The Volokh Conspiracy
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Court Rejects Challenge to California's Disclosure of Certain Gun Owner Records to Researchers
From Judge Larry Alan Burns' decision today in Doe v. Bonta (S.D. Cal.):
Five California registered gun owners have filed suit to prevent Rob Bonta, Attorney General of the State of California, from enforcing a California law that permits the State to disclose their personal identifying information to bona fide research institutions for the ostensible purposes of preventing gun violence, shooting accidents, and suicide….
The gun owners, all of whom are law abiding citizens who passed background checks, raise four claims. First, they argue that AB 173 violates—or at minimum, chills—their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. Second, they maintain that disclosing their personal identifying information to non-government researchers violates privacy protections guaranteed to them by the Fourteenth Amendment. Next, they assert that AB 173 violates their right to due process under the Fourteenth Amendment by retroactively expanding access to their restricted personal information. Their final claim, applicable only to applicants for concealed weapon permits ("CCW") and holders of such permits, is that federal law preempts AB 173 insofar as AB 173 authorizes disclosure of their social security numbers to third parties in derogation of the federal Privacy Act of 1974….
The court rejected the Second Amendment challenge:
Bruen didn't undo all preexisting gun regulations. Licensing requirements, fingerprinting, background checks, and mandatory gun safety training courses exist in many states and operate as prerequisites to exercising the right to possess and carry firearms. The legitimacy of these longstanding and common regulations was recognized in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) and in McDonald v. Chicago (2010)—a point acknowledged by Bruen….
What one gleans from these qualifications is that there is a difference between prohibiting a right and regulating the right; so long as the regulation of the right to keep and bear arms doesn't amount to a prohibition of the right, the regulation is permissible. Read together, Heller, McDonald, and Bruen establish that "the Second Amendment is neither a regulatory straightjacket nor a regulatory blank check." Rather, the cases collectively confirm that the Second Amendment permits laws and regulations that precondition the right to keep and bear arms on the obligation to comply with such ministerial tasks as providing personal identifying information and submitting to a background check—provided that the overall regulatory regime is neither overly discretionary nor overly burdensome. Laws requiring gun owners to comply with such ministerial tasks are presumptively valid and don't violate the plain text of the Second Amendment….
While Plaintiffs acknowledge the legitimacy of these regulatory prerequisites to gun ownership and possession, and expressly disclaim any purpose "to contest the statutory and regulatory scheme governing the collection of personal information in connection with firearms and ammunition transactions," they maintain that disclosure of such information to third party researchers denies ordinary citizens the right to keep and bear arms. Central to Plaintiffs' Second Amendment claims is the premise that sharing their personal information with outside gun research organizations jeopardizes their personal privacy and physical security. Plaintiffs hypothesize that if their identities are publicly revealed, they will be harassed, subjected to reprisals, and exposed to heightened risks of their homes being burglarized or becoming victims of violence. Notwithstanding that DOJ protocols and the California Penal Code forbid any approved research organization from publicly disseminating the personal information of gun owners, Plaintiffs argue that their information may still be hacked. They also surmise that renegade researchers—hostile to their Second Amendment rights—could surreptitiously release their information to the public. Either possibility, according to Plaintiffs, presents a threat of infringement to their Second Amendment rights.
The trouble with both arguments is that they are entirely speculative and predictive of harm that is completely attenuated from the plain text and core protections of the Second Amendment. Starting with the possibility of hacking, to date, there has been no claim—not to mention any evidence—that personal information supplied by the DOJ to either the UC Davis or Stanford research organizations has been hacked. And the probability of hacking, though it can never be completely foreclosed, has been greatly reduced by the requirement that all bona fide research organizations follow strict data security protection protocols set by the FBI and DOJ.
Even without such protocols in place, the Court is dubious that the threat of hacking alone is sufficient to state a Second Amendment infringement claim. The only personal information to which the research organizations have access is information previously collected by the DOJ. No doubt recognizing the State's incontrovertible right to collect personal information from gun owners, Plaintiffs haven't argued—nor could they—that the mere collection of such information violates their Second Amendment rights by improperly subjecting them to the threat of hacking. Nor have they presented evidence that there is any greater threat that data will be hacked from the research organizations than from the DOJ itself. Indeed, the only known unauthorized disclosure of gun owner data was the June 27 mishap for which the DOJ was entirely at fault.
Plaintiffs' other fear—that dissident researchers might intentionally breach DOJ protocols by publicly leaking their personal information—is equally unsubstantiated. Again, to state the obvious, the possibility of a recusant, ideologically motivated employee gaining access to Plaintiffs' personal information isn't a risk that is peculiar to the UC Davis and Stanford gun research organizations. No doubt there are state employees, perhaps even some within the DOJ, with ideological axes to grind. But the mere possibility of misbehavior by a rogue activist isn't sufficient to prove that Plaintiffs will be deterred from exercising their Second Amendment rights. This tenuous possibility existed when Plaintiffs first supplied their personal information to the State so they could lawfully acquire firearms, purchase ammunition, or obtain a CCW permit. Unfortunately, rogue actors are a problem every society must grapple with in this technological age.
