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Florida Libel Law Reform Bills, Post 1: The Challenge to New York Times v. Sullivan
I thought I'd blog this week about the Florida libel law reform bills, the House version (which was favorably reported out of the Civil Justice Subcommittee to the Judiciary Committee) and the Senate version (which passed by an 8-3 vote in the Judiciary Committee and is now in the Rules Committee). There are many different parts to them, so I thought I'd take them one at a time. I also thought I'd start with the most ambitious changes.
Under current First Amendment law, articulated in New York Times v. Sullivan (1964) and follow-up cases, public officials or public figures suing over libels on matters of public concern must show "actual malice." But "actual malice" isn't actually malice; rather, it's a legal term of art that, in this context, means publishing with the knowledge that the statement was false or likely false. (Publishing with knowledge that the statement is likely false is often labeled "reckless disregard" in this context.) This is a subjective test, focused on what the speaker actually believed, rather than on what a reasonable person would have believed.
The New York Times standard has recently been quite controversial. Justice White (generally viewed as one of the Court's centrists) long led the charge against it; though he joined the New York Times decision at the outset, he "came to have increasing doubts about the soundness of the Court's approach and about some of the assumptions underlying it." He didn't persuade a majority back in his day, but in recent years Justices Thomas and Gorsuch have echoed Justice White's arguments. And while the issue has mostly broken down along conservative-liberal lines, that isn't entirely so (as Justice White's example also helps show): Early in her career then-Professor Kagan had expressed skepticism about the New York Times rule as well, at least in some measure; likewise, see, e.g., Prof. David McGowan's A Bipartisan Case Against New York Times v. Sullivan.
In any event, some critics of the "actual malice" requirement think that it's possible that there will be five votes on the Court to shift to, for instance, a negligence test, where a plaintiff could recover based on a jury finding that the defendant had acted unreasonably in investigating the facts, even if the defendant sincerely believed its statement was true. Section 6 of each of the Florida bills seems aimed at bringing the matter to the Court. In relevant part, it provides that a plaintiff (public official, public figure, or private figure) can prevail if
(a) The defamatory allegation is fabricated by the defendant, is the product of his or her imagination, or is based wholly on an unverified anonymous report;
(b) An allegation is so inherently implausible that only a reckless person would have put it into circulation; or
(c) There are obvious reasons to doubt the veracity of the defamatory allegation or the accuracy of an informant's reports. There are obvious reasons to doubt the veracity of a report when:
- There is sufficient contrary evidence that was known to or should have been known to the defendant after a reasonable investigation; or
- The report is inherently improbable or implausible on its face.
(The House version also adds to this list, "(d) The defendant willfully failed to validate, corroborate, or otherwise verify the defamatory allegation.")
Some of these elements might be enough to show knowledge or recklessness even under existing law (e.g., if "the defamatory allegation is fabricated by the defendant"). But (c)(1) would likely call for some kind of a negligence standard, since it focuses on what a reasonable investigator should have known, not on what the defendant actually knew. (It might even call for strict liability, if courts read it as saying that, once "sufficient contrary evidence" is known, that's enough for liability even if the author reasonably considers the evidence and contrary evidence and comes to a reasonable though mistaken conclusion. But I expect that courts would likely focus on "reasonable investigation" standard coupled with "obvious reasons to doubt," and treat the standard as basically a negligence standard.)
The proposal thus clearly calls for Florida courts to apply a less speaker-protective standard than the one mandated by New York Times v. Sullivan. Here's how it would likely play out procedurally, if the bills are enacted:
(1) I don't think anyone could challenge the new rule before enforcement, since such pre-enforcement remedies generally aren't available for challenging civil liability schemes.
(2) Instead, when a libel case is brought by a public figure or public official, the defendant will likely move to dismiss, arguing that there aren't enough credible allegations of knowing or reckless falsehood to satisfy New York Times. Alternatively, after discovery, the defendant may move for summary judgment, arguing that there isn't enough credible evidence of knowing or reckless falsehood.
