The Volokh Conspiracy
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New Law School "Mismatch" Data from UCLA Lawprof Richard Sander
Not surprisingly, low LSAT scores are strongly correlated with low bar passage rates.
In a new post, Sander recounts the history of his work on "mismatch" (the incoming academic qualifications gap between students who are favored in admission because they contribute to 'diversity' and the student body as a whole) in law schools. After noting that it's been extremely difficult to acquire additional data,
Robert Steinbuch (a colleague at the University of Arkansas, Little Rock) and I eventually secured the public release of data from 12 cohorts of law students at four law schools, covering about 6,500 students in all. And after a multi-year review process, the Journal of Legal Education—the official organ of the Association of American Law Schools—has now agreed to publish the first set of our results in its next issue.
Our findings indicate that mismatch can account for two-thirds to three-quarters of the Black-white gap.
I wrote an oped on a related subject almost twenty years ago, and I heard from several law school deans and administrators (none of whom wanted their names or schools identified, naturally). Each of them told me that there was a "cutoff," known at their law school, below which the odds of student bar passage plummet. You can see this effect in the mid-150s at UCLA, the low 150s at UC Davis, and the mid-140s at UA Little Rock.
They added that if they resisted accepting URM students with LSATs below that threshold, the ABA accreditation people threatened them with being placed on probation for having an insufficiently diverse student body--even though ABA rules required law schools not to admit students that they thought would not succeed academically.
In other words, the ABA prohibited them from taking white or Asian students with LSATs below a certain threshold, knowing that those students were unlikely to become lawyers, but required them to admit at least some Black or Hispanic students with those scores. Worse yet, no one informed the students admitted with those LSATs that their odds of ultimately passing the bar were low. (Indeed, Sander's chart understates the matter, because it excludes students who fail out or drop out of law school before they have a chance to take the bar.) Even worse, at a public hearing I participated in, an ABA official acknowledged that for accreditation purposes, the ABA only cares how many URM students matriculate, and does not care, or track, how many ultimately make it through law school and pass the bar!
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Racism!
Double racism!
We need to scrap both the LSAT and the bar exam to achieve equity! (And who cares if we end up with a bunch of incompetent lawyers!)
Can’t wait for them to implement this “equitable” strategy with doctors and airplane pilots…
"Can’t wait for them to implement this “equitable” strategy with doctors and airplane pilots…"
Isn't it happening already?
See "Atlas Air 3591" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Air_Flight_3591
or "Affirmative Action/Diversity meets Aerodynamics/Gravity, guess who wins"
Frank
Look at what happened to the MD who got Bakke's seat in Med School: https://www.jeffjacoby.com/10931/affirmative-action-can-be-fatal
If you need a license, and any one of the special people has any difficulty of any sort getting a license, the license requirement is authoritarian fascism (or white supremacy, or whatever similar now-meaningless label) and the license requirement must be dropped.
There have been lawsuits against colleges that graduated students unable to get jobs.
"Unable to get jobs" I thought Senescent J had us at "Full Employment"
might not be the "Job" a person wants, it's why they call it "Work"
and not "Fun", nobody says "I'm going to Fun today"
Frank
They definitely need to cancel the bar exams. Not enough blacks are lawyers. There are definitely more than enough queer and Jew lawyers.
If fact, I haven't met a single lawyer who wasn't a homo or a Jew.
BravoCharlieDelta: Maybe you should stop going only to your family when you need legal representation.
lol that's a pretty good one
'I[n] fact, I haven’t met a single lawyer who wasn’t a homo or a Jew'.
What do you mean, 'or'?
I met Gordon Liddy once, pretty sure he was neither.
You meet alot of single lawyers?
Maybe they're overrepresented in the public defenders' office.
What percentage of those who fail the first time pass eventually? Isn't that the statistic that matters? After all, a person who passes on the fifth try is as much a lawyer as one who passes on the first.
If it takes you five tries to pass the credentialling examination for your profession, that says positive things about your personal determination and grit - and very definitively negative things about the educational program that was supposed to prepare you for that exam.
And that is the point of the study - the effectiveness of the law schools and their associated admissions processes, not the post-graduation grit of the students.
Not necessarily. The educational program could be great but you just have a low aptitude.
That’s why the mismatch calculation is important, because it shows that mere aptitude differences are not enough to explain the failure rate by folk who go to top schools.
