The Volokh Conspiracy
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"Book Bans," "Social Media Censorship," and Our Tongues
One often hears school libraries' decisions to remove certain books labeled "book bans." Some object: Such removals don't actually ban the book; the book remains available at bookstores, and often at public libraries. It's just that the school system has decided not to make the book available to its students as something that the system endorses as worth reading. (Note that this argument can be independent of whether the libraries' actions violate the First Amendment; the legal question is unsettled, but independently of the legal question one might argue that such actions should still be condemned.)
One also often hears social media platforms' decisions to block certain posts, or remove certain accounts, labeled "censorship." Some object: Such actions don't actually use the law to punish speech, or even make such speech unavailable. It's just that the platform has decided not to make the book available to its users as something that the platform endorses as worth hosting. (Note that this argument can be independent of whether the platforms' actions violate the First Amendment; they likely don't, at least absent government coercion, since they aren't state action, but independently of the legal question one might argue that such actions should still be condemned.)
Here's my narrow observation for this post: One way of thinking about these controversies has to do with Justice Holmes' argument in U.S. ex rel. Milwaukee Social Democratic Publishing Co. v. Burleson (1921) against viewpoint-based restrictions on what can be mailed through the post office. (That argument was in the dissent, and was technically focused on a statutory construction question, but the Court eventually adopted it as a constitutional matter.) Holmes wrote,
The United States may give up the Post Office when it sees fit, but while it carries it on the use of the mails is almost as much a part of free speech as the right to use our tongues ….
And I take it that he was talking not just about abstract legal categories, but about the practical significance of the post office in the communications system of the day—and indeed in the intellectual lives of the people of the day.
The post office was so important, and had so long been used as a means for distributing a vast range of information, that it ought to continue as a medium where communication is largely unconstrained. This didn't have to extend to all government property; I doubt that Holmes would have said, for instance, that the ability to post things on government building walls "is almost as much a part of free speech as the right to use our tongues." But it did extend to this particular vitally important medium of communication.
I take it that the people who complain about school library book bans and social media censorship take a similar view. The use of a library (including a school library) is almost as much a part of free speech as the right to use our tongues, or at least as the right to buy those books that someone is willing to sell us. The use of Facebook or Twitter is almost as much a part of free speech as the right to use our tongues, or at least as the right to send letters to people or to publish and mail a newsletter (if you had the money to do it).
Conversely, others may disagree. The use of a school library, they might argue, has always allowed you just to see those books that the school chooses to recommend for you, as part of its discharge of its educational mission (as the librarian, principal, school board, or state legislature understands that mission to be). The use of private social media networks, they might argue, is more like the ability to get your letters to the editor published in a newspaper, something that none of us has had a right to do (whether a legal right or a de facto practical ability). It's largely a question of the social significance of the entity.
To be sure, this doesn't resolve the constitutional or legal questions. As I mentioned, it's not clear whether the First Amendment limits a school library's ability to remove books from its bookshelves based on the books' viewpoints (though it is clear that a state legislature could constrain that ability, if it wishes). The First Amendment also doesn't generally limit a social media platform's ability to remove posts (and there's of course a great deal of constitutional debate about whether Congress or a state legislature could constrain that ability). But I think it does help us understand why some people see a book ban where others just see a decision not to promote, and why some people see social media censorship where others just see a decision not to host.
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"a decision not to host" based on "recommendations" from government officials with whom the social-media company has an ongoing relationship including regular communication.
A state deciding which books to have in its school libraries is less like the Post Office and more like a state deciding which state-university presses will publish which books. IMHO.
With the Post Office, the general model was you paid your (sometimes subsidized) postage and they delivered the material. Exceptions to this general principle should be based on 1st Amendment analysis.
With a university press or a govt-school library, the general model is they single out certain books to promote, and by necessity exclude others.
I recall a case from the 1960s where at a state law school, a guy wanted to publish a law-review article criticizing Brown v. Board of Education. The law review (at least according to the complaint) rejected the article because of disagreement with the content (they supported Brown). The court said this was OK. The state was rightly or wrongly in the opinion/analysis business, and could act like it.
Of course, that begs the question whether such facilities for potential state propaganda should be so readily set up. But only icky libertarians, or at least critics of the government, would ask such questions.
There is a difference between children and adults — many differences — and I think it is reasonable to exercise discretion in what is in a children’s library as compared to what is in a library for adults.
And there are two reasons for this — first is developmental but second is that parents are REQUIRED to send you their children and hence you have a burden to them. They can say “don’t go into the that bookstore” and that is legally binding — they can use reasonable force to prevent this from happening. But they can’t do that about school — and hence the enhanced burden.
This is about removing access to non-majority viewpoints from students in the hope that those students don’t grow up more accepting of diversity than the majority.
removing access to non-majority viewpoints from students
Not the role of govt. Not the role of govt schools. Those cultural areas are strictly the role of Parents. Not govt.
No culture in English class!!
Public schools used the Bible as text books.
Freedom of speech for all.
If acceptence of different people has to be promoted in public schools, religion need the same treatment.
Um, yes?
I used the Bible as a textbook in middle school. And the story of Siddhartha.
But that’s history and anthropology class.
The point is you are going to have culture in school no matter what. Freedom of speech does not mean you get to endorse a religion in public school.
Unless that religion teaches that male and female are interchangeable, marriage has nothing to do with sex or reproduction, etc. Such religions can be taught.
. Freedom of speech does not mean you get to endorse a religion in public school.
But endorsing anal sex is so vital to our youth we must inform, and teach 8 year olds it is not only natural, but encouraged.
What eight year olds were taught this? When?
That's the job of the librarian, just as it's the job of the teachers to teach appropriately in class. No point hiring a librarian then outsourcing their job to extremist religious cranks.
No point hiring a librarian then outsourcing their job to extremist religious cranks.
Got it.
Only gay activist cranks make good librarians.
