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Tennessee Bans Pornographic Performances by "Male or Female Impersonators" Where Minors Can See Them
The newly enacted statute provides:
… "Adult cabaret entertainment" … [m]eans adult-oriented performances that are harmful to minors, as that term is defined in § 39-17-901, and that feature topless dancers, go-go dancers, exotic dancers, strippers, male or female impersonators, or similar entertainers; …
"Entertainer" means a person who provides: (A) Entertainment within an adult-oriented establishment, … or (B) A performance of actual or simulated specified sexual activities, including removal of articles of clothing or appearing unclothed, [both] regardless of whether a fee is charged or accepted for the performance …;
It is an offense for a person to perform adult cabaret entertainment:
(A) On public property; or
(B) In a location where the adult cabaret entertainment could be viewed by a person who is not an adult ….
To understand this, one has to read § 39-17-901, which provides:
"Harmful to minors" means that quality of any description or representation, in whatever form, of nudity, sexual excitement, sexual conduct, excess violence or sadomasochistic abuse when the matter or performance:
- Would be found by the average person applying contemporary community standards to appeal predominantly to the prurient, shameful or morbid interests of minors;
- Is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable for minors; and
- Taken as whole lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific values for minors ….
"Prurient interest" means a shameful or morbid interest in sex;
And it's also important to know that the Supreme Court has held that, even as to "harmful to minors" material (also known as "obscene as to minors"), "to be obscene 'such expression must be, in some significant way, erotic.'"
This therefore means that the bill doesn't ban drag shows generally, or even drag shows that can be seen by minors. Rather, it just bans drag shows that could be viewed by minors (or are on public property) that depict "nudity, sexual excitement, sexual conduct, excess violence or sadomasochistic abuse" that are "in some significant way, erotic," appeal to minors' interest in sex, and otherwise satisfy the three-prong.
Bans on distributing "harmful to minors" material to minors have been upheld (see Ginsberg v. N.Y. (1968), which used the then-existing definition, but which has been understood to justify the more modern definition used by the Tennessee statute). Likewise, courts have generally upheld restrictions on displaying such materials where minors can see them. So the law may well be consistent with the First Amendment, but precisely because it narrowly focuses on essentially pornographic material (in the sense of requiring depiction of nudity or sex in an erotic way that appeals to minors' interest in sex). Drag shows that lack such material remain protected by the First Amendment, and aren't covered by the law (though of course there might be worry that some prosecutors will overfocus on the "male or female impersonator" portion of the law and won't pay enough attention to the other requirements).
At the same time, there are three possible twists. First, the law applies to "public property" even where minors aren't present (e.g., if someone rents space from a government entity and puts on a show while making sure that minors aren't admitted). This might still be upheld as a reasonable, viewpoint-neutral restriction on speech on government property that isn't a traditional public forum. But it's a bit complicated.
Second, one could argue that specifically targeting "male or female impersonators" makes the law an impermissibly content-based classification even within the First Amendment exception for "harmful to minors" speech that's displayed to minors. See R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992) (holding that such content-based restrictions even within an unprotected category of speech are presumptively unconstitutional).
Third, to the extent that the ban on "male or female impersonator[s]" necessarily discriminates based on sex—a woman dressed as a woman isn't a female impersonator, but a man dressed precisely the same way is one—it might violate the Equal Protection Clause, which the Supreme Court has generally held presumptively forbids sex classifications.
Note, though, that even if the statute is struck down on the second or third grounds, the same conduct (except perhaps pornographic shows in spaces rented from the government where minors are excluded) could be banned by a general prohibition on "harmful to minors" performances where minors are present, and might indeed already be banned by Tennessee law that regulates sexually themed performances (though I'm not positive about that).
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"and may indeed already be banned by Tennessee law that regulates sexually themed performances."
So the whole law may be political performance with no effect, depriving federal courts of jurisdiction to decide the discrimination question.
It's possibly already banned (I've revised the text slightly to make clear that I'm not sure). But I don't think this would generally deprive federal courts of jurisdiction (and certainly wouldn't if the punishment under this law is more serious than under the preexisting law).
Let's say showing porn to kids is a 2 year felony and showing drag queen porn to kids is a 3 year felony. If I am sentenced to 3 years under the harsher law I can use the enhanced sentence to get into federal court. If I merely intend to show drag queen porn to kids, can I get a pre-enforcement injunction limiting charges to the lesser offense? (Assume both laws come with whatever "harmful to minors" language is required to make the targeted speech unprotected.)
Give an example of “drag queen porn.”
I know it when I (don't) see it
"Let’s say showing porn to kids is a 2 year felony and showing drag queen porn to kids is a 3 year felony. If I am sentenced to 3 years under the harsher law I can use the enhanced sentence to get into federal court."
No. Abstention under Younger v. Harris, 401 U.S. 37 (1971), would bar federal interference with state prosecution while pending in the state court system. Federal habeas corpus relief would be barred by 28 U.S.C. § 2254(d), in that the state court adjudication would not have resulted in a decision that was contrary to, or involved an unreasonable application of, clearly established Federal law, as determined by the Supreme Court of the United States or resulted in a decision that was based on an unreasonable determination of the facts in light of the evidence presented in the State court proceeding. (This assumes that the claim had been litigated in the state courts. If not, failure to exhaust state remedies would bar the claim under § 2254(b).)
"If I merely intend to show drag queen porn to kids, can I get a pre-enforcement injunction limiting charges to the lesser offense? (Assume both laws come with whatever “harmful to minors” language is required to make the targeted speech unprotected.)"
If the targeted speech is unprotected, no.
The federal govt has no jurisdiction or authority in these matters. No one's natural rights are being infringed. Seems very reasonable. And with the banning of sexual mutilation, TN is ahead of most States.
Drag shows might get suggestive at times, maybe even blue, but they are not particularly sexual. And that goes doubly then trebly for drag queen reading hours. The people who think reading hours are a live sex show are the people we have to keep an eye on, not the drag queens reading Dr. Seuss.
Well, doubly then trebly = sextily, no?
Tushé…
...and so ends the comedy portion of the thread.
"drag queen reading hours"
If only it was possible to read to children without looking like freaks in woman-face.
Sounds like Bob’s attempt to read “Freedom Day the Asher Way” met with some resistance at his public library.
Drag queens are clowns. That's all that you need to understand about these reading hours (and other drag performances for children). You wouldn't object to a clown reading to kids, would you?
John Wayne Gacy?
Clowns are very much creepier than drag queens. (Is there any drag queen comparable to John Wayne Gacy?)
Clowns with huge tits wearing fishnet hose and “fuck me” heels.
You're finding these way more salacious than any kid ever would.
Seems sufficient for yiu not to like it.
Are you arguing it’s obscene and should be prohibited?
I’m arguing that it’s got sexual undertones and shouldn’t be shown to small children. I don’t know about obscene. I’d guess that some are and some aren’t.
It has the same sexual undertones as Disney princesses and Chewbacca costumes, which is to say adults can see sexual undertones in everything when they put their mind to it.
This is becoming a mighty personal and nuanced but judgement you want everyone to follow.
Does Ursula the Sea Witch have sexual undertones?
