The Volokh Conspiracy
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Let's Talk Pork!
Not the political kind, the real kind, the stuff you get from pigs
The Supreme Court has a pretty interesting, and potentially very important, "dormant commerce clause" case before it this term - National Pork Producers Council v. Ross. Dormant commerce clause doctrine is a tangled, internally-contradictory mess, and this case gives the Court an opportunity to clarify - or to even more thoroughly mess up - some important principles governing state power in a national marketplace.
The relevant facts (taken here from the opinion below) are straightforward:
California (through Proposition 12, passed by the voters in 2018) bans the sale of uncooked pork products if the seller knows (or should know) that the meat came from a breeding pig that was confined "in a cruel manner." The law defines that to include, among other things, providing less than 24 square feet of living space - roughly the size of two bath towels - per breeding pig. California accounts for around 13% of total pork consumption in the U.S.; virtually all of the pork sold in California (>99%) comes from producers in other States. At present, only around 4% of U.S. pork producers meet California's space requirements for breeding pigs.
The Pork Producers Council (PPC) challenge this law on ground that it violates the Dormant Commerce Clause. They concede that the law does not fall under the DCC's prohibition against State laws that "discriminate" against out-of-state producers in favor of in-state producers; Prop 12, they acknowledge, treats in-state and out-of-state pork producers and sellers alike.
They rely instead on two of the other strands of DCC doctrine:
- First and foremost, that the CA law "impermissibly regulates extraterritorial conduct" outside of California's borders by compelling out-of-state producers, as a practical matter, to change their operations (at considerable cost) so as to comply with California standards.
- Second, that it imposes "excessive burdens on interstate commerce without advancing any legitimate local interest." California's "philosophical preferences about conduct occurring almost entirely outside California," and its "desire to prevent what California considers animal cruelty that is occurring entirely outside the State's borders," cannot justify the burdens imposed on pork producers nationwide.
[Quotations above are from the PPC's brief, available here ]
The "extra-territoriality" claim is especially important and potentially far-reaching. All sides agree that California may not actually compel pork producers in Iowa or Arizona - in the sense of imposing a legal obligation on them enforceable by means of a fine or other punishment - to adopt California's pig-breeding standards, just as it may not compel businesses in Iowa or Arizona to abide by California's minimum wage rules, or California's business licensure rules, or California's public accommodation law, and so forth.
While this principle of territorial allocation of state authority is clear enough, it has proven a little tricky to pinpoint exactly where, in the Constitution (or elsewhere? the "common law of nations"?), this prohibition is articulated; as Prof. Douglas Laycock once put it*, the prohibition against extra-territorial exercises of state coercive power was "so obvious that the Founders neglected to state it." Much ink has been spilled over the question whether such action violates the Dormant Commerce Clause, or the Due Process Clause, or both, and the Court may take this opportunity to weigh in on that question. But wherever it comes from, the principle itself seems quite firmly established.
*See Douglas Laycock, Equal Citizens of Equal and Territorial States: The Constitutional Foundations of Choice of Law, 92 Colum. L. Rev. 249, 251 (1992)
At the same time, it is likewise true, generally speaking, that California may constitutionally impose its particular local standards - regarding product labelling, or product safety, etc. - on goods and services brought in from out-of-state and used or sold in California. Such laws may, as a practical matter, have extra-territorial effects; out-of-state businesses may have to alter their practices, possibly significantly, with regard to goods destined for sale in California, changing their method of manufacture or their packaging or labelling. But they are under no legal obligation to make those changes unless and until they choose to avail themselves of the California market and ship their goods there.
In the case at hand, California's position is: That's all we're doing - applying our local standards to goods that are sold in California. We're not compelling pork producers in Iowa or Arizona or in any other State to adopt our particular standards. Pork producers in Iowa are under no obligation whatsoever to change their pig-breeding practices because of Proposition 12; they need do so only if they wish to avail themselves of selling their pork in California.
The PPC, needless to say, sees things differently. This is not, they say, run-of-the-mill state regulation of in-state sales:
"Though Proposition 12 applies to sales of pork meat in California, its practical effects are almost entirely extraterritorial. There are very few sow farms in California. The State imports 99.87% of the pork it consumes. Proposition 12 therefore governs the housing conditions of sows located almost exclusively outside of California, [and] the practical effect of the regulation is to control conduct beyond the boundaries of the State."
Moreover, they claim, Proposition 12 does - "as a practical matter" - compel out-of-state breeders to comply with its standards, because of the structure of the pork market in the U.S.:
"Proposition 12's extraterritorial effects are not limited to the 13% of U.S. pork production [sold] in California. A market pig progresses through multiple farms outside of California as it is raised, and then is processed into many different cuts of meat that are sold across the country. If any part of a pig is sold in California, the sow it came from must be Proposition 12-compliant. And sow farmers cannot say with certainty that no meat from any of their pigs will be sold in California, after those pigs pass through nursery and finishing farms, a packer-slaughter plant, then distributors, before their meat reaches consumers. As a practical matter, all or most [sow] farmers will be forced to comply with California requirements." [emphasis added]
In other words, because pig farmers can't tell if some piece of Elsie the Sow might end up in California, they'll have to give her 24 square feet of space, lest they find themselves violating California law when her feet end up in sausage destined for San Francisco.
That's a pretty interesting variation on the extra-territoriality theme. I don't think the Court will buy it, though I could be wrong. That kind of "compulsion" is entirely a function of the particular configuration, at this particular point in time, of the pork market, and California is neither responsible for that nor need it adjust its regulatory affairs to take it into account. The Dormant Commerce Clause does not and should not be read to give any industry protection for the particular manner in which it has chosen to configure its nationwide distribution schemes. That configuration can change in response to market and regulatory pressures; if enough pig breeders don't want to alter their practices to bring themselves into compliance with Proposition 12, the pork distribution market will surely respond; there is no inherent reason why distributors can't offer "California-free" contracts, promising that none of products in their product stream will be shipped to California retailers, and that will solve the "compulsion" dilemma.
While I am reasonably confident that the Court will not go along with PPC's claim that Proposition 12 violates the "extra-territoriality" prong of the Dormant Commerce Clause, I'm not at all sure how it will handle their alternative claim - that the law imposes "excessive burdens on interstate commerce without advancing any legitimate local interest." California's interest here, they assert, is just a "philosophical preference," a "desire to prevent what California considers animal cruelty that is occurring entirely outside the State's borders." Even if California would have the right to apply a law directed at health and safety against pork imported from out-of-state - a certificate that the pigs were trichinosis-free, say - Proposition 12 has no health and safety rationale, and therefore cannot outweigh or justify the burdens imposed on pork producers nationwide.
I'm scratching my head over that one; I'm not even sure where the Court might look to answer the question as to whether prevention of cruelty to animals is, or is not, a "legitimate" public purpose.
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I'm scratching my head over that one; I'm not even sure where the Court might look to answer the question as to whether prevention of cruelty to animals is, or is not, a "legitimate" public purpose.
They'll do what they always do -- make something up. Whichever way they come out.
California (through Proposition 12, passed by the voters in 2018) bans the sale of uncooked pork products if the seller knows (or should know) that the meat came from a breeding pig that was confined "in a cruel manner."
So this does not apply to COOKED pork products? Why? They don't care if cooked pork products come from pigs that were cruelly treated?
