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Thoughts on Today's Supreme Court Student Loan Forgiveness Oral Arguments
The justices seem to be clearly leaning against the Biden Administration on the merits. The procedural issue of standing is a closer call, though ultimately more likely than not to come out the same way.
Today the Supreme Court heard oral arguments in Biden v. Nebraska and Department of Education v. Brown, two cases challenging the legality of the Biden Administration's plan to forgive over $400 billion in student debt, relying on the 2003 HEROES Act and the Covid-19 national emergency. The big issues in the two cases are whether the Administration has the power to grant loan forgiveness on such a vast scale, and whether the plaintiffs in the two cases (six state governments in one, two private parties that actually want the program to be broader in the other) have standing to challenge the program. I have previously gone over the substantive issues here and here, and standing here, here, and here.
While the outcome won't be known for weeks, perhaps not until June, today's oral arguments strongly suggest that all six conservative justices believe the loan forgiveness program is illegal, while the three liberals hold the opposite view. Things are less clear on the standing question. It is possible that Justice Amy Coney Barrett will join the three liberals in concluding that none of the plaintiffs have standing. But the other conservatives seem likely to rule that at least one (probably the state of Missouri) does have it.
Various conservative justices repeatedly signaled they have doubts that the HEROES Act authorizes the Biden plan, both because the power to "waive or modify" student loan conditions does not include large-scale cancellation of debt principal, and because many of the 40 million potential beneficiaries of the plan are not actually "in a worse position financially in relation to" their student loan obligations as a result of the Covid-19 pandemic, as the statute requires in order for the power to "waive or modify" to be authorized by the Covid national emergency declaration. In my view, the latter is the biggest legal weakness of the plan.
Chief Justice John Roberts cited evidence indicating that more than half of the potential beneficiaries do not believe they will have any trouble repaying their student loans. Of the remainder, many have issues unrelated to the impact of the pandemic. While Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar rightly pointed out that the statute does not require "case-by-case" assessment of each individual, such massive overreach - covering tens of millions of people and hundreds of billions of dollars - seems obviously beyond what the statute authorizes.
The conservative justices - and at least one liberal - also signaled they believe the "major questions doctrine" - which requires Congress to "speak clearly when authorizing an [executive branch] agency to exercise powers of vast economic and political significance" - is applicable here. Justice Sotomayor (who was sympathetic to the government on almost every other point), rightly pointed out that "the amount at issue, the Chief [Justice] mentioned the quarter [of] a trillion dollars or the half a trillion dollars… seems to favor the argument that this is a major question."
None of the justices seemed sympathetic to Prelogar's argument that the major questions doctrine applies only to regulations, but not to federal benefits. Chief Justice Roberts noted that this ignores the fact that the purpose of doctrine is to protect separation of powers across the board. Justice Alito commented that "drawing a distinction between benefits programs and other programs seems to presume that when it comes to the administration of benefits programs, a trillion dollars here, a trillion dollars there, it doesn't really make that much difference to Congress."
The Court need not resort to the major questions doctrine to rule against the administration. It could just make that decision based on the text of the HEROES Act. But the doctrine raises the burden of proof the administration must meet. If the loan forgiveness policy qualifies as resolving a "major question" (and the immense size of the expenditure suggests that it does!) the government must not only show that the statute authorizes the policy, but that it does so "clearly." If the Court concludes the statute is ambiguous, the federal government will lose.
From early on, I have thought that the Biden Administration's best chance to save this policy is by winning on standing. Today's arguments confirm that.
The plaintiffs in the two cases advance various theories of standing. But by far the strongest is that of the state of Missouri, based on the fact that Missouri has a state agency called the Higher Education Loan Authority of the State of Missouri (MOHELA), which services many federally backed student loans and stands to lose money if some of those loans are forgiven.
Interestingly, Prelogar today conceded that MOHELA would have standing if it brought the case itself! But she argues that the state of Missouri lacks standing to bring a case on MOHELA's behalf, because the latter has an independent corporate status, and has the legal right to sue and be sued. In my view, this overlooks the reality that MOHELA is a state agency fulfilling public functions, that it is owned by the state, and thus any financial losses suffered by MOHELA are also suffered by Missouri. The fact that there is some administrative separation between MOHELA and other state agencies is irrelevant.