Seems like free speech for all in schools is not a true standard. Its selective. Marginalizing wide swaths of the community. Not Diverse, Not Equitable Not Inclusive.
'Only gay activist cranks make good librarians'
Probably.
It's weird. Used to be when all the Volokh Conspiracy commenters had their rare moments of accord it was when someone-or-other wanted books removed from the school system or libraries, and no-one ever had a problem calling them attempted or calls for 'bans.'
Tell us about Mein Kampf (published without editorial comment), the Kama Sutra, the Turner Diaries, and Dixon’s The Klansman.
None of these would be removed because the school librarian (one hopes) wouldn’t have selected them in the first place. Is that wrong?
School librarians follow collection development policies. They participate with others—administrators and faculty, typically—to develop the policies, but usually do not control the policies as personal preferences. They may control a minor budget to allow some book purchases at discretion, but even those purchases ought to be made, and almost always are made, with furtherance of specific educational missions in mind. The notion is ridiculous that a school librarian within an accredited school system is going to be some run-wild ideologue with personal control of the collection budget.
So they make content-based decisions? Thank you, that answers my question.
So they make content-based decisions? Thank you, that answers my question.
Margrave, if that assertion had unbounded real-world manifestations, as you seem to imply, the librarian would wield power to jeopardize the accreditation of the school. Not only is that not something usually permitted, it is nonsense to suppose school administrators would permit it often enough to worry about.
They'd lose accreditation if they rejected the Turner Diaries based on the content?
My 80% Jewish high school had a translation of Mein Kampf in the library.
I give you that there are some standards, but that's actually not a good example, being historically quite relevant.
OK, strike that off the list and tell me about the other books I mentioned.
"I give you that there are some standards"
No one here is arguing school libraries must hold infinity books, or have a 'shall shelve' rule.
People are taking issue with the current bans - and they are bans - of books that are actually well within normal discussion lines, and not really comparable to the Turner Diaries.
And no, I'm not going to give you a bright line. Obscenity isn't a bright line; mainstream isn't a bright line; newsworthy isn't a bright line.
This is right-wing political censorship, and you demean yourself by defending it.
Of course we must have standards! But obviously anything the right-wingers object to meets those standards.
If a book contains masturbation or pornography, it obviously meets the standards, unless the person objecting to it says it objectifies women. If such an objector is a *real* feminist and not a TERF, their concerns would be valid.
This is not a discussion of standards. It’s partisanship.
This is right-wing political censorship, and you demean yourself by defending it.
Parents are objecting to the books because the books are not age appropriate. Often, parents are barred from reading these books aloud at a school board meeting.
Nah that’s not what’s happening. This isn’t parents it’s politics.
Sure there are some activists at some meetings, but this isn’t vox populi.
And check your often meter - it’s running way hot on how often stuff is happening.
That’s exactly what’s happening. Go look at the videos describing books that were found in Florida schools. Books about anal sex. Books about boys camps where they watch porn and circle jerk and jizz into the same Mountain Dew bottle. Books about buttplugs.
If I were to share one of those books with, say, a high school freshman I’d end up on a registry forever. Why is it not the same for a teacher or librarian?
You just don’t want to know because of how you are. Easier to just deny it because you can’t possibly defend it.
Yeah I did. I also checked what other sources than the Florida GOP were saying. You should maybe try that.
iowatwo
Sarcatr0,
I've read both the GOP sources iowatwo discusses and the other sources Sarcatr0 says he read.
But what iowatwo didn't add is that the parents discuss precisely the bits they find inappropriate: detailed graphic discussions and illustrations of sexual acts like fellatio, intercourse or anal intercourse, discussion of pedophilia ( with no condemnation).
Did Saracastr0's others nonGOP sources say the books do not discuss what those complaining about them say they discuss? I'm guessing no. Because the books absolutely do contain those illustrations or text discussions. And if one actually raises the discussion of whether illustrations of sexual acts like fellatio, intercourse or anal intercourse in middle school libraries, most people would say, "Wait, What? No."
And I have read tons sources defending the books parents are objecting to. The defenses generally merely tell you that "Some Group" likes the book and thinks it's "valuable" for some reason or other. But the defenses never discuss the very specific portions complaining parents find objectionable, nor do they deny those portions exist.
In short: those defending the books as "appropriate" only do so by refusing to address the specific contents of the book.
It is as if we had a conversation where: First some parents objected that the illustrated Kama Sutra did not belong on middle school shelves because the illustrations of sexual acts are age inappropriate. Then defenders wrote posts saying these objections are just partisan Asian hate, and the book has great historical value and helps some group feel included while refusing to agree that yes the book does contain those pictures. And then by not discussing the specific contents parents object to, avoiding discussions about whether a book of graphic illustrations of various sexual positions is age appropriate for 10 year old middle schoolers.
There's a lot of sleight of hand going on here: WHO had access to these books?
Wow, you are utterly credulous.
Which of the following are porn etc?
https://pen.org/banned-books-florida/
Nige,
Better question: Which of those books are banned? I went to your link (https://pen.org/banned-books-florida/) Scrolled down to find a list of banned books. The first on the list below "These are the 176 books banned in Duval County:" is "At the Mountain’s Base, by Traci Sorell and Weshoyot Alvitre".
After a little googling: The book is not banned. It is being reviewed (as are all books). You can read here:
https://www.news4jax.com/entertainment/2022/09/20/dcps-disputes-report-that-nearly-200-books-have-been-banned-from-libraries-says-books-were-never-on-shelves/
So:
(1) The books have not been banned.
(2) The books were not pulled from shelves.
Pending review, lots of new books are not being acquired. And Duval County is a little weirdly inefficient and making what I consider odd choices. But it has not banned the books Pen (your source) claimes it banned.
I doubt that book will be banned. It's fine.
If it actually does get banned, then we can all discuss how draconian the rules are, or discuss whether it should have been. But it hasn't been banned. Your source is simply wrong.
'It is being reviewed'
It seems like the publicity has made them cagey, that's all.