It’s that that confirms - quelle surprise - that students in classes that are pitched too high or too fast for them, and where they feel like dunces compared to their fellow students, do worse than folk of the same aptitude as themselves who go to classes which are pitched right for them.
students in classes that are pitched too high or too fast for them, and where they feel like dunces compared to their fellow students, do worse than folk of the same aptitude as themselves who go to classes which are pitched right for them.
Makes sense, and also suggests that the more elite schools are failing these students.
If you are going to admit students with lower than usual LSAT's - for any reason - you should recognize the problem and address it some way.
Well, they do address it: They put a thumb on the grading to help get them out the door.
Brett knows a lot about law school grading.
Mr. Bellmore knows more about everything than people with formal training and experience. I wish you all would just acknowledge that he is savant on a scale that makes him seem like an assclown to all of us lessers.
I’m not sure I’ve seen that exact statistic, but the passage rate for multiple time test takers is horrendous and IIRC, gets even worse with each successive attempt.
Also, the bar exam is only given twice a year; someone who passes it on his or her fifth try has wasted two years of his life, and is highly unlikely to get a meaningful law job.
Unfortunately, under NCAA v. Tarkanian, I don't think there would be much of a remedy against the ABA.
Can we stop with this stupid upper-case "Black' and lower-case "white".
so you're saying you don't like the Uppity-case Blacks??
How about going back to Negro, Caucasian, Asia.....
Asian was “Mongoloid”. So said an ancient Atlas from the early part of last century in a section about great races of Man we had on a shelf.
Of course it was just referencing Mongolia area.
Times have changed.
That's actually in the AP style guide.
Another Jew machination in their long march to eradicate Whites.
Since this is a blog from Prof. Berstein, it's proper to ask; are Jews White?
Because if they are, then they'd be eradicating themselves which seems kinda funny.
But otherwise you're on FIRE today BCD!
Jews are Heisenberg Whites.
They're White when they need moral authority to talk about White Sin, but they're non-White Jews when they need to deploy their patent-pending Anti-Semite Shield.
No need to eradicate Whites (I'm Jewish and White, so I'm eradicating myself?) we're doing a pretty good job of it on our own, by just not reproducing (enough) and hate to admit the "Reverend" Jerry S is right, by dying.
Frank
But it's not universally used. The Washington Post, do their credit, doesn't do this.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/509562-washington-post-to-capitalize-black-white-in-stories/
Go for it. I'm fully on-board with people announcing their disrespect of other people.
What the hell does it say about anything that Black is capitalized and white isn't? Why is either capitalized? Neither should be. It says more about your adherence to dogma than it does about anybody else's amount of respect for other people. Just ridiculous.
Far too many people care far too much about the vagaries of someone else's institutional style. In my own writing, I capitalize neither color when using it as a racial identifier. If I had a publication and were in charge of other folks' writing, that would be how I'd edit it. But if the publication to which I submit my work has its own style book with its own rules, the editor will edit accordingly, and that's fine. It's their publication. There's no "should" about it.
It's hardly a vagary.
Nice to see confirmation so quickly.
You're obviously hostile to me, so here's what you should do if you actually care: go to http://www.google.com (or your preferred search engine) and type into the search bar "why do we capitalize Black?"
You'll get a whole bunch of resources that will explain the sociopolitical history that led us to this point.
You’re obviously hostile to me
You? Not in particular. Stupid things you post? Yeah.
people announcing their disrespect of other people.
You made this statement. Back it up.
Well, if you're so confident that I post "stupid things", why would you trust that I'd give you a good explanation when you can look it up yourself?
Seriously, "You're stupid. Explain this to me." isn't a way to make someone to waste time trying to help you.
Question: Why would the LSAT score, relative to a school's median score, be related to bar passage? That is, why would the success cut-off differ, from school to school? Shouldn't (say) a 152 be correlated with the same bar passage rate, regardless of the school?
Does the study control for access to Bar prep (which may, in turn, be contingent upon lining up post-graduate employment opportunities from firms willing to provide Bar prep stipends) or other socio-economic factors that could impact a student's performance?
Also - why would mismatch matter more for Black students than for Hispanic students?
The apparent lack of data from truly "elite" law schools is notable, as well, and the reliance on data from two law schools in CA (which has several more law schools than just UCLA and UC-Davis, including a couple in the truly "elite" category) and one law school in Arkansas (which has only two) raises qualitative questions about this data. In other words, the UA student body may well include Arkansas' best in-state law students, while UCLA and UC-Davis certainly do not.
