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Police Officer's Defamation Suit Over Claims That Circled-Finger Sign Was "White Supremacist" Dismissed
There's finally a substantive decision in Olthaus v. Niesen, the case in which I argued before the Ohio Supreme Court challenging a pretrial prior restraint on defendant's publishing plaintiff's name, and in which my invaluable pro bono counsel Jeffrey M. Nye (Stagnaro, Saba & Patterson) argued on my behalf challenging plaintiff's pseudonymity and the sealing of his affidavit. Here's the heart of last week's opinion by Judge Megan Shanahan in Olthaus v. Niesen:
Following the death of George Floyd, racial tensions were high throughout our country. Responding to public protests on policing in Cincinnati, Cincinnati City Council scheduled a series of public meetings in the summer of 2020 to hear from constituents. On June 24, 2020, during one such meeting, Plaintiff, a uniformed police officer, was assigned to City Hall to provide police services including crowd control and security for City Council's chambers.
During that meeting, Plaintiff gave a hand signal that was interpreted by some as a "white supremacist" hand signal. According to Plaintiff, the hand signal was intended as an "okay" signal in response to an inquiry after a fellow officer that had just left the scene. The next day, through social media and filing a complaint with the Citizen's Complaint Authority, Defendants commented upon the hand signal and upon Plaintiff.
Plaintiff filed a lawsuit [for, among other things, defamation -EV] to restrain Defendants from publishing derogatory comments about him and to prevent them from publishing information about his family. Plaintiff maintains that he gave the universal hand signal for "okay" and that Defendants misinterpreted the signal as a "white power" sign. He argues that being called a white supremacist cop casts him as the worst kind of villain in today's society, damaging his professional and personal reputations and career, and threatening his safety and the safety of his family, colleagues, and friends….
Plaintiff states that in the current political atmosphere, Defendants' statements rise above mere opinion and operate as statement of fact. An opinion does not become a statement of fact because of political atmosphere.
The Complaint does not allege actual malice on the part of Defendant Niesen. It alleges Defendants' acts were malicious but it fails to plead any facts showing that Defendant Niesen made any statement with knowledge of the assertion's falsity or reckless disregard for its truth. Indeed, the statements were either a) true, or b) opinion.
According to the allegations of the Complaint, on June 25, 2020, Defendant Niesen published a post on social media in which she portrayed Plaintiff falsely as a "white supremacist," a term not subject to being proven true or false. She wrote that Plaintiff used a hand signal that white supremacists use. That statement, and the other statements made by Defendant Niesen, were true. Defendant Niesen's post is constitutionally protected speech.
Accepting the factual allegations of the Complaint as true, it appear[s] beyond doubt that Plaintiff can prove no set of facts warranting a recovery against Defendant Niesen for false light invasion of privacy or defamation. Regarding the negligence/recklessness claim, Plaintiff alleges that Defendants disseminated information that they knew or should have known was false. As the Court has found the post to be constitutionally protected speech, the claim for negligence/recklessness fails as well….
The Complaint alleges that Defendant White filed a complaint with the Citizen's Complaint Authority on June 25, 2020, and falsely accused Plaintiff of using the "white power" hand signal in the course of his employment. The accusation was not false. The hand signal was made. The intent behind the hand signal is disputed. Statements critical of public officials engaged in their official duties are actionable only if uttered with knowledge of their falsity or the reckless disregard of their truth. Publishing that it was the "white power" hand signal is not actionable as defamation or false light invasion of privacy.
The Complaint also states that Defendant White published on social media that Plaintiff is a "white supremacist kkkop" and a "white supremacist piece of shit." As these statements are not verifiable as true or untrue, they are opinions and are protected speech….
According to the allegations of the Complaint, Defendant Noe posted on social media that Plaintiff is a "limp-dicked POS [piece of shit]" and a "white supremacist," and that Plaintiff flashed the "white power symbol to Black speakers." The first two statements are incapable of being proven true or untrue and the third statement, that a hand signal was made by Plaintiff, is true. What was intended to be conveyed by the hand signal is disputed. But "[h]onest misinterpretation does not amount to actual malice." There is a basis in fact for Defendant Noe believing that the hand signal was a white power signal as it has come to be known as such. The language used by Defendant Noe "is value-laden and represents a point of view that is obviously subjective." "It is not sufficient for [Plaintiff] to show that an interpretation of facts is false; rather, he must prove with convincing clarity that [Mr. Noe] was aware of the high probability of falsity."
