though Hunter Biden may have broken the law, and is being investigated by a special prosecutor accordingly.
That's simply not true.
What, they ran out of anything to investigate before the 4 years were up?
myself 15 hours ago
"That tells me that the QAnon conspiracy theorists have been misleading you and there’s no real evidence that Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden are corrupt."
Yea right - absolutely zero evidence that money flowed from the chinese to the bidens
Absolutely zero evidence that money flowed from Ukraine to the bidens
Absolutely zero evidence that money flowed to the clintons via the pay to play scheme
Absolutely zero evidence that money flowed from the clinton campaign to fund the steele dossier
Yeah, Joe. That's right. No evidence of the first 2 things, and nothing corrupt about the third.
The shit blogs you read and believe telling you something doesn't mean it's true.
Sarcastr0 48 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Yeah, Joe. That’s right. No evidence of the first 2 things, and nothing corrupt about the third."
Sacastro - Intellectual honesty is not your forte
Retreating to high-handed calling people liars for calling your ipse dixit tactics bullshit is your forte.
Sarcstro - So are you claiming that -
absolutely zero evidence that money flowed from the chinese to the bidens
Absolutely zero evidence that money flowed from Ukraine to the bidens
Absolutely zero evidence that money flowed to the clintons via the pay to play scheme
Absolutely zero evidence that money flowed from the clinton campaign to fund the steele dossier.
If so, my point is valid . Intellectual honesty is not your forte
No your point is not valid until you specify your scope, you supercilious ass.
Legal money is not really relevant to a conversation about corruption.
Assume for the sake of argument that "money flowed." ("The bidens" is a great weasel phrase, but set that aside.) What does that have to do with prosecuting them? Is it illegal to make money?
Because District Attorney Comey didn't think it warranted prosecution.
The current prosecution seems like a chickenshit version of what all the Dems insisted that it would be ridiculous to prosecute Bill Clinton for.
I love the delusion all these Lefties are willfully participating in.
As if legal theories matter and the judge and jury will be open minded neutral arbiters mindfully listening to the arguments presented by the prosecutors and defense. And not hyperpartisans eager to put their thumbs on the scale against a political opponent.
The only morons who believe that happen to be the exact same morons who believe its unlawful to challenge an election you allegedly lost.
Speaking of Leftist delusions: What happens when POTUS Obama is indicted? Do you honestly think that is not going to happen? It is going to happen and it will be terrible.
The country should start thinking about that, and thinking about that arraignment and what it would look like, because the shoe will surely be on the other foot. A really bad precedent has been set, and I honestly do not see a way around it. Politicians are gonna....politician (meaning, continually up the ante).
I very much want to be wrong about this, but am queasy at our future prospects and dreading the next 'upping the ante' maneuver....which is bound to happen.
I hope he is arrested. Him and his husband have done more to harm this country than any single person in it's history.
I saw what you did there! "Him and his husband" Barry Hussein has stayed on the "Down Low" for most of the time since he left Orifice, he's sort of becoming the heir to Jimmuh Cartuh without that inane House building (would you want to live in House Jimmuh Cartuh built?)
Frank
Who? I know DJT thinks he's entitled to three terms, but I don't believe BHO feels the same way about himself.
I used the title of his former office.
Former Presidents are always described as President when referring to them, even after leaving office.
Not by me. It’s a job, not a title of nobility. When one leaves a job one no longer should be addressed by the job title.
Knock yourselves out, but do W Bush and his cronies too, if you want to go for real evil. I'm genuinely having a hard time seeing the downside of holding ex-presidents accountable for illegal shit they did while in power.
Not sure why you think going after Bush is a bridge too far. Bury them too.
So if the presiding judge (actually justice, it's NY) dismisses the indictment, will you admit that the entire system is not fixed?
One of the problems with the water pistol attack is that it makes it seem like there is no F-35 attack, because if there was, why the water pistol sideshow? There have been so many "they got him this time!" moments in the past six years that the jokes have gotten old. Wake me when you have your F-35 attack teed up.
^This.
Yup.
There's a montage of Trump "the walls are closing in" that's pretty funny.
No, that’s wrong. The water-pistol attack makes the F-35 attack much more likely. The first shot has already been fired. It doesn’t matter that it does no damage itself.
Now that the presidential indictment seal has been broken, there’s no longer any sort of great precedent or norm to preserve. Georgia and DoJ have one less thing to worry about when deciding whether to bring charges.
Indeed
https://nypost.com/2023/04/03/alvin-braggs-indictment-of-donald-trump-might-open-a-pandoras-box-for-democrats/
I think you overestimate how much Democrats care about Jimmy Biden. Go for it! File “picayune” charges against all of them! That would actually be the best outcome from all of this.
It would solidify Democrats as the new party of law enforcement and justice. And it would demonstrate that unlike you guys, we don’t think of our politicians as cult leaders. Or Jesus.
I like how the Democrats who are persecuting Trump and Capitol Tourists are crying endlessly over those insurrectionists in TN who got expelled for insurrecting against Democracy.
Yeah, no one's buying this. So by all means, keep spouting it. It's utterly unconvincing, and in fact serves only to remind people what a shithead Trump is. Keep it up! Talk about Jan 6 as much as possible please, at least until November 2024.
As far as you know, how many Feds were in the crowd participating/instigating?
As far as you know, how many of the 13 alleged Proud Boys plotters were FBI informants?
They could all have been, but so what? They still did the crimes. Crucify the FBI if they had advance knowledge and let it go ahead, fuck those guys, but you're whining within a context that is entirely your own, you are, as they say, sniffing your own farts.
And those farts are turning off voters. Keep it up! Stay smelly, Jan 6!
Another way of looking at it could be that this is the pebble that precedes an avalanche, but so what? Public preception has nothing to do with whether he's broken the law and going to be indicted for it or not.
Meh. This misdemeanor case against Trump seems pretty slam-dunk. If we accept that the elevation to felony status is weak (or worse than week), then Trump still did 34 crimes. Albeit minor, non-violent ones.
It's not the case I'd have started with. But that only goes to show that there is no grand conspiracy to 'get Trump.' If there were a conspiracy, then prosecutors would have colluded with each other, so that the strongest case(s) could go first. Bragg is an independent prosecutor, and he filed the case he thought he could win. Trump will go into court with the presumption of innocence, and we'll see what 12 jurors think of the evidence. I have zero idea what their verdict will end up being.
I've probably jerked off 5,000 times in my life (I'm the Wilt Chamberlain of jerking off) and yes, I'm married, like I said, I jerk off.
And if it was a crime, could I be charged for 5,000 counts??, (July 1, 1973, July 2, 1973, July 2 1973, July 3, 1973 (1973 was a good year)......)
Assuming no statute of limitations problem and assuming the evidence was there to support it, sure.
How often do you have to shave your palms?
that's a myth, as is the "Going Blind"
20/20 both eyes, no glasses (OK the cheaters for reading)
You mean the nuns lied to me?
No wonder your penis is unattractive! All that wanking must take a toll.
"No wonder your penis is unattractive! "
Speaking from experience I presume.
Nope, just Google Translate.
over 50 years?? probably less than the average
"As if legal theories matter and the judge and jury will be open minded neutral arbiters mindfully listening to the arguments presented by the prosecutors and defense. And not hyperpartisans eager to put their thumbs on the scale against a political opponent.
Are you aware that you are swinging the axe at the foundation of a state of law? You CLAIM that the DA, the judge and the (unknown) jury are hyper partisans, is nothing but a pre-emptive strike against a possible conviction of Comrade Chan Jianguo.
Your alternative seems to be to resolve legal disputes by what? An AR-15 shoot-out?
Why does that necessarily follow? It's not like they can't run in parallel, and as far as I know they're all based on different sets of alleged facts so it's not like there would be any preclusion issues from an earlier-finishing case. And I'd have to think the reception of this sort of nitty-shit case would only get worse were it held until after the supposedly stronger ones, so if you're going to run it at all there's probably no better time than the present.
Oh, and all that aside Bragg already has SoL problems, so it's probably nowish or never.
"It’s not the case I’d have started with. But that only goes to show that there is no grand conspiracy to ‘get Trump.’ If there were a conspiracy, then prosecutors would have colluded with each other, so that the strongest case(s) could go first."
I guess you consider two impeachments and Senate trials weren't "strong" cases at least in terms of the real desire, which is to keep Trump from running again.
So the real issue here, is that you aren't intellectually capable of wrapping your head around why what Trump did deserved Impeachment.
Other shocking news at 9.
No, the "real" issue here is the never ending claims of illegal actions by Trump, which have all fallen flat to date. Since the beginning of his Presidency the only aim was to remove him from office and having failed to date the emphasis now to to keep him from running and winning again.
Whether you intended to or not, you proved my point better than I did.
Bill Barr isn't covering for him any more.
Jason 's comment regarding impeachment - mirrors NPR's coverage of the Trump impeachment.
Non stop coverage of the illegal nature of requesting an investigation of a political opponent, but nary a word about the extensive level of corruption warranting an investigation.
Your understanding of the facts is, as usual, completely flawed.