Additionally, the speculative possibility of hacking or insider malfeasance existed prior to the adoption of AB 173 and didn't prevent Plaintiffs from acquiring firearms and ammunition or obtaining or renewing CCW permits. Before AB 173's adoption, all five Plaintiffs in this case were registered California gun owners and one was granted a CCW permit. The limited disclosure of private information for research purposes permitted by AB 173 doesn't expose Plaintiffs to any novel risks or impose new burdens on them. Nor do these disclosures amount to an "abusive" practice that prevents Plaintiffs from acquiring additional firearms or ammunition or applying for or renewing a CCW permit in the future.
Plaintiffs' alternative argument is that even if AB 173 doesn't directly violate the Second Amendment, disclosure of their personal information to the research organizations chills their exercise of the right. A "chilling effect" on the exercise of a constitutional right occurs when a person seeking to engage in constitutionally protected activity is deterred from doing so by government regulations not specifically prohibiting the protected activity. The test is an objective one that asks whether a person of ordinary firmness would be deterred from exercising the protected right….
But considering the categorical prohibition on publicly disseminating any personal identifying information that the DOJ has imposed on the research organizations, the enhanced risks Plaintiffs fear are no more likely than the risks posed by many other California laws that compel citizens to furnish publicly available personal information. These include property title and land ownership registries, electoral rolls, and court documents. Applications for CCW permits and records of issuance of such permits are likewise considered public documents open to inspection in California unless the public interest clearly weighs against their disclosure. The pervasiveness of such publicly available personal information weighs strongly against the objective reasonableness of Plaintiffs' "chilling effect" claim.
For these reasons, the Plaintiffs' Second Amendment facial challenge to AB 173 fails. Permitting gun owners' information to be shared under strict privacy protection protocols for legitimate research purposes is merely a limited extension of the "presumptively lawful regulatory measures" that permit states to collect information from gun and ammunition purchasers and CCW permit applicants in the first place. Ancillary regulations like these don't restrict conduct covered by the plain text of the Second Amendment and are permissible….
For the court's similar analysis as to the other constitutional challenges, and its rejection of the Privacy Act of 1974 challenge, see the full opinion. Congratulations to Nelson Richards of the California Attorney General's office, who represents the defendant.
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>But considering the categorical prohibition on publicly disseminating any personal identifying information that the DOJ has imposed on the research organizations, the enhanced risks Plaintiffs fear are no more likely than the risks posed by many other California laws that compel citizens to furnish publicly available personal information. These include property title and land ownership registries, electoral rolls, and court documents.
This is absurd. The risks are “more likely” for information that people are politically motivated to release than for information that people are not. People hardly ever get harassed for being on an electoral roll.
And the “categorical prohibition” should be irrelevant. If the thing prohibited can be detected, the perpetrator can be detected, and you’re able to prove damages and sue the responsible party without any issues of standing, *then* the prohibition might be relevant. Otherwise, the court’s decision allows a shell game where the risk of leaks doesn’t count because leaks are “prohibited”, but in practice, leaks result in no punishment.
The thing is, you don't generally get to hypothesize a wild conspiracy theory about nefarious government agents and then prevent the government from implementing policy based on that conspiracy theory.
This is correctly decided. Really obviously correctly decided.
But the thing is, as I've repeatedly pointed out, California has a track record of violating privacy with disclosures. A really BAD track record. They leak information like this on a regular basis. Often enough information of politically disfavored groups that it's reasonably suspected to be at best depraved indifference towards these groups' privacy, if not deliberate.
And here they are, proposing to give private information, including absolutely everything necessary to dox or commit identity theft, to private parties. Who do not plausibly need that level of detail for the proposed purpose.
That this information will leak is only speculative in the most pedantic sense, it is all but certain to leak.
It doesn't matter for several reasons. First, the LAPD had a track record of chokeholds, but the plaintiffs still lost City of Los Angeles v. Lyons. A lot of facial challenges to the No Fly List were dismissed because people couldn't prove they were on it. You have to show that they are either doing it to you or are inevitably going to do it to you.
Second, you have to show harm. Not just leaking of information. Information sometimes gets leaked. For instance, you can't challenge the legality of the income tax because occasionally, information from someone's tax return leaks. If plaintiff's theory were accepted it would mean the government has no power to collect information at all.
BTW, as a policy matter, I'd be all for some strict limits on dissemination of information about gun owners and some legal remedies when those limits are breached. Indeed, I think such a statute would absolutely be a prerequisite to any attempt at licensing or registration schemes. But you need the legislature to pass that specific statute- you can't find that in the general protections of the Privacy Act or the Second Amendment.
What are the legitimate reasons for the government to collect your personal information? When should that information be made available to third parties?
There's no constitutional provision prohibiting data collection. So I assume even hypothetical reasons are sufficient under Williamson v. Lee Optical.