Nonetheless, the three liberal justices seemed to buy this argument. Conservative Amy Coney Barrett may also agree with it. She repeatedly pressed this issue today. At one point, she asked Nebraska Solicitor General Jim Campbell "[i]f MOHELA is an arm of the state, why didn't you just strong-arm MOHELA and say you've got to pursue this suit?" It's a reasonable question, and Campbell didn't deal with it well, saying that it's "a question of state politics."
A better response is that, while the state attorney general may not have the power to order MOHELA to file a lawsuit, that does not change the fact that MOHELA is owned by Missouri, and therefore that financial losses to MOHELA are also losses to the state. The state government can limit the power of one state agency (the AG's office) to control another (MOHELA). But that doesn't change the fact that the state ultimately owns and controls both. While the AG may not have the authority to issue orders to MOHELA, he does have the power to bring lawsuits on behalf of the state as a whole, to advance any of the state's interests - including those involving the assets of administratively independent state agencies.
It is not entirely clear which way Justice Barrett will go on this issue. While she posed probing standing questions to Campbell, she also at one point suggested that Missouri may get standing simply on the basis that it owns MOHELA.
The other five conservative justices said little about Missouri's standing. If they were inclined to rule against the plaintiffs on this basis, I would expect them to push the issue much more.
Some of the conservatives also seem open to other arguments for standing advanced by the plaintiff states, such as more indirect financial losses they might suffer. Justice Neil Gorsuch noted that a majority of the Court had granted state standing in Department of Commerce v. New York, the 2019 case challenging the legality of the Trump Administration's plans for the 2020 census, on the basis that "undercounting the state's population "would have potential effects to the State of New York in the term -- in terms of the benefits it might later receive, that kind of knock-on effect was sufficient to constitute standing in that case." In addition, if a majority of justices thought that no plaintiff has standing, they would probably not have left in place the lower court injunctions blocking implementation of the loan forgiveness plan.
For all these reasons, I think at least five conservative justices will ultimately conclude that at least one plaintiff in Biden v. Nebraska (probably Missouri) does have standing. If so, they are likely to rule against the program on the merits. But I admit there is much more uncertainty on this issue than on the merits.
As I have pointed out before, the Biden Administration and its supporters have - in this case - been pushing ultra-narrow theories of standing traditionally associated with the political right. Those theories were wrong when advanced by conservatives, and are still wrong today.
While there may be a majority for granting standing in Biden v. Nebraska, the oral argument suggests there probably isn't one in Department of Education v. Brown, the somewhat screwy case brought by the conservative Job Creators Network on behalf of two plaintiffs who complain that the Biden program isn't generous enough, excluding one of them completely and forgiving less of the other's debt than might have otherwise been the case. They argue they have standing because administration adopted the plan without going through the "notice and comment" procedure arguably required by the Administrative Procedure Act, which would have given them an opportunity to argue that the program should have been more generous to them.
In the oral argument, the Brown plaintiffs' counsel argued that, if the court rules that the current loan forgiveness plan is illegal, the Biden Administration might go back to the drawing board and draft a new - hopefully more generous! - plan under the Higher Education Act of 1965. In the process, there would be a notice and comment procedure, where his clients would have their say. Ironically, the Higher Education Act has been cited as a possible alternative justification for the current Biden plan by some of the administration's supporters in the litigation (I criticized that theory here).
Both liberal and conservative justices criticized this theory of standing as too uncertain and convoluted. Among other things, it is far from clear that defeat in this case really will lead the administration to try again, using the Higher Education Act. They could just decide to accept defeat and go home.
I myself think that the Brown plaintiffs do deserve standing. But that's largely because I think current standing doctrine is far too restrictive, and should be largely abolished. At the very least, taxpayers should have a general right to challenge potentially illegal government expenditures. But it's highly unlikely the Supreme Court will endorse such radical (though correct!) notions anytime soon. Under current Supreme Court precedent, the Brown plaintiffs' face a very uphill battle, though they did prevail in the lower court.
