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En Banc Eleventh Circuit Rejects Legal Challenge to School District's Bathroom Policy
The Appeals Panel Rejects a Trangender Student's Bid to Use Bathroom Corresponding to the Student's Gender Identity Instead of Biological Sex.
Today the en banc U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit rejected a transgender student's statutory and constitutional challenge to a school-district policy barring students from using single-sex bathrooms that do not correspond with the student's biological sex (or, as it appears from the facts of the case, the student's sex when initially enrolled). Specifically, the court concluded that the policy neither violates the Equal Protection Clause nor the requirements of Title IX. Insofar as this decision disagrees with that of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit in G.G. v. Gloucester County, it would seem a strong candidate for certiorari—assuming that Adams seeks Supreme Court review.
The court split 7-4. Judge Lagoa wrote the majority opinion in Adams v. School Board of St. Johns County, joined by Chief Judge Bill Pryor and Judges Newsom, Branch, Grant, Luck, and Brasher. Judge Lagoa also wrote a separate concurring opinion with additional views. Judges Wilson, Jordan, Rosenbaum, and Jill Pryor dissented, each writing an opinion. (Judges Wilson and Rosenbaum joined Judge Jordan's dissent, and Judge Rosenbaum joined Judge Pryor's dissent in part.) The opinions together span 150 pages.
Excerpts from some of the opinions are below the jump.
Judge Lagoa's opinion for the Court begins:
This case involves the unremarkable—and nearly universal—practice of separating school bathrooms based on biological sex. This appeal requires us to determine whether separating the use of male and female bathrooms in the public schools based on a student's biological sex violates (1) the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, U.S. Const. amend. XIV, § 1, and (2) Title IX of the Education Amendments Act of 1972, 20 U.S.C. § 1681 et seq. We hold that it does not—separating school bathrooms based on biological sex passes constitutional muster and comports with Title IX.
Here is a portion of the analysis:
On appeal, Adams argues that the School Board's bathroom policy violates both the Equal Protection Clause and Title IX. At its core, Adams's claim is relatively straightforward. According to Adams, the School Board's bathroom policy facially discriminates between males and females. Adams, who identifies as a male, argues that the policy violates Adams's rights because, as a transgender student, Adams cannot use the bathroom that corresponds to the sex with which Adams identifies. Which is to say, Adams argues that by facially discriminating between the two sexes, the School Board's bathroom policy also necessarily discriminates against transgender students. We disagree with Adams's theory that separation of bathrooms on the basis of biological sex necessarily discriminates against transgender students.
Indeed, when we apply first principles of constitutional and statutory interpretation, this appeal largely resolves itself. The Equal Protection Clause claim must fail because, as to the sex discrimination claim, the bathroom policy clears the hurdle of intermediate scrutiny and because the bathroom policy does not discriminate against transgender students. The Title IX claim must fail because Title IX allows schools to separate bathrooms by biological sex. We now begin our full analysis with the Equal Protection Clause and end with Title IX.
From the Equal Proection discussion:
because the policy that Adams challenges classifies on the basis of biological sex, it is subject to intermediate scrutiny. To satisfy intermediate scrutiny, the bathroom policy must (1) advance an important governmental objective and (2) be substantially related to that objective. Miss. Univ. for Women, 458 U.S. at 724. The bathroom policy clears both hurdles because the policy advances the important governmental objective of protecting students' privacy in school bathrooms and does so in a manner substantially related to that objective. . . .
Intermediate scrutiny is satisfied when a policy "has a close and substantial bearing on" the governmental objective in question. Nguyen, 533 U.S. at 70. The School Board's bathroom policy is clearly related to—indeed, is almost a mirror of—its objective of protecting the privacy interests of students to use the bathroom away from the opposite sex and to shield their bodies from the opposite sex in the bathroom, which, like a locker room or shower facility, is one of the spaces in a school where such bodily exposure is most likely to occur. Therefore, the School Board's bathroom policy satisfies intermediate scrutiny. . . .
And from the TItle IX discussion:
commensurate with the plain and ordinary meaning of "sex" in 1972, Title IX allows schools to provide separate bathrooms on the basis of biological sex. That is exactly what the School Board has done in this case; it has provided separate bathrooms for each of the biological sexes. And to accommodate transgender students, the School Board has provided single-stall, sex-neutral bathrooms, which Title IX neither requires nor prohibits. Nothing about this bathroom policy violates Title IX. Moreover, under the Spending Clause's clear-statement rule, the term "sex," as used within Title IX, must unambiguously mean something other than biological sex—which it does not—in order to conclude that the School Board violated Title IX. The district court's contrary conclusion is not supported by the plain and ordinary meaning of the word "sex" and provides ample support for subsequent litigants to transform schools' living facilities, locker rooms, showers, and sports teams into sex-neutral areas and activities. Whether Title IX should be amended to equate "gender identity" and "transgender status" with "sex" should be left to Congress—not the courts.
Judge Lagoa's separate concurrence begins as follows:
I concur fully in the majority opinion's determination that the School Board of St. Johns County's unremarkable bathroom policy neither violates the Equal Protection Clause nor Title IX. I write separately to discuss the effect that a departure from a biological understanding of "sex" under Title IX—i.e., equating "sex" to "gender identity" or "transgender status"—would have on girls' and women's rights and sports. . . .
Affirming the district court's order and adopting Adams's definition of "sex" under Title IX to include "gender identity" or "transgender status" would have had repercussions far beyond the bathroom door. There simply is no limiting principle to cabin that definition of "sex" to the regulatory carve-out for bathrooms under Title IX, as opposed to the regulatory carve-out for sports or, for that matter, to the statutory and regulatory carve-outs for living facilities, showers, and locker rooms. And a definition of "sex" beyond "biological sex" would not only cut against the vast weight of drafting-era dictionary definitions and the Spending Clause's clear-statement rule but would also force female student athletes "to compete against students who have a very significant biological advantage, including students who have the size and strength of a male but identify as female." Id. at 1779–80. Such a proposition—i.e., commingling both biological sexes in the realm of female athletics—would "threaten[] to undermine one of [Title IX's] major achievements, giving young women an equal opportunity to participate in sports." Id. at 1779.
Judge Jordan's dissent (joined by Judges Rosenbaum and Wilson) begins:
Two legal propositions in this case are undisputed. The first is that the School Board's unwritten bathroom policy regulates on the basis of gender. The second is that policy, as a gender-based regulation, must satisfy intermediate scrutiny. Given these two propositions, the evidentiary record, and district court's factual findings, the School Board cannot justify its bathroom policy under the Equal Protection Clause of Fourteenth Amendment.