Because if you are a student with an LSAT score of 3y, you do better if your classes are pitched at 3y students rather than 4y. Also if you’re a 3y in a class of 4y students you feel like a doofus and may just give up, whereas if you were in a class of 3ys you’d have no reason to feel inadequate.
How do you think a Contracts class for a 164 LSAT median class differs from a Contracts class for a 152 LSAT median class? Do you think they spend more time walking through the difference between valid and invalid inferences?
I'm kind of surprised by these results. But apparently, yes, it seems the pace of the course probably differs, and maybe the level of Socratic discussion and ability to collaborate with your peers on a level field makes a difference.
As a former teacher, yes, the class you deliver differs a lot based on the median capabilities of the students.
We're not talking about teaching math to 4th graders, whose competence is measurable through standardized exams. We're not even apparently talking about law school academic performance, at all.
A Contracts professor is likely going to shape how they teach around how they perceive their students respond to the material, sure. (Though in law school, that's giving them far more credit than they usually deserve.) But that's not the what we have data for. We have LSAT scores, so the question is (i) how, if at all, does LSAT translate into how classes are taught and (ii) why we're even talking about law school classes, when the correlated output we're looking at has nothing to do with graduation rates or academic performance in law school.
Put another way - law school, at best, lays the groundwork for bar prep. There were whole subjects I had to crash-learn for the exam, and fairly specialized ways of re-packaging my understanding of other covered subjects. (And remember that the bar exam covers a lot of topics that are squared away one or two years before, in law school. I spent my last year and a half focusing on electives in law school, not rules of evidence, contracts, torts, or any of that.) So even if there was some correlation between median LSAT scores and how law professors teach, we'd also have to explain why that pedagogy makes a difference for bar passage.
I assume the instructors aim their level of instruction at the median student, more or less? Otherwise they're wasting time that could be spent giving the students a better education.
So if you're too far below the median for the school, you won't be able to keep up.
This explanation is too pat, and fails to account for typical law school pedagogy. How do you "aim" the walk through a typical case book to a slightly-lower or -higher LSAT level?
It also assumes that law schools teach in a way that prepares law students to take the bar exam. Taking a law school exam could in some ways prepare a student for a bar exam issuer-spotter (though, again, not apparently a context where LSAT-aiming would make a difference). But prepping for the substance of the bar exam is usually a separate endeavor.
One likely answer is that non-elite law schools (especially state schools) tailor their curricula toward passing the local bar exam.
"Elite" law schools pride themselves on teaching at a more "intellectual" level that is intentionally not targeted at BAR prep. Based on my experience, the expectation is that Bar Bri will be sufficient to get you through the Bar.
Unless you're Michelle Obama--then you need two does of BarBri.
This is spot on.
This explanation is too pat, and fails to account for typical law school pedagogy. How do you “aim” the walk through a typical case book to a slightly-lower or -higher LSAT level?
Simple -- the Socratic method can be adjusted by asking more or less obtuse questions.
It also assumes that law schools teach in a way that prepares law students to take the bar exam. Taking a law school exam could in some ways prepare a student for a bar exam issuer-spotter (though, again, not apparently a context where LSAT-aiming would make a difference). But prepping for the substance of the bar exam is usually a separate endeavor.
Then what is the value of law school?
The issue may be the school's whole curriculum, or their philosophy.
My limited understanding is that the non-elite schools are oriented towards the nuts and bolts of legal practice, including a lot of so-called "bar courses," while the more elite places tend to almost sneer at that basic stuff, and the faculty all want to teach nice academic seminars that don't actually help the students practice law. I once heard a well-known law professor describe it as classes in "law and whatever I thought about getting a Ph.D. in."
So maybe what we are seeing reflects that. Notice in the chart that UA Little Rock's passage rate are much higher than UCLA's for scores below 159, and are comparable for higher scores.
"The issue may be the school’s whole curriculum, or their philosophy.
And a third variable -- "Black Attitude" -- aka '"They Won't DARE Flunk Me."
An analogy -- say Gina Goodbody is sleeping with the Dean and everyone knows it. Are you going to flunk her? (I wouldn't.) Nor am I going to flunk the star (undergrad) basketball player. And both know that -- *and* know that they will succeed without much effort.
So Gina then takes the bar exam, which doesn't care who she is sleeping with, and she flunks it. But had Gina instead attended a law school with a Cisgendered Hetero-normative female dean, and had to actually had to earn her grades, she would likely pass the bar exam.