But even if the Brown plaintiffs lose on standing, it will not make much difference to the fate of loan forgiveness program, so long as the plaintiffs in the other case win on that issue - and also prevail on the merits. That still strikes me as the most likely outcome.
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The House of Representatives should also have clear standing to sue, correct? Though I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid the political mess of needing to do so.
It should, but if that were the case Trump's border wall would have been blocked as well.
For the record, I think both Trump's diversion of funds to build his wall and the loan forgiveness should have been blocked. But I think the loan forgiveness has much stronger grounds.
Probably. The House has retained it's own lawyers when it doesn't like the arguments the DOJ is making in regards to some law or other, though all the examples I can think of are ones where the DOJ was willing to take a loss rather then fight all the way to the SCOTUS, and the House wanted to keep appealing.
This is a little different in that it would be the House saying "we don't like the way the Executive is interpreting", but they probably could have intervened if they had wanted to.
But that's kind of the elephant in the room: if the House had wanted to, they could have killed this in the cradle by repealing, amending, or otherwise restricting the HEROES Act.
Or to put it another way... the whole argument being presented is "this isn't what Congress intended!" and ignoring that Congress is sitting in the background saying "hey, we're cool with it man. Let it ride."
Are they? Maybe they don’t see the point in trying given that it probably wouldn’t get 60 votes in the senate and certainly wouldn’t pass with a veto-proof majority.
There’s got to be something in the system to stop things when the president (any president) goes off the rails this far, otherwise the separation of powers doesn’t really exist.
Yes.
You are confusing Congress choosing not to act with Congress being unable to act.
I think the proper argument is that this is well within the bounds of the bill that Congress passed. There's an argument it's being used in a way that Congress couldn't have anticipated, and perhaps that's a good standard, but that's not the historic standard (as evidenced by Trump's made up border wall emergency).
As for them not changing/restricting the law since, I think that's a weaker argument. The US legislative branch changes hands regularly and the procedure for passing a bill can be quite onerous. It would be too easy for a President to exploit a divided house that didn't support them, but couldn't coalesce around specific legislation restricting them.
You're describing a feature as a bug.
Fact is, congress can move fast and unify around things when they care to.
That congress chooses not to is itself a sign that Congress doesn't consider this to be nearly as "major" a question as SCOTUS wants it to be.
Infantalize congress if you want, but don't fool yourself about what you're doing.
I don't understand how they can get around that big green elephant in the room -- where is the money coming from if Congress didn't or doesn't appropriate it.
the printing press
Yeah, I know that, but it doesn't answer the question.
I think it just is added to the deficit. Can't really find anyone with a solid write-up of the mechanics of it.
Indeed.
I used to buy the trope that the debt ceiling fight was illegitimate because Congress servicing the national debt is just payment for spends that they authorized. S**t like the twelve digit debt forgiveness [and other smaller but more numerous spends without Congress having held the purse strings] has taught me that the size of the debt is NOT simply the sum of all appropriations minus the sum of all taxes. Trump can spend money on his wall with no appropriation, and Biden can vanish a debt owed by one of his pet constituencies which would require a CBO report if Congress were to try to appropriate the money.
When the HEROES act was scored by the CBO, I'm pretty sure that the report did not say "and you should consider this to be a partial trillion dollar spend because some future president is likely to >poof< some large body of debt owed to the government."
-dk
The money isn't "coming from" anywhere. The money was already spent, years ago.
This is a silly response. Any future budget would assume some percentage of this money would be repaid
Not anymore!
Revenue is not directly correlated to spending these days.
Unfortunately more true with every passing year
That's not how it works, and doesn't change my point. That less money will come in, in the future, does not constitute this program spending money.
Let's say that 3 months after the next government fiscal year starts, there's a stock market crash and a recession and the government takes in $400B less in tax revenues. That's bad, but the loss of expected revenues isn't "coming from" the treasury. It just adds $400B to the deficit. No money is being appropriated; it's just fewer revenues.