To begin with, the alleged corruption was already being dealt with. The second, more important point that you're pretending doesn't exist, is that Trump didn't give a flying fuck about an investigation or its results.
All he wanted was an announcement, so that Biden's election prospects would be hurt by the implication.
You are a gullible idiot.
You might actually become knowledgable regarding the facts before commentating
Indeed I might, as I've done so here.
You, on the other hand, show no such potential.
I'm sorry that you're ignorant and wrong.
Every one of these DAs do not need to be colluding in order for their to be a conspiracy.
There can be multiple ones that aren’t coordinating together.
We know there was a conspiracy to undermine his presidency.
We know there was a conspiracy to undermine his candidacy.
We know there was a conspiracy to undermine his reelection.
Were these single conspiracies run by a single evil villain? No. But there were conspiracies nonetheless.
You elected the Trump Universirty and Trump Foundation guy, and still reckon it's inconceivable that he's a crook.
How was your trip with Mr. Peabody?
Oh yeah, I forgot to tell the racist anti-semite above to fuck off.
Yeah, it might be slam dunk as a misdemeanor case, but it's being prosecuted as a felony case.
They can't prosecute as a misdemeanor. Statue of limitations ran out years ago.
Ilya makes a very good point that Ordinary Joe wouldn't be tried for the misdemeanors, and thus the case looks strictly political. Add to that Trump was trying to cover up sex, and you can see a parallel to Clinton.
That being said, Ilya hits the nail on the head. The other possible charges related to trying to steal an election are legitimate.
Well, they look legitimate if you start out with TDS, anyway. Maybe they don't look so strong to the people who'd have to prosecute them.
What exactly is criminal about "stealong an election"?
A fair question. Historically, that would count as setting yourself up as a rival for sovereignty. In other systems of government, high treason. The U.S. has omitted specifically to criminalize that behavior—an omission which present events show ought to be corrected.
Of course, in Trump's case, he made the mistake to plot violence to obstruct the final electoral step. That counts as treason in the U.S. constitutional sense, a capital crime with which Trump ought to be charged, although I doubt prosecutors have the fortitude to do it.
You and people like Illya live in a different universe.
You say this as an insult but it's actually true. They get so their info from different sources. They're literally looking at the world differently. Pitty them for their brains have been poisoned by a false narrative. The contradictions they have to believe break their minds. They think conservatives wouldn't bring guns to an insurrection.
Perhaps O.C.G.A. 16-4-7, GA Code § 21-2-604, 52 USC 20511, 18 U.S.C. § 371.
He was attempting to 'steal an election' by advancing somewhat dubious theories of it already having been stolen, and demanding that they be investigated rather than being dismissed on technicalities. That is to say, he WAS going through the system. Even on January 6th, he was attempting a fairly conventional effort at applying political pressure, by holding a big political rally on the Mall at the same time that Congress was doing the counting, in an effort to influence, politically, the last body that could legally change the trajectory of things.
The riot actually terminated his efforts, rather than advancing them. It wasn't something he'd planned, it actually foiled his plans.
Now, I happen to think a lot of his theories were really dubious, but he had a legitimate beef, in that in all likelihood he WOULD have won if not for some elections practices illegally rolled out using Covid as a pretext. At the EC level, it was a very close election, he was only a bit over 40K votes in key states away from having won.
And the hell of it is, those changes WERE challenged before the election, and the courts wouldn't entertain them because he'd suffered no 'harm' yet. But they wouldn't entertain them after the election, because it was too late to do anything. Bit of a catch-22 there.
Still, I think he should have stopped his challenges after the EC voted. Not everything that is barely within the bounds of legality is something you should actually do!
he WAS going through the system. Even on January 6th, he was attempting a fairly conventional effort at applying political pressure, by holding a big political rally on the Mall at the same time that Congress was doing the counting, in an effort to influence, politically, the last body that could legally change the trajectory of things.
Weird choice for a speech if he only wanted to apply political pressure.
And then there's all the backchannel stuff his folks were doing.
And then there's that powerpoint about getting Pence to break the law.
And then there is the 'let them keep their guns it's not me they want to hurt.
And the phone calls asking for precisely the amount of votes he wanted.
And strong-arming the Ukraine not for an investigation but to announce an investigation.
he WOULD have won if not for some elections practices illegally rolled out using Covid as a pretext.
Your ability to fail to learn something that you don't wanna is incredible. How many times has it been explained to you how you're wrong? And now you're calling *judicial opinions illegal* because you don't agree with them. Next step is becoming like BCD or Ben, Brett.
Just like with birtherism, you try and legitimize the illegitimate on your side by conceding some dumbass shit, but not quite everything.
Just the tip still gets you pregnant, Brett.
The call to Georgia officials was not “going through the system.” The plan to send falsely-declared sanctioned alternate slates of electors was not “going through the system.” Pressuring DOJ officials to falsely declare there was widespread fraud and attempting to install a toady who would so was not “going through the system.” Pressuring Pence to unilaterally reject slates of electors was not “going through the system.” Failing to act in the middle of the riot was not “going through the system.” Convincing people of the clear lie that there was widespread election fraud and then calling those people to protest based on that lie after the electoral college voted was not “going through the system.”
He thought Pence would throw it to him and his mob would proclaim him Emperor. He thought his stacked Supreme Court would throw it to him. His supporters thought the same.
A problem is the statute of limitations on the misdemeanor is only 2 years, so it already expired.
Of course he was President during that period... so difficult to prosecute.
Though I agree the felony version probably should not have been pursued.
The DOJ has a policy of not prosecuting the President during his term in office, but states aren't actually bound by it, it's just an internal policy, not a constitutional shield.
Not bound by it, but there would have been a major controversy if a State tried to prosecute a sitting President for a misdemeanor.
So as I said, difficult to prosecute.
Not if you look at the charges closely. Once a month recording invoices, making journal entries, and signing checks, for a year, minus doubling up the first two months. That’s the 34 (3*12-2) charges. This was Trump’s personal money, and so were never really business expenses. For 23 of the charges, the people docketing the invoices and making the journal entries did not work for PJDT. He had no supervisory power over them. He had resigned being their boss the month before the first payment had been made (right before taking the oath of office as President). So, legally, probably no Respondeat Superior liability.
It all revolved around the bookkeeping behind Trump repaying Cohen for the money he had given Stormy Daniels, in exchange for the NDA that she signed (and ultimately breached). The invoices, ledger entries, and checks were all apparently marked “legal fees”. They were, of course, paid to an attorney, who had submitted them as part of his monthly bill. Which makes some sense, since that is what you pay attorneys. Except that the allegation is that they were campaign expenses, and not fees for legal services rendered. Is that enough to hang their hat on? And, yes, Trump apparently did disclose them as campaign expenses that he personally paid. Of course, as he was self funding, he could legally spend as much as he wanted to get elected, and did.
Was anyone harmed? Probably not. It was a non deductible expense, regardless. It didn’t change his tax status. It was Trump’s money, regardless, and the only one who might have been defrauded or harmed by the bookkeeping there was Trump himself.
This was Trump’s personal money,
It was the Trump Organization, no?
NO
YES. That's why the charge is falsifying business records.
Um, he didn't sell the companies. Whether he had a formal title doesn't change the fact that he was the owner of them, which means they did in fact work for him.
Of his money, not the Trump Organization's money. And he still had to disclose that spending.
“Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime”
--- Lavrentiy Beria
You'd think that would concern folks....
If only. Here, it's more like: "Show me the man and I'll just make catty implications about what the crime might be, but charge you anyway. Good luck preparing your defenses, and see you at trial!"
'Show me the man behind Trump University and try to pretend with a straight face he's not a crook.'
I'm not that impressed with the misdemeanor case, either, especially the count stacking element. It rests on the claim that paying your lawyer to secure an NDA from somebody isn't a legal service, which seems at least not well established.
But I do agree with Randal that Bragg's indictment makes other indictments more likely. He doesn't necessarily have the best case against Trump, though I wouldn't be shocked if he did. He just had the most gall. But he has lowered the threshold for inciting him, if only psychologically; It's always easier for the second person in a mob to throw a stone at you.
Here's the crazy thing. I don't know the law well enough to opine or predict on this case.
So I don't.
Same. Opinions are wide and varied and often heated making it difficult to judge, though obviously Brett's and Mr Ed's and Bruce Haydn's will always be reliably wrong.
No, that's not what it rests on, Brett.
Care to elaborate?
Did you read the indictment or the statement of facts? Maybe you should try that.
You may find it’s actually helpful to read the primary sources of the things you want to talk about.
https://manhattanda.org/district-attorney-bragg-announces-34-count-felony-indictment-of-former-president-donald-j-trump/
Try it sometime!
When did you change your name from David to Jason?
So you acknowledge that you're either too stupid to understand the information presented to you, or that you're unwilling to educate yourself on the facts in the first place.
Good enough.
"seems pretty slam-dunk"
What makes you say that? At this point, I give it 50-50 that it will be dismissed on a motion. There are lots of legal problems with it.
The only "crime" in your mind that he committed is that he didn't open the border to every worthless third worlder who wanted to come here.