To bring this whole bizarre thread full circle, I always thought Ursula looked like a drag queen.
Does Ursula have a show on Burbon Street?
Ursula is a villain. Children hate her.
If you want sexy cartoon characters think Judy Jetson and Daphne on Scooby Doo.
Ursula is a villain. Children hate her.
First, the second does not follow from the first; children can have idiosyncratic taste.
Second, this gives the game away. You're not worried about exposure to sexuality at all, or you wouldn't care about hate or like.
I think he was kidding. Besides which, he doesn't even mention Speed Racer's girlfriend Trixie? Come on!
I think it's highly unlikely that any drag queen doing a kid's gig is breaking out the fishnets and the "fuck me" heels (and I am not sure what you think those are), if for no reason other than the fact that these are low-stakes, low-pressure gigs that don't merit that level of drag. Ditto with the breast plates.
Take a spin through google image search. Most of these queens are wearing baggy, colorful dresses. They're probably just putting on something comfortable, an easy mug, a cheap and easy wig. No one's getting sexy, because sexy hurts.
So you plan to pass a law banning women from wearing fishnet hose and "fuck me" heels where they may possibly be viewed by a minor?
I dunno about a law but you can say don’t wear them to school. Schools generally have dress codes and clothing that reveals too much is generally forbidden.
Just look at what I’m saying and don’t expand it where it isn’t.
“Fuck me heels”
Oy vey… tell me you’re a boomer without telling me you’re a boomer
I’d tell you how I know about them but it’s TMI. It was our daughters advising their mother that made us familiar with the phrase. So not so much a boomer thing.
If only kids weren't entertained by people who dress up in costumes and put on voices.
not the drag queens reading Dr. Seuss
As long as one is OK with Drag Queen Story Hour (DQSH) as a model for learning how to live queerly. See Drag pedagogy: The playful practice of queer imagination in early childhood.
If course it's about normalizing and grooming. That's what they do.
'it artfully invites children into building communities that are more hospitable to queer knowledge and experience. …'
This sounds both laudable and beneficial.
sure...
Well obviously not to bigots.
Why not just stop trying to blur the lines and expose kids to more and more content that's more and more sexualized?
What if you wanted to protect kids instead?
Protect kids from what? Watching old clips of Benny Hill? Bugs Bunny dressed as Brunhilde? Should Mrs. Doubtfire be re-rated to NC-17, or MA? What are you protecting them from?
Why are you conflating cross dressing with drag? Is it because you're not very educated on these issues?
“Why are you conflating cross dressing with drag?”
Wow, I have way underestimated how stupid you are. I mean, my opinion of you was low. Real low. And I somehow still missed the mark by a mile.
https://www.transweet.com/blogs/news/drag-queen-vs-cross-dressing
Wow you really thought Ms. Doubtfire an RuPaul were the exact same thing. good grief
The distinction is one of degree, solely.
So is murder and manslaughter.
You thought they were synonyms. They obviously are not.
You're like Nige, you just argue reflexively without knowing anything.
At least you don't bootlick the CCP like he does.
Look out there’s a Chinese spy balloon right behind you!
(Oh no there isn’t!)
I fly a $12 hobby balloon and the Democrat Woke Military shoot $800k worth of missiles at it.
Your CCP masters have nothing to worry about. Between owning half our politicians, stealing our technological secrets, and a Pink Pentagon, you rice-dicks are gonna clean the clocks of our homo’s and trannies. I'm kinda looking forward to it.
Sounds like you're the CCP bootlicker.
BCD: “ you just argue reflexively without knowing anything.”
It is to laugh…
That’s some advocacy to blur lines and not protect kids, yeah. That’s exactly how you do it when you want to approach kids and bypass protection of kids. How about just not doing it?
Respectfully, that’s not the issue. The premise of drag queen story hour is that drag is a costume and it’s no more freakish than clown story hour or Superman story hour or Catholic archbishop story hour would be. It’s just a costume.
What opponents of drag queen story hour really object to is that it normalizes homosexuality. Since no one is telling the kids they’re supposed to find drag creepy, they’re not finding it creepy. Instead they’re finding it a normal part of life. That’s the real objection.
Woman-face is as normal as black-face.
No, it doesn’t do that at all. Many drag queens are gay. But many are straight men who enjoy wearing women’s clothing. And even if the drag queen reading a story to children is gay, it’s no different than if the drag queen isn’t.
You’re confusing the things people dream up out of ignorance with reality.
And as Art Linklelter used to say "Kid's say the Darndest Thangs"
what happens when an innocent 5 year old says
""""What the fucks wrong with you, faggot??""""
I know, kids today don't use those words (I wouldn't know, like WC Fields, Children are a good walk, spoiled)
They sure did when I was a kid though, we'd drive a substitute teacher to tears goofing on his Platform Shoes (remember those? they were pretty hideous)
Frank
Regardless of how benign you find it, why should the school/public library be flogging it in front of young children? We’ve gone from sexualizing small children being criminal to it being vigorously defended in what seems like a week.
This is what our continually worsening extremist culture does. The best interest of the children isn’t even on the list of goals any more.
The fact drag queens exist has nothing to do with you Bevis. They just exist. You calling their existence (presumably) “flaunting” is a you problem. It has nothing to do with them.
And nobody in this context was sexualizing children last week, this week, or next week. The freak out is all from the imaginations of some of the worst people in our public life. Some legitimately believe it, though they themselves have never witnessed anything like they fear. And others are more like Chris Rufo: banging out culture war outrages to keep the rubes entertained.
This isn't sexualising anyone. The extremists are the people seeking to ban it, desperate to restore some lost WASP heterodoxy from TV versions of the fifties.
"...and it’s no more freakish than clown story hour or Superman story hour or Catholic archbishop story hour would be."
Let me know where and when such an event occurred.
Clowns and Catholic archbishops are both creepier than drag queens.
Not creepy:
– Acting normal.
– Being a good example.
- Taking no for an answer and going away.
– Not trying to push your proclivity or some other agenda onto kids.
Screaming about kids books being gay porn is none of those things, yet it's fundamental to your outlook.
You must really, really want access to kids. For some reason.
You really, really want to ban books and enforce 'normality' via restrictive laws.
Yeah, kids need to be protected. Stay away from them with your pornographic books.
Pornographic books:
https://pen.org/banned-books-florida/
At the Mountain’s Base, by Traci Sorell and Weshoyot Alvitre
Before She Was Harriet, by Lesa Cline-Ransome and James E. Ransome
Chik Chak Shabbat, by Mara Rockliff and Kyrsten Brooker
Cow on the Town: Practicing the Ow Sound, by Isabella Garcia
Dreamers, by Yuyi Morales
Dumpling Soup, by Jama Kim Rattigan, and Lillian Hsu-Flanders
Fry Bread: A Native American Family Story, by Kevin Noble Maillard and Juana Martinez-Neal
The Gift of Ramadan, by Rabiah York Lumbard and Laura K. Horton
Grandfather Tang’s Story, by Ann Tompert and Robert Andrew Parker
Hush! A Thai Lullaby, by Minfong Ho and Holly Meade
Islandborn, by Junot Díaz and Leo Espinosa
Little Night/Nochecita, by Yuyi Morales
Looking for Bongo, by Eric Velásquez
Stop trying to push whatever's in those books to kids. We don't care for your input on what's not quite too pornographic.