It’s correct that the debt held by the government just vaporizes and the projected cashflow stream goes away.
But what about the debt (if any) that is held by private entities? They’ll need to be reimbursed, and that is cash outlay. Historically there’s been a mix of public and private lenders, but I can’t find a story that has mentioned that in this context. Seems likely that in a pool this big that some of it would be private, but I don’t know.
To be really technical (and I substantively agree with David here on the constitutional appropriations issue), a lot depends on whether you look at things from a cash or an accrual basis. I think the appropriations clause requires a cash basis, but it's definitely true that an accountant might say that forgiving a loan is spending money.
Regardless of whether you’re doing cash or accrual accounting, the private entities have an asset on their balance sheet and a future cashflow stream, both of which will be wiped out.
I assume there are no prepay penalties on these things so the future cashflow stream goes away with no reimbursement consistent with the terms of the contract, but they’ll need to be paid the balance on the loans. And the government will have to be the entity to do that and that cash will be borrowed/printed.
The federal government's accounting is on a cash basis, as I understand it.
The term "spending money" is not well-defined in accounting terms since many things, like expenses, loan repayments, and capital expenditures, among others, involve cash outlays.
Forgiving a loan would probably show up as an extraordinary expense item, hitting the balance sheet by reducing the value of the asset (the loan).
This is a good point, as well. Although Obama moved to make federal student loans direct, huge amounts of the student debt are still not held by the government - the government is just a guarantor. The government will still need to pay the holders.
On the other hand, the affirmative act of forgiving debt is considered a payment in most senses, for example for tax purposes. Lending isn't the same thing as spending.
Interesting concept. Let's say instead of loan forgiveness, Biden simply issues the following executive order.
1. "Those who currently have student loans with the Federal Government will not need to pay $20,000 worth of federal taxes."
Comment on the legality of such an executive order and who would have standing to sue to stop such a policy.
That's my question -- were these loan guarantees which will have to be repaid, or did the feds directly loan the money?
Hundreds of billions are just guarantees. Since 2012 or something they have been lending directly.
Thanks -- finally got an answer 🙂
I suppose that brings up the question of whether Biden's EO made a distinction.
Good q - I don't know.
The argument is that the money was spent when the loaned money was paid out -- now it's just a decision to forgo revenue. I think that argument is nonsense on stilts, but it's what the left says.
No, as an accounting matter it's correct. That doesn't make the program legal — Biden doesn't have the authority to forgive the loans — but he's not sending out checks to people.
Yeah, I agree: As an accounting matter, it's foregone revenue. The affect on the bottom line is identical, but the mechanism is slightly different.
It's as though Biden decided to waive income tax payments for some favored group.
You could argue that the appropriations clause, ("No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law;") would apply to passing out checks, but not to waiving payments. But I don't find that terribly persuasive.
Standing rules are a real mess: You can do something like this that benefits half the population, and inevitably damages the other half just as a sort of conservation law, (If nothing else, inflation goes up a bit, and the people not getting the benefits are worse off as a result.) and the courts will ignore the second half of the equation. And no weight AT ALL gets given to the general interest in having constitutional government.
Sorry, but as an accounting matter the interest would be revenue. Not the principle repayment
My understanding was that the feds guaranteed the loans, meaning money has to be appropriated to pay the banks who actually loaned the money. That requires an appropriation by Congress and Biden can't do that all by his lonesome.
But y'all are talking as if the feds loaned the money themselves and now are just trying to not get the revenue from paying them back, which I agree does not require Congressional appropriation.
About 10 years back the feds switched from just guaranteeing private loans, to being the actual lender. There's currently a mix of loans out there.
Which indicates Congress needs to kill the student loan program entirely as it is, literally, just a gaping money pit.
Article 1 section 9 - "No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time."
The student loan receivables are monetary assets of the treasury. Cancelling student loans is drawing money from the treasury.
Any argument otherwise is pure sematic BS
any argument that the cancellation of debt is not spending is BS
That's my reasoning in rejecting the notion that the appropriations clause doesn't apply. Selectively refusing to collect revenue is functionally indistinguishable from handing out money.