The School Board did not allow Drew Adams, a transgender student, to use the boys' bathroom. As explained below, however, the School Board's policy allows a transgender student just like Drew to use the boys' bathroom if he enrolls after transition with documents listing him as male. Because such a student poses the same claimed safety and privacy concerns as Drew, the School Board's bathroom policy can only be justified by administrative convenience. And when intermediate scrutiny applies, administrative convenience is an insufficient justification for a gender-based classification.
Judge Wilson's dissent begins:
I concur fully with Judge Jordan's analysis and agree that we should analyze the bathroom policy as a gender-based classification. I write separately, with his analysis in mind, to add that even accepting the Majority's argument that the relevant factor is an individual's biological sex, the policy is still discriminatory, and therefore we must engage in a robust Title IX and Equal Protection analysis.
Under the Majority's rationale, the bathroom policy distinguishes between boys and girls on the basis of biological sex—"which the School Board determines by reference to various documents, including birth certificates, that students submit when they first enroll in the School District." Maj. Op. at 4. Because the policy uses these same indicia for all students, according to the Majority, the policy is not discriminatory. See Maj. Op. at 31. Underlying this sex-assigned-at-matriculation bathroom policy, however, is the presumption that biological sex is accurately determinable at birth and that it is a static or permanent biological determination. In other words, the policy presumes it does not need to accept amended documentation because a student's sex does not change. This presumption is both medically and scientifically flawed. After considering a more scientific and medical perspective on biological sex, it is clear that the bathroom policy's refusal to accept updated medical documentation is discriminatory on the basis of sex.
Judge Jill Pryor's dissent, joined by Judge Rosenbaum in part, begins:
Each time teenager Andrew Adams needed to use the bathroom at his school, Allen D. Nease High School, he was forced to endure a stigmatizing and humiliating walk of shame—past the boys' bathrooms and into a single-stall "gender neutral" bathroom. The experience left him feeling unworthy, like "something that needs to be put away." The reason he was prevented from using the boys' bathroom like other boys? He is a transgender boy.
Seeking to be treated as equal to his cisgender boy classmates, Adams sued, arguing that his assignment to the gender neutral bathrooms and not to the boys' bathrooms violated the promise of the Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection Clause. He prevailed in the district court, and a panel of this Court, of which I was a member, affirmed. Today, a majority of my colleagues labels Adams as unfit for equal protection based on his transgender status.
To start, the majority opinion simply declares—without any basis—that a person's "biological sex" is comprised solely of chromosomal structure and birth-assigned sex. So, the majority opinion concludes, a person's gender identity has no bearing on this case about equal protection for a transgender boy. The majority opinion does so in disregard of the record evidence—evidence the majority does not contest—which demonstrates that gender identity is an immutable, biological component of a person's sex.
With the role of gender identity in determining biological sex thus obscured, the majority opinion next focuses on the wrong question: the legality of separating bathrooms by sex. Adams has consistently agreed throughout the pendency of this case—in the district court, on appeal, and during these en banc proceedings—that sex-separated bathrooms are lawful. He has never challenged the School District's policy of having one set of bathrooms for girls and another set of bathrooms for boys. In fact, Adams's case logically depends upon the existence of sex-separated bathrooms. He—a transgender boy—wanted to use the boys' restrooms at Nease High School and sought an injunction that would allow him to use the boys' restrooms.
When the majority opinion reaches Adams's equal protection claim, these errors permeate its analysis. So does another: the majority overlooks that the School District failed to carry its evidentiary burden at trial. Everyone agrees that heightened scrutiny applies. The School District therefore bore the evidentiary burden of demonstrating a substantial relationship between its bathroom policy and its asserted governmental interests. Yet the School District offered no evidence to establish that relationship.
Next, the majority opinion rejects Adams's Title IX claim. Here, too, the majority opinion errs. Even accepting the majority opinion's premise—that "sex" in Title IX refers to what it calls a "biological" understanding of sex—the biological markers of Adams's sex were but-for causes of his discriminatory exclusion from the boys' restrooms at Nease High School. Title IX's statutory and regulatory carveouts do not speak to the issue we face here: the School District's categorical assignment of transgender students to sex-separated restrooms at school based on the School District's discriminatory notions of what "sex" means.
Finally, the majority opinion depicts a cascade of consequences flowing from the mistaken idea that a ruling for Adams will mean the end of sex-separated bathrooms, locker rooms, and sports. But ruling for Adams would not threaten any of these things, particularly if, as I urge here, the ruling was based on the true nature of Adams's challenge and the School District's evidentiary failures at trial.
In sum, the majority opinion reverses the district court without addressing the question presented, without concluding that a single factual finding is clearly erroneous, without discussing any of the unrebutted expert testimony, and without putting the School District to its evidentiary burden. I respectfully dissent.
Judge Rosenbaum's dissent begins:
My colleagues Judge Jill Pryor and Judge Jordan have written excellent dissents explaining why the district court's order here should be affirmed. I join Judge Jordan's dissent in its entirety and Judge Jill Pryor's dissent's equal-protection analysis. I write separately only to emphasize one point that Judge Jill Pryor already persuasively makes: the Majority Opinion's misplaced suggestions that affirming the district court's order on equal-protection grounds would require courts in this Circuit to find that all challenges involving restrooms, locker rooms, and changing facilities must necessarily be upheld are wrong.
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Adams did not even allege that biological females who identify as girls get to use restrooms reserved for either sex. As such, Adams was treated exactly the same as all biological females, and was not discriminated against on the basis of transgender status.
Saying “biological female” is as absurd as saying “biological elk” or "mineralogical quartzite".
“To start, the majority opinion simply declares—without any basis—that a person's "biological sex" is comprised solely of chro-mosomal structure and birth-assigned sex.”
Without any basis?
Yeah, in the vast majority of cases the DNA is pretty unambiguous on that issue.
"DNA"???
is that a new term for "Penis" and/or "Vagina"??
Judge Wilson is just wrong here. Sex and gender are not the same thing. A person's biological sex doesn't change. Their gender may. But their sex does not, and can be determined accurately at birth.
Get an education. Start with science.
Or remain a stale- and ugly-thinking clinger and culture war loser. Until replacement.
Sounds like a certain disgraced Football Coach is a little umm,
"Bitter"??? that Stuttering John Fetterman didn't sign his Commutation..... Brighten up Jerry, you've got until Midnight!
Unlike you, I did not flunk sex ed.
The Science(tm) says humans can change their biological sex by the power of thought alone!
Sincerely,
Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland
Are there two Pryors on the 11 Circuit court?
Yes, William Pryor (dark side) and Jill Pryor (forces of light).
Interesting. I wonder if/how they are related.