(3) The court ought to at that point apply New York Times, notwithstanding the new Florida rule, because the new Florida rule is inconsistent with settled federal constitutional law; and if there isn't enough to show knowing or reckless falsehood, it ought to throw out the lawsuit. At that point, the plaintiff will appeal (I oversimplify here slightly), and will presumably lose on appeal, for the same reason.
(4) After the appeal, the plaintiff can petition the Supreme Court for certiorari, asking the Court to overrule New York Times, thus validate the new Florida rule, and send the case down for proceedings in light of that rule. And this (hypothetical) overruling of New York Times will potentially affect the whole country, not just Florida, except in states that have, as a matter of their own state constitutional law or common law, adopted a New York Times-like rule.
This isn't the only way that the Court can choose to reconsider New York Times; but it seems an especially likely way, assuming the Justices are indeed interested in revisiting that precedent (and assuming such a bill does indeed get enacted).
Let me close with excerpts from some of the classic arguments by the Justices in this area (I should note that I tentatively support keeping the New York Times rule, as likely the lesser of the evils, but I think there are important arguments on both sides).
[1.] First, Justice Brennan in New York Times, arguing for the "actual malice" test:
"Cases which impose liability for erroneous reports of the political conduct of officials reflect the obsolete doctrine that the governed must not criticize their governors…. The interest of the public here outweighs the interest of appellant or any other individual. The protection of the public requires not merely discussion, but information…. Errors of fact, particularly in regard to a man's mental states and processes, are inevitable…. Whatever is added to the field of libel is taken from the field of free debate."
Injury to official reputation affords no more warrant for repressing speech that would otherwise be free than does factual error…. [Government officials] are to be treated as "men of fortitude, able to thrive in a hardy climate" …. Criticism of their official conduct does not lose its constitutional protection merely because it is effective criticism and hence diminishes their official reputations….
The state rule of law [which generally imposed strict liability for defamation] is not saved by its allowance of the defense of truth…. A rule compelling the critic of official conduct to guarantee the truth of all his factual assertions—and to do so on pain of libel judgments virtually unlimited in amount—leads to … "self-censorship." Allowance of the defense of truth, with the burden of proving it on the defendant, does not mean that only false speech will be deterred. {Even a false statement may be deemed to make a valuable contribution to public debate, since it brings about "the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error." Mill, On Liberty.} …
Under such a rule, would-be critics of official conduct may be deterred from voicing their criticism, even though it is believed to be true and even though it is in fact true, because of doubt whether it can be proved in court or fear of the expense of having to do so. They tend to make only statements which "steer far wider of the unlawful zone." The rule thus dampens the vigor and limits the variety of public debate….
The constitutional guarantees require, we think, a federal rule that prohibits a public official from recovering damages for a defamatory falsehood relating to his official conduct unless he proves that the statement was made with "actual malice"—that is, with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not….
[2.] Some more from Justice Brennan in Garrison v. Lousiana (1964), explaining why he wouldn't go all the way to abolishing libel claims even as to knowing or reckless falsehoods (as Justices Black, Douglas, and Goldberg had argued, at least for speech on matters of public concern):
Although honest utterance, even if inaccurate, may further the fruitful exercise of the right of free speech, it does not follow that the lie, knowingly and deliberately published about a public official, should enjoy a like immunity. At the time the First Amendment was adopted, as today, there were those unscrupulous enough and skillful enough to use the deliberate or reckless falsehood as an effective political tool to unseat the public servant or even topple an administration….
[T]he use of the known lie as a tool is at once at odds with the premises of democratic government and with the orderly manner in which economic, social, or political change is to be effected. Calculated falsehood falls into that class of utterances which "are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality…." Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire….
[3.] Then still more from Justice Brennan's dissent in Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc. (1974), arguing against a negligence standard (which the Gertz majority adopted when private figures sought proven compensatory damages):
Adoption … of a reasonable-care standard … will likewise lead to self-censorship since publishers will be required carefully to weigh a myriad of uncertain factors before publication. The reasonable-care standard is "elusive"; it saddles the press with "the intolerable burden of guessing how a jury might assess the reasonableness of steps taken by it to verify the accuracy of every reference to a name, picture or portrait." Under a reasonable-care regime, publishers and broadcasters will have to make pre-publication judgments about juror assessment of such diverse considerations as the size, operating procedures, and financial condition of the newsgathering system, as well as the relative costs and benefits of instituting less frequent and more costly reporting at a higher level of accuracy….