As an accounting matter, what do you claim is correct? Normally, the principal for a loan to a person is only considered income if and when principal is forgiven, and only the interest counts as an expense. On the other side of the equation, only the interest is considered income to the lender, and principal should only be counted as an expenditure if and when it is forgiven.
No, it's not correct "as an accounting matter." Debt instruments payable like accounts receivable are an asset on your balance sheet. Forgiving it is just like selling it and conveying the asset, except without consideration, and it is income to the borrower.
Weird you didn’t use the word “spending” at all in your ‘loan forgiveness is just like selling something and giving it to the barrower’ argument.
It’s an unsupported analogy, but also doesn’t even address the issue.
I don’t pretend to know how the Constitutional issue shakes out. But I can see you don’t know what you’re talking about with accounting matters. Lending isn’t the same thing as spending.
Loans are an asset on your balance sheet, unlike future income which is just a projection and not an asset on your balance sheet.
Loan forgiveness disposes of an asset on your balance sheet.
I didn’t say loan forgiveness was like selling something “and” giving “it” to the borrower.
I said giving somebody something is like selling something, except you don’t charge a price.
So this is a thread about the Constitutional issue in a post about the Constitutional issue. You replied to someone making an argument about the Constitutional issue. And you did not make clear you were changing the subject. In fact, you pushed back on the idea that such an argument was ‘purely accounting.’
You have changed your thesis. And are pretending you didn't.
Shitty.
Where in the Constitution do you see any authorization for the federal government to make loans to private parties? Where does it say how such loans should be accounted?
It's part of the legislative power: "It is an incident to the general right of sovereignty, and the United States, being a body politic, may, within the sphere of the constitutional powers confided to it and through the instrumentality of the proper department to which those powers are confided, enter into contracts not prohibited by law and appropriate to the just exercise of those powers."
United States v. Tingey, 30 U.S. 115 (1831)
Is this the argument you want to make?
Consider a scenario: I, a loan shark, offer a loan to Joe-Bob. Later on, Joe-Bob goes to court to argue that the loan I offered was illegal/unconstitutional for whatever reason. If the court agrees, Joe-Bob is off the hook and owes me no future loan payments.
That's the most logical outcome if you successfully argue that federally-backed/offered student loans were unconstitutional: that the loans are null and void, and everyone walks away with whatever they already have.
David N. said: "as an accounting matter it’s correct. That doesn’t make the program legal"
I replied that, in my opinion, it's not correct "as an accounting matter."
Would you like to comment on whether it's correct as an accounting matter?
Or, if you'd like to comment on how that issue should or should not relate to or fit in the Constitutional analysis, I'm all ears.
Hopefully you can do better than a bunch of non-sequiturs, like asserting, without explanation, that something is an "unsupported analogy" when nobody was even making an analogy.
arcastr0 7 hours ago (edited)
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Weird you didn’t use the word “spending”
Sarcastro - possibly because the operative section of the constitution doesnt use the word spending!
See section 9 article 1
But the account also shows the debt as a asset of the organization.
That debt can even be packaged and sold.
So the claim that it is nothing but water under the bridge is sophistry
concur -
See article 1 section 9 - "“No money shall be drawn from the treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law; and a regular statement and account of receipts and expenditures of all public money shall be published from time to time.”
The student loan receivables are monetary assets of the treasury. Cancelling student loans is drawing money from the treasury.
Any argument otherwise is pure sematic BS
any argument that the cancellation of debt is not spending is BS
That doesn't work in any other context.
If your actions cause the incorporated business that I own to lose money, that ultimately means that I lose money. But that doesn't give me personal standing to sue you with respect to those losses; only the business has the standing.
And? Sovereigns get a bunch of special cases. States have the police power, private citizens and the federal government don't. States have parens patriae standing to sue. AGs often accept service of claims against other state agencies and are compelled to represent those agencies in court. And so forth and so on; saying different rules apply to other entities in this situation doesn't really address what the rules are for these government parties.