Actually, Dilan missed the main reason that Brett's arguments make no sense: the plaintiffs weren't challenging the government's collection of the data. So Brett's conspiracy theory that the state of California deliberately leaks data for nefarious purposes is irrelevant. Supplying the information to researchers makes it no more likely that the state of California will publicly leak the data.
Supplying the information to researchers IS a leak, itself! It's just meant to put the information in more places, so that when it gets out more widely nobody can prove where it leaked from.
Come on, give me one good reason why the researchers are being given things like birth dates and social security numbers. Why the information isn't being anonymized at all.
A good reason why they need SS numbers, mind you.
“Five California registered gun owners have filed suit to prevent Rob Bonta, Attorney General of the State of California, from enforcing a California law that permits the State to disclose their personal identifying information to bona fide research institutions for the ostensible purposes of preventing gun violence, shooting accidents, and suicide….”
It’s not just any researchers. “Bona Fide” here means anti gun advocates. Note that the government gets to decide who is “bona fide” and who is not.
Because the government and its helpers need to punish gun owners, and deter others from becoming gun owners. Public safety demands it, good governance demands it. The public clamors for more gentle policing, but how can that be accomplished when police don't know how many random strangers they encounter have guns?
No, it's a disclosure.
Why do you say things like this? Is it actual mental illness? No, it's not meant to do that, and (according to the court) that has never happened. The leaks that happened were all from the government.
Well, birth dates are demographic information. As for social security numbers, the statute doesn't even mention them, and the state says that social security numbers aren't being disclosed. There was some dispute on that point, but to the extent that they are, it's only to the extent that the CCW applications list SSNs and the state is providing copies of the CCW applications to researchers. The state is not giving the researchers a database of SSNs.
I say things like that because I've been politically active and fighting the gun control movement since the 70's, and we 2nd amendment defenders don't feel any obligation to not learn from experience, no matter how much you'd prefer it.
" There was some dispute on that point, but to the extent that they are, it’s only to the extent that the CCW applications list SSNs and the state is providing copies of the CCW applications to researchers. The state is not giving the researchers a database of SSNs"
I swear, that has to be the stupidest rationalization for why something isn't really true that I've ever seen posted here, and that's saying something.
I'm going to say something that righties often say to the Left- you have to separate what you think might be good policy from what the law and constitution require.
As I said above, I'm totally open to the notion that there should be strict privacy protections for gun owners. Indeed, there's even a couple of arguments for this that gun control advocates should appreciate- that we don't really want to let potential gun thieves know where the guns are so they can steal them, and people will not comply with licensing and registration systems if they think their private information will be mishandled.
So you have real policy arguments here.
But those arguments are not the law. The law is that just like with many other things, the government can collect data here and release it for various purposes. And you can't go into court and stop that with an argument that your data might get misused or might get compromised. If someone is able to establish that his or her data was actually misused or compromised, that plaintiff might be in a different situation. But hypothetical injuries don't get you into court.
Dilan - I think Brett is referring to this: "and the state says that social security numbers aren’t being disclosed. There was some dispute on that point, but to the extent that they are, it’s only to the extent that the CCW applications list SSNs and the state is providing copies of the CCW applications to researchers. The state is not giving the researchers a database of SSNs."
Saying 'we aren't disclosing SSN's, we're only providing scans of documents that have SSN's' seems like a non-distinction to me. If I doxx you by posting a PDF that has your real address, you've been doxxed, even with the address only in the PDF.
The point of my comment was not to say that the information wasn't out there (although only for a subset — CCW permit applicants). The point of my comment was to respond to Brett's (paraphrased) "Why would the researchers need SSNs? They don't, so this shows that the government must have a nefarious purpose in turning them over."
Apparently the researchers neither asked for SSNs nor did the government just compile a database of them and systematically hand the data over. So Brett's conspiracy theorizing is once again based on absolutely nothing. Rather, to the extent the researchers got SSNs, it was not intentional at all.
And I'm going to say this: We're discussing a constitutional right here, and actions that might be OK in regards to any random activity stop being OK when they have the potential to chill the exercise of constitutional rights.
I mean, look at NAACP v. Alabama. It doesn't technically violate freedom of association for the government to know who the membership is. But in a case where the state was hostile to the NAACP, the Supreme court non the less ruled that it was a violation of the NAACP's freedom of association to require them to divulge that information to the state.
Can you genuinely deny that California is hostile to gun owners?
You're way into penumbras and emanations here, and I should just appreciate the irony of that.
But beyond my snark (which is completely justified- I don't see how Griswold and Roe are any more of a stretch than the argument you are making here), I can say this- even penumbras and emanations require some actual or imminent injury to the plaintiff, requirements that are imposed by Article III of the very Constitution you claim to worship but repeatedly ignore. You can't sue to invalidate an abortion statute- even when Roe was good law- and just allege "well I might have sex someday and get pregnant and then I will need an abortion".