Presumably the theory is that cooked pork products will generally be so commoditised (= cut into standard weight pieces and packaged) that it would be unreasonable to expect sellers to keep track of where every piece comes from.
Which the OP seems to think is also the case for uncooked pork.
Who knows, maybe all of this will end with DCC having some kind of proportionality test. But the relative proportionality of applying this law to certain categories of conduct is definitely the kind of thing you'd want a legislature to think about.
How about an, "Is this actually a property of the product in the first place?" test?
If you can take a piece of pork, and by subjecting it to laboratory testing, determine if it was produced in compliance with the law, then California is regulating the pork on the basis of an actual property of the pork.
If it's impossible to take a piece, and by any possible testing determine if it was produced in compliance, then California isn't regulating the pork itself, they're regulating the conduct. Which they clearly can't do.
No, they're not regulating the conduct. Here's the test to determine what they're regulating: what can you be fined or imprisoned for doing?
Under California's law, can an out-of-state pork producer be fined or imprisoned for raising its pigs "cruelly"? No, it cannot. Which means that the manner of raising pigs is not what's being regulated.
Under California's law, can an out-of-state pork producer be fined or imprisoned for selling cruel pork in California? Yes. (So, of course, can an in-state pork producer.) So that's what's being regulated: the sale.
Let's extend that for a second. Can California law fine or imprison an individual or company for selling a pork product from a state that has a GOP Legislature or Governor? Why or why not?
" Can California law fine or imprison an individual or company for selling a pork product from a state that has a GOP Legislature or Governor?"
Likely not, because it's much simpler to identify the issues around what Professor Post calls the "extra-territoriality" prong:
But what if California decides it is a "legitimate local interest" to prevent cruelty to both the breeding legislators and pigs of other states (by either being forced to live in a space the size of two bath towels)? Can they forbid pork and legislator-derived "long pig" produced in contravention to this principle from being sold in California?
Why or why not? Show your work.
It seems to me that if the legal test is a "legitimate local interest" the main burden falls on "local." It's not that easy to argue that preventing animal cruelty is other than a legitimate interest of the state government. The question is whether preventing animal cruelty in Alabama is a legitimate local interest of the State of California.
There's obviously a more or less tautological analysis - ie it's a "local" interest if it excites the concerns of Californians (in the case of propositions) or California legislators (in the case of laws.) But if this is what "local" means then it's hard to see how a state law (or proposition) could ever be other than "local". How could it pass into law otherwise ?
So more likely the "local" condition requires that the mischief that is to be prevented is local.
Anyway SCOTUS will decide what the law is. As for what it should be, I'm inclined to believe that California should be allowed to set its own rules.
That is lawyerly and singularly unsatisfying.
"We're not telling you you can't do it. We're telling you if you do it, you cannot sell the proceedes."
It's the thought that counts. They'd jail 'em for doing it if they could.
See also abortion.
I'm thinking of lab-grown gems, blood diamonds, and (eventually) lab-grown meat.
Caring about provenance, even when it doesn't affect the product in any material way, is nothing new.
State versus National laws....
Differentiate the two.
First thing I thought of: I oppose GMO agriculture, and will avoid its products if I can. I do not do that because I fear any adverse health effects from GMO. I do it because I think GMO agriculture is shaping up as an ecological disaster.
If I had power to convince my state's legislature to outlaw GMO products in grocery stores, or even just require GMO labeling, I would do that. It would be rational, by my estimate, to suppose GMO anywhere is a menace to ecology everywhere, including in my state.
Damage could happen in at least two ways. One would be direct biological damage consequent to GMO disruptions of habitat and species diversity. The other would be a second order effect, forced by market economics. If GMO agriculture with unreckoned externalities offers market efficiencies compared to non-GMO agriculture which spared the externalities, the latter could be driven out of my state, with consequent harm to in-state ecology.
With that as predicate, it is not hard to imagine pro-GMO advocates—empowered by a court decision saying you can't use policy preferences as a basis to ban products—attacking legally all anti-GMO advocacy. That could decide arbitrarily in court what will be the outcome of what ought to be a society-wide debate over GMO advantages vs ecological effects.
So you have a different dumb anti-scientific argument than other cranks.
Nieporent, some people suffer from a zero-experience relationship to the natural world. Maybe that includes you. If you have never interacted much with nature, it isn't surprising that you would conclude it was a subject fit only for scientific study.
You don't need science to predict adverse GMO ecological impacts. You just need to have actually seen first-hand what farm fields look like on old-fashioned, non-GMO farms. Then compare that to a field full of GMO crops. Species diversity and abundance is startlingly different between them. Non-GMO agriculture hosts myriad species of plants, insects, mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, and fish, with little or no human effort required to make it happen.
Some of those organisms, especially among the plants, birds, and insects, some farmers regard as detrimental. That creates a market to support the pesticide industry, the weed killer industry, and, these days, the GMO industry. Each is an attempt to kill unwanted organisms, and thus improve yields of wanted crops.
Compared to GMO, traditional weed killers and pesticides are paltry, inefficient killing agents, but have an additional downside as well. Use of them creates notable health risks.
GMO has probably reduced the health risks, which is good as far as it goes. To see what a short, unpromising distance that is, get out of your car sometime on a rural byway, and take a good long look at a GMO corn crop in the field. It is astounding. Acre upon acre show nothing but perfect corn plants, growing out of mysteriously clean-looking soil. No insect repellent needed, because almost all the insects are gone. A lot of insects have specific plant dependencies, and in a GMO cornfield, it had better be a dependency for corn plants. Roundup took care of the rest. No birdsong, because the only birds you are likely to see will be on the wing, on their way somewhere else, to try to find something to eat. No box turtles, no snakes, no toads. No voles, no mice, no foxes. No rabbits, no possums dead on the road. No skunks. At night, no bats and no owls. The bats needed the missing insects. The owls ate the mice, the voles, and maybe some rabbits—which all depended on the plants the Roundup killed.
GMO may deliver abundance, but it is near-sterile abundance. It will not keep nature alive.
I have a suggestion for you. You do not live too far from the Bombay Hook National Wildlife Refuge, in Delaware. Go down there early next July and take a look. GMO fields border the refuge directly. The transition between them is measured in a few feet. First get out of your car and look at farm fields adjacent to the refuge. Then drive into the refuge, get out of your car and go down any trail you see which leads into a woods. What happens next will cure you in no more than a few minutes of any lingering belief that it takes scientific study to see that GMO agriculture and natural ecology are incompatible.
There are different kinds of GMO. Plants that are engineered to deter crop pests might have some spillover effect on non-target insects. Plants that are engineered to be herbicide resistant have no direct effect, but enable ecologically unsound practices.
I was told by somebody who used to work in the industry that farmers are told to rotate GMO and non-GMO crops but they would rather chase the short term profit and let the future fend for itself. Farmers are also told to leave a strip of non-GMO plants near the field. Same story.
Blah, blah, blah. Let me guess: now you're going to say, "Yes, I bloviated at length but I never actually said the words, 'I am an expert.'"
Nieporent, this is you at your stupidest. Do you even understand what the method is for use of herbicide tolerant GMO agriculture? Or how extensive its use has become?
Among U.S, corn, soybean, and cotton crops, the planted varieties are now over 90 percent herbicide tolerant. Here is what that means in real life: on all those acres, every year, nearly every plant species which is not a crop species gets exterminated. And every organism which depends on those exterminated plants disappears in turn. That includes all the mammals, all the birds, all the reptiles, all the amphibians, and worst of all, all the insects.
