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N.Y. Law Banning Gun Carrying in Churches (Including When Authorized by Church) Unconstitutionally …
discriminates against religious institutions
So Judge John L. Sinatra Jr. (W.D.N.Y.) held yesterday in Spencer v. Nigrelli:
Plaintiffs argue that, by "prohibiting the exercise of a fundamental constitutional right in places of worship while permitting its exercise on other private property—and by denying to religious leaders the authority it reserves to other private property owners to permit firearms," the State "treats comparable secular activity more favorably than religious exercise and discriminates on the basis of religion." For this reason, and as set forth below, the houses of worship exclusion violates Plaintiffs' right to free exercise of religion guaranteed by the First Amendment. …
"[A] plaintiff may carry the burden of proving a free exercise violation" by "showing that a government entity has burdened his sincere religious practice pursuant to a policy that is not 'neutral' or 'generally applicable.'" Should a plaintiff make such a showing, the Court must find a First Amendment violation "unless the government can satisfy 'strict scrutiny' by demonstrating its course was justified by a compelling state interest and was narrowly tailored in pursuit of that interest." {The Court need not resolve the issue of whether a threshold showing of a burden on a sincerely held religious belief is required [for religious discrimination claims -EV]. As discussed below, that requirement—if it exists—is met because the houses of worship exclusion does burden Plaintiffs' sincerely held religious practices.} Plaintiffs are likely to succeed on the merits of their Free Exercise Clause claims….
Pastor Spencer believes that he has "a moral and religious duty to take reasonable measures to protect the safety of those who enter the Church." He explained that the "Bible often refers to religious leaders as 'shepherds' and tasks them with caring for and protecting their 'flocks.'" He therefore believes that "providing for the physical safety of the Church—the body of Christ—is [his] religious act and duty as a pastor." He also believes that "the Bible calls on the Church—as members of a single family united in Jesus Christ—to love, serve, and protect one another." These beliefs are "shared by the Church."
Consistent with these religious beliefs, Pastor Spencer "regularly carried a concealed pistol" on Church campuses and allowed "security volunteers and other churchgoers with New York carry licenses" to do the same. In short, he "carried and allowed others to carry" concealed firearms at church "to ensure protection of the Church and its worshippers in case of violent confrontation" in accordance with their religious beliefs. He would have continued to do so "but for the enactment and enforcement" of the place of worship exclusion.
The State argues that the place of worship exclusion "does not foreclose Plaintiffs' ability to protect worshippers at [the] [C]hurch with armed individuals." The statute, it explains, "provides alternative mechanisms for Plaintiffs to secure the safety of their congregation" such as permitting certain categories of people—such as police officers and registered security guards—to carry at Church without violating the place of worship exclusion. This does not relieve the burden the new law places upon Plaintiffs' religious practices.
Pastor Spencer testified that members of the Church's security team of congregants protect the congregation pursuant to a calling from God. Hired outside security, Spencer believes, is not an adequate substitute because such individuals would be working for a paycheck—not acting pursuant to a spiritual calling. For this reason, he believes hired security would be far less effective than the organic security team at protecting the flock. But it does not ultimately matter whether he is correct that hired security—armed or not—would effectively protect the congregation. Pastor Spencer and Church members have a religious belief that they, themselves, must protect the flock. Indeed, religious beliefs "need not be acceptable, logical, consistent, or comprehensible to others in order to merit First Amendment protection."
In any event, the Church congregation includes—at most—only a handful of police officers or other individuals who might fit into a statutory exception. Even if these individuals were to volunteer to provide security at the Church, they could not conceivably protect the approximately 800 individuals who worship at the Church throughout each week—given that they have day jobs and "work a lot of hours." And to the extent the Church hired private security guards or police officers to protect the congregation, the financial burden would necessarily reduce the amount of ministry the Church could perform. This is precisely the sort of meddling in religious practices that courts find time and again violates the Free Exercise Clause. Further, like in Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, the State has not "questioned the sincerity" of Plaintiffs' religious beliefs….