, but this isn’t vox populi.
Vox populi enough to change the complexion of a school board in one election.
A representative republic in action. Exactly the way its supposed to happen.
Guess what? In a few months there will be another election, and you can work to get a different outcome.
School board wants to replace all the books with only books that say Iowanto can suck it over and over. Will of the people and thus above reproach?
Don’t be reductive.
The people closest to the subject are elected to make the rules the community lives by.
Its working exactly like designed.
Your lack of objection to my hypothetical is noted.
Your hypothetical is meaningless.
In a representative republic, the way to settle differences of opinion is at the ballot box. Elect the the people that support your agenda.
Failing that, your opinion is just that. Neither right or wrong, just not the current policy as decided by the People closest to the decision. But as always, in a few months, another election comes along.
But in some jurisdictions, those elections have changed the way public education money is dispersed.
In Iowa, the First piece legislation out of the legislature, and signed by the Governor, was a bill to allow education spending to follow the student to private schools.
This happened, because Public Schools have been ignoring their customer's concerns.
It would be easy for Public schools to address the concern of parents and maintain and grow their enrollment, but School Administrators, populated with people holding multiple advanced degrees, lacked the intellectual acuity to grasp cause and effect.
Where in all this is criticism of their actions disallowed or precluded? Is it only fringe religious cranks who are allowed to stand up and have their say?
"And no, I’m not going to give you a bright line. Obscenity isn’t a bright line; mainstream isn’t a bright line; newsworthy isn’t a bright line."
"This is not a discussion of standards. It’s partisanship."
So you'll assert which side of the line you think is this is on, but you pointedly refuse to defend your claim by drawing a line? How typical.
Mein Kampf was in my school library when I was a kid.
Are these equivalent to children's books that have two daddies, black characters or child characters who are non-binary? Because if you think they are, that's the problem right there.
To distinguish such actions from bans is simply a smug, let-them-eat-cake form of argument which handwaves away the obvious fact that denials of convenience which have no purpose but to block access by those without the time and money to defeat them are hostile and immoral acts.
Tell us about the Anarchist Cookbook, that exemplary moral guide to making bombs and drugs, and why it belongs in school libraries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_Cookbook
Margrave, if there is a better text to kick off a discussion of Jefferson's famous "Tree of Liberty" remark, I am not aware of it.
In school libraries?
Just like not giving kids coffee and soda and ice cream — or not making it available for purchase at school — is a BAN on coffee and soda and ice cream.
BAN!!!
My public high school got rid of soda while I was there and yes, it was known as the soda ban.
When you come in and take something away that was there, it's a ban.
Here's how stupid your argument on limited resources is. School libraries are pretty small compared to the number of books that exist. Would you agree?
Even the universe of books that fit squarely within age-appropriateness and educational mission is huge. Librarians - or whoever is making catalogue decisions - are at no risk of running out of great books for kids.
So why would anyone ever want to remove a book? I can imagine wanting to add books. There are such limited resources after all, tons of great books aren't making the cut! The chance that the library ran out of good book options and had to resort to marginally-appropriate content is nil.
That's why it's so blatant that these are partisan book bans. It just doesn't make sense any other way.
Randal
Sometimes the reason to remove books is to make space for different books which may be more current or have greater merit. Shelf space is limited resource.
My sister is a law librarian and once worked at the LA law library. The removed old resources all the time to bring in new resources, often to remain up to date to include new rulings. Did some people protest the library culling the old volumes? Believe it or not: yes. Some did.
Perhaps. But "partisan" doesn't necessarily mean unfair. It's equally partisan to insist no books can ever be cut.
To show calling for a particular book or group of books is unfair, inconsistent or somehow wrong, you need to show that the standard is applied in some biased way. Often those complaining about the ban's like to shy away from the fact that Gender Queer contains graphic illustrations that would call for the book to be pulled if they were shown in a heterosexual context. The people wanting it off school shelves would also not want the illustrated Kama Sutra on shelves.
'But “partisan” doesn’t necessarily mean unfair.'
But sometimes it can, which at its core is what this argument is all about - the actual books that they want banned and why.
Sure. Sometimes partisan unfair. Sometimes it's not.
Yes. And at least some books parents are complaining of contain graphic depictions of anal or oral sex, sex toys and so on and so on. Some discuss sex between children and not in a sociological context, but more a "pleasure" or "options" context (Lawn Boy.)
Some of those have materialized on middle school libraries. The parents complaining think these are age inappropriate in school libraries.
If you want to say the issue is what books and why: then discuss which books, and why. The parent's objection is generally, sexual discussions they think are not appropriate for 10 year olds. And they are very specific about which books, which scenes and go to the trouble to read the specific bits at school board meetings!
'Some of those have materialized on middle school libraries.'
See, this is all so incredibly vague. Who exactly has access to these books?
(a) The entire school staff and students.
(b) Specifically: Middle school students enrolled at that school, all of whom have access to the books in the middle school library.
I think Nige's question, if I may speak for them, is, why are you using hedgy words like "materialized?" Who put them there? Was it a prank? If they were officially sanctioned, why? Was it just a typo, like, they meant to order the Phish album but ended up with the porno book? If it was intentional, what was the reasoning? Was it a misapplication of the standards, or a faithful application that had this unintended consequence?
You guys' indifference towards these basic questions is what makes it feel like a puritanical cult ritual rather than a civic improvement project.
>You guys’ indifference towards these basic questions is what makes it feel like a puritanical cult ritual rather than a civic improvement project.
You indifference to these books being on the shelves is disturbing. Objecting to them being removed is disturbing. These positions would be disturbing even if the books ended up on the shelf as the result of some prank. Even if they ended up on the shelf as a prank, they should be removed. Requiring them to be removed if found is appropriate.
If what amounts to porn ends up on the middle school shelve due to insufficient review by staff, then it's not unreasonable to create a policy to ensure they books get reviewed.
