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"The Houston Restaurant Self-Defense Shooting: Neutralizing a Threat v. Killing a Criminal"
From self-defense law scholar (and former prosecutor) T. Markus Funk.
I'm delighted to pass along this item from T. Markus Funk, author of Rethinking Self-Defence: The 'Ancient Right's' Rationale Disentangled (2021), Understanding the Role Values Play (and Should Play) in Self-Defense Law, 58 American Criminal Law Review 331 (2021), Cracking Self-Defense's Intractable 'Difficult Cases,' 100 Nebraska Law Review (2021), and What US Law Reformers Can Learn from Germany's Value-Explicit Approach to Self-Defense, 73 South Carolina Law Review 195 (2021).
On January 5, 2023, at around 11:30 p.m., a 46-year-old diner-patron was sitting in a booth at the southwest Houston's El Ranchito Taqueria #4 when a masked robber began pacing around the restaurant demanding money from the patrons at gunpoint. As the robber walked past the patron the patron pulled out a handgun. The patron then shot and killed the robber, who has been identified as 30-year-old Eric Eugene Washington.
The handgun later turned out to be a fake (the shooter can be seen throwing it against a wall in apparent disgust after the shooting). Yet there can be little question that the employees and customers, some of whom crawled under a table desperately seeking cover, had every reason to fear they would be killed or seriously injured that day. According to the as-of-yet unnamed shooter's attorney, "[i]n fear of his life and his friend's life [the shooter] acted to protect everyone in the restaurant." The attorney further accurately commented that in Texas, "a shooting is justified in self-defense, defense of others and in defense of property."
A Texas Grand Jury is now reportedly considering whether that shooter's conduct qualifies as justified self-defense under Texas law. And although the so-called "smart money" understandably is on the prosecutor's office not charging the shooter, his situation is perhaps not as entirely clear-cut as it may at first blush appear.
Just the Facts
A January 10, 2023, Washington Post article describes the shooting this way:
The customer with the gun had thrown cash onto the floor as the intruder walked by his booth, collecting money from several patrons. When the attempted robber came back by the booth, walking toward the front door at the restaurant, the customer pulled out his gun and fired.
Unedited video footage shows he shot Washington four times in quick succession.
Then, after Washington fell to the ground, the customer fired four more times, walking toward his body.
He fired the ninth and final shot standing close to the top half of Washington's body, the video shows.
[Note that although there has been some reporting that the robber was shot as he was "leaving the restaurant" or was "headed towards the door," the surveillance video does not confirm these claims of fact.]
Unsurprisingly, the one thing that is crystal clear is that different commentators have very different perceptions of the shooter; some outlets describe him as a Bernhard Goetz-style "vigilante," while others hail him as a "hero."
A Short Primer on Texas' Laws on Deadly Force in Self-Defense
Much has been written on Texas' stand-your-ground/no retreat and castle-doctrine provisions embedded in Texas Penal Code §9.31 (governing the justified use of non-deadly force) and §9.32 (governing the justified use of deadly force). These enhanced protections for law-abiding citizens, however, will likely not feature heavily in this case. Instead, the outcome, here, will likely be governed by a mix of fairly standard self-defense law, combined with a healthy dose of prosecutorial discretion.
Self-Defense. Texas Penal Code § 9.32 as relevant here provides that:
A person is justified in using deadly force against another … when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary … [1] to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force [or 2] to prevent the other's imminent commission of robbery … or aggravated robbery.
[Note that, per Texas Penal Code § 9.01(3), "deadly force" encompasses serious bodily injury]. These provisions of Texas' self-defense laws generally track the laws in other U.S. states. They are focused on a defender deploying deadly force to neutralize a deadly threat. Intentionally killing an attacker after the threat is neutralized, on the other hand, exceeds what the law allows, tends to fall more squarely in the punishment or revenge buckets, and can result in separate criminal charges, up to and including murder.
Defense of Others. Texas Penal Code § 9.33 provides that:
A person is justified in using … deadly force against another to protect a third person if[,] under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using … deadly force to protect himself against the … unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect[,] and the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.
Defense of Property. Texas Penal Code § 9.42, in turn, provides in relevant part that:
A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect … tangible, movable property [including cash and wallets] … when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary … to prevent the other's imminent commission of robbery [or] aggravated robbery …; or … to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing robbery [or] aggravated robbery … from escaping with the property ….
How Becoming an Unjustified Threat Creates a "Gap" in the Attacker's Otherwise Inviolable Personal Domain. In past writings, one way I have tried to conceptualize how Texas-style deadly self-preferential force works is to start with the baseline assumption that, all other things being equal, we have an inviolable personal domain that protects us from unjustified physical assault. But with an armed robber all other things are decidedly unequal. By becoming an unjustified deadly threat to others, the attacker creates an opening, or gap, in his right not to be killed or otherwise physically injured. That gap remains open while the attacker poses the unjustified deadly threat. This gap, however, closes as soon as the attacker no longer poses such a threat.
So, the key factual question here, as in almost all claimed self-defense cases, is whether, (1) at the time (2) each instance of deadly force was deployed (that is, each time the shooter pulled the trigger), (3) a reasonable person would conclude that the attacker posed an unjustified threat (4) of death or serious bodily injury.
Applying Texas Law to the Houston Shooting
Self-Defense and Defense of Others. The robber's gun turned out to be a plastic replica. Nevertheless, a fact-finder applying Texas Penal Code § 9.32 will almost certainly conclude that it was objectively reasonable for the shooter, at least when he pulled his gun and fired his first volley of four shots, to believe that the robber posed a real and present ("immediate") threat to both the shooter and the other patrons (Texas Penal Code § 9.33 covers deadly force to protect third persons). Indeed, the panicked reaction of the patrons serves to confirm that they for good reason perceived the robber's threat as very real and very present.
As we know, however, this does not end the inquiry. Let's take a closer look at how the shooter's defensive conduct played out, in each case asking ourselves whether the deadly defensive conduct was immediately necessary at the time (and each time) the shooter pulled the trigger:
The first four shots. As noted, the first four shots fired at the robber in close succession while the robber had his back turned to the shooter are likely uncontroversial (there, after all, are no Marquess of Queensberry Rules requiring fair play when defending your life and the lives of others against an armed, morally culpable robber).
The next three shots. The next three shots, again discharged in short succession as the shooter was walking towards the now-downed robber, are also unlikely to raise too many prosecutorial eyebrows. After all, the robber was masked, the gun still relatively near the robber's hand, and the shooter had no way of knowing if the robber was otherwise armed (or how many times the shooter's shots hit their mark).
A competent defense attorney will, therefore, be able to make a persuasive case that the shooter could not reasonably tell the extent to which the threat posed by the robber was, in fact, fully neutralized.
The eighth shot. By the time the shooter pulls the trigger an eighth time the shooter had walked up to the downed robber and is standing over him (the shooter basically discharged a second succession of shots while walking, with the eight shot being his last) . The shooter then appears to aim directly at the robber's head and pulls the trigger. To some observers this shot may look more like a coup de grâce or kill shot than an effort to neutralize a present and deadly threat.
The ninth (and final) shot. This is where begin to get a bit more dicey for the shooter.
More specifically, the video shows the shooter leaning over the downed robber to retrieve the handgun that the robber dropped when he collapsed. That handgun had skittered across the tile floor and was laying a few feet away. The shooter has the robber's gun in his left hand, stands up, and while stepping back delivers another apparent additional head shot at close range. Notably, and by my calculations, the shooter makes this decision to unload an additional bullet some four seconds after the eighth shot.
Of course, we cannot lose sight of the reality that the shooter was operating under the exigencies of the moment, bringing to mind Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes' dictum in 1921's Brown v. United States that "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." Jurors and prosecutors alike will certainly not lose sight of the reality that the shooter was largely acting on instinct and while operating under extreme emotional pressure. Further, we do not know what the shooter might have perceived while bent over the robber that may be relevant to his decision to resume firing at the robber.
An additional question that is not answerable until the forensic examination of the body is whether the medical examiner can pinpoint the shot or combination of shots that ultimately caused the robber's death (was it the eighth shot, the ninth shot, or some combination of shots?). If it turns out that, say, the eighth or ninth shot missed the robber's head, or that the robber had already succumbed to the first seven shots, then this issue likely becomes moot even if the shooter exceeded the bounds of self-defense (though a very aggressive prosecutor may of course consider bringing a Title 4 attempted murder charge where factual impossibility is irrelevant, see, e.g., Chen v. State, 42 S.W.3d 926, 930 (Tex. Crim. App. 2001)—though this would be an exceptional—and exceptionally unlikely— stretch).
Stopping an ongoing robbery and recovering stolen property. The remaining question, largely ignored by commentators, is whether the shooter was additionally authorized to deploy deadly force to (1) stop an ongoing robbery and/or (2) to ensure that the robber did not get away with the stolen property (money and wallets).