The alleged loss to MOHELA is not in Missouri's capacity as a sovereign.
See "Piercing the corporate veil" for examples of when you can be sued personally for actions done by a business you own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil
This has been further education of a supposed lawyer by the Armchair Lawyer.
College Students should pay for tuition the way I did, work, sell their plasma and soul to Uncle Sam for 4 years. As AB(Neg) I'm like Lucy Westenra with the Red Cross, unfortunately they only paid/pay with juice/cookies. Military's even worse, they've been trying to get me back (fat chance) for 20 years (c'mon Man!!! "Mission's Accomplished" we just need you in Ear-Rock for a few months, umm, we have this little "Mopping Up" operation in Fallujah!
Frank
I worked in a foundry. Great job, all the free ice water you wanted, in fact, you were required to have some at your work station and drink it frequently. Went through a lot of clothes from the sparks, but the pay was great, and my shoes only caught fire that once.
I think in the end, the program is ruled out. While correct as a matter of law, I fail to see that the politics of it benefit the Republicans. Telling 40 Million people that they will still have to pay their loans doesn't seem like a great political position. Other than owning the libs, hard to see the benefit to the GOP.
So then you basically are saying that the only way to win elections is to promise more free stuff than the last guy. That's the death knell of a democracy.
It is, and it's still true. It's a classic failure mode for democracy.
And to the many of us who paid and/or are paying our student loan debt?
Suckah!
Exactly why it pisses me off.
I paid $300K for my kids and what do I get from Joe Blow? NADA
While spite and jealously are understandable human emotions, they are poor basis for policy preferences.
It is not spite. It is a statement of the inEQUITY of Old Joe’s proposal
And equity and fairness are damned good reasons for policy
Dude, you're practically spitting nails. Spite through and through.
"spite and jealously"
It is commonplace for those advocating "redistribution" giveaways to mock those who made personal sacrifices so that their kids could start their lives with a clean financial slate.
So we are not talking about spite and jealousy, we are speaking about envy and covertness on the part of the greedy and the lazy.
Why is redistribution in quotes? No one is saying that's what it is, except you and those who agree with you.
And you are *absolutely* engaging in envy. This is full moral hazard, and you're even writing the thoughts and feelings of other people to better be angry at them! Don't cloak yourself in righteousness here, it's unbecoming one so bitter.
My priors:
I like the policy - I think the debt load is silly for students these days and have no issues with some of my fellows getting a benefit I won't.
I do *not* think this is within the President's authority, however.
I think *do* a larger reform of student loans is pointed to by how needed this is.
But around here, student loan reform gets subsumed into a general hostility to schooling.
Sarcastro - As usual - you are missing the broader point, the fairness and the causes of the student debt crisis.
The first point is that the availability of student debt was never designed to benefit the student. It was designed to benefit the school industry, the employees if the form of higher employment and compensation.
The second point, is that the structure of the student loan programs was designed to eliminate any risks to the real beneficiaries to the student loans. The Schools and employees never had any skin in the game, they never had any risks.
Loans benefit a nontrivial number of students, don't be silly.
Moral hazard is an interesting thing - it is not facially unfair. But it you can decide it's unfair and get mad in an ideologically consistent way.
Though honestly crying it's not fair about this or that government policy seems pretty weak.
Total US population is about 340 million. Telling 40 million people that they have to live up to their commitments and pay off their damn loans is also telling 300 million people that they won't have to pick up the slack for the 40 million freeloaders.
That's probably more harshly worded than any actual politician will say but that's the benefit to the GOP.
That’s what’s known as “concentrated benefits and diffuse costs“. A classic economic problem: The smaller group benefiting care a great deal, and are motivated to act, the much larger group bearing the costs are harmed only a little individually, and so are much less motivated to do anything about it.
Most of government functions on this basis: Charge 99 people a penny a piece, and give 50 cents to 1 person. Repeat 100 times in rotation, and you’ve got 100 people happy to have gotten 50 cents, despite the fact that they've lost a dollar, and have pocketed $50.
The government does not function like that, because bonds are a thing that exists. This is not a zero sum game.