I don't know how you can suggest that wanting to change policies to prevent these books from being shelved in the first place or removing them should they end up there is not a civic project!
Beyond that: people have been tracing how these books got on the shelves. Schools do keep records of how they came to acquire various properties including books on the shelves. These have generally gotten there through the intentional actions of either teachers or librarians with one or the other purchasing them. In the case of librarians, they would use the school library funds. In the case of teachers, either school funds or, in some cases, teachers fund their own "mini libraries" inside their classroom and sometimes pay for them out of their own pockets.
In one case (e.g. Lawn Boy, by Evison) a librarian said her intention was to obtain a different book also with the title "Lawn Boy". It might have happened in others-- But stories of a book ending up on there through what amounts to a clerical error are rare. Generally, the books were placed on the school shelves intentionally by employees of the school. (Either teachers or librarians.)
If what amounts to porn ends up on the middle school shelve due to insufficient review by staff, then it’s not unreasonable to create a policy to ensure they books get reviewed.
But you don’t know or care if that’s the case. That’s what’s weird. Why aren’t you interested in that? You’re interested in the political theater and the virtue signaling, but not in figuring out the actual root problem. You’re using Gender Queer to make political hay with no concern for protecting kids from Gender Queer II. Probably you’re hoping for Gender Queer II to “materialize” so that you can use it to stir up more political support. Probably some right-wing activist group is going around planting these books on shelves, and that’s why you don’t really want to get to the bottom of it.
You indifference to these books being on the shelves is disturbing.
Who cares what I think? The fact that you do just furthers my suspicion that this is all a political gambit and not really about protecting kids. No, I’m not going to vote for DeSantis because of Gender Queer, so if that’s your motivation, you can stop now.
Generally, the books were placed on the school shelves intentionally by employees of the school.
And no one thought to ask them why? Are librarians just buying whatever books cross their minds that day? I hope not!
Sometimes the reason to remove books is to make space for different books which may be more current or have greater merit.
And if that's what were happening, that woukd be fine.
This is what the censorship-defenders are pretending is happening. But it's clearly a book ban. There are no "different books" driving the decisionmaking.
Randal
No. No one is claiming they want Gender Queer off the shelves simply to make room. I gave that as a reason because you wanted to suggest there were never any reasons to remove books from shelves. Clearly you recognize some reasons to remove books. So that's a start.
What kicked made some parents start stepping forward to bann books is finding books like Gender Queer on the shelf. These are "illustrated books" (aka cartoon books) with graphic depictions of sexual acts that have appeared on shelves. Many images some parents object to are shown here, including fellatio, vibrating bullets and so on.
https://theiowastandard.com/shocking-images-from-book-gender-queer-which-is-stocked-in-school-libraries-across-iowa/
If you want to argue the book belongs on the shelf at a high school do so. Admit the existence of these precise images, then explain why all parents should think books with those specific images and passages are just fine and for what age groups. And also explain why they should take up space relative to other books.
Or continue to just say something like any limitation of books on school shelves is wrong because the word "ban" could be applied to the limitation. Sorry, but some works don't belong on school library shelves and that is true even if one can describe that as "banning a book".
Gender Queer doesn't bother me. There might be other books that would bother me, like an Intelligent Design book or something. Should I go to school board meetings to get my pet issues banned?
(Definitely don't ever take your kids to Europe if you're triggered by Gender Queer!)
No one is claiming they want Gender Queer off the shelves simply to make room.
What they (and you) are claiming is that this is equivalent to the normal process. It isn't. This is book banning. Anyone could impart their biases onto school libraries by organizing book bans against their disfavored subject matter. First it's sexualized content, then it's gay-themed content, then it's profanity, then it's violent content, then it's blasphemous content, then it's Communist content, then it's subversive content, then it's Jewish content, then it's any unapproved content, until all you're left with is propaganda. That's Florida's trajectory.
The normal process is that there's a holistic content curation program that has particular standards and priorities. How did Gender Queer get selected in the first place? Isn't that the obvious question to start with? It's this direct leap to ban specific books that bothers me. That's just straight-up censorship. If there are problems with the standards, advocate for changing the standards.
... the fact that Gender Queer contains graphic illustrations that would call for the book to be pulled if they were shown in a heterosexual context. The people wanting it off school shelves would also not want the illustrated Kama Sutra on shelves.
Is that a fact? It's been a long time since I perused the Kama Sutra, but if memory serves, it depicts actual genitalia, not just sex toys. Even illustrations of actual genitalia wouldn't bother me personally depending on the context... but in any case, it seems like a big leap from Gender Queer's fake penis / ancient-Greek-art-style penis. If there's any distinction to draw, it isn't gay vs. straight. It's fake vs. real.
And for some people, context might be what matters most. The Kama Sutra is a sex manual. Even without the illustrations, that's not the sort of thing I imagine a school library would select for! Gender Queer seems more like a coming-of-age story.
Really the worst part of Gender Queer is the "vagina slime!"
So we can decide to not give kids sexually explicit books and coffee and soda and ice cream at school. And it’s no big deal. Glad we all agree on that.
That makes total sense, Ben, because just the right to access and consume soda shall not be infringed.
And then there are the smug leftists that ignore any reason given rather than recognize or debate the legitimacy of them. But please carry on with your crusade so sexualize and manipulate children into permanent mutilation.
Ignore them?
'But please carry on with your crusade so sexualize and manipulate children into permanent mutilation.'
Oh we're well aware of what your evil dublicitous arguments are.
“The use of a library (including a school library) is almost as much a part of free speech as the right to use our tongues…”
A kid who reads aloud from those books at a school and holds them up for people to see would get in trouble. (DeSantis did this yesterday and networks had to cut away because they don’t broadcast sexually explicit content.
Do it in your office at your workplace and you’re guilty of sexual harassment.
So, yeah. About the same. It’s a “right” except when it’s not really a right.
You can pull the same trick with the bible, you know.
Hell, you can put up a bible quote on a billboard and have Christians whine to Fox about how you're oppressing them over it.
