The Volokh Conspiracy
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The One Key Question No Justice Asked in the Harvard/UNC Affirmative Action Case
Harvard and UNC's defense is based on the perceived need for racial diversity; but how do they justify treating "Hispanic" as a Racial Classification?
In October, the Supreme Court held several hours of oral argument in the Students for Fair Admissions case, challenging the constitutionality of affirmative action preferences for African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans at Harvard and the University of North Carolina.
The questions covered a wide range of issues, including, I believe for the first time, significant questions from the Justices about coherence of the classifications used by the universities.
The key issue in the cases is whether these classifications can be used by the universities to ensure racial diversity. The phrase "racial diversity" came up in oral argument thirty-eight times, with Justices Kagan and Sotomayor in particular pressing counsel on the issue.
The question no Justice asked is why the universities treat "Hispanic" as a "racial" classification. The Department of Education, consistent with OMB regulations that apply across the federal government, treats Hispanic as an "ethnic" classification; Hispanics can be of any race. The Common App, used by Harvard and UNC, follows the federal convention in asking students first whether they are Hispanic, and then about their race:
Are you Hispanic or Latino/a/x?
In any event, despite Justice Sotomayor's protestations in her BAMN dissent that "race matters" with regard to Hispanics (but apparently not Asian Americans) in education, treating Hispanics as a race seems to violate federal law. (I have previously discussed how the Supreme Court wound up treating Hispanic as a racial classification, even though that's legally incorrect.) For example, I don't think that a university could legally prefer Greek American applicants over other applicants in the name of "racial diversity." Discrimination of this sort within the "white" classification would generally be considered illegal ethnic/national origin discrimination.
I expect if counsel for the universities had been asked how they can defend, contrary to federal law, treating "Hispanic" as a race, the first response would be stunned silence, because universities have never even thought about that issue. Once counsel recovered, the answer would be that the universities just use "racial diversity" as a shorthand for pursuing racial and ethnic diversity, and the latter includes Hispanics, including those who check the "white" box.
But that answer would raise serious constitutional problems of its own. If the universities are interested in ethnic diversity, why is Hispanic literally the only ethnic group that they keep track of to ensure such diversity? One could argue that Hispanic is a special classification, because many Hispanics are dark-complexioned, and thus have experiences not common to other ethnic groups. But then what of, e.g., Arab Americans, Armenian Americans, Persian Americans, or Berber Americans? Hispanics, one might argue, face discrimination that other ethnic groups do not. But can one plausibly argue that Arab and Iranian Americans, especially those who are identifiably Muslim, have not faced discrimination not common to those with whom they share the "white" classification?
The heart of the equal protection clause, which governs this case (including for Harvard, because that clause has been deemed coextensive with Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act) has long been a prohibition on arbitrary classifications. An applicant who checks off "Hispanic," then "White," then "South America" who is of Italian-Argentine descent gets a racial diversity preference. An applicant who checks off "not Hispanic," then white, then Middle Eastern who is an Iraqi Yazidi survivor of genocide does not. Nor does a very-dark complexioned Egyptian Copt, a member of a group that has faced centuries of caste-like discrimination in their home country. Arbitrariness, anyone?
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"castel-like" Auto-mistake strikes again!
Only racists classify people by race.
That's the silliest comment I've seen here in some time. The question is not whether racial classifications exist; the question is whether they are useful. Someone without a single racist bone in his body would still recognize that blacks and whites exist; he just wouldn't use that classification to make an employment decision.
It's not entirely silly; Somebody without a racist bone in their body would still notice that there was such a thing as race, in much like people notice that this person is blonde, that person has dark hair, that person over their is a red head.
But only the racist is going to consider it important to formally classify people on the basis of race, and then take different actions on the basis of that classification.
We can classify people by whether they drink coffee, what is their favorite color, and whether they have detached ear lobes, but we do not do so because it's not a useful classification. When was the last time someone's favorite color was relevant to a job description?
But that's not to say that those classifications can't be made. Just that they're not because they're not predictive of anything meaningful.
Krychek_2, I had a design studio boss who treated as suspect any job applicant who arrived wearing anything blue. He had built a national reputation on graphic designs featuring warm colors. I almost gave him a heart attack one day, when I arrived at work wearing a blue shirt and green pants.
Thanks for sharing. It explains a lot about your comments.
Stephen, OK, so blue bothered him, but that doesn't mean an artist wearing blue couldn't have drawn warm color graphic designs. It wasn't necessary to the job description; it was necessary to make the boss more comfortable. And arguably, a racist who doesn't want to be around blacks is more comfortable not being around blacks, so it's the same issue, with the difference being that in most jurisdictions there is no legal protection for choice of clothing color.
I was once asked my birthday at a job interview and, when I told him, he said he couldn't hire me because he didn't get along with Virgos. Same issue. I could have done the job perfectly well but psychologically the boss had an arbitrary comfort level that I was outside. Not only did I not sue, I was grateful that I found out up front that he made irrational decisions and I'd be better off working for someone else.
“Mar 14, 2023 – Today you could surprise a close friend or lover with a gift, Virgo. There may be no special occasion. You may have seen something in the store that you knew he or she would like or mentioned wanting. You aren’t doing this for the sake of appreciation. All the same, you will receive it. Don’t play down your own kindness. Just say thanks and smile.”
https://www.horoscope.com/us/horoscopes/general/horoscope-general-daily-today.aspx?sign=6
PS - my favorite color Jaguar is blue.
I sometimes read my horoscope a day late to find out if I was supposed to have had a good day or not. But my favorite answer to the question what's your sign came from Ayn Rand: The dollar sign.
And there's the joke about Trump taking the Mensa entrance exam. The proctor handed him a form and said "sign here" so Trump wrote down Gemini.
"Trump taking the Mensa entrance exam"
But, Trump would have hired someone to take it for him.
True genius is not knowing/caring what your "Sign" is,
like me, July 4th, Gemini? Virgo? who knows? who cares?
Frank
Kraychek_2, true. But the risk my boss feared was that a client might visit the studio and see folks wearing cool colors—which in his estimate, other things equal, signified inferior graphic judgment. His own graphic judgment had propelled him to an international reputation, so he felt entitled to rely on it as a business principle, as well as a matter of personal taste.
Don't make too much of it, I meant it as a funny story.
Krycheck,
Take your statement, and evaluate again, but as follows.
"We can classify people by their skin color, but we do not do so because it’s not a useful classification. When was the last time someone’s skin color was relevant to a job description?"
"But that’s not to say that those classifications can’t be made. Just that they’re not because they’re not predictive of anything meaningful.
Do you think someone's "race" or skin color is "predictive" of what they will do, anymore than being left-handed or whether they drink coffee is predictive?
Left-handed might have notable cognitive correlations. Since 1974, five U.S. Presidents have been left-handed, four have been right-handed, which could be a statistical fluke, but maybe says something about the kinds of talents prove helpful in modern politics. (I don't purport to know what it says). There were 3 major candidates in 1992, all left-handed.
You don't want to be making those "correlations" like that, because then the logical progression is to do the same with skin color. Then start categorizing people for these reasons.
Nonononono. You see, you have to classify people by race in order to see if (other, of course) people are being racist. And there's no such thing as the observer effect, btw.
Only racists see race as anything other than a neutral indicator of a person's geographical/genetic heritage.
Only an Idiot wouldn't recognize there are inherent differences between the Races, when's the last time you heard of a Drive-By Shooting by somebody named "Patel"??
Frank the gang-rape-cheerleader has found the gene for drive-by shootings.
It's the same one that causes nappy hair and pronouncing "Ask" as "Axe"
Frank
Yours just causes you to call for women to be gang raped.
This is why non-racist doctors screen everyone for Tay-Sachs disease.
and the Sickle Cell
It's actually more complicated that that -- as we pursue the racial spoils system, there are a lot of people miscast as Boston Brahmans and thus the need for an ever-expanding mosaic to determine whose Great-Great-Grandfather was more oppressed than whose.
With Hispanic, one category often overlooked are pirates. Seriously -- most of the crews were of Hispanic origin and what's often overlooked about the Maine coast beyond the Kennebec River is that it (and the islands) was largely settled by retired pirates. (They even had a pirate old-age home in Machias.)
More made-up facts from Dr. Ed!
So what if it is blowing a full gale right now and you'll arrive a little green, go out and do a demographic survey of the people on the Penobscot Bay Islands who families have been there since the 1700s.
Or perhaps admit that Dr. Ed is right.
Chicken????
Just because your unsupported nonsense can’t be supported doesn’t mean it’s right.
Good money on the opposite, actually.
The best part is that — aside from the fact that he's demanding that I disprove a random claim that he made up, and also aside from the fact that he's proposing that I do so in a ludicrous way — is that even if I did what he suggested and found out that "people on the Penobscot Bay Islands who families have been there since the 1700s" are actually hispanic, that would not in any way prove his claim!
“found out that “people on the Penobscot Bay Islands who families have been there since the 1700s” are actually hispanic, that would not in any way prove his claim!”
Discovering that I am right would not prove that I’m right?
As an aside: “https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19900603&slug=1075240
Discovering that one island has had some hispanic people on it for a long time would prove that most pirate crews were of Hispanic origin?
He does have the best made up facts
Justice Sotomayor's protestations in her BAMN dissent that "race matters"
do you mean Sotomayor's dissent where she wrote that a state constitutional amendment requiring compliance with the 14th amendment of the US constitution was unconstitutional
I agree that Hispanic isn't a race. But racists act as if it is when they refuse to hire Hispanics. So the law has to acknowledge the reality of how people act and not what, in theory, they would do if they were rational.
Now that's just a wee bit circular, eh? How else are you tagging them as "racists"?
A racist is someone who thinks racial classifications should determine how someone is treated. And it makes no difference whether the classification is real or imagined.
Ah, so you're mind reading that the reason this hypothetical set of people don't hire Hispanics is because they think Hispanics are a race. Not sure that's any better than the circularity.
Mind reading? There's actual studies of this effect. Whether conscious/intentional or not, there is something going on to be addressed.
Ooooooo... there are STUDIES? Wow -- I must be wrong!
Traditionally, you address evidence being presented. Are these studies badly done, hoaxes, irrelevant, or are you just being unpleasant to cover up for not having much of an argument here?
Interestingly enough, I addressed everything that was presented.
Impossible to say. As always, you haven't cited a single one.
If you wanted me to provide them, I could have. But that's not what you said; you went with the snotty: "Ooooooo… there are STUDIES? Wow — I must be wrong!"
I have TiP in time out. I'm happy to provide studies, but I want to point out that implying I'm lying about studies regarding Hispanic discrimination makes you both out to be enthusiastic ignoramuses.