Astonishingly all 7 judges in the majority were Republican appointees, and all 4 dissenters were Democrat appointees.
Who wants to tell the Chief Justice ?
A purely ideological decision.
Almost the exact words could be used by either side.
From a dissent:
Yes, the majority could have said ...
Exactly so.
The special people have a fundamental right to impose stigma and humiliation on others in order to avoid stigma and humiliation themselves. Didn’t you know?
And when something unwelcome happens to one of the non-special people, it’s open season to mock and bully him or her. When the same thing happens to one of the special people it's a hate crime.
'it’s open season to mock and bully him or her'
Are you mad because you can't bully and mock a vulnerable minority group without people thinking you're assholes?
Bullying people is bad. Instead of bad behavior directed toward everyone you think is fair game and protection for the special people, just stop it altogether and be against it in all cases.
Yes, bullying people is bad, that's why we call people who do it assholes. The assholes get mad and think this is unfair and this is the REAL bullying and want to know what's so SPECIAL about the people they were bullying, all just typical bully behaviour.
That’s a lot of gobbledygook. Just stop behaving badly instead of trying to justify it.
How does this square with Bostock?
I don't think this decision conflicts with Bostock.
Bostock established that if a person is fired, but would not have been had they been the opposite biological sex, then there is Title VII discrimination. Thus, firing a (biological-male) transgender woman violates Title VII because they would not have been fired had they been a biological woman.
But in this case, all biological girls are denied using the boys bathroom. If we apply Bostock without further thought, we would conclude there is sex discrimination against all biological girls. Yet, we know that isn't the case.
I think Adams should win her case (detailed in another comment), but not because of Bostock.
“if a person is fired, but would not have been had they been the opposite biological sex, then there is Title VII discrimination. Thus, firing a (biological-male) transgender woman violates Title VII because they would not have been fired had they been a biological woman.”
Taking this, if a girl student is punished for using the boys’ bathroom, but would not have been had she been a boy, then there is Title VII discrimination. Thus, punishing a (biological-girl) transgender boy violates Title VII because he would not have been punished had he been a biological boy.
In other words, under Bostock’s reasoning, the biological girl/transgender boy is being discriminated against on the basis of sex because she/he is being told she/he can’t do something biological boys can do, i.e., use the boy’s restroom. Her biological sex is the very thing that prevents her/him from doing something.
Think of it this way: Steve works at Company. Steve was born a man, but now says he’s a woman. However, with one exception, Steve is the same in every way. “She” has the same name, dresses the same, acts and talks the same, etc. The only thing Steve does differently is use the women’s bathroom. Steve is then fired by Company and sues. Under Bostock’s reasoning there has been a Title VII violation because, as you say, Steve “would not have been fired had they been a biological woman.”
The company decision to fire Bostock was not subject to "intermediate scrutiny" like this bathroom policy, but to stricter scrutiny. (Not "strict scrutiny" per se because that, like intermediate scrutiny and rational-basis review, are only applied to government decisions.)
I withdraw that comment.
But the line of logic presented by Area Man proves too much: Under it, any male who wishes to use a women's restroom, but is not permitted to, is being discriminated against on the basis of sex because he would be allowed to use that restroom if he was a biological female. Transgender status is not relevant.
I guess that’s my point. It’s why I think Bostock was wrongly decided. But, as MatthewSlyfield noted below, and what I wasn’t aware of earlier, Title VII rules wouldn’t apply in this case’s context because Title IX apparently exempts bathrooms. In other words, whatever the merits or demerits of Bostock, it probably isn’t relevant here.
"Taking this, if a girl student is punished for using the boys’ bathroom, but would not have been had she been a boy, then there is Title VII discrimination. Thus, punishing a (biological-girl) transgender boy violates Title VII because he would not have been punished had he been a biological boy."
The problem with that statement is that this is not covered by Title VII, it falls under Title IX, and Title IX explicitly authorizes sex segregated bathrooms.
That’s an excellent point that I was not aware of.
Indeed. But why is something that clearly distinguishes on the basis of (biological) sex not impermissibly discriminate on the basis of sex?
As I see it, the separate bathroom policy passes muster because it advances the school’s interests in privacy and safety. That is, an intermediate-scrutiny like analysis justifies the policy under Title IX. However, those interests aren’t advanced when applied to transgender students, and thus Title IX is violated in those applications.
A strong case can be made that absolutely nothing in Title IX applies to transgender anything.
Please make that argument while specifically countering mine.
Title IX, by its own words, allows sex segregated restrooms.
Title IX doesn't mention bathrooms. It's agency interpretation that permits sex-segregated bathrooms.
Why does it advance the school's interests in regards to privacy and safety when applied to cisgender, but not transgender students?
Transgender students are just as capable of sexual assault as cisgender students.
It's already well established in law that Title VII does NOT require pretending that men and women are interchangeable. They're only required to be treated interchangeably in areas where their sex is irrelevant to the case at hand.
I’m surprised people persist with the ridiculous “sex assigned at birth” stuff.
Having a sense of gender that doesn’t corresponded to your sex as recorded at birth doesn’t necessarily make you transgender. If your sex is recorded incorrectly at birth, that’s just a clerical error.
Just like if your race in incorrectly marked as "black", it doesn't make you black.
Just like if your race in incorrectly marked as “black”, it doesn’t make you black.
What if someone is marked as white because they have a skin tone typical of European ancestry? But then it is discovered later in life that that they have multiple Black forebears and a genetic profile closer to African Americans than Americans of European descent? They just happen to end up with paler skin than most that have a similar background. Would it have been a clerical error to call them white? Would it be justifiable for that person to consider themselves (to identify as) Black instead? How should that person be treated by laws aimed at addressing discrimination?
Was Barack Obama white or black? I forget which blood is more powerful.
Looked at the options and chose Black because it would be easier to deflect any criticisms of his shortcomings as being based on racism.
Bumble, I wonder if you realize that the vast majority of people who read this blog do not comment, they are practitioners, You seen to think this is a high school chat room where you can chime in with one sentence insults.
Don't you have any dignity?
Please accept my Bumble humble apologies for offending your exulted opinion of yourself and any "practitioners" who may have been offended.
In my defense (not that I need one), my comment was in response to alphabet's one sentence question. Not sure who you think might be insulted, but I really don't care and don't need your approval to comment as I wish.
Maybe one of the Great Replacement experts here will take a pass at that question.
Clearly, he grew up with white privilege
"What if someone is marked as white because they have a skin tone typical of European ancestry? But then it is discovered later in life that that they have multiple Black forebears and a genetic profile closer to African Americans than Americans of European descent? They just happen to end up with paler skin than most that have a similar background."