And?
How many bibles at that school library?
Ben, I guess we need a dozen Bibles in every class room
Free speech for all.
If they aren’t there, it’s a ban on a book.
No one is arguing that.
Also the Bible is a fine text to use.
My public high school had a bible lit class. It was fine. Nobody cares.
You guys (Ben, Iowa) are making up crazy shit to get angry about that has no bearing on reality. You just enjoy going through life in a permanent state of paranoid grievance I guess.
You guys (Ben, Iowa) are making up crazy shit to get angry about that has no bearing on reality. You just enjoy going through life in a permanent state of paranoid grievance I guess.
You have just described virtually the entire American conservative movement.
Any decision against any book is a ban and any place with any ban on any book is an authoritarian hellscape. Nige taught me that. He’s a lot like you.
Oh so now the bible is gay porn?
There's a whole section in the Library of Congress for bibles, dude.
They aren't rare.
The Library of Congress is part of a public grade school?
I have no idea what WuzYoungoncetoo said, on account of being muted.
But I suppose it's reasonable for someone to be confused: I meant the Libracy of Congress call number system.
Bibles are so common in libraries they have their own sub-code.
" networks had to cut away because they don’t broadcast sexually explicit content."
Shocking that these networks would engage in book-banning.
Must be crypto-authoritarians at those networks.
Ben_, I hope this does not come as a surprise to you, but expressive freedom is generally supposed to include a right to express yourself privately, and to receive others' expressions privately.
Ben_, I hope this does not come as a surprise to you, but expressive freedom is generally supposed to include a right to express yourself privately, and to receive others’ expressions privately.
Still trying to peddle that "a published work that's available to the general public constitutes private communication" stupidity?
If only there were some sort of clue within the word "published" itself....
Yeah amazing how often it turns out these books aren't in young children's librarries at all.
Note that this argument can be independent of whether the platforms' actions violate the First Amendment; they likely don't, at least absent government coercion, since they aren't state action, but independently of the legal question one might argue that such actions should still be condemned.
Given the attack on press freedom implicit in any such condemnation, it seems a surprising argument for a 1A advocate to endorse.
Not stated: that Volokh has previously sided with the "it's not a ban, they can but it elsewhere!" when it comes to books, but within a week screamed censorship because an administrator took down some fliers.
#KissingDesantAss
Nothing says "loaded with book-buying cash" like a middle class kid under 16 years.
I would hope you see the difference between an administrator deciding what official speech his institute chooses to engage in, in his capacity as a book buyer and librarian, and what speech of others they can censor in a public forum.
I can see a clear difference.
This isn’t pedagogical choice, though, it’s partisan politics.
So yeah, it is pretty much the same state censorship regardless of the specific venue.
To you EVERYTHING is partisan politics. You don’t seem capable of understanding how quickly parents get outsold political bullshit when they see potential harm to their children.
Was the most recent Virginia governors race partisan politics or did the Dems get swatted for telling parents they knew better what was best for the children than their parents? The whole race turned in this stuff.
Yeah DeSantis is a cool and moderate dude.
Your bothsidesism is morphing into run of the mill right wing culture warrior it’s not true if I don’t believe it nonsense.
I don’t know what mandate you think Youngkin got but it wasn’t all books I’m school must be right wing approved now,
"This isn’t pedagogical choice, though, it’s partisan politics."
Um, sounds like the parties support different pedagogical choices.
So you can see a clear difference between two strawmen?
Convenient, but not relevant.
So you can see a clear difference between two strawmen?
It looks like we can add the meaning of "strawmen" to the already long list of things you don't understand.
The elephant in the room peeps seem happy to ignore is what prompted removal of some books from school libraries. Elected school boards saw a turnover in membership and elected state and local pols got elected by promising voters/tax payers to get rid of books that were offensive. This was certainly the case when Mark Twain's classic Huckleberry Finn was removed and while there was some blowback it was mostly muted compared to the removal of more recent books that had nowhere the stature of Twain's work.
Of course nobody ran on a platform of getting rid of Mark Twain's works it was the result of what I will call a sneak attack by pols likely in order to court votes in the next election. On the other hand the more recent books that were/are being removed seems to be the result of pols/school boards having run on the platform of getting rid of those books.
It is never easy to split the baby between pure democracy and a representative republic but from what I am understand the removal of Twain's works was much less popular than the removal of the more recent works which truth be told are by mostly unknown writers who's works would likely remain unknown unless they were on the topics they describe. So what are pols and school boards to do when the popular opinion seems to be keep offensive books out of schools?
So what are pols and school boards to do when the popular opinion seems to be keep offensive books out of schools?
Maybe remind popular opinion that its collective extent is incompatible with the notion, "offensive," which is by its nature an individual assertion. It is a paradox to think that what one person finds offensive—or even a multitude together find similarly offensive—constitutes a reified, "popular opinion." That is what makes book bans destructive. Expressive freedom is the opposite of a collective concept.
You still don't get it. If tax payers who support public schools and vote pols in and out of office are unhappy with books in school libraries there is a problem. You may not like it that I use the term offensive but it should be obvious by now that lots of peeps don't like a tiny number of the books on school library shelves and those peeps are paying for those books.
I know it is a hard concept for some peeps to grasp but 'taxation with out representation' is sorta what this country was founded on and is still a significant feature of how the government works.
"Taxation without representation," was one among many principles this nation was founded upon. In fact, that very principle won its notoriety, and got its place in history, on the basis of another principle the founders prized even more—unfettered liberty to speak and publish without government constraint.
The folks who ran the Massachusetts government at the time Otis delivered his famous denunciation would have suppressed it if they could. The prize won by thwarting that kind of suppression is what put the 1A in the Constitution. There is nothing antithetical to the founders' principles in a demand that government allow public expressive discourse to proceed unfettered. You ought to know that yourself.
Let me rephrase my comment.
You can write any goddamn thing you want just don't expect to do it on my dime.