Right. He doesn't give a shit of these darkies are mass murdered in illegal wars or bombings, only that this underclass of landscapers and grocery baggers isn't free to invade our country and mow his lawn.
Funny enough, Trump is the only president in decades to NOT start any new wars.
So assassinating an Iranian general doesn't count?
The Volokh Conspirators thank you for the bigotry in that comment; it means they don’t have to worry about publishing a vile racial slur for a few days during which they are already anxiously focused on ducking comment on Trump’s current and prospective criminal charges, Justice Thomas’ flaming shitstorm of ethical failures, the brutal revelations about Fox News, the racist Republicans’ antics in Tennessee, etc.
Carry on, clingers
If you're gonna insurrect, be prepared to suffer the consequences of insurrection.
If only Strzok, Page, Brennan, Clapper, Biden, Obama, Hillary, Vindman, and the rest of the gang ever faced any consequences
I believe the Wall turned out, in fact, to involve crimes.
Let's see the Bill of Particulars from the Grand Jury that issued the indictment that specifies the crime POTUS Trump was concealing. The relevant consideration is the 'Now the Shoe is on the Other Foot' test, and I don't think POTUS' Obama, Bush and Clinton are going to appreciate the outcome.
Grand juries don't issue bills of particulars: indeed, that's kind of the entire point of a bill of particulars.
Wait...the bill of particulars will not have a specific citation to the original crime POTUS Trump is alleged to have committed? You're the lawyer, you tell me. I just want to know what that actual crime is.
How does the defense attorney find out what the original crime is?
A defendant can request a bill of particulars, but it would be written and provided by the prosecutor rather than the grand jury. The grand jury just says "yup, that looks like the kind of ham sandwich the prosecutor described".
Ok, so why wouldn't POTUS Trumps defense lawyers make that request at the arraignment hearing? Why 'not' ask for that at arraignment - what is the strategy?
Maybe they have asked. I don't know the details; I only wanted to provide the explanation that Noscitur forgot to provide while he was busy being an asshole.
I guess we'll see, but if Bragg is taking the super-cutesy position others around here have articulated that there need not actually be any underlying crime and Trump just need have acted while thinking he was being bad, there's no particular reason to think he'll put anything particularly concrete in the Bill of Particulars.
And as a strategic point, why not provide something fluffy and goad the defense into moving to compel further detail? That drags the case out without impacting speedy trial rights, and this sort of case probably has a good deal more benefit remaining on the docket and casting a cloud than it does actually being resolved.
I mean, did you guys read the statement of facts released by Bragg? He already identified two crimes: tax evasion and campaign finance violations. (One of which one of Trump's co-conspirators was already convicted of!)
Here we go again. Please quote here the actual language from the SoF you feel sufficiently identifies any particular crime at all, much less to the specificity you'd need as an attorney to actually prepare a defense against that crime.
The SoF is merely a PR document that commits Bragg to nothing, and simply grinds out a list of facts he expects the press (and ultimately the jury) to conclude sound odious enough that Trump MUST have thought he was being naughty. It's next to worthless to the defense, as I suspect (hope!) you well understand.
No it didn't. It was remarkably vague and cagey.
Start with -- what campaign law was violated? Federal? State?
And as I have posted here before, the whole scheme as set out in the SOF sounds like a very complicated way for Trump himself to pay the payoff. Which, even if you consider that a campaign contribution, he is entitled to do without limitation under Buckley v. Valeo.
As for tax evasion, all I saw was the Trump paid extra to Cohen, so he could pay taxes on the payoff. IOW, overpay on his taxes. That ain't tax evasion. (And remarkably generous of Trump -- I guess that's SOP in payoff land -- add extra so the other guy can pay his taxes. Gotta admire the fact that even the ultra-sleazy pay attention to the details. )
These people did not seem so confused as you:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/and-so-it-begins-first-charges-drop-against-former-president-donald-trump
I don't know enough to evaluate their opinion, other than to note that yours seems not quite as well postured as theirs even as you come in with maybe too much confidence compared to them.
Once again, you beclown yourself. Did you even read the article you linked to?
Got that, clown? The very article you link to calls the legal theory obscure, and then says that only after further litigation will it be able evaluate the indictment's integrity.
The rest of it goes through a legal analysis and points out various holes that are yet to be filled.
Still unexplained (not that I fault the article) is (a) how Trump himself making campaign expenditures can be illegal given Buckley v. Valeo and (2) how Cohen paid less in taxes.
1) Once again: the Trump Organization, not Trump, made the payment. Buckley does not allow that.
2) Once again, Buckley does not exempt personal expenditures from disclosure.
Paragraph 33 of my copy of the SoF says Trump himself made $315k of the payments out of his own personal bank account. What does your copy say?
Another legal issue is that the statute under which Trump is charged requires an "intent to defraud." In fact the misdemeanor requires that too.
That phrase has been the subject of a lot of litigation in NY. A leading commentary states:
N.Y. Penal Law § 15.00 (McKinney), SUPPLEMENTARY PRACTICE COMMENTARY by William C. Donnino
Reading the SOF and the indictment, I don't see that anywhere it's charged either that Trump was tried to extract property or something of value from someone, or interfere with the machinery of govt. Someone speculated that the "fraud" is on the voters, who would have an incomplete picture of the candidate. That would be a very novel application of the statute.
Just more grist for the mill.
Par. 4 of the SOF states:
"After the election, the Defendant reimbursed Lawyer A for the illegal payment through a series of monthly checks, first from the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust (the “Defendant’s Trust”)—a Trust created under the laws of New York which held the Trump Organization entity assets after the Defendant was elected President—and then from the Defendant’s bank account."
Later pars. state that only the first check was through the Trust. It does also state that the checks were processed as business expenses of the Trump Organization, but were actually paid by the Trust (first check) and then Trump personally (nine checks).
So, to put it mildly, the issue is murky.
From the SOF:
"The Defendant is the beneficial owner of a collection of business entities known by the trade name the Trump Organization. The Trump Organization comprises approximately 500 separate entities that, among other business activities, own and manage hotels, golf courses, commercial real estate, condominium developments, and other properties. The Trump Organization is headquartered at 725 Fifth Avenue in New York County."
Not clear to me what the TO actually is -- an entity, or just a collection of entities that Trump owns. The NYS does list an entity named Trump Organization LLC.
Oh yeah, fuck that Bush guy.
Wow! Ilya Somin has already decided that Trump should be in prison, on some charges for which there hasn't even been any indictment. To say nothing of a trial. So much for the presumption of innocence. This is me pretending to be surprised. But it's no surprise, the American people are so angry with their political opponents, they are beyond ready to start locking them up, and worse. The left is well beyond and the right is quickly catching up. This is the inevitable consequence of centralizing government.
The bit about family separation is cute. That was Obama that put the kids in those cages, did you forget? And the Flores settlement is from 1997 - the Trump admin moved to terminate that so families could be kept together. Trump should be praised for trying to keep those families together, setting aside that most of them weren't families but kids being used as pawns by adults who weren't their parents. And the libs stopped him because they want that policy to stay in place, they should be condemned.
This seems like a pretty silly point. The presumption of innocence is a restriction on when the government can impose punishment: it doesn't restrict people from drawing their own conclusions about guilt before a trial takes place. (How could anyone ever get prosecuted if it did?)
Maybe we should round up people like Ilya and put them in prison.
May I suggest he think VERY, VERY carefully about what HAS happened in this country in the past before he abandons things like the presumption of innocence and the rest. Forget things like ethical principles of law professors and think self-interest here -- the rule of law protects minorities and it's time for him to realize that...
You can take the man out of the Soviet Union but you can't take the Soviet Union out of the man. Beria and Stalin would be proud to know that their traditions live on.
Congratulations, stupidest comment in the thread.
Slightly of topic, but interesting in light of potential Jan. 6 claims against Trump.
"Appeals court ruling puts hundreds of Jan. 6 felony cases in limbo"
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/07/january-6-obstruction-ruling-00091034
WOW -- that is BIG.
And what I have always wondered about is an "equal protection" defense on the basis that no one else has been charged with a similar crime under similar circumstances, e.g. the BLM protesters who torched the DC church.
Just because SCOTUS hasn't ruled on that doesn't mean they can't -- or won't -- and at this point it needs to be raised...
Won't help the people who already pled guilty to avoid that charge, I expect.
Good grief. Tell us how you really feel. Don't sugarcoat it.
”Examples include France, Italy, Israel, and South Korea, among others. No one can seriously argue that these nations have become “banana republics” as a result.”
No, they were banana republics before they punished out-of-power former dictators. And so is the U.S.
“The congressional January 6 Committee has recommended four potential charges related to Trump’s efforts to reverse the outcome of the 2020 election and disrupt Congress’ proceedings in certifying the electoral vote count.”
See point number one above. I rest my case.
"The other likely charges against Trump are far stronger legally, and they relate to genuinely great evil on Trump's part (e.g.—attempting to stay in power despite having lost an election). "
Bullshit. He was preparing to move out of the White House and the Trump's property was being packed for the move. He had every right to contest the election results given the amount of questionable ballots in several counties in swing states. Many experts have shown that the results of some precinct vote totals were statistically impossible. Of course, those that insist it was the "most secure election ever" such at the Professor here, will not look at that evidence.