Then they're a light-skinned person with black ancestors. And that would be the case regardless of what it said on their birth certificate.
Given US history, an enlightened attitude, to be sure, but whenever it comes up in discussion, I'm reminded of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Francis_White
'White used his appearance to increase his effectiveness in conducting investigations of lynchings and race riots in the American South. He could "pass" and talk to white people as one of them, but he could talk to black people as one of them and identified with them. Such work was dangerous: "Through 1927 White would investigate 41 lynchings, 8 race riots, and two cases of widespread peonage, risking his life repeatedly in the backwaters of Florida, the piney woods of Georgia, and in the cotton fields of Arkansas."[16] In his autobiography, A Man Called White, he dedicates an entire chapter to a time when he almost joined the Ku Klux Klan undercover.'
This all shows that the race concept as now used in the US is BS.
Judge Jordan : “The first Two legal propositions in this case are undisputed. The first is that the School Board's unwritten bathroom policy regulates on the basis of gender.
Olympic level gaslighting. Where does the majority agree that the policy regulates on the basis of gender ? The majority says it regulates on the basis of sex. Which happens to be correct (ie a male sex child gets to use the boy’s bathroom whether he identifies as male gender or female gender, and so mutatis mutandis for girls.) But even if it wasn’t correct, it’s not undisputed.
Judge Wilson :
….presumption that biological sex is accurately determinable at birth and that it is a static or permanent biological determination. In other words, the policy presumes it does not need to accept amended documentation because a student's sex does not change.
The presumption is correct. Biological sex can indeed be accurately determined (ie identified) at birth and it is a static biological fact that doesn’t change (in humans – we are not talking clown fish.)
It is true that the methods used by doctors to identify sex at birth are – quite reasonably - not those that can identify sex at birth with perfect accuracy. Very occasionally they make mistakes because the methods used are not perfectly accurate. But if and when it is discovered, say at puberty, that someone whose sex was identified at birth as female, is in fact male, that doesn’t mean that their sex has changed. It just means that the docs got their identification wrong at birth. (It should be noted that the docs armory of diagnostic tools expands as technology advances.)
Judge Wilson’s ludicrous analysis is akin to saying that when a birdwatcher identifies what he thinks is a rook, if on closer inspection it turns out to be a crow, then we must conclude that it has changed from being a rook into a crow in the interim.
Judge Pryor :
“The reason he was prevented from using the boys' bathroom like other boys? He is a transgender boy.”
Or more directly, the reason is that “he” is not a boy, “he” is a girl. That’s why “he” is taking drugs to suppress “his” periods – which is not something that actual boys have to worry about.
These people are nuts.
"Where does the majority agree that the policy regulates on the basis of gender ? "
It is all rather simple.If you have a dick, use the boys' room.
If you don't have a dick, use the girls' room.
Occam's razor.
Don't use that to remove the dick.
I'm not sure I have all of the necessary facts.
As a practical matter, many school-aged students who possess a penis become involuntarily sexually aroused upon seeing external vulvalar structures. The school district seems to have a reasonable interest in preventing undue involuntary sexual arousal of its students. So, first, does Adams have external vulvalar structures of any sort? If Adams still has external vulvalar structures -- that is, if she has "transitioned" only within her own fantasies and not by the primary sexual characteristics of her body -- it would seem foolish to demand others change behavior based on such fantasy.
Consider, too, that many school-aged students who possess a penis become involuntarily sexually aroused upon seeing another penis; likewise, many school-aged students who have external vulvalar structures become involuntarily sexually aroused upon seeing other external vulvalar structures. Specifically, if Adams was simply a homosexual female (rather than a "transitioning" whatever), would she be permitted to expose herself in the male bathrooms so that _she_ would not become aroused by seeing other females? If Adams was a homosexual male, would he be permitted to expose himself in the female bathrooms so that _he_ would not become aroused by seeing other males?
The argument here seems that a private bathroom is insufficient accommodation for one's own uniqueness -- that the totality of the world must modify its characteristics and kowtow to the whims of a "special one." What arrogance!
How often we forget that Brutus and Cassius wrongly thought they would be remembered as liberators, not traitors: "So often shall the knot of us be called \ The men that gave their country liberty."
Wow, that’s a lot of time spent thinking about teenagers’ genitalia. Do you need professional help hun?
Don't be so homophobic.
'If Adams was a homosexual male, would he be permitted to expose himself in the female bathrooms so that _he_ would not become aroused by seeing other males?'
It seems to me that if there's a problem with individual students inappropriately exposing themseves to others in bathrooms (as opposed to inadvertantly) then that needs to be dealt with, but it has nothing to do with the gender of other students.
'The argument here seems that a private bathroom is insufficient accommodation for one’s own uniqueness — that the totality of the world must modify its characteristics and kowtow to the whims of a “special one.” What arrogance!'
So much for the vaunted individualism of these here United States.
How is it "individualism" to demand everybody play along with your delusions?
You're free to do what you want. I'm free to not play along.
You're actually working very hard to ensure that they are not 'free to do what they want.'
We were told that sex and gender are not the same thing. Now, according to the dissents, we are assured that sex and gender are interchangeable.
This whole “identify as” business is just absurd. Some things are just objectively true or not, regardless of how someone professes to “identify.”
That there were four votes on a U.S. circuit court of appeals to go along with obvious lies is frightening.
Do you apply the same standard to claims involving religion or superstition?
If not, you might be a clinger.
Yes, I apply the same standard to all claims regardless of origin. I believe in evidence-based decision-making and take a critical and balanced stance when evaluating any information presented to me. I'm open to hearing various perspectives but also believe in drawing conclusions based on facts, not opinions or sentiments. This means that whether it involves religion, superstition or any other area, I take the time to form an informed judgment based on data and facts rather than assumptions.
What is your informed judgment on whether people who claim an invisible man in the sky establishes rules concerning treatment of gays, consumption of cheeseburgers and shrimp cocktails, acceptance of vaccinations, prescribing certain medicines, and the like? How about people who expect a Rapture to cure environmental problems, believe a supernatural force commands them not to use modern conveniences on certain days, insist they are divinely commanded to only those who subscribe to the same flavor of superstition, or contend they must mutilate newborn infants to flatter a supernatural being?
Are those people completely full of shit, or are there “data and facts” that support those assertions? What is the “evidence-based” decision?
I understand that many people believe in Jesus and follow his teachings as a source of guidance and inspiration in their lives. According to the teachings of Jesus, it is important to love and respect one another, to care for the poor and the marginalized, and to seek justice and righteousness. Jesus also taught that it is important to follow the commandments of God and to live a life of faith and obedience.