'whatever’s in those books'
You don't even care about what's actually in them, THEY'RE PORNOGRAPHIC!!!!
The fact that you're pushing them onto kids is more than creepy enough.
That's as valid as the rest of your reasons for supporting their banning, which is to say, as fucking stupid.
...and I doubt many have done story hours.
Why aren't people allowed to decide to protect kids?
If the people of Tennessee want kids protected from indecent performances, why shouldn't the people of Tennessee get to decide? Others' children are not toys for you to play with.
(Some of) the people of 1930s Germany felt the same way, banning performances and entertainments they declared obscene, but that’s okay, it was they, the people, deciding.
It was, and if the ball had bounced a little differently it'd have been Generals Patton/MacArthur executed as "War Criminals"
or lowering their barriers to grooming....
Drag is viewed as humor but drag queen story hour for five year olds isn't about removing bigotry but recruiting and you know it. You don't have strippers doing story hour for prepuberty boys. Not appropriate.
Recruiting five year olds? By reading them stories? It's amazing. Vulnerable kids are groomed and abused and trafficked every day - but not by any drag queen story hour. So why focus on them? Because the hate for LGTBQ is more important than the kids.
There is no actual evidence that this is actually happening outside your fevered brain. You look at kids' books and you see gay porn. This a problem peculiar to yourself.
Drag shows might get suggestive at times, maybe even blue, but they are not particularly sexual.
The question being missed. Why are adults so intent in getting this content in front of 8 year olds?
The entire point of drag is promoting a sexual fetish.
30 years ago I spent a fair amount of energy trying to get in front of students promoting agriculture. Administrators all said there was no free time to give any kind of presentation, exercise.
But now, it sounds like of the drag queens don't read to the kids, it wont happen.
Why are they obsessed with kids? Weimar degenercy..good for TN. Now we need this for all America.
Well first of all it was Pizzagate and the insistence that Hilary Clinton's campaign was ordering children from a pizzeria basement, then came Qanon, that insisted that Democrats were part of a global satanic cannibal pedophile cult, this obsession with LGTBQ people as groomers and groomers is that leaking into the mainstream, meanwhile Republican politicians, Christian pastors and the Florida foster system are all pointedly ignored.
"Drag shows might get suggestive at times, maybe even blue, but they are not particularly sexual. "
The questions to ask the performer are these:
- Is a minor in your audience?
- Are your costume, performance, words, or gestures sexually suggestive?
- Are you sexually aroused by your performance?
- Are you expecting to arouse anyone in the audience?
It is not unreasonable to expect that adult sexual performances be done in front of adults only. Children cannot consent, they are children.
These things don't exist without sex classifications. Drag shows aren't some Equal Protection loophole.
"to be obscene 'such expression must be, in some significant way, erotic.'"
I wonder if simply being "erotically arousing" for the performer qualifies.
Actually no. By traditional criteria, disgusting is sufficient. They don’t have to make the viewer feel horny. As long as they depict sex, they can make the viewer feel like throwing up.
Why do they allow two men kissing on TV then? That makes most people want to throw up.
Same reason they show a man and woman kissing. Because the writer is signaling the couple are attracted to or loves each other.
Tell us again how ... fascinated you are by all that disgusting man-on-man kissing.
To all y’all homo-lovers and Pride Pox bootlickers:
Humans, like some other animals, have also evolved behavioral adaptations that mitigate pathogen threats, a so-called behavioral immune system (Ackerman et al., 2018; Lieberman & Patrick, 2018; Murray & Schaller, 2016; Schaller & Park, 2011). The behavioral immune system outputs various behaviors and attitudes that motivate pathogen avoidance.
…
One of the primary outputs of the behavioral immune system is disgust, an emotion that seems specialized for neutralizing pathogens (Curtis et al., 2011; Lieberman et al., 2018; Oaten et al., 2009; Tybur et al., 2013).
…
Some disgust elicitors—such as bodily wastes—appear to be universal across cultures, though (Curtis & Biran, 2001).
…
Regardless of what causes individual differences in disgust sensitivity, substantial evidence suggests that people who score higher on disgust sensitivity instruments tend to be more prejudiced toward gay men (Crawford et al., 2014; Inbar et al., 2009; Kam & Estes, 2016; Lai et al., 2014; Olatunji, 2008; Schein et al., 2016; Smith et al., 2011; Terrizzi et al., 2010, 2012).
...
In other words, it’s a perfectly normal human response to be disgusted by homosexuals who, on accident or on purpose, ingest a lot of human feces. In fact it’s so normal that homosexual disgust is found in every culture.
Most human beings are like me and not like you shit-eating freaks. The Science says so.
Source: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13684302211067151
'Most human beings are like me and not like you shit-eating freaks. The Science says so.'
No, I don't think so. But good for you identifying your prejudices as rooted in downright freudian neuroses.
This is from the discussion section:
“ Disgust sensitivity was related to both antipathy toward gay men and lesbian women, which is not consistent with the notion that the relation results from the association of gay men with anal intercourse (Kiss et al., 2020).”
Let me guess BCD— you didn’t read that far.
He also seems to think that 'people who score higher on disgust sensitivity' represent 'normality,' whatever that is, based on no evidence whatsoever.
Some disgust elicitors—such as bodily wastes—appear to be universal across cultures, though (Curtis & Biran, 2001).
Don’t be a science denier. Or you’re gonna need cover up your I ❤️ Pfizer tattoo.
'people who score higher on disgust sensitivity' makes you an outlier, and it's not prescriptive, it's the kind of thing that might be useful in helping overcome your prejudices during therapy.
Once again, you are quoting from the abstract. They are merely describing other people’s work, to get to the actual author’s conclusion YOU HAVE TO READ BEYOND THE FIRST TWO PAGES
lmao you think the abstract is two f’n pages long? lol wtf. It’s the first four sentences. lol wow
Check the PDF version, you can see the abstract ends above the “Keywords” section. lmao
You’re like some Dunning Kruger stereotype.
Abstracts don't make arguments or establish facts; they are mere fractals of the whole paper.
You didn’t read through to the conclusion! You keep quoting the characterization of prior work!
I'm using their established facts to make my argument.
Holy Jesus, can you not understand that?
“I’m using their established facts to make my argument.“
Then you should have quoted THAT study, because the one you did link to says the exact opposite of what you claimed!
See all those names with years after them enclosed in parentheses? in my quotes?
If I was using the authors' conclusions to build my argument I would've cited them.
Do you really not understand this basic argumentation?
Your argument is you don't like poo-poo therefore gay people bad. You're a sexual awakening away from a daiper fetish.
I guess I don’t because I am truly mystified why you would cite a paper for a proposition that is expressly disclaimed in the paper’s conclusion
Because they have all the facts I needed to make my argument in one convenient place.
lol wtf, this isn’t rocket science .
What facts? You haven’t quoted any of the statistical analysis from this paper
Are those the only facts that exist in the paper?
wow, you are really stepping out of your comfort zone on this one, aren't you?