In rough general terms, that means acreage equal to the entire combined area (not just the agricultural area) of California, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Kentucky and Tennessee, gets mass destruction of all naturally occurring plant life annually.
That just happened, courtesy of the free market, without any particular thought given to it as an ecological phenomenon. Imagine that activity instead as a policy proposal, framed this way: in exchange for notable increases in agricultural productivity, each year every non-crop plant throughout that multi-state area will be destroyed, along with every living creature which depends on those plants, directly or indirectly.
Do you suppose you could get even one state to agree to any such lunatic policy? The reason it happened is because most people, including people in agricultural states, do not understand what activities it takes to make herbicide tolerant GMO agriculture work. They abridge their thinking to a magic formula: science delivers more food on the same land, cool. In short, most people are about as ignorant as you are about both the agricultural realities, and the ecological consequences.
Of course this is not a scientific monograph. Wade into the details and you can criticize some of the generalizations. You will not find anything to much alter the truth of what I am telling you, or to notably affect the scale of the threat it poses.
John F. Carr, that is a useful contribution. Thank you.
If you want to ban GMO agriculture in your state you can do so at the state level.
If you want to work at the national level and control what happens in other states then you need to lobby Congress, not your state legislature.
California could have regulated how pigs are raised in California. Instead, they chose to regulate how pigs are raised everywhere and subsequently sold in California.
That tells me that California wants to tell everyone else how to raise pigs.
On the contrary. California didn't regulate how pigs are raised anywhere. It regulates how pigs are sold.
On the contrary, perhaps you should stick to a language you understand. Next time add Reading Comprehension 101 to understand "in practice".
Why did you put quotation marks around words that appear nowhere in your earlier comment? (And indeed nowhere on this page)
You mean there's a rule that I can only use words which were in the article?
No, but there's a rule that quotation marks are used to quote something.
That’s a use for quotation marks. As you know (because I’ve seen you use them), it’s not the only way they can be used in colloquial English.
True, but I thought I'd keep it simple, because Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf was already becoming quite agitated and rude at the simplest level of conversation.
It regulated how pork that is to be sold in the state is raised anywhere on the planet. Pork farming in California in minuscule. Obviously the target was out of state producers.
I'm no expert on the dormant commerce clause (if that was taught in law school while I was a student, I must have slept through it). But it seems reasonable to distinguish between (a) extraterratorial behavior that has an effect on the product sold in California, and (b) extraterratorial behavior that doesn't have such an effect. And if the theory of the dormant commerce clause is to prevent a State from imposing unreasonable burdens on interstate commerce, isn't this an appropriate situation to apply the dormant clause?
I guess the question is if it's unreasonable. Practically I don't see how this is different than auto manufacturers. Most cars are produced elsewhere, yet have to in some form adhere to California air quality standards.
In other words, because pig farmers can't tell if some piece of Elsie the Sow might end up in California, they'll have to give her 24 square feet of space, lest they find themselves violating California law when her feet end up in sausage destined for San Francisco.
The farmers definitely wouldn't be violating California law, unless they themselves are selling meat in California. But they might risk not being able to sell their pigs/meat.
Yes, it's a matter of economics. One solution is to implement two different hog husbandry rules, one California compliant, one not. And charge more for the compliant.
Whether that is economically feasible is questionable. Perhaps the hog producers believe it is not.
But in the times when food production is more and more specialized, I would think it could be done.
I look at this with the historical fact that New England agriculture has been destroyed by the larger (and lower cost) farms in the Midwest over the past 200 years.
Let's keep this simple and just deal with dairy farming and liquid milk. The Midwest can produce this cheaper because they have no rocks, larger farms, are closer to grain supplies (another thing NE lost), and economy of scale. And now with Interstate Highways, they can quickly & cheaply ship tankers of milk to Massachusetts. (And the MA dairy farms are dying...)
So let's say that Massachusetts passes a law that says that all milk sold in the Commonwealth must come from a herd of less than 80 cows. This can be justified on a health basis and an animal cruelty basis (small dairy farmers know their cows by name). More importantly, while it doesn't outright ban milk from the midwest, it just raises their prices to those of Massachusetts -- and the midwest is still 1000 miles away, with transportation costs.
The end result of this is that it would protect Massachusetts milk by making Ohio milk more expensive. But isn't this exactly what the Interstate Commerce clause was intended to prevent?!?
What stops a similar law from trying to effectively export California worker laws? For example, no product can be sold in California manufactured by employees making less than $15/hour.
How is that legally different than mandating cage-free eggs (which I believe is the same law as the pork one here)?
Nothing. And internationally this happens all the time and is not considered as something that offends against the comity between nations.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_1145
See also the EU foreign subsidies regulation, which goes after companies that are subsidised by foreign governments: https://competition-policy.ec.europa.eu/foreign-subsidies-regulation_en
...and the EU carbon border adjustment, which prevents companies from avoiding EU carbon taxes by moving their production facilities to countries where they're less worried about global warming.
https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/green-taxation-0/carbon-border-adjustment-mechanism_en
You do realize that none of those EU examples are even slightly relevant, right? The EU, after all, does not have a Dormant Commerce Clause.
No, it has a very much un-dormant provision on the free movement of goods, which is litigated on a daily basis:
The point that I was making is that the laws I listed have never been considered as offending against the comity of nations on the grounds of their extraterritorial effect, which is relevant for the US conversation we were having because extraterritorial effect is a major (the only?) rationale for why things might be struck down under the DCC.
By the way, under the cold hard light of day it occurs to me that there's one case where foreign countries very much did object. And that's when the EU applied its carbon tax to every mile of air travel to and from a EU destination. See Air Transport Association of America and Others v Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (2011).
Now you claim to understand the implicit "in practice". Make up your mind -- do, or do not -- one or the other.
Well, of course there IS this little difference that nations are legally entitled to regulate trade across their borders, and US states are not.
Yes, but they're not allowed to regulate each other's carbon emissions or minimum wages.
Doesn't matter, because they CAN regulate that trade, and on any basis they want.
And California, legally, can't.
But differentiating international commerce law from domestic commerce law is quite important....
There is no international federal government or International Commerce Clause in an international Constitution.
No, but there is comity between nations, and diplomatic complaints if said comity isn't respected.
That principle defends the lawsuit (not necessarily the outcome) as it seeks to maintain comity.
But you are using your examples to justify the CA law.
That seems to be a misalignment between parts of this particular with your perceived defense of CA.
I should clarify that you are using your example to defend against a particular argument against the CA law. I don't know how you feel about it overall.
Laws strictly regulating wages and working conditions in factories and offices would ban imports from Asia. California wouldn't hurt itself that badly.
Yeah, I don't buy the PPC argument.
Under the foie gras precedents, California could quite clearly ban the sale of all uncooked pork in the state without running afoul of the Commerce Clause. As long as the requirements it sets for pork to be exempt from such a ban do not favor California producers, the exemptions don't violate the Commerce Clause either.
If you regulate the production of something that is barely produced in your state it’s obvious where the targets reside - somewhere other than your state.
Producers have the choice to either stop selling pork in California and lose 15% of their revenue or comply with the California law and jack prices up for all 50 states to cover the increased capital and operating cost. Seems to me that affects the commerce clause, but I’m certainly not an expert and could be wrong.