- Stopping a robbery. On the first question we go back to Texas Penal Code § 9.32, which allows deadly force to protect against deadly force or "to prevent the other's imminent commission of robbery … or aggravated robbery." Here, by using what appeared to be a deadly weapon the robber will almost certainly qualify as an aggravated robber under the statute ( 29.03). The robber was in the midst of committing his robbery when he was shot. That said, we are once again confronted by the more challenging question of whether the eighth or ninth shot were reasonably necessary to stop the robbery.
- Defense of property. Turning finally to the defense of property question, Texas Penal Code § 9.42 provides a person can use deadly force against another to prevent the other from committing a robbery or aggravated robbery or to preventing the other from fleeing and escaping with the stolen property immediately after committing such a robbery. Here, the shooter's actions both stopped the (aggravated) robbery and certainly prevented the robber from escaping with the stolen property. Nevertheless, it will be an uphill battle for the shooter to argue that he "reasonably believed the deadly force was immediately necessary" to stop the robber from escaping with the cash, thereby justifying his decision to pull the trigger the eighth and ninth time.
In the final analysis….
There is little basis to question the shooter's initial decision to deploy deadly force against the legally and morally culpable robber. The only potential issue for the shooter is whether prosecutors and jurors, appreciating the exigency of the circumstances, will agree that the shooter's discharge of bullets eight and nine into the downed robber were "immediately necessary" to neutralize a deadly threat posed by the apparently incapacitated robber. And as far as the prosecutors go, the cards will be stacked against a prosecutor, especially one in Texas, wanting to exercise prosecutorial discretion in favor of indicting a shooter who without question stopped an ongoing aggravated robbery and who is hailed a hero among broad swaths of the public. Additional facts—as well as factual claims—will no doubt emerge that may change the complexion of this situation. But for now, it is safe to say that we are once again confronted with a situation where the facts are a bit messier and the outcome somewhat less certain than they might at first blush appear.
UPDATE: See also Markus Funk's interview on the Dan Abrams show.
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Let’s assume, arguendo, that the autopsy reveals that one of the first seven shots proved fatal. At that point, the eighth and ninth shots, even if determined to be legally unjustified, legally speaking, could NOT be murder or even manslaughter. Whatever attempt is appropriate under Texas law, sure, but I can’t see any jury getting that excited about that.
It will make great TV coverage.
Isn’t that the old question of “impossible attempt?” You shoot someone you think is alive, turns out he’s already dead. It is impossible to attempt murder of a corpse, although you think he’s alive.
“Isn’t that the old question of “impossible attempt?” You shoot someone you think is alive, turns out he’s already dead. It is impossible to attempt murder of a corpse, although you think he’s alive”
Could this constitute “Attempted Murder” — you ATTEMPTED to kill someone but aren’t able to because he is already dead….
No. The “impossible attempt” principle is that if you could not commit the actual offence, attempting to commit that offence is also not illegal.
Yeah, but that’s not the law everywhere. This link addresses California law, it’s just the first one I found.
Can You be Charged With Attempted Murder if the “Victim” was Already Dead?
Yes, in some jurisdictions, depending on the circumstances, you can.
That is not correct. The traditional rule is that factual impossibility is not a defense—i.e. that if the defendant would have committed the crime had the facts been as the defendant mistakenly believed them be, the defendant is guilty of attempting to commit that crime. Note that Texas follows this rule. See, e.g., Ex Parte Hicks, 640 S.W.3d 232, 234 (Tex. Crim. App. 2022). This is (arguably)distinct from legal impossibility—if the defendant’s believed that the conduct would be criminal but was mistaken, that would not constitute an attempt. Admittedly this can be a somewhat difficult distinction to apply in some cases, but something like shooting a dead body is not one of them.
As evidenced by all the convictions for attempted rape of a minor for having online chats with a 35 year old police officer.
Additionally, there’s the standard phrase: a dying man can pull a trigger. If you shoot someone, you shoot to kill and don’t stop until they are dead or you run out of bullets. Especially when they have a firearm. Otherwise, they can and will shoot back with their dying breath.
This was one continuous attack and treating the 9 shots individually is wrong on every logical and legal level.
“If you shoot someone, you shoot to kill and don’t stop until they are dead or you run out of bullets.”
Very much no. You shoot to stop the threat, and you stop shooting when the threat stops.
It’s fine to resolve any grey areas in favor of the innocent defender, but not OK to go past stopping the threat into summary execution.
Here is one really good reason for that rule: you, an innocent defender, are mistaken for the bad guy by a bystander. The bystander, believing you are the bad guy, shoots you. Your gun goes flying and you are now laying incapacitated on the ground. At this point, are you OK with the bystander following the rules of engagement you propose and finishing you off?
Yes, I’ll be careful next time I go to a Restaurant wearing a mask, pretending to have a gun, and demanding money from the patrons.
You are entirely missing the point. Ben’s proposed rule (keep shooting until empty) would be applied in circumstances far removed from the specifics of this particular case.
If someone does something where they need to be shot doesn’t matter if it’s 1 time or 101. My usual carry pistol is an S&W model 19 .357 revolver, and I don’t carry a speed loader, so if I can’t take out the badguy(s) with 6 125g JHP’s I deserve whatever I get.
Frank “Dirty” Drackman
At what point does the threat stop? At what point in your fantasy world is that an objective question?
At the point where a jury considers whether what you did was criminal or not.
If I were a prosecutor I don’t think I would take this case before a jury.
If you shoot someone, you shoot to kill and don’t stop until they are dead or you run out of bullets.
If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone regurgitate this bit of stupidity…
Would you like some examples of folks who are currently serving time in a penitentiary because they adhered to your idiotic philosophy while engaged in what would have otherwise been easily legally justified self-defense shootings?
Yes, actually. Those examples and case cites would be very helpful to the discussion here.
It’ll take some time to dig them all up, but for starters he’s one of the better examples.
https://www.koco.com/article/pharmacist-who-claimed-self-defense-seeks-sentence-reduction/19819200
All white members of the jury are race traitors. No self-respecting white would ever convict a fellow white man for dispatching a black thug. It’s us or them.
Obvious Troll is obvious.
In this case the pharmacist walked past the downed robber to shoo off the other assaulted. He then walked past the downed robber to go back behind his counter (where he was when he first shot in self-defense). He grabbed a second gun, walked back out from the counter to the robber he previously downed (and walked past twice already) and shot him some more.
It was two *very* separate incidents of shooting… and the second got him a murder wrap.
And yet it was clearly a case of someone following the philosophy of…
“If you shoot someone, you shoot to kill and don’t stop until they are dead or you run out of bullets.”
Are we arguing legally, or philosophically? The fact that the law says something just means the law is an ass in this case.
Morally, ONLY I have the power to decide whether I feel the threat has stopped or not.
Are we arguing legally, or philosophically?
Given that I referred to those who are currently serving time in prison I’ll just write that off as a dumb question that does not merit an answer.
Morally, ONLY I have the power to decide whether I feel the threat has stopped or not.
Hopefully that will come as a great comfort to you while your cell mate is making you his bitch for the next 10 to 20 years.
legal insurrection has a good legal analysis of the shooting.
Note that legal issue is separate from the emotional issue ( repeat violent offender deserved to die – is not a factor in deciding the legal issue of justified self defense)
Totally.
Whether he deserved to die or not – the legal issue as to the killing was justified is the question. See the legal analysis at Legalinsurrection.com
What was the victim supposed to do? Use Spock’s “Vulcan Nerve Pinch” to disable the shitbag?
No, use the first 7 or 8 shots. Notice it’s only the last one that is an issue, and perhaps the 8th.
That may be the stupidest thing I’ve ever read on this blog, which is saying something (about your stupidity)
Because? While the shooter stands at least a fair chance of a no-bill by a sympathetic grand jury, the last shot being administered after the perp was down and disarmed is in fact a legal vulnerability, no matter what you or I might think about the perp’s value (or lack thereof) to society.
He did not know whether he had another weapon. Have you ever heard a 911 call where a homeowner has shot an intruder and the apparently dead intruder gets off the floor and kills the homeowner? I have. After hearing that, if I ever have to shoot an intruder, I will empty the clip. You do not know if an armed intruder is incapacitated, immobilized, and unarmed until they are dead. I hate with all my heart the idea of ending anyone’s life and I hate that this guy is dead. But it’s not a game.
What you might be inclined to do based on whatever experiences you might have had in life is irrelevant to the legal question at hand. If the mere possibility of a second weapon were legal justification for continuing to employ deadly force after an aggressor has been apparently incapacitated and disarmed then self-defense laws on the use of deadly force with a firearm would in effect be “shoot to kill” laws, which they most assuredly are not.