And, most hazardous, the flexibility which inheres in the reasonable-care standard will create the danger that a jury will convert it into "an instrument for the suppression of those 'vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks,' … which must be protected if the guarantees of the First and Fourteenth Amendments are to prevail."
[4.] And now Justice White in his concurrence in the judgment in Dun & Bradstreet v. Greenmoss Builders (1985), arguing against the "actual malice" test:
I have … become convinced that the Court struck an improvident balance in the New York Times case between the public's interest in being fully informed about public officials and public affairs and the competing interest of those who have been defamed in vindicating their reputation…. Criticism and assessment of the performance of public officials and of government in general … are not at all served by circulating false statements of fact about public officials. On the contrary, erroneous information frustrates these values. They are even more disserved when the statements falsely impugn the honesty of those men and women and hence lessen the confidence in government….
Yet in New York Times cases, … [t]he lie will [often] stand, and the public continue to be misinformed about public matters … because the putative plaintiff's burden is so exceedingly difficult to satisfy and can be discharged only by expensive litigation. Even if the plaintiff sues, he frequently loses on summary judgment [or on appeal] … because of insufficient proof of malice…. [And when the plaintiff gets before a jury], the jury will likely return a general verdict [because of insufficient proof of actual malice] and there will be no judgment that the publication was false ….
The public is left to conclude that the challenged statement was true after all. Their only chance of being accurately informed is measured by the public official's ability himself to counter the lie, unaided by the courts. That is a decidedly weak reed to depend on for the vindication of First Amendment interests—"it is the rare case where the denial overtakes the original charge. Denials, retractions, and corrections are not 'hot' news, and rarely receive the prominence of the original story."
{It might be suggested that courts, as organs of the government, cannot be trusted to discern what the truth is. But the logical consequence of that view is that the First Amendment forbids all libel and slander suits, for in each such suit, there will be no recovery unless the court finds the publication at issue to be factually false.
Of course, no forum is perfect, but that is not a justification for leaving whole classes of defamed individuals without redress or a realistic opportunity to clear their names. We entrust to juries and the courts the responsibility of decisions affecting the life and liberty of persons. It is perverse indeed to say that these bodies are incompetent to inquire into the truth of a statement of fact in a defamation case.}
Also, by leaving the lie uncorrected, the New York Times rule plainly leaves the public official without a remedy for the damage to his reputation. Yet the Court has observed that the individual's right to the protection of his own good name is a basic consideration of our constitutional system, reflecting "our basic concept of the essential dignity and worth of every human being—a concept at the root of any decent system of ordered liberty." The upshot is that the public official must suffer the injury, often cannot get a judgment identifying the lie for what it is, and has very little, if any, chance of countering that lie in the public press….
[I]f protecting the press from intimidating damages liability that might lead to excessive timidity was the driving force behind New York Times[,] … the Court engaged in severe overkill…. [I]nstead of escalating the plaintiff's burden of proof to an almost impossible level, we could have achieved our stated goal by limiting the recoverable damages to a level that would not unduly threaten the press. Punitive damages might have been scrutinized … or perhaps even entirely forbidden. Presumed damages to reputation might have been prohibited, or limited, as in Gertz v. Robert Welch, Inc….
It could be suggested that even without the threat of large presumed and punitive damages awards, press defendants' communication will be unduly chilled by having to pay for the actual damages caused to those they defame. But other commercial enterprises in this country not in the business of disseminating information must pay for the damage they cause as a cost of doing business, and it is difficult to argue that the United States did not have a free and vigorous press before the rule in New York Times was announced….
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"The report is inherently improbable or implausible on its fact." ?
Face?
Whoops, fixed, thanks!
What does a law like this mean in terms of anti-SLAPP laws? It seems to this non-lawyer that it would significantly weaken those important provisions and give even more power to the wealthy and connected.