No, typically it's a negative sum game.
No, that's not actually how the national debt works. You're pretending it's a credit card again.
No, you're pretending it isn't. It's a credit card held by a guy with a gun, basically.
This is a profound ignorance of some basic economics.
It's owed largely to ourselves. It can rotate forever. There is no higher authority to come after us.
It is not nothing - it's inflationary. But you're model could not be more incorrect.
Sarcastr0 2 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"This is a profound ignorance of some basic economics."
Thats a strange comment made to Brett coming from a person who doesnt display a basic grasp of either micro economics or macro economics
Got anything other then empty insults?
Sovereign debt isn't a credit card. The GOP likes to play it so, but that's not how it works at all.
You can play this like a zero sum game. It's not - you're just seeking grievance.
I mean, spite and owning the libs is basically what the GOP has run on in 2020 and 2022. And the current congressional districts favor them enough that that's all they need.
Democrats in 1960: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."
Democrats in 2020 and beyond: "Gimme free stuff. Free student loans, stimmy checks. I need a new sail phone."
There is no constitutional justification for refusing to recognize taxpayer standing. And the numerous states that HAVE taxpayer standing refute the hypothesized concerns about flooding the courts with too many lawsuits. It's time for that doctrine to go away.
"Interestingly, Prelogar today conceded that MOHELA would have standing if it brought the case itself! But she argues that the state of Missouri lacks standing to bring a case on MOHELA's behalf, because the latter has an independent corporate status, and has the legal right to sue and be sued. In my view, this overlooks the reality that MOHELA is a state agency fulfilling public functions, that it is owned by the state, and thus any financial losses suffered by MOHELA are also suffered by Missouri. "
This was a mistake. Mere harm to MOHELA doesn't mean it has any say-so when it comes to whether the government must be held to its bargain with the borrowers. Without that say-so, it's a stranger to the loan "contract," and thus it has no standing. It would have standing to sue the government for damages, but it doesn't have any right to force borrowers to be the source of whatever funds it gets from the repayment of the loans. This is elementary, but like everything else, clear legal lines have been blurred.
"At the very least, taxpayers should have a general right to challenge potentially illegal government expenditures."
Propose a workable rule. I like the idea of taxpayer standing. Allowing any single taxpayer to challenge any expenditure leads to a flood of frivolous litigation.
Could the major questions framework be the start of a reasonable test? I think we can all agree that something as large as student loan forgiveness should be able to be challenged by taxpayers but what's the lower bound look like?
Although they call President Joe Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan “unlawful,” two university law professors are urging the Supreme Court to reject the legal challenges that have been brought against it.
“The standing theories that have been thrown at the wall in these cases are wrong, and many of them would have dangerous implications,” wrote William Baude, a law professor at the University of Chicago Law School, and Samuel Bray, a University of Notre Dame law professor, in an amici curiae brief filed on Wednesday with the nation’s highest court.
https://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/william-baudes-amici-brief-student-loan-forgiveness-cases-featured-cnbc
Baude is really going full 'let the chips fall where they may' on standing when an executive acts beyond their authority. I do believe standing forecloses some suits on this, but I'm not sure I'm willing to pull the trigger on 'if it's pure spending no standing' ability to rise above any checks.
Same issue I have with the political questions doctrine.
‘let the chips fall where they may’
That is a prerogative of professors. Decsion makers don't have that luxury
Only if you define Congress as "not decision makers".
Because Congress has been writing vague laws, delegating authority, and choosing to stand back and "le tthe chips fall where they may" for decades.
Hell, it's arguable that Congress's willingness to do so is the entire basis for the SCOTUS's "Major Questions Doctrine", in that Congress often is (including in this case) willing to let the Executive interpret (and reinterpret) the laws they passed. Face it, if Congress wasn't willing to do so, they could have killed the HEROES Act as OBE and moot back when it was first mentioned as a vehicle for student loan forgiveness. All those agencies that the SCOUTS thinks have too much independent authority? Congress could rein them in anytime it wanted.