Ultimately, it is up to each individual to decide what they believe and how they choose to live their lives. I hope that we can all respect one another's beliefs and practices, and that we can work together to build a more loving and compassionate world for all.
Jesus apparently told a couple of governors to mislead desperate, poor, vulnerable migrants (including children, send them by bus to freezing locations in t-shirts without coordinating with the appropriate authorities and parade that cruelty for political gain among low-grade bigots.
That Jesus also tells millions of people to be gay-bashing, misogynistic, xenophobic, Islamophobic, antisemitic bigots; presides over churches that wallow in revolting opulence and dodge taxes while people sleep in streets and children go hungry; and offers a support group for mistreated children of his ostensibly celibate religious leaders (50,000, reportedly).
That Jesus also heads a church that engages in the systematic, widespread facilitation and concealment of the sexual abuse of children to preserve the religion's real estate, jewels, personnel, and investments.
That Jesus -- the Jesus of the religious right -- is a paltry, illusory piece of shit.
And you never got around to mentioning any evidence, reason, facts, or data.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your right-wing fairy tales, bigotry, ignorance, and backwardness could carry anyone in modern and improving-against-your-wishes America.
'Some things are just objectively true or not'
No, you just want them to be, and for most people they are, but for some reason it is has become a political and social project of the right to crush those for whom it isn't.
Is it objectively true that nothing is objectively true?
I object to that truth!
No, the things you think are objectively true and fixed aren't always so, especially at the margins.
Perhaps a creative school district should re-label all its bathrooms "has a penis" or "has a vagina" (or something of the sort). So they are explicitly based on biological characteristics.
Thus, the bathrooms are assigned independent of "gender".
The 'don't sexualise our kids' crowd's ongoing obsessed with children's genetalia. You lot WILL impose invasive inspections first as a deterrence but then as standard for children's own 'protection' if allowed.
"The ‘don’t sexualise our kids’ crowd’s ongoing obsessed with children’s genetalia."
As opposed to the other side, who is so indifferent that they's just as soon have them removed.
Ah yes, the great sin of being indifferent to other people's genetalia, including children's. The great believers in individual freedom and personal responsibility love to impose and enforce conformity to their perceived norms.
The perceived norm being not mutilating children, sure.
Trying to normalise scaremongering about mutilating children as part of forcing conformity and demonising a minority.
Meh. You guys hate mutilating children when brown people do it.
Racists.
FGM is a serious problem that ruins young girl’s lives but to you it’s a disposable bit of dishonest rhetoric to fling at your real target – young trans people getting access to appropriate health care.
FGM is bad and ruins young girl's lives, but chopping their tits off doesn't!
Sincerely,
Nige the Manchurian
lol
FGM is incredibly bad, health care for young trans people is good and essential. Not that difficult.
When they do it it's bad...
Is it sinking in yet? The difference between bad and good?
Whether you approve of it? Seems to be the only distinction you care about.
It’s unsurprising that you guys invoke scaremongering ‘mutilation’ language in relation to careful, prolonged, entirely consensual and informed medical care that has been shown to overwhelmingly benefit the people who avail of it, but a widespread non-medical, non-consensual actual mutilation that serves no purpose and harms untold numbers of young girls is just a throwaway false equivalence gambit. Which is how we know this isn’t really about ‘mutilating’ children, any more than pizzagate was about actual child abuse.
Calling it "medical care" is question begging, and in fact, there is little good evidence that it is beneficial. (Let alone "overwhelmingly" so.)
There's something like a 0.1% or 0.01% regret rate for the surgery, which is significantly less than most other surgeries.
1) Pretty sure you made those numbers up.
2) Surgery is not the only form of so-called gender affirming care out there. Although the weirdos of the right keep focusing on "mutilation," that's of course the rarest form of such treatment. Especially for minors.
3) Regret rate isn't the test for benefit; whether it improves patients' (presumably mental) health is.
1. Nope. 2. Do you think they’re making distinctions? What isn’t mutilation is brainwashing. 3. That’s overhwelmingly positive too, in terms of the specific conditions it's dealing with. Sure they still have mental health problems and high suicide rates but when one of the two political parties in the country is out to specifically make their lives hell just because they can, why wouldn’t they? You know who else has high suicide rates? Army vets. They supposedly LOVE army vets, but also love traumatising them in horrible pointless wars and hate giving them health care afterwards. In short: right wing reactionaries who deny people health care cause suicides because they’re assholes.
He didn't make them up, other people did.
But even if it were true, it would be a poor metric as applied to people who go on puberty blockers prior to puberty and then have their organs removed, guaranteeing that they will never experience normal adult sexuality.
They're going on puberty blockers precisely because they're not experiencing normal sexuality, and never will, without treatment.
This "invasive inspection" trope is part of the transgender fairy tale.
As if 99% of the transes have "passing privilege" instead of the rare 1%.
I think there are enough stories of cis women accused of really being men when they tried to use public bathrooms to suggest that sooner or later you'll come round to them as being the ‘only possible way to protect women and children.’ There’s also the utterly creepy right-wing trope of claiming that famous, prominent, liberal women are really men. It’ll be invasive inspections in all walks of life, just to protect ‘real’ women and children.
"claiming" lol more like hashtag noticing
Exhibit A.
I've literally never heard such a story.
So you're ignorant about something, good for you, happens to us all.
So where are your links ?
"enough stories" suggests that it should be the work of a moment to give us half a dozen links to good solid unimpeachable stories that support your proposition.
Kind of answered your own question there.
No. I never claimed there were "enough stories" - that was you.
My view is that your "enough stories" are somewhat like unicorns. Very hard to find if they exist at all, so I'm certainly not going to waste my time on a unicorn hunt.
You are the guy who says that unicorns are to be found at every gas station and shopping mall. So you can produce one for us. Or better, half a dozen, since you claim they're everywhere.
So you gave up without trying, reasoning to the conclusion you wanted by analogising the evidence out of existence. This tallies with most of your approach to this subject.
"Perhaps a creative school district should re-label all its bathrooms “has a penis” or “has a vagina”"
Naw, the woke crowd will just invent some rule that a person's sex organ is whatever the bearer chooses to classify it as, and others have to respect that classification.
So if a woman chooses to view her vagina as a penis, then we have to say she has a penis.
And if a man calls his penis a vagina, then you better get on it or you're a bigot.
The woke crowd would point out that it would be inappropraite signage, especially for schools. I expect many in the non-woke crowd would, too.
Even more simple,
the signs on the doors are P and NP.
I think Adams should win because 1) there is a distinction based on sex (assumed to be biological sex, not gender) which requires intermediate scrutiny to justify, 2) that scrutiny is met as applied to cisgender students, but 3) it is not as applied to transgender students.