The Complaint further alleges that Defendant Noe "threatened to publicize Plaintiff's personal identifying information in his social media posts." As the [Ohio] Supreme Court noted, Defendant Noe did not express a clear intent to publicize name, address and phone number. Rather, he queried whether to do so would be legal and stated he would not do so unless told it was legal. Despite threatening to share this information, "while potentially offensive and disagreeable," a claim for false light invasion of privacy will not lie. The statement neither casts Plaintiff in a light that would be highly offensive to a reasonable person, nor does the statement reflect that Defendant Noe had knowledge of or acted in reckless disregard as to the falsity of the publicized matter and the false light in which Plaintiff would be placed….
The Complaint alleges that Defendant Noe portrayed Plaintiff as a "white supremacist" by posting a "deceptively edited photograph" of Plaintiff on social media. [The supposed deceptive editing wasn't heavily litigated, and to my knowledge the editing didn't actually make any factual assertions about Plaintiff. -EV] Again, this Court finds that referring to a police officer as a "white supremacist" is not actionable. It is protected speech. Similarly, the threat to publish personal identifying information is not defamation as it is not a false statement made with some degree of fault that reflects injuriously on Plaintiffs reputation or affects him in his profession….
This strikes me as quite correct. Courts have held that statements that someone is Communist, racist, white supremacist, etc. are generally statements of opinion, because they express someone's subjective evaluation of a person's actions and inferred motivations. "Everyone is free to speculate about someone's motivations based on disclosed facts about that person's behavior." Also, as I've noted in other contexts, quoting the Restatement of Torts:
A simple expression of opinion based on disclosed or assumed nondefamatory facts is not itself sufficient for an action of defamation, no matter how unjustified and unreasonable the opinion may be or how derogatory it is….
Illustrations:
[3.] A writes to B about his neighbor C: "I think he must be an alcoholic." A jury might find that this was not just an expression of opinion but that it implied that A knew undisclosed facts that would justify this opinion.
[4.] A writes to B about his neighbor C: "He moved in six months ago. He works downtown, and I have seen him during that time only twice, in his backyard around 5:30 seated in a deck chair with a portable radio listening to a news broadcast, and with a drink in his hand. I think he must be an alcoholic." The statement indicates the facts on which the expression of opinion was based and does not imply others. These facts are not defamatory and A is not liable for defamation….
Likewise, pointing out that a police officer made an OK gesture (which he did) and then saying that this is white supremacist is also an opinion.
Now actually falsely accusing someone of particular actions (e.g., falsely asserting that a police officer had shouted racial slurs at a suspect) could indeed be defamatory. But merely characterizing a person's accurately-described actions as supposedly racist, and drawing inferences (without suggesting any specific personal knowledge) about the person's motivations, is not actionable as defamation.
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In this era of Cancel Culture, accusations of racist, white supremacist, etc. should be considered defamation per se.
Those are clearly spoken or written language that exposes the plaintiff to public hatred, ridicule, contempt or disgrace. They are also statements that causes people to have such a negative opinion of the plaintiff that they refuse to associate with him or her. This used to be the definition of "defamation per se", but the courts lake the character and fitness to update the definitions from the late-1800s.
Also, it would seriously low the tensions and polarization of modern politics.
Getting called out by courts and owing uncollectable defamation damages would lower tensions?
There are far too many useful idiots parroting all sorts of stupid opinions all across the political spectrum for that to make any difference.
A $1 award would have worked wonders...
It wouldn't have changed squat. Too little, they'd laugh and still refuse to pay. Too much, they'd laugh and couldn't pay.
Refusing to pay a judgment leads to interesting consequences like liens, confiscations, and findings of contempt of court.
Even without that, the officer would have been vindicated.
An honest media (yes, I know) would have reported that he had been libeled when called a white supremacist and hence wasn't one. And I think that was all he really wanted...
There are uncountable useful idiots who have nothing of value to take, and jails don't have enough room for very many of them, unless you think it just fine to release real criminals to make room.
Huh? Are you talking about people who refuse to pay a judgment against them, or people who are legitimately too destitute to publish a defamatory web site? I was talking about the former. If you're taking about the latter, the problem case is really the subset of them who will still find s way to repeat defamation even after losing a court case and being ordered to desist. How many of those people do you think exist?
Yeah, I could see you lot criminalising calling someone racist or sexist or homophobic.
You leftists are trying to criminalize "racism" and "bigotry."
A stupid, unworkable take based on a demonstrably false claim. Except as it applied to accusations against judges, magistrates, and peers, Blackstone used the same standards of per se and per quod defamation that we use today.
My med school class had "88" stickers made, quite a few ended up on bumpers/windows.
Of course it was 1988, and probably 1000's of High School/Colleges had the same idea, didn't have the connotation I was to learn years later when I still had the sticker on my 78' LTD (Police Interceptor) now if it had been on a Chevelle "SS".....