If a data release actually happens and actually injures someone's ability to keep and bear arms, then by all means, assert the claim. There's still MASSIVE problems with it, but at least that gets you into court. But you can't say "because the Second Amendment exists, anything that a gun owner is irrationally paranoid about must be unconstitutional". As you like to say to us, get the necessary congressional and state supermajorities and write that rule into the Constitution. It's not in the Second Amendment no matter how hard you squint.
You can't even figure out that when Donald Trump told people to fight to stop the election from being stolen that he was telling people to fight to stop the election from being stolen, and yet you think that because of some unspecified thing from 50 years ago that the government is turning over data to researchers in the hopes that it will be leaked.
I get harrassed just for being on the electoral rolls every two years in the form of unsolicited SMS messages and calls on a phone number that's been registered with the FTC DNC list for decades, and which I've confirmed with multiple levels of government isn't (and never has been) listed in the "public record" database which the various campaign volunteers have been told the number was obtained from; the DSA/Bernie Sanders campaigns are particularly aggressive with this tactic but I do occasionally get contacted by groups who aren't obtaining their target lists from the CA Dem party. I suspect that one or more of my far-left leaning friends allows that Party to scrape their contacts lists on their personal directories/phones but will probably never be able to prove it.
Personally, I find the Privacy act argument to be stronger than the 2A case, and the hacking argument is a bit specious since the CA SecState office is likely to be less well secured against online mayhem than Stanford, and on par with a State run University so that risk isn't really increased from the data being shared.
I might also be less worried about most sensitive personal information in this instance because as a past/current holder of a DoD Security clearance, a lot more of my private info than just my SSN was compromised years ago when the Federal OPM database containing SF-86 form archives was hacked. To quote Janis Joplin, freedom's another word for "nothing left to lose".
As for the researchers themselves, I trust the primaries to handle data in a professional manner, but do worry about the potential presence of activist grad students working in those studies leaking home addresses and corresponding numbers/types of firearms registered as present in those residences.
“The trouble with both arguments is that they are entirely speculative”
Did the plaintiffs relate the California government’s history of ‘accidental’ data breaches targeting disfavored groups? The arguments are not particularly speculative where California is concerned.
For instance, just last year.
Another similar case in 2017.
In fact, in the Americans for Prosperity Foundation case, a district court made a point of referencing California’s track record of frequent and politically convenient private data leaks on politically disfavored groups, in striking a charitable donor disclosure law.
California’s record of such leaks is so extensive that multiple courts have acknowledged it and taken it into account. California assurances of privacy are basically worthless.
Per my annual PII training within the federal govt, there is no waiting for speculative harm. Inappropriate disclosure is punishable all by itself.
What the court here treated as speculative was the disclosure itself.
Not the disclosure to the researchers, which the court presumed to be justified by the state government's rationale. The potential disclosure by the researchers.
States have compelling government interests in the safety of their citizens. On the one hand, those interests are more than sufficient to pass strict scrutiny for some kinds of potential state gun control regulations. On the other hand, those same interests could more than justify state laws which encourage gun prevalence in the interests of enhanced public safety. What states lack is any reliable information to choose among those alternatives, and thus tailor gun policies to effectively promote public safety.
If a state acts without reliable information in support of any alternative—whether gun controls, or encouragement of gun prevalence, or some other polices tailored to encourage some mix of those—the state risks damaging its compelling interest instead of protecting it. Thus, regardless of what the facts might show if they were known, the states are powerless not to act. Any choice of action or inaction will deliver some presently unpredictable effect, either in support of a compelling interest in safety, or to its detriment.
Moreover, because states are not alike in their characteristics, in their populations, or in the details of gun prevalence and practices from state-to-state, policies optimally to promote safety in one state cannot be counted on to match policies to do likewise in another. What may pass as a narrowly tailored policy in one state could fail that requirement in another state where different circumstances prevail. Only systematized information gathering, particularized for each state, can deliver that kind of information, and thus serve that compelling state interest.
It ought to be intolerable for a court to insist the law choose willy-nilly among policy alternatives with power to deliver safety to citizens, or to kill and maim them gratuitously, because of ignorance about which effects specific policies actually will deliver in specific states. The only reasoning which could justify such a decision would be to deny states actually do have a compelling interest in the safety of their citizens. Reasonable people will not insist on any such absurdity.
Governments are not reasonable in how they apply research. For example, the Congressional justification for Obamacare was the large fraction of bankruptcies that were reported as "medical bankruptcies" in one study. However, that number was only achieved by including a bunch of factors like "person worked less to care for a sick family member" and "disability rendered person unable or less able to work" that Obamacare does not address -- and Congress even had the benefit of including one of the study's lead authors at the time! And yet the incoherency of the justification doesn't matter in court or elsewhere. It's all about finding a research narrative that excuses the desired policy outcomes. California wants to do the same thing here.
"It ought to be intolerable for a court to insist the law choose willy-nilly among policy alternatives with power to deliver safety to citizens, or to kill and maim them gratuitously,"
A reminder: This is about a California program sharing private data with private third parties. It isn't about the safety of the citizens, except on the part of the plaintiffs. It's about the convenience to researchers.