The place of worship exclusion is neither neutral nor generally applicable and, therefore, must satisfy strict scrutiny…. Under its plain text, it restricts concealed carry in "any place of worship or religious observation." … [T]he place of worship exclusion is directed at religious activity. Careful drafting ensured that carrying of concealed weapons for religious reasons at place of worship is prohibited, while the same carrying in numerous other circumstances remains permissible. For these reasons, the place of worship exclusion is not a "neutral" law.
Nor is it generally applicable…. It specifically targets carrying of firearm motivated by religious beliefs while permitting concealed carry in relation to numerous secular activities….
The State asserts that it has a "purpose of the highest order in the protection of its citizens from gun violence." It explains that the statute prohibits carrying of firearms in locations that create "risks for gun violence" because they are "often busy, crowded, and dense locations where individuals are often seated or moving slowly." But other private property owners—such as proprietors of hair salons, retail stores, shopping malls, gas stations, office buildings, garages, and countless other private actors hosting secular activities—may decide for themselves whether to permit the carrying of firearms on their property. See N.Y. Pen. L. § 265.01-d(1) (prohibiting carry of firearm on private property only where property owner has not expressly permitted it).
In sum, on this record, Plaintiffs have demonstrated that the State permits countless other private actors hosting secular activities to do what a house of worship may not. The houses of worship exclusion is not a neutral law of general applicability….
Faced with Plaintiffs' showing that the houses of worship exclusion burdens their sincerely held religious practices pursuant to a policy that is not neutral or generally applicable, the State must demonstrate that the exclusion survives strict scrutiny—which is "the most rigorous of scrutiny." … To satisfy strict scrutiny, the government must show that "its restrictions on the plaintiff's protected rights serve a compelling interest and are narrowly tailored to that end." The standard is "not watered down[,] but really means what it says." Thus, a law that "targets religious conduct for distinctive treatment or advances legitimate governmental interests only against conduct with a religious motivation will survive strict scrutiny only in rare cases." …
Plaintiffs concede that the State "has a compelling interest in preventing violent crime." The State, however, fails to establish that the houses of worship exclusion is narrowly tailored to advance that interest. It argues that "in a sensitive location such as a religious institution, there is no narrower way to prevent" gun violence than "by ensuring that only trained individuals specifically tasked with protecting the community are armed." …
[But i]n an analogous case, the Supreme Court explained that "narrow tailoring requires the government to show that measures less restrictive of the First Amendment activity could not address its interest in reducing [gun violence]." Where "the government permits other activities to proceed with precautions, it must show that the religious exercise at issue is more dangerous than those activities even when the same precautions are applied. Otherwise, precautions that suffice for other activities suffice for religious exercise too."
The State allows a broad swath of private property owners to decide whether to permit the otherwise-lawful carrying of firearms on their property. There is no evident justification for the view that secular business owners are more qualified than religious leaders to determine whether to allow armed self-defense on their property. Moreover, a bad-intentioned armed person looking to attack worshippers will not be deterred in the by the fact that the State can now add unlawful carry in a "sensitive location" to the slew of criminal charges that would stem from such an attack. The houses of worship exclusion is therefore not narrowly tailored to advance the State's interest in protecting citizens from gun violence. The State fails to satisfy strict scrutiny.
In sum, Plaintiffs have demonstrated, on this record, that the State has burdened their sincere religious practice pursuant to a policy that is not "neutral" or "generally applicable," and the State fails to demonstrate that its course was justified by a compelling state interest and was narrowly tailored in pursuit of that interest. Plaintiffs are likely to prevail on the merits of their claims under the Free Exercise Clause….
That seems correct to me, given the facially discriminatory treatment of religious institutions. The court also concluded that the prohibition likely independently violated the Second Amendment, for reasons similar to those given in Judge Sinatra's earlier decision in Hardaway v. Nigrelli; and the court also concluded that the law violates the Establishment Clause (I'm more skeptical about that).