What facts? The authors of this paper reached the opposite conclusion you did.
Do you mean alternative facts? That would make sense
I think lesbians are pretty hot though. Not the gross manly butchy dykes , but two sexy lipstick lesbians is hawt af
At the root of it all is bland cis horniness scared of anything it doesn't like or understand.
People who ingest human feces and spread disease are disgusting.
My being disgusted by it is a scientifically proven valid response.
Anyone sensible would realise that an unconscious atavistic response is a dumb reason to hate other people, and go to therapy to sort it out.
BCD: “It’s all because of poopy lips! Here’s a study to prove it!”
The study: “people seem grossed out by lesbians at the same rate, must be something other than poopy lips”
BCD: “my disgust is scientifically valid despite reaching the exact opposite conclusion of the study I cited! This is definitely not an occasion of revisit my priors!”
Disgust is atavistic?
You're just using big words you don't understand.
You're just admitting to being emotionally incontinent and unable to control yourself.
you lost the argument when you used "cis"....
You're not having an argument, you're organising a pogrom.
You are truly a special snowflake. Just be more careful which sections you quote scientific papers from. Hint: the “abstract” section right at the beginning is not where the results are located. Have a blessed day!
Hey, since you can't edit your comment anymore, I'll let you in on a secret that only smart people like me can figure out. The last line of the abstract begins with " These results suggest,"
My quotes come from after that, which was the introduction/background which begins with "Pathogens have wreaked havoc". If you had ever read a paper before you would've recognized that instantly. Even if you had read just one.
“ Disgust sensitivity was related to both antipathy toward gay men and lesbian women, which is not consistent with the notion that the relation results from the association of gay men with anal intercourse (Kiss et al., 2020).”
This is the exact opposite of what you said above. And you cited this study to “prove” it.
Once again, you need to read past the abstract. “These results suggest” is the hypothesis (and is NOT The conclusion of this study— they are characterizing the previous work)… the authors then go on to do a bunch of statistical analysis and reach some conclusions, including the one I have quoted for you above, disproving or casting doubt on the hypotheses from the abstract.
I’ll give you a chance to delete yours, you already look like enough of a buffoon.
The abstract is first four sentences only.
"These results suggest" is a one-sentence summary of the conclusion of their paper.
You are utterly ignorant of even the basic structure of a paper. You don't even know what an abstract is.
Here is the conclusion. It does not say what you cited it for in support of above. In fact, it says the opposite.
“We examined the relation between pathogen avoidance and antigay attitudes in a large sample of heterosexual adults across 31 countries. Analyses showed that pathogen disgust sensitivity related to antigay attitudes measured by four variables (opposition to gay marriage, opposition to gay and lesbian sexual orientation, antipathy toward gay men, and antipathy toward lesbian women), and that these relations were small but relatively stable across countries. An analysis that explored how the relation varied across cultural regions showed that it was weakest in countries with a cultural relation to Britain. Overall, these results suggest that the relation between pathogen-avoidance motivations and antigay prejudice does not derive from factors that are particular to some countries (e.g., stereotypes about gay men specific to North American populations), but from factors that are relatively stable across the sampled countries.
Disgust sensitivity was related to both antipathy toward gay men and lesbian women, which is not consistent with the notion that the relation results from the association of gay men with anal intercourse (Kiss et al., 2020). In addition, the analysis revealed that pathogen disgust sensitivity was also related to antipathy toward other groups, in particular prostitutes, sexually promiscuous people, and atheists. A decomposition analysis showed that the relation between disgust sensitivity and antigay prejudice could be mostly accounted for by the relation between disgust sensitivity and antipathy toward these other groups. The correlation between disgust sensitivity and antigay prejudice could not be accounted for by prejudice toward politicians and lawyers, suggesting that the relation was not driven by prejudice toward groups associated with violations of cooperative norms. In addition, the results were only partially consistent with the notion that disgust sensitivity relates to negative attitudes toward outgroups in general. On the one hand, pathogen disgust sensitivity related to prejudice toward all groups except lawyers. On the other hand, for the four groups that were not characterized by sexual norm violations, disgust sensitivity showed relatively small relations with prejudice, and only attitudes toward atheists could account for a substantial part of the association between disgust sensitivity and antigay prejudice. In combination with evidence that prejudice toward atheists might derive from perceptions of promiscuous sexuality (Moon et al., 2019), the current findings provide little support for the notion that pathogen-avoidance motivations relate specifically to antigay prejudice. Instead, they suggest that pathogen-avoidance motivations relate more broadly to prejudice toward groups associated with sexual norm violations (Crawford et al., 2014).“
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/epdf/10.1177/13684302211067151
Look at that version and tell me where the abstract ends.
“These results suggest that the association between pathogen-avoidance motivations and antigay attitudes is relatively stable across cultures and is a manifestation of a more general relation between pathogen-avoidance motivations and prejudice towards groups associated with sexual norm violations”
You don’t think that characterizes the Discussion section of the paper (which you severely truncated)?
Sure, it does. But it doesn’t support what you said above, that most people are disgusted by seeing two men kissing on TV because of some lizard brain reaction to the possibility of fecal contamination, specific only to gay men, and not hot lesbians. Indeed the “disgust” reaction may in fact extend to all sorts of groups associated with sexual norm violations, including prostitutes, etc… this is discussed in the paper.
Where does the abstract end? After four sentences like I say, or after two pages like you say?
Where does it say this:
“ In other words, it’s a perfectly normal human response to be disgusted by homosexuals who, on accident or on purpose, ingest a lot of human feces. In fact it’s so normal that homosexual disgust is found in every culture.”
?
That’s the conclusion I drew from the facts I presented.
lol wtf, you’ve never done this before have you?
Now, where does the abstract end? After four sentences like I say, or after two pages like you say?
What facts? The authors drew the opposite conclusion
Hey Now!
“The science says so”
The level of self own-age here is truly tasty.
On the objections, obscenity and indecency, both in general and as applied to minors, are inherently content-specific. So the argument against content-specificity doesn’t apply.
Is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult community as a whole with respect to what is suitable for minors;
Call it, "The Elastic Clause." Pretty sure that is meant to be the all-purpose stand-in for every other qualifier in the law. You bust performances on that basis, and let the accused fight it out in court with the other stuff. Rinse and repeat. Ready-made persecution fit for any occasion.
Surprised EV did not even mention that specifically.
Welcome, newbie, to the Volokh Conspiracy!
that's how Jerry does it, really a master at his craft.
I suppose this ALSO puts an end to any Pride parade in Tennessee, as they take place on public property (city streets) and often include arguably sexualized activity by those in drag and other costumes -- and children can potentially see them.
And one has to wonder if Tennessee will be banning the broadcast of RuPaul's Drag Race, since kids could watch.
"we are just like you, we don't want special treatment or attention, just marry and live our lives"...1990
"we need special treatment, we need our flag in every corporate office, we need our own employee groups, we need equity, we need parades, we need you to bow down to us and praise us, we need to protect confused kids by sexual mutilating them" 2023
The gay community should do what it said it was going to do and assimilate into normal society. That means throwing the trans groomers out of the movement.
Once they've done that, you'll be coming for them, too.
So to speak.