Here is an article from an advocacy group that links to a number of studies:
https://salud-america.org/research-discrimination-impacts-educational-outcomes-for-latinos/
Not that either of you actually care about such things.
The references cited in the articles are all from education journals and psychology journals. Education is the most worthless 'discipline' in higher education and everyone who is involved in serious academic work knows that. Almost nothing that is published in education journals would make it past the first smell test at a reputable social science journal. They just don't do real research of this sort.
Psychology is currently going through a methodological crisis, as pschologists and other social scientists have been pointing out that almost none of the stuff printed in psychology journals these days passes muster as serious social science research because they don't meet the minimum criteria for good research (e.g. replication problems are the most obvious, but there are others).
So, this doesn't count as evidence, and, of course, you gave the game away by linking to an advocacy organization. Good grief, that's some useful 'evidence'.
I've muted him. He's bad.
"Pathetic ad hominem."
Lol. If you can show that the studies are sound, you should. But in the absence of that, questioning the rigor of the disciplines doing the studies is fair game.
"If you wanted me to provide them, I could have. But that’s not what you said; you went with the snotty: “Ooooooo… there are STUDIES? Wow — I must be wrong!”
That's the response you deserved, after claiming "There are studies..." as if that ended the matter.
I don't believe that QA knows what the 'hominum' in ad hominum means. She should leave the Latin alone until she is literate in English, which will take time.
Sarcastro addressed precisely nothing of what I wrote, but, since he called me 'bad', I will most definitely be weeping on my pillow all night long. But, despite his unconscionable meanness, I will most certainly not be blocking him, as he provides much of the humor in the comments section.
"Traditionally, you address evidence being presented. Are these studies badly done, hoaxes, irrelevant,"
What studies are you presenting that are not badly done, hoaxes, or irrelevant?
No more mind reading than any other inference.
Krychek_2 39 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"A racist is someone who thinks racial classifications should determine how someone is treated."
Which is exactly the dogma which dominates progressives beliefs and actions. Yet they fail to see that their actions are perpetuating the very thing the claim they are not doing.
Right, the usual crap about how people trying to fix racism are the real racists.
"People tying to fix racism?"
like Poke-a-Hontas? Barry Hussein? Common-Law Harris?? Clarence Thomas has more authentic African-Amurican-ness in one of his Pubic Hairs than Barry Hussein does in his whole nappy fro.
You know how you "fix racism"? stop being race-ist, like that Cracker John Roberts said
Frank
Brilliant insight. We can also fix crime by everybody just not committing crimes - no need for any investigations or enforcement.
That's actually how society functions, no way you can put everyone in jail. Funny how 99% of peoples don't die from Fent-a-nol overdoses(Dammit it's "Fentanyl" pronounced "Fent-a-nill" (rhymes with pill) but I've heard "Fent-a-nol" so many times I'm giving in.
Frank
Crime is kept down by enforcement. Sure, there are people who will not commit crimes even if there is no enforcement; but that's not all people. Same for racism.
You're right, all those Race-ist Black Peoples be's in jail.
Frank, everything you've ever said here strongly suggests that not only do you have no interest in fixing racism, you think racism is a feature rather than a bug. So listening to you on how to fix racism is a little like listening to asking a professional burglar his advice on home security systems. Sure, he might give you an honest opinion, but what would be his motivation to do so?
"Fixing Racism"?? maybe have Black Peoples only murder White Peoples/other Violent Crimes in proportion to their percentage of the population??
And maybe my experiences were "Colored" (get it? "Colored") by being the only White (and Jewish) kid on my Junior High Basketball Team, you haven't seen Race-ism till you've seen Black on White Race-ism (why no marches for Nicole Simpson/Ron Goldman?? and OJ got nationwide Standing O's when he got off)
Frank Wattabout Drackman
OK, you've attempted (and not very well) to provide excuses for why you're a racist, but the fact that whites don't have the monopoly on behaving badly is not a justification for racism. So when the subject of fixing racism comes up, you lack any credibility because you don't want to fix it. You're perfectly happy for racism to continue because you don't like black people very much.
and you're (probably) the one who supports killing hundreds of thousands of unborn black babies every year. I'm for letting every black baby be born and get killed later trying to stick up a liquor store owned by a Korean (What's with the Blacks sticking up liquor stores owned by Koreans?, it'd be less risky to rob a bank)
Frank
The law could treat Hispanic as a race. It does not. So the question is whether Harvard may do so unilaterally. What would make sense would be to have a federal indigenous Latino racial classification that could be checked in addition to or instead of white. But Hispanic groups are dead set against it, because it would deplete the number of their constituents when some only check white.
"Refuse to Hire Hispanics"?? You tried to get any landscaping/pool maintenance/House Cleaning done recently without hiring a Tomas, Ricardo, or Jose?
Frank
In the UK, they hire Poles and Romanians for that.
Love how the Brits used to joke about the "Polish Plumber", now it's the "Polish Interventional Radiologist"
No, the one key question is why does anyone think the Civil Rights Act permits AA, when both the plain language of the Act and the legislative history make plain that it is illegal.
Concur - along with the plain language in 14A,
though maybe their thinking is consistent with Sotomayor's thinking in Ricci & Shuette
Bored Lawyer, will SCOTUS do away with AA?
God willing...
Thank goodness that God is illusory.
More precise: Every bit as real as the Easter Bunny, Senator John Blutarsky, or Bugs Bunny.
You're right, no way a Surpreme Being worth his Celestial-ness would create a Jerry Sandusky, or if He did, (hey, even Surpreme Beings can have a bad day) wouldn't strike him down with a lighting bolt or something.
Would he create a Mengle or Robert Taney or Wade Hampton or Kevin Duncan, et al?
I don't think that there is a majority there that is that bold.
Thx for stepping up to the plate, Bored Lawyer. I know that I am going to make time to read the oral argument transcript. I have found them to be really quite interesting.
African Americans?? I hope not!! (HT J. Jimenez) that's 90% of my Pawn Shop Clientele.
I think because it was almost immediately perverted in that way, which they discovered that simply giving blacks legal equality didn't magically catapult them to social equality.
There were only a few years there when the Civil Rights movement were honestly just trying for legal equality.
Roughly when, in your judgment, did the civil rights movement go wrong?
1619
You think the Civil War generation thought that giving blacks legal equality would magically catapult them to social equality, and passed amendments thinking that?!
Acting like past generations are morons to maintain your own colorblind vision of the Constitution.
There are lots of books about Reconstruction and the Redemption. They may challenge your priors. You should read them before you make another utterly uneducated argument.
Why do you hate Martin L. King so much? Little known fact, he was "Color Blind"
Frank
"You think the Civil War generation thought that giving blacks legal equality would magically catapult them to social equality, and passed amendments thinking that?!"
No. Actually I think they had a long hard slog ahead of them, which Jim Crow had dramatically slowed. When Jim Crow finally ended and they got full legal equality in reality, they quickly discovered that they STILL had a long hard slog ahead.
And got impatient.
'And got impatient.'
Oooooooh boy.
Not only "impatient," but downright uppity.
Holy shit Brett this is extremely not what happened. Wherever you got that idea, it wasn't history.
So what happened?
Andrew Johnson and a buncha terrorism happened.
'This is extremely not what happened.' (?) Have you been missing your ESL classes this week?
That's how the kids talk these days.
Oh yeah, it was history. Anyone my age who grew up with Jim Crow still in full force remembers that, ‘impatient,” was for many decades the lynchpin of oppression for blacks. By the 60s it had become an embarrassment so widely reviled that King could use it rhetorically, to shame politicians to good effect.
More than 60 years later, that vile racist trope—with its evil further amplified with each passing decade—still escapes critical insight from the likes of Bellmore. While folks insist that Jim Crow is long past, ask yourself what you would think to hear it, if you were black.
There were only a few years there when the Civil Rights movement were honestly just trying for legal equality.
Bellmore, there was never anything dishonest about a demand for full equality. Never anything, in fact, which was not honest, patriotic, and in the best American tradition. Nor anything which was not reinforced and morally elevated by response to appalling injustice inflicted by force. If ever in history there was a more justified demand than the demand for full equality for black people in America, it would be hard to say where and when to look for it.
This will be hard for you to notice, but uncritical racism remains a thing—it goes stubbornly unnoticed by folks who have spent lives surrounded by like-minded racist others. What remains nearly impossible for you to see, is instantly obvious to folks who do not share unexamined racist presumptions.
No doubt you know some black folks with whom you suppose yourself on good terms. Try out your, “impatient,” trope on one of them, and ask for a forthright reply.
A lot of right wingers—who grew up and remain racists without introspection—get defensive about being repeatedly accused. They actually have no clue what they do to provoke accusations, accusations which puzzle and bewilder them, and provoke resentment. They consult their motives, and find nothing amiss.
They should look instead to what they do and say, and especially should look to how those get received by others. Of course, a near-universal impulse to discount how critical others respond is what accounts for the uncanny durability of uncritical racism, in a society so conspicuously struggling to get rid of it. See what happens if you experiment with taking critical responses from others as offered in good faith.
The big evil ism of our time is classism – which is not to deny white racism exists, but is simply indicating where the main threat lies.
Abuses (like criminal homicides by police, corporate misdeeds, etc., etc.) are usually against people who aren’t in the “right” social class. A lot of black people are outside the “right” social class, hence frequently they get the lash of mistreatment. On the other hand, many white people are outside the “right” social class, and they get abused, too. Examine other races and find the same thing.
It’s almost enough to make one a Marxist to see our managerial class, distracting attention from its own misdeeds, play down the issue of classism and try to incite racial strife.
This isn’t a matter of voting for one duopoly party or another. Some people stick to one party, some to another, some alternate between the two. It makes no difference. At least on the national level, the two duopoly parties are two wings of the same bird of prey.
Have a nice day.
First, why are you choosing which is the biggest ism? That seems a pretty silly endeavor.
Second, where are you getting your pronouncements about who is more oppressed based on what?
You're entitled to your opinion, but don't offer it as fact.
I'll offer *as opinion* that you might be full of it.
Probably, but that's neither here nor there.
This is unsupported, but seems load-bearing to your thesis: "Abuses (like criminal homicides by police, corporate misdeeds, etc., etc.) are usually against people who aren’t in the “right” social class."
Separately, you seem to assume that if class is very important, race can't be important. I don't see anything that suggests why this is a safe assumption to make.
I should probably have added some such phrase as
"which is not to deny white racism exists"
...oh, wait, it looks like I did.
The duopoly's buttocks is covered with your lipstick, so maybe you're not the most impartial source on whether the duopoly is abusing its power.