Many experts have shown that the results of some precinct vote totals were statistically impossible.
No experts have shown that. You are deluded.
Now list all the Trump-appointed judges who rejected those claims.
They rejected them on the basis of technicalities and not the merits.
And my personal favorite is the number of people born in the 1800s -- by definition at least 120 years old and older than any living American -- who voted in the 2020 election. There was one who was too *old* to have fought in the Civil War -- and he voted?!?
Maybe this fraud was statistically irrelevant -- but it still WAS FRAUD!!!!!
That number being zero?
False. All of the conspiracy claims were heard and rejected on the merits. Other challenges, relating to the election procedures, were rejected based on the "technicality" of them being fucking stupid.
Speaking of fucking stupid, there were no such people. When paper voter registrations were digitized, they didn't necessarily have all the information, and so they input a dummy birthdate of 1/1/1900 or the like for those records.
You spend a lot of time trying to fix people's insane paranoid delusions. Obviously these delusions aren't spontaneous, they're being spread around the right-wing mediaverse deliberately.
I'm guessing you've seen, like, Puffy Jacket Pope. Pretty convincing. Much more convincing than, say, Q, and he seems to convince a lot of people.
I feel like we're entering a period where the internet and all media -- except maybe hyperlocal news -- will be completely untrustworthy. Imagine the next Dobbs leak, except that there's every reason to believe it's an extremely convincing ChatGPT 5 imitation. There's video of Roberts confirming its authenticity, but maybe that's AI-generated too.
Have you given any thought to what happens if this conspiracy theory epidemic gets way worse? Maybe it'll just make national politics effectively impossible and that'll turn out to be a good thing. That's me being Mr. Brightside.
I agree.
It's so easy to refute right wing arguments, only to be met with juvenile "I know you are, but what am I??" comebacks, that I feel like an adult who should really be getting back to supervising and stop wasting my time.
There are two problems:
1) They won't accept anything as evidence. Obviously people have been complaining about media bias forever, often justifiably. But saying there's a slant in what they cover and how they cover it is not the same as saying that they're wrong. Trump's evil genius was to realize that if he simply burned down all institutions in the country, there wouldn't be anything left standing but him. So it wasn't enough to claim bias; he had to claim that they were all liars. And his acolytes ate it up. So now they won't believe anything mainstream. Indeed, they won't even believe sources like Fox if those sources deviate from the Dear Leader's mantra. The only thing they will believe are the outlets that make no pretense to be doing journalism, whose express purpose is to tell them what they want to hear.
2) The Gish Gallop. There are an infinite number of deranged claims, and it takes a lot more time to refute them than to invent them.
Those are no problems replacement won't solve.
Until replacement, the solution involves better Americans continuing to impose adult supervision on clingers.
Oy Vey, again with the "Replacement"
Just wondering Jerry, who "Replaced" you at Penn State, you know, after you had to leave for "Personal" reasons (I guess you could call facing charges of involuntary deviate sexual intercourse, seven counts of indecent assault, one count of criminal intent to commit indecent assault, nine counts of unlawful contact with minors, 10 counts of corruption of minors and 10 counts of endangering the welfare of children. )
Amazing thing is you were out on bail during the entire trial, Jeez,
what kind of "Monitoring Device" did they have you wear?
Frank
I actually looked into that. As I understand it, some elections offices, when transferring to the computer system the registration of somebody who didn't know their birth date, entered an implausible value to mark that it was actually unknown, because the software wouldn't allow the field to be left blank.
It's not an unknown practice in data entry, though it's hardly ideal.
"... though it’s hardly ideal."
That's an understatement. The first step to having clean elections is to clean up the voter rolls (as required by federal law) in every jurisdiction and keep them clean on a regular basis.
And, in fact, the 'motor voter' act only passed because of a deal where it included a mandate that voter rolls be cleaned up. That part was never enforced.
That's part of the reason compromise legislation has become impossible: At this point everybody knows that the compromise won't hold, only the side in power in the Executive branch will get their side of the deal upheld.
You're at the wrong scale - voter rolls are state-by-state. And GOP states have tried to do a scrub of voter rolls over and over, and found very little at issue.
Just another conspiracy to explain why no one likes the new reactionary GOP.
"You’re at the wrong scale – voter rolls are state-by-state."
So is voter registration, in case you somehow failed to notice. So, how exactly did that law end up mandating registration at the DMV? Adding and subtracting people from the voter rolls are just two sides of the same coin, you can't assert that one is a federal matter, and then deny that the other is.
You were not complaining at the registration point, you above thought that was fine – your complaint was that voter rolls were never cleaned up.
This is incorrect, for the reasons I said above.
Now you have a new thesis. At odds with your old one. And don't attempt to paper over your inconsistency by saying that, cleaning up the rolls and getting registered are not two sides of the same coin.
They are not except simplistically. We don't need a federal scrub because every state-specific scrub has turned out to be useless partisan theatre.
This is pretty funny: "Regular readers know that I'm no MAGA type myself, either."
I don’t think any President has, like Trump did, order an investigation of the opponent he defeated.
When did that happen?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/justice-dept-winds-down-clinton-related-inquiry-once-championed-by-trump-it-found-nothing-of-consequence/2020/01/09/ca83932e-32f9-11ea-a053-dc6d944ba776_story.html
No point in giving further links. Look it up yourself.
I'd say there's no point in anyone looking up any further links since your first one didn't even support your claim. You said he "ordered" it.
Not a serious response. You don’t follow the link.
End of conversation.
LOL -- did you really think you could play that game by providing a paywalled link?
I read it. Neither the word nor the concept of Trump ordering the investigation is in it.
Quote the language that shows me wrong, or take the L.
There are easily free links you can pursue.
Now go back to your jerking off while I lead a serious life.
"You're not a serious person if you don't research and find the proof of all my claims!"
Sincerely,
captcrisis
As I like to say, quotation marks are the best disinfectant.
I clearly told you I read the article behind your link, despite your best efforts. I then clearly invited you to quote the exact text from that article you felt supported your summary.
You offered nothing but invective and some kind of comical rendition of the classic grade-school debate ender, "I'm going HOME."
I suspect that, as is often the case, reviewing the actual words on the page left you with a rather different sense about the situation than you had mistakenly convinced yourself. While I have no illusion you're going to admit that here, maybe at least it'll keep you from continuing to spout this particular piece of disinformation in the future.
Kool Aid especially strong tonight?
You're better than this.
I also don't think any president has, like Trump did, ordered investigations of the people who investigated him. As well as ordering investigations of the people investigating his opponents for the sin of not finding anything.
Did he commission a fake intelligence dossier or something?
No he didn’t. That was another Republican.
Hillary's campaign purchased their servives but was scrupulous enough not to publicize their findings.
"No he didn’t. That was another Republican."
LOL!
Yeah, I heard that the Democrats attempted to leverage Republicans previously using that firm's services into a claim that Republicans had actually commissioned the dossier. Kind of lame.
"Hillary’s campaign purchased their services but was scrupulous enough not to publicize their findings."
Part of their service was doing the publicizing themselves, they keep a stable of tame 'journalists' who they flack the stuff to. That way it's supposed to end up looking like the results of spontaneous journalistic investigations, not a press release from the campaign.
But the dossier stank so badly they couldn't get anybody to cover it, until Comey briefed Trump on it, and that briefing was leaked, specifically in order to give the journalists a 'hook' to have an excuse for covering it.
"Mr. Comey said he only briefed Mr. Trump on the salacious part of the allegations because he understood reporters had that information and it could become public soon, if journalists had a “news hook.”
When CNN ultimately reported about the story, the outlet actually used Mr. Comey’s briefing as the news hook to justify running the item."
There's substantial reason to think Comey himself was the source of that leak... So, he'd apparently went out of his way to create that "hook" so the dossier could be reported.
Nothing in that article is evidence, let alone substantial evidence, of any such thing.
I suggest to everybody that they follow the links, rather than taking David’s word for that.
"Comey, who was fired by Trump in May, was open about at least one leak in testimony last Thursday.
He admitted to using an ex-U.S. attorney, later identified as Columbia University Prof. Daniel Richman, to leak to The Times the contents of alleged memos Comey wrote about his one-on-one interactions with Trump. He was not asked if he had ever used Richman on other occasions; however, Richman is mentioned in 151 results in a New York Times search dating back to 1993, with 11 of those articles also featuring Comey and six of them being authored by Michael S. Schmidt – who later wrote the “Comey memos” story which Comey told Congress he directed Richman to leak.
Dating back to at least Jan. 10, The Times has published confidential information related to Trump and the FBI, mostly sourced anonymously from senior officials in the FBI and DOJ:
Jan. 6 – Comey, in written testimony, said he briefed then-President-elect Trump while the two men were alone in Trump Tower on this date. The briefing dealt with the salacious and unverified dossier alleging that Russia had compromising information about Trump. According to Comey’s account, both he and ex-Director of National Intelligence James Clapper decided Comey should be the only one to brief Trump. One of the reasons for this arrangement, Comey wrote, was because he was staying on as FBI director – though no official announcement had been made about this and subsequent reports indicate Trump didn’t ask Comey about remaining in his capacity until this meeting took place.