The court added:
ORDERED that this preliminary injunction is stayed pending appeal, consistent with Defendant Nigrelli's representation at the December 19, 2022, status conference that the stays entered by the Second Circuit in Antonyuk v. Hochul, No. 22-2908, and Hardaway v. Nigrelli, No. 222933 permit Plaintiffs to designate individuals otherwise authorized by law to carry a firearm to do so on church premises for the purposes of keeping the peace, without regard to whether they fall within any of the exceptions set forth in N.Y. Penal Law § 265.01e(3).
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"The fairy tale man in the sky commanded me to carry a concealed weapon."
I'm not sure which is worse -- the dumbasses who claim to believe something that silly, or the dumbasses who appease, flatter, and defend (with calls for snowflake-level special treatment) those superstitious dumbasses.
Imagine if Senator Cardin had his way, and hate speech was criminalized.
I can only guess whose post you're responding to because I've muted that poster. However you do make an argument for Senator Cardin's misguided opinion -- it would save much time for all who have to waste few seconds of their life muting the likes of the Bad Rev Cuckland.
(I suspect Rev Cuckland was the author the post you responded to. I only have a few users muted and (s)he/they was/were my first "mute". Before I muted him he engaged in more frequent and more vitriolic "hate speech" than the others did so he is the "usual suspect" in a case like this).
You don't need to guess. Click "Show username".
I finally muted him too. I have fallen to temptation and occasionally muted others, but not for long. Even the commenters I disagree with almost all the time still post useful information. But not the Rev. Reason logs me out every couple of weeks and I get an unexpected peek at his comments. There is never anything worthwhile.
Covering your eyes and ears won’t delay, let alone prevent, your replacement, clingers. I dance, or perhaps piss, on the graves of your deplorable political preferences.
Pretty sure you piss (sitting down)
On very, very rare occasions he's said something sensible about totally apolitical topics, like food. But the signal to noise ratio was just too low.
When he comments on things of substance I have agreed with him on two issues: qualified immunity and the drug war. He was still my first use of the mute button.
Imagine if Kirkland were in Iran and saying stuff like that about Islam....
with his record??? He'd be Sans the "Little Reverend"
but likely not nearly as disagreeable, there's a reason they neuter animals.
So you're an Atheist "Reverend"??? Makes Sense,
because a Surpreme Being who allowed Jerry S. to go unpunished for Decades without getting at least one of J-hovahs terrible swift swords (OK, in the case of Prostatic Hypertrophy, maybe not so "swift") makes no Sense,
Frank "Observant Non Observer"
I am not an atheist
Like Nixon Milhouse "Wasn't a Crook"
Battles between superstitious dumbasses are responsible for gigadeaths. A First Amendment detente between them helps reduce that.
Now let’s go one half-step further and include modern religions of political parties: large groups of ideas (memes) evolved to be seductive to attract members to seize power so they can force themselves on the unseduced. They just swapped out “for God” and put in “for the people”, and “I’ll make your life better after you die” for “I’ll make your life better five years down the road.”
The goal, and the problem, are the same in both: corruption and lowered freedom.
So sure. Get rid of religion in power, but secular ones as well.
They are populated by the same dumbasses.
Only the leftist with their bent worldview could perceive a church asking for equal treatment as instead asking for special treatment. Enjoy the ever-increasing pile of L's in your column, Rev.
Is anyone still pretending that these laws are aimed at the street thug and the gangbanger?
Anyone who is honest can admit that these laws are not about what the proponents claim and that the proponents are acting in bad faith.
The State's case - as reported by EV - appears to be pathetic to the point of parody. Which raises the question in this non-lawyer :
one reads of various Trump connected people getting sanctioned by courts, or being threatened with sanctions by courts, for arguing cases that the judge feels are completely pathetic.