This is one of those things where the sponsors of a bill need to be careful of what they wish for. Under this standard, the Fox/Dominion lawsuit is over before it starts, with Fox losing big. People complaining about Killary, or the Biden Crime Family are targets. Newsmax, Breitbart, and the like no longer have protection.
It would deliberately and sharply weaken the Florida anti-SLAPP statute, in a separate provision that I'll discuss later in this series of posts.
"no longer have protection"
They have the same protection as everyone else. Still have to prove falsity and negligence.
"Fox/Dominion lawsuit is over before it starts"
Fox would have been more careful. A good thing, right?
Liability in the Dominion lawsuit would have been decided on summary judgment. There is still a live dispute over damages, which might be one dollar or over a billion dollars.
It would also have made Sarah Palin's suit against the NY Times much easier.
Or George Zimmerman's against the media for editing the video to make it look like he said that Thugvon Martin was up to no good because he was black.
I'd be fine with a statute that expressly applies only to leftists, as their views are seditious, outside the protection of the Constitution.
There are several well-established standards that lie in between simple negligence and actual knowledge. These include gross negligence and recklessness.
The Supreme Court could modify New York Times v. Sullivan without going all the way back to simple negligence.
ReaderY: NYT v. Sullivan and Garrison v. Louisiana set the standard at knowledge or recklessness, with recklessness defined (more or less) as "high degree of awareness of ... probable falsity." Recklessness is sometimes also defined to mean something like gross negligence, but the Court deliberately didn't choose that. What would recklessness mean if it's neither gross negligence nor the NYT v. Sullivan standard?
I would be more concerned with the implication that "Knowingly false" or reckless disregard for the "truth" would include any deviation from the accepted party line.
Cases on point -
covid and masking effectiveness
Simberg's questioning of the robustness of Mann's paleo reconstructions - ie accepted party line is that he was "exonerated " by multiple inquiries, and the multiple paleo reconstructions will similar results (not withstanding the underlying issues with the proxies used in all the reconstructions).
The potential is that the "knowingly false " stnadard becomes a form of censorship.
This issue arises under the Sullivan standard. Indeed any standard. The concept of libel assumes the truth is ascertainable by a court. And if that can’t be ascertained, there can be no such thing as libel, under any standard.
What’s interesting here is that you are proposing an approach to libel similar to the one that was applied, half a century ago, to obscenity. If nobody can reliably figure out what it is, then there’s effectively no such thing.
It’s worth poining out that half a century ago, it was the CONSERVATIVES who argued that if obscenity could be thought nothing more than an opinion, society will reduce to a point where EVERYTHING is considered nothing more than an opinion, and there can be no socially agreed facts. And here we are, half a century later, where CONSERVATIVES are espousing pretty much exactly the sorts of views they had warned, half a century ago, would mean the complete end of civilization. Views they had claimed, half a century ago, that the left was trying to inculcate. These days it’s CONSERVATIVES who tell you all knowledge is relative and society has no right to impose any kind of shared conception of reality, can’t even ascertain shared facts. CONSERVATIVES.
Just like these days its people like Marjorie Taylor-Greene who run around trying to insert flowers into barrels of guns and tell people that if we just smoked pot and sat around the campfire singing kumbaya with Putin, he’ll become a really swell guy, and at any right we can just tune in, turn on, drop out, drop some acid, put ourselves first, and not worry about the world. Because it really doesn’t matter. CONSERVATIVES.
“Easy come, easy go.
Little high, little low.
Any way the wind blows.
Doesn’t really matter to me”
That seems to describe the moral character, backbone, and philosophy of many of today’s leading conservative politicians almost perfectly.
When everything is opinion, nothing really matters, then of course there can be no such thing as libel.
“What’s interesting here is that you are proposing an approach to libel similar to the one that was applied, half a century ago, to obscenity. If nobody can reliably figure out what it is, then there’s effectively no such thing.”
This is grossly overstated. Traditionally defamation dealt with discrete facts — did X commit a crime, did Y act promiscuously, etc.