" Notice in the chart that UA Little Rock’s passage rate are much higher than UCLA’s for scores below 159, and are comparable for higher scores."
Multiple bar exams introduce measurement variance. I would stick with just one and look at passage rates on it. It makes your statistical modeling a little big more difficult but you have the constant of the same bar exam (and preferably same administration) as a more reliable constant.
How many law school deans have you known?
I mean, you literally managed to miss 100% of the point, which is pretty impressive. This is about mismatch — about the idea that going to a school above one's level is harmful. If the mismatch theory were wrong, then, yes, a 152 would be correlated with the same bar passage rate, regardless of the school. This is testing that theory.
"Above one's level" is doing a lot of work here. The authors don't actually describe an objective way of determining whether a school is "above one's level," apart from relative LSAT scores.
According to the chart provided, students with a 152 LSAT fare poorly at UCLA, have a 50/50 shot at bar passage at UC-Davis, and are likely to pass at UA. What explains the different performance of these apparently equally-competent students? Your response is simply to say that they're the median LSAT student at UA, but significantly below median at UCLA and somewhat below median at UC-Davis. Yes, yes, I can see that for myself. But why does that make the difference? You don't have an answer for that.
People are just importing their analytical priors. We don't know anything about these students' academic performance in law school, so to describe them as attending schools "above one's level" is not shown by the data. We don't know that these schools are doing anything differently, in terms of training students for the bar. We just know that people who do equally well on the LSAT seem to be less likely to pass the bar when they attend schools where their classmates did better on the LSAT than them. What is the causal mechanism?
We don’t know anything about these students’ academic performance in law school
Actually we do. Previous versions of this sort of research indicate that more students with low LSAT scores, relative to the median in their school, drop out; compared to students with comparable LSAT scores who are at schools with a lower median.
Further, such students fall further behind their higher LSATed classmates as time goes by. This is consistent with the hypothesis that they become discouraged.
I mean, you literally managed to miss 100% of the point, which is pretty impressive. This is about mismatch — about the idea that going to a school above one’s level is harmful.
The problem I have is that the bar exam remains a constant and hence flies in the fact of mismatch theory, which includes the underlying thesis that the lower level school also teaches less.
I suspect there's a couple of factors:
First, there's always a tradeoff between the breadth, difficultly, and amount of time spent on material. With weaker students you spent more time making sure they master the essentials, with stronger students you more quickly jump into higher level questions or separate topics.
If the course is moving on too quickly then weaker students aren't given time to master the material.
The second factor is peer groups. If you're at the same level of other students who think "I am smart and hard working enough" and you're willing to invest the extra effort to keep up and compete with them.
If you're noticeably weaker than other students then you're discouraged and feel you're not capable of competing. Research has shown that when people are told they're dumb they often live down to that expectation, and the mismatch is putting them in a scenario where they're made to feel dumb.
There's a certain subset of poster's here who are trying to frame this as a way to bash minorities, but those folks aren't great at understanding data. What this study really implies is that the relative lack of black and Hispanic lawyers isn't due to a weak talent pool, it's that perfectly capable students are failing because they are thrown into an unsuitable educational environment.
The counter-intuitive thing is that affirmative action, the thing meant to reduce racial inequality is instead exacerbating it.
I did a study in the 80's and found that, whether the law school practiced affirmative action or not, roughly 50% of all incoming students ended up in the bottom half of the class. Why the racial or ethnic composition of the bottom half was a matter of great concern was far from clear.
In any event, if "mismatch" hurts minority students who would be better off going to less selective schools, that is something the applicants should, with proper information, decide for themselves, rather than the admissions office.
"with proper information,"
...and who will provide that?
I'm sure Professor Bernstein would gladly publicize his work.
It took years of effort for Sander to get this data on only 3 law schools. It's affirmatively covered up.
Dude, I read about about a mismatch study in college back in the 00s. This isn't covered up.
Just double-checked with a google search. Yeah, Sanders published his first study in 2004. There have been books and articles about it periodically since then.
If this is a "cover up", it's the worst one ever.
Donald Trump often unburdened himself of something obvious and would say "a lot of people don't know that." I don't know why I expect better from a practicing academic like DB, but, sadly, I do.
That said, just about any statement of the form "a lot of people don't know X" will be trivially true because a lot of people don't know jacks**t. Doesn't mean it isn't widely known among tolerably well-informed people and easily accessible to those who don't happen (often for good reasons) to know it
Why would you imagine that evidence of data leaking out from time to time refutes the assertion that the possessors of data try to prevent it from leaking out ?