This is a remarkably unresponsive comment.
I never said you denied white racism exists, only that you did not support your thesis in a couple of ways.
I said nothing about your third party panacea thing either.
OK, I retract my remark, government abuse routinely occurs against people in the well-off, politically-and-economically-connected social classes. The poor and middle class, without connections, are pampered and coddled, except blacks, whose problems are attributable solely to a revived Ku Klux Klan operating in a secret conspiracy, probably in conjunction with the Rothschilds.
There, is that better?
(Incidentally, I have *no idea* if third-party politics will work, I simply know the duopolists worry it *might* work, as y’all show when you fight like demons to keep third parties off the ballot.)
I was hoping that he was talking about Alcoholics Anonymous. I refuse to remain anonymous. I loudly proclaim my alcoholism to the world.
Plain Language??? You probably think the right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed!!!!!!
They seem to be asking about Hispanic ethnicity separately from race.
And the feds track employment statistics on Hispanics. I couldn’t confirm if they require the same data from colleges but I would guess so.
Prof. Bernstein,
It's nice that you share your views with us (totally meaningless since we're all partisan hacks one way or another), but have you shared your views with OMB?
"The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) requests comments on the initial proposals from the Federal Interagency Technical Working Group on Race and Ethnicity Standards (Working Group) for revising OMB's 1997 Statistical Policy Directive No. 15: Standards for Maintaining, Collecting, and Presenting Federal Data on Race and Ethnicity (SPD 15)"
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/01/27/2023-01635/initial-proposals-for-updating-ombs-race-and-ethnicity-statistical-standards
I sent you this info in a previous blog.
Hopefully you'll provide input to OMB and share your inputs with us.
I know it's really crazy,
but why not base admission on factors other than Skin Color??
Think Martin Lucifer said something like that.
Frank
All the preoccupation with counting things by Race, anyone got a Stat for me, should be simple to find.
# of White Peoples in 2022 killed by Blacks,
# of Black Peoples in 2022 killed by Whites,
which number is greater (i.e. "Bigger")
and like any good Lawyer, I know the answer already,
Frank
If Obama had killed someone in 2022, which category would he fall in?
Asking for a friend.
But he did Mr. Bumble, He Did...........
"But he did "
Whom, exactly, did he kill in 2022?
I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you.
And for all the shee-it "W" took for Invading Ear-Rock in 2003 (Hilary Rodman and John F. Kennedy-Kerry supported it, you know it had to be a bad idea) Barry Hussein gets a pass for re-starting Afghanistan in 2009, how did that one work out??
Frank "Let sleeping Afghans lie"
The Volokh Conspiracy: Official Legal Blog Of Persecuted White Religious Male Conservatives
So a Spaniard would count, and a Brazilian would count (South America?) but not a Portuguese?
Choose "Other"? How does it rule out Portuguese?
Brazilians are officially NOT Hispanic/Latino, because it's defined as of SPANISH origin or culture, but you wouldn't know that from reading the Common App, so I'm sure some Brazilian Americans make the honest (and some not so honest) mistake of checking that box.
If the definition is "individuals whose origin is Mexican, Puerto Rican, Cuban, Central or South American, or any other Spanish-speaking country", which seems consistent with the quoted list from the post, Brazil is South American. But Portugal is out by that definition.
To be fair, it's hard to count to a brazillion, that's a really large number.
Another dumbfounding question that could be asked of the attorneys: Is it okay with you if during our deliberations we ignore everything you present which implicitly invokes legal authority to command a decision based on personal merit?
If you say it 150 more times, it still won't be any less stupid and ignorant.
Nieporent, how about you answer the question, and then call what I say in reply stupid.
The question is based on a false premise, that someone is seeking to "command a decision based on personal merit." So, no, I won't answer something that's relies upon a complete failure to grasp the legal or factual issues in play.
If the plaintiffs win, Harvard will remain free to use any metric it chooses that does not include race, color, or national origin. It will not be required to use 'merit.'
Mr. Nieporent, if personal merit is not in play, what distinguishes your plaintiffs, whose class is statistically over-represented among admitted students, from anyone else? Is it your assertion that their standing is founded on nothing more than an empty legal formalism, or do you assert some substantive injury each has suffered? Why isn’t statistical over-representation evidence to justify a conclusion that their class has not in fact been injured?
I don't understand what your questions mean. Whose "personal merit" are you even thinking about, what is "empty" formalism is as opposed to some other kind, and by what metric do you claim that there is "statistical over-representation" (compared to what)?
Their injury is the failure to be considered for admission without regard to race. How many times do I have to tell you that? You can't tell an Asian person that he wasn't injured by a racially discriminatory policy because other Asian people overcame that discrimination, any more than you can do so for a black person.
Do you not even understand that this suit is about prospective relief, not a suit for damages?
Mr. Nieporent, do you suppose the Court’s jurisprudence to limit considerations of race was announced to justify suits to demand additional favor for racial or ethnic classes already statistically over-represented among admitted applicants? How can you show the court that Asian statistical over-representation has not been arbitrarily privileged, on the basis of improper consideration of their class membership?
On what principled basis can you ask the Court, which has limited race as a consideration, to base a decision on non-individualized racial class considerations? Improper racial class consideration has been denied. You have offered no evidence to show the effect of racial class consideration proved an impediment to individual class members. How do you answer?
The university asserts it has acted permissibly. If the Court grants the relief you request, why will you not be back shortly with another suit, also without evidence of substantive injury to individuals, to assert the same class has still not enjoyed sufficient favor? Will you then come forward to sue for damages?
——
Nieporent, we could go back and forth like this all day. Your problem is that if you are denied the traditional measurement tools of meritocracy, no logical basis for the case remains. Hence your reliance on empty legal formalism.
What you are up to is an attempt to smuggle meritocracy into court. You hope to get a pro-meritocracy majority to endorse that, while both you and the majority deny you are doing it.
All parties understand there is no legal basis to let meritocracy influence anything. Which is why you have to keep saying you will not answer my questions. You also remain free to call me stupid—but you could not answer that way in court.
In court, you would have to either stand and stammer, or answer something like, “Yes, the court has announced a principle to limit the role of racial class in admissions decision making. I say now that this racial class has suffered racial consideration, which appears paradoxically beneficial, but only looks that way, because the court has already decided it is bad”—while I suppose mumbling, sotto voce, although I cannot prove any suffering at all.”
Finally, this:
You can’t tell an Asian person that he wasn’t injured by a racially discriminatory policy because other Asian people overcame that discrimination, any more than you can do so for a black person.
Sure you can. The black person’s racial class is underrepresented; the Asian person’s racial class is overrepresented. And without reference to the measurement tools of meritocracy—which you are legally denied—you cannot offer even a show of proof the Asian class has not been privileged arbitrarily on the basis of race, at the expense of the blacks.
Two notes for bystanders:
First, my points about racial arguments are not intended as the kind of empty formalisms which I think Nieporent promotes. I really do think there are folks who want to arbitrarily privilege for college admissions Asians as a class, ahead of blacks as a class. I think some folks who think like that are behind the lawsuit we are talking about.
Second, I do not mean to attack meritocracy as a social norm. I merely want to deny it a place in American legislation, or in court. I do not think the constitution empowers congress to pass any such law. I also do not think American politics would permit it, but that is a different question. If Harvard thinks it understands meritocracy, and wants to put that understanding to work in the admissions office, that is fine with me.
I can't even parse that into English.
Or that.
Or that, frankly. I honestly have no idea what any of these questions mean.
Why do you have so much trouble with grasping the argument — whether you agree with it as a policy matter or not — that a school cannot take race into account in making admissions decisions?
I answer it by saying that I haven't offered such evidence because this is a comment thread, but the plaintiffs litigating the case have.
Maybe instead of trying to tell me what you think I'm doing you should just admit you don't have the first clue what you're talking about?
Why would anyone not under the influence of major psychoactive drugs think any of that? Do you think this is a conspiracy masterminded by Beijing or something?
Can I be Frank?? Do I want an NBA with 13.6% (2020 Census figures, rhymes with...) Afro-Amuricans? or NASCAR (don't watch it, not sure what they call it now) with umm, 13.6% Afro-Amuricans (actually probably be pretty entertaining) or the NHL with 13.6% Afro-Amuricans?? (I'd definitely pay to watch that)
And like Senescent J said about 7-11's, you can't run a Dialysis Clinic unless your name is Patel or Dot-head, no way I'm going to the German Nephrologist.
If you just go by pure MCAT/Science GPA (the 40 yard dash and Bench Press of Pre-Med) 95% of your Doctors are gonna be Asian, is that a bad thing?
Frank
Man. It almost sounds like the competition for Olympic medals in the most oppressed ancestors category isn’t really a worthwhile, forward-looking endeavor.
It almost sounds like people should generally be assessed based on their skills and content of character rather than color of skin or perceived ethnic status.
But apparently if people point out that they aren't being judged that way, they are playing in the Oppressed Olympics, which is white people thinking that being oppressed makes you special and resenting that they're not the ones who are special.
That's right, 6,000,000 of my umm "Tribe" got gassed during WW2, pay me money!!!!!!!
Umm, bad example, Germany did pay Israel a shitload of Shekels,
but not gonna cover up my hypocrisy, I'm only for Affirmative Action for Races who've been "Genocided"
Frank
So you're saying Planned Parenthood should be paying reparations?
I fully support Reparations!!!
Of course with the average Afro-Amurican Family having a Net worth of $19,000, they're not gonna be able to pay much.
Yes, all negroes who have antecedents who were given free travel from Africa to North America and were subsequently given free room and board for life must pay back all of that money to descendents of the kind people who paid for their support.
Ship Fare/Room & Board? Statue of limitations has run out on that, I was just talking about their current victimizing of Whites/Asians/Hispanics. Not like they'd pay anyway (See Simpson, Orenthal James)
Ugh. I can't believe you're still on this broken-down hobby horse.
University admissions absolutely do discriminate based on national origin, every day and twice on Sunday. They discriminate on every possible dimension. The fact that ethnicity is one of those dimensions is totally obvious to everyone but you.
You continue to confuse the federal reporting requirements with the internal decision-making process. It's like insisting that Jeff Bezos is middle-class because he only reported $50k of income to the IRS.
LOL. Read the oral argument transcript.
University lawyers: we care about diversity on all dimensions, including all ethnic dimensions.
Justices: So why do you only have them mark down these specific ones, and only keep track of how many students you get from these specific ones?
University lawyers: we care about diversity on all dimensions, including all ethnic dimensions.
Justices: What other ethnic groups do you treat the way you treat Hispanic and Black?