No. And notwithstanding your claim, I doubt you have either. But regardless, the law is not that you can kill anyone just because it’s theoretically possible that they’re a threat.
This is discussed in the legalinsurrection.com article. Per the law there must be some evidence, not mere potentiality, that there is a second weapon for the attacker to still pose a threat allowing for the use of self-defense.
The 911 call was played in a TX CHL class.
And you’re not going to get prosecuted successfully if you empty a clip into an armed robber. In the case at hand, he stopped shooting, then shot again after the robber was down and disarmed (at least of the weapon in his hand). That’s why he’s being questioned. Nobody would be questioning if he’d shot all nine rounds in succession. He still doubt he’ll be prosecuted.
“Desecrating a corpse”, maybe? It’s a class A misdemeanor in Texas. If I were on the grand jury I’d suggest it, anyway.
But for that, you would have to know it’s a corpse. The Texas statute uses the term “knowingly,” so I would think that the defendant has to know it’s a corpse.
Statute here:
https://casetext.com/statute/texas-codes/penal-code/title-9-offenses-against-public-order-and-decency/chapter-42-disorderly-conduct-and-related-offenses/section-4208-abuse-of-corpse#:~:text=Section%2042.08%20%2D%20Abuse%20of%20Corpse%20(a)%20A%20person%20commits,illegally%20disinterred%3B%20(3)%20sells
So if shooter thinks he’s alive, but in reality he’s already dead (as later confirmed by a medical examiner), it can’t be murder and it can’t be knowing desecration of a corpse.
Under the context it’s better than attempted murder, which is something they can certainly charge you with when you unjustifiably shoot a dead person thinking they’re still alive.
I think the “knowingly” there applies to the action, not the corpse status. So you couldn’t be convicted if you accidentally dug up a corpse while cutting a drainage ditch, or something like that.
Is desecrating a corpse somehow a lesser included offense for attempted murder? They might be in a position where they can’t prove his state of mind either way.
I’m not positive, but I’d be inclined to think that attempted murder and desecration of a corpse would be inherently mutually exclusive charges.
No. They don’t have the same elements. In Texas, a lesser has to have the same elements except one or a lower mental state, basically.
While I find the final shot troubling, there is the issue of Mens Rea — at what point did the shooter process the information that the perp was no longer a threat?
I’ve heard of instances where an officer honestly believed that he’d emptied his weapon but in reality never took the safety off and hence never fired a round (his partner took down the perp). Guns are LOUD (particularly if your experience is on the range with hearing protection) and loud noise is disorienting.
Fear is not a rational emotion — while *I* wouldn’t have fired the 9th shot (or like to think that I wouldn’t have), he was confronting what he had reason to believe was a lethal threat.
Guns being “LOUD” is one of the reasons that my instructors made us shoot without hearing protection some of the time. We also shot with other loud noises and visual distractions to expose us the pressure and real world situations that we might encounter.
So your instructors preferred hearing damage?
Hearing damage vs inability to react correcting in a life-or-death crisis? Yeah, that’s a trade-off I’d make. (And, in fact, did make while in the service.) But I can understand the people who would make the trade differently.
Maybe he thought it was a family of illegal immigrants trying to apply for asylum.
Maybe he thought it was a family of illegal immigrants trying to apply for asylum.
And there’s the pants-on-head stupid comment we’ve all been waiting for.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/01/08/assessing-bidens-new-immigration-policies/?comments=true#comment-9867650
Dr. Ed 2 3 days ago
Flag Comment Mute User
I think we should shoot ILLEGAL aliens.
The logical point is when the previously-justified shooter picked up the robber’s gun.
At that point it should be fairly clear the shooter knew the robber … didn’t have the gun.
The shot to the head after that – the 9th shot – is the problem.
How did he know he didn’t have another gun? I often carry two.
fastest reload is a second gun
This, to me, seems to he the biggest issue with a prosecution. The whole event is what… 15 seconds? The article calls out 4 seconds like it is long enough to write a dissertation after fully analyzing the event. In reality… four seconds means this is all one continuous event to me.
This is addressed in the original post:
This should be an interesting thread.
This “delights” you?
What is he supposed to bawl his eyes out for three paragraphs about some violent robber he doesn’t know personally before he can get on to business?
The deaths of tons of noncriminals are announced very close to smiles and jokes by tons of talking heads and media personalities. Odd how this is what bothers you so much.
He is delighted to pass along cogent commentary on the law. Previous examples:
“I’m delighted to report that Prof. Tom Merrill, of Columbia Law School, will be guest-blogging this week on West Virginia v. EPA, potentially one of the most important regulatory decisions by the Supreme Court in years….”
“Here’s IJ’s little pitch, which I’m delighted to pass along,…”
From just a day ago: “I’m delighted to report that Alison Siegler (@SieglerAlison)—Clinical Professor of Law, the Founding Director of the University of Chicago Law School’s Federal Criminal Justice Clinic (FCJC), and the lead author of Freedom Denied: How the Culture of Detention Created a Federal Jailing Crisis (2022)—…”
“I’m delighted to welcome Ilya Somin as a Volokh Conspiracy guest-blogger for this week and next. Ilya teaches at George Mason law school, and writes about property rights,…”
“I’m delighted to report that Prof. Claeys will be guest-blogging this week about this new article of his; here’s the Abstract:…”
And on and on; EV has the delightful character quirk of being easily delighted, which beats the heck out of going through life as a grumpy sourpuss always looking to assume the worst about others.
“I’m delighted to welcome Ilya Somin as a Volokh Conspiracy guest-blogger for this week and next. Ilya teaches at George Mason law school, and writes about property rights,…”
For real? The last delight anyone experienced from Somin.
This “delights” you?
I’m delighted to inform you that you are an insufferable bore.
Dead violent black men (I know, “violent” and “black men” are redundant) do delight me.
Too bad for the shooter he’s not a cop. Then, even a cell phone or wallet could be identified as a firearm, and there’d be no doubt it was a good shooting (if perhaps a bit excessive).
Even if it was just a BB gun, the Robber could have put somebody’s eye out! Righteous Shooting.
I think you misunderstand the law of cops. In that scenario, the cop didn’t need to say that he saw a gun or that he misidentified a cell phone or wallet as a gun; the cop just needs to say that he thought the guy was reaching for his waistband, where there could have been a gun.
I think a cop would be in more jeopardy than a common citizen.
He’s going to plead that the last shot was due to shock, and the stressful situation and adrenaline affecting his judgement.
I think a jury of Texans who would see every shot up until the last one would decline to punish him for that last shot when he like all the bystanders would be in shock, and still trying to process what happened.
Based on reading news articles from a long distance away, I have the impression that Texas prosecutors are especially likely to present a case like this one to a grand jury when they do not expect or intend to prosecute. You could call it the inverse ham sandwich rule.
Agree. Gives new meaning to the phrase, “Don’t mess with Texas”. 🙂
Funny thing is, that phrase actually came from an anti-littering campaign that the state of Texas ran in the 1990s. But it was culturally appropriated by the gun movement.
Nah, as a Texas resident in the 90’s it was culturally appropriated by Texans for EVERYTHING.
Nah, as a Texas resident in the 90’s it was culturally appropriated by Texans for EVERYTHING.
Up to and including putting beans in chili. (OK, especially putting beans in chili.)
“You could call it the inverse ham sandwich rule.”
The “bagel with lox rule?”
Bad shooters get locked up. Good shooters get loxxed up.
I have the impression that Texas prosecutors are especially likely to present a case like this one to a grand jury when they do not expect or intend to prosecute.
That would be a mistaken impression, as presentation to a grand jury is pretty much standard procedure in TX for all cases in which a shooting results in a fatality.
This is true. There are times that you want to have the group of citizens be the ones to say “this was okay” instead of you just deciding not to prosecute. If you’re wrong and the grand jury is outraged by the conduct, then you can reconsider.
What everyone misses: Self-defense is a constitutional right, and unjustified prosecutions where there is self-defense is a huge problem.
It may be a right but in duty to retreat states the shooter would be screwed.
True.
Now think that through all the way.
If your point is that “duty to retreat” states violate their citizens’ constitutional and natural rights — I agree.
I also think there is a constitutional right to self defense, but that is hardly a universally held principle, particularly on the right who doesn’t much like rights that aren’t explicitly enumerated.
I also don’t see how that right requires foregoing prosecution of killings if it looks like self defense. That is not how any other right operates, and would seem to present some real issues in putting the cart before the horse when investigating killings.
A trial is a burden on the right . . . . Rittenhouse.
Uhhhhh.
Yep. Look at the video. He is threatened, even retreats, is chased, and fires. That’s self-defense.
What provision are you looking to?
What provision are you looking to?