Frank
*I* had to look it up -- and my response is YouHaveGotToBeKidding.
The fact that "H" is the 8th letter of the alphabet is not something that the average person actually deals with much, even if you sometimes play with hexadecimals. And it corresponds to "HH" -- well in my world, that's "Helly Hansen" -- a high quality brand of waterproof clothing worn in the commercial fisheries. AND which uses the logo "HH" - see: https://applesafety.com/product/70583-storm-fishing-bib-helly-hansen/?attribute_pa_color=army-green&attribute_pa_size=large&msclkid=4abedbf9d80f1075e567bfffeb817a10
No, they aren't cheap, either -- but on the ocean, wearing the HH logo means that you are bright enough not to buy cheap garbage that will come apart the first time you wear it. Not that you support some long dead dictator...
Personally, I think that if the folks opposed to racism had a scintilla of integrity, they'd come out and say "we have a problem with white supremacists in this country, but this is bull-shyte, and we think it should be ignored."
And it's considered good luck in Chinese culture -- something about the pronunciation being similar to some word that means that or something and they end a lot of their prices in 88 cents for that reason.
My first car was an Oldsmobile Delta 88 -- with delta being a triangle, I guess I could have been defined as both a homophobe and a white supremacist for merely driving it. This is insanity....
https://www.hhgregg.com/
obviously a bunch of Nazis!!!
and don't even get me started on Dale Earnhardt Jr.
just a coincidence? Kraut name AND "#88"??????
Frank
Silly me I always thought HH was quality but maybe somewhat over priced foul weather used by yacht racers (and yea I do wear it but only because it is a babe magnet even if it is the best foul weather gear I own).
https://www.hellyhansen.com/the-ocean-race
They sell that stuff too -- but the yacht racing gear won't last long if you are tossing around lobster traps on the deck of a pitching boat.
As to "babe magnets" -- we knew the babes wouldn't be interested in us anyway, so we got close to them and freaked them out with the residual odors of bait juice and such. They had the Kodak view of Maine -- never realizing that lobsters didn't just walk into traps on their own or the rest...
Some probably were nice people -- but most weren't....
My first mountain bike was a Specialized, and they threw in a lightning bolt "S" sticker which I put on the front of a car side mirror.
My second mountain bike was another Specialized, and I put its same sticker next to the first one, and since it was now out of sight, it took me years to see the SS combination.
Have to say the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear 88 is the Crazy 88s in Kill Bill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYq_Jpxdq2A
As a legal matter, I concur that the decision was quite correct.
As a matter of social norms, I fear that we are far off the rails when one side of the political debate can arbitrarily coopt normal words, gestures and other communications and turn them into "dog-whistle" accusations. As a matter of social norms, these people should be laughed off the air as the worst kind of conspiracy theorists.
I’m still convinced the Betsy Ross gym shoes thing was a setup from day one.
I’m sure the NSA and Google know who first suggested this and Ok sign and others be secret neo-nazi racist stuff on some sketchy web sites, “Hey, pals, let’s do this!”, and I am not sure it is angry young men from their basements. God knows enough orgs probably create live feed updates of them to trace it back to its origins, but only the big spy iron knows the IPs of posters.
I've long had the same feeling about spambots; the NSA must know the sources of 99% of spam. You can also tell that a lot of spam comes from home computers turned on in the evening by the timing; hell, if we're paying the NSA to spy on us, at least they could earn their keep by telling everyone whose computer is infected by malware. Lousy bums haven't even got that much decency.
I get blindsided by this. Oh, Betsy Ross shoes WAIT THEY ARE A RACIST SYMBOL (points to a handful of asses on obscure sites). I haven't thought about Betsy Ross since 4th grade. Why now on shoes?
“Hey, Ok sign is racist now!” Why? (Points to a handful of obscure idiots out there.)
It seems a little too convenient that people are ready to jump on those claims. Also, it was during the heat of elections, which lends further credence to it as manipulation.
I am prepared to be wrong.
Yes, they should be, just as conservatives shrieking about "groomers" should be ostracized. Oh, wait, that's you. You do that.
Find the quote where I said that. Find a quote where I ever even used that word, please.
even the ADL gets it
"It should be noted that 88 can be found in non-extremist contexts. The number is used by ham radio operators to mean "hugs" or "hugs and kisses." Also, a number of NASCAR drivers, including several very well-known ones, have used the number 88, resulting in various automobile stickers and other forms of merchandise sporting that number."
It's also 69, but for two fatasses.
The State of Maine has a Route 69 -- it runs 35 miles between Pittsfield and Winterport and somehow never seems to have any route signs on it...