Jan. 10 – The Times reports on the Comey/Trump dossier meeting, citing “2 officials with knowledge of the briefing.” More inside-the-FBI information also exists in the article, including when the FBI first became aware of the dossier and the troubles agents had confirming the document’s details.
Jan. 24 – Though Trump hadn’t made an official announcement, The Times reports Comey would be staying on as FBI director. Comey had reportedly told a large group about the news, in this case special agents in charge from across the nation. Trump’s request that Comey remain on allegedly occurred during the Jan. 6 Trump Tower meeting. Schmidt wrote the story."
You: "he’d apparently went out of his way to create that “hook” so the dossier could be reported."
This - what you excerpted to show DMN was wrong - is string and corkboard connections. "Comey admitted single leak, but were there others?" Just asking questions!
Get outta here.
I know you're into turning such weak suppositions into proof for your worldview; most folks realize this does not get anywhere near supporting your thesis, much less proving it.
Yes, that's what I excerpted to show that DMN was wrong about NOTHING at the link being evidence.
Conclusive evidence? Hardly. Suggestive evidence? Certainly: A man who has admitted in Congressional testimony to leaking, who was one of the very few people in a position to be the source for a long line of leaks, was perfectly positioned to provide the leak that gave the press an excuse to report on something he himself had remarked they needed an excuse to report on.
Proof? No. Circumstantial evidence? Sure was.
You are so full of bullshit. Rubio’s donor employed the firm. They did not commission Steele or the fake dossier.
At some point, facts have to matter
I am not an attorney, much less an attorney who practices criminal law in the state of NY, so my opinion on the strength or weakness of Bragg’s case is not exactly "informed".
But I’ve read a number of takes on the indictment, and my takeaway is that the more the commenter can be described as “an attorney who practices criminal law in the state of NY” the more likely they are to say that the case is strong.
Take that for what it’s worth.
Those familiar with a kangaroo court will typically know which way it leans in any particular case.
Not a serious (or even adult) response.
All the lawyers Professor Somin cited are learned and respected, but surely the relevant expertise would come from people who have practiced criminal law in New York?
I think the strength of AG Bragg’s case is the falsified business records. This seems to be an area of weakness for Trump. Loss in civil court shows this weakness. So, may be more like Capone’s case than Somin may think.
Also, Trump isn't going to jail on this case, it will just be another brick in wall.
If Trump DID go to jail for this bullbleep, God help us all.
It would be "Burn, Baby Burn" -- and very ugly.
I pray that there is intelligent life in the NY court system....
Meh. Much easier to just boycott New York. Refuse to deliver food & fuel to the city. See how long it lasts.
Or cut off the “pork”
. Red states will cave in quickly.
That seems increasingly likely (educated, productive, modern states and communities shutting off subsidies that prop up uneducated, bigoted, parasitic states communities).
Look at how rural electrification turned out. It was a product of good intentions, but mostly it connected a bunch of delusional and bigoted hayseeds online and the can't-keep-up backwaters are still a desolate stain and drain on our society.
when you say "Hayseeds" it the same as saying "Niggers" so thanks for showing us you're a Race-ist in addition to an American convicted serial child molester and a retired college football coach.
Hayseed redneck bumpkin rubes aren't a race, silly!
If you can say "elite" I can say "yokel."
Hopefully we can have proper castes in the near future. Clodhoppers don't get to go to school. Work that soil for my supper, little bucktooth children!
OK, it's the Internets, so I can say my Dicks 24" long (or was it 2.4" always screw up those decimal points)
But I'd bet I spend more on my Pool/Yard upkeep in a monty than you make in a year (or if I don't, than you spend for your Pool/Yard)
See, I'm Rich, Really Rich (HT "45") and you're some Apparatchik in some mid management bullshit job at the bullshit Bureau of Ball Scratching, pissed that people like me, fuck women that you could never get,(no offense!)
"Proper Castes in the Near Future"??
are you Stevie Wonder??
We have them now, what group comprises most of the "Homeless"? "State Prisoners"? "Federal Prisoners"? "Murdered in Chicago/Los Angeles/Detroit/St. Louis/Atlanta (I'd type more but got the Carpal Tunnel)
Oh yeah,
"Aborted Feti"
they ain't Asians
Frank
Wow, I sure seem to have touched a testicle nerve. You can't be two races, so do you choose Jewish or white? If you choose Jewish, you've gotta give up your sympathies for the white man downtrodden by the jackboot. All races must be disdained equally other than your own.
Progressives coming out that slavery really is not that bad.
Color me amazed.
Slavery! No, you've just finally convinced us that "redistributing our wealth" to you fuckers has been a terrible idea all along. All it's done is make you think you can get away, economically, with living in the middle of nowhere with nothing productive to do. You're not slaves. So get your shit together and move to a city if you're so miserable. But we're cutting off your allowance.
NYC has money lots of it. They could buy fuel and food from Canada, South and Central America.
Getting it there might be an issue.
C'mon (man!) gas and food just magically show up at the Gas Station/Grocery Store, same with Amazon Packages (I never see the Elves who leave them)
Really? You think that other countries don't have ships and planes?
Didn’t you make the same hotheaded predictions of doom if Trump were indicted?
All-talk, blustering, pusillanimous right-wingers are among my favorite culture war casualties -- and, apparently, a core element of a white, male, bigot-hugging, movement conservative blog.
Words of wisdom from American convicted serial child molester and a retired college football coach, Jerry Sandusky.
I hope to God that President Trump sues you and Reason for defamation. He is the victim, not the perpetrator. Please draft for us your proposed indictment citing the factual basis and identifying each statutory provision he has violated. Maybe this will lead to you finally being fired from Eugene's blog. You ruin this place.
I too hope Trump files such a suit, as long as he does so in a jurisdiction with a strong anti-SLAPP law. But Trump's lawyers have enough trouble with ethics investigations and sanctions (not to mention criminal prosecutions in some cases), so that's really not likely to happen.
I'm not so sure that Trump filing some kind of countersuit over this affair is that far fetched. But against Prof Somin and the VC and Reason for "defamation"? Not very likely.
IOW: FRAUD!!!
You are an awful lawyer.
You think that France, Italy, Israel and South Korea are ROLE MODELS for government continuity, non-corruption and stability?????? Have you been hacked????? These 4 countries are competing for most unstable governments in world history!!!!
A wise boxer probes with a jab before delivering the cross.
You act like it's some kind of concerted conspiracy to "get" Trump. Obviously it's not.
And Trump has already been tried in the Senate and he wasn’t convicted. So wouldn’t that be double jeopardy?
How are those likely to be strong? It’s clear that Trump genuinely believed he won the election. So asking people to “find the votes” meant find that actual votes, not make up votes.
That’s unlikely to go anywhere for political reasons. Because if they charge Trump, then they know Biden will be charged under the next Republican administration. And unlike Biden, Trump at least theoretically could have declassified all those documents.
"Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States; but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law."
Your other two points are also wrong.
Other two points are wrong? You say this without any evidence, so I am unconvinced.
Being thoroughly discredited counts as evidence towards your credibility.
Where was I "thoroughly discredited"? Someone answered one question I asked. No one addressed any other issue.
Ilya Somin is a Russian Jew who spends most of his time arguing that Americans are stupid. Especially those who voted for Trump. He really wants to put Trump in jail, but all the charges so far have turned out to be bogus.
Oh hay another antisemite found their way to the VC. And he's a Trump supporter!!
Crazy how that keeps happening.
The Volokh Conspirators carefully cultivate a following of multifaceted bigots, antisocial culture war casualties, and un-American misfits.
What's crazy is that these law professors apparently genuinely believed the content of this blog would make right-wing positions more palatable among a broader (beyond the FreeRepublic-Instapundit-Red State-Stormfront-Gateway Pundit-Newsweek-Breitbart-Federalist Society-Heritage context) audience.
A major College Foo-bawl coach committing rape? Must have missed that one,
Words of wisdom from American convicted serial child molester and a retired college football coach, Jerry Sandusky.
Yes, but his antisemitism is balanced out by the soundness and thoroughness of his argument.
I hate Russian Jews!
Not really, that's a reference to that line in "The Blues Brothers" about Illinois Nazis.
And as a Jew, I can say President Trump was the least Anti-Semitic POTUS since Richard Milhouse saved Israel in 1973 (has any POTUS since saved Israel?) it was "Operation Nickle Grass"
Over 32 days, the United States Air Force (USAF) Military Airlift Command (MAC) shipped 22,325 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition and supplies in C-141 Starlifter and C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft between 14 October and 14 November 1973.[1][2]: 88 The U.S. support helped ensure that the State of Israel survived a coordinated and surprise attack from the Soviet-backed Arab Republic of Egypt and Syrian Arab Republic.[1]
OK, maybe Milhouse made a few rude remarks about my People (only Jews should talk bad about other Jews!)
but when it came down to Nut Cutting, Milhouse came through,
Frank
That's right. Nixon and Trump were very pro-Israel. And yet they are called anti-semitic anyway.