Likely the basis for the natural law right that is enumerated in 2A. Or are you one of those who think that “the right of the people to keep and bear arms” was predicated exclusively on the right to hunt?
The 9th amendment.
And Blackstone (1768) for the clear evidence that it was recognized as a fundamental right “retained by the people” at the founding:
“The defence of one’s self, or the mutual and reciprocal defence of such as stand in the relations of husband and wife, parent and child, master and servant. In these cases, if the party himself, or any of these his relations, be forcibly attacked in his person or property, it is lawful for him to repel force by force; and the breach of the peace, which happens, is chargeable upon him only who began the affray. For the law, in this case, respects the passions of the human mind; and (when external violence is offered to a man himself, or those to whom he bears a near connection) makes it lawful in him to do himself that immediate justice, to which he is prompted by nature, and which no prudential motives are strong enough to restrain. It considers that the future process of law is by no means an adequate remedy for injuries accompanied with force; since it is impossible to say, to what wanton lengths of rapine or cruelty outrages of this sort might be carried, unless it were permitted a man immediately to oppose one violence with another. Self-defence, therefore, as it is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not, neither can it be in fact, taken away by the law of society. In the English law particularly it is held an excuse for breaches of the peace, nay even for homicide itself: but care must be taken, that the resistance does not exceed the bounds of mere defence and prevention; for then the defender would himself become an aggressor.”
History and tradition.
You know, I don’t have a problem with the argument that self-defense is a constitutional right, but it would sit better not coming from people who insist that abortion can’t be one because the word isn’t in the constitution.
You know, I don’t have a problem with the argument that self-defense is a constitutional right, but it would sit better not coming from people who insist that abortion can’t be one because the word isn’t in the constitution.
Unless you have a quote of Kazinski explicitly arguing that abortion isn’t constitutionally protected because the word “abortion” doesn’t appear in that document then that’s an extremely disingenuous complaint. The argument (from those who aren’t extreme simpletons) is generally not anywhere near that pedantic, and is usually more along the lines of noting that the procedure is not even implied by anything in COTUS.
All thanks to Kyberia (Goddess of Technology), for providing video recording of the event.
I think the Grand Jury is a good idea – but mainly to reinforce that the Texas laws, the shooter’s actions, and law enforcement’s actions are valid.
Ass-umed Guilty before showing your innocent? No thanks,
The grand jury doesn’t determine guilt. It determines if there is cause for a trial (to determine guilt).
Blackstone (or Blackftone) says “…fo tender is the law of England of the lives of the fubjects, that no man can be convicted at the fuit of the king of any capital offence, unlefs by the unanimous voice of twenty four of his equals and neighbours: that is, by twelve at leaft of the grand jury, in the firft place, affenting to the accufation ; and afterwards, by the whole petit jury, of twelve more, finding him guilty upon his trial.”
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/blackstone_bk4ch23.asp
Of course, the Fifth amendment refers to capital *or otherwise infamous* crimes.
The Texas Constitution provides this:
“no person shall be held
to answer for a criminal offense. unless on an indictment of a
grand jury, except in cases in which the punishment is by fine or
imprisonment, otherwise than in the penetentiary, in cases of
impeachment, and in cases arising in the army or navy, or in the
militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger.”
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/CN/pdf/CN.1/CN.1.10.pdf
Let me just ask the legal eagles:
Are there any possible circumstances in which a grand jury is obliged to indict a suspect without believing that suspect is guilty? Or do they *always* have to think him guilty before charging him?
A grand jury is not tasked with deciding guilt or innocence. A grand jury is tasked with deciding whether there is probable cause to believe he’s guilty.
To be clear, I realize that this is in theory rather than real life. Hard to imagine many grand jurors saying, “Actually, I don’t think he’s guilty at all, but there’s sufficient evidence to find probable cause, so I’ll vote to indict.”
Yes – I, too, doubt that grand jurors deliberately violate the commandment against bearing false witness.
A coworker once served on a grand jury. He became convinced that one of the accused was absolutely not guilty and voted against indicting him. Shortly after that he was brought into the judge’s chambers for a discussion with the judge and the prosecutor. He explained that he was convinced of innocence and why. He was removed from the grand jury.
Utterly appalling.
Legally speaking, the grand jury is never *required* to indict and should never indict unless they believe there is probable cause to believe he’s guilty of the offense.
I recall reading (in the context of warrants) that they did a survey of judges who had highly divergent definitions of probable cause.
So in the context of grand juries (where the 5th Amendment, unlike the 4th, has no mention of probable cause), I think there’s enough ambiguity that grand jurors would be able to follow the Decalogue without violating their positive-law duties.
Yeah, where everyone’s ass-umed to be guilty (because most are), wonder what the conviction rate is in Houston? Shit, Fuck, That.
I thought vigilante means a person who goes out of their way looking for crime or trouble to fight, not some dude minding his own business until he responded to a direct threat in a way that some people disapprove of. Sort of dilutes the connotation and the etymology doesn’t even make sense anymore. So if my cat scratches me after I pet him does that make him a vigilante cat?
“So if my cat scratches me after I pet him does that make him a vigilante cat?”
Cats follow but one law: their own.
Love when my cat embraces my (protected) arm with his front and back paws and pretends he’s disemboweling a Squirrel on the Serengeti .
Nobody with an above-room-temperature IQ would ever accuse most news media reporters (especially at organizations like ABC) of being honest in their use of language.
I wonder how many old-timers here recall Lathrop’s attempt, at one of the older instances of VC, to redefine “vigilantism” into near meaninglessness in order to engage in similar dishonest mischaracterizations, and then later claiming that he never tried to so redefine it…all in the same thread.
And I look forward to his contributions of similar inanity in this tread.
A similar issue came up in the Rodney King case. The legal and moral lines are in different places. According to contemporary legal analysis, police were legally entitled to beat King into submission. The question for the juries was whether they continued the beating after it was no longer justified. To the public the LAPD officers may have looked like thugs from the beginning of the video, like the Texas restaurant shooter may look like a hero to the end of the video.
“To the public the LAPD officers may have looked like thugs”
Not an universal opinion. They were acquitted in state court. Even after the riots, only 2 were convicted in the political motivated federal case.
Would a cop be prosecuted for the same pattern of actions? If not (and I think the answer is clearly not), then the prosecutor has no business wasting anybody’s time with this case.
It used to be police could shoot a man in the back without consequence, but there is a trend in recent years towards looking more closely.
Several years ago a Massachusetts State Trooper shot a man unnecessarily during an arrest. He got away with it at first, but two changes caused him to be prosecuted later. First, the Boston Globe called him a racist based on his social media posts, requiring officials to take action. Second, voters elected a self-proclaimed progressive prosecutor. The statute of limitations had not expired. She had him indicted for assault with a dangerous weapon.
And third, the once sterling reputation of the Mass State Police had become, umm, a bit tarnished for other reasons….
First, the Boston Globe called him a racist based on his social media posts
That is the preferred formulation at the Volokh Conspiracy (and in conservative circles in general). A movement conservative never concedes that a racist is a racist.
Also, blame a newspaper or the media (a mainstream publisher, ideally) whenever possible.
Deftly played, from the conservative perspective.
Rev.olting view as usual from the Rev.olting Rev. Sandusky
I don’t think that you can easily conclude a police officer wouldn’t be prosecuted for this fact pattern:
Securing a shot-8-times criminal’s weapon, followed by summary execution via shot to the head, caught on video? In that scenario, I personally think a police officer would be more likely to be indicted than the non-police shooter under discussion.
“Would a cop be prosecuted for the same pattern of actions? If not (and I think the answer is clearly not), then the prosecutor has no business wasting anybody’s time with this case.”
I’d actually be MORE inclined to prosecute a cop in this situation. I expect cops to have the training and experience to have the ability for reflection that they’re not going to retrieve a suspect’s gun and then shoot him twice more. An ordinary person without that training and experience, I’d be much more inclined to give a pass of not being capable of cool calculation and just kept shooting in one situation of only 15 seconds or so.
FWIW, the general opinion on the gun boards I read is that the final shot isn’t justifiable.
That’s certainly my opinion, at least based on the facts as related.
Wasn’t joking above about charging him with corpse desecration, it does seem the appropriate charge given the facts.
Until we have the ME’s report (which I think might raise as many questions as it answers) we won’t know if it was in fact a corpse when the final shot was fired.
He was a “Corpse in Progress”
In Texas and in many other places, if you shoot someone in the process of dying, you’re still guilty of causing the death. That’s why assisted suicide is still illegal in many places, because killing someone with a terminal illness is still murder. If you walk up and shoot someone, you don’t get a pass if they happened to be about to die.
“Dead” is kind of a vague state, when you get down to it. It’s quite possible to be declared dead in the field based on a condition that would be survivable if you happened to be in an appropriately equipped surgical theater. Shot through the heart? Drowned in a cold lake?