And the information isn't redacted or anonymized. What the hell do the researchers need SS numbers for, for instance?
Given California's history of data leaks specifically targeting gun owners, the assurances of privacy ring hollow. The ostensible purpose may be to facilitate useful research, the real purpose probably IS just to leak the data to people hostile to the folks the data is about.
As usual, Lathrop made a meandering and abstract yet disconnected argument that is tangentially related to the point at hand. In short, government has some interest in having evidence to inform its policy choices. Therefore, something.
The fact that it took him so many words to avoid directly naming a something related to this case is awfully suggestive.
This is — as usual — a lengthy pontification from Lathrop having nothing to do with the topic.
Moreover, as a general description of gun regulation, it once again relies on Lathrop ignoring the existence of the Second Amendment. As long as the RKBA is recognized as an individual right, it isn't simply a question of "policy alternatives" for the states to choose from. And a vague assertion that states have a compelling interest in public safety would swallow the Second Amendment entirely.
Nieporent — Don't be an ass. Accurate information about gun prevalence could deliver proof to show private gun carriers bolster public safety. That could become the keystone of 2A support. It could go far to quash calls for gun control.
But it can't happen if no one knows whether or not it is true. To be forthright, I do not expect any such result. I would be surprised if it were shown to be broadly true.
However, I expect research to turn up well-defined narrower circumstances where private gun carrying does enhance public safety. That too would have legal implications in support of the 2A, at least as applied to those circumstances.
A great deal of vociferous advocacy about guns, pro and con, is predicated either explicitly or tacitly on claims about public safety. And no one knows the first thing about who is right. Given the nation's unique commitment to gun liberty, given its extraordinary gun prevalence, and given its imposing history of suffering from gun deaths and injuries, it is insane not to try to discover on what factual basis all that rests. The 2A imposes no barrier to finding out.
And yet, given that there is an absolutely fanatical minority who are determined to erase that liberty, it's insane to give them any information that would facilitate that.
If an anti-gun administration comes into office, with support in Congress, they've got 2-4 years to do whatever they want, before any retaliation at the polls is possible. If they don't know who owns how many guns, no matter how determined they are to confiscate them, they can't do it. Not without measures that would persuade middle of the roaders that they were mad, like door to door searches.
But if they do know who owns what guns, they can engage in all manner of targeted actions against gun owners, and do horrific damage before any election intervenes.
That is why gun registration is a line in the sand for 2nd amendment activists, and a high priority for gun control activists. It's almost the whole game.
To quote myself from above:
The only reasoning which could justify such a decision would be to deny states actually do have a compelling interest in the safety of their citizens. Reasonable people will not insist on any such absurdity.
And to quote myself: “And a vague assertion that states have a compelling interest in public safety would swallow the Second Amendment entirely.”
The people who ratified the constitution already made the decision that there's a RKBA. Thus, the government is not free to declare that the RKBA is bad for public safety and it can therefore be abrogated.
But it imposes many barriers to acting on those findings.
But not to all actions which might be taken on the basis of those findings. Some could pass strict scrutiny. Until the facts are known, it would be impossible to say in principle which those might be.
A research finding which led to a policy to encourage greater gun prevalence on behalf of a newly-proven public safety interest ought to sail right through. Only simpletons would say that burdens the 2A.
But no one can say what actions might be contemplated, or how to tailor them narrowly, before the facts are known. I am beginning to think this might be another instance where your ability to understand the meaning of the law suffers because you do not understand the activities the law purports to govern.
What if research findings showed that one set of gun types delivered increased public danger in specific commonplace instances—including increased danger for the law-abiding person with the gun? If a different set of gun types delivered increased public safety in those same instances, how could you justify on the basis of a right to self-defense the choice of a pro-gun policy which decreased personal self-defense success for law-abiding gun carriers, instead of the choice of an alternative pro-gun policy which increased their personal self-defense success? Before telling me it's their choice to make, please show how to rule out adverse safety implications for everyone else. Or explain on what principle you would discount those interests to zero, while encouraging policy to make gun use for self-defense more dangerous for law-abiding people with guns.
Indeed, suppose research could show that in some commonplace situations the very safest personal gun policy would be to have no gun at all. If a choice of policy to encourage gun prevalence led to increased personal danger for the law-abiding person with the gun, do you insist that it would infringe the 2A simply to find that out and tell people about it, so they could make up their own minds on the basis of well-understood facts? Why would it infringe the 2A to research what various gun policies actually do, and tell people about them?
It. Doesn't. Matter.
You're still trying to reduce a constitutional issue to a policy argument.
But it imposes many barriers to acting on those findings.
The court decision is correct (the 2A claim is ridiculous), but I think the law can be tightened up.
I don't see why researchers need specific Personally Identified Information (PII), like name, address, SSN, DOB.
General PII should be OK to release like race, location (i.e., town, city), sex, age - but nothing that could identify a specific individual.