As others have noted, they're not regulating production, they're regulating sales. If a pork producer in Iowa sells its pork in the Midwest and the East, California's law does not affect them.
Sorry, but they are regulating how pork that is sold in California is raised. If it’s not raised a certain way they prohibit its sale. That’s de facto regulating production.
Ever see free range eggs in supermarkets?
The living conditions of livestock are an important part of the end product.
California is allowed to regulate the end product.
So if Texas passed a law that mandated that in order for avocados to be sold in Texas they need to be grown in trees that are 100 yards apart, that’s cool. Right? Just regulating the end product.
And I think that's the answer. Around here free range eggs are sold next to caged eggs. Choice is good.
If CA mandated that producers label their products it would be one thing. But the ban, when there is little local production of pork, is a problem.
Nope. Just sale. Nobody at all is required to comply with California's rules, which is the sine qua non of "regulating."
To both of y’all, you’re picking a legalistic nit.
De facto, de cracto. Who cares?
Whatever they’re regulating the issue is that it’s going to have an impact on production such that it will result in substantial price increases in 49 filled with citizens who have no say in the matter. Thus the conflict. Absent that impact nobody cares.
I do. I'm a formalist.
Or they can create two different channels-- which is what the meat industry already does with cage free stuff, kosher meats, grass fed beef, etc.
If California decided to ban all sales of uncooked pork, the producers would lose 15% of their revenue, period. And that would not violate the Commerce Clause, even though it clearly affects the pork producers and their commerce in pork products. So it’s not enough to show that the law would negatively affect pork producers in order to claim a violation of the Commerce Clause. Generally, you have to show discrimination against out-of-state producers, which this clearly isn’t.
And the foie gras cases since California’s 2012 ban establish that, in fact, it is permissible for California to ban sales of a product on the basis that the production method seems inhumane to Californians. After all, it is still legal to sell duck or goose liver in California, as long as the bird wasn’t force-fed; it just won’t be tender like proper foie gras.
So the whole argument from the PPC, given the foie gras precedents, seems to amount to “Well, unlike with foie gras, it’s actually possible to produce pork in accordance with the California rules, and therefore it’s improperly coercive on out-of-state producers for for California to give them an option to comply with the rules in order to sell pork in California.”
Which, well, maybe a court will go along, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
The other problem that the Supreme Court had at oral argument with the "California's a big market" line of reasoning is that it implies that it would not violate the Dormant Commerce Clause if, e.g., Delaware passed these same rules, since it's such a small state. But that's nonsensical as a constitutional test; it can't be permissible for Delaware to pass these laws but not for California to do so.
Delaware would likewise be impermissible in passing such a law. The market forces would make it more clear.
Really, we go all the way back to Gibbons v Ogden. This is, at its core, interstate commerce. It's "designed" to interfere in interstate commerce. As such, California has no say in it, and cannot Constitutionally interfere.
It's not designed to interfere in interstate commerce. This law makes no distinction whatsoever between interstate and intrastate commerce.
Because, as stated, >99% of pork products come from outside California...
It's functionally designed to interfere in that commerce.
Nothing stops pork producers relocating to California. If they did that, they'd still be subject to these rules even for pork that is sold out of state. So arguably Proposition 12 is functionally designed to dis-incentivise investment in California.
Say Massachusetts did -- all truck traffic into NH, VT, & ME has to go through MA and thus MA is banning it in NH, VT, & ME. That, explicitly, is what the commerce clause was intended to prohibit.
The commerce clause is not designed to prohibit anything. The commerce clause is a grant of power to congress, not a prohibition of power to the states. I
Take that up with James Madison.
https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_10_3s2.html#:~:text=Mr.%20Madison.%20Whether,under%20one%20authority.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Granting a power to Congress automatically, per the Constitution, denies it to the states.
Nope. Logic fail.
It says that a power that isn't delegated to the U.S. is reserved to the states, or the people. It says nothing one way or the other about a power that is delegated to the U.S.
There is at least one more option. Since no one producer controls over 85% of the pork market that means no one producer actually needs CA to maintain its current market share. That means that one or more producers can pivot to produce only CA-compliant pork, selling exclusively to CA at a higher price, while the rest will continue as they always have, simply labeling their products "not for sale in California" when it goes to market.
The CA-compliant producers will capture the CA market share ceded by the non-compliant producers, but the non-compliant producers will capture an equal share of the non-CA market ceded by the now uncompetitive (due to the higher price) compliant producers.
Don’t California and Massachusetts have stricter emissions requirements for new cars and effectively impose these standards on out of state auto manufacturers?
The federal government — which is not bound by the Dormant Commerce Clause — expressly allows California to have stricter emissions rules.
How can the Federal government allow California to do something unconstitutional?
Which provision of the constitution do you think it violates?
The assumption of Mr. Affleck, supra, was presumably that it violated the dormant commerce clause. That's why he brought it up, and that also seems to be the assumption behind your response to him. The Federal government may not be bound by the DCC (obviously), but that doesn't mean they can authorise the states to violate it.
Why couldn't they? Isn't Congress specifically empowered to regulate interstate commerce?
I can see the laws now. No goods can be sold in state X produced by someone who's had an abortion. No goods can be sold in state Y produced by someone who owns a gun.
Sure, that's just regulating what can be sold in one state, not what happens in another.
So stop selling pork to CA until the law is repealed.
Is it even legally possible for the pork industry to do that, though? Because it does seem like the obvious thing to do.
Perhaps it would be actionable as a conspiracy in restraint of trade, or something like that?
Why not? (Contractual obligations aside.) Why would they have to conspire to stop selling in California if selling in California is unprofitable? And under s. 2 of the Sherman Act the bar for refusal to deal is much, much higher than this.
Sure. California's law bans sale of pork produced in a manner that doesn't meet the new law's rules. If you don't produce pork in accordance with the rules, it's California law that's prohibiting you from selling it to California. Conspiracy to obey California law isn't actionable.
I think Brett's theory is that all the pork producers get together and agree, "We won't restructure our processes to comply with California's laws." That might be a conspiracy in restraint of trade.
But I don't know why he's thinking that would be the scenario. Why would each producer not decide for itself whether to undertake that restructuring? If it turns out to be not very expensive for them to do so, then this is much ado about nothing. If it turns out to raise that producer's costs significantly, then that producer would be sacrificing sales to other states (because the other manufacturers would undercut it) for the sake of selling to California. Which is a choice.
It sounds like you're saying it is acceptable for California to decide to make pork more expensive for everyone, but if the pork sellers decided to stop doing business in California to make pork cheaper for everyone, you'd say they are committing some kind of crime?
No; I'm saying that if the pork sellers collectively decide to stop doing business in California, then they are (or might well be) committing some kind of crime. That's the way antitrust laws work: decisions that are legal when made by an individual business are illegal when made in collusion with competitors.
A pork seller who says, "Complying with this law drives up my prices too much; I'm not going to sell in California so that this law doesn't apply to me," hasn't committed any crime.
The problem is that the way the pork industry is structured, they more or less WOULD have to do it collectively, as I understand. Or restructure at great expense, taking on most of the costs of compliance without getting the sales.
Maybe it's worth doing once, just to teach California a lesson. But to do it, they have to agree to do it, piecemeal won't work.
That doesn't make any sense. Each company's cost of restructuring would be proportionate to its volume and revenue, and so each company's decision on whether restructuring is profitable or not should be the (broadly) same as the calculation if you add all companies together. Only inefficient companies would struggle more.