University lawyers: we care about diversity on all dimensions, including all ethnic dimensions.
Justices: Do you know how you treat Arab Americans?
University laywers: No idea. we care about diversity on all dimensions, including all ethnic dimensions.
Justices: You're not answering any of our questions. If it's not a particular benefit to be black or Hispanic, why do you (1) ask only about those races/ethnicities; and (2) why do you only keep track of those, and no other groups?
University lawyers: we care about diversity on all dimensions, including all ethnic dimensions.
Lesson: saying something over and over doesn't make it true. The universities purport to care about other sorts of ethnic diversity, but they don't actually ask about them nor keep track of them, which shows that they don't.
OTOH, if they did care about whether someone was Greek, Armenian, Italian, Arab, that would nullify most of the arguments made by Justice O'Connor in Grutter, not to mention Sotomayor's "race matters" opinion, that she originally planned to deliver as a dissent in Fisher v. U. Texas.
By what logic? Race can matter without being the only thing that matters. I mean, seriously, are you even kidding yourself?
I did read the transcript, and they did answer the questions.
University lawyers: We care about diversity on all dimensions, including all ethnic dimensions.
Justices: So why do you only have them mark down these specific ones, and only keep track of how many students you get from these specific ones?
University lawyers: Those are the categories that exist on the Common Application, and they're derived from federal law. We have other sources of information beyond just those questions. We of course track these federally mandated categories, but they aren't the only categories we track. We track lots of other categories.
Justices: Do you know how you treat Arab Americans?
University lawyers: Yes. An applicant who revealed themselves to be Arab American would be counted towards increasing diversity along that dimension.
Justices: You’re not answering any of our questions. If it’s not a particular benefit to be black or Hispanic, why do you (1) ask only about those races/ethnicities; and (2) why do you only keep track of those, and no other groups?
University lawyers: Actually, we already did answer those questions multiple times. You, along with David Bernstein, just don't like the answers, since they don't fit your narrative.
Sounds like the equivalent of taking the Fifth Amendment.
(Universities do care that they not have "too many" Asians and to a lesser extent Jews (30-40 years ago the opposite), but that's quite different than caring about diversity within the "not Asian, not Jewish, not URM category).
What number is "too many" Asians??? I'd say "1" if it's Mao Tse Tung (I don't do the Mao Zedong") Doesn't it matter what they're doing? If I'm filming a Kung Fu Movie I need more, a sequel to "Schindler's List" I need less)
Frank
"I need less"
Fewer.
It's obviously a dumb thing to care about, but aren't the numbers 'skewed' (for want of a better word) by the fact that there are enough rich Asians to do so? If they controlled for economic backgrounds, there might be a lot of Asians too poor to go to college but not getting assistance because of all the rich Asian kids who are. Which is definitely a shortcoming (if I'm right.) But of course in a sense that holds true for all ethnicities, including whites.
C'mon Nige,
"Skewed" ????
You can say it, (man!!) the numbers about Asians are....................
"SLANTED"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank
No. You can say it.
Bernstein, Randal seems to be saying that exchange you published is fake. He said he read the transcript. Has he got it wrong?
Here’s the actual question on Arab Americans, for example. You can decide for yourself whether my or David’s take is more accurate.
"But, if they honestly check one of the boxes, which one are they supposed to check?
MR. PARK: I — I don’t — do not know the answer to that question."
"individualized holistic analysis" is meaningless pablum.
Like I said, you just don't like the answers.
I don't much like some of the academic jargon either, but that doesn't make it meaningless.
Did you listen to Prof. Baude's podcast where that CRT prof discusses intersectionality? It's pretty jargon free, and helped me to translate a bit.
Prof. Bernstein's take is more accurate.
1) As the part you yourself quote says, "we do track in particular, again, after the admissions process, religion and — and country of origin and that sort of thing." Nobody cares what demographic info they collect on the class so that they can put the data in the recruiting brochures. We're talking about the admissions process.
2) You're being completely disingenuous. One set of data — race writ crudely — they track comprehensively. The things that Prof. Bernstein is talking about, they don't even ask about, and their own lawyer doesn't even know how it might work.
"Oh, we would take it into consideration — in some holistic way that the actual data proves we don't do — if applicants happened to volunteer that information" gives the lie to the claim that they actually care about any of it.
Of course, if you already think the universities are lying, it's easy to find them disingenuous.
But there's nothing inconsistent or contrary to evidence / data about what they're saying. You just think they're acting in bad faith and lying to the court. Ok. I don't. Ok. There's not really any way to advance this conversation beyond that impasse.
A plausible outcome of this case that at least one justice suggested is that universities can still take race into account, they just can't use the federally mandated checkboxes. They's have to use the same self-identification "holistic analysis" that they use for everything else. I don't think the universities would have much of a problem with that at all. It's not ideal, since why not use information that's there, but they could still achieve their admissions goals using self-identification.
Also, notably, Students for Fair Admissions was fine with that outcome too.
You mean, like, if schools actually considered an applicant's individual circumstances, such that it could be a plus factor for anyone, rather than just crudely using a racial checkbox?
Obviously SFFA would only be fine with it if it wasn't just subterfuge in which Asian applicants claiming to have overcome discrimination were pooh-poohed while rich black applicants who claimed to have suffered so-called microaggressions in their lives were given a massive boost.
Sure, recalling of course that the point is diversity, so it'll be more like... one discriminated-against Asian, check. One discriminated-against black person, check. One rich, privileged Asian, check. One rich, privileged black person, check.
I suppose there is one flaw in your position that I can point to and watch you try to squirm out of it.
I'm not claiming to know exactly what data they track when. But even assuming your interpretation is correct, it still shows that they care about these diversity dimensions.
Which contradicts this:
The fact that they track the religious diversity and national-origin diversity of their classes proves that they care about it and strongly suggests that they take it into consideration. Why would they say they take it into consideration (under oath to a court), track the outcomes, and publicize them, if they "don't actually care about any of it?" It doesn't make any sense.
Tracking this data makes perfect sense given that the primary goal of most of these universities is to let unqualified or underqualified blacks into the university, but, since they have been told that they cannot judge solely on race, they must obfuscate the fact that they are doing so by collecting all sorts of data to suggest that race is not the main (or, at least, only) thing.
At my university, I was at a DIE/HR meeting a year ago about job searches (undercover, in a manner of speaking) in which we faculty members were told in no uncertain terms that our percentage of black faculty was too low and we needed to change it, but that we were not allowed to talk publicly about this. We were given all sorts of recommendations (commands) about how to ask for information that we could use to hide the fact that we were really asking for black candidates.
I have also spoken to admissions officials at two Ivy League institutions (my alma mater and my daughter's) who, believing that I was on their side, gave me similar stories about the goal being to get specific numbers of blacks (and hispanics to a lesser degree) into the schools, but being forced to present this larger argument about diversity of all sorts (not ideological, of course) in order to evade the rules against hard quotas.
The reason that people who know about how university admissions and hiring work think that the universities are lying is because they are lying and they aren't very secretive about it.
What are you talking about? The universities are very forthcoming about their desire get more blacks and Hispanics admitted. That’s what these lawsuits are entirely about!
And I agree with you, the extent to which they have to jump through hoops to pretend like that’s not what they’re doing is silly. They say so themselves.
That was a major theme of the oral arguments. The conservative justices are busy trying to add hoops, but they’re ok with the goals themselves of trying to get more minority students. They just want the universities to use “race-neutral alternatives” to do so. The liberals were like, what sense does that make? Why make them pretend like they’re not selecting for blacks, if they are, and it’s ok that they are?
Well, I suppose that we agree on the facts, but not on the policy. I would maintain, however, that universities are not, in fact, really that open about what they are doing, which is close to a quota system at the undergraduate admissions level, and sometimes even worse at the hiring level (e.g., admins saying that if you don't hire a black or hispanic, you aren't hiring at all).
I would be much happier with an open and honest discussion about whether race has anything to do with academic quality or integrity. On those lines, I reject some of the concessions made by the conservatives on the SC (and elsewhere) that racial diversity is, in itself, a goal that is consistent with the academic mission of universities.
Anyone who's been to college could tell you that the goal of racial diversity is consistent with the academic mission of universities.
Well, the mission, anyway. Maybe the mission isn't terribly academic at this point.
Randall's comment is quite obviously false, since there are many people who have been to college and who reject the notion that racial diversity has anything to do with the academic mission of the university (if the mission of the university is the pursuit and preservation of truth through disinterested inquiry and not the indoctrination of its students in contemporary ideological fads).
My claim is that racial diversity is either irrelevant or an actual hindrance to the pursuit and preservation of truth through disinterested inquiry, so it is not 'consistent with the academic mission of universities' (and I've been to college, hooray). Of course, racial diversity is not the only thing that American colleges concern themselves with that is inconsistent with their academic mission. There are loads of other things (e.g. college athletics, expensive gyms and dorms for the students, perks for worthless admins, funding of education departments, funding of (most) university police departments, etc.).
I am curious about your opinion on this. a) Would you agree that diversity of points of view contributes to learning and the pursuit of truth? b) Would you agree that there is a correlation between race/ethnicity and points of view?
If you agree with both points, is there at least some value for racial diversity in higher education?
I agree it's not the only type of diversity that should be pursued, but it seems to be a proxy for diversity in multiple things, not just points of view (experiences, socioeconomic background, proportion of population historically underrepresented in higher ed, trying to achieve more equality of opportunity, even ways of thinking).
No, that's doubly wrong.
They don't track it. If they actually wanted an ethnically diverse class, they would require every applicant to state his or her ethnicity. (Or would at least inquire about it.) Otherwise, how could they know whether the "white" segment of their class is all WASPs or a mixture of people of Arab, Slovak, Norwegian, and Italian background, not to mention a mixture of Mormons, Orthodox Jews, Lutherans, Catholics, and Scientologists? Merely allowing someone to identify as such if that person wishes does not allow the school to tailor its admissions decisions.
And even if they did "care about" it: again, tracking it for marketing purposes does not mean tracking it for admissions purposes.
IIRC, this exact question got asked and answered.
Not all of the diversity dimensions are problems. They don't have to do anything to end up with religious diversity. It just happens statistically. So they track it, to make sure that actually remains true over time. But they don't need to focus on it during the admissions process.
And if they see a gap developing in their admissions levels of some subgroup, say, Asian Catholics from the South, they can tell their admissions officers the next year to look especially for Asian Catholics from the South. It doesn't have to be all precisely tracked as admissions are occurring.
They can't look for Asian Catholics from the South unless they track whether applicants (and admittees) are Asian, Catholic, and from the South. (They do, of course, track two of those things. But since they don't ask about religion, they have no way to balance that as admissions are occurring.