The school puts forward its interests in privacy and safety to justify sex-segregated bathrooms, which makes sense for cisgender students. But, I don’t see how either safety or privacy is advanced by denying access to transgender students. They aren’t using the bathroom to spy or harass. They are using it to promote their own health. Additionally, they aren’t exposing themselves. Moreover, the school all but admits those interests aren’t advanced because it allows transgender students to use the bathroom corresponding to their gender identity if they have transitioned before they enrolled.
"they aren’t exposing themselves"
But she is passing the urinals where males are exposing themselves. Does not the school have an interest in protecting their privacy?
Adams is not a peeping tom. But if I am wrong about that, why would the school have allowed Adams to use the boys bathroom if he was enrolled as a boy?
Bathroom policies are not only applied to peeping Toms. They are applied uniformly because the school does not know who will be a peeping Tom or otherwise violate privacy at any given point in time. Lots of people will occasionally give in to a rule-breaking urge, especially when they are young and still learning to control themselves in society.
That's a slur against transgender people.
You claim that the policy in question does not satisfy intermediate scrutiny as applied to Adams due to Adams not being a peeping Tom.
The record does not say, on way or the other, whether Adams was a peeping Tom, and the majority did not rely on such proclivities, or lack thereof, from the plaintiff to reach their judgment. But even if the parties stipulated that Adams is not a peeping Tom, why would you argue that this policy satisfies intermediate scrurtiny with respect to "cisgender" students. Are they all peeping Toms? Would not treating them all like peeping Toms constitute stereotyping.
Or are you arguing that if schools segregate restrooms on the basis of sex, they must offer an opportunity to students to prove they are not peeping Toms, to authorize to use restrooms (and m,aybe other facilities) of either sex?
I’m arguing that since there is no reason for a cisgender student to be in the opposite sex’s bathroom, the school can reasonably assume that permitting entrance puts people at risk. In contrast, a transgender person uses the opposite sex’s bathroom because (quite literally) it’s what the doctor ordered. No presumption of risk attaches.
There are a number of sexual assault cases by biological males identifying as female, but assaulting biological females, including within bathrooms.
I strongly suspect they were pretending to be transgender.
And? What's the school supposed to do about that? Say "you're just pretending to be transgender"? That's not going to fly.
But we did look up some facts, regarding the relative rates of sexual assault by transgender individuals. And it's interesting.
Regarding male to female transitions...they maintained the male level of criminality, being 18 times more likely to be convicted of a violent criminal offense than a biological female (This rate was consistent with biological men). These were just people who had committed to surgery.
In addition, they looked at the relative rates of sex offenders for the following groups in prison.
Transgender (male to female): 58.9% of offenders
Female (biological): 3.3% of offenders
Male (biological): 16.8% of offenders.
Based on this data, it could be assessed that transgender (male to female) individuals were at least as likely as biological men to commit sexual assault...and potentially at least 3 times more likely than a biological male to commit sexual assault.
If the school is committed to safety for its students, and considers keeping men outside of the women's bathroom important in this regard, transgender (male to female) individuals fall within the criminality patterns of biological men, and should be kept out of female bathrooms as well.
https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/
I have little doubt a school can weed out the pretenders (what student is going falsely live their entire life as transgender just to get access to the opposite sex's bathroom).
"I have little doubt a school can weed out the pretenders (what student is going falsely live their entire life as transgender just to get access to the opposite sex’s bathroom)."
Why is that a qualification?
Hypothetical example. Bob is a stereotypical high school male. One day, he shows up in a dress, says he now identifies as a female. He demands access to the women's bathroom.
Can the school say "no, you're just a guy in a dress"?. Or does that violate Bob's rights? At what point does his claim to identifying as a woman allow him access? If you deny him access after a week of identifying as a woman, are you violating his rights? A month?
Legally speaking, what's your line?
The school is not allowed to question the decision at all. How are they supposed to weed out the pretenders? Divining Rod? Trans sniffing dog?
And in one post you said that self identified trans who commit rapes in girls bathrooms are pretenders, then a post or two later you said there are not gonna be pretenders. You sort of argued with yourself.
In this case the school made a major concession - to one person - and it wasn’t enough for them so they sued and lost. Seems as if the plaintiff might be more interested in disrupting the girls restroom than avoiding the boys restroom.
I’m not sure exactly what the legal line is. Perhaps it involves a significant period of time (a history), consistency in just more than wearing a dress, or agreement from a doctor or counselor. But I have little doubt a line can be drawn to weed out the pretenders (Bob isn’t going to put up with meeting the standard).
The handwaving doesn't work Josh.
If you can't realistically draw a line offhand, asking a school to come up with a line that passes legal scrutiny just doesn't happen.
I can draw an offhand line: at least 6 months living in accord with your gender identity in all aspects of your life or a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Precedent will establish the exact contours of the line.
How so?
Basically the school is using your legal records as a presumptive indication of your biological sex, until something puts them on notice that the records are false.
It's unfortunate that the trans lunatics have prevailed to the point of being able to falsify government records.
Can the school find out if someone has changed their sex on the appropriate legal documents?
You are a bigoted, antisocial, delusional, disaffected, downscale conspiracy theorist, Mr. Bellmore. Your accusations of lunacy are interesting solely to other fringe-inhabiting losers.
You're right, the court should order the school to get rid of the urinals. After all, why would this boy be more likely to be a peeping Tom than any other boy?
Cos this "boy" is actually a gal.
Porkys was a very tedious movie, but the premise that teenage boys might, on average, have been more interesed in watching the girls in their shower, than in watching the boys in their own shower is not difficult to believe.
"Transgender student" is not a protected category under the relevant laws, so intermediate scrutiny doesn't apply to that.
A separate-sex bathroom policy facially discriminates on the basis of biological sex, and thus intermediate scrutiny is triggered in all applications.
Are sex-segregated bathrooms unlawful discrimination?
As I explained above, not facially, and not applied to cisgender students because intermediate scrutiny is satisfied. But as applied to transgender students, yes.
Yes, you indeed begged the question above.
What question did I beg?
Whether any relevant state interest is furthered by these bathroom policies. You asserted that they were not, because no legitimate interest was furthered by applying them to transgender students.
Then you said that a statement about people and students generally was a slur against transgender people.
Furthermore, I fail to see how applying this to "cisngender" students satisfies intermediate scrutiny, but applying it to transgender students do not.
I claimed legitimate state interests (privacy and safety) are furthered. They are just not furthered as applied to transgender students. I answered Michael's question is a reply above which I repeat here:
The slur is that a presumption of risk attaches to a transgender student.
So transgnender students have to use the restroom associated with the sex they "identify" with because the doctors ordered it?