How does this work if you are the respondent/defendant rather than the plaintiff ? I can see the policy argument for deterring plaintiffs from bringing pathetic cases, but if you're the respondent then you aren't the one bringing the case into court.
But can you still face sanctions if you decide to fight the case with your pathetic argument, rather than fess up and settle without troubling the courts ?
Courts tend to be more lenient with defendants for precisely the reason you identify — they weren't the ones who brought the matter to court in the first place — but, yes, the standards for sanctions apply to frivolous arguments by either side.
And if there's ever a shooting in your church, and someone gets shot, and is bleeding to death, you better not call 911, because if you do, you'll be discriminating against religious institutions, too.
(Hey, it makes just as much sense!)
Is that even a logical argument?
I am not religious, so I am less interested in the 1st Amendment aspect here as I am with Equal Protection. What compelling interest did New York have to single out churches in contrast to any other private property for restriction? I doubt that shootings are more common, likely, or deadly in a church.
There has been spree killers attracted to churches as assumed "gun free zones" who were stopped by designated church members serving as armed security. The MSM bury those stories.
The New York law would ban guns in churches and allow no choice on the part of the church (unlike stores and other venues in NY who could allow legal gun carriers).
No legal guns allowed in churches in New York? How that would deter spree killers is beyond my comprehesion.
Why would gun controllers want to deter spree killers? Spree killers are one of the primary excuses they use to advance their cause!
Because they don’t want people getting shot, you jackass.
C'mon (Man!) big fancy Lawyer and you don't own any guns??
Not one?? Protected by anyone who has one??
Well good for you, when you're crowned King you can (try) to take mine.
Frank "Good luck"
I didn't say that I agreed with them. I merely pointed out that, unlike Brett, I can understand that people can disagree with me in good faith.
"Can" and "always do" are different.
I've been fighting in the trenches in the gun control battle for decades. The disconnect between what gun controllers would do if they actually cared about human life, and what they actually do, is so huge and persistent that it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that at least the leadership are not motivated by a desire to save lives, just to take away guns.
It's not like it's something they can just say, obviously.
Now, the useful idiots? Yeah, they're sincere.
No, Brett. That's a disconnect between what they would do if they actually cared about human life and agreed with you about how these things would turn out. But they don't. (They believe that you are the one who doesn't care about human life, but only about guns.) Once again, you are incapable of understanding that people can disagree with you in good faith about what's a good idea.
If they actually did care about human life, they would lock up violent people, and not propose "zero cash bail," "second chance diversion programs" and other things that end up turning criminals lose.
If they actually did care about human life, they'd require that "sensitive places" be secured with metal detectors and armed guards. Signs don't deter criminals, and they're not intended to. They're intended to harass and inconvenience law abiding people.
No one disarming law-abiding citizens and their agents is looking to prevent people getting shot, you retard.
Seems to me like sanctimonious virtue signalling of the most hypocritical sort. "See, I care about religion. I am not anti-religion. Vote for me!"
In my view it is blatant discrimination against the practice of religion. Nut jobs trying to shoot up religious gatherings are well documented. So is the practice of armed congregants organizing to provide security. I know a few. The state has no reasonable basis for allowing carry in a private setting for a group to discuss great baseball players but class them as felons should they decide to pray for the soul of the great Tony Oliva.
Because a great deal of conduct also includes communication, right-wing politics has attempted for some time to overturn judicially laws which ban those kinds of conduct, on the grounds that the laws infringe the 1A. It looks like we are about to see a new spate of a similar kind, with 1A free exercise cited as legal basis for God knows what-all, but starting with attacks on gun regulations.
You cannot practice free exercise of religion if you cannot bring a gun into your church, or anyone else's? Really?
Government isn't allowed to make harsher rules for churches just because they're churches.
It doesn't matter whether the subject is guns or building codes or bathroom policies or anything else. Stacking the deck against religious practice violates the First Amendment.
Stephen,
Did you consider reading the ruling before coming here with your Tucker Carlson face?
Curse those evil right-wingers for
*checks notes*
protecting their constitutional rights.