So, for purposes of diverse admissions are American citizens, immigrants and foreign nationals considered equally?
Foreign students are not classified by race.
This is what my undergraduates "discover" when they start looking at race classifications. In short: Yes, valid points, but arbitrariness in racial/ethnic classifications is inevitable. That universities fail because they are not consistent is a very lawyerly point, but it is lame. Arbitrariness in this question comes with the territory, as government demographers and statisticians have known since the first census, in 1790. That’s why they changed criteria many times since then.
Fuzziness around the edges is an unavoidable feature of race/ethnic classifications. The law dealt with this fuzziness, again, since the first census in 1790. There is nothing new about this other than it is more complicated now, like many things are more complicated than in 1790. The solution is not necessarily to drop race altogether, like the solution to fuzziness around gender, location of commercial transactions, "media" practices, matters of national security, and so on is not to drop the concepts altogether. An argument about dropping race as a criteria cannot be based on difficulty measuring it "objectively" (from a phenotypical or biological point of view, which seems to be the only point of view Volokh is thinking of) but about the whole concept not being important, however you measure it.
If the lawyers for Harvard/UNC knew anything about race/ethnic classification (and I bet they prepped for it) they would answer Volokh’s question with some form of “So? Of course race classifications are arbitrary.” Then they would go on to defend the universities’ prerogative to use that arbitrariness in a way most consistent with the goals of diversity in higher education. Regardless of the merits of the argument, that's the case they would need to make, not that their classification is objectively perfect. (At least it is consistent with government official classifications, which I guess counts for something.)
Easily. The whole point of the laws is that one may not take race (or national origin) into consideration when making certain decisions (employment, admission to college). If the person believes that "unicorn people" is a race, and denies admission to college on that basis, the law has been violated. Even if you or I believe that "unicorn people" is not a race.
How would you enable laws that racially discriminate, without classifying some people by race?
Remember the words of the 14th amendment: "No state shall... nor shall any state"; The 14th amendment only prohibits discrimination by government, NOT the private sector.
There's a serious question whether the federal government actually legitimately has the power to prohibit racial discrimination by private entities. States, of course, would.
And, yes, it's a great irony that laws prohibiting private racial discrimination almost inevitably foster government racial discrimination. Which requires racial classifications to enable.
First of all, I would not enforce laws against racial discrimination by private (non-governmental) entities, I'd repeal them.
As for racial discrimination by the government, I am not sure we really need an elaborate government-enforced racial classification system (like the one we currently maintain) to combat this phenomenon.
That the system you set up to try to measure racism itself affects that which you're trying to measure. How else does the observer effect work in any context?
So? The Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment by its terms only applies against the states. If a state bans race discrimination, it's complying with the 14th Amendment. If it allows race discrimination, it's violating the 14th Amendment.
No.
They passed relief bills specifically for “Freedmen and refugees”; That the Freedmen were essentially exclusively black did not make said laws “for blacks specifically and exclusively”, as said laws didn’t do anything for you if you were a black who hadn’t been a slave to begin with, as was the case for many Northern blacks.
No. It was for freed slaves. Not the same thing factually or legally. There were free blacks in the North that could not benefit from those bills.
"also pass relief bills for blacks specifically and particularly?"
No -- for Freedmen -- former slaves.
Free Blacks were excluded from benefit.
"Didn’t the same Congress that put forth the 14th Amendment also pass relief bills for blacks specifically and particularly?"
Probably not, but who cares? The 14th Amendment doesn't apply to the Feds.
The Equal Protection Clause applies to the states not the feds. If we’re going to speculate on why, maybe the feds trusted themselves to discriminate “responsibly.” Whatever the reason, the feds gave themselves a free pass – “we can be racist but you states can’t.” The most obvious example being the racist naturalization laws which excluded Asians (the Reconstruction Congress belatedly allowed African immigrants to be naturalized).
By the definition since Wickard, EVERYTHING is interstate commerce. I don't have to pretend I think that definition is legitimate.
Is there any evidence that it is so?
The act of hyperfocusing on racial classifications and divisions in order to measure them makes it difficult for people to then stop focusing on them.
Not really sure how you think measuring traffic violations via roadside data (whatever that even means) is comparable. Is this a sincere line of questioning? It really doesn't seem that difficult of a concept.
Yes. See above.
Yes.
Here's a simple test. If you would be outraged if the principals were reversed, you should be at least troubled now. To this specific case, how would you react to a scholarship program that explicitly advertised itself as open to whites-only? How long do you think such a program would last before being labeled a racist, white-supremacist organization?
"Does UNCF help only African Americans?"
"Not at all. UNCF’s member HBCUs admit students without reference to race or ethnicity."
https://uncf.org/pages/facts-and-questions
“Though founded to address funding inequities in education resources for African Americans, UNCF-administered scholarships are open to all ethnicities; the great majority of recipients are still African-American.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCF
"If a company interviewed five hundred blacks and five whites and hired only the five whites in your world there couldn’t even be an investigation into what might be going on."
Stop being a clown. I said the govt. can look into the decision-maker's motivation, which is the whole point of these laws. Racists do categorize people, and one can focus on racist attitudes when one is enforcing a law.
Same thing happens when an adult poses as a child on-line to catch child abusers. What's important is that the perp thinks he's chatting with a 12--year-old, not that the person is really a 45-year-old investigator.
"Also, some anti-discrimination laws, such as the VRA, explicitly call for analysis using racial Census data."
And that is precisely what is being objected to here.
Yes, why don't you prove that freed blacks in the North were the beneficiaries of these laws.
Why not?
Dunno. Are the hundred people conservative because they're, for example, Mormons? Substitute the unstated confounding variable of your choice into Krychek's hypo.
Brett, this is a strawman. Commerce clause jurisprudence is a thing that exists. Also in the Civil Rights realm. Read up on it sometime.
You argue against the law that is, not your simplistic take on what you wish to argue against, because you don't want to read the cases.
Here's the thing you don't want to accept. There are those, like myself, who honestly believe Wickard was correctly decided.
Yes. Not because it advances our plot for world domination, but just because we think so. So your pronouncements based on your opinion - that's all it is - that the decision was wrong are actually nothing but your opinions.
Why does that matter? A subset of blacks is still a set of blacks.
You're arguing freedmen were just thought of in a color-blind fashion?!
The law is here:
http://www.freedmen.umd.edu/fbact.htm
Too long to post it all, but by it terms the law created "a bureau of refugees, freedmen, and abandoned lands, to which shall be committed, as hereinafter provided, the supervision and management of all abandoned lands, and the control of all subjects relating to refugees and freedmen from rebel states,"
So it only applied in the South, and only to refugees and freedmen. ("Refugees" later refers to "loyal refugees," which means white Southerners who were loyal to the Union and were forced to flee.)
What's the confounding variable re: Hispanics?
No, he is not arguing that. He is arguing that the law was not targeted racially but to a status — a freed slave. Everyone knew that slavery, considered an evil practice in the North, was racially based. The remedy for that was not race-based but status-history based — being a former slave (or freedman, as the language was used in the statute.)
Instead of making strawman arguments, why don't you address what is actually being asserted.
(The equivalent today would be socio-economic based affirmative action, which many conservatives have called for. )
None of that indicates it was colorblind. A moment's thought on implementation would reveal that race had to be part of it.
Nice examples you pointed to, to support your claim.
Hispanic isn't a race any more than Latino is a race.
Do you have a couple of account? You switched to third person here for some reason.
Anyhow, no one was looking for white dude freedmen. The law, as actually implemented, was not race neutral. Law, both Constitutional and statutory, takes actual implementation into account - legal analysis can't just laser-focus on the text (which neither you nor I have seen but I think it's not important) and ignore all else.
That "Hispanics" can range from blacker than the Ace of spades to whiter than the driven snow?
Because the claim was that the laws were passed “for blacks specifically and particularly”.
I specifically cited, and then linked to, the Freedman's bureau bill, which rather clearly does NOT condition anything on race.
It's your turn.
I'm not aware of any such laws, but I'm certainly not going to pretend to have an encyclopedic knowledge of every enactment that Congress made.
Why don't you provide an example of one of the laws you're thinking of?
Where is this evidence?
Queen of Bullshit and Obfuscation, as always.
And that reminds me of the old joke about why do we have Father's Day and Mother's Day but not Children's Day. Answer: Because every day is children's day.
If you're white, you already start out with so many advantages, that it's really kind of petty to object to something like the UNCF.
Gah, you are infuriating, you know that?
The language was color blind. Yeah, I suppose if some white dude had shown up at a Freedman’s bureau office and claimed to be a Freedman, they’d have demanded some pretty extensive proof that he’d REALLY been a slave. If he could provide it, by the terms of the act he’d have been covered. And such cases probably did come up, because thanks to slave masters having sex with their slaves, some of the latter generation of slaves were pretty darned pale, if you know what I mean.
Look, if a serial killer targets left handed red heads, the police are not discriminating on the basis of handedness or hair color in going after him. The racial discrimination here was on the part of the Southern slave owners, NOT the North.
I actually linked to the law below.
Since all freedmen from rebel states were black, I don’t know what you mean that implementation was not color blind. To qualify for help, you had to be a freed slave from a rebel state. A white person who tried to claim that status would be laughed at, because everyone then-alive understood the history. That’s not a product of implementation but of the history of U.S. slavery in the years prior to the Civil War.
Northern, free blacks did not qualify and were not helped, as they were not thought to need any special help. Just as today I think Barack Obama’s daughters do not need and do not deserve a leg up in college admission or employment, even if other black people under different circumstances might deserve it.
And not, I don't have two accounts. I thought you were addressing Brett Bellmore.
Not if you're a Left Handed White, just find me one playing Third Base, Shortstop, Second Base, or Catcher in MLB (or minors, College)
Frank
“If you’re white, you already start out with so many advantages”.
That’s a massive generalization. For instance, it’s not at all true if you’re white and poor.
This insistence on putting people into buckets - any buckets - ends up creating horribly incorrect beliefs and opinions.
YEs, this distinction seems to escape both him and QA. Bad people are racist. Good people can cure (or at least try to remedy) that without acting racist, by focusing on the fact that the victims were treated badly.
the reconstruction congress passed laws to help the newly freed slaves - because they were newly freed slaves, not because of their race. Very important distinction which blows a huge hole in your argument.
Would I care to wager that they never, ever, even once, mentioned race?
No, of course not. I’m not an idiot, and I don’t think they were perfect.
I’d merely point out that mostly they were at pains not to.
Now, go ahead, and show us this outlier legislation that you're holding in reserve as a "gotcha!".