The law even says the researchers' reports CANNOT release PII, "[T]he California Penal Code forbid any approved research organization from publicly disseminating the personal information of gun owners. . .," so why release it to them?
Again, California has a considerable history of leaking personal information of gun owners, or donors to causes the state disapproves of. "Accidentally", of course. Other courts have taken note of this, and treated California assurances of privacy appropriately.
Why release it to them? So they can abuse it. No other reason.
There may be a presumption of good faith, but it's a rebuttable presumption, and in California's case, it has been rebutted by their track record.
Of course all of this begs the question as to how a SSN, which was created to identify people eligible for retirement benefits (and the card you receive with your number states "not to be used for identification") became so ubiquitous and "required" for virtually any interaction between an individual and any entity public and private.
The card I got many decades ago used to say that. The replacement card I got in 2008 no longer does.
Why release it to them? So they can abuse it. No other reason
Brett, they give the reason. It's not abuse. Your telepathy won't stand up in court.
Neither will your handwaiving about a history of leaks. Establishing bad faith by the state is quite difficult. I don't know what those other courts actually said, but if as you describe it that seems pretty sketchy.
Do you mean like this?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/01/06/social-security-numbers-jan-6-committee-documents/
No, that's utterly off topic.
Only in the sense that it was the Feds rather than the state. Of course the right to privacy only exists to allow for abortions.
Sarcastro, when it comes to you, the presumption of good faith on the part of left-wing politicians isn't a presumption, it's a fixed, unchallengeable axiom.
California so frequently leaks personal information that more than one court has treated disclosing information to the state as tantamount to simply publishing it.
Of course you think my point about how the law operates is actually just my personal position.
You need evidence to get rid of a presumption. And it's not that easy to prove a pattern of bad faith. You certainly haven't done so.
AMERICANS FOR PROSPERITY
FOUNDATION v XAVIER BECERRA
"Although the state is required to keep donor names
private, the district court found that the state’s promise of
confidentiality was illusory; the state’s database was
vulnerable to hacking and scores of donor names were
repeatedly released to the public, even up to the week before
trial. "
Like I said, the court found that giving information to the state was tantamount to simply publishing it, their record of leaking 'private' data was so extensive and long standing.
Here, of course, the leak is actually contemplated: The state proposes to GIVE the private data to private parties, with an unenforceable assurance that they won't do anything wrong with it.
Private parties approved by the government as being “bona fide” researchers.
Which really just means that the government wanted to leak to them. Nothing more.
They're still private parties being given insanely too much individualized data about private citizens the state government is politically hostile to.
As dwshelf asks below, if my state of SC decided 'research' into abortions was necessary, could they get away with handing off this level of detail about women who get abortions to the Family Research Council?
No, not remotely. California is getting away with this, thus far, because the 2nd amendment is widely disfavored by the judiciary.
"Brett, they give the reason."
Sorry, I missed that! I'm having trouble grokking the reason that, say, an unredacted SSN, address, or birthdate is required for research, and didn't see an explanation in a skim of the decision.
Can you elaborate about why, say, an age in years or zipcode isn't enough precision for research purposes? My sense is that the medical and social science folks have figured out how to work with partially anonymized data - what's different about gun research?
Or maybe I'm out to lunch, and full names/addrs/etc of people who apply for welfare are routinely available to social science researchers?
Absaroka — If a state needs to research whether increased gun prevalence levels enhance public safety or diminish it, fairly granular levels of information about personal gun ownership may prove necessary. An assumption could be challenged that 1,000 guns distributed one-per-person would affect public safety in the same way that 1,000 guns distributed among 100 persons would affect it. Researchers would want reliable distribution data before accepting that. If 1,000 guns were held by only 1 person, that could imply possibility of a notably different range of public safety burdens than either of the former cases.
I cannot guess whether partially anonymized data techniques would enable the kind of down-to-the-individual insight that public gun-safety analysis might require. Perhaps they would. At the very least, it seems you need to know the name, age, sex, and address for everyone living in a residence where someone owns a gun, how many of them own what kinds of guns, and how many guns of what kinds for each person. That is a lot to ask.
It seems to me that as a practical matter, it would take a system amounting to universal gun registration to provide an adequate data foundation for that kind of research. Of course even with gun registration many would object that research results had been undermined by non-cooperation and deceptions practiced by gun owners.
If it is possible to require gun registration, enforce it, and anonymize the information for research purposes, then maybe that is what should happen. Also, that kind of anonymity seems indispensable politically before any such gun registration system could possibly be enacted. I doubt many think such a thing could be set up now.