First Amendment: It’s For More Than Just Stripping and Burning Flags
The question to ask yourself is why the State carved out this exception. Obviously they knew it would make places of worship a soft target for mass shooters.
The differing exceptions, waivable and not, may not have been carefully thought out in the rush to pass the bill.
The question to ask yourself is why the State carved out this exception. Obviously they knew it would make places of worship a soft target for mass shooters.
DaveM — That right there gets to the nub of the disagreement. It also illustrates the tendentious take the pro-gun faction brings to the issue. The essential irreducible basis for this controversy is a disagreement over public safety and gun prevalence, with gun advocates on one side, and would-be gun controllers on the other.
The very issue you take for granted—assertion that gun prevalence and permissive laws to encourage it make places safer, is not an established fact. It cannot be proved or disproved by any evidence now in existence. It is the question in controversy; it is not the refutation of arguments to the contrary.
Your opponents believe—with no better evidence than you have—that increased gun prevalence makes places more dangerous, and restrictive laws to discourage increased gun prevalence make places safer.
You have no more valid evidence to refute your opponents' presumption than they have to refute your presumption. Both sides can muster somewhat persuasive-looking arguments based on reason, guesswork, and anecdotes—none of which have power to answer a question which only a never-yet-conducted analytical review of extensive experience could address substantively.
As you undoubtedly know, would-be gun controllers advocate that kind of review. Gun advocates organize politically to prevent it.
So given that predicate, the question arises what legal basis there could be for a court to conclude that gun prevalence in churches contrary to existing law would keep them safer than can a gun ban in churches according to existing law. Given the sensitive places doctrine already standard in 2A jurisprudence, who can reasonably assert that a court has power to remake existing law which is already in accordance with that doctrine?
Of course, historically those 'sensitive places' were things like courthouses, which had armed guards already there and paid for by the state.
The expansion of sensitive places to 'wherever we feel like' skips over that step. Maybe the state should be required to post armed guards at state expense to any place deemed 'sensitive'.
So given that predicate, the question arises what legal basis there could be for a court to conclude that gun prevalence in churches contrary to existing law would keep them safer
Rights are not predicated on need. Least of all "need" determined by the govt. The whole of the BoR limits the power of government.
Rights pre-exist the constitution.
You're generally correct as far as that goes. But what you're missing is that you, as the gun control proponent, have the burden to establish conclusively you are correct in order to justify stripping people of their rights.
1)The issue isn't 'gun prevalence' - allowing a church to permit some of its congregation to carry, if the church chooses to do so, doesn't affect the number of guns at large.
2)We don't have to reason from first principles - we have empirical data that:
-there have been tragic shootings at churches
-there have been attempted mass shootings that were stopped by the church security teams
-there have, to date, been zero shootings by church security teams fumble fingering their guns/shooting innocents by mistake/etc.
The 'if we let churches run security teams the teams will be spraying the congregation with random gunfire all the time' argument just doesn't comport with the observed facts.
Absaroka, you have no empirical data. Systematic analysis has never been done about the questions you assert you know the answers to. I can answer every anecdote you mention with an anecdote to the contrary. For instance, we know as certainly as anything you have mentioned that in active shooter situations there have been many armed bystanders who did nothing. In some instances, armed bystanders numbering in the tens or hundreds have done nothing. Sketchy available evidence suggests to me that far more gun carriers at active shooter situations did nothing than ever intervened successfully.
I believe that gun prevalence itself must be counted a public danger, however unquantifiable at present. I think only the lunatic fringe of the pro-gun movement will deny that. Perhaps a small increment of safety gained by defensive armed interventions is being purchased at a much higher cost in injury and death from armed fecklessness and malign happenstance. Those instances would mostly occur at other times and other places than churches. My general point is that you have no better grasp of the proper response to that speculation than I do, or anyone else does.
Meanwhile sensitive places remains a recognized legal principle.