Joe Dallas is referencing scientific and policy conclusions — “ordinary face masks effectively prevent the spread of viruses,” for example. Or, “lockdowns are the best public policy to stop an epidemic.” These claims require proof over long periods of time, and even then are subject to debate and refinement. As the Third Circuit reminded us in a case blogged about here:
The notion that such conclusions can form the basis of a defamation claim, or a criminal charge, is highly disturbing. No government agency, including a court, should be empowered to come to a definitive decision about scientific truth. And, history has shown that they are very bad at making such determinations.
Concur - The proposed changes make it more difficult to challenge substandard scientific work.
A very recent example is the Study claim gas stoves are attributable to 12 % of asthma cases. That study is borderline academic fraud. A) they chose a methodology that is meaningless when there are multiple cofounding variables.
B) there is almost zero correlation between the states with high gas use and asthm rates - that should have raised red flags among both the authors and the peer/pal reviewers.
C) they ignored at least one more recent study showing no correlation.
flat out junk science, and borderline academic fraud.
The point is that the revised standards will weaken the ability to point out errors in studies. Look at marc jacobsons suit which critisized his renewable study.
just to clarify my point - any statement adding "color" that the results were agenda driven suddenly become a form of libel, especially if the results were the preferred policy or supported the prevailing political policy winds.
Look, another topic on which Joe_dallas is an expert! I don't know why this country ever bothered to establish a National Academy of Sciences when Joe_dallas knows all of them.
I would hope that those commentators providing rebuttals would have a better grasp of basic science. Unfortunately the David's , Queens, Niges have destroyed any hope of understanding some of the basic science.
Is the Michael Mann suit against Mark Steyn still dragging on?
Last I'd heard, Mann had lost, and Steyn was counter-suing.
The last thing I saw was from July 2021 where the court ruled that Mann had provided adequate evidence of actual malice to proceed against the blog authors but not the publisher.
"It’s worth poining out that half a century ago, it was the CONSERVATIVES who argued that if obscenity could be thought nothing more than an opinion, society will reduce to a point where EVERYTHING is considered nothing more than an opinion, and there can be no socially agreed facts. And here we are, half a century later, "
And we're being told that men are women, and women are men. So maybe there was a bit of a point there?
I think some interpretive decisions have suggested that the defendant has to have actual knowledge.
Seperately, the point I should have focused on was that the Florida Legislature may be making a mistake by moving the standard all the way back to negligence, and would likely be better off trying to roll things back a notch or two rather than all the way. The situation isn’t necesssarily like abortion, where there was very little constitutional-philosophy support for a half-measure. Here, it’s much easier to foresee some of the justices willing to consider a small rollback of the standard, but not to be willing to reconsider existing precendent until a law with a standard they might consider upholding comes along, resulting in a clear majority to simply reaffirm of Sullivan with maybe a suggestive concurrence at most.
If they try for, say, gross negligence, they might pick up more votes.
I think the fact that a simple negligence standard is sort of snuck into a statute that at first glance looks like it is requiring more may also prove counterproductive.
I don't think there's any good reason to revisit NYT v. Sullivan now. But if SCOTUS were going to be doing so anyway, one thing it should consider is make it an objective rather than subjective standard. As things currently stand, being crazy is a defense to defamation claims by public figures. If Sidney Powell sincerely believed her lunacy, she couldn't be sued no matter that her claims were clearly false. That seems wrong; it should be whether a rational person would have harbored doubts — not whether the speaker actually did.
"If Sidney Powell sincerely believed her lunacy"
I think it is more likely than not that she did. Which makes her a lunatic. As you say, makes it impossible to sue her for defamation.
Didn't she argue at some point that it was silly to believe what she said?
If so, it would be her first lucid moment in a while.
How is that different from the standard Florida is attempting to impose here?
As with Mr. Bumble I find the law and judicial decisions to be an ....
Seems to me that Justice White's position is a reasonable compromise in protecting the rights of both sides.
Unnecessarily relying on a ass to protect anything is asinine.
"The report is inherently improbable or implausible on its face."
Two thoughts on this potentially vague standard.
"Your president is not a crook." Of course the leader of the free world is not a crook, that's implausible.