Back when the Maine Legislature assigned plates based on seat number instead of district number (so that the leaders got low numbers), the state rep from the college town of Orono happened to have seat number 69. A bright blue plate with the number 69 on it.
I forget how many plates he wound up going through -- it was dozens -- but he eventually gave up and drove without any. (Or the state gave up -- which probably is more likely.) All the cops knew the story and I still remember that red car driving through town with no plates on it.
And the next term, they instead issued plate numbers based on district numbers and he wound up with a different number, which no one stole.
Milepost 420 on I-80 is in Colorado, and they eventually gave up marking that one, I read they started marking 420.01 or something.
The highway of the beast (US 666) was renumbered. https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/us666.cfm
In the 1990s my city had to take extra precautions to keep "Gay St" signs from disappearing.
In West Los Angeles (ie, right next to UCLA), in the 80s, it was Stoner Ave. I can't tell you how many dorm rooms I visited that had one of those street signs nailed to a wall.
I always wondered why they didn't just put a blank sign up, a sign with everything but a number on it. It still would have been green and reflective, all the cops and DOT guys would have known that it was mile 420 for any report or anything they needed to write, etc.
As an aside, the thing about living in the Northeast is fathoming the concept of *having* 420 miles of a straight road in the same state. I-95 in Maine is only something like 293 miles -- it's either 17 or 19 miles in NH depending on how you measure it, and the NorthEast Corridor, the rail line between Boston and Washington, DC is only 457 miles.
But I still would have just put up a blank green plate.
“I-95 in Maine is only something like 293 miles“
How did I know this was going to be inaccurate?
Not sure what that's about... Wikipedia says I95 in Maine is 303 miles long which is only about 3.5% away from the estimate given (which was prefixed by 'something like'). Doesn't seem to take away from the underlying point that distances in the west can be a lot bigger than those we generally find on the east coast.
It is, admittedly, only off by a small margin. But of course it’s very much in the style of Dr. Ed— off on a completely tangential anecdote complete with inaccurate “facts” that are either dimly remembered or heard second-hand from the guy at the end of the bar in Dover-Foxcroft who is 6 labatts deep. How long did it take you to Google the correct number? 2.5 seconds?
IS it the correct number?!?
Because you weren't born yesterday?
OK. The last time I went through customs in Houlton, which was in the '80s, the highest number I saw was 293. I might even have a picture of it -- I know I took one.
Now, if I am going to be accused of falsehood, I get to waste the bandwidth defending myself -- and there are two things that Flatlanders need to understand about the mileage numbers on Maine's I-95.
First, the Maine Turnpike predated the Interstate Highway System, but it was a replacement for US Route #1 and started in Kittery - even after New Hampshire had built its portion of I-95, one had to exit it and go through the Portsmouth (NH) traffic circle and take the Route 1 bridge across the river to Maine, and then go to the west to pick up the turnpike. When the I-95 bridge was built in the mid-70s, it shortened the trip by several miles because one could now go straight from NH to ME.
Second, the Maine Turnpike went through Lewiston (still does) while the "back way" (which at one point became I-95) which went through Brunswick was 20 miles shorter And then third, even though I-95 was routed up the back way, it *still* was about 10 miles shorter to get off at what used to be Exit 6A and take I-295 through Portland than to take what used to be Exit 9 which was (and I believe still is) the mapped route.
Money has a lot to do with this -- the turnpike costs money and they want the tourists on it to get money from them. My advice for southbound drivers is what it has been for 40 years -- ignore *all* signs, keep left, and stop when the road does, i.e. at what used to be Exit 6A.
Attack me if you wish, but I highly doubt that the MDOT knows exactly how many miles long that road is -- it depends on how you measure it. Lawyers can't understand this?!?
Again, dimly remembered “facts” from the 80s when the answer is at your fingertips.
Superfluous anecdotes about other highways. I’m surprised you didn’t mention the B&M baked bean factory off 205, frankly.
Third, I’m quite sure maine DOT knows how many miles of I-95 are in their state.
How about this?
https://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/gay-street-goes-both-ways/view/google/
I am one of a few people who got a photo of this sign published. The Wall Street Journal Best of the Web Today gave me a photo credit for my version of the photo. Starting November 7, 2007, Gay Street goes both ways.
EV. I respectfully disagree.
If a police officer can be fired for being a "white supremacist" -- and that is what the review board process had the power of doing -- then it isn't an opinion anymore.
I think the appropriate thing here would be a finding of defamation and an award of one dollar.
I agree. The precise countour of white supremacy is a matter of opinion, but the core accusation is not. Defendants were either criminally stupid or criminally malicious, and are probably the kind of people who think it's cool to conduct an insurrection against the city of Atlanta because the city is building a police training facility.