By the way, did I miss something? Are, "church security teams," a substantive part of the decision we are talking about? Or is it a decision to announce that anyone can carry a gun into any place of worship?
No, you can't.
No, there hasn't.
No, there isn't.
If you had evidence, you'd present it. If you were instead just full of your usual anti-2A bullshit, you'd make arguments like I've quoted above.
Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.
"we know as certainly as anything you have mentioned that in active shooter situations there have been many armed bystanders who did nothing. In some instances, armed bystanders numbering in the tens or hundreds have done nothing"
Is your solution to take away people's right to choose to meet lethal force with the same? Because some people, when given the choice, demurred?
For instance, we know as certainly as anything you have mentioned that in active shooter situations there have been many armed bystanders who did nothing. In some instances, armed bystanders numbering in the tens or hundreds have done nothing.
You just proved legal gun carriers do not elevate risk to the people. They only use a weapon when it can be used safely.
I believe that gun prevalence itself must be counted a public danger,
Instead of stripping law abiding citizens their enumerated rights, why dont we instead take guns away from criminals.
It is a fallacy to claim we do not know who the criminals are.
The most efficient method would be to do random sweeps of those residences that are getting govt assistance for basic living expenses. We can add to that list, all the people that have been accused of violent crimes. Just show up and shack them down.
Stop and frisk worked, and removed illegal weapons, intensify stop and frisk. The cops know who is committing the crimes. Use that information to search their homes, offices, and places they hang out.
The illegal guns taken will reach into the 6 figure range.
Most of that is just (very very) thinly veiled racism, but the rest is just empirically wrong; stop-and-frisk did not work.
but the rest is just empirically wrong; stop-and-frisk did not work.
Sure it worked.
It is clear the cops know where the illegal guns are. Just swoop in and take the guns.
If reducing gun deaths is the goal.
That has to work better than limiting the enumerated rights of law abiding citizens
My understanding was that stop-n-frisk found a lot of illegal guns, but to do that a lot of innocent people got put up against the wall and frisked. My sense is that the resulting alienation was likely counterproductive.
Mao famously said something like 'the people are the sea through which the guerilla swims, and in which invading armies drown'. Police want to be the ones swimming, not drowning, and acting like an invading army puts them on the wrong side of the population.
(but to address your larger point, I think you are right, and SL is wrong. He seems to think life will be better if we can melt down enough guns. I suppose he thinks that will disarm muggers. He is overlooking both that a mugger with a knife is as dangerous as one with a knife, and that disarming muggees is a lot easier than disarming muggers)
No, it didn't work. They found guns in only a tiny percentage of stops-and-frisk, and when the program ended because it was unconstitutional, crime continued to go down.
Unconstitutional? We are talking about safety...of CHILDREN. People will just have to accept some loss of freedom, to insure safety.
Crime stats are trailing indicators. But we aren't really talking about crime. Or safety. Are we?
"That has to work better than limiting the enumerated rights of law abiding citizens"
Like the Fourth Amendment rights of almost everyone they racially profiled in that program?
We get it - you don't care about the rights of people who get targeted by these programs because they're conveniently not your race. The fact that they were being stopped and searched unlawfully without any probable cause or individual suspicion just doesn't factor into your analysis of the costs and benefits.
Jason.
You arent paying attention. Rights are getting in the way of safety. I'm willing to sacrifice the feelings of criminals, and those criminal adjasent, in order to get crime down, and protect the children
I am paying attention.
You think everyone who had their rights violated was a criminal, because you’re an ignorant racist.
You are wrong.
You're missing that iowatwo is being sarcastic. His point is that if public safety overrides rights, then stop-and-frisk should be permitted.
Stop and frisk was clearly unconstitutional. The only reason it survived as long as it did was the prevalence of former prosecutors among judges and the tendency of judges to make brother-in-law type rulings favoring the government that seem pretty bad.