Really, all it means in the end is, “Couldn’t be revived under the circumstances.
I had a case where a guy found his wife’s lover with his wife at her lover’s house and proceeded to fist fight, then used a pocket knife to stab him repeatedly about the head and neck resulting in massive loss of blood. The victim (still alive and conscious) yelled at the girl to get his (the victim’s) gun..which she does but is so nervous she drops it. Scorned lover picks it up and shoots the guy above his left eye in the forehead. Then twice more in the chest for good measure. Shooter then flees to his car and drives away and the girl and a neighbor who hears the shots calls 911.
First responders arrive approximately 5-6min later and hear breathing/gurglling sounds and begin chest compressions and CPR. Guy eventually codes out and they stop. But he was stabbed 17 times, shot in the head at close range, shot twice in the chest/torso at close range and with zero medical help was still technically alive 5-6minutes later??? I wouldn’t have thought that possible. Med examiner ruled cause of death to ultimately be the gunshot to the head. Go figure.
If a True Bill is returned it’s the final shot that will have done it.
Legal analysis and conclusions from gun boards is about as meaningful as the same from the average Facebook neighborhood group.
I can’t envision myself ever visiting a ‘gun board,’ but the entire second set of shots were likely unnecessary. The last shot is an execution.
My stance on the 2A and its application is not unknown around here. I’d be willing to give the guy a pass on shots 5-7, and perhaps 8, as being the result of adrenaline. It is clear from the video that the suspect is likely expiring before those shots, and the only movement that occurs is the falling of his head completely to the floor. I don’t think that justifies shots 5-7, but I’d let that go.
Shot 8 is generally lumped into the above.
Shot 9 is excessive, and it’s murder. If we as a society can agree that people do have the right to defend themselves from a deadly threat using lethal force, we also need to recognize when someone’s gone too far and that force was no longer needed.
Patron has to stand trial.
It is clear from the video that the suspect is likely expiring before those shots
You’ll forgive me if I decline to take seriously your claims regarding what you can clearly discern about someone’s condition from a video like that, let alone what you think the shooter should have processed and the conclusions he should have drawn in a single handful of seconds.
You’ll have to forgive your optometrist if you can’t see the same for yourself.
Your claiming to seeing things that aren’t actually visible is more a case for a psychiatrist than an optometrist.
From the article:
“The only potential issue for the shooter is whether prosecutors and jurors, appreciating the exigency of the circumstances, will agree that the shooter’s discharge of bullets eight and nine into the downed robber were “immediately necessary” to neutralize a deadly threat posed by the apparently incapacitated robber.”
Odd that the author also sees it, yet you don’t appear to have any criticisms for their observation.
What other stupid shit would you like to say now? Don’t hesitate – anything you say will fit.
You’re confused (as usual). You being too braindead to grasp the difference between “apparently incapacitated” and “likely expiring” (with the latter not being discernable from the video by you or anyone else) is your issue, not mine.
A distinction without a difference with respect to whether more bullets should have been fired.
What do you think the outcome of the original suspect would be absent medical intervention? Are you that fucking stupid to think the bullet holes will magically stop leaking blood and he’ll eventually just get up and walk out?
You are, without any doubt, the dumbest person on this site.
Congratulations on your one and only life accomplishment.
Robber’s mask didn’t seem to protect him.
Score one for the good guys.
There’s a big difference between shooting someone threatening you with a gun and shooting a retreating person in the back as he walks away.
If it’s wrong for the police to shoot a retreating suspect in the back, it’s also wrong for private citizens to do so.
How was the victim supposed to know the Shit-bag (disparaging I know, to innocent bags of shit) was “retreating” he’d already done the same move a few times already. And people can shoot you while running away. Would have loved to see the Victim (I’m talking about the Shooter, not the late Shit-bag) casually pick up his shell casings (it’s not polite to litter the range) pretty sure with today’s ammo prices he’s a reloader.
Frank
Was he retreating, though? Yes, he’s headed in the direction of the door. But he’s also headed in the direction of that guy sitting in the corner by the door with his hands up.
I think the shooter’s actions after the shooting that I posted about below suggest that he really thought he was protecting at the time he pulled the trigger.
But I can’t read the mind of either party…..
There’s a big difference between shooting someone threatening you with a gun and shooting a retreating person in the back as he walks away.
On what is your assertion that the perp was in the process of retreating based? It sure as hell isn’t on the video of the incident. Here, KHOU 11 even freeze-frames it for you at the 25 second mark, where the shooter is seen drawing and pointing his weapon at the robber (who we know he then instantly began firing at) while the latter is still well within the restaurant, with his gun pointed at a patron in the upper-left corner.
Your pattern of drawing conclusions based on not bothering to get all the facts remains unbroken.
Damn, my paste of the link to the KHOU 11 video didn’t take. Here it is. Oh, and the freeze-frame begins at the 20 second mark, not the 25.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPPhFdZas3c
Strange thing is he was sentenced to 15 years for a previous armed robbery in 2015 and released after 5 years. In Texas????? Love hearing him explain this one to his Parole Officer.
Released because of Wuflu 19?
Even in Texas the American legal system is far too soft on crime. I’m hoping the backlash from the current resulting crime wave moves the pendulum back the other way and we see longer sentences, more executions, and harsher prisons. This criminal killed a guy, spent five years in what’s effectively summer camp, and was back on the streets. Just absurd.
He was also out on bail after being charged with hitting his girlfriend last month.
In the case where the guy was killed he wasn’t the only guy involved in the robbery and wasn’t charged with the killing, just armed robbery (“just” lol). Don’t know why that was done or what happened to his fellow robbers. But since his charges didn’t include anything related to the death that helps explain the seemingly short prison stay.
he’ll certainly help Texas’s “Recidivism” statistics.
No decent person thinks the American legal system is soft on crime. Five years in prison (not a “summer camp”) is a horrific experience. News reports said that he was convicted of aggravated armed robbery, not that he “killed a guy.”
Five years in prison (not a “summer camp”) is a horrific experience.
Perhaps. But it appears to have not been horrific enough to make this perp want to do everything he reasonably could to avoid having a lot more of the same experience.
Jesus. As though if deterrence doesn’t work it’s because you’re not using enough of it. Not all psychology works that way.
Lets start lopping off hands for thieves, I guess!
Works in Saudi Arabia, or at least, makes it easy to recognize “Parolees”
Frank “Lefty”
Some people are incorrigible. Others just stupid. Or risk takers. Or desperate. But the fact that it didn’t rehabilitate him does not make it “summer camp.”
…the fact that it didn’t rehabilitate him does not make it “summer camp.”
Nor did I say that it does. My point being that in some/many cases the reality may well lie somewhere in between the two extremes.
That is not your point above, which is about the status quo being too lenient:
it appears to have not been horrific enough to make this perp want to do everything he reasonably could to avoid having a lot more of the same experience.
Prison in Texas is not a summer camp unless your idea of summer camp is sweltering summers and freezing winters with inadequate climate control, constant threat of violence from racially segregated gangs, and food that you’d be embarrassed to feed your dog.
And to whom exactly is that response directed?
But if he’d been in jail until 2030 like he was supposed to be, he’d still be alive. Hmm, maybe “Early Parole” is a good thing.
Scarier prisons won’t deter everybody, but there’s no real downside to scarier prisons. It deters those that can be deterred. So some stupid or incorrigible criminals suffer a little bit more with no deterrent effect, so what? No deterrent is effective against 100% of the potential audience, that doesn’t mean it’s a reason not to do it.
Even if human decency is unimportant to you — and it appears that this is the case — it is of course not true that there’s no downside. Prison does rehabilitate some. “Scarier prisons” are less likely to do that. Since the vast majority of those in prison are going to get out at some point, we’d probably like them to not emerge worse than when they went in.
Also, as criminologists have repeatedly explained, likelihood of punishment is far more of a deterrent than severity of punishment.
Even if human decency is unimportant to you — and it appears that this is the case — it is
Your virtue signaling is no less pathetic and disingenuous than Sarcastr0’s.
The sentence was 15 years, I believe and the store owner was killed during thr robbery (but apparently not by the shooting victim).
So then SomeGuy 2 was wrong to say that he “killed a guy.”
But if that’s what happened, why wasn’t he charged with/convicted of felony murder? It’s not like Texas prosecutors are known for their restraint. (Best guess (without knowing a thing about it) is that the evidence against the guy was weak, and they plea bargained that charge away.)
” (Best guess (without knowing a thing about it) …..”
That could sum up most of the posts on this thread since few if any facts have been reported and most comments are based on a 33 second video.
“No decent person thinks the American legal system is soft on crime.”
You have a weird definition of “decent”, in effect “people who agree with me”.