Gosh, ya think? Over-construing narrowly-drafted laws is the whole game. That's exactly how illiberal regimes in Europe have pushed queer expression out of the public sphere, and they're trying to run the same exact playbook here.
They pass the law, hope that the drag queens and bars self-censor, bring selective prosecutions - and then those drag queens and kings (usually not very wealthy) will have to challenge those laws in court. It takes a couple of years, multiple appeals, with no certainty that the Supreme Court will continue to follow First Amendment precedents relating to this question.
That's why so many of these laws come with citizen-enforcement bounties - legislators are trying to reach beyond the bounds of what's constitutionally permitted by using the threat of prosecution and litigation to push people into self-silencing and self-regulating. A law doesn't ban abortions necessary for the health of a mother, but a regulatory agency will take away your medical license if it decides you made the wrong call. A law doesn't actually ban teaching concepts from critical race theory, but entitles people to sue you if they think you've taught white kids that they're inferior to Black kids.
It'll be exactly the same with this. None of the legislators voting for the ban felt that there was actually a problem with drag queens and kings engaging in pornographic performances in front of children. No, they saw a video with a breast plate and some hip thrusts and lost their mind. That's what this law is about, its actual text notwithstanding.
Things the Volokh Conspiracy currently finds interesting: Lesbians, drag queens, transgendered persons, anti-vaccination kooks, persecuted white males, gun issues (not involving threats against Democratic elected officials).
Things the Volokh Conspiracy currently does not find interesting: Fox-Dominion defamation issues, Florida censorship issues, Florida academic freedom issues, threats against Democratic elected officials, John Eastman and the Insurrectionists.
you left out Penn State Football
I would not capitalize football in that context.
I am not an illiterate, autistic, right-wing jerk.
Man, people used to give me shit for taking my daughters to Hooters (They love the wings)
Frank "and catering Drag Queen Story Hour, the Baruch Goldstein Kosher Deli and Shooting Range"
Footnote 20 of Roth v. United States, 354 U.S. 476, 487 (1957), defines appealing to "prurient interest" as "having a tendency to excite lustful thoughts." The Court there quoted Webster's New International Dictionary (Unabridged,2d ed., 1949) definition of prurient as "Itching; longing; uneasy with desire or longing; of persons, having itching, morbid, or lascivious longings; of desire, curiosity, or propensity, lewd."
It is difficult to envision a drag queen story hour having such an effect upon minor children.
It is difficult to envision a drag queen story hour having such an effect upon minor children.
So are the highly educated people in education so intent on forcing the issue?
Exactly what is the deliverable?
The law's lack of clarity is precisely the point of it. If EV isn't sure what it covers and what it doesn't, no one is safe. And that's the way they wanted it.
Pretty sure anyone doing anything remotely normal is safe. Leaving kids alone is safe. Restricting questionable performances to adults only is safe.
Not safe: subjecting kids to performances and other conduct that pushes boundaries.
So kids are protected and boundary-pushers aren’t. Seems like that’s the goal. And the problem is…?
Enforcing a very particular idea of normality based around the idea that anything you don't like can be categorised as a threat to children. Except guns.
Just stop pushing child sexualization boundaries.
Stop making stuff up that isn't happening to justify your burgeoning authoritarianism.
You don't want kids protected. We understand. You don't have to keep finding new ways to say it.
I think they should be protected from jumped-up authoritarian yahoos on reactionary moral crusades.
Lucky for them, no such people are after them. Seems like mostly drag queens want access to them.
You're after everybody, forcing your notions of conformity onto people through repressive laws.
Kids shouldn't be protected because ... "notions of conformity" ... now. Seriously, we get it. You don't want kids protected.
Pass gun control laws if you want to protect kids, you coward.
Enforcing a very particular idea of normality
What is the harm to putting a stop to drag queen story hour? I fail to find the redeeming social value.
Why is this so important to the adults?
The harm is that it's a repressive and authoritarian attack on LGTBQ people, and there's absolutely nothing to be gained from giving up on drag queen story hour except a false concession that the repressive authoritarians are correct and LGTBQ people are a threat to children.
No its not. We don't have strippers in libraries doing "learning to read" book readings for five year olds. This has nothing to do with an adults sexual orientation. And let's be honest, the trans community isn't the gay community. One can't affirm their gender, evolution did that. you can certainly pretend to be another sex (and I can pretend to be the king of spain) but pushing this denial of reality on kids is pretty sick.
No, you don't have strippers in libraries. It's not a thing that is happening. There's no need to pass laws about it unless the animus is aimed at LGTBQ people. Also, your fiercely held muddled-up ideas about evolution and gender are not grounds for denying trans people health care or forcing everyone to west gender-conforming clothing.
there are no trans people. There are males and females...that is evolution..that is science dude. No one is taking their "rights" away. They don't get special rights either. If you want to dress as a girl or have surgery to imitate the other sex (no you are NOT the other sex) you are free to do so as an adult. What are you not getting. This is about screaming for attention, inferiority complexes, wanting to force people to accept you, and growing your numbers, hence targeting kids. Look many folks go through life confused or in denial of reality..in a free country no problem but forcing your denial of reality on others is a problem. Leave kids alone.
Bollocks, it's medically and scientifically recognised and has fuck-all effect on your life, mind your business. But thanks for proving my point, this really is about trying to wipe them from existence.
"medical and scientific"...sure. You can dress up as the opposite sex or have surgery BUT you will never be the other sex. Denying millions of years of evolution certainty something one can do but pushing this on kids (who can decide for themselves) is the same as pushing the earth is flat or the center of the universe. I don't care if someone wants to go through life denying reality..but again why so interested in the kids?
Millions of years of evolution doesn't give a fuck if a person transitions. Nobody pushes this on kids.
Falcon's comment gives the game away. This has nothing to do with kids, everything to do with animus against certain groups.
Keep trying...has everything to do with a small fringe group pushing cult like denying of reality on kids by screaming "discrimination."
Do you see how your reply proves my assertion?
They are, and since I'm the guy who'll say the Baby's ugly, most normal peoples think anyone who wants to dress up like a woman and read stories to small children should get the "Fargo" Woodchipper treatment,
Not that I'm supporting that (makes a big mess, and dulls the blades)
Frank "You Betcha!"
You're also the guy who hoped a woman would get gang raped so why don't you get in the woodchipper first.
Fear. Fear of the new, of change.
You can talk about how you speak for normal people all you want but you are not the normals. You are Internet political message board posters, and you are just afraid.
This drag story thing isn’t for me and wouldn’t be something I’d send my kid to unless they asked for it. But it’s not some ninjaing of queerness or secret porn.
This law is just mongering the fear of change some of you wallow in.
This drag thing is not a crisis. It’s barely anything. The real normals? Don’t care about any of this shit.
That's not how culture wars work. Find a target, other it, isolate it, supress it, expand the target radius, repeat. It's how you focus people's hate on small vulnerable groups in order to enact authoritarian laws while not doing anything about real actual problems.
I'm content to let the predictable trajectory of the culture war and the verdict of the modern marketplace of ideas sift this.
That is what is driving the Volokh Conspiracy, the Federalist Society, right-wing judges, and other clingers batty these days.