There is nothing antithetical to the founders’ principles in a demand that government allow public expressive discourse to proceed unfettered.
Your not talking about the freedom to speak.
Your demanding speakers be heard, under the thumb of government power.
If you have a problem with how elected officials are carrying out their duties, remove them at the next election.
There is nothing antithetical to the founders’ principles in a demand that government allow public expressive discourse to proceed unfettered.
Make up your sad excuse for a mind. Is the discourse in question public, or is it private (as you've repeatedly argued, including in this very thread)?
Apparently DeSantis held a press conference today to show some of the books that were removed from school libraries. I can’t find a full download and of course we’re not going to hear a lot about it from American Pravda, but apparently one of them taught children how to masturbate and one told a story about a young boy watching porn and marveling at the amount of pubic hair and the sizes of the dicks.
He’s right, some of this is happening because of a revolt of parents and taxpayers. If you think they should be ignored you’re absolutely wrong and if your team think they should be told to shut up then you should expect to lose a bunch of local elections.
Pretty vague, bevis. As you describe it, it sounds outrageous. But which books? Which school libraries? Were the books in question actually in the libraries, or added to a list by the state because someone claimed this or that? Assuming a sound basis for your anecdote, my first question would be about the collection development policy, and how that book got through its sieve. Without a showing that happened, I am not sure why anyone would suppose whatever idiosyncratic process put that book on a school library shelf would be blocked by politicians’outrage. Even book bans have to be administered by policy, not by magic.
Administrators need to be put in place that will make reasonable decisions. Note that reasonable doesn’t mean somebody’s concept of WWJD. Controversial books are fine. Sexually explicit books are not.
Books with same-sex partners heading a family are not inherently sexually explicit yet they're being included in the book bans as such. All one has to do is broaden the definition of sexually explicit to include anything that diverges from the Christian majority opinion on gender and bingo, you've got yourself another homophobic book ban.
Who said anything about same sex couples heading a family being a problem? Not me. I agree with you on that. The problem is books about dicks and anal sex and so on. Curriculum shouldn’t be turned over to the extremes of either side.
We had lots of books about dicks in my public school. We had a whole class about dicks and vaginas called Health.
Context matters. Misrepresenting and then complaining about anatomy books is retarded, medieval bullshit.
Sex education is extremist?
The people you're supporting, that's who.
The question stands. What are the books you are referring to, and what libraries? Also, simce this is a politician grandstanding, how can you complain when this is treated as partisan politics?
Stevie you really need to start keeping up with stuff.
https://dailycaller.com/2023/03/08/tv-channel-live-feed-desantis-pornographic-school-books/
Stephen
These are some of the specific books:
Gender Queer had been found in at least one middle school library (that served 4th graders.). I don't know about the rest. But parents finding these books on shelves is what kicked off the movement to get them off.
That's been one of the first questions. But the first step to getting the question asked included parents making school boards aware they were on the shelves. Whatever the policy was, either it was being violated or it allowed these on the shelves.
Sure. And if a policy is being violated, there needs to be an enforcement mechanism. If the policy is inappropriate it needs to be fixed. That's what those bringing up the presence of these book bans want done: If inappropriate, correct the policy. If appropriate, create an enforcement mechanism.
There's another possibility: that the policy is appropriate and being followed, and Gender Queer is the result.
That's another problem with this approach. It seems very outcome-oriented. I doubt the policy is something like "appropriate educational books, plus inappropriate, queer-themed, sexually explicit graphic novels" where you're going to be able to say oh, I see the problem! Let's just strike that queer-themed graphic novels clause!
DeSantis is right. It's being covered up by American Pravda.
Listen to yourself.
Our media blows. They’re appalling. Three quarters of the country sees it. Wonder what causes your blind spot?
Yeah I noticed when I said the media was perfect too.
Yiu are clearly reading and believing some media, for all your protestations. And it rather looks like the stuff you choose to believe is taking the DeSantis party line.
American Pravda indeed!
Lol. When Trump was president they acted as watchdogs like they’re supposed to do. Arguably overzealous but still in the right place.
During Biden they’ve been functionally a government rag. Except for Fox, of course, but they’ve got massive credibility issues of their own that are currently somehow getting worse.
It’s just a toxic stew of bullshit, almost none of which has any relationship with reality.
Who the crap is they?
You get your news and opinions from somewhere, chief.
I thought Trump played the media like a harp from hell? I was told they were his 'bitches' often enough.
So DeSantis showed a few inappropriate books. So what?
Did he show the ones that were wholly appropriate that were also removed?
The problem, IMO, is using a few such cases to get rid of anything DeSantis doesn't like.
"...apparently one of them taught children how to masturbate..."
Why is it a bad thing to teach children how to masturbate?
EV: See https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/530/679/1369994/
The book _365 Days_ was a series of interviews with Vietnam soldiers conducted by a MD who was stationed in an evac hospital — and (memory is) the last chapter involved his younger brother who died there. So you can kinda guess the tone of the book…
What got it into trouble is that soldiers use the word “fuck” a *lot*, for all parts of speech, and he quoted them accurately. So that word appeared in the book *a lot* — and I do mean *a LOT*.
The Woodland/Bailyville School District is a logging area on the Canadian border halfway between the border crossings of Houlton (I-95) and Calais (US Route 1) — at the time it was very much part of Maine’s Bible Belt. Jasper Wyman was from somewhere near there.
It’s an interesting decision.
The MSM has become so unhinged that there is basically no objective reality anymore that is widely knowable.
Very recently stories circulated that DeSantis had two baseball books about great minority players pulled from bookshelves. One was Roberto Clemente (FWIW one of my favorites when I was a kid) and the other I forget. At any rate, they were pulled off the shelves by one district as part of a library-wide review, and after a week or two they were reapproved and put back in the school library.
And then there’s the famous DeSantis critical blogger registry. Michael Beschloss compared him to Mussolini over that one. Turns out it was something introduced by one extremist Republican legislator and today DeSantis said he wasn’t interested.