Or cool to burn down a Wendy's because one of their violent "brothers" gets shot by police for not complying with orders and for trying to run them over.
I wonder: can an officer be fired for being anti-white?
related:
https://kstp.com/kstp-news/disagreement-over-post-board-measure-banning-officers-from-having-ties-to-hate-groups/
A police officer can be fired for being a white supremacist.
They can't be fired for being an alleged white supremacist.
"through social media and filing a complaint with the Citizen's Complaint Authority, Defendants commented upon the hand signal and upon Plaintiff"
So a false complaint was filed without consequences. The law ought to discourage that kind of behavior.
Filing a false complaint is probably actionable - but the action would have to be taken by the Citizen Complaint Authority (or whatever agency they report to). That is not an action that the accused cop has standing to bring.
"That is not an action that the accused cop has standing to bring."
It should be. You know the complaint agency won't.
I hope professor Volokh appreciates how his no-moderation ideology has carried us to such deep, rich, and not at all insane takes, such as (checks notes) that cops should arrest people, and courts should jail them, for filing factually-accurate complaints.
"cops should arrest people, and courts should jail them, for filing factually-accurate complaints"
Who said arrest? The law can punish thru civil actions also, which is what we are discussing.
And it was not "factually-accurate", it was an OK sign, not a "white supremacy" symbol.
Noted white supremacy use: "As it moved into its third century of use in politics, in the 21st century the sign was used by president Barack H. Obama." wikipedia
Prof. Volokh has expressly claimed to enforce civility standards rather than to apply a no-moderation policy. He has repeatedly censored liberals and libertarians for criticizing or making fun of conservatives, either removing disapproved words or banning a disfavored commenter. It would be a mistake to confuse his leniency toward conservative comments with a no-moderation policy.
He is entitled to impose viewpoint-driven censorship here. His playground, his rules. Hypocrites have rights, too.
Anyone who thinks that the ok sign is racist is so imbecilic that they should be institutionalized to avoid them accidentally harming themselves.
And there was no malice? They said it proved he was a fucking racist. How can you call someone a racist with no malice? Even if it’s true, which in this case it almost certainly wasn’t, it’s obvious by inspection that labeling someone a racist includes ill will.
"Anyone who thinks that the ok sign is…"
They think whatever their leaders tell them to think. Tomorrow they may be told to think the exact opposite, and they’ll all be onboard with it.
bevis, ask one of the lawyers who comments here about the use of, "malice," and "actual malice," in the context of defamation. Or, if you already understand the technical stuff, then I do not understand your comment.
Actual malice is still a controversial concept. If it applies to any government employee, then the Ohio court has to apply the standard until the Supreme Court of the U. S. comes to its senses, but maybe the lower courts could get wise and start begging the U. S. Supremes to change their minds.
You realize that "actual malice" only applies when the prospective plaintiff is a public figure, right?
Maybe you should brush up on "the technical stuff" before you complain about not understanding things.
Michael P, are you the lawyer I suggested bevis should ask?
I don't have to be a lawyer to know you are -- as usual -- full of shit. I just need a brain.
Bevis, in defamation law, 'actual malice' is a legal term of art that does not mean 'ill will.' It means knowledge or recklessness about the statement being false.
I'm a little surprised to see that "white supremacist" is "a term not subject to being proven true or false." I easily get that with "racist", but "white supremacist" seems much more specific and factual to me.
And here it is a claim that a particular hand gesture means something. Does it or not seems like something a court can determine, like what a raised middle finger means.
But if that’s so, how can a court ever determine that a particular bunch of letters strewn on a piece of paper means something? Why aren’t what letter-jumbles mean, or for that matter noises that come from people’s mouths, also just a matter of opinion?
What’s the difference?
Look somewhere other than the Handful of Randos on the Internet Dictionary. Any number of widely used dictionaries will do.
Dhuey — I was a little surprised by that too. Seems to me that is something a fair reporter would think to investigate before publishing, and if nothing turned up, not publish. Problem is, my standard for fairness in publishing is somewhat more restrictive than EV’s standard for what passes constitutional muster as opinion.
As a practical matter, if you want an internet where Joe Keyboard—who is judgement proof—is empowered to publish anything at all, anonymously, world-wide, without prior editing, then you also want a world where defamation is routine, unavoidable, and goes unpunished.
Prior to the passage of Section 230, liability for defamation shared alike by publishers and contributors delivered a mostly-fairer standard of publishing. Editors assigned to read contributions prior to publication were free to choose and use standards more protective than the law strictly required, and at the vast majority of publishing businesses, they did do that. Section 230 has a lot to answer for, and that is one of the big ones.