Which is great!
Vulnerable groups? Really? Given the bolshies at the SPLC, Catholics are vulnerable groups now. Every white wine drinking woman wants a trannie kid..ticket to attention in NYC...hell cutting off their son's genitals because they have convinced him he is a girl gets them a reality TV show right?
“Bolshies”
Oy vey. Ok, gramps.
bolshies are back..just like facists..didn't you read the script. But now the bolshies are not running Russia but American foreign policy....Ukraine is about what the czar did to their ancestors and Trotsky losing to Stalin..come on get with the program...all hail Troytsky.
That is certainly the view from the fever-swamp. Hard to say if you actually believe it or not.
"The real normals? Don’t care about any of this shit."
Who elected you the Voice of Normals?
"my kid "
Let's hope that never happens!
Since the guys claiming to speak for normals in this thread include the guy who thinks his disgust at fecal matter is scientific justification for raging homophobia and the other guy who thinks children's books he's never read are pornography, I think Sarcastro might have the better case.
Volunteers to speak for "normals" at a blog operated by and for fringe-inhabiting, disaffected malcontents are always a treat.
He lives in the DC suburbs, being a Federal and all, so they let their kind adopt there.
“Who elected you the Voice of Normal”
Same people who elected you the chief of the fashion police, mr “touch of makeup and sensible shoes” asshole
People should be wary of weirdos seeking out ways to access their kids. New, old, or in between makes no difference.
Like the sweaty mouth-breathers who think the kids' books the kids are reading are all pornography.
Hey Ben you are kinda a weirdo tho.
Your idea of who is weird is gonna be kinda weird and probably shouldn’t be enshrined in law.
Mine too for that matter.
I don't push things onto others' children.
If Tennessee wants to pass a law banning me or anyone else from doing certain performances for children, the right answer is to respect that. People have a right to protect their children from more-or-less whatever. And they should do it without apology.
You prohibit things to others' children. Parents should be wary.
I don’t.
But they should, in fact, be wary. That’s part of a parent's job is to be wary.
This drag story thing isn’t for me and wouldn’t be something I’d send my kid to unless they asked for it,
But that's what prompted the law. Schools were doing this, and other things, behind parents backs.
Behind parents' backs, you say?
Could be, but gonna want proof of that.
What's so great about kids sitting around having someone tell them a story? It's just a lower tech version of watching TV (am I dating myself?, OK, watching something on your phone) Mom used to read me the Original Grimm's Fairy (yeah, take your Shot Queenie) Tails, in the Original German, scared the Scheisse out of me,
Remember my dad reading "Treasure Island" to me and my sister, until he lost interest (great story, Treasure Island, not my Dad's lack of interest in his kids)
Frank
I know this blog attracts antisocial, embittered, on-the-spectrum, disaffected losers, but this one was not expected.
Carry on, right-wing misfits. So long as your betters permit (and, in the case of the Volokh Conspirators, tenure holds).
Is it OK for Sasha Gray to read to kids at library school hours provided she keeps her clothes on? (Is shel still doing video these days? Her acting on Entourage a few years back was memorable. Does she get introduced at these events as an "actress" without any specifics as to her genre or screen credits?)
It's okay for just about anyone to read to kids so long as they keep their clothes on. Even those Nazi homeschoolers can do it. Looks like Bob was right about Nazi Story Hour. What else can he tell us about KKK Story Hour?
https://www.jta.org/2023/01/30/united-states/ohio-is-investigating-a-nazi-homeschooling-network-that-celebrates-hitler
Are there children's books that celebrate Hitler and Nazism? I was always a little suspicious that Dr. Seuss and Klaus Barbie died on the same day.
I expect there are specialist publishers.
Everyone here is talking about story hours. But this bill is not just about that. There are drag performances that are very very sexual (not in the library, sure) that allow children to attend and parents bring the kids. This bill prohibits children attending where the performers are male or female and do a sexualized performance.
Will our system allow a "conservative story hour"? A "bible study hour"? Why not?
Perhaps, but if that's the case, why single out "male and female impersonators?" Why not just say any "sexualized performances" of any type directed at kids is illegal?
Edit.
Very first paragraph of the story:
""Adult cabaret entertainment" … [m]eans adult-oriented performances that are harmful to minors, as that term is defined in § 39-17-901, and that feature topless dancers, go-go dancers, exotic dancers, strippers, male or female impersonators, or similar entertainers; …"
So, it DIDN'T single out "male and female impersonators, they were just the last item in a list, probably to make clear that they were included.
Laws passed to suppress scholarship and control what's taught in schools and supporting the banning of books can be vaguely worded because there's never been a problem turning language used to describe the oppression of minorities to the advantage of the majority; but if you just don't give a shit who knows you hate one particular group of people and are passing laws specifically designed to criminalise them, you can specify away.
'male or female impersonators'
Except one of those thing is not like the others. Any sexualised performance by male or female impersonators is already covered by the previous. This bans male and female impersonators full stop. There are Shakespeare plays that can no longer be performed in this jurisdiction.
Bullshit, complete and utter bullshit, and you know it. It doesn't ban male or female impersonators, as such. It bans " adult-oriented performances that are harmful to minors, as that term is defined in § 39-17-901" by male and female impersonators. Or basically anyone else, for that matter.
Not one play by Shakespeare would be banned under this law. And you knew it when you wrote that, liar.
If you think drag queen story hours are sexualised, you think gender-swapping in Shakespeare is, or any man dressed in anything vaguely feminine or any woman dressed in anything vaguely masculine. This is effectively the foundation for public and private dress codes. If you think that's a stretch I invite you to check the comments of the guys here who think that children's books are gay porn.
We're talking about what this law does, not what you imagine it does.
"If you think that’s a stretch I invite you to check the comments of the guys here who think that children’s books are gay porn."
Nobody here thinks actual children's books are gay porn. Most people understand that occasional pervs are creating gay porn 'children's books', and that banning those from elementary school libraries isn't banning "children's books', it's just keeping porn out of school libraries.
You've got this stupid rhetorical tic going, where if somebody threw a colorful fentanyl tablet into a bag of candy, and you were told not to eat from that bag, you'd say, "You want to ban candy!" You always hyper-generalize specific things to pretend the people you're opposing are unreasonable.
Oh, so drag queen story hour won’t be affected? Drag shows that aren’t sexualised won’t be affected? Hope you’re right, but it isn’t as if the motives are all that well hidden. Transgenderism must be eradicated.
‘Nobody here thinks actual children’s books are gay porn.’
You must have missed the three or four times I posted the list of banned books which they dismiss, without having read them, as ‘gay porn.’
‘Most people understand that occasional pervs are creating gay porn ‘children’s books’’
This is a new one. I can assure you quite categorically that ‘most people’ understand no such thing.
‘if somebody threw a colorful fentanyl tablet into a bag of candy’
So, the fentanyl is gay porn disguised as a children’s book, which is more of an urban legend at this point, which has supposedly been inserted into school libraries, therefore, you have to ban children’s books from school libraries. Not sure you’ve done yourself any facours with that analogy. Here spot the gay porn:
https://pen.org/banned-books-florida/
Right at the top:
"February 10, 2023 Update: Since PEN America published this list of book bans in Duval County, Florida, in December, we have received additional, conflicting information on the precise nature of when, why, and for how long books from the Essential Voices Collection were kept off classroom shelves in 2022. We are working to update the details of this case."