I already put up one that shows they didn't, although Sarcastro still insists it was.
Care to put up another one? To be clear, it has to have benefitted blacks (or Negros, as they were then called) qua blacks, regardless of their social or economic status, or whether they were former slaves, or had been born free (say in a Northern state). A rich black in New York (and there were a few of those) could benefit from such a law.
Can you produce such a law?
Bernard, I can read, it seems you are having trouble doing so. There was a debate right here as to whether the FBA was such a law. And QA refuses to take a position on that. So I don't trust her to come up with such a law, instead of coming up with something else that is then claimed to be such a law.
QA -- I will take your bet. I am not too proud to admit I was wrong. But only on the condition that I can review the law and decide if it really fits the criteria, or you are just blowing smoke. To review, the law must be: (a) passed by the Reconstructionist Congress into law and (b) benefit blacks qua blacks (or Negroes qua Negroes) without regard to their status as former slaves, their socioeconomic status, or their location within the U.S. But if I conclude you are blowing smoke, I will say so and mute you.
Sure thing Bozo.
Then an example shouldn't be hard to provide.
Yeah, I'm going with insincere at this point.
Very important distinction which you repetitive refuse to acknowledge - which blows your argument apart.
freed slaves vs blacks - very distinct difference for purposes of the reconstruction era laws that were passed.
On March 3, 1865, Congress passed “An Act to establish a Bureau for the Relief of Freedmen and Refugees” to provide food, shelter, clothing, medical services, and land to displaced Southerners, including newly freed African American.
Queen - note the distinction - which you repetitively deny
Such a cunninglinguist.
That'd be a really white Spick.
Yeah, speaking of Peanuts, silly me for playing Lucy and the football with you. Lesson learned for the next few months.
"Demonstrated" like a chess-playing pigeon, absolutely. Enjoy the strutting and shitting.
This is basically the same point Morgan Freeman and others have famously made in different ways, hopefully everyone has already seen this clip more than once.
Morgan Freeman: You’re going to relegate my history to a month?
Mike Wallace: Oh, come on.
Morgan Freeman: What do you do with yours? Which month is white history month?
Mike Wallace: *scoffs* Well . . . et, uh, I’m Jewish.
Morgan Freeman: Ok. Which month is Jewish history month?
Mike Wallace: There isn’t one.
Morgan Freeman: Oh . . . oh. Why not? Do you want one?
Mike Wallace: No, no.
Morgan Freeman: I don’t either. I don’t want a Black history month. Black history is American history.
Mike Wallace: How are we going to get rid of racism until we . . .
Morgan Freeman: Stop talking about it! I’m gonna stop calling you a white man. And I’m gonna ask you to stop calling me a black man. I know you as Mike Wallace, you know me as Morgan Freeman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2RwJlQdzpE
Before I take the bet, do you agree that the Freedmen’s Bureau Act which I linked to is not an example of such a law? Because otherwise we are talking past one another.
Right, you are dodging and we are talking past one another. You need to produce a law that specifically benefitted blacks, regardless of their status as former slaves or economic status or geographic location. Until you agree to that, no bet.
Because prior history shows that you will produce something that you think qualifies but doesn't. Sarcastro thinks the FB law is a color-based one, and you have refused to take a position on that. I can "be a man" but not a chump.
For Pete's sake. Can you or the others read?
QA is alleging that the Reconstruction Congress passed bills specifically benefitting Blacks.
That the Congress alsopassed the Freedman's bill says nothing about the truth of that assertion.
You are starting to sound like the people defending Tucker Carlson's clips of Jan. 6, on the grounds that they showed that the insurrectionists were not engaging in criminal conduct continually.
I guess that's because you are some of those people.
"Operation Wetback Dude""?? is that sort of like "Secret Agent Man"? would make a cool tune,
"Operation Wetback Dude, Operation Wetback Dude, they've given you a Green Card, and takin' away your FICA..."
OK, needs some work, Weird Al didn't write "Eat it" in one sitting
Frank
The sun doesn't rise, you stupid bint. They obviously don't have astronomy classes in that school for carpet-munching that you attended.
So you were that old toothless hag that everyone called Granny. Do you still live out behind the dumpster? And have you done your astronomy homework yet, oh slatternly one?
you want some "Figures"??? (rhymes with...) Following is from that Race-ist Hate Group, "The Sentencing Project" founded by former AC/DC guitarist Malcolm Young
1: Black Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at nearly 5 times the rate of white Americans.
2: Nationally, one in 81 Black adults in the U.S. is serving time in state prison. Wisconsin leads the nation in Black imprisonment rates; one of every 36 Black Wisconsinites is in prison.
3: In 12 states, more than half the prison population is Black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia.
4: Seven states maintain a Black/white disparity larger than 9 to 1: California, Connecticut, Iowa, Maine, Minnesota, New Jersey, and Wisconsin (Except for Iowa, all voted "Blue" in 2020)
Frank "Easy as 3.1416"
Funny how they gave all these Freed Slaves "40 acres and a Mule" and now just find me an Afro-Amurican with either.
I know, they sold them and bought lottery tickets, freedom ain't free.
So where did all of those "Pigford" farmers come from?
Are you reading an 'all' into that statement?
queen - how about the civil rights act of 1866 which applied to all - with language consistent with 14A
Queen - your sh.. is getting old -
Brett & I have cited the laws multiple times and you continue to act like a jerk even when proven wrong
So you're asking them to prove a negative by posting something that doesn't exist, rather than you providing something that you claim does exist?
Reading comprehension problems?
Queen's not asking them to prove their assertion, just to put their reputation where their mouth is. It's certainly easy to disprove a negative, and Queen stands ready to do so. The fact that Joe, Bored, Brett et al aren't willing to stand behind their wild assertions is all you need to know about how seriously you should take those guys.
queen - man up -
the info is from the US Senate website -
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/generic/FreedmensBureau.htm
Dallas, it's not being denied, its being addressed.
You, as you do, found an argument you think is right and cling to it for dear life regardless of what anyone else says about it. And you get supercilious and insulting when people point out you're using an old talking point.
I've long ago given up dislodging you, but you are making a distinction without a difference. If all freedmen were blacks, and Congress knew they would be, then it was a program Congress passed directed at blacks.
Queen almathea 29 seconds ago
Flag Comment Mute User
joe, you goof, the FB is not the only law the Congress that passed the 14th enacted. "
Queen is getting pissed when he is wrong
Freedmans bill
14A
civil rights act of 1866
civil rights act of 1866 (re-enacted in 1870)
Queen - time to cut back on your revisionist histroy
Queen almathea 4 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
What is “wrong” that I said joe?
"Here’s again my call to test who is wrong here."
Queen wants to be the umpire and change the rules
I gave you the 4 biggies - is that not good enough for you
Time to for you to grow up and be an adult
Replying to Joe Dallas:
...But being a "queen" is so much more fun.
...and you have yet to point to one of them.
How do you think they checked for qualification to the program? You admit that whites and blacks were not treated equally, in all functional respects, and yet hide behind a formal classification right after. That's not how legal analysis works!
A subset of blacks is a set of blacks. This was a law aimed at a set of blacks. Just like a law aimed at all black afros would be seen today as having a racial target.
Bored Lawyer,
Sarcastro also thinks that if anything is ever done that puts the interests of current Americans over foreigners or potential immigrants, such a thing is necessarily racist, because after all, a slim majority of Americans are currently white, and such a proportion does not meet some unknown platonic ideal of racial composition, so therefore it is racist to do something that benefits Americans as a group, or to say that representative governments in general should always put the interests of their constituents above that of others.
Do you really want to try and reason with such nonsense? This is the same form of logical issue we have here. But leftist thought is impervious to basic logic and reason.
"Since all freedmen from rebel states were black" - white slaves were rare, but it isn't true that _all_ of those freed from slavery were black.
Even one example is sufficient to prove that, and the law in question would have applied to the below white man. According to the Historical Society of Pennsylvania:
During the 'War Between the States,' in 1863, a correspondent of the Cincinnati (Ohio) Gazette (reprinted in the Philadelphia Daily Evening Bulletin), related that within the 78th Ohio Infantry Regiment, was a man who was taken, "as a runaway slave," into the Union lines in Tennessee. His features and skin color denoted "Anglo-Saxon" ancestry, while his eyes were also "blue, his lips thin, and his hair light." His former Tennessee master had admitted to Colonel Mortimer D. Leggett, "that there was not a drop of African blood in the veins of his slave," and that he had purchased the man in Richmond, Kentucky years before, and that he'd been "sold into slavery, out of some charitable institution to which he had been committed as a vagrant."
Queen - Care to actually read any reconstruction era laws passed by congress. - Of course not - that would destroy your mistaken beliefs
Read the freedmans bill
Go for it Queenie. Your original claim was this.
"Didn’t the same Congress that put forth the 14th Amendment also pass relief bills for blacks specifically and particularly"
I challenge you. I believe you are incorrect. I do not believe the 39th Congress of the United States passed a bill that was "specifically and particularly for Blacks".
It must be the 39th Congress, because that is the Congress that put forth the 14th Amendment. The bill must bill for "Blacks" (or "African Americans") specifically and particularly. It can not be for "Freedmen" or "All races" or any other synonym or allusion akin to those that been repeatedly noted by others. It must be specifically and particularly only for "Blacks" or "African Americans" within the text of the bill that was passed by both houses.
If you can link to the text of such a passed bill, I will say "I am Armchair Lawyer, woefully misinformed about this fact"
Deal? Now go ahead. Since you're so confident,
2 hours later....no response.
12 hours later...no response. huh.
No, he's not.
DR Ed - why would you expect queen to actually read and understand the Freedman's bill - That would require some intellectual honesty .
Re Operation Wetback.
So an effort to expel illegal aliens is racist?
I didn't say commerce clause jurisprudence didn't exist. It's just that it has about as much legitimacy as the Slaugherhouse cases; It's outcome oriented judging by a Court that wanted to give the federal government the general authority to regulate anything it wanted that the Constitution deliberately DIDN'T give it.
I will not pretend today's commerce clause jurisprudence is legitimate.
How do you avoid getting dizzy from all the spinning you do?
QA: See above. I took your bet, on condition I get to evaluate what you produce. And if you turn out to be blowing smoke, I will say so.
Now question for you -- why do you feel you need to make a "bet" as opposed to just citing whatever law you think proves your point? Posters here cite things all the time, sometimes with links, without making bets. Do you have some unmet psychological need that you are trying to satisfy?
No, no sensible person would think that a few years of legal equality would translate into social equality, even for a group a hundred years out of slavery.