Hell, even if they don't want to actually change legislation, they could always retain their own lawyers and intervene (would almost certainly be granted in cases like this) to argue that yeah, this isn't what they intended.
But in most of these cases, they don't. Congress, regardless of whether it's controlled by Republicans or Democrats, is often willing to delegate authority and then sit back and let it go.
I'll agree with citing the reluctance of Congress to do its job responsibly
I know people here are mostly focused on the legal issue, but with so many people getting up in arms about $10k in forgiveness, I just keep wondering — how are they going to react when they find out that much larger amounts of forgiveness has been written into law for years, and very soon people will be forgiven balances in the hundreds of thousands of dollars?
So the case will most likely be decided by either the Standing question or the Major Doctrine question.
Two things that have no basis in the Constitution or laws, and 100% exist because the court said it does.
Yeah, this checks out.
Anybody defending Biden here shouldn’t be complaining about violating the constitution.
Have I been "defending Biden here"?
Let me check...
As of this posting, in one thread I'm saying "yeah, congress absolutely could have intervened if it had wanted to, and it's meaningful that they didn't"
In another I'm pointing out a poster appears to be motivated by spite and envy, and how that's a shitty basis for policy.
In one I responded to a guy that suggested student loans were unconstitutional by pointing out an obvious (and probably undesirable to that post) outcome if that outcome prevails.
In some more spots I'm commenting about politicians and posters that are more motivated by spite/hate then good policy.
And here I'm pointing out (correctly) that the case will probably ride on one SCOTUS-devised policy or another.
Notably, what I have not done, is defend (or attack) anything on the merits.
If you translate that to "defend Biden", that says more about you then me.
But since you seem to care what I think: I don't care about student loan forgiveness itself. I paid my loans off years ago, and unlike some people I'm not bitter about the idea that other people will have an easier time then myself.
The actual "legal" fight itself? Sorry, but no one has managed to convince me that it matters. SCOTUS will make a political decision and then write some pretty rhetoric to justify their decision. But the law itself is irrelevant.
But that law is irrelevant? Is relevant. And that is my critique in this thread.
I interpreted the post as saying that the two logic paths that lead to overturn of the EO are illegitimate. Which is at least indirectly defending Biden.
If I misinterpreted your point then I messed up. But I can’t see how else to read it.
If the SCOTUS solves the case with standing, that'll be letting the EO stand (ha) and loan forgiveness going out.
So yes. You, very fundamentally, misunderstood both me and this article.
So I asked above and didn’t see an answer, or maybe I couldn’t find it in the noise, so I’ll ask here as a distinct question.
Do we know if any of the loans being forgiven are private loans? If so, do we know how those loans are being handled financially under the terms of this order? Certainly we’re reimbursing any of those that exist by paying off the remaining principal balance, right?
"While there still are some questions, there’s one thing we know for sure: The Biden administration is not canceling private student loans."
https://www.cnbc.com/select/private-student-loan-forgiveness-biden/
My unpopular take:
1) Missouri clearly has standing. That doesn’t seem like a difficult question. 2) The Heroes Act does not authorize this executive action. 3) The President has the inherent authority to cancel debts owed to the United States. This isn’t an exercise of lawmaking authority that binds third parties to do anything. It’s waiving the government’s own claims, which is a quintessentially executive function. 4) Although Congress could limit the President’s authority to waive these particular debts, it has not done so. 5) It's possible that a subsequent administration could undo loan forgiveness.
But why argue the law of it when Biden's continued attempts to do something ruled not legal shows he doesn't care if it is legal
There is some cowardice in REASON and maybe the SCOTUS...because....how many times can you dispute the law by continuous application of something rejected, rejected in state, district, and federal court. I would move to hold Biden in contempt of court.
Will the circle be ungroekn-- says the popular song.
And in finance and economics there is never the simple contractor-contractee that you argue based on. If Biden were to do this , trust in legal standing of contracts suffers badly.
In 1931, Coolidge said that contracts are a valuable part of the country's property, and that they would be worthless without the support of law and order.
Libertarian? And not blasting the obvious unfairness and stupidity of this ? Then you are not libertarian.