So I’m in favor of people of color and everyone else being protected by the 4th Amendment. Can you say the same about yourself and the 2nd?
bevis — Speaking for myself, I am in favor of everyone being protected alike by the 2A. The question under discussion ought not be whether the right is absolute, because only fools think that. The question ought to be how extensive the right should be. What should it empower? What should it exclude?
Framed that way, it ought to be clear even to vehement pro-gun types that if the right must be interpreted to empower everyone alike, that means empowering along with responsible gun owners, empowering the insane, empowering drug dependents, empowering career criminals, empowering gang bangers, empowering would-be terrorists, empowering volatile insurrectionists, and empowering the millions of Americans so feckless that if you put a gun in their hands they can’t be counted on to restrain themselves from shooting it just to give themselves a thrill.
Reason suggests that such an expansive predicate means somewhat limiting the extent of gun-rights empowerment each person gets, for the sake of public safety. Policy to arm bad people—which is an unavoidable part of insistence on 2A equality—is inherently dangerous. Gun rights absolutists never seem to give that any thought. The question how to deal with that danger cannot be ignored.
My first suggestion would be to treat the 2A to mean just what it says, as federal protection for a militia right, and to leave other kinds of armed empowerment to states. My second suggestion would be for states to protect by carefully limited empowerments a personal right of self-defense, a right to keep guns for hunting, a right to use arms under military discipline for militia purposes, and a right to practice shooting and compete at it.
In doing those things, states should make policy with an eye to minimal firearms empowerment overall, and specify various kinds of arms for various purposes, especially the militia purpose. States should authorize for each purpose the least potent kinds of arms which efficiently serve the particular purpose. But for the militia purpose, those would be very potent arms indeed, to be used and stored only under military discipline.
Given that the worst kinds of people must be empowered alike with the others, for the sake of public safety there should be an eye to limiting each person’s empowerment reasonably and equally. Public safety demands an objective to prevent an unbounded civilian arms race.
Finally, there should be no suggestion that firearms rights which are not specifically enumerated are somehow tacitly authorized anyway. There should be no protection for legally unauthorized rights to use guns to intimidate political practice, to bring down hypothetical rogue governments with stockpiled arms, or to turn armed civilians into a auxiliary vigilante means of law enforcement.
The right to armed self-defense should encompass personal self-defense, and extend to the protection of family members and bystanders. It should never be interpreted to be a group right to empower rivalries among armed factions, or to encourage and strengthen with arms the paranoid fantasies of would-be racists. Except in the case of militia service, group rights to coordinate use of civilian arms should be ruled out, and dealt with by law as criminal conspiracies.
PSA: sorry for the fractured reply above. I was experimenting - I think the software doesn't like you to post 'data' followed by a colon.
The statute was poorly worded. You can see it here: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/PEN/265.01-E
It does define "sensitive places" to include a large variety of public places, not just houses of worship. One of those listed is "any place of worship or religious observation." It also adds others that are plainly not "sensitive."
It would have made more sense, and more likely to pass Constitutional muster, if the State had outlawed carrying guns in any place where the public regularly gathers. That at least would not burden free-exercise, although it would still have 2d Amendment issues.
And the phrase "any place of worship or religious observation" is also very poorly thought out. So if I pray at home, or observe my religion at home (e.g, last week we lit candles for Chanukkah) then my home is a no-carry zone?
No. That's not how statutory interpretation works, and you know it.
It's not what was intended, but it fits the words. Just like Gorsuch's opinion in Bostock.
Oh, and here are two more locales defined as "sensitive places:"
So anytime you want to exercise your right to vote, or right to protest, you must give up your right to be armed. These have the same issue as the subsection challenged in this case.
Bored Lawyer — The right to peaceable assembly is a separately enumerated right. Intimidation with arms of would-be assemblers is not peaceable. The question whether arms brought to assemblies creates intimidation is not for arms wielders to decide.
A case of constitutional rights in conflict is not alike with the other issues under discussion.