Note, however, that useful safety-related data could be available from more-narrowly focused, if yet-more-intrusive investigations, by limiting the scope to mandatory collection of maximal data regarding any incident where gun use or gun prevalence came to the attention of law enforcement. If each such incident triggered a comprehensive, standardized investigation of that person’s gun ownership history and status, that would spare the vast majority of gun owners from privacy threats. It would have the further advantage of enriching the database, in terms of incidents which were demonstrably related to public safety-related occurrences, whether the occurrences investigated implied public safety burdens, public safety enhancements, or public safety irrelevancies—such as an incident where a traffic stop encountered a licensed concealed carrier, whose gun played no part in the incident. Research based on such standardized investigations by law enforcement could probably be anonymized with fewer worries from researchers and interested parties about slip-shod or merely variable data collection.
All those kinds of data could greatly improve on today’s inadequate level of insight into gun policy issues. If such a law-enforcement data collection protocol could be standardized nationwide—presumably under federal direction—the resulting data would in time enable cross-checks to weigh complex questions, such as whether gun controls have like effects on public safety in urban areas and rural areas, or whether different regulatory regimes might better suit each type of place.
"I cannot guess whether partially anonymized data techniques would enable the kind of down-to-the-individual"
We're talking about knowing whether the info supplied is 'CCW holder #73635 is a 75 year old woman residing in zip code 90712-3421' vs. supplying 'The CCW holder is Gladys MacGruder, DOB 11Feb1952, SSN 241-65-7823, residing at 123 Maple Drive, Sunnywood'.
I find your 'meandering and abstract yet disconnected' ramble to be a unconvincing rationale for the latter enabling research that could not be accomplished with the former.
Absaroka — I understood that the first time.
If I am a researcher bent on improving public safety by public policy, I will need to understand MacGruder's criminal history. I need to know if she lives with other gun owners, and whether they too have permits, or not. I need to know what kinds of guns all of them have, and whether any of the others have criminal records. I will leave it at that, but the list could go on and on.
The list of potential policies affecting gun prevalence is what must define the scope of needed information. Axes on that list could include personal characteristics, neighborhood characteristics, household associations, criminal histories of all involved, population density, gun types, gun numbers, existing gun laws and policies at the places where people live, associations with law enforcement, and a great many other categories. All to be considered as data, analyzed in countless permutations and combinations. I doubt you can do that without knowing who specifically you are talking about. If you can, then have at it.
"I will need to understand MacGruder’s criminal history. I need to know if she lives with other gun owners, and whether they too have permits, or not. I need to know what kinds of guns all of them have, and whether any of the others have criminal records."
Then you should ask for suitably anonymized household data.
Just imagine the analogue: "As a social scientist interested in welfare fraud, I need the name, address, date of birth, inventory of personal property, criminal history, and income information on everyone who ever applied for public assistance, and also the same information for everyone in their households". And not anonymized - I need the actual names and dates of birth, no Gxxxx Mxxxx, XXJun42 and a hash of the address - I need the raw data, in the clear. I'm sure California will be happy to supply that on request, strictly in the name of science, of course.
Absaroka — Your comments show a pattern. When you run out of on-point commentary, you go for a subject change and call it an analogy. Why not return to the subject of gun policy research?
Since the state is not permitted to do anything to reduce gun prevalence levels, why would it "need" to research that?
Nieporent — States around the nation are taking actions to increase gun prevalence, apparently without knowing what consequences may follow. That suggests to me a need for research before acting. What does it suggest to you?
Nieporent, I doubt you care about this issue at all, except on the basis of libertarian ideology.
Yes, but what are the penalties for researchers that leak PII?
Maybe if the law also specified statutory damages of $1,000,000 per leak, then the situation might be different...
Once the state has given the information to the 'researchers', the state itself can leak the info anonymously, and claim publicly that it must have been the researchers. And visa versa.
Once two parties have the information, identifying which leaked becomes practically impossible if they take any care in doing it.
“[T]he California Penal Code forbid any approved research organization from publicly disseminating the personal information of gun owners. . .,” so why release it to them?
One general possibility: Researchers who know the identities of folks who live in the same household, and who understand the gun prevalence within the household, can correlate that information with other publicly available information, such as domestic violence arrests. That would permit assay of contributions made by guns within households. They could assess whether guns in particular household configurations create safety, or create danger. More specifically, they could quantify the contribution household gun prevalence made to protecting the household from criminal invasions, or on the contrary, the contribution the presence of guns made to inducing burglaries or violent crimes. They could possibly identify and measure contributions of household guns to school shootings by minors. They could look for household factors which suggested introducing a gun might increase suicide risks.
Just review in your head a list of all the hypothetical ways gun presence in the home gets justified as needed self-defense. Each such justification will turn out to be a subject for confirmation or refutation using specific case information. If there is some way to do that as well with anonymized data, that would obviously be better. What is not better is the commonplace insistence that the state should know nothing about guns, because if it did the knowledge could be used to justify safer policies which gun advocates disapprove.
If (when?) the State of California passes a law confiscating privately-held firearms, or outlaws the Republican Party, or does some other awful thing, will you still be congratulating its lawyers if they successfully defeat legal challenges to such actions?