I think characterizing someone as a white supremacist is a statement of fact, not a statement of opinion.
If the existence of discriminatory motives is not the existence of a fact, then discriminatory motives cannot be proved and disctimination torts based on motivation violate Due Process. You canmt have a law subjecting somebody to legal penalties over nothing more than somebody’s opinion.
If the existence discriminatory intent is a fact provable by discrimination plaintiff, then it must also be a fact provable by libel plaintiffs.
Remember that urgency and perfectionism are said to be white supremacist attributes. The term is meaningless except to signal that you are the kind of person who likes to call others white supremacists.
Which one of these guys is you, John F. Carr? Are you the Daily Stormer reporter at 8:00? One of those depicted at from 0:20 to 0:40? You seem articulate, so maybe the guy at 3:00?
Meet new Jerry, same as the old Jerry, still trying to hook up with guys.
In White Surpremercist News, I'm surprised Penn State is still having those occasional "White Out" Games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Out_(Penn_State)#:~:text=The%20White%20Out%20is%20a%20tradition%20at%20the,as%20%22the%20best%20atmosphere%20in%20college%20football.%22%20
Frank
What's not being mentioned here is officer training -- *IF* the hand signal actually is a white supremacist sign -- and I'd more believe snow in Southern California, although I believe that did happen recently -- then the department ought to have told the officers that it means that and hence to avoid using it.
And if the department didn't do this, then the DEPARTMENT ought to have taken responsibility and defended their officer for not knowing.
And let's blame the FBI while we are at it because they are supposed to be keeping track of this stuff....
No. Telling people not to do normal things is letting the mentally ill leftists control discourse. They should be rounded up and gassed, not humored.
You are making it more difficult for Prof. Volokh to try to defend himself -- by claiming to be enforcing ostensible "civility standards" -- the next time he censors a liberal or libertarian for making fun of or criticizing (or describing accurate) conservatives at this blog.
Also being ignored by some observers is the content of Officer Ryan Olthaus' ("Michael Ryan's") Facebook page (which was copied before he deleted it).
What did it say?
Snows pretty frequently in Southern California, they have these things called "Mountains" tallest of which San Gorgonio, 10,000 feet is a mere 80 miles from Dodger Stadium, Mt Baldy at 4,000 little over 30 miles.
Frank
The other question I ask is what would have happened if a Black officer was under the exact same set of circumstances.
The Black officer makes a hand signal (presumably to reduce radio traffic) and it is defined as meaning "Kill Whitey." And the officer is thus defined as being a member of the Black Panthers or something.
And someone then goes onto social media and describes him as a "dangerous n*****" and lists where his wife and children live. Maybe even the elementary school his children attend and the elderly housing project where his mother resides alone.
Would we tolerate this?
If we wouldn't (which I hope), why not?
And how is what actually happened any different?!?
You really ought to be a reoccurring character on Saturday Night Live.
Saturday Night Live is still on??? Any with Chevy Chase doing his Senescent J imitation?
This kind of stupidity will only end when it becomes financially ruinous to the idiots making these kind of ridiculous allegations.
Why do you want to ruin Republican candidates and Volokh Conspiracy fans?
Don't care who it is, this kind of stupid hypersensitivity needs to end.
No one cares your feelings are hurt, no one cares what people think about you or how you are treated for any reason whatsoever.
As I was always told growing up, life isn't fair, don't be so naive to think it is, or even that it should be. No one owes you anything and the onus is on you to do whatever is necessary to overcome whatever obstacles people place in your way.
This blog's censorship record indicates someone cares when conservatives' feelings are hurt.
Somewhat on topic in this thread: The New OK (Drive-By Truckers music video).
Would you rather be falsey accused on social media of being a racist or would you rather be a victim of racism in employment, housing, or education? Each of the latter is illegal. The former, apparently, is not. Yet, in this day and age, the first is far more harmful for one's future prospects than is the latter. The law should not only catch up to that reality, it should reinstate the common law (and natural) right to reputation, which has become virtually dormant under the post-1960s free speech absolutist revolution. (It is a revolution that grants more rights to pornographers than it does to a man's reputation, which is, ironically, perverse).
It seems that free speech would be better served if speakers had to think twice about using moral slurs against their political adversaries. It would discipline them to exercise their speech in more productive ways that aim toward the truth rather than mere political expediency. After all, what's the point of free speech unless there is some good that its exercise may help us to acquire?
Is there any evidence the description of this police officer was inaccurate? Have you reviewed the relevant Facebook page?
Conservative bigots have rights, too . . . but not the right to be protected against being labeled bigots.