So, your own source isn't sure their account of what happened is true!
In fact, Duval County reassures books banned in Florida schools are ‘temporary’
They require books not on the approved list to be reviewed before being made available. These books haven't been banned, they've been pulled until the review is completed.
Duval county seems to be an outlier here in terms of behavior, based on both having a LOT of books not already on the approved list, and devoting very little in the way of resources to the review.
That just means the school board is dithering and/or obfuscating. Maybe the publicity will shame them. But then again it's the politicians beholden to Christian fundamentalists who hate LGTBQ and 'CRT' who hold the purse strings.
'approved list'
FFS. Children's books reviewed to make sure they're not gay porn?
There's a link to a broader overview right there:
https://pen.org/report/banned-usa-growing-movement-to-censor-books-in-schools/
'674 banned book titles (41 percent) explicitly address LGBTQ+ themes or have protagonists or prominent secondary characters who are LGBTQ+ (this includes a specific subset of titles for transgender characters or stories—145 titles, or 9 percent);'
'659 banned book titles (40 percent) contain protagonists or prominent secondary characters of color;
'This evolving censorship movement has grown in size and routinely finds new targets and tactics, homing in on the books encompassed in district book purchases or digital library apps. A parallel but connected movement is also targeting public libraries, with calls to ban books; efforts to intimidate, harass, or fire librarians; and even attempts to suspend or defund entire libraries.'
"FFS. Children’s books reviewed to make sure they’re not gay porn?"
Yes, and it's really disgusting that has become necessary.
Transgenderism is a mental problem which denies reality. Transvestitism is adults dressing as the other sex or using surgery to imitate the other sex. Pushing mental illness on children is immoral.
Pointing out someone is denying reality is not discrimination. You have no special rights because you deny reality.
You can no more be a woman if you are born a man than the sun revolves around the earth.
And you’re perfectly willing to erase anything and anyone that doesn’t fit in with your orthodoxy.
Do not complain when the normies do not wish to play along.
In that same vein the fringes of society do not get to choose what is normal either.
A self-identified Black man.
A man's gotta have his standards. You should try it some time.
The captive school children. Remember them?
That would be a good argument if DQSH were happening in schools. It’s not. The kids are there because their parents brought them.
So, Dominatrix Story Time? Bet those little shits will learn to behave at that one. Or else.
"Barring obscenity in front of kids, who cares?"
KKK Story Hour
Nazi Story Hour
Who cares!
Don't think dressing as The Cat In The Hat (which was very common) is quite the same thing.
How so?
"because their parents brought them."
Child abuse happens, yes.
ttps://www.dragstoryhour.org
“read books to children in libraries, schools, and bookstores”.
My kid’s favorite was Gigolo Story Time. For some reason they loved that scoundrel.
But Crack Whore Story Time frightened them. She was a mess.
You don’t know anything about being a man. Stay in your lane.
One can understand the motivation of a parent who doesn’t want queerness normalized for his child via the public school system.
Your kid identifies as a “they”?
There’s your first problem right there. The pernicious influence of Gigilo story hour reveals itself. You know according to Bob you’re guilty of child abuse?
"person wear the clothes traditionally worn by other genders and read a story"
That's a misleading framing as you well know.
Drag queens aren't wearing prim clothing, sensible shoes and just a hint of makeup. Its big fake boobs, ultra-tight clothes and f**k-me heels. Few, if any, actual women look like that.
That’s not at all what I said, goober. You’ve got an outrage addiction.
I’m saying as long as we’re sexualizing six year olds let’s do it right. In for a dime, in for a dollar.
You know damn well that drag queens dress as hypersexualized women.
I have nothing against drag queens. I have nothing against gigolos or prostitutes. They shouldn’t be exposed to children.
I don’t have anything against gays. Hell, I supported gay marriage from the moment I first heard about it, long before prominent Democrats did.
Proponents of story time say it’s teaching kids about LGBTQ, but drag queens don’t necessarily have anything to do with homosexuality. Y’all are just fucking with children to own the cons.
'Y’all are just fucking with children to own the cons.'
What a truly revolting thing to say. Also kind of pathetic.
I just don’t hunk it’s a big deal, so err towards letting people do what they want.
Not really, seems like a weirdly contradictory thing, as well as obviously reprehensible. Some people aren't fit to be parents, even if they just about scraped through the practical exam.
Do you object to heterosexuality being “normalized?”
as well as obviously reprehensible
What I am saying is that a parent who is a member of a traditional Christian, Jewish or Muslim community may be willing to accept it if a child’s innate propensities drive him or her to a queer lifestyle but he doesn’t want the school system to be instrumental in turning the child in that direction. The Supreme Court said in Obergefell:
Those who refer to such beliefs as “reprehensible” have no problem disparaging such beliefs, but the fact remains that they have no trouble understanding the motivations of people who believe that it is not the role of the public school system to normalize queerness.
"Queerness" doesn't mean what you think it means here.
"Queering" in this context could mean taking a more flexible or fluid approach to sexuality and gender, but it would also include thinking in a more open-minded way about how to be a good person. A "queer" Christianity could include, for instance, a rejection of conservative ideology masquerading as religion, and instead a re-embrace of the biblical and radical Christ.
Ironically, the emphatic and continual sexualization and rejection of queer identity speaks to the sickness of mainstream culture. You're not rejecting "queer" identity, as such. You don't even understand what it is. You're just exercising a puritantical and ideological form of psychic self-harm that is threatened by "queer" theory.
The apostrophe is over aggressive autocorrect. Multiple children.
Do you get off on sexualizing children?
I don’t; do you? You’re the one taking them to gigilo story hour
Talk about moving goalposts...
In grade school, yes, heterosexuality shouldn’t be normalized.
I don’t know how divorce and interracial relationships got into your message. Except that you’re simply listing indoctrination goals with out bothering to distinguish between sexualizing and not. Divorce is going to be normalized whether anyone likes it or not. Nobody who isn’t a whack job is worried about showing kids that interracial anything is ok.
Focus. Stick to the topic.
Insult rather than a response. Because you'd object to those things but not woman-face story hour.
"I wouldn’t object to people being able to use library space for those"
I don't believe that for a minute.
“Few, if any, actual women look like that”
Maybe not in Ohio
“prim clothing, sensible shoes and just a hint of makeup.“
This would be the outlier in the jurisdiction where I grew up
Usually at the hands of Republican politicians and Christian pastors rather than drag queens, statistically.
"Child abuse happens, yes."
Bob, your comments in general show you to be a fool, but this is over the top even for you. How is a parent taking a child to a drag queen story hour "child abuse" by any stretch of the imagination?
Tell us again about your favorite Drag Queen, Ms. Doubtfire.
lmao
The 'normies' the ones who trun up in camo at libraries and bookshops toting their guns around? Drag queens are infinitely more wholesome.
It doesn't have to be normal, it's just supposed to be fun.
...and Democrat mayors in Maryland.
Glad you agree.
The foster care system in Florida.... still no drag queens.