I await your grade school insult.
“No decent person thinks the American legal system is soft on crime.”
Obviously it was in this case. He was a participant in an armed robbery where the business owner ended up dead (killed a guy). He then received an extremely lenient sentence, didn’t even serve the whole thing, and prison was not traumatic enough– it was so easy that he went right back to crimes because he wasn’t scared enough of going back to prison.
He likely should have been hanged after his first crime or, at minimum, received life in prison without parole. To the extent he’s receiving summer camp, styled as “prison”, with a chance of getting out, the prison should be scarier so he’s more afraid to return, rather than a lush campus where the largest complaints are the other inmates and not enough air conditioning– some comparative political science helps here, most of South America is more effective at creating scary prisons than we are. Even Texas, with a largely undeserved reputation for being good on crime, was way too lenient on this guy and it fell to a private citizen to protect the public.
There is deep rot in the criminal justice system, because criminals and their advocates are tireless. Most ordinary citizens don’t think of it much at all, and only crime victims when it directly impacts them. So it’s a captured regulator that mostly works for criminals. We need a criminal justice system that’s harsher on criminals because right now they don’t suffer enough for their crimes, hence their lack of fear of the courts and prison. This case is but one example and we wouldn’t even be talking about it but for this incident caught on video.
15 years is a mindbogglingly harsh sentence, not an “extremely lenient” one. The people who go around claiming that are people who wouldn’t last 15 weeks in prison, let alone 15 years.
A couple of points that I didn’t see mentioned here that might (or might not, I guess) be material:
When the shooter picked up the robbers gun and realized it was fake, he was upset enough to shout an expletive and throw the gun against the wall with force. That may suggest that he didn’t like finding out that the shooting wasn’t ultimately necessary (which obviously he couldn’t have known at the time he fired) and suggest that his motives were consistent with the law.
He also took the stolen money off of the robber and put it on a table on his way out the door so that the people who had money taken by the robber could retrieve their property. (Note that all of the customers also skedaddled before the cops arrived). Again I think that speaks to his frame of mind in the moment. He seems to have been legitimately trying to keep people from harm, physical and financial.
I can’t imagine that a grand jury (or a trial jury) in Texas is gonna want to punish this guy.
Depends on where they get the people for it; There are certainly areas of Texas where the people are fairly left-wing, especially after the last few years’ immigration from California.
or a jury with 12 of the shitbirds “Social Cohort”, there is a fairly sizeable segment of the population that doesn’t think it’s that big a deal to commit violent crimes (see some of the responses hear) but if you protect yourself from a violent criminal you’re required to follow Marquis of Queensbury Rules.
I’m in the group that thought “Dexter” got a raw deal.
Frank
They’re going to get the people for it in Harris County. Left leaning as to election results, but uniformly sick of violent crime.
I’m deeply troubled by the state of the law. A feral predator was neutralized and no people got hurt, yet even in Texas there’s the possibility a hero will face legal trouble. In a just society, we should be discussing when the mayor would pin a medal on the hero’s chest. This is the sort of behavior we want more of; the law should actively encourage these sorts of actions. If it deters predators then great; if not, then their careers will be short and come to an exciting conclusion.
Best comment of the morning.
I would think a guy in your political position would be an ardent advocate for mercy and leniency, because the only hope wingnuts have in America is that your betters are magnanimous toward you as the culture war continues and resolves.
There’s a potential racial component to this and the last head shot does complicate things a bit. Once it hit the news that he had a lawyer who contacted the cops and offered to talk I figured it would end up at the grand jury.
I think this is a virtue signal by the DA – “see, we’re fair” – but there’s no way this guy is gonna take a hit. There is literally nobody here that is worked up about this. Everyone is laughing about the ignorance of robbing a restaurant with several people in a crime prone area of a concealed carry state – Texas, no less – and not considering that you might be outgunned. Surprised that it doesn’t happen more often.
If they’re doing it because of racial politics, that’s worse. This robber was justly put down, the skin color is (or should be) irrelevant. I fear you may be correct, though.
How could you tell his skin color with the Ninja outfit and the N95 mask?
Not really.”Feral predator” may mean an armed robber or an ordinary Republican these days.
We are supposed to be a nation of laws, not vigilantes.
Under the law, the shooter can shoot until the threat is over. Like Branca (legal insurrection) and Funk (above post) I find the 8th and 9th shot unnecessary and problematic. The final shout certainly does look like coup de grace. Now there, is no audio. So maybe the downed robber was still mumbling threats, maybe the shooter thought there was another weapon (dubious). Well See!
Not sure what your slur against republicans is, this is a non-political thread, we’re discussing the neutralization of a criminal.
I think under the law as it exists, the shooter’s actions were justified. If that is even ambiguous, then the Texas legislature is in session and the law should be immediately amended to make it clear that a shooting like this is amply justified. The governor should proactively pardon the shooter just in case, and then the shooter should be presented with a medal, just so we’re clear and predators are on notice.
The idea that someone protecting society from a feral predator has to reevaluate the conditions after each shot is absurd; the first shot was obviously justified and he kept going until he was sure the threat was over. Because of the tireless efforts and criminals and their allies, we have a legal system that tries to protect criminals at every corner and is extremely harsh on regular citizens.
Texas law on use of deadly force is as good as it gets in the free world.
The 9th shot was problematic. You stop shooting when the imminent threat ceases, not a moment later. That is the law. Even if the guy on the ground is alive. *Especially* if the guy on the ground is alive.
My point about “Feral predator” is that the term does not mean much these days. The mob might use it on you one day, when all you did was snark on Twitter.
Then the law should be better and the interpretation is thusly:
If the predator was already dead, then it can’t be murder because he was already dead.
If the predator wasn’t dead, then he was still alive and therefore if in the judgment of the intervenor was still a threat, another shot was justified. Once the predator makes himself a threat, he remains a threat until either dead or in police handcuffs, full stop.
I believe the law can be read in this way now; to the extent it can’t be, then it should be immediately revised.
I believe the law can be read in this way now
Please cite the specific TX statutory language that you believe can be reasonably interpreted in the manner you describe.
“If the predator wasn’t dead, then he was still alive and therefore if in the judgment of the intervenor was still a threat, another shot was justified. ”
That *is* the law (mostly). Except: The judgement … that intervenor was still a threat however must be a reasonable belief. And whether its a reasonable belief is a fact for the jury.
Based on the video, I am skeptical that the 9th shot was reasonable and justified.
We aren’t disagreeing on the law, we are disagreeing whether the 9th shot was justified.
“If the predator wasn’t dead, then he was still alive and therefore if in the judgment of the intervenor was still a threat, another shot was justified. Once the predator makes himself a threat, he remains a threat until either dead or in police handcuffs, full stop.”
You are wrong. Full stop.
My judgement from watching the shooter’s actions after the fact (angrily throwing the gun when he figured out it was fake, giving the money back to the victims) is that he wasn’t some bloodthirsty cowboy lookin’ to kill a criminal, but legitimately was oriented on eliminating a threat. But I ain’t Kreskin.
There’s a grand jury that’ll settle it. Perhaps the last shot bothered someone in the DA’s office enough that they decided to farm out the decision. Nobody is saying anything publicly. The shooter’s name isn’t even public that I’ve seen even though he was clearly captured by the camera and he was with a friend and his truck has to be the only truck that looks like that in greater Houston.
Nobody around here is too worked up about it so I can’t imagine that this shooter is going to bear any punishment, problematic last shot or not.
As a few people point out, “farming it out” to a grand jury is standard.
The analysis in the OP seems spot-on to me. Based on the facts presented, I concur with the conclusion that shots 1-7 are likely fine, 8 might be a little less so but would still get a pass … but that shot 9 could be problematic:
Without more justification, that seems to clearly exceed the bounds of legal self-defense … even if it’s likely that a TX jury might not convict.
The only comment that I would have in defense of the 9th shot (possibly the 8th) is that the shooter is not longer in possession of a clear mind due to the perceived threat of death to him and the subsequent shooting of the perpetrator that had occurre over the last 8-10 seconds. Not trying to defend the actions, only noting that the emotions after the 7th shot are likely causing serious mental stress.
Tough and unfortunate call
Agreed. I think the shooter’s actions are understandable and explainable, even if outside the bounds of legal self-defense.
Which is why I disagree with Rossami’s suggestion up above that a police officer wouldn’t be prosecuted for the same fact pattern: an officer is supposed to be trained to a higher standard than a random diner in a taqueria.
I don’t even have much problem with the 8th shot, but it’s harder to legally excuse “self defense from an armed robber” when you’ve turned the table and you’re literally holding the armed robber’s gun in your own hand. (assuming the facts are as presented, more info could come out, yadda yadda.)