I mean, what kind of quackery is that?
It's "quackery" that is endorsed by the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the American Psychological Association among many other professional medical organizations.
What is barely below the surface in most of the posts in support of this decision is the rejection of gender-affirming care for people with gender dysphoria.
They clearly are quacks.
I mean, I never heard of a medical treatment that requires using restrooms reserved for the opposite sex.
Clearly!
‘I never heard of a medical treatment that requires using restrooms reserved for the opposite sex.’
No, you didn’t, but when you heard trans men and trans women use men's and women’s bathrooms respectively and nobody ever cared, you HAD to do something about it.
The thing being done is to continue soing what has always been done.
You seem to be so defensive of these people
And you seem so belligerent towards them.
Why is gender even involved in a sex-discrimination issue?
I mean can you explain why sex can or can't a discriminant depending upon the congruency of your gender?
Using sex as a discriminant triggers intermediate scrutiny in all its applications. It's possible whether intermediate scrutiny is met based depends on the student's gender identity.
Why? Gender identity and sex are two different things, why are you linking them together as if they were the same?
I'm not saying they are the same thing. I'm saying the state's interest in providing segregated-sex bathrooms is justified as applied to cisgender students, but not to transgender students (see the post just above for the reasoning).
I reread you're argument I think I see what you're getting at. But:
If a cisgender male wants to use the female bathroom, not to spy or harass, but just to promote his own health, why wouldn't your reasoning also allow that?
I am at loss on how a cisgender male using the women's bathroom promotes his health.
That doesn’t matter to the argument. Cleanliness, availability of stalls, avoiding a bully, anything really.
The issue is on what does a person’s bodily privacy rest, you argue it’s the intent of the observer, and then you assign some nobility of purpose to transgenders while excluding cisgenders from it. It doesn't make sense.
Furthrr, There has been a nonzero amount of cases where transgenders raped, assaulted or otherwise acted lewdly which seems to defeat your argument.
I strongly suspect that’s because you don’t accept that gender affirming care (which includes using the bathroom that matches your gender identity) is a legitimate (and most effective) treatment for gender dysphoria. Escaping a bully, availability of stalls and cleanliness are things that can be addressed without having students switch bathrooms.
A trans girl is just as likely to assault someone in either the boy’s or girl’s restroom (not very likely at all). But, a cis boy, having no reason to be in the girl’s restroom, is probably far more likely to assault someone in the girl’s restroom.
'which seems to defeat your argument.'
Punishing people for other people's crimes? Wow, watch out cis men.
The bathrooms are sex segregated not gender segregated. Again you’re conflating sex and gender when it’s convenient.
Your need for mental health treatment shouldn’t grant the ability to erase the bodily privacy rights of another. Ones need for mental health care shouldn’t burden anyone else, frankly. If you need mental health care, that's between you ans your care provider, not between you and everyone else in the bathroom.
Unless it's White people, right?
Yeah you hardly want to go down that road, eh?
'Your need for mental health treatment'
Its the need to use bathrooms, actually.
'Ones need for mental health care shouldn’t burden anyone else, frankly'
Trans men have been using men's bathrooms and trans women have been using women's bathrooms all along without burdening anyone. You little fascists just love policing minorities.
They can be prohibited from using the restroom reserved for the opposite birth sex, just like the rest of us.
You guys sure do love exercising government power when you see a chance to make a minoritys' lives hell.
what is the cis and trans crappola?
"Penis" or "No Penis" that's it.
Sorry the world is more complicated than you like.
I’m not following your complaint. “Cis” means your gender identity matches your biomarker sex. “Trans” means it doesn’t. Where does “penis” and “no penis” come in and why are they appropriate in my argument rather than “cis” and "trans”?
you'll realize when you get slapped in the face with a Penis
Josh,
Your trans and cis have nothing to do with which bathroom is used.
Moreover I don't accept your "cis" ideological mumbo-jumbo.
Call you gender anything you'd like, but as for the bathroom assignment it is P or NP.
You think bathroom assignment should be based on genitals. I am arguing that doing so discriminates on the basis of sex as applied to transgender people. Perhaps you can address why my argument is wrong (and why you think "cis" and "trans" are mumbo-jumbo) instead of making a conclusory statement that it is.
Transgender, smansgender.
The determination is based on external genitalia.
If your trans had his penis removed, then NP.
If your trans has a penis built, then P. You can call that gender discrimination all that you want. But your language does not make it so.
Or, you could post a non-responsive reply.
And, I did not call it gender discrimination. I called it discrimination of the basis of sex (*) as applied to a transgender person who still has their original genitalia.
(*) sex=genitalia, as you defined it.
Follow the science:
Sex is generally determined at birth according to the baby’s chromosomes, gonads, and anatomy. These three features are used to determine biological sex.
https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/difference-between-sex-and-gender
We've been told over and over again that sex is not the same thing as gender. Well, fine. We use sex, non gender, to determine what bathroom you use on the basis of sex, not gender. Bathroom assignments on that basis does *not* discriminate on the basis of sex, any more than it would if we chose to assign different bathrooms to left-handed people and right-handed people.
That policy facially distinguishes on the basis of sex and thus must overcome intermediate scrutiny in order to not impermissibly discriminate on the basis of sex (without any reference to gender). I contend (as explained in other posts in this thread) that as applied to cisgender students, intermediate scrutiny is satisfied and the policy does not discriminate (and thus the policy survives a facial challenge). However, as applied to transgender students, intermediate scrutiny is not met and thus the policy impermissibly discriminates in this application.
Sounds like this issue will continue to be a real Sword Fight in 2023.
We should abolish the boy-in-pants and girl-in-a-dress logos and solve the problem with a little bit of renovation. One bathroom has only urinals. The other has only stalls. Use a bathroom you are capable of using. Peeking into stalls is not allowed. Checking out the person at the next urinal is allowed, but frowned upon.
Urinals are worth keeping because they pack more people into less floor space. I remember a baseball stadium had a long trough instead of discrete holes for even higher density.
I went hiking with a woman who brought a prosthetic device allowing her to pee standing up. She still spent much longer in the woods than the men in the party.
'We should abolish the boy-in-pants and girl-in-a-dress logos and solve the problem with a little bit of renovation.'
The absolute ridiculous knots you tie yourselves in just because you hate and fear trans people. Not even adults - children who may be trans are terrifying to you, for some reason.
Ah, not playing along with a delusion is now hate and fear?
Do I hate and fear anorexics for not calling them "fat"?
You're proposing radical alterations and renovations rather than simply accomodating them, so yeah, hate and fear. Not calling anorexics, or anyone, fat, is just basic decency, which you want to justify witholding from kids who may be trans.