You seem to think it's a very vertically integrated business, when it isn't.
Does it matter? A farmer's decision, a slaughterhouse's decision, a processor or distributer's decision, all come down to the same factors. Some will choose to pivot to supply CA, others will not.
Really it's only the farmers that need to comply or not, the rest of the chain should be able to accommodate both types without much difficulty. A slaughterhouse may choose to process only CA-compliant pigs one day a week, and the non-compliant pigs the other 6 days. Same for distributers that package the pork for sale, one day a week becomes "CA-compliant day" and the rest is business as usual.
As always . . . not a lawyer but . . . .
Where's "Full faith and credit on this?"
Presumably, USDA inspectors on-site at the slaughter/packing facility determine that the meat can be sold legally anywhere in the US. How can California now say, "sorry, not here."
Were it so inclined, Congress could pass a law prohibiting any restrictions on the sale of meat beyond a federal inspection. It hasn’t done so yet.
None of which, of course, has anything to do with the full faith and credit clause.
Per the rulings in the foie gras cases, Congress can preempt California with a Federal law, but unless there's an on-point law, we go back to general Dormant Commerce Clause principles. If there was a preemption here, the pork producers would presumably be pointing to it, rather than trying to make an argument under the Commerce Clause. The foie gras cases involved much gesturing at Federal poultry inspection laws, and the courts ruled they didn't, as written, preempt California.
This reminds me of PA Liquor Laws. Try to buy alcohol online and have it shipped to PA. You can't, because the state has forbidden all retail sale of hard liquor except by state owned stores. Technically I'm not even allowed to cross state lines to make a purchase, though most of us who live close enough to make that practical do so because it's much cheaper to do so and there is usually better variety.
My point is that very much sounds like restraint of trade.
Oddly enough, the conclusion of the foie gras cases was that Californians may buy it mail order and have it shipped in for personal use, or cross state lines to buy it and bring it back. That would presumably also apply to pork.
The 21st Amd gave states power to regulate trade in alcohol.
Animal husbandry isn't something you can flip on and off like a switch. Once the law is repealed, it would take the industry a good while to ramp production back up to cover the ~15% capacity it shut down. In the meantime, pork will be scarce and prices will go up for everyone.
In the meantime, facilities would be running under capacity, which means people get laid off (and may not be available again when you need them), and a producer's fixed costs will represent a higher proportion of its revenue (which almost inevitably leads to higher prices). And keep in mind this is a situation where the producers won't have the least clue if or when the law will be repealed, so practically speaking they'll have to plan as if it's long-term and implement price hikes and layoffs quickly.
That's just off the top of my head -- I'm sure there are other reasons it just ain't that simple.
You could just as easily day there would be greater supply for the other 49 which would have the effect of lowering prices and increase sales. I know if I could get bacon for $2 a pound again I'd buy it 10 pounds or more at a time.
No doubt there would be an unavoidable glut in the timeslice between the CA law becoming effective and the producers working excess animals through the system. But again, in this scenario the producers can't know if/when the law will ever be repealed, so if they didn't start cutting production to address the glut they'd be setting themselves up to take significant losses for the foreseeable future. I doubt most would have the inclination to do that, or the bankroll even if they wanted to.
Why? Up the standards, up the price, bish-bash, there you go. Lotta whining about people wanting a better quality of meat. You know it was discovered recently that US meat processing factories were using child labour?
Time for the Florida legislature to pass a Bill requiring that uncooked pork sold in Florida cannot come from breeding pigs raised in "environmentally wasteful" conditions - defined as more than than 23.5 square feet of living space – roughly the size of two bath towels – per breeding pig.
That would actually be as much of a pain as the California law, for pork producers. It imposes the same massive record keeping and uniformity, and a lot of producers give their pigs plenty of room right now.
It's cute that you think raising pigs doesn't already come with massive record keeping.
This would be exponentially more.
It would be one bit more.
Well, probably 8 bits, but 7 would be unused. But the kind of memory management necessary to use the minimum bits necessary to track Boolean variables is overkill in most modern systems.
Well if you are going to get all geeky about it (I like geeky) I suppose you could take some of the pig's "junk" DNA and engineer the nucleotides into a sort of serial number that could be databased to an individual farm which would make it easy to track the condition in which they were raised.
No it would be a lot more of a pain, because it would mean that it was legally impossible for pig producers to generate pork that was saleable in both California and Florida. Under the described market conditions whereby each little piggie gets mixed up with every other little piggie, such that any pork on sale in California (or Florida) contains a bit of every little piggie.
In other words, it takes five seconds to come up with a state law which is the opposite of the California law - ie which makes anything saleable in California unsaleable somewhere else.
Thus if SCOTUS rules that the California law is OK that does NOT mean that the rest of the country has to dance to California's tune.
Obviously California's hope and expectation is that pigmeat intermediaries will impose the California rule on pig producers, so that they can sell their pork in California. But if a big GOP state retailiates then the pigmeat intermediaries have to choose between excluding themselves from California or from Florida (or Texas or both.)
That just means that the pig industry would have to set up a super expensive "California-only" pig meat supply chain.
Just a reminder that the dormant commerce clause is only in play in situations in which Congress hasn't chosen to regulate. (When Congress has, it's the regular ol' active commerce clause.) If this proves to be a problem, Congress can step in and decide what the rules should be.
Congress is going to…….do something? Something controversial?
Cdgfdhy#r42!$
Sorry, I just spit my drink all over my keyboard.
Ain't federalism wonderful?
Absolutely
I don't know if you were being serious but that would be completely on brand for DeSantis.
I don't have a particular dog in this fight, I'm just excited to see some light shone on this weird corner of the law.
It's about time the US gets a decent dormant commerce clause. The various states do way too many things that blatantly make life difficult for out-of-state competitors. But this isn't it.
An interesting discussion concerning federalism and states' rights.
The discussion concerning certain mailed pills should be interesting, too.
It's an interesting question, and it's a state that's basically putting a moral judgement on products sold in its state, that may violate the moral judgements of other states.
Could other states do the same? Say, for example, no products sold here can be produced by (insert moral cause...abortion, gun rights, climate change bits, etc) here.
Why stop there? Why not expand it to just "No products here can be sold from (states represented by Democratic/GOP) legislatures.
Is there a "reason" such laws couldn't be passed by states.
Public support, mostly.
There actually is...
It's Congress's power to regulate commerce among the states. Explicitly granted to it, by the US Constitution. (Ironically, what the Commerce Clause was actually intended for).
Congress would have the power to override such laws (since they're regulating interstate commerce), but if Congress does not use that power then the state law should hold.
Honest queation... where does the legal theory come from that allows states to do what the 10th Amendment seems to imply are things granted to the federal level at the exclusion of the state/local levels?
If the idea is "states can do anything up and until the fed steps in with their delegated authority" then where does it say states can't declare war or some other bizarre "normally reserved for feds only" actions?
Or is it the case that in every other topic the feds have already acted to exclude states?
Did they also exclude "the people" as this would apply to them as well?
Hope that all makes sense.
It says that states can't declare war in Article I, Section 10.
The solution seems simple to me.
California has every right to set standards for the products sold in California - the pork cuts, great content, allowable contaminants, etc.
California has no right to regulate how those products are produced unless they are produced in California. Regulation of production is the responsibility of the state or country where those products are produced.