Seen this guy, Nieporent? When I predicted years ago that Section 230 would unleash a flood of calls for government to censor speech, this was the guy I had in mind. You laughed. His ranks have become legion. Just look at this thread for more examples.
1) He took the same position you did above: that speech like this should be suppressed.
2) Nothing he said had anything to do with Section 230.
Nieporent. Nope, he did not take the same position I did. He wants government censorship. I vehemently oppose government censorship. He wants government censorship because Section 230 delivered (as I predicted years ago) conditions which made folks hate expressive freedom, and demand that government step in to put a stop to it.
I favor private editing prior to publication. I insist on government policies to encourage diversity and profusion among private expressive outlets. That is to assure private editing does not become so comprehensively and uniformly biased that it amounts to censorship. Section 230 has empowered that kind of uniformity and bias. I foresaw that too, which made it easy to predict demands for government censorship would follow. And here we are.
You are an internet utopian, apparently a view derived in your case from libertarian ideology. Your ideology cannot make it a real-world possibility that the internet can deliver to everyone a power to accomplish world-wide, anonymous, cost-free publishing, with impunity against charges of defamation, and without editing prior to publication. In the entire history of publishing, no power like that has ever been available to anyone. That is not because of rules against it. It is because it has always been a practical impossibility to build durable means to accomplish it.
Nope. You vehemently support it. You have the same goal: to prevent this speech from being published. And you endorse the same mechanism: the threat of government sanctions.
And you pretend otherwise because you simply are not smart enough to grasp that the application of defamation law is government censorship. That's the whole point of NYT v. Sullivan and its progeny. It is not "private editing" if done facing down the barrel of government sanctions. There is no real world distinction between telling someone he can't say something and deterring all the publishers out there from letting someone say that thing.
Me saying, "I don't want to publish that; it doesn’t meet my standards" is private editing.
Me saying, "I won't publish that because a court may order me to pay money if I do" is not private editing.
The whole point of § 230 is to remove that government threat in the second example, so that any editing that takes place is truly private. The only reason to remove § 230 is to keep that sword of Damocles over the publisher's head so that he'll be too scared to publish something.
I was interested in the lack of attetion to the "limp-dicked" allegation. Of course we have no reason to believe that the accuser has any evidence for the limp-dickedness and can therefore assume that it's just a meaningless insult like "racist" or "fascist".
"Limp-dicked" seems comparable to "whore" in that if meant seriously it might inflict serious reputational damage on the target. And I imagine that there was a time when calling a woman a "whore" in circumstances where bystanders might believe it, would get the speaker into possible trouble. Likewise I imagine there are circumstances in which calling a man "limp-dicked" could get you a punch in the mouth.
Last summer I was fishing with a friend that I met when we were both in the Navy. We'd stopped for gas and it was my turn to pay. You couldn't pay at the pump, so I went inside. I thought nothing of using the same hand signals that we used on the Flight Deck to tell him to start pumping gas. Now I'm wondering.
Wondering is okay. Never stop wondering. It can help you keep up.
Context matters a lot, in many situations. Something I expect you already know.
"Let's go, Brandon!" is a completely innocuous sentence. But, somehow, in the past 2-4 years, it now also means, "Fuck you, [President] Biden!" In fact, I suspect that, nowadays, 99.9% of usage is this latter meaning.
Anyone who might be arguing that "Let's go, Brandon!" is incapable of being offensive, since the words themselves are as anodyne as possible is . . . well, being silly. Because: context.
I've seen the Reverend mention the guy's Facebook post. Is there a link to it anywhere? . . . maybe seeing what he wrote in his public posts would support or weaken a claim of racism?
I perused it when this case was prominent some time ago.
Someone had saved it (and posted it) before the officer courageously deleted it.
The content? I figured Officer Olthaus for a big Volokh Conspiracy fan.
I don’t think you’ve got “Let’s go, Brandon! ” right.
What happened was that the crowd was chanting “Fuck you, Biden!” and the dollymop media hackette interviewing the driver pretended that the crowd was chanting “Let’s go, Brandon!”
Thus the point was not that some other way of saying “Fuck off, Biden!” had been invented, what made it viral was that it was a self inflicted joke, by a cookiecutter lefty media airhead, at the expense of the media, exemplified by this hopeless, but instinctive and automatic, attempt by said hackette to gloss over the chanting crowd not feeling too sweet on Biden.
Thus while “Let’s go, Brandon!” might be used as a polite euphemism for “Fuck off, Biden!” it is much more usually used as a jeer against the media, whenever they’re lying, or trying to conceal Biden or Buttigieg or Kamala’s latest idiocy.