It isn't just "leaked" data. There have been published books and articles on "mismatch" over a long time. The subject is familiar. I, for one, have heard it discussed for years. If memory serves -- though at my age memory isn't evidence of anything -- at this very blog.
It’s affirmatively covered up.
That makes a number of assumptions based on an understanding of the left's coordination and commitment to deny reality that is not established.
"roughly 50% of all incoming students ended up in the bottom half of the class."
I see what you did there
Maybe you did and maybe you didn't. Can you explain what you think you saw?
"if “mismatch” hurts minority students who would be better off going to less selective schools, that is something the applicants should, with proper information, decide for themselves, rather than the admissions office."
Hm . . . are you saying minority students should never be denied admission at any school? So that they can decide for themselves where to go, rather than the admissions offices?
No. Why would you think that?
"n any event, if “mismatch” hurts minority students who would be better off going to less selective schools, that is something the applicants should, with proper information, decide for themselves, rather than the admissions office."
The flip side of that is that you are buying a degree.
The degree from the less selective school is not worth as much, even if you learned more.
An entirely rational calculation from the point of view of the prospective student. But, again, that is the student's concern, not the admissions office's.
Well, geeh whiz. Looks like students learn fastest and best when material presentation dovetails their zone of proximal development.
"The Zone of Proximal Development is defined as the space between what a learner can do without assistance and what a learner can do with adult guidance or in collaboration with more capable peers."
"Zone pf Proximal Development"
https://www.wested.org/resources/zone-of-proximal-development/
Don't folks around here not like the bar exam?
I don't like the bar exam because it is a grinder test, not a minder test. Rote memorization - more like med school. For better and worse, my tendency is smart slacker, so I love the LSAT and got a near perfect score.
I wouldn't get rid of the bar exam, though.
I can’t speak for everyone, but I like the bar exam more than I like mandating people to attend law school. All of the arguments about it being an expensive barrier to entry that doesn’t do a great job of weeding out bad lawyers is correct. But those criticisms equally apply to law school which is even more expensive and more of a time opportunity cost.
I don't think it needs to be either/or.
1L laid a foundation I needed. But 2/3L did not prepare me for practice much at all.
I think it's fixable, but some fundamental changes are needed.
Simple: Make 1L an undergrad major, like nursing, for which you can gel licensed, and then make 2L&3L into an actual doctorate, like the Nurse Practitioner license.
So . . . what's the conclusion(s) here?
Blacks don't receive adequate education in LSAT tests skills, i.e., reading comprehension, reasoning, and writing?
Blacks don't have access to LSAT prep resources?
Blacks just be dumb?
OH!
Now do exam takers from Tennessippi vs. exam takers from Massachusetts!!!!!
DOES Massachusetts K-12 have that much of a reputation nationally?
I'd actually be interested to see whether LSAT-prep actually increases performance. For example would a cohort of students whose unprepped score was 154, and post-prep score was 157 have BAR passage rates comparable to the 153-155 cohort, or the 156-158 one?
I know you're just trolling but I'll answer seriously anyway.
The conclusion is that affirmative action not only doesn't work but that it actively backfires, harming the very people its proponents claim to want to help. Students, whether black, white or purple, should go to the best school that they are objectively qualified for because that is the program where they are most likely to succeed.
But affirmative action is not the CAUSE of the problem.
What's CAUSING the low LSAT scores?
And the low LSAT scores are actually the symptom - not the problem.
A symptom of what? Don't keep it to yourself!
The LSAT scores themselves are not "caused" -- they just are.
What causes law schools to have students with low LSAT scores? People whose brains don't adapt as well to the specific thought processes measured by the LSAT (and/or, realistically, the more universal reading comprehension/logic skills underlying them) are pushing on to law school rather than taking it as an early warning that it might not be the best career choice for them, and the law schools feel pressured to accept a number of them anyway.
Pressured? Or just padding their budget with tuition from students that shouldn't be there?
There may be some of that as well. But that would mean they ran out of willing payers that had higher LSAT scores, which seems fairly unlikely given the typical acceptance rates for mid-upper tier schools.
>What’s CAUSING the low LSAT scores?
Likely less effective preparation in k-12, which subsequently results in less effective mastery of college level material, poorer reasoning skills, and so on.
Is that the answer you were looking for?