For example, California also may not establish a minimum wage for workets who produce products sold in California or environmental standards or worker safety standards for the production of products sold in California.
Fat content, not great content
I'm skeptical of the "it's too much bookkeeping!" claim.
Every few months there's some new food safety scare. Salmonella, mad cow disease, contaiminated this, etc. and so-on.
And every time, they're able to figure out what facility the contaminated whatever came from, then reverse that to where everything from that facility went, in the timeframe where exposure could have happened.
If you can do that, then you already have a bi-direction tracking system from farm to grocery store.
The "legitimate local interest" standard reminds me of the legislative power of home rule cities in Colorado. Their power is superior to the state legislature's on issues of local importance and subordinate to the state legislature's on issues of statewide importance. One case held cities could jail drivers for speeding even though state law made it a fine only offense. The legal fiction is the city knows best how to regulate traffic within its borders.
Localities in many states can create new traffic offenses or impose penalties that don’t exist by state law. What’s the problem?
A nonpartisan thought on the matter:
The pig, if I am not mistaken
Provides us sausage, ham, and bacon.
Let others say his heart is big.
I call it stupid of the pig.
--Ogden Nash
You’ve seen pigs, right? Look at how they choose to live.
Ogden is so right
Pigs too dumb to prosper
Bacon is the best
s/b "Pigs are too dumb to prosper"
I have to wonder about the details of the supply chain for uncooked pork meat. Not just bacon but sausage as well. While I am not sure I suspect every strip of bacon in a package came from the same pig but this may not be true. On the other hand I would bet sausage produced on an industrial scale is the result of multiple pigs put into the grinder and what happens if some are CA compliant and others are not. Lets not forget that sausage is often made from what are sometimes called scraps collected when the hams, Boston Butts, and other cut are separated to be sold. I would not be shocked if the slaughtering houses basically sell the scraps to sausage makers with no chain of custody about being CA compliant or not.
Maybe there is more record keeping than I am aware of but I suspect it really only starts at the sausage maker and not at the producer/slaughter house. In any case I have to wonder just how much the record keeping raises the price.
I suspect that if the law is upheld, it’ll end up like kosher meat products, where totally separate product streams are maintained. Or at least it’s claimed they’re separate, and some authority signs off on it.
If CA wanted to put effort into enforcement (as opposed to mere virtue signaling or helping people rationalize that their bacon has become more ethical) they are going to have trouble doing more than requesting a paper trail of certifications from in state wholesalers and vendors.
They will not realistically do any on-the-ground inspections out-of-state to see if the paperwork travelling with the meat is accurate or not, and I doubt they'll get much help from the USDA. Although it would be interesting to see them try.
Thing is when animals are raised for their meat they are sold at auction and as far as I have seen there is no "paper work" provided as to how the animals are raised. As a small example my niece and nephew grew up on a cattle ranch and both raised a bull or cow every year when they were members of 4H. My niece was a sweet young lady who often took her bull or cow out of the pasture to the yard where she lived and took a hose and washed and brushed the animal. On the other hand my nephew never did anything like this but was much better at moving animals (using what was basically an old fishing pole with a cow bell attached) around the pastures to the pen where shots were given to the animals and once when my niece's bull got loose in the yard and she could not control it he had to get up from watching TV and go outside to get it back into the pen.
Point is that even animals from the same ranch are often treated differently (not just by humans but by other animals who often shove weaker animals aside to get more food). As for the kosher thing my understanding is that a rabbi (or other certified official) has to be present when the animal is killed but really has no contact, or knowledge of how the animal was raised, until just before death.
As an aside when I harvest wild hogs and take them to a local processor to process the meat he will always add additional fat to the sausage and sometimes wrap some cuts in fat netting. Point is that I have no idea where the additional fat comes from.
Bottom line is slaughter houses buy meat from various sources and I doubt there is any way to determine if those animals meet the CA standards absent some certification process. As others have noted the FDA has more than enough on it's plate to be happy about adding a CA compliant certification. So just who does CA think will be doing the leg work.
Surely you don't think that all that sludge in grease traps goes to waste do you?
This raises an interesting point. What powers does CA have to enforce this? Presumably they can't go out of state to check the heart-crossed promise of the end seller. Or even of the importer who sold it to McD's or the local grocery store. All evidence for or against following the law resides out of state for the vast majority of pork producers of pork sold in CA.
Is there anything stopping them from a "let's don't but say we did"?
CA is likely counting on the industry to establish a certification process in order to continue selling in CA. As I noted below the lack such a process would likely be considered evidence of noncompliance and result in no pork being allowed to be sold in CA.
So guilty until proven innocent?
If the SC was so inclined, could they distinguish these types of laws based on intent?
If the legislative record showed that the main concern was that Californians were eating cruel pork and that eating needed to stop, while any effects outside CA were incidental and without animus, then the law is OK because the target was in-state conduct.
If the record showed that the concern was the existence of out-of-state cruel farms and a desire to coerce them into changing, or the record showed animus toward the farms, then the law is struck down since the real target is out-of-state conduct.
IIRC one of those religious artisan versus engaged gay couple cases turned on whether the regulating commission had animus toward the artisan's religious beliefs.
Doesn’t that “known or should have known” language get CA vendors off the hook if out-of-state wholesalers are totally uninterested in providing information?
Or the wholesalers only provide a document that says something like “We have no direct knowledge that this USDA inspected meat violates the laws of any state, but no warranty or chain of custody is implied, and buyers should exercise due diligence”.
I would imagine CA would interpret the lack of a positive certification of compliance as "should have known its non-compliant."
So assume guilt and demand proof of innocence?
A lack of proof of compliance being considered prima facie evidence of noncompliance is nothing new in situations like this.
For example, if a cop pulls you over and asks to see your driver's license, and you can't or won't show it to him, the court doesn't have to prove you don't have a license, your inability to show one when requested is prima facie evidence that you don't have a license.
The Civil Rights laws serve the same “mere philosophical interest.” The idea that people’s choices about their private businesses and property are somehow wrong is, as the Supreme Court said in Heart of Atlanta, a moral interest, exactly the same kind of moral intwrest as exists here. It’s also the same interest as opposition to abortion. For that matter, the idea “All men are created equal…” is a “mere” philosophy.
I agree with Justice Thomas that it is for Congress to protect interstate commerce from “obstruction” by legislation and the entire negative commerce doctrine is a judge-made doctrine with no constitutional legitimacy. If Congress wants to enact the various policies behind it, it can do so by simple legislation.
But even as it stands, the “negative Commerce Claise” can provide no basis for judges to obstruct state legislation they don’t like by persuading judges that interests well within state police powers are “mere.” Every legislative act is based on a philosophy that something is wrong. It is not for judges to declare that some legitimate philosophies are “mere.” Nor is it for lobbyists to bypass legislatures on political matters by hoping judges will provide a better forum for their political views.
Suppose California had banned pork outright, or cogarettes, or marijuana. That ban would also be based on the “mere philosophical interest” that the substance was wrong and harmful. But surely the Constitution permits an outright ban. This is a lot less than an outright ban.
The pork producers’ claims they can’t change their businesses to meet the rules are self-serving and patently absurd. Of course they can. They can have 2 kinds of farms if they want. They just don’t want to.
The more doesn't always include the lesser. I think we can all agree that California couldn't ban the sale of pork produced by black farmers.