I don’t think he was holding the gun at the time of the last shot. From my memory of the video, which I last saw in the news last week, when he picked up the gun he immediately realized it was fake and yelled “shit” and threw it across the restaurant.
Then bent over, took the stolen money and out it on the table, and left.
I’m going with the facts presented in the OP, which specifically recites the quoted text saying the shooter had the robber’s gun in his left hand before the final head shot. IF true and correct, then that’s a problem.
But also why I included “assuming the facts are as presented, more info could come out, yadda yadda.”
I might be wrong too because I’m relying on a memory of the video from the local news last week.
But from what I remember his realization of the nature of the gun caused an almost immediate visceral reaction which included throwing the gun. I don’t think he shot after that.
Possible that he took the last shot as he was in process of picking up the gun – I don’t remember – but I’m pretty comfortable that he didn’t shoot after he realized the gun wasn’t real.
Almost all of the videos that I’ve seen shown by news stations have been edited to the point of near uselessness. The best one I’ve seen so far is the one posted to Twitter and linked to in the OP:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1611812502249115649
…and you’re surprised because? Oh, I know. Only Project Veritas shows edited videos. Right?
…and you’re surprised because? Oh, I know. Only Project Veritas shows edited videos. Right?
Please cite for me what I said that indicated I was in any way “surprised”, or that the latter sentence was in any way reasonably directed at me.
Bad phrasing on my part and not directed at you.
My point was that the media routinely edit video and this often gives a distorted view of what occurred.
Fair enough.
You are misunderstanding my preferred policy, Zarniwoop. If an officer would not be prosecuted under this fact pattern, then there is no possible justification to prosecute anyone else for the same fact pattern.
But I freely concede that there are circumstances (maybe including this one) where an officer would be prosecutable but the good samaritan should not be. As you say, police are supposed to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us.
I think that caveat doesn’t apply here because I don’t think there’s a jury in the country that would convict a police officer of even that 9th shot given the stress and emotion of such an event. Yes, there was a difference of seconds – but only of seconds.
I think I do understand your preferred policy, and it makes sense to me. My disagreement is not in that overall policy concept, but in how that policy applies to the specific facts recited here.
I think that a police officer would be prosecuted in a fact pattern that involves a shot to the head of an incapacitated robber,after the police officer has disarmed the robber and is holding the robber’s gun in his hand.
Per the facts presented in the OP:
If the facts are different – and they might well be! – then we’re arguing about those facts, not the policy you advocate. Which, again, I have no problem with.
I said as much regarding the 8th, above.
The 9th cannot get a free pass. That’s just execution.
Prepare yourself to be disappointed.
“Citizen’s Execution” the “Andy Griffith” episode you never saw!
Horrible. Regardless of whether a shooting is justified, I think most people would feel horrified afterwards. Taking a human life is a terrible thing, no matter how bad that person shot is.
Love animals, I feel bad when I run over a Squirrel (Sniff, poor Rocket J, I didn’t mean it) even send some Shekels when I see those poor animals on those ripoff ASCPA commercials, when I forget to get our Pomeranian a toy, wouldn’t feel bad about taking out a bad human.
Frank “Dexter Morgan? personal Idol”
Good analysis.
In general when you use justified deadly force, the threat is not really neutralized until they are dead. A lot of people have funny misconceptions like “just shoot them in the leg,” which are just Hollywood fictions. People who are shot multiple times can proceed to stab you. You only ever shoot to kill, and you never stop shooting until the threat is neutralized. If killing is not justified then neither is shooting.
Yeah, but once they’re neutralized, you stop shooting, even if they’re still alive.
“Neutralized”??? Jeezo-Beezos, why do peoples think they sound smart using fancy-schmancy words. “Lee Harvey Oswald stopped shooting when he realized JFK had been “Neutralized” and just unintentionally made a great point, LHO DID stop shooting at John Connally, since he had been umm, “Neutralized” ( I prefer real terms like “Tension Hemo/Pneumothorax, Fractured Ribs, Fractured Radius”, and Connally went on to be one of the biggest crooks of the Watergate error who didn’t get convicted,
Frank
You only ever shoot to kill…
You need to stop getting your understanding of self-defense from movies and gun store counters.
Do tell….. As I said you are shooting to neutralize the threat, which in terms of outward actions is not going to be different than shooting to kill. But yeah, shoot to kill is bad phrasing I guess because it implicates intent.
Do tell….. As I said you are shooting to neutralize the threat, which in terms of outward actions is not going to be different than shooting to kill.
Absolutely wrong. Shooting to neutralize the threat vs shooting to kill specify two very different goals, even though they may well have the same outcome. That’s why the extensive commentary here about the justifiability of the last shot, taken when the threat at least appears (based on the video, though that might not show something that the shooter saw) to have already been neutralized due to his being down and the shooter having already picked up the robber’s gun before taking the last shot. If you’re “shooting to neutralize” in that case your actions at that point are in fact quite different from what you do if you’re “shooting to kill”. I would have thought that the debate in this thread would have made that abundantly obvious.
But yeah, shoot to kill is bad phrasing I guess because it implicates intent.
I assume you meant “implies” here. But, yes…it describes a goal. If your goal is “to kill” then you keep shooting (or otherwise employing deadly force) until the target is dead, as far as you can tell. Otherwise, you stop when the threat is neutralized (again, as far as you can tell). The term “deadly force” does not mean that the purpose of the force is to cause death, but simply that it has a relatively high likelihood of causing death. The fact that “shooting to neutralize” involves the use of deadly force in as effective manner as possible (in that it has the best chance of ending the threat quickly and decisively) does not mean that goal of doing so is the death of the target.
I mentioned yesterday how you should remind yourself about your tendency to be wrong.
“In general when you use justified deadly force, the threat is not really neutralized until they are dead.”
This is wrong.
I’ve only been wrong once. That was when I thought I was wrong but actually I was right.
But really, no. Most of the time if you are shooting at someone in self-defense who has a gun, you are not going to have the opportunity to disarm them, and the threat isn’t neutralized until the person is stopped and they basically appear as dead. As noted, this case is not typical and is a good example of the many times that this doesn’t apply and every situation is different.
Are you one of those “just shoot them in the leg” morons?
Appear as dead, or actually dead?
Why are you moving your goalposts?
With all the easily offended, good thing the Hero didn’t say “Did I shoot 9 times, or only 8? Do you feel lucky?” Guessing he used a 40S&W or 9mm, although I have a (Sweet) CZ97 that holds 10 rounds in the magazine.
Other nice thing about revolvers, no safety, and you don’t have to scurry around picking up your shell casings, if that’s an ish-yew,
Frank
Other nice thing about revolvers, no safety…
*Laughs in Glock, S&W M&P, etc…*
I’ve got some Semi-Autos (don’t tell the Revolvers, no mixing of the Revolvers/SemiAutos in my household) Beretta M9, Various CZ’s, Makarov’s, and my favorite SA (don’t tell the others)
a Remington R1 1911, almost to nice to shoot,
Frank “Nut, Gun”
My point being the lack of a manual safety on so many striker-fired pistols.
Good argument that “Safety’s” cause more injuries than they prevent. Whatever happened to being competent??
Good argument that “Safety’s” cause more injuries than they prevent.
I don’t see where I offered any such argument. The pistols in questions do in fact have safety mechanisms (generally disengaged by activating a switch that is integral to the trigger), just not conventional manual safeties.
Whatever happened to being competent??
I often ask myself the same question about knowing the difference between plural and possessive forms.
Generally I agree its tough to defend the 8th and 9th shot – from the video, which has no audio for me. There may be other evidence.
And to top it all off, the same taqueria was just broken into early yesterday morning by yet another thieving scumbag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHritBC8Ajw
Most of what I have been thinking has been said elsewhere in the comments, but I find the term coup de grace to be odd in the context in which it is being used. Funk and a number of commenters here and elsewhere express concern that the final shot was un- or less-justifiable. A coup de grace is literally a mercy blow (“a death blow or death shot administered to end the suffering of one mortally wounded” according to Merriam-Webster) and by definition carries a differnt mens rea than the earlier shots.
If robber is perceived by shooter to be moving and/or moaning/groaning, etc., prompting the final shot, there are at least two very different legal justifications for that shot: “robber may still be a threat since I don’t have any idea how effective my shots actually were in the heat of the moment,” or “I was sure he in extreme pain and medical treatment would have been futile; in the heat of the moment I acted in a manner that I thought be compassionate and ended his suffering.”