That's a potential fix.
So if we improved the K-12 experience for Blacks, the the LSAT scores might improve which could lower Prof. Blackman's gap - and then this has NOTHING to do with afirmative action.
Yes. But we won’t. Stories the last two or three weeks that inner-city school systems in Baltimore and another large city (Chicago?) have almost zero graduating seniors that are grade level proficient in math. Think about how bad that really is. Nothing is ever done.
Here in Houston they’ve had similar problems to the point that the state education agency is about to take over HISD. And the reaction from locals? “How can they do this? If they do it’ll harm diversity and equity!!” It’s as if education isn’t even the purpose. They need a huge infusion of competence, whatever the impact on other things.
That’s what we’re doing to “marginalized” communities. The sad part is that the people doing a huge chunk of the marginalization are the most vocal in opposition to marginalization.
And no one is brave enough to say that the emperor is naked.
No. The fact that this could be cured if we fixed k-12 doesn't mean affirmative action isn't causing this mis-match problem at this stage. The affirmative action happens after the poor k-12 experience. The earlier k-12 experience can be the cause of low LSAT scores.
But the mis-match problem is that schools are admitting students who are less prepared-- knowing they are less prepared. Then those students end up in a class that is taught outside their zone of proximal development. So they learn less than they could have someplace else where similar classes where inside their zone of proximal development. Then the students who go to the "more elite" institution end up less well prepared for the Bar when they take it than they would have been if they'd gone to a slightly less "elite" school.
The cause of this mismatch at in law school attendance is the decision to admit them with lower qualifications.
That decision to admit them despite evidence they are less prepared than other students is done under "affirmative action".
The k-12 problem which I think is real should be fixed. That is an independent problem.
But wrt to an individual student who has gotten through college, that k-12 damage is already done. If the mismatch effect is true then the affirmative action in law school admission, on the balance, causes further harm.
"But the mis-match problem is that schools are admitting students who are less prepared– knowing they are less prepared"
AND the minority student knowing he doesn't have to do as much as anyone else.
"What’s CAUSING the low LSAT scores?"
Not enough credited responses on the answer sheet.
Or: Grading a curve is causing the low LSAT scores.*
Grading on a curve means high and low scores. Duh.
*The LSAT isn't technically graded on a curve, but the effect is similar.
Now -- What's CAUSING the HIGH LSAT scores???
One flaw in the analysis (from what I can see) is that it treats all BAR exams as being of similar difficulty, and I do not believe that is the case.
To be more meaningful, you need to segregate (sorry!) the BAR-takers by state.
This was my first thought as well. But, seeing the first two schools were both CA schools lessened this objection.
Plus, I think CA is supposed to be the hardest bar exam, assuming that's the case, I'd bet the UCLA pool of bar takers are taking a set of exams with easier average difficulty. That's because UCLA is a school that has some national reach and probably has a good chunk of bar takers all over the country whereas UC Davis would be more regional and may have nearly all their students taking CA.
I'd hesitate to compare to UA Little Rock without more info.
[DELETED]
I’m not sure CA’s exam is the most difficult these days, as it has significantly eased its bar exam and lowered the passing score to achieve a more diverse bar. If those moves don’t result in more lawyers who are URMs, Calbar will make the exam even easier and ultimately put it to death. Nothing, absolutely nothing, will stand in the way of equity.
Thanks - I figured that would be happening sooner or later.
ML -- with as many people leaving CA as there are, you can't presume CA bar.
at a public hearing I participated in, an ABA official acknowledged that for accreditation purposes, the ABA only cares how many URM students matriculate, and does not care, or track, how many ultimately make it through law school and pass the bar!
Exhibit A to prove the thesis that it's mostly about virtue signaling, and not about helping minorities make it professionally. Not to mention the student debt that students who go through law school and then can't pass the bar are saddled with.
I think they have been quite explicit that the purpose of admitting 'diverse' students isn't benefit to those students, but benefit to the general student body from having them around. At least, that's what they're claiming: That having a 'diverse' student body improves education for everybody.
Really, to be fair, they should pay them for that, rather than charging them.
I don't think it's virtue-signaling, exactly. Plenty of diversity advocates genuinely believe a diverse student body is beneficial to "non-diverse" students and that accepting lower-performing students to enhance diversity has the additional benefit of providing opportunities to disadvantaged minority groups. Seems to me most diversity advocates are acting with good intentions and not to trick others into thinking them virtuous.