You seem to have forgotten that this is the Volokh Conspiracy and that plenty of its fans and most prolific commenters are unreconstructed racists.
"First and foremost, that the CA law "impermissibly regulates extraterritorial conduct" outside of California's borders..."
So, sort'a like the state abortion bans that attempt to regulate abortion in other states?
Exactly. And that’s why you need a consistent approach that doesn’t depend on whether you agree or disagree with the state law involved.
As other commenters have pointed out, some states have banned e.g. commerce in fetal tissue even if produced elsewhere. Abortion providers can make the same argument the pork producers did here, these types of laws make their jobs more difficult, and interfere with interstate abortion commerce, over mere philosophy.
In my view, states can either prohibit or promote such things as they see fit, unless and until Congress decides to preempt by its own legislation. But regardless, there has to be a consistent approach. The Commerce clause is a simple grant of power to Congress. It shouldn’t and doesn’t provide a back door for courts to uphold laws they like and strike down laws they don’t.
To those saying this will force the entire market to be CA-compliant, how did that not occur with things like certified-organic products?
If the market can maintain separate supply chains for certified-organic pork and non-organic pork, why can't this work the same way?
IANAL, but this sounds similar to CA's Proposition 65 warning requirements on consumer products sold there (effectively imposing national labeling requirement because who will go to the trouble of using separate labels for non-CA sold products). But maybe I'm missing something here.
Perhaps the difference is in the cost of compliance? It's a good question.
Hmmm. Could City of Philadelphia v. NJ be applicable here? NJ didn't have the right to ban garbage coming in.
I understand. Maybe producers can bifercate their production into intended for sale in California and not intended for sale in California operations. Not sure if that can work. But it’s still incremental cost which means higher prices.
Exactly. There's no issue here. If it is impractical, California voters will learn it soon enough and will repeal it.
If it is practical, pork producers should comply with it.
But it’s still incremental cost which means higher prices.
So do more conventional health and safety regulations.
Too late. By that point producers have already buried a bunch of capital adapting their production to the California law. That money is gone and embedded in future pork prices. Most of whatever price increase happens is permanent.
Which they can’t influence in other states. Here they are effectively regulating out of state manufacturing.
But is this actually a safety or health regulation?
Or is it a moral judgement?
Now do Texas code 61.004
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/AG/htm/AG.61.htm#61.004
Of course they can.
Can CA not prohibit the sale of pork that doesn't meet certain safety standards?
None of that regulates the production process. It just requires that actual properties of the seeds be identified on the labeling.
Like, "20% weed seeds by weight" is 20% weed seeds by weight whether the weeds were growing in the field, or the weed seeds were added afterwards to pad the weight. Has nothing to do with production processes, just what's in the package.
Serious question. How material is that as to increasing cost?
That’s really the issue here. If it didn’t force substantial and expensive changes in the producers’ operations most people would shrug it off.
Please see the Keating-Owen Child Labor Act of 1916, and Hammer v. Dagenhart (1918) where the SCOTUS ruled such a law unconstitutional.
Would the current SCOTUS rule such? Who knows. The SCOTUS did eventually stop overturning child labor laws, but for a while there any law that sought to ban child labor was struck down at the SCOTUS.
True, but California consumes approximately 15% of pork sold in America. That’s a substantial hit but maybe the way to go at the start. See how Californians like having no breakfast meet. There’s time to decide later if you want to change their facility to meet the requirements to sell there.
Why would that be unconstitutional if this one isn’t? It’s the same damn concept.
Agree as to the textbooks and mentioned that last night. Unfortunately, nobody responsible for that down here has called to ask my opinion.
The difference is the production chains that exist between pork and textbooks are not the same, thus the impact of the law is not the same.
If the switch in production costs little (some editing in MS Word before hitting print in the case of textbooks [yes, yes... there is more than that but you get my point]) then the PCC likely wouldn't see this as an issue.
But a local regulation that will knowingly cause costly disruption outside of the state certainly seems like the point of the Commerce Clause.
Perhaps we have lived so long with the CC just being a federal blank check that we forgot what it was actually for... maintaining ease of trade across state lines.
We’re all playing to form here. Lawyers are parsing the legal aspect. I’m an engineer so I’m bothered by the practical impact, which I don’t think is fair.
They’re not overriding anything in my hypothetical. They’re complying with the California law by not selling any pork in California that is out of compliance.
That almost certainly not going to happen, but I can see a separation in the industry where some producers (those with below average current business in California) decide to just cease selling to the state and sell to the other 49 at roughly current prices. The remaining producers would have to decide whether to focus on California - basically rendering themselves uncompetitive in the rest of the country - or to bug out as well.
Plus, if the price difference is big enough a black market will develop where some enterprising folks will smuggle in cheaper pork from Mexico and the states surrounding California.
Soon there’ll be someone declaring a War on Pork.
I’m gonna go with this as a prediction because it’s so much fun to contemplate.
Somehow I find the thought of Black Market Bacon very entertaining.
I’m planning to move out there to be the Al Capone of bacon.
Shit I missed the “not”. Oops.
No Bevis -- Remember how Coors Beer used to be illegal east of the Mississippi? They are well within their rights to reduce their production and simply not sell in California -- and I'd expect a lot of them to do that instead.
This is what almost happened in Massachusetts with eggs -- unlike Cali, it's a small enough market for egg producers not to care and had the law not been changed, there simply would not have been eggs here.
Freshmen year of college we couldn’t get Coors in Texas. One of the guys in my dorm would get a case shipped to him every once in awhile from his brother in Colorado and we’d do the only rational thing. We’d go out on the lawn behind the building and cut holes in the bottom of each can and shoot the whole case.
I didn’t realize that there were legal restraints though, I thought it was simply that Coors was just a regional beer.
It may be bad policy.
It may be unconstitutional.
But don’t conflate an argument for one with an argument for the other,
"That bridge doesn't look sturdy. You engineers are parsing the math with your blah blah numbers, sure, but numbers, shmumbers, who cares? Speaking as an attorney, I don't think it looks sturdy, so shut up about the numbers and build it to my sense of aesthetics."
An "introduced bill from 2012".... Did it pass? Who knows. Likely not.
A law banning the sale of fetal tissue. Not exactly the same.
Now, it would be interesting if California outright banned the sale of pork products. But at least it wouldn't be regulating outside industries via moral issues.
One of the ahem... more interesting movies of the 1970's, Smokey and the Bandit, had as it's MacGuffin the fact that you couldn't ship Coors beer east of Texas.
Back in the 80's during my college days I was at a school that was about a 2 hour drive from Niagara Falls. At the time Molson brewed Coors under contract for the Canadian market. The thing was it was sold in longneck bottles there, which we couldn't get domestically. An enterprising friend would take orders and make regular Canada runs and turn a tidy profit.
Personally you'd have to pay me to drink Coors.
These limits still exist. New Glarus Brewery will not allow their beer to be distributed outside Wisconsin. And that is much much better beer than Coors. Their fruit beers are world class.
Yes. Now, perhaps you should answer the question.
By this logic, though, if Maine wanted to pass an identical law it would be fine because producers could just ignore the Maine market and not hurt their business too much. It doesn't make sense that California can be constrained as to what it can regulate inside its borders relative to other states just because it's a more attractive market.