We are buried in bogus narrative bullshit by our media, and a bunch of y’all get yourselves worked up over bad information. Conveyed to you, by the way, by people that scream about the danger of misinformation. American politics has become a Monty Python sketch.
I'm not sure what you're reading, but DeSantis took his sweet time on that blogger bill before calling it insane. Almost as though public pushback was what motivated him.
Similarly, the books are being pulled off the shelves were put back only after outcry. And it was not by some ordinary administrative thing, but a state requirement that all books be reviewed a 'media specialist.' Seems legit!
Double. Check. The. Shit. You. Read.
I’m the one that is initially cynical about everything I see in the media. E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. You’re the one that laps up leftish gruel like a lapdog.
And whatever everyone was motivated by, the things I posted appear to be correct so things worked out ok.
Perhaps the right should have borrowed the left’s Dahl Plan and just rewritten the fucking books and written out everything objectionable. Best I can tell that’s something you’re fine with.
One more time for the libturds who can't keep up. DeSantis started reading from one of the books removed from schools and the TV network had to cut away cuz it was too dirty to show on TV. Feel free to buy all the porn you like but don't expect Florida taxpayers to pay for it being put in schools.
https://dailycaller.com/2023/03/08/tv-channel-live-feed-desantis-pornographic-school-books/
Heck Finn says nigger.
You proved nothing other than you swallow DeSantis defending DeSantis without checking with anyone else. Because why check someone as honest as him?
The tv reporters tweeted that they dropped their coverage. Ragebot gave you a link through which you could see that.
But you always revert to your habit of putting your fingers in your ears and saying “lalalalalalala”.
No, he's saying it's irrelevant, which it is. TV stations are less tolerant of controversial material than libraries. Isn't that a good thing? A news broadcast would cut away from a Huckleberry Finn reading, the bible, and any number of science textbooks.
Go ahead, Florida, ban everything more controversial than a Friends rerun and see how brainless your kids grow up to be.
Sounds like you're getting mad at sex-ed books. That's old school fundamentalism, objecting to sex-ed.
The AP's fact check says DeSantis has nothing to do with it.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-ron-desantis-blogger-bill-florida-591224630083
As I understand the facts a lone Senator filed the bill with no co-sponsors. It hasn't even been heard in committee, no other state senators have supported it, there hasn't been any vote.
And when DeSantis was asked about it he said he didn't support it and had no advance knowledge it would be filed.
On what basis do you say he took his sweet time about it? I'd say you are making unsupported allegations with no basis in fact.
What's the timeline you are using to claim he took his sweet time about repudiating the bill?
He was asked about it 5 days ago and said he had to review it.
“DeSantis's office said Friday it was reviewing the bill. "As usual, the governor will consider the merits of a bill in final form if and when it passes the legislature," said his press secretary, Bryan Griffin.”
Not that he waited once it got unpopular!
So he didn't condemn it until after he read it?
That sounds pretty damning,I can't imagine reviewing something and making sure the press reports are accurate.
Besides that, taking 5 days to condemn a bill that won't even be reviewed in committee for months doesn't sound like he's taking his sweet time about it. It's not like he waited until it was on his desk ready to sign, when it would never get passed anyway.
Not what I said, Kaz. That timeline is not oh he didn’t read it and got ambushed, 3 days says he was waiting to see how the wind would blow.
Especially give now hard he came out against it when he did decide to speak.
The whole thing was bullshit and DeSantis handled it as well as anyone could. There’s 120 members of the Florida State Legislature and each one can write bills without needing to talk to the governor first. It’s ridiculous to waste the governor’s time asking him about a bill when you haven’t even spoke with the legislator who wrote it first. Especially when there are no co-sponsors or action taken on the bill.
Is that what Mussolini would do for a fascist law? Wait and review it and then say nah? One of your networks said he was behaving like Mussolini and you sure seem to believe it.
Please point out the Mussolini-like behavior. Use your superior knowledge to educate us.
DeSantis isn’t Mussolini. Well proven.
Doesn’t me he isn’t a partisan into some abuse of authority.
Presumably the idea is that if it's harmful when the government discriminates on viewpoint then it's likely to be harmful when other sufficently powerful institutions do as well.
One can debate where that line is but presumably what makes it beneficial that the government doesn't block certain kinds of speech isn't about the label 'government'. In a hypothetical world in which there was only one employer with only a few handyman style exceptions and (apart from minor personal transactions) only one store to buy things at then it would presumably still be bad if that entity, even if officially private, imposed stiff penalities on certain kind of speech. Maybe the government shouldn't stop them from doing so but if supporting the wrong political canidate was a career death sentence it's presumably going to have a similar bad effect regardless of who imposes it.
I suspect lots of the difference then comes down to how much power one sees places like Twitter or school libraries exercising.
It needs to be commented upon here that the "book bans" being mentioned are generally in relation to minors being able to access the material at hand. Not banning books for adults.
And there is a long tradition of restricting minors access to certain materials.
Except that’s not what this is.
You're right, Sarc, it's even less than that. The school is not saying "children are prohibited from having this book". The school is saying "we will not provide children with free access to this book".
A library can only fit 0.00000000001% of the possible materials, so nobody really disagrees with “banning” i.e. not having certain materials. They’re just disagreeing with the selection choices, because they want to have their pet agendas, politics and viewpoints reflected in the material made available to children in the school.
But if you don’t have kids that attend that school, or at least live in that school district, what the hell business it of yours? People need to learn how to mind their own business. There's really just profound systemic mental illness afflicting our society.
Cue the insane leftists talking like there should be some kind of Administrative Procedure Act For School Libraries read into the Constitution.
'They’re just disagreeing with the selection choices,'
It's the guys saying they're ALL porn that kinda give the game away.