We have recently seen a lot of jokes and commentaries about COVID conspiracy theories coming true. Maybe the Fauci of 2020, or another official in the U.S. or Chinese government, would have had a case under the Florida standard when he didn't under the actual malice.
"Of course the leader of the free world is not a crook, that’s implausible."
Not if coupled with evidence that he is in fact a "crook".
The proposed standard judges the accusation "on its face." It does not weigh evidence. Evidence can give you the courage to accuse the president of being a crook. If an improbable accusation turns out to be wrong, the Florida bill would make you liable under the same legal standard as if you falsely accused your neighbor of being a crook.
It looks like a terrible standard to me.
What if I reach a conclusion about some one based on a reasonable amount of investigative work. Nobody much believes it, because it is improbable (or implausible, take your pick).
If I now publish it, in good faith, and it turns out to be wrong, should I be liable? What if it's conjecture, based on a handful of information, but not demonstrably false?
If a statement can't be proved true or false it is not libel. If it can be proved true or false, if only by the plaintiff's uncorroborated denial, then there is a factual dispute for the jury to decide.
"official in the ... Chinese government"
Discovery would be fun!
It will be fascinating watching the entire rightwing media universe crumble if MAGA gets its way and fundamentally changes libel/slander standards/laws. Just like it will be fascinating watching comment sections and social media shuttered internet-wide if MAGA ever gets to repeal Sec. 230.
They will adjust. Or not, and suffer.
Just like the "mainstream" media.
People who put mainstream in quotation marks are among my favorite culture war casualties . . . And both the providers and consumers of this fringe right-wing blog’s incessant whining.
I’m glad you’re so matter-of-fact about the idea, Bob. It will make your flopping and sputtering at what those “adjustments” will necessarily be all the more entertaining.
But I kid. Normal people will step in and save you all from your worst instincts, again, and libel/230 reform, if any, will not go anywhere near as far as you all foolishly hope.
But “actual malice” isn’t actually malice; rather, it’s a legal term of art that, in this context, means publishing with the knowledge that the statement was false or likely false. (Publishing with knowledge that the statement is likely false is often labeled “reckless disregard” in this context.)
Can anyone point me to text in NYT v. Sullivan which confirms the conflation in that remark by EV. What concerns me is that without the part in parentheses, the natural reading of NYT v. Sullivan seems to be that reckless disregard is an additional criterion with its own meaning. So that the totality of the defamation exposure would be for:
1. Knowing falsity;
2. Knowledge of likely falsity;
3. Reckless disregard whether the allegation was true or false—which would presumably be proved by negligent conduct of some sort.
But with the parenthetical text added, reckless disregard becomes repetitive, and I suggest surplus, and a publisher’s possibly slipshod investigatory conduct becomes less salient, and maybe irrelevant.
On the distinction between the two cases hangs what I take to be a notable flaw in defamation legal doctrine as many experts here would describe it. Namely that publishers get an incentive (with the parenthetical operational) to be less diligent when they have a prospective story they like, but which more investigation might raise doubts about. If they do the investigation, and confirm a notable possibility the story is false, they can’t publish it. If they forego the investigation, and do not know for certain the story is false, they can publish with something approximating legal impunity.
Give the notion of reckless disregard its own meaning, and the picture looks different. Perhaps the decision to forego a further investigation to clear up an already-present doubt constitutes reckless disregard, and exposes the publisher to liability.
Because so many lawyers on this blog seem to think the way EV does with his parenthetical, and because I do not think text to confirm that is present in NYT v Sullivan, I have long assumed one of the subsequent cases spells it out. Any pointers would be appreciated.
God forbid you actually read the case instead of just making assumptions based on (a) your lack of legal training as a one-time newspaper publisher; and (b) your wishes that defamation law were more censorious than it is. (And no, "reckless" is not "negligence of some sort.")
There are, of course, a bunch of subsequent Supreme Court decisions that flesh out the legal terrain.
Nieporent, probably 5 years ago I asked that same question, and got back no guidance to specific text to untangle whether 2 or 3 bases for defamation were intended. Looks like your promise of subsequent decisions might be similarly disappointing. Do you know of any specific language in any case which addresses the question, even obliquely?