I think that whether or not the 9th shot is “problematic” (which seems to be the preferred terminology for some reason) will depend on what the grand jury concludes about what the shooter knew, or should have know, about the condition of the robber at the time that shot was taken. Was the robber still showing signs of life and/or movement of/toward the weapon that we can’t see on the versions of the video available to us? The level of detail shown in those videos at that point is practically non-existent. All we can tell is that the robber is laying near the door and that the shooter is standing near/over him. I suspect that a grand jury…at least one that isn’t predisposed to indict based on factors other than the available evidence…is going to be hard-pressed to discount whatever the shooter says he saw/perceived at that time that would cause him to conclude that the final shot was necessary/justified.
and/or movement of/toward the weapon
Never mind. After re-watching the unedited version of the video a few more times it appears that the final shot did in fact come immediately after the shooter retrieved the robber’s weapon. That does indeed make things a little more difficult for the shooter’s defense. Not insurmountable, but definitely more difficult.
All these Lawyers, and the “Best Defense” is obvious,
just pull the old Alec Baldwin “The Gun just went off!!!”
heck, Halyna Hutchins wasn’t committing any crime, except for conspiring to charge money to see her movie,
Frank
Surprisingly quiet week so far here at the VC.
Where all the women blog about dating apps, all the men are mostly libertarian, and all the commenters are above average.
Having read this, along with the excellent LI analysis, along with some other incidental takes, and having watched the video multiple times, I have two takeaways:
1) Ninth shot the guy is incredibly hopped up on adrenaline – Now, my personal view is there’s not enough time to expect him to be observing things rationally. In a detached analysis ninth shot is unjustified, but personally I would not fault any non-police civilian for the ninth shot in the heat of the moment – guy’s mission is to eliminate the threat, and that nail is only in when it’s countersunk.
2) What if this were a civilian police officer making the ninth shot? We’d hang him, justifiably or not, because we perceive that the officer must be able to detach more quickly from immediate circumstances because training.
Do we apply the same standard to non-police as we do to police? Not in either direction – a cop shoots your dog, it’s justified; you shoot a cop’s dog, and you’re a cop-killer. Qualified immunity is presumed, rather than the officer’s immediate burden. With heightened protection come heighted expectations of responsibility.
I’d sleep well at night holding different expectations for police and non-police in these circumstances. If I were on the grand jury, I’d let the shooter slide.
“We’d hang him”?? heck, we don’t even execute (Hanging? ha! we have to give the condemned a sedative, so he’s not too anxious, then have trained medical professionals insert intravenous lines (to be honest, probably the closest we have to “Torture” with these fat fucks) to administer the same drugs Vet’s give to euthanize family pets,
No you’re right if you mean “Hang” by ending his law enforcement career, or a life sentence for being in the vicinity of a career criminal dying from fentanyl toxicity, amazed they still get applicants, but hey, supposedly intelligent people go into Pediatrics and Internal Medicine,
Frank
As a long time follower of the Judge Roy Bean school of jurisprudence I have to point out it’s canonical tenent is ‘I seen plenty of men that needed killing but ain’t never seen any money that needed stealing’.
doesn’t Texas have a “needed killing” defense?
I remember Jay Leno joking about that years back.
It used to, but not currently. Not officially, at least, but that’s a common argument on jury nullification.
Hey (man!) Texas is a big Football State,
can we just charge the Shooter with “Targeting” and make him sit out the first 1/2 of the next Armed Robbery??(looks like he really ups his game in the Second 1/2 anyway)
and I’d put the robber down as “Doubtful” for the next robbery,
Frank “You want to see murder? watch was Brady does to the Cowboys”
I’d be interested to know if Markus Funk had ever written or commented about this Texas case from several years ago.
None of the general public has a problem with what transpired, i.e., an armed career criminal walked into a restaurant to terrorize and rob those inside and was eventually eliminated in flagrante. Only lawyers are dumb and/or autistic enough to start picking apart what transpired in a matter of seconds shot by shot. “The seventh shot seems legit, the eighth shot is borderline, and the ninth shot is questionable.” Can I invoke the late great commenter David Behar and object to the lawyering class’s rent-seeking bullshit?
What about it is delightful?
I think Prof. Volokh concedes that. The more difficult question is that after multiple shots, the perp was apparently incapacitated, and there was no need for self-defense to further shoot him. At least that is what a prosecutor might argue.
In the seconds well before the taqueria patron shot the robber, the robber had paced back and forth through the taqueria, toward the exit and away from it again.
The patron had good reason to believe that the robber’s movement toward the exit might not be an attempt to exit. He could have turned again for another pass through the taqueria for more valuables.
No Homo Queenie, but I think this is an Ish-yew we can finally agree on.
Well, sure, but “in the middle of an apparently armed robbery” is a different sort of horrible situation from “standing over the body of somebody you just shot”. Relevantly different, even.
The pause in shooting demonstrates that he was no longer acting on the sort of urgent necessity that doesn’t admit calm reflection.
What do you want him to say? “It is with a heavy heart I pass along…”
Ok HAL 2000, yes it’s not logical to give a Coup de Grace to a piece of shit robber who could have easily just killer you, but we humans have this thing called an Amygdala (I got one, you got one, all Jehovah’s little chillun got Amygdalas) which is what gives you that burning in your stomach when some shitbird like the departed robber does shitbird things. I’d have shot him twice in the head and taken a leak on him just for good measure (also have the enlarged Prostrate)
Frank “Guy should have sticked to Tele-armed-robbery”
The “pause” was maybe 2 seconds in a string of shots that lasted less than 10 seconds. The shooter was probably operating on adrenaline.
The pause in shooting demonstrates that he was no longer acting on the sort of urgent necessity that doesn’t admit calm reflection.
Watch it again, Brett…but this time using a stopwatch so you can see just how brief that pause was, then tell us how quickly you think a normal human being is generally capable of going from fight-or-flight adrenaline dump to a state of “calm reflection”.
Yes, the eighth shot is questionable but the ninth shot seems like the real problem since a fair amount of time is passed and now he has the shooter’s “gun” in his hand before firing. It’s hard to understand how that is self defense since not only is the guy pretty clearly incapacitated but he’s also no longer armed.
I don’t know where you live or with whom you associate but it is not common to me or anyone I know to delightfully pass along anything like this. Soberly, sure. Without any comment on my feelings, yep. I might even say “This is a good (or even great) read/explainer of the legal arguments.” But I would never delightfully pass along images of one person killing another and the analysis that justifies the killing.
I’ve got an Amygdala. It’s just a bit undersized.
The problem with that characterization is that there’s more than a “maybe 2 seconds” pause in the specific facts presented – the shooter took possession of the robber’s gun first, then delivered the final shot to the head:
Understandable adrenaline? Sure. Legal self-defense/defense of others under TX law? Seems … less convincing.
I have no issue with the first 8 shots, but the final one is problematic – even if he’s ultimately not charged, or acquitted.
He could have turned again for another pass through the taqueria for more valuables.
Or to eliminate witnesses (based on the shooter’s reasonable belief that the perp’s gun was an actual firearm.)
Excellent point and more than mere speculation.
In Palatine Illinois in 1993 we had the “Brown’s Fried Chicken massacre”. Every employee (7 of them) was systematically murdered to make sure there were no witnesses.
In 2008 6 women in a Lane Bryant store in Tinley Park were shot, 5 of them killed with one survivor, also shot execution style in the back of the head, but miraculously survived with serious brain damage.
Staking your life on the tender mercies of an armed robber can be a bad and potentially final bet. A bet easily taken on a discussion board, where all you have to lose is a pointless argument.
but the ninth shot seems like the real problem since a fair amount of time is passed
In this context you seem to be using a very generous definition of “a fair amount of time” when referring to a number of seconds that can be counted on the fingers of a single hand…belonging to a clumsy high school shop teacher.
That’s a cop defense. “I was scared” is not by itself a justification for shooting. The fear must be reasonable. (And I’m not judging this case! I’m just saying that one can’t execute someone who no longer poses a deadly threat and say, “Well, my emotions got the best of me.”)
The problem with that characterization is that there’s more than a “maybe 2 seconds” pause in the specific facts presented – the shooter took possession of the robber’s gun first, then delivered the final shot to the head
Watch it again, but in real time. If you think appreciably more than 2 seconds elapsed between the time he fired the 8th shot, saw and grabbed the perp’s gun and the time he fired the last shot you might want to have your watch repaired.
The issue isn’t the exact number of seconds. As you yourself note, the video seems to show the shooter grabbing the robber’s gun before firing the 9th shot.
I’m not claiming there are “more than 2 seconds” elapsed; I’m saying there is more to the facts and analysis than merely clicking start/stop on a stopwatch. Successfully taking the robber’s gun is that “more”, that additional relevant fact that KevinP did not consider.
You seem to acknowledge below that this is a poor fact for the shooter; I think we’re pretty much in agreement here.
OK, poor phrasing on your part and/or misinterpretation on mine. That said…
The elapsed time between the two events is very much an issue, as it is relevant to the state of mind of the shooter and his decision-making ability, or at least is likely to be a consideration for the members of the grand jury.