If anything, the size of the California market makes it a lot more practical for producers to raise some pork for California and keep existing practices for the rest of the world. That bifurcation would be much harder to justify and implement if California were a smaller market.
"See how Californians like having no breakfast meet."
Californians would likely still have breakfast meet (um, I mean, meat). It would just be some really pricey bacon. Perhaps The French Laundry will served it .
Fine with me...Laboratory of the States and all that.
Yeah, I guess one important difference is that religious beliefs are constitutionally protected from government actions motivated by animus. Child labor and small pigs pens, not so much.
A more interesting case would be if CA tried to ban the sale of meat slaughtered by methods associated with particular religions. IIRC some Southern state lost when they tried to ban a Haitian sect from slaughtering chickens.
As a practical matter, there was a national movement with widespread support against child labor and the states were part of a wave, and the courts had more respect for federalism. So the courts were probably less inclined both morally and legally to overrule them.
So far mandating free-range pork is not something most states are considering, and neither right nor left have much belief in federalism when they want to smack down an outlier state.
I find myself, from my layman's perspective, agreeing with your interpretation throughout this extremely interesting discussion.
My pragmatic side asks if a strict labeling requirement wouldn't have achieved the same end?
As in: "This pork product raised in compliance with California Proposition 12" and then let the consumer decide. If the measure is popular, then sales should reflect that. After all we already have warnings on products that are intended for California as in "This product contains a chemical known to the state of California to cause cancer"
You're mixing up your laws and links. This was in reference to the NC law. Not OK.
And there's a difference between a flat out ban on a product, as compared to a regulation that controls/alters interstate commerce.
It’s doesn’t “quite” prohibit that what was proposed. And a new California law could always overrule an old California law....
Not quite.
Seems to me a monopoly is a monopoly. I'd be curious about antitrust.
Trust me, I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's why we are sometimes referred to as a "neo-prohibitionist state". Basically if the State Store system doesn't have it, you can't have it. It's why for normal shopping I'll drive the 35 miles to a Youngstown, OH store, and if we want to stock up on hard to find Scotch or Japanese Whiskey, we bite the bullet and make the 3 hour drive to a place I know in Hagerstown, MD.
That might work economically. I don’t know. I have zero knowledge or experience in that market.
Does the law allow for split facilities? Part in compliance and part not in compliance with proper certification and auditing to demonstrate that only the compliant stuff is coming into California?
And that’ll still leave the smuggling temptation if the price difference is enough.
It’s not the impact on producers that’s the ultimate issue. It’s how that flows through to the innocent consumers, a whole lot of whom are already being chewed up by general inflation. What about them?
Bevis, hmmm…”Let them eat Steak!“ ??
Sure. Principle is called Export Control, most well known through being required to comply with Export Administration Regulations (EAR) and the Commerce Control List (CCL).
The principle is big in production of advanced technology and weapons systems. Made lot of money with those over the decades.
Ooh, nice autocorrect catch. That makes you pretty smart, huh?
Section 2 of the 21st Amendment gives states special solicitude in regulating alcohol, as part of the deal that convinced "dry" states to go along with it.
State entities are exempt from antitrust law. See North Carolina State Board of Dental Examiners v. FTC (2015), which was also egregious.
A "flat out ban" controls/alters interstate commerce.
Indeed, let's suppose that compliance with this law actually drove up the price of pork in a major way, and as a result the pork producers decided it would be better to stop selling in California rather than sacrifice business from the other 49 states. That would be the functional equivalent of a "flat out ban."
Vermont tried to shut down a nuclear power plant and the federal courts ruled against the state. In general states can regulate power plants and power production, but the state's justification in this case was found to be a pretext. The court looked at the motives of lawmakers. They were clearly worried about safety. Nuclear safety is a purely federal subject. Entergy Nuclear Vermont Yankee, LLC v. Shumlin (2nd Cir. 2013). Should California ban pork one might expect a similar argument to be made that the ban is a pretext.
Vermont lost the battle but won the war. The plant shut down the year after the decision.
bevis, lots of policies increase costs. Workplace health and safety policies, for instance. That should not mean a court instead of a legislature gets to decide whether constitutionally legitimate health and safety policies can be enacted and enforced. Except according to laws empowering them to do it, courts ought to resist temptations to set themselves up as economic arbiters.
As much as some people wish it were so, there are not any, "laws," of economics courts ought to enforce on the basis of merely presumed judicial authority to do it. On the contrary, alleged, "laws," derived from theories about God, or theories derived from nature, or theories from social science, ought to be treated as wrongly postulated if they do not prove self-enforcing.
If a mixed-race couple, or a same-sex couple, get hauled into court by a prosecutor who claims to enforce God's law, or even a legislative enactment of God's law, the court ought to tell the prosecutor the nation's secular courts allow him no commission to take on an enforcement burden which God has power to accomplish unassisted. Even a pious court ought to recognize and shun the blasphemy inherent in undertaking enforcement initiatives on behalf of a wayward impulse to correct presumed omissions by an allegedly all-powerful God.
It ought to go likewise for the, "laws," of economics, or for any other non-legal systematization for which proponents demand a reifying legal status. Suspect systematizations include so-called natural law, and theorized pre-existing rights decreed by God.
Secular courts have to stay out of that stuff. When you let people bring God into it, they can make Him say anything they want.
Was opposition to slavery “animus”? Slaveholders crrtainly said it was. Was opposition to child labor “animus?” Factory owners said that was too. Is opposition to abortion “animus”? Ditto.
The idea that certain conduct is wrong is always animus to those who want to do it. But the constitutional outcome shouldn’t depend on whether or not their lobbyists happen to have captured a majority of the Supreme Court.
21st amendment, section 2: “The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or Possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.”
There has been, since Prohibition was repealed, an actual clause of the Constitution authorizing states to regulate interstate commerce in alcoholic beverages. That’s the only reason states can do that, for alcohol, and ONLY alcohol.
Oh, and way to elide the actual point, Queen, which is that morals legislation applies to what you do inside the state that legislated it. Why, Las Vegas was founded on that principle!
There are people on this very forum virulently upset at the immorality, so they claim, of men placing their seed inside other mens' tuchi, and the utter wrongness of putting that beyond the controlling reach of morality laws.
We love democracy. Until we don't.
You don't think labelling is part of the production process?
You've changed the example, rather than just stick with a flat out ban
Did I misunderstand recent jurisprudence, or did the history and tradition approach only apply to identifying unenumerated rights retained by the people?
Not smart, just needlessly snarky. Musta been board. And how come you didn't catch my "will served it ." ??
...and the weather is nice here in the Pacific Northwest today. Which is as relevant to this discussion as your comment.
Well, not according to a Michigan ruling decades ago, where increased sausage purity was ruled a cover story to protect domestic producers from Chicago.
Was their error not tying it to Bambi-itis?
Really? I did not know.
I wonder why.
I would like to try it!
I'm out.
Presumably the Feds could address those things, then state laws evaporate. If it can get into the US legally, tough on any extensions, unless explicitely exempted.
Those laws are national - no dormant commerce clause.
Could California pass a law banning sale of products made using labor of children under 18? It is perfectly legal in many states for 17 year olds to do certain work. Can California try to change that?
What about a law banning sale of products made by US workers paid under USD 15 per hour? Can California seek to establish a national minimum wage and impose that on the rest of the country?
The boys are thirsty in Atlanta and there's beer in Texarkana.
And we'll bring it back no matter what it takes.