It’s not about Biden, it’s about the media. The folks on the right don’t care about which particular lefty muppet the media are trying to prop up today, they’re poking fun at the media.
A bunch of mouth-breathing car race fans (or was it 'rasslin fans) screaming profanity and making fun of journalists and the president . . . instant heroes among the Volokh Conspiracy's target audience of downscale, disaffected, bigoted culture war losers.
How you guys want to spend the time you have remaining until replacement is entirely your call, of course.
On October 2, 2021, racing driver Brandon Brown was being interviewed by NBC Sports reporter Kelli Stavast at the Talladega Superspeedway in Alabama, following his victory in the NASCAR Xfinity Series Sparks 300 race which was shortened due to darkness.[11][12] Fans were chanting "Fuck Joe Biden",[13] and this became audible to viewers of the broadcast.[14][1] On the live broadcast, while wearing a headset,[15] reporter Stavast stated, "You can hear the chants from the crowd, 'Let's go, Brandon!'"[3][11][16] It is unclear whether Stavast misunderstood the chant or whether she intentionally misquoted it; a reporter with the Associated Press said that the chant was "at first difficult to make out"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let's_Go_Brandon
I am waiting for the day with the trolls who practice ironic fascism to convince people that the "Vulcan salute" into a white supremacist hand signal.
It's even more ambiguous than you think.
Massad Ayoob, whose name you know well if you've been around guns, was on a training gig in South America. Latino men, macho, cops, macho squared, training for a SWAT team, macho cubed. Ayoob was please with their motivation and progress and flashed a circled OK sign.
Their commander took him aside and confronted him about it. Demanded to know what was wrong. Ayoob kept trying to explain the students were doing fine, and then it came into focus. Their commander exploded
"So why are you calling them homosexual?!".
Yes, there are many many handshapes and gestures that mean X in one country and Y in a different country. As an American, I was and am very used to using the "Thumbs-up" gesture to show approval. But in my world travels, I quickly learned that there are places one should not use this handshape. We all get that. (In scuba diving, the "OK" symbol is used to mean, 'okay.' The Thumbs-up means "I'm about to head up to the surface.", or "I need to surface.", or, "You should now surface." And, incidentally, the OK handshape is the letter F and also the numeral 9 in American Sign Language...just to complicate things further.)
Last I heard, Michael Mann's lawsuit against Mark Steyn is still going on. That was more clearly a case of sarcasm yet the courts allow it to continue.
It most certainly was not sarcasm. It might have been rhetorical hyperbole, but it wasn't sarcasm.
I'm interested in the hypothetical counter-example "actually falsely accusing someone of particular actions (e.g., falsely asserting that a police officer had shouted racial slurs at a suspect) could indeed be defamatory". Suppose the officer had spoken a word not commonly accepted to be a racial slur (say "thug" or even just "jerk") and a person then publicly reported that as a "racial slur". Is that potentially defamatory or also just an expression of opinion?
It would clearly be just an expression of opinion if the person doing the reporting actually quoted the words that were used ("thug," "jerk") and then described those as racial slurs. That would be an opinion based on disclosed facts.
If the reporter said, "He used racial slurs" without specifying which, that sounds closer to a jury question.
When womens first started joining Marine Corpse (HT Barry Hussein) Fighter Squadrons there was some discussion (brief, they were Marines) if the term "BRAA (I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you) call" (pronounced "Bra" like the women's garment and that annoying word woke "Bra"'s call each other) needed to be changed, to um, something less "Bra-ey",
According to my daughters, it hasn't.
Frank "Where's your bra, bra?"
https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/glossary/braa/
Most people don't know that "white power sign" is the same as an ok gesture. I haven't heard of it, and neither has the (presumably street-wise) cop. So most people reading that the cop made a "white power sign" will take away that he made some unique and unambiguous sign. Without physically describing the sign, the statement seems like defamation by omission of crucial context.
I think a jury could reasonably find sufficient specificity in this allegation. Consider the claim: an on-duty policeman made a hand gesture to signal his support for white supremacy. And he did this specifically during a meeting held on the subject of racial justice.
Would *you* be comfortable with a (hypothetical) policeman in your community who engaged in such behavior?
So, if (hypothetically) the allegation is false, a jury could reasonably find reputational harm and could assess damages.
At least this would be the case before the U. S. Supreme Court precedents starting in the 1960s.
If the Ohio high court has to take this case away from the jury because of U. S. Supreme court precedent, so much the worse for U. S. Supreme Court precedent.
"The Complaint does not allege actual malice on the part of Defendant Niesen"
Yes, it does
Because no one actually believes that the "ok" sign is a "White supremacist" power sign, so claiming it is prima facia proof of "actual malice"