I literally just quoted you the exact language from NYT v. Sullivan that answered your question. There are no "3 bases." "Knowledge of likely falsity" is not in the opinion. There are two bases: "knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not."
This is true. You might not like it, but that's the way it is, at least with respect to public figures and/or matters of public concern.
it is the irrationality of the current standard that I do not like and would prefer to see changed.
If someone does not have a firm basis to believe a certain claim is true, then they would be acting with reckless disregard for whether it was false or not if they repeat the claim.
If someone does not have a firm basis to believe a certain claim is true, then they would be acting with reckless disregard for whether it was true or not if they repeat the claim.
I'd just like to see them specify that someone has to do some basic research in order to qualify for a defense against defamation. Someone tell you that they saw X at location Y at time Z. Then to have defamation protection you have to at least research where X was at time Z instead of just stating what your source told you is true.
Right now precedent incentives reporters to not do research, because as long as they remain ignorant, they can't be sued for libel.
"Right now precedent incentives reporters to not do research, because as long as they remain ignorant, they can’t be sued for libel."
Yes, I have the distinct impression that the Sullivan standard has led to a great loosening of journalistic standards. Would be interesting if someone did a study on it.
Not at all. When lawyers bring legally naive accountant practices that tend to result in company liability into greater compliance with the law, thereby reducing liability, it is referred to as a tightening of standards. Why should bringing the practices of legally naive journalists into legal compliance be referred to as a “loosening” of standards?
Stamping out loose-cannon tendencies to investigate and insuring they take place only for purposes of minimizing legal risk represents a tightening of standards, not a loosening.
That’s the purpose of NTTimes vz Sullivan, isn’t it? To put journalists in fear of the law and make it necessary for lawyers to crack down on them, tighten standards, and stamp out these practice of unprofessional loose-cannon invedtigations that create nothing but liability exposure?
When those who investigate become liable but those who fail to investigate preserve immunity from liability, uncontrolled, willy-nilly investigation is a loose, unprofessional practice. Under Sillivan a prudent media company has no choice but to comply by tightening its standards and direct and control its journalists by putting a stop to it. Compliance means reduced liability. That’s the purpose of having standards, isn’t it?. That’s why the lawyers have to in control and determine what the standards are. You can’t have the journalists running the zoo.
When the Supreme Court decided NYTimes v Sullivan, it doubtless thought journalists had too much power in America and were conducting far too many investigations and engaging in far too much fact-finding for the good of the country. It doubtless thought that the power and efrectiveness of journalists in this country needed to be considerably reduced. The decision is brilliantly effective at achieving tbat. It ensures that lawyers have the power and control, journalists are kept in their place, and the lawyers make sure the journalists don’t do too much poking around and looking at facts. That’s the behavior the First Amendmnet imposes liabilit y for. You can get sued for that.
I suppose you left of /sarc, but with the loons loose on these threads it's difficult to tell.
It’s exaggerated. But it’s a real and legitimate criticism of Sullivan, not just sarcasm.
The decision’s focus on subjective sincerity really does have the practical effect of imposing greater liability for people who investigate (and thereby risk making some sort of mistake investigating) than it imposes on people who take care to uncover no facts that could cast doubt on their sincerely held preconceptions.
By the by, there has been some chatter that the State may seek a gag order in the Trump case tomorrow. If so, we will be treated to a host of arguments, including First Amendment ones.
IMO, the DA would be well advised not to seek one. Trump is strongly disliked in Manhattan, and I doubt anything he says would sway the jury. OTOH, given his track record, he is likely to say something stupid that will either prejudice his case, or get him into more trouble. So were the DA to ask me, I would say, "let him run his mouth." (And as a courtesy, send Trump's counsel a bottle of Excedrin. An extra-large bottle.)
The Trump hating judge will put a gag order on him as a flex.
These subhumans are evil and twisted.
The judge who gets the case after arraignment may not want Trump to incite a mob to come after him.
Inciting a mob is not the same thing as talking about the case. If he does the former, that can be dealt with.
Perhaps the judge who gets the case might not want to incite a mob himself? Prosecuting and placing a gag order on the leader of the opposition party is a pretty incitey act itself.