But legal equality is all they were ever legally entitled to, social equality was up to them. Because anything beyond legal equality required depriving somebody else of that equality, and we are ALL entitled to legal equality, even those of us whose ancestors were less recently slaves.
That just says that the racism was justified in 1947, not that they weren't racists.
I agree with that statement, by the way. The UNCF was justified and useful in 1947. Its utility and its explicitly racist approach is less defensible today.
Is the Congressional Black (Democrat) Caucus racist?
This is stupid, though par for the course for you. Even Scalia agreed that race conscious measures were appropriate to remediate past discrimination.
‘social equality was up to them’
No, social equality was and is up to society.
And if I'm wrong, I'll make a donation to Students for Fair Admissions.
Maybe it only "benefitted blacks" but only incidentally so. It wasn't "for blacks."
"I will not pretend today’s commerce clause jurisprudence is legitimate."
Dear Pretender,
Reality does not depend on what you do or do not pretend.
You sure did say it doesn't exist: "By the definition since Wickard, EVERYTHING is interstate commerce."
This is not true, either in reality nor in BrettLaw.
You may wish it were true so BrettLaw looked less insane by comparison, but it is not true.
Queen - at least 5 people have pointed out that you are wrong and specifically why you are wrong, including disregarding the clear distinction of freedman vs blacks. Yet you persist in a jerk in your arrogance.
No, and you have yet to provide an example to the contrary.
Every accusation is a confession. Anybody have any actual studies to document the claims your side is making, or is this just the typical crickets when you guys are asked to produce evidence?
I had the same thought.
"Typically, you address evidence being presented." [Typical reply from Sarcastr0 that somehow, incredibly, manages to be both unbearably sophomoric and laughably low IQ and nonsensical at the same time.]
Me: Wait, evidence? What evidence? I must have missed something. *scrolls up, finds nothing*
"Are these studies badly done, hoaxes, irrelevant, or are you just being unpleasant to cover up for not having much of an argument here?"
WHAT STUDIES?!
Some things are well known enough, you can do your own homework, ML. Unless you're going to deny Hispanic discrimination exists, or that any studies on it exist, then you're just trolling.
What's your claim, Sarcastro? Are there studies that you've determined aren't badly done, hoaxes, or irrelevant, or are you just assuming that they exist? If you've done the work to evaluate these studies, surely you can name a few?
Maine is very easy to explain — it is OUT OF STATE drug dealers who smuggle drugs into Maine and then get caught doing so, and/or killing people in drug-related disputes.
It’s a dozen cities in MA, CT, & NY that the overwhelming majority of these individuals are coming from — former Governor LePage asked prosecutors to send him the arrest cover sheet of every major drug arrest and he put them into loose-leaf binders and he then proceeded to count both buy race (from the mug shots) and residence (which was listed). And MS-13 doesn’t admit into membership White kids with DownEast accents.
It’s like the New Jersey State Police — they issue a disproportionate number of tickets to Black motorists — but an objective study indicated that an even greater disproportionate number should have been ticketed for speeding.
The demographics of a prison should reflect the demographics of those who are committing crimes worthy of incarceration and in Maine, for reasons of geology, drugs are now landing in other states and being brought into the state.
"Legitimacy" is not a natural property, like mass or charge. It's more of an opinion.
All else being equal, whites start out with significant advantages. If you're white and poor, you're still likely to do better than someone who's black and poor.
You say that because you happen to be cool with depriving people you don't care for of legal equality.
There IS no "society" this help can be at the expense of. There are just other people, who you'd disadvantage in order to provide advantages to the people you want to help.
Queen - Cut the sh... and grow up
You continue to intentionally mispresent the what laws were enacted.
Each of us have provided numerous examples demonstrating your intentionally disceptive characterization, including why your assertion is deception - yet you persist.
Time for you to act like an adult.
To say that the sun rises in the east is not to make a statement about astronomy, you ignorant cunt.
The stupid bitch QE was making a point that some things are obviously true. The sun rising in the east is not true, so it's not a good example. So, 'away, you starvelling, you elf-skin, you dried neat’s-tongue, bull’s-pizzle, you stock-fish'; go back to giving blowjobs to lepers behind the outhouse.
"The sun rising in the east is not true"
Of course it's true, you cretinous mooncalf. If you think that it's a statement about astronomy to talk about the sun rising and the sun setting why is it that the FAA and weather reporting agencies refer to the time of sunrise and sunset, you oozing, pus-filled fistula on the anus of the white supremacist right?
QA, I do apologize to your cuntiness for getting your name wrong, but, like so many Canadians, you can't even fucking spell your own name anyway. And, from your propensity to toss out 'yo mama' jokes, I can only assume that your stupidity is at least in part the result of your decades-long crack problem (though genetics doesn't help either, does it?).
And StellaLink still can't manage to understand the difference between a metaphorical use of language which can only be called true in a conventional sense, but is, strictly speaking, not true.
The sun does not rise, or are you one of the last of the followers of Ptolemy?
I do like the 'mooncalf' reference, but, if I am an 'oozing, pus-filled fistula on the anus of the white supremacist right', you should be pleased with me insofar as I would be causing such folks serious difficulties. It would be like me calling you a monkey pox lesion on the penis of the deadbeat, criminal, pervert, and baby-killing left (which I would take as a compliment).
Dear Plagiarist,
As I have explained to you several times, you wedge, to say that the sun rises in the east is not to make a claim about astronomy; it is a claim about appearences. It is to say that daily at sunrise, the sun appears in the east (sort of). It is to say that the relationship between the earth and the sun in our solar system and the direction of the rotation of the earth on its axis causes the sun to appear to us in the morning in the east. It is shorthand, call it a metaphor if it helps you imagine that your little pecker is hard, for describing that which is true.
So, 'the sun appears in the east (sort of)' is your defense. I need say no more on this topic, as you have resigned the field. Now you can go back to autofellating to pictures of RuPaul.
Bad people are racist. Good people can cure (or at least try to remedy) that without acting racist
If you’ve been reduced to arguing telepathic strawmen, you’ve lost the argument. I've said nothing about the policymakers, don't be a child.
As DMN noted above, even Scalia allowed that remedies for past discrimination could not be colorblind.
It’s not some simplistic view that not all racial classifications are bigoted laws. It is actually rather simplistic to insist a one size fits all 'all these things are bad' without bothering to examine otherwise.
Even worse, I know you have examined. You've debated affirmative action on it's merits, legal, practical, and moral. So short-circuiting the argument with insults like this is when you can and have done better is a bad show.
All things are never equal. That’s why you have to put people in buckets so you can simplify and avoid complexity.
Poor white = poor black = poor Hispanic = probably fucked.
Blacks suffer poverty more frequently (or at least they used to) so they’re more disadvantaged in that aspect, but there ain’t no poor of any race that has anything that approximates privilege.
" If you’re white and poor, you’re still likely to do better than someone who’s black and poor."
That's an interesting comment Krychek, so I looked into it more in depth. This is something called the inter-generational economic mobility. Basically, the idea is this. If you grow up, and you're in the 20th percentile for income, when you grow up, on average where do you end up in income level? 20th percentile? Higher? Lower?
So, if you're white, on average, you'll end up in the 43rd percentile or so. If you're black, only the 28th percentile. And if you're Asian (US-born parents), around the 47th percentile or so. (And yes, if you're born into a high percentile income level, like 90th percentile, on average you'll drop, no matter your race)
But here's where it gets interesting. This effect is entirely due to black MEN. Black women, on the other hand, will end up with more intergenerational mobility than white women (by a small margin).
There are also significant differences regionally. African American intergenerational mobility is highest in the Great Plains and interestingly enough...the Southeast US, while it is at its lowest in the industrial cities of the Midwest.
So, in looking at this data, we do need to take a look at some of the policies and issues that are driving this low intergenerational mobility, rather than simply assume it's "racism." Especially given the dramatic gender divide, and the regional data.
Yes, and no.
You light a house on fire, and then turn the hose half on your house and half on the house you lit on fire.
Treat all houses equally.
You cry about the law, but you elevate the law well above it's actual power. A colorblind law over a not colorblind society is locking in that society.
But as I recall, you're good with separate but equal so long as it's actually equal. So actual experience of nonwhite people isn't much for you.
'Black people have to remain an underclass because if they don't they'll be depriving white people of opportunities that are rightfully theirs.'
...You just acknowledged intersectionality, and decide lean on Marxist class conflict to blow it away and say economics is all.
That's...quite a take.
That’s progressive pseudo intellectual gibberish.
If you’re insisting that poor whites are buried in privilege, you’re either a liar or an idiot.
My mother in law grew up on a farm with German speaking parents and no electricity or plumbing. You’re saying she had more privilege than Obama’s daughters.
Putting people in buckets leads to ridiculous conclusions like that because it allows no differentiation within the bucket
Arrange your buckets by socioeconomic status instead of race. It’s every bit as valid and leads to a completely different conclusion.
Sarcatro is apparently still drunk from last night. How does one 'decide lean'? Do you work in an HR department (because that would explain your defense of DIE garbage and your use of trendy but meaningless terms like 'intersectionality')?
‘My mother in law grew up on a farm with German speaking parents and no electricity or plumbing. You’re saying she had more privilege than Obama’s daughters.’
Yes. It’s a very specific TYPE of privelege that has nothing to do with class or wealth. You mother in law is very unlikely to encounter anyone who regards her as subhuman, or stupid, or violent, or promiscuous, or dirty, just because of the colour of her skin. Obama’s kids are. The ony equivalence would be if your mother in law was Jewish.
There was a very specific type of hate directed at Michelle Obama that even Hilary Clinton didn’t get, and they hated Clinton more. In fact there was no particular reason to hate Michelle Obama at all, but they still did. The Obamas might be more insulated from it, but it’s there.
If you’re insisting that poor whites are buried in privilege
No one insisted that.
Your argument seems to be thus: socioeconomic class is competing with race as a determiner what people will need to deal with. And class is so important that it obviates racial concerns.
But in reality there is no competition - it is yes and.
Some who are deeply into Marxism argue class consciousness is the only consciousness. I find them, and you, not really thinking it through.
Will Baude's CRT podcasts go through this. White women have challenge black women do not, as well.
It's not a a single continuum, nor is it an oppression Olympics, it's an understanding how group classifications are part of an individual's identity and experience.
The question is, how many intersectional Pokemon points can I come up?
Listening to podcasts on CRT (Contemptable Rancid Twats) truly jumps the shark.
After all, Monty Python did this so much better: 'Come see the violence inherent in the system!! Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!!'
Sarcastro - you don’t have to be Marxist to notice that growing up poor makes life much more difficult. And you can make that observation without subscribing to Marxist solutions.