Risking to be called anti-semitic, I'd point out that being pro-Israel is no proof of not being anti-semitic. "I have quite a few Jewish friends", is the standard talk of many anti-Semites. (Analogues: "I don't have anything against those sand humpers in Iraq!") Nixon definitely was an anti-Semite. Comrade Chan Jianguo is dog-whistling in so many directions ...
The "ultimate" argument is that Israelis criticizing the most rightwing government ever are "consumed by Jewish self-hatred". How convenient ...
Somin repeatedly accuses Trump of being "evil". Such a ludicrous assertion is, of course, neither scholarly nor serious, but fairly typical of the debased "academics" of today who are fundamentally unserious individuals, worthy only of contempt and derision. Is it any wonder today's law students act like angry toddlers when confronted by an opinion not their own?
What Bragg has managed to accomplish is to permanently destroy the moral authority of the United States. If the leading opposition candidate to the current President of another country were arrested on such a flimsy pretext, it would be justly and universally condemned in this country. And the United States would certainly refuse to extradite an individual so charged.
The next time Putin or some other tinhorn throws an opposition leader in prison, we will hardly be in a position to say a damn word about it.
It's not even that -- the untold thing about the Trump arrest was the extent to which the foreign media covered it, particularly the Asian media.
240 years of credibility down the toilet.
That toilet got flushed in November 2016.
Now we're doing the hard work of building it back. Indicting President Illegal Trade War was probably the best thing we could do for our credibility with the Chinese.
The Chinese government is a totalitarian dictatorship and a strategic enemy. What sort of idiot wants to "rebuild our credibility" with them by jailing political enemies of the current administration?
Yes, but they're a credible totalitarian dictatorship and strategic enemy.
Credibility is infinitely more important among enemies than among friends. Just ask John Nash.
Sure, but the sort of credibility that's important with enemies is different from the sort that's important with friends. You don't want enemies liking you, or approving of what you do, you want them afraid to cross you.
That, of course, is the sort of credibility, this administration has been burning up at a record pace.
I agree. A country that gives into demagoguery and bullying would be perceived as weak, whereas a nation that shows itself immune to such evil influences will be seen as strong.
I’ve seen a lot of right-wingers, here and elsewhere, argue that even if Trump is fully guilty, the country should wuss out on holding him accountable, because it’s not worth the civil strife. That doesn’t instill fear in our enemies. It makes us appear to be on the brink of collapse such that we’re unable to enforce our own laws. That’s like saying it’s not worth standing up to the bully, just keep your head down and give him what he wants. It’s weakness.
We haven't even had the trial yet. You guys are all going nuts about an indictment. The strength of our system comes from the rights we afford the accused: innocent until proven guilty, a speedy trial, and a jury of peers. Let's show the world that our process works and is resistant to politics, corruption, and demagogues.
"A country that gives into demagoguery and bullying would be perceived as weak, whereas a nation that shows itself immune to such evil influences will be seen as strong."
China doesn't just 'give in' to those faults, it's based on those faults. And they hardly think they're weak. I agree we don't hurt ourselves in China's eyes by having the party controlling the executive branch prosecuting their likely opponent in next year's elections, or the revelations of social media being in bed with government on censorship. We wouldn't hurt ourselves in China's eyes by running slave labor camps, either. They're not going to think less of us if we emulate their own faults!
But I don't think that's the sort of respect we should want.
Where we DO relevantly hurt ourselves is by the perception that our armed forces are more focused on DIE than making foes die. By emptying the strategic petroleum reserve in peace time to influence elections. By actions that make us look fundamentally unserious as an adversary.
Where have you been the last 240 years? Slavery? The whole world was full of praise! Philippines? The whole world adored a finally strong civilizing empire! Interventions in Central and South America? Adoramos los gringos! Civil Rights? Righto, Bull Connor was the hero around the world! Vietnam? The whole world loved the US intervening for their democratic dictators in South Vietnam (after all, when they got too uppity, the US would lend a hand in their demise, Diem anyone?). Iraq? W saved us from Saddam's weapons of mass destruction!
Do I need to go on?
Don’t get me wrong: The US twice saved the Europeans’ arses, and they took a lot of much deserved credit. The US bore the brunt of the protection of Western Europe against the Soviet Union. Some Europeans tend to forget too readily. As so many other countries, there is a lot to love about the US, and a lot to hate about it — fortunately, still a lot more of the former. Recently though, you seem to prefer to be the Ugly American, and Comrade Chan Jintao is hir grotesque face.
Somin is taking cues from Stalin and Beria. You can take a man out of the Soviet Union, but you can't take the Soviet Union out of the man.
Lets get racist, eh you asshole?
Explain how referencing Stalin and Beria is racist.
You're very close. Keep reading - it's the very next sentence!
Saying someone is from the Soviet Union is racist? Wow, that is a stretch.
Prof. Somin left the USSR at age 5. Saying being born in the Soviet Union is in any way part of in his thinking, and comparing him to Stalin and Beria, is racist as fuck, dude.
I don't need to insult you. Your comments do well enough on their own.
You forgot the special rules for SarcastrO:
1. SarcastrO is never wrong
2. If SarcastrO is wrong see rule #1
I explained why it was racist.
You retreat to name-calling, because that's all you got.
C'mon Man(!) he was born in Hawaii just like Barry Hussein
No, it is not racist to point out someone's origin, and how it relates to his views today.
Trump is a sociopath who literally wants to destroy the country for his own self-aggrandizement. If that's not evil, then evil doesn't exist.
Was this comment meant to be ironic when juxtaposed with your previous sentence?
Trump was unpresidential and his tweets were wrong. But he is not the monster his enemies make him out to be. Trump's enemies are showing themselves to be far worse monsters. They will destroy this country in order to preserve their control.
Trump's not a monster per se. But, he is a man-baby who can't stand to lose and thus has to always get his way. As a result, some of his actions have been a monstrous threat to democracy.
Like creating a hoax that FJB is a puippet for some foreign power?
Commissioning a fake dossier to lend credence to the hoax?
The narrative pushed by Clinton (she didn't commission the original dossier) that Trump was colluding with the Russians was standard sleazeball politics. It comes nowhere close to a sitting President conditioning foreign aid on announcing a false investigation into Biden nor trying to steal an election after you lost it.
Fusion GPS was doing oppo research on Trump for Paul Singer, a major GOP donor. After Trump won the nomination, Singer told them nevermind. So Fusion GPS went around shopping their services to Dems, and the Hillary campaign bit. The Steele dossier per se did not start until after Hillary engaged them.
Hillary did not, of course, "commission a fake dossier," both because it wasn't fake and because she didn't tell them to create a fake dossier. (When I say that it wasn't fake, that's not to say that all the information in it was accurate. But it wasn't intended to be. It was intended to be a compilation of info, gossip, rumors, etc., to be looked into further — not a polished final product to be used as is.)
The narrative that Trump was colluding with Russians was not "sleazeball" at all, if for no other reason than that there was substantial circumstantial evidence for it. (It is not a "hoax," no matter how many times MAGA people use that term.)
Hello/Guten Tag Mr./Herrn David Neverpotent
Vee Haff Veed-eeo of Nekk-id Troomp!
Bitte Melden Sie Sich um, I mean um,
Bitte respond if you haff interrest?
Frank
"Hillary did not, of course, “commission a fake dossier,” both because it wasn’t fake"
...so we can just discount every word you write. Thanks for letting us know.
The person who gave Steele the info said he made the whole thing up.
Try and keep up.
The Steel Dossier rumors all came from one dude?
Mostly. And then when the FBI went to interview him, he said it was all a steaming heap. And they reported to the FISA court that he seemed credible, but NOT that he'd credibly said the basis for their investigation was a steaming heap.
"It comes nowhere close to a sitting President conditioning foreign aid on announcing a false investigation into Biden nor trying to steal an election after you lost it."
How about a sitting VP bragging that he threatened to withhold aid from a country unless they fired a prosecutor who was investigating a company that was giving his son a very healthy salary?
The prosecutor was fired on the recommendation of Obama and Europe, because he wasn’t prosecuting, you dork.
He certainly tried that, yes.
I absolutely think Trump is a monster. I think he has zero conscience, zero loyalty to anyone or anything, and cares about nothing but himself. Not even his own family, except to the extent they reflect on him. The only times he forbears from acting like the worst authoritarians on the planet is when he thinks the blowback will be greater than the reward. Otherwise he will say or do anything to get what he wants.
Wow, so what do you think about Senescent Joe?
Don't know who that is.
Look, I'll agree that, like most upper level business leaders, and almost all politicians, he has some sociopathic tendencies. JUST tendencies. But you're exagerating enormously how bad he is, and not by accident.
Nietzsche famously said, "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster."
I'd rephrase it to fit modern politics: "He who wishes to act monstrously declares those he'd fight to be monsters."