What a strange, and wrong, semantic argument. "Ban" does not imply a global, universal prohibition. I can ban political talk at my dinner table and smoking in my house. That doesn't mean those things are illegal worldwide, but they have been banned. By your standard, no book has ever been banned, since you could legally obtain a copy in some other jurisdiction.
Redefining words to support a conclusion is something you would (or should) be troubled by in a student's work. It's far beneath a professor.
But the school library is not BANNING a book. It is deciding what to do with its own property - to no longer possess that book and make it available. That's not "banning" any more than a bookstore deciding to no longer carry a book is "banning" that book. Or, to use your example, there's a difference between banning other people from smoking and deciding to quit smoking myself and not keep any cigarettes in my house any more. It would be "banning" if students were prohibited from bringing their own copy of the book into the library.
You're the one redefining words.
It isn't deciding what to do with its own property its bowing to external pressure to remove books selected by extremist Christian fundamentalists with good funding and political support.
Actually Drewski, a student could bring the “banned” book into the library and read it at their pleasure.
A library not including a book among their offerings is no more “banning” it than not including certain content within the pages of your book is “banning” that information from your book.
So the strange and wrong semantic argument is yours!
A social media website not including Trump is no more "banning" them than...
Yeah, no, that logic doesn't fly.
Removing a book from a library is clearly not a "ban". That's hyperbole. It may be a form of censorship. Social media blocking, deleting etc. is a form of censorship as well - censorship does not have to be governmental.
It’s only a ban when Huck Finn is removed because of the ‘N’ word, if it's a book with two Dads or Moms in it it’s sparkling prohibition.
Suppose a monopoly corporation owns all the property. If you don’t do what it says, it will simply evict you to one of the 6 by 6 foot public squares, with all doors and windows to its property locked and barred, where you are welcome to stay in complete freedom until you starve to death.
Doubtless its lawyers will not just evict but sue anyone who attempts to call the 6×6 spaces with locks and bars “prison cells.” They will doubtless argue that legally they are public squares and must be called that. The fact that they look and function exactly like prison cells doesn’t matter. Legally those locks and bars they have serve only to keep you OUT of their private property, and not in any way to keep you IN the space. The fact they have that effect is totally irrelevant to the legal point.
I’m not sure if the fact that a company’s lawyers choose not to call their power to delete any email or post they don’t like “censorship” really matters a hill of beans to an ordinary powerless stiff living at their mercy. Does the difference between legally public and legally private really make any practical difference? If it would be fair to say that the “public square” is really a prison cell, it would be equally fair to say a ln absolute power to edit or delete your communications at will is really censorship, and the company ( and in fact the society) is merely employing a legal strategem which constitutes a meaningless legal fiction, not functional or meaningful fact.
If privatizing makes it not censorship, why can’t government simply privatize everything?
What if aliens came to earth and threatened to turn anyone who said the word "orange" into a newt? Would that be censorship?
Yes, in a hypothetical world in which one company owned all the property in existence, which you keep randomly bringing up in the same way you keep randomly bringing up foreigners in discussions of abortion, then we would have to change our thinking, perhaps.
Since that's not only not this world, but isn't any possible world, what is the point of repeatedly asking the question?
Look. During slavery there were a lot of people claiming that because Uncle Tom’s Cabin was an exaggeration of slave conditions, any claim the darkies weren’t happy as clams was a pack of lies. It’s an exaggeration to make a point. But the fact is private monopoly power being excessive power, is a real thing, and my point that there can be no real difference between excessive private power and excessive government power from the point of view of those on the receiving end of it is also a real thing. Debt peonage in practice isn’t necessarily all that different from slavery.
That said, I don’t think a public school removing the first edition to make room for the second edition of a book is censorship. And I don’t see other removals as fundamentally different. All represent a content-based decision that content A is better for the educational program than content B. Same if a school chooses to teach Spanish and not Ugaritic. It’s not censoring Ugaritic by not teaching it. Nor is it censoring if a school decides to drop Latin and teach Chinese instead. Schools cannot have everything in their libraries and cannot teach everything. They must make choices about what content they think best to include. Therefore, they can make them.
In the first case the private company’s power and control over your communication channels enables it to effectively prevent you from speaking entirely. In the second case, government removing a book or a course from the library or curriculum doesn’t prevent you from obtaining the information on your own. Power matters.
Hmm. I actually think the debate about library books is not analogous to the debates about social media or the post office. As far as I have seen, the library book debate is exclusively focused on the removal of books that are already there, without considering the initial decision to carry a book.
On the other hand, in the social media and post office debates, real issue is whether the system is obligated to host an opinion at all. There is no meaningful distinction between removal of a post and preventing an opinion to post in the first place. Nor between refusing to deliver a letter and refusing to initially accept it for mailing. Whereas with libraries, I haven't heard anyone say libraries should carry books without regard to viewpoint. The only issue is whether, once they make it on the shelves, they can be removed.
Now, you certainly could ask, should library books, on free speech grounds, be free from viewpoint- and/or content-based restrictions generally? Both when determining which books to stock on the shelves, as well as whether to remove any books?
Maybe libraries could be a place where any citizen has the right to donate a book expressing their chosen viewpoint. At any rate, viewpoint could not be a criterion to refuse donated books (there could be other criteria, like shelf space or any other viewpoint-neutral criteria). Most libraries purchase books, so there would be the issue of why the library privileges the books it buys over the books it doesn't, or over any donations it refuses. Again, the criteria would definitely need to be viewpoint-neutral.
Content is a broader term then viewpoint. How would content-neutrality fit in?
My own opinion is that public libraries' curating decisions are clearly a matter of government speech. The government can choose what messages it wants to promote or not. Libraries have never been a place where anyone is free to add their own message to the catalog, and if there is no freedom-of-speech right to find a particular book at your local library. (And if there is, it should not be limited to books that earn the ideological approval of the pink-haired Karen behind the checkout counter!)
Still, acknowledging that freedom of speech is a broader issue than First Amendment case law, I will say that we need a workable principle that accounts for the entire library decision-making process, not just a few books that caused controversy.