But you’re foolish to think it’s all race, which the so-called woke do. Maybe Krychek does? Rich black kids grow up with a head start on and more privilege than poor kids of any race. Denying that is silly. Seems the issue isn’t race.
No, no one thinks it’s all race. I just explained to you twice how it’s not all race or all class. Listen to what I’m saying not what you make up for me to say!!!
You, well you above argued it’s all poverty.
With your equals sign bit.
That’s the Marxist take, and it’s wrong,
.
"Yes. It’s a very specific TYPE of privelege that has nothing to do with class or wealth."
Right, and the type is "fictional".
You can't win this argument. All that is necessary to prove you wrong is a citation to any obscure federal legislation that satisfies QA's assertion. Bet that QA has one queued up.
At the same time, there are so many laws that harm blacks, like those outlawing rape, murder, and other violent things that blacks seem to like to do.
Joe, I'm starting to think you're actually retarded. If you don't want to take Queen's bet, just ghost. Either you're pretending not to understand what's happening over and over again, which is retarded, or you actually don't understand what's happening, which is retarded. Either way, it's not looking good for your mental capacitance.
Joe,
You are being amazingly obtuse.
Talk about telepathic strawmen! Now with special Oracular powers!
Your response is incoherent, even as it fails to address anything Brett actually said.
Stupid analogies and deceptive uses of "you" to push idiotic arguments in favor of 'equity' and racial discrimination reveal, again, how dishonest you are.
There is no such thing as 'society'. It's a convenient shorthand to refer to people (including you) but it is not a physical thing. 'Society' does not do things. 'Society' is not responsible for things. People (including you) do things, and are responsible for acts. When you can point to a specific person, and show how the law protects their 'bad' acts, then you have an argument. But as long as you insist on trying shortcut your required evidence by blaming a figure of speech, you utterly fail.
You seem very angry for someone who introduced what I deem to be an irrelevant issue. (or maybe you have leftover anger from your quarrels with other commenters)
Of course the Congress which passed the 14th Amendment passed racist laws, as did the Reconstruction Congress more generally (see the naturalization laws)
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/176256
They could do this for the obvious reason that they exempted themselves from the Equal Protection Clause.
QA thinks that she is brilliant because she found a law with the word 'negro' in it, when she has been told her life by her race-grifting pimps that the white man erased the negro from history.
'It’s a convenient shorthand to refer to people'
Yes. People living together. See? Society does exist.
You've said before you think social science isn't a real field.
Well, you sure are showing it here!
Say, what are your thoughts about the Electoral College? Are states just a shorthand for people, making it a pretty bad system?
Actually an excellent response.
As noted, the bad faith characterization is "you light a house on fire". Sorry moron, I don't accept your projection of collective guilt. I haven't committed arson and in fact despise arsonists.
In fact, I do treat all houses equally. I don't believe in arson at all. It's you and your ilk that insist because peoples houses were torched in the past, you need to equalize things and torch the houses of a different set of innocent people to make society "better" and "more equal".
“Also, some anti-discrimination laws, such as the VRA, explicitly call for analysis using racial Census data.”
And that is precisely what is being objected to here.
Why? If we suspect Black voters are being discriminated against then why shouldn't we use that data to help investigate?
Does Jesse Jackson write your copy? If it rhymes, it mimes. I believe that QA is what people in the service industry call a stupid fucking Canadian.
About time for this blog’s fans to claim that the Volokh Conspiracy is not a racist bigotfest.
No.
You can’t go outside the buckets, AL. It makes it too hard to think and, more importantly, to blame.
“ It’s not a a single continuum, nor is it an oppression Olympics, it’s an understanding how group classifications are part of an individual’s identity and experience.”
Wise words.
That’s a fancier more eloquent way of saying what I’m saying. Krycheck compared a box to a box. The intersectionality/woke/CRT/anti-racist people do the same thing - everyone belongs in a box and the story for everyone in a particular box is the same.
I’m saying there’s so much variation within those boxes that the boxes themselves are meaningless. It’s not a single continuum.
Um, Sarc, luv -- you just approvingly quoted yourself from an hour earlier.
Did you even notice that? Are you the same you? This is fascinating.
Humans treat people differently via heuristics due to the group they’re part of. Some conscious, some unconscious, some just via assumptions institutions humans set up make.
You can state that people’s individual variances swamp these effects and mean that demographics don’t matter, but that flies in the fact of history and current experience and science.
But Sarcastro has proven that he/she/it knows nothing about history or science, and there is just so much unintelligible nonsense in this post that it's obvious that it is drunk again.
Take a look: 'Humans treat people differently via heuristics due to the group they’re part of.' This sentence is either written by a monkey or by an education professor, but monkeys are generally more intelligent (pay attention, QA, this is ad hominem, you moron). And then we get the silly pseudo-Freudian appearance of 'unconscious' assumptions (used by people without arguments to accuse their opponents of some sort of unprovable bad faith). Finally, we have strangely reified institutions making assumptions.
You really can't get more opaque than this.
Yes, I particularly love “some just via assumptions institutions humans set up make”!
He really is going ’round the bend, it seems.
Not sure what’s hard for you to understand about systemic racism being a thing, LoB.
-Sentencing bias is a great example. -Baude’s podcast talked about hospital quality being measurably lower in black neighborhoods. -Black women’s health outcomes in pregnancy. -Our system of wealth retention and taxes assumes a lot about property ownership, which even holding class equal is worse for families of color and recent immigrants.
It’s called systemic because none of it requires anyone to actually be racist. Even unconsciously so. And yet stuff is harder for nonwhites.
It’s all over the place in scholarship, if you wanted to look it up. But educating yourself doesn’t seem you jam.
I'm hard-pressed to know which of your prior meanderings this is supposed to refer to, since this very post is the only one in the entire discussion thread that uses the words "systemic racism."
The wheels are really coming off, dude.
Now you're being performatively obtuse.
The systems are institutions humans set up. The racism is in the impact of the assumptions inherent in said institutions.
I said the same thing 2 different ways; the first perhaps awkwardly but without using as much jargon.
It's "systemic" racism...except it's not systemic.
It apparently only affects black men...black women actually have advantages over white women in some metrics. It oddly affects deep northern industrial cities the most...but not the supposedly racist Southeast US.
The concept doesn't really make sense. Perhaps there's another effect going on.
Congrats on being incoherent AL. Not sure if that says anything about the actual concept you have made a hash of.
This discussion is beyond you Sarcastro. It's fine that you don't understand. You just need to comprehend that you don't understand, rather than insult that which is beyond you.
I'll go along. I'll bet you a billion dollars that you're wrong. So, lay the spade on the table, and then I will send you a check (of course, you'll have to provide me with name and address).
I suspect Black Peoples are committing crimes against other races because of discrimination, why shouldn't we use that data to help investigate??
So you're saying Drug Dealers tend to be Afro-Amurican? What are you? a Realist??
Responsibility is not the same as guilt.
But even if you reject that scenario, who lit the fire is not required for the analogy to have force.
Just as you want to spray water in the on-fire buildings, not every building equally, there is an untapped talent pool we are neglecting by letting them remain in unproductive cycles of poverty. For the sake of the nation, you should be into addressing that directly in all the modalities it appears – race, gender, class, educational background, home state, etc. etc.
Such... hubris. What, exactly, has not been tried hard enough yet?
Ahhh, walking back your initial dishonest characterization. It really makes little difference, I have never supported racial discrimination nor do I have any responsibility for it. That you need to try to sell that dishonest bill of goods says a lot about both your arguments and your personal principles.
After you walk back the dishonest motte, we get to the more defensible but fundamentally boneheaded bailey.
What incredible hubris ! The halfwit, not really understanding the system that he posits to change, concludes that if he can just point guns at the right people, he can take resources and opportunity from those he deems less worthy, redistribute them and make society a better place. You can't even produce an honest argument. Why should I believe that any rationalized crap you actually came up with would make things better ? The best we can ever do is stop the government by discriminating by race. I have zero faith in your special pleading. There are reasons we were against the racial discrimination of Jim Crow. Those are exactly the same reasons I think you are full of it.
One way, Artifex, you can tell I didn't treat it as guilt is that I wasn't talking about punishment or criminality. So no, I'm not really walking anything back, you're just oversensitive.
The rest of your comment is both incoherent and unpleasant. OK, you hate me and think I'm lying. Can't say much to that other than go be impotent on the Internet, and I'll go back to funding great science doing a job I love.
Because rewarding/penalizing an incoming freshman in 2023 will impact what happened to their parents and grandparents.
I believe a lot of them are illegal aliens from the DR.
Not sure what 2023 has to do with the UNCF's founding, but okay.
Poor Queenie, maybe some day you'll find two brain cells to rub together.
OK, "Everything is interstate commerce so long as they remember to make some ritual 'findings' about effects." Happy?
I have no doubt you think it was "correctly" decided, for some value of "correctly". Because you define "correctly decided" in terms of desirable policy, rather than the actual meaning of the Constitution.
"As DMN noted above, even Scalia allowed that remedies for past discrimination could not be colorblind."
Cite?
Remedies for past discrimination, to actually BE remedies for past discrimination, and not just racial spoils in disguise, have to be contingent on whether the past discrimination actually and relevantly effected you. That means they're not contingent on race, they're contingent on that effect.
If some bastard goes around keying cars, and out of the kindness of my heart I pay for paint jobs for all the cars that got keyed, that said bastard made a point of keying only cars owned by blacks doesn't make my generosity race based. It's "car got keyed" based.
That's the way the Freedman's bureau worked: It wasn't race based, it was "had been unfree" based.
Now, if the harm was highly correlated with race, so will the response be, even if it is entirely predicated on the harm, not the race. But if you instead base the response on race, you're going to be helping people who didn't actually suffer the harm, and probably failing to help people who did suffer the harm, because such harms are seldom 100% correlated with race in the first case, and because even where they were, their reach was not universal.
And once more, Sarcastro lies about what I’ve said. Social science is weak on the science front, and most conclusions people like to draw from it are unsupported. I’ve never said it it didn’t exist, or wasn’t real.
As for the Electoral College, it's a specific group of individuals, chosen by other individuals, to perform a specific action. Where is there an abstract concept in there? Are you really stuck unable to deal with the concept of a state as a government entity vs the people in the state's government that do specific things?
Did you somehow think that large chunks of land were walking around, selecting people to vote?
On the other hand, you fail to address the complaint – you are using ‘you’ and ‘society’ to place blame and responsibility for unspecified actions by unspecified individuals on Brett and anyone else you disagree with.
Can you actually produce an argument for equity without blaming abstract concepts?