You think the end justifies the means, and if you want to use bad means to fight the enemy, so you must decide they're worse than the means you'll employ. And having employed those evil means, you can't go back and reassess that judgement, all you can do is double down and resort to worse.
Eventually your foe becomes the new Hitler, an existential threat to democracy. Because, if he isn't, given what you've been up to, you are.
With every norm and tradition Democrats break going after Trump, he MUST become more monstrous in their eyes, or else they're the monsters.
Yadda yadda yadda 'don't hold monsters accountable.'
His evil certainly comes in the mode of banality and mediocrity, but evil it is.
Yes, Bill Clinton's Evil was banal and mediocre, what about Trumps?
Aw edgebot’s repeating words it hears in a different order now, isn’t it adorable?
Quit whining, clinger.
it's "Klinger" didn't they grade for spelling at whatever Jerk-Water Law School you're too embarrassed to say you went to?? Of course, if I was Gerald Arthur Sandusky (born January 26, 1944) is an American convicted serial child molester and a retired college football coach, I'd pretend to be some Pompous A-hole too (Reality Check: Nobody thinks "Arthur L. Kirkland" was cool! (OK, the "You're out of order! bit was pretty good)
Can't remember the character, but I liked the Lawyer who pinch hit for Kirkland at the Transvestite's sentencing hearing, how he just showed up arrogantly, had nothing to add, and watched his client get sentenced to 3 years in Attica (hard time for just being a Tranny)
Ilya’s analysis is incomplete, and for a law professor, annoyingly so. If we could leave politics aside for a moment — I know, I know! — why don’t we look at the legal basis, i.e. New York’s penal code section 175.10: “Falsifying business records in the first degree
“A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the first degree when he commits the crime of falsifying business records in the second degree, and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.
“Falsifying business records in the first degree is a class E felony.”
What most people overlook is that there ARE precedents for the other crime intended or committed being the violation of election laws. Seven Watt and Norm Eisen provide a survey of those cases in New York State (https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/survey-of-criminal-prosecutions-for-covert-payments-to-benefit-political-campaigns-just-security.pdf ). The question then arises why should, for example, Rockland bus tycoon Richard Brega get a one year-sentence for a felony that Comrade Chan Jianguo walks scot-free for?
I think an honest appraisal of any argument demands to look at the strongest case against. In this case it seems to be Eisen’s interpretation, and all arguments by Hasen, Milhiser or Craig say little in comparison. That is what I mean when I say I am disappointed in Ilya’s presentation and it's being incomplete.
I also wonder what the correct reasons for applying prosecutorial discretion are, and I am not at all sure that there are not some political considerations intermingled. But the reasons proffered AGAINST this particular prosecution all seem to have a political bend to them: What’s this peanut compared to insurrection? You should be careful not to indicate former president! Conversely, ardent partisans for any conviction seem to say: Bragg, don’t get in the way of getting Lord Voldemort, you are weakening the other cases!
Are these valid arguments against the prosecutorial discretion Alvin Bragg exercised? I think not.
Did you notice that almost all of those cases were about actual campaign funds, rather than just a DA asserting that money spent relating to a candidate must have been campaign funds, and the other two cases involved guilty pleas rather than trials?
I am aware that Michael Cohen was convicted for a violation of campaign finance law.
I am aware that Comrade Chan Jianguo's lawyer Joe Tacopina practically conceded that the Defendant committed the misdemeanors alleged by the DA. Unless there was an impostor, I did see and hear lawyer Joe Tacopina say as much on the telly.
I am also aware, that in the Statement of Facts the DA alleges, and the Grand Jury accepted that
"19. The Defendant directed Lawyer A to delay making a payment to Woman 2 as long as possible. He instructed Lawyer A that if they could delay the payment until after the election, they could avoid paying altogether, because at that point it would not matter if the story became public. As reflected in emails and text messages between and among Lawyer A, Lawyer
B, and the AMI Editor-in-Chief, Lawyer A attempted to delay making payment as long as possible."
(https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000187-4dd5-dfdf-af9f-4dfda6e80000, p.6)
The jury will decide if that proves beyond reasonable doubt that 45's deeds constituted just misdemeanors or already class E felonies.
So, no, you didn't realize you posted something that was full of shit. Thanks for clarifying, and seek mental help.
To elaborate: One of those two guilty pleas implies that impersonation by random users on social media counts as a "business record" for the purposes of this law. That's a terrible reading both for giving notice to citizens and for plain meaning interpretation.
The other guilty plea relies on a legal theory that broadly undermines the theory in this case.
So even if you count those as precedent, which they formally are not, at most they show how this law is interpreted in arbitrary and capricious ways.
Ok, so you have "disproven" two cases out of seventeen. From whence it follows that the other fifteen must of necessity be wrong? You forgot to bolster your case by pointing out that some cases while indicted din't even lead to a conviction. Does this prove the others wrong?
To me, ONE case is sufficient to show that the claim that there are no precedents of violation of campaign finance law elevating the misdemeanor to a felony.
I am fully aware of how that happened. Cohen's admission MIGHT be a lie, but it could as well be true. Trump's defense will have ample opportunity to create reasonable doubts in at least one juror. It will be a challenge, though, because there is MORE evidence than just Cohen's plea deal. If that aligns with Cohen's testimony — which it seems to do — his testimony will carry weight.
The other fifteen cases were about actual campaign funds, as I already said. That makes them fundamentally different from the theory in this case, and if you and/or Just Security did not notice that, you and them should probably stick to things you can understand.
The legal theory is the SAME. It has not been established as fact beyond reasonable doubt — yet. Surprise, surprise, we also didn't have the trial proper, and hence not even the jury to judge.
You may have noticed that my thesis was that there is precedent for the presentation of campaign finance violation as an underlying crime which justifies the application of NY PC § 175.10. The Grand Jury accepted the campaign violation but obviously, the jury — not having been established yet — is still out.
To be CRYSTAL clear about it: as with anyone indicted, not having been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt yet — which was NOT my contention — the Defendant still IS innocent.
I have little doubt Trump is technically guilty. But Ilya's point was would anyone else who made hush money payments to cover up sex during a campaign be charged? I doubt it.
Your question is slanted: the issue is not that Comrade Chiang Jingao made hush payments, the issue is that he declared them as business expenditures. If proven beyond reasonable doubt, for someone who declared himself billionaire several times over a pretty stupid, stingy — and yes, criminal — thing to do.
Also, in 2011 John Edwards WAS indeed CHARGED of six counts of felony for hush payments not declared as (and exceeding limits on) campaign contributions in 2008. He was absolved of one count. On the remaining five counts, the jury was hopelessly hung. Giving the grim outlook for success, no new trial was set.
Btw, I couldn't find any corroboration that the fact that Mrs. Edwards was dying of cancer, had any particular effect on the jury absolving Edwards on one count while being hung on the other five. As so much in the current discussion, that seems to be a myth.
Falsifying business records is a misdemeanor. No way is the DA pursing a misdemeanor over sex.
Perhaps the DOJ learned it's lesson about covering up sex in the Edwards case, for they aren't charging Trump with campaign finance violations. Yet, Bragg has chosen to bootstrap to federal campaign finance violations in order to charge Trump with a NY state felony. That appears to me to be an attempt to go after a political opponent even if Trump is technically guilty.
I am aware that Michael Cohen was convicted for a violation of campaign finance law.
Then you aren’t very aware of how that happened. Michael Cohen pled guilty to that charge as part of a plea deal. He had several robust legal defenses available to him, but he didn’t use them. In fact, he didn't care about that charge, because the campaign finance accusation was peanuts compared to the 30+ years he was facing for tax fraud involving taxi medallions. So he cut a deal to save his skin, and the prosecutors agreed because they knew it would be a future weapon they could use against Trump.
What about the way the Clinton campaign paid for the Steele Dossier. How was that recorded. We are seeing that laws are only being enforced against enemies of the elites.
That's a valid point: She paid to have a smear of Trump constructed and flacked to the media, and yes, it was recorded as "legal services".
"Sauce for the goose Mr. Saavik."
They got the DNC to do it, as I recall. Nothing like what Trump did here.
Bigots love to quote Star Trek, even though they clearly don't understand it at all.
Klingon Proverb
"Revenge is a dish best served cold"
be ready for some effin Cold Revenge in January 2025 when "45" becomes "47" ("Impeach 47!" just doesn't have the same impact)
Unfortunately, I think the Dems have perfected their multi-tier approach to vote maximization: (1) illegally evade state laws to demolish ballot integrity procedures, (2) embed personnel in boards of election to control receipt and counting of ballots, (3) deploy thousands of partisan staff to go door-to-door to seed and harvest ballots from low motivation voters. Dems will generate millions of extra votes nationwide and thousands of extra votes in closely contested districts.
Going forward, I think we will see record vote totals for Dem presidential nominees from this day forward. Once they gain control of a state government, they will change laws and procedures to make electoral defeat impossible.
Those of us stupid enough or stubborn enough to oppose them will find ourselves virtually confined to ephemeral gulags. Our digital profiles will be used to limit our abilities to get professional licenses, keep bank accounts, qualify for credit, or travel. We will own nothing and will not be happy.