According to an AP story, cases typically follow the same judge from grand jury all the way to trial. So poor judge Merchan is stuck with Trump for another year. Just when he thought he was out they dragged him back in.
Is "chatter" the new term for "shit people made up on Twitter"? Nobody is suggesting that and nobody thinks that a gag order on Trump could exist; it's like matter and antimatter.
I guess Newsweek (and maybe even its “legal experts”) is a pretty good approximation to “nobody”, but a quick duckduckgo of “Trump gag order” turns up: “Legal experts are speculating that a gag order against Donald Trump could be issued…
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-gag-order-could-land-former-president-jail-1792305
Setting aside that Newsweek at this point is basically some guy's blog — it has no connection beyond the name to the news magazine that it used to be — that article says nothing. (Which may be a good illustration of the first point.) One of the bullet points leading off the article says, "Legal experts are speculating that a gag order against Donald Trump could be issued."
But the "legal experts" quoted in the article do not appear to be experts at all — I mean, they're lawyers, but they don't seem to have any expertise in this area — and more importantly, they are not quoted as saying what Newsweek claims. What they are quoted as saying is talking about what would happen if a gag order were to be issued. They are not in fact "speculating" that a gag order actually would be issued. Not a single person is cited as "speculating" that.
And their insight is pretty much nothing that a random guy off the street couldn't provide:
Dave Aronberg, who is a Florida prosecutor (presumably quoted because the reporter had him in her rolodex rather than because he had any expertise with the NY legal system), tells us that if a gag order were to be issued, it would "likely" take place during the arraignment. And that a gag order if issued could be full or partial. And that he doubts Trump could comply with it.
Michael McAuliffe, who is a former federal prosecutor, also with no experience with the NY legal system, tells us that Trump probably couldn't comply with a gag order.
And Todd Berger, who is a Syracuse law professor who also does not seem to have ever practiced law in New York, tells us that Trump might not be able to follow a gag order and might be held in contempt if he doesn't.
Newsweek, once a serious publication, has become a zombie. The shell that remains employs no legitimate journalist. No legitimate person is asked to contribute. No legitimate person would agree to write for Newsweek. Nothing worthwhile is published. It is entirely partisan rubbish peddled by lame losers to desperate, disaffected half-wits.
It is only a matter of time before George Santos and Josh Blackman are named editors at large.
Well, I don't think you need particular insight into NY law or even a law degree to conclude that Trump probably couldn't comply with a gag order. I think we can stipulate that any hypothetical gag order would be violated.
IANAL, and have little familiarity with how criminal cases are conducted in NY. My sense is that the parties to the trial are usually admonished by the judge to limit their public statements about the trial, but I'm not sure it's normal to impose a full gag order. Perhaps someone with that familiarity could expound.
As for the "let him talk himself into trouble" argument, he's going to do that regardless, so it seem orthogonal to the question of actually issuing an order that will have no effect.
Is “chatter” the new term for “shit people made up on Twitter”?
Not only Twitter. Throughout the WWW.
nobody thinks that a gag order on Trump could exist; it’s like matter and antimatter.
Which one is his mouth?
White: "We entrust to juries and the courts the responsibility of decisions affecting the life and liberty of persons."
We do that out of dire necessity. Actual criminality needs suppression. But I for one don't TRUST juries and the courts to reliably get it right. The possibility of "leav[ing] the public official without a remedy for the damage to his reputation" is not so dire in my estimation as to unnecessarily engage the attention and likely frequent and often motivated errors of the courts any more than dictated by such necessity.
The phrase "...based wholly on an unverified anonymous report;" seems to be doing a lot of lifting here. There's a long history of journalists relying on anonymous sources and this proposed legislation seems to be aimed at curtailing that.
What, exactly, does "unverified" mean here? Verified by whom? Will this be used as a prybar to get journalists to give up their anonymous sources?
(b) An allegation is so inherently implausible that only a reckless person would have put it into circulation;
You mean something along the lines of a dead Venezuelan Dictator founded a company to count ballots in elections in the United States so as to be able to use software to change votes once cast to a preferred result.