The problem is that, to the extent the effects can be measured, it appears neither diverse nor non-diverse students benefit. The lack of intellectual diversity on elite campuses means that most graduates become more fragile, narrow-minded and incurious the longer they're in an academic environment, not less (witness the recent debacle at Stanford Law). Increasing minority enrollment has not resulted in more robust intellectual engagement on campus. And diverse students pushed into environments beyond what their academic records warrant end up struggling, as anyone would in those circumstances.
So as the data refuting the purported benefits of diversity-based admissions standards keeps pouring in, the question is whether administrators with good faith concern for their students will have the guts to admit what is now obvious and adapt.
" the purported benefits of diversity-based admissions standards" started out as just an excuse to move racial quotas beyond the reach of Grutter's 25 year expiration date.
I'm not saying that they couldn't have talked themselves into being serious about it by now, but it absolutely started out as just an excuse to retain quotas that they'd instituted for non-diversity reasons.
The problem is that, to the extent the effects can be measured, it appears neither diverse nor non-diverse students benefit. On a statistical level, this is absolutely correct (on an individual level plenty of great stories).
But does that mean you should never do affirmative action? I think it says only that diversity initiatives gotta be more than shoving minorities here and there.
The lack of intellectual diversity on elite campuses means that most graduates become more fragile, narrow-minded and incurious the longer they’re in an academic environment
I think you go too far here. I do think there is a lack of intellectual diversity on campuses *generally* and that's low-key a problem.
The right is doing it's best to convince you Harvard/Yale/Stanford no longer graduate people quite able to navigate the real world without collapsing due to microaggressions. But that's demonstrably untrue.
Congratulations David, you found an actual problem to care about!
Please make this your new crusade, and drop the everyone-is-antisemitic and universities-are-actively-trying-to-suck diatribes.
That accusation is unfounded.
Prof. Bernstein largely limits his antisemitism concerns to that which he can attempt to pin on the liberal-libertarian mainstream.
You are officially muted.
Man, the guy just can't take a compliment.
Now I'm curious if there's an "officially muted by David Bernstein" list somewhere.
good call
It is, really. I've been baiting and embarrassing him for years, I'm surprised it took him this long.
Muting is quite pitiful. It only took a couple of weeks on the comments section for the little epicene nancy-boy sarcastro to mute me (he called me mean). As Johnnie Cochran might have said, if your skin is thin, then thought's a sin.
I love the "mismatch" theory.
On one hand, it makes perfect sense: entrance scores are largely predictive of success (otherwise they wouldn't be used in the first place), so allowing a class of people entrance without meeting that standard will lead to less success in that class of people.
On the other hand, the people most ardent about talking about it just can't thread the needle between talking about it and not sounding like a paternalistic condescending asshole.
The other great thing about it is that it doesn't matter! Whether you call it discrimination or discretion, curating or excluding, etc. or so-on, the bottom-line is that SCOTUS is never going to tell universities that they must entirely ignore race/ethnicity/religion/national origin. They will always leave wiggle room, and universities are always going to jump on that wiggle room.
And the "mismatch" theory? Well, it might get mentioned. But it's never going to make a difference.
I wouldn't count on them always leaving enough wiggle room to matter. I get the impression that the Court, or anyway a majority on it, are getting sick and tired of legally sanctioned racial discrimination, and are about ready to hit the universities with Brown II.
Is being a licensed attorney the only career option available for someone who graduates from a law school? In other words, for the students who were never able to pass the bar exam, is their law degree essentially worthless with regard to their career choice?
Short answer: yes. Long answer: yes, absolutely.
Law schools used to tout the value of a law degree even for those outside the legal industry. Maybe that was puffery, maybe it was true at one time. Then they started using that in the 2000s as a way to disguise the fact that graduates were having trouble getting jobs.
Wrong.
There are a lot of them in academia. I can name a half dozen in Student Affairs at UMass, and I don't believe that any of them have ever been members of the bar. I know a few more who are, but who went directly into teaching without ever actually practicing law.
I can think of one who has her framed JD on the wall behind her desk and tells everyone she graduated from law school but never mentions that little bit about the bar exam (and not everyone is cynical enough to look her up on the bar website). Others go on to pick up a MLS and become law librarians.
The thing that so infuriates me is that the JD is (a) a Doctorate but (b) not a terminal degree, and (c) most folk don't know the latter.