As of today, half of the states do not require a permit to carry in public. This increase in "constitutional carry" states must be bitter news for clingers opposed to the march of history.
AAA — The notion that such a thing as a, "march of history," could exist is not something anyone should seriously entertain.
Who each day struggles to remind himself of the virtues of becoming seriously ill in second semester of law school and thus also unable to complete grad school in even less demanding fields, such as journalism, which was kindergarten level. One benefit is that I only have to deal with legal sophistry and falsehood when I choose to. Enough bragging and self-congratulating ---
Legal opinion, even that of Judges, does not rise to the constitutionality and credibility of the most irrelevant dictum. A law so poorly elucidated to need interpretation ought to be recognized as unenforceable, indeed, gibberish. Gibberish is completely uninterpretable and creates no cause of action whatsoever, thus those who challenge it must be affirmed.
It is not a fallacy, that claim we do not know where the criminals are, but simply a falsehood. One can find dozens of maps on the internet and in criminology journals that locate almost exactly where the crimes are committed. The exact addresses of those and the perpetrators are known to police and prosecutors. Most criminals live within walking distance of their crimes. although their answer to that is simple: abscond. FTA.
As everyone with any significant legal education already knows, gun control would be coercion, entrapment, self-incrimination, prosecutorial misconduct, and denial of most criminal rights and procedures under both common law and Constitution if applied to actual criminals rather than being plea-bargained away. The authors and promoters of GCA-68 knew demmed will it was unconstitutional, which is why they denied that it was registration and licensing because the license applications and registration forms were called the property of the dealer for being left in his/her/etc temporary custody. For those reasons, and for the fact that gun control is merely bigotry based on myth and falsehood, contrary to every constitutional law and principle that apply to it, it should be found to be not just unconstitutionally vague and unenforceable, but completely discriminatory and counterproductive. The facts support this, which explains the current situation and debate completely. The problem is that there is no general constitutional principle that says that laws cannot be bigoted, discriminatory, contradictory, or insane. Should be, just another grave error made by the Convention. Yes, Hamilton lied, though Adams was very principled, doggone him.
The person who figures out how to change this despite the forces allied against doing so, which are mainly pseudo-religious or psychopathological, will become the greatest constitutional lawyer ever known, because it will solve much more than gun control.
Judges take oaths to support and defend the Constitution. Any of you hold up your hands and swear to similar principles? That doesn't make your opinions constitutional principles.
Do rival gangs typically have shootouts on churches?
Or is the idea to have plainclothes cops sitting in the pews, ready to nab any gangbanger packing heat?
Understood. But how will a law that law abiding citizens obey stop someone planning on murdering?
Police stations are pretty crowded. Are there many spree killings there?
I dislike backward, bigoted right-wingers and am glad they have lost to better Americans in the culture war. I am glad modern, successful communities; our strongest research and teaching institutions, which are reason-based; and the liberal- libertarian mainstream and its cultural, scientific, and political institutions, have prevailed and will continue to win at the American marketplace of ideas. I celebrate our national progress, shaped against the wishes and efforts of Republicans, racists, conservatives, gay-bashers, Federalist Society members, misogynists, antisemites, theocrats, xenophobes, and the deplorable, obsolete, vanquished like.
Maybe not at churches, but in Chicago "Funeral Shootings" are a real thing. When a Gang member is being buried with an elaborate funeral (a'la the Al Capone era with 3 flower cars, 5 stretch limos and a mile long cortege) it's not unusual for a rival gang to hit either the wake, or ambush the funeral procession on the way to one of the Cemeteries on 111th street. Cemetery ambushes have also occurred.
I am very satisfied that our freedom of speech allows us all to bathe in the afterglow of the self-righteous back-patting that the Rev leaves in his wake when he's on a tear.
When you can see them coming from a distance, it's much better.
Rev's just got his PA Prison-issue panties in a wad because Stuttering John Fetterman didn't commute his sentence.
Frank
For the most part it's nobody: You're incredibly unlikely to be shot in a church.