We'll still have our J-hovah and Galils (They'll be outlawed but we'll still have them)
I will just stick with my wits for now. At some point in the near future, expressing contrary opinions may be judged as more dangerous than murder.
Made me remember this little blurb from the 80s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaSJGmJzTn4
Credit fraud is worse than murder. I love it.
And yet weirdly, Dems didn't bother to do this to win senate or house races.
The Clinton CAMPAIGN and the DNC, without admitting guilt, settled for a $113,000 fine by the Federal Election Commission. To be more precise: the Clinton campaign accepted a $8,000 fine, the DNC $115,000. What the basis for such disparate fines were, I do not know. The fine was for violating the campaign finance rules in declaring the correct purpose of the expenditures. Neither the law firm who paid nor Fusion GPS who received $1,02 mill for their services were prosecuted for wrong doing. (Of these monies, US $168,000 were paid to Steele who produced the dossier. I wonder what kind of overheads are paid in campaign finances!) Given the sums involved, I do have considerable doubt that Hillary Clinton was directly involved in the transaction. It is standard procedure to not telling the candidate about campaign shenanigans. Compare that to the alleged personal involvement of Comrade Chan Jianguo in trying to delay the payments to Stormy Daniels after the elections and declare them business expenditures. Apples and oranges …
I'll go with Alan Dershowitz over Somin. Trump's phone call to GA officials did not involve any illegality. No one should be above the law but no one should be below the law. The Dems did far worse conspiring and acting to prevent Trump from carrying out his duties as president with all the Russiagate nonsense
I strongly dislike Trump. But if he gets convicted and jailed for the charges Somin asserts, then it will be proof that the US is no longer governed by laws. Somin might as well be cheering on Stalin and Beria.
We will end up with a country ruled by elites who create a virtual gulag using AI to search the web, social media, and telecommunications for potential opponents to be silenced.
You are literally the first person I've heard appeal to the authority of Alan Dershowitz on this stuff.
FOX keeps trying to make him a thing, but he's too out there to catch on...except for with you.
I strongly dislike Trump.
***doubt*** you've defend everything he's done since 2015.
Could've been worse; he could've cited Turley!
Ad hominem arguments are all you have. Sad!
Jonathan Turley
J.B. and Maurice C. Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law; Director of the Environmental Law Advocacy Center; Executive Director, Project for Older Prisoners
https://www.law.gwu.edu/jonathan-turley
Yeah just another legal hack.
sounds like it.
Alan M. Dershowitz
Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law, Emeritus
https://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/alan-m-dershowitz/
Yeah, just some Fox hack.
Get back to us when you're teaching at Harvard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
But also yes, he is laughable these days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
S_0 in a nutshell, that bit.
If I said it was wrong because Dersh said it, that would be ad hominem.
If I say it's an appeal to authority to say something is correct because Dersh says it, that's not ad hominem.
This has been a simple lesson in fallacies.
“FOX keeps trying to make him a thing, but he’s too out there to catch on…”
This has been a simple reminder in what you wrote a whopping three hours ago.
Pointing out he's a professor emeritus (at Harvard Law School, no less) directly addresses your ad hominem.
My quote there is a point about Dersh and FOX; it is not an ad hominem argument, since it is not going addressing any additional argument.
Why is this so hard for you?
You made a personal criticism about Dershowitz in order to dismiss his argument. That's an ad hominem. Why is it so hard for you to admit that you got caught in a lie?
I didn't dismiss his argument, my parsing-challenged friend. I dismissed Darth Buckeye's appeal to his authority.
Sorry, looks like you shit your pants again.
1. SarcastrO is never wrong
2. If SarcastrO is wrong see rule #1
Darth Buckeye did not appeal to his authority, you nitwit. Do you smell burnt toast?
LOL. I want $5 in liquidated damages for each and every time you and countless others around here have smugly asked me "are YOU a [credentials of the favored talking head du jour], huh???!???"
I'll be able to retire this afternoon.
An argument from authority...is a form of argument in which the opinion of an authority on a topic is used as evidence to support an argument
That fallacy is distinct from calling someone out when they give some utterly incorrect *factual analysis* based on some Dunning Kruger idiocy.
Incorrect factual positions are not arguments as used in that definition.
Hey, look, a straw man! In the scenarios I mentioned, you smugsters questioned my ability to comment at all if I didn't have some magical set of letters/degrees/whatever was needed at the time to distinguish me from whoever was espousing your favored view. Were my factual analyses so "utterly incorrect," you of course could have just said that and explained why rather than hiding behind academic skirts.
Sorry, he was insulting you, not me. I admit to being a bit narcissistic when going down my own threads. I apologize.
But you are right that anyone is free to make comments. I've studied with geniuses. They could analyze problems in seconds that would take me minutes or hours to analyze. But they could be spectacularly wrong. Garbage in; garbage out was one problem. Getting stuck in their own virtual realities was another. They would be at step 10 while I was still at step 2, but they might miss changes in the situation that made their analysis specious.
I had one brilliant accounting professor who described the elegant way that accounting principles deal with factors that can't be measured...they ignore them. A lot of life can't be measured. We need to keep that in mind when we try to answer the difficult questions.
No worries, and well put. I've worked with scores of people like that, in a number of different spheres. Super-credentialed and whip-smart, but can get such tunnel vision at times that it can be really tough to get them off a path that a basic sanity check would show is incorrect, irrelevant, or unhelpful to the big picture. To blindly defer would be a grave disservice to my clients and other stakeholders.
I think your argument is misplaced. I am not saying that Dershowitz's conclusion is absolutely correct and true; I am saying that I prefer Dershowitz's arguments to Somin's.
Dunning-Kruger idiocy? Really? I've prosecuted cases; maybe you have too. I've litigated tax fraud cases for the government; maybe you have too. I know the limits of my competence.
You are just hurling insults and evading the issues.
Says the person who's response to the OP was pointing out that Prof. Somin was born in the USSR and comparing him to Beria.
Good thing you cited Dersh's name; otherwise that'd be plagiarism.
Come on dude, why else mention him?
Somebody tell Ty Webb that this IS Russia
OK, it's been a while,
but I do seem to remember Oprah's Boyfriend, Oh, I mean Attorney General Eric Holder "Refusing to Testify" in response to a sub-penis from Congress.
And I don't seem to remember Barry Hussein O firing the AG or doing anything to stop the violation,
and do seem to remember some member of "45"s staff getting Federal Time for the same conviction,
OK, not saying there's anything behind the scenes going on, I can just look at Holder and Barry Hussein and see why they weren't charged.
OK, supposed to by Shyster's here, any case to be made against Oprah's BF and Barry Hussein??
I have to say, an awful lot of politicians have paid money to former mistresses and whatnot to hush up affairs. How many of them have ever been charged with illegal campaign contributions for that conduct, let alone falsifying business records to conceal illegal campaign contributions? Adultery and so forth, sure. But illegal campaign contributions?
The underlying conduct has happened so often - and by not a few presidential candidates and sitting presidents, either - that if it had violated campaign finance laws, you’d think somebody would have said something.
And I’m no fan of Donald Trump either.
The underlying conduct is not the payoff, Reader.
Seriously? When without a payoff to claim had been fraudulently mis-labeled, there wouldn't even be a misdemeanor?
It's the fraud.
'there would be no fraud if there were no money' is amazingly dumb to say.
So, what you're saying is, you don't understand what "underlying" means?
Who, exactly, was defrauded?
Who looks at Trumps business ledgers?
I have to say, an awful lot of politicians have paid money to former mistresses and whatnot to hush up affairs.
So true. The Congress, for instance, has paid millions of taxpayer dollars over the last 20 years as hush money to settle sexual harassment (and worse) suits against Congress-critters.
You don’t think that John Edwards being prosecuted counts as “somebody saying something”?
Edwards was accused of misappropriating campaign funds, using them as the source of the payoff. But although it’s possible the prosecution could spring a surprise, so far there’s been no allegation that campaign funds were used, only that paying Stormy Daniels was a campaign expense but wasn’t documented as such, therefore the business records were falsified.
As I understand it this case is somewhat the opposite of Edwards’. Trump is accused of making a campaign expense but not declaring it as such.
Indeed, if paying mistresses hush money really is a campaign expense, perhaps Senator Edwards was entirely right to have used campaign funds for the purpose.
No; Edwards was not accused of misappropriating campaign funds. The very issue in the case was whether the money was spent to influence the campaign, in which case Edwards had illegally accepted the contributions.
Edwards walked
it was Edwards donors, not Edwards himself, who paid on behalf of his baby mama millions in rent and luxury travel and luxury lifestyle to keep her quiet about the baby. The same people funding his campaign paid to keep her out of the limelight during the campaign.
Trump himself paid Daniel’s After the election with Trumps own money
And I repeat, Edwards walked
This argument would be more convincing if Ilya laid off the virtue signalling and stuck to the case at hand.
It's not new the people hate Trump and want to see him suffer. It is (relatively new) that law professors revel in joining the mob rather than providing a cold dispassionate review of the law.