Dude. He congratulates lawyers for having succeeded. That's what lawyers do as a profession. Volokh is a law professor, who trains lawyers, not for one side vs the other, but to succeed as professionals.
so long as the regulation of the right to keep and bear arms doesn't amount to a prohibition of the right, the regulation is permissible.
Which is not what the words say. The 2nd Amendment doesn't forbid the "prohibition" of the right to bear arms, it forbids the "infringement" of that right. No infringement doesn't mean anything like no prohibition, it means don't even step on the fringes of this right.
As a matter of text, the only justification for messing with "the right to bear arms" is if the regulator can argue that the particular matter regulated doesn't fall within "the right" at all - ie the scope of the right to bear arms as originally understood at 2A adoption.
As a matter of text, the only justification for messing with “the right to bear arms” is if the regulator can argue that the particular matter regulated doesn’t fall within “the right” at all – ie the scope of the right to bear arms as originally understood at 2A adoption.
As a matter of text, it says "shall not be infringed".
And yet, we accept all manner of infringement as being necessary. And we come to some kind of ideologically determined line of scrimmage where infringement is necessary vs where it is unconstitutional.
As a practical matter, releasing the names of gun buyers has a meaningful effect on the right to buy a gun, in the same way that releasing the name of abortion patients has a meaningful effect on the right to abortion.
"And yet, we accept all manner of infringement as being necessary."
Again I say, "What do you mean 'we', white man?"
In fact, gun owners have not remotely accepted all manner of infringements as being necessary. We've simply lacked sufficient political clout to get them removed, and the Court didn't particularly care if this right was violated until recently.
In fact, gun owners have not remotely accepted all manner of infringements as being necessary.
I doubt that even if the vote were constrained to people who actually own a real gun, that bans against violent felons owning guns, and bans against ownership of anti-aircraft weapons would be voted down.
Yeah, and if that's what states like California and New Jersey were up to, you might have a point.
Lee Moore — Even pretend originalists cannot cite evidence to show anything but a militia right within that original understanding you mention. Everything else you think is covered came to you via penumbras and emanations, whether correctly imputed or not. That means 2A absolutism, asserted with an eye to shutting down discussion, cannot persuade anyone who does not already share your position. And the others will insist on keeping the discussion going.
Even pretend originalists cannot cite evidence to show anything but a militia right within that original understanding you mention.
I disagree, but ultimately that militia clause just doesn't matter, at all. Ideology rules, and the line will be set where compromises even out. The line will move over time, as political tides shift.
Is there some reason your comment applies only to the militia clause, as opposed to the 2A as a whole, or for that matter, to rights generally?
Is there some reason your comment applies only to the militia clause, as opposed to the 2A as a whole, or for that matter, to rights generally?
No, although some battles are more active than others.
I tend to agree with you.
Is there the slightest doubt that this judge would have protected abortion patients from analogous disclosure?
Ideology rules again.
Every accusation is a confession.
This judge was appointed by George Bush. Was Bush known for being friendly to Roe?
George Bush was the number one factor in the emergence of Donald Trump. Note that Jeb Bush got less than 1% of Republican votes in the primaries he entered. R's did not want another GW Bush.
Not sure what this judge had to do with the rejection of GW Bush, but I’m thinking he could have been part of the problem.
I mean, that's wrong, but I'm not sure what it has to do with the price of tea in China anyway.
Being appointed by GW Bush is not evidence of conservative partisanship.
Or even lack of liberal partisanship.
Roe (a penumbra of an emanation) was a shaky basis on which to claim a federal constitutional right to abortion.
When you ban something that people feel benefits them and feel their use does not harm others, banning that something (guns, alcohol, marihuana, abortion, erotica, horror comic books) creates a black market, likely to pander to abusers but supported by previously law abiding citizens.
It does the dignity of the law no good to pass counter productive judicial decisions or legislative prohibitions.
Not so long ago, Memphis Commercial Appeal MCA published the entire Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit THCP database complete with name, street address, city, zipcode as a public service. One of their readers commented to thank the paper for warning her who she should shun in her neighborhood.
The Tennessee Firearms Association and others managed to get street address removed from the released dataset and purged from the Memphis Commercial Appeal website. Eventually the dataset became law enforcement or court need to know only.
While it was up at MCA I undertook a check of the names of persons reported in the local newspaper in criminal or questionable public use of handguns. Not a one of them showed up in the list. Then the paper for a while included THCP status in crime reports. Always the bad guy was not a carry permit holder.
Then came an incident involving a wife getting a divorce from an abusive husband. He went to her place of employment and shot her dead. He went to the front and was threatening her boss and coworkers who had supported her. An armed customer shot and wounded him and held him at gun point for arrest by responding officers. The armed customer was a THCP holder legally armed. The murderer was not a THCP holder: he carried illegally. After that I have not noticed reports on permit status in the paper.
If you are researching gun crime in the name of public safety, a list of legal carriers is of little use. But for people who hate guns, hate gun owners, and especially hate the idea of armed self-defense, a permit holder list is a list of people they feel need to be canceled and probably won't stay secret, but be leaked in the name of their good cause.