In academia you are supposed to have a terminal degree, usually a doctorate, and I know professors with just a BA & JD. My guess is that is the qualification for a lot of your DIE administrators as well.
None of this is true.
They can probably do other things. But those who took the bar likely wanted to pass the bar and move on to being practicing attorneys.
I mean, people with BS in engineering can do other things. But it's still a problem if students who graduate and decide tot take the EIT fail. I don't know if there has been any similar study to find out if students with low SAT or ACT scores who get special admission to engineering programs fail the EIT at differential rates. (Or take it at different rates. Not everyone takes the EIT. In fact, the least like to take it are those who continue on to graduate school instead of taking jobs straight out of college.)
Is being a licensed attorney the only career option available for someone who graduates from a law school?
I know plenty of people with law degrees who are no longer lawyers, including me. But all of them passed the Bar and were lawyers for at least a couple of years.
A Slate article titled Sanding Down Sander cites a study which found that “eliminating affirmative action reduces the number of black lawyers by close to 12.7 percent, rather than increasing it by Sander’s 7.9 percent.” An Inside Higher Ed article cites another study which found that the elimination of race-based admissions policies “would lead to a 63 percent decline in black matriculants at all law schools and a 90 percent decline at elite law schools.” The problem, apparently, is that when all mismatched students are shifted down to a lower law school the ones at the bottom are shifted out altogether.
The ABA reports a 61% first-time pass rate among Black law graduates in 2021, so a 63 percent decline in black matriculants would seem to eliminate some who would have passed the bar on their first try.
D.I.E. is going to destroy every institution. The Risk Management "manager" at SVB had no degree in finance or banking. Her background was in Human Resources and her "expertise" was diversity and victim-hood. How did that work out for them?
Law schools admit some minority students knowing that the chances of them passing the bar are low, but fail to inform them of that fact as they take the money and leave the minority student to fail while accumulating more debt with little chance of future gainful employment. Doing such gets them points from the media and all activist groups while doing nothing but harm to the students.
Holy fuck SVB didn't fall because of Wokeness.
You also seem to be full of shit:
SVB had no risk chief through much of 2022, proxy statement shows
https://www.bankingdive.com/news/svb-cro-Laura-Izurieta-chief-risk-officer-collapse-silicon-valley-bank-kim-olson/644833/
So it only correlates with wokeness. Prioritize fluffy emotional indulgence, no time left over to be professional or responsible.
Sarcastro knows nothing about banking, the financial system, or economics (and, apparently, he failed as a lawyer). He's about as trustworthy on this topic as Carrot Top.
SVB failed because they were forced to sell long term
debt securities that had dropped in value a lot due to the fed having raised rates. They were force to sell to cover a smaller liquidity issue but had to disclose the sale and took a $1.8b loss on the sale.
The market didn’t like the news and due to the unusual nature of their customer base people started withdrawing their funds and it turned into a good old-fashioned run on the bank. So regulators seized them to protect the assets and the depositors.
That’s it. Tale as old as time. Politics didn’t enter into it.
That's what I hear, as well. Some details about how their customer base was of a type to often have a unusual balance, and that there was a boom in 2021 and a bust in 2022 on that front.
And Founders Fund, the venture capital fund co-founded by Peter Thiel, advised its companies on the morning of March 9 to withdraw their money.
https://jabberwocking.com/silicon-valley-bank-was-fine-its-silicon-valley-thats-broken/
Some wonky details, but writ large, it is a tale as old as banks.
SVB ought not have bought those 10 year bonds in the first place!
CindyF is kind of the Mendoza line for intelligence. She will repeat anything she hears on Newsmax, though she doesn't understand any of it, and in particular isn't smart enough to realize that they just make shit up.
It's not clear whether she's talking about the former CRO at SVB or the current one, but either way, she's wrong.
No doubt the average millionaire is a lot more financially secure than the average non-millionaire. But that doesn’t mean a person with 1,000,001 dollars is a lot better than a person with $999,999.
The same fallacy of regarding boundaries as having magic properties may be at work here. Just because the average law student with LSAT below (say) 140 has much worse performance than the average student with a score above 140 doesn’t mean the average student with a score of 139 or 135 is going to do much worse than the average student with a score of 141 or 145. The average law student with a score below 140 may have a score much lower than 140, and the average score above 140 may be much higher than 140.
If the paper is putting people with slightly different scores into categories based on people with very different scores, than its numbers might not be supporting its conclusions as much as it might appear. The category border may simply not be as sharp as is suggested.