So "girls" just want to have fun?
It's exactly the same thing.
The Cat is a drag queen? Is Dr, Suess even still allowed?
Everybody wants to have fun, except hysterical moral scolds out to ban it.
It's all dress-up. You're the lot banning books.
Many religions also have misogynistic beliefs, is it also the role of schools not to normalise treating girls and women as equal to boys and men for the sake of members of those religions and their sincerely held prejuduces?
Mrs Doubtfire is a film about a creepy obsessive man who disguises himself as a woman to spy on his estranged family. THAT'S wholesome, so doesn't count.
Oh no those poor schoolchildren might have fun.
You jumped from drag queen story hour to crack whore and gigolo story hours, maybe worry about your own focus.
The people I was describing are not asking that some schoolchildren should get more rights or be treated differently, just that certain behaviors not be introduced by the school system. The people in your example want the students to be treated differently, in a way that violates federal law.
Meanwhile, dressing in drag is an exaggerated parody of what a woman is as imagined by a mentally ill man.
Let he who isn't obsessive about policing children's sexuality and banning books he hasn't read and searching for scientific justifications for his homophobia cast the first stone where mental illness is concerned.
I will always police adults grooming children.
If we can't protect our society's most innocent we are no better than monsters, like the Chinese who harvest and eat their young.
"policing children’s sexuality"
Children aren't supposed to have "sexuality", that's the point.
Post puberty teenagers ain't going to any story hour.
That doesn't stop you lot trying to police it.
'I will always police adults grooming children.'
You will use it as a pretext to attack and oppress LGTBQ people.
Certain behaviours, such as, what, acknowledging that LGTBQ peple exist and that it is normal for them to exist and that some of the kids may themselves be LGTBQ and that's also normal? Because of religious prejudices?
Yet another point completely missed.
So you agree that Queen and Krychek are wrong to say that it’s not being done in schools. Where the audience is captive. Right?
Yeah, since I don't think there's anything salacious or sexual about drag queen story hour, I don't particularly care if they go to schools, more power to 'em, and everything done in a schools is effectively done to a captive audience, so, so what?
You don't know what types of schools they mean. I looked around their website and couldn't find any examples. You also don't know if these events are on school grounds, but done after school hours or on weekends. So you really don't have any idea if children are being forced into attending these things.
Great. Let’s show them porn during recess on rainy days. Fun times for all!!
The paper says clearly that “Gender fluidity is a key component of drag.” Though you may see gender fluidity as an unalloyed good, there are those who do not think that it is the role of the school to push those boundaries with respect to children.
evolution affirms your gender. You can imitate the other gender by dress or surgery but that is personal decision which public schools should not be involved, and surgery should be out of the question for anyone who an adult is not. it isn't that hard. Anyone pushing for drag hour in schools is the problem not the parents objecting.
There are also people who don't think it's the role of school to teach Darwinian evolution, best not to encourage them.
The people you're talking about are insisting, instead, that schools instruct girls on how to be girls, and boys on how to be boys. Why are they entitled to impose their ideology of a rigid gender binary on others?
The people who think it's okay to ban this also think perfectly normal and harmless children's books are porn - so, yes, if you read a book to kids during recess on a rainy day they think you are showing them porn. They're so gung-ho on their anti-LGTBQ crusade they've sexualised everything.
Well, let’s just say that before the schools start teaching as fact that there is a “gender identity” that is different from biological sex, many people want to see the scientific evidence supporting this.
I don’t think drag queen story hour counts as a lesson about gender identity, but the scientific conssensus is that gender dysphoria is real.
Gender dysphoria is a pathology, like depression. Please cite the study finding a gender identity distinct from biological sex.
Good news on the science front, swood! https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/
Good news on the science front, swood!
One neuroscientist, after analyzing 30 years of research on human brain sex differences, concluded that
Where is the study showing biological features that can reliably identify transgender individuals as different from others?
The largest study of twin transsexual adults found that only 20 percent of identical twins were both transidentified. Why isn’t that closer to 100 percent?
In any event, 80–95% of the prepubertal children with gender identity disorder (GID) will no longer experience a GID in adolescence. So why are we giving these children hormones?
Oh, so just because you don’t understand its biological causes means it doesn’t exist. Real objective science there.
'In any event, 80–95% of the prepubertal children with gender identity disorder (GID) will no longer experience a GID in adolescence.'
I've heard this stat before, and it always turned out that
a) that represents the figure that got referrals but no diagnosis.
b) oh it turns out they're not diagnosing every kid that gets a referral, just a small percentage, which cuts against the scaremongering.
'So why are we giving these children hormones?'
We're not.
No new goalposts, swood. You asked for a study, I gave you a study.
If you want more, Google Scholar has plenty.
But something tells me you don't want more.
I think that Darwinian evolution has more scientific support than the notion that there is a gender identity different from biological sex.
I don’t think that at all. You have this remarkable habit of generalizing anybody who disagrees with you into the worst possible behavior of your opponents. And actually think it’s true.
I meant people actually fucking on the video. You know, pornography. You saying you oppose that you moral scold?
I'm not generalising anything, I'm describing what is happening.
'You saying you oppose that you moral scold?'
Here you are, equating drag queen story hour with actual pronography. That makes you the moral scold.
...that ends with 'd' that rhymes with 't' that stands for 'trouble' right here in River City!
The theory of natural selection has been around for nearly two hundred years, studies into transexuality have had, what, a hundred? Unfortunately a lot of early studies got destroyed by the Nazis. Here, you'll like this, when they were burning the papers, they threw pronography on top and claimed that's what it was. Good thing nobody's equating LGTBQ stuff with pornography these days, right? Like the Nazis did, right?
Gender expression, which is the stuff of drag, is clearly and empirically conventional in nature. We aren’t genetically coded to think that blue is a “boy’s” color; we aren’t born to think that only girls wear their hair long; we learn only from others that boys typically don’t wear makeup or dresses.
Gender identity and its relationship to “biological sex” is less well understood. Transgender identity isn’t a unique-to-the-modern-west phenomenon. But what it amounts to is a way of describing what some (very few) people experience, which is a deeply-felt conviction that their “gender” is different from that assigned to them at birth. It may be a purely psychological condition; it may have some roots in biology. But it’s not necessarily a problem, and we seem to have a better record of socializing people with this condition by permitting them to live as their felt gender, rather than trying to find a way to “re-program” them to live some other way. Again, this is empirically observable and increasingly researched, though there are avenues for further research – much like what we’ve seen with sexual orientation.
Your grousing is occurring primarily at the ideological level. The liberal mindset has adopted a kind of adamant and categorical approach to trans identity, in response to the reactionary impulse to reject all of that gender expression/identity stuff as horseshit.
Guarantee that if you were to give them truth serum, he and all the rest of these freaks would support repealing every law against child labor. Not to mention taking away their healthcare and school lunches. The idea that they care about the well-being of children is laughable.
Who DOES care about Nazi Story Hour?
https://www.jta.org/2023/01/30/united-states/ohio-is-investigating-a-nazi-homeschooling-network-that-celebrates-hitler
If you think a child will decide they're trans because of drag queen story hour you're an idiot or a liar.