Serious question. How is providing a gender neutral one person bathroom not "accommodating them"?
It's kind of mean and grudging, to be honest.
How is your own private bathroom worse than a multi-stall toilet facility with a multitude of swinging Johnsons??
Nige,
It is you who hate and fear reality.
One bathroom has only urinals. The other has only stalls.
Hmm, I think you mean that the different rooms aren't actually segregated by gender or sex at all? That would be a solution, but a rather convoluted one.
I suppose one eventual solution IS just abandoning communal bathrooms in favor of lots and lots of individual bathrooms. Not terribly cost effective, but then, individual urinals aren't cost effective relative to that gutter system I encountered in our plant in Germany. I guess we can afford it to avoid the issue.
OR just accomodate kids who may be trans as if they werent some sort of monstrous threat to other kids and are in fact just ordinary kids who are different in this one way. Cheaper, easier, less fuss.
It's all fun and games until someone gets a Penis in their eye.
The school in querstion provided sex-neutral, single-stall restrooms.
nmough for the ideological crazies
Well that one kid, anyway.
Why should we do that? to make self-destructive people comfortable isn’t a good reason to do anything.
They should work on their mental problems and try to make peace with reality. We don’t need to humor them or blur any lines so they can be comfortable avoiding reality for even one extra minute.
People at war with reality need to stop fighting it. There’s no way to win a war with reality. You can only hurt yourself fighting it.
'People at war with reality need to stop fighting it.'
The Trump supporters have spoken.
Wow, that's an exceptionally poor majority opinion. At the start I thought he was writing to uphold Plessy v. Ferguson with all those references to things being "unremarkable" and "universal practice". Substituting references to common sense over actual thinking is never a good idea. And it doesn't exactly get much better from there.
If you claim actual thinking is a virtue, you should (try to) start demonstrating it some week.
Yeah, upholding a policy for having boys and girls bathrooms based on biological sex doesn't require much thinking.
But you've gotta hand it to those dissenting judges, who've clearly done an extraordinary amount of thinking to get to their positions.
What I was struck buy after reading the opinions is the remarkably poor evidentiary presentation by the school district. The main dissent should have been a majority opinion, and, given the scanty evidentiary record, a case of very limited import. A curious note, the students complaining about Adams using the boys' bathroom were two girls. The various comments above about sex and gender seem to have relied solely on the very short excerpts in the post, not the opinions which are not nearly as odd looking; e.g., the conflation of sex and gender, and (to me) weird definitions are in the arguments of the parties and the district court decision, so the Circuit is more or less stuck with them.
The majority opinion had noted the long history of sex segregating restrooms and changing facilities. there is no indication that this sex segregation was done to privilege on sex over the other, and certainly there is no historical record that this long-standing tradition was enacted to oppress transgender individuals.
So lets say I accept this whole "Trans-Sexual" bullshit, how do you tell a legitimate Male to Female Tranny (is that a thing?) from your Old School Man Child Molester, I mean they both have Schlongs, maybe the Legitimate one doesn't have the $$$ to get Bitch Tits, Estrogen, and is bald. Do "Real" Trans-Sexuals get some kind of ID?
"Honest Officer, I wasn't Jerking off in the Girls Room! I'm just a Girl trying to drain the main vein!!!!"
Frank "and I'm supposed to be the crazy one?"
So long as they're not Republican senators or officials, Catholic priests, or sports coaches, they're probably fine.
Following oral argument, a divided panel of this Court affirmed the district court over a dissent.....After a member of this Court withheld the mandate, the panel majority sua sponte withdrew its initial opinion and issued a revised opinion, again affirming the district court over a revised dissent.....
Nothing to do with the substantive issue, but this passage from the court's opinion describes what is obviously some procedural jiggery-pokery that the court members themselves got up to.
The panel was lefty majority (and pro Adams) , and the en banc court is righty majority (and pro School Board), so presumably the procedural manoevres have something to do with trying to get the panel decision en-banced, or to stop it getting en-banced.
What's going on here ?
My recollection from the Flynn case in the DC court was that one judge sua sponte asking for an en banc rehearing was enough to get it there, so long as a majority of the whole court agreed to accept it. But maybe the 11th Circuit has different rules. (I also vaguely recall in the Flynn case that one member of the DC en banc minority seemed to allege some kind of jiggery-pokery about procedure there, but I forget the details.)
.....the panel majority sua sponte withdrew its initial opinion and issued a revised opinion....
It turns out that the revised opinion took nearly a YEAR to be issued. Presumably the full court can't en banc a panel decision that has been withdrawn, and so had to wait an extra year.
So the effect was a delay of a year to get to en banc, and the en banc has taken another 18 months.
Cui bono ? And how ?
I'm guessing the lefties saw some profit in delay but what benefit they hoped for I can't guess. Unless it was just - if there's a delay, something might turn up.
The entire transgender movement in a nutshell:
"Gender is different than sex! Ignore the science and recognize my subjective feelings about my gender is!"
"Oh, laws prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex? Never mind, my gender is also my sex."
Is it really worthwhile to instigate these trip down Bigoted Republican Lane, Volokh Conspirators.
Even if you are sympathetic to the views of your fans with respect to race, gays, women, immigration, and the like, (most of) you must recognize that these extended, bigoted rants by your fans are counterproductive to the conservative cause.
Isn't trying to make right-wing positions and thinking more palatable and popular in modern America already tough enough, without these unforced errors?
I don’t think I can add to this because I disagreed with the whole premise. A fundamental premise of constitutional legitimacy is that major social changes require both legilsative and textual hooks related to issues at least contemplated by the framers.
The framers contemplated the concept of a caste system being a problem, the Civil Rights amendments were about race, and both elements provided hooks that gave Brown v Board of Education legitimacy.
But neither the framers of the 14th Amendment nor the legislators of Civil Rights Act had the same approach to transgender issues that they had to race, nor would any of them have wanted their enactment to lead to a conclusion that biological sex-segregated bathrooms are illegal.
And as I have pointed out repeatedly, the same argument that “the text” protects transsexual identity and conduct also inexorably leads to the conclusion that it protects transracial identity and conduct, including conduct like wearing blackface.
Was Bostock wrongly decided because it was a major social change that lacked legislative and textual hooks?
I am confident that, if educational institutions were to decree that henceforth there would be no such things as separate boys' and girls' bathrooms, any more than there are separate black and white bathrooms, the transgender advocates would have no objection. What they object to is the idea that bathrooms should be segregated on the basis of sex rather than gender (even though 34 C.F.R. § 106.33 (part of the Title IX regulations) says that "A recipient [of federal assistance] may provide separate toilet, locker room, and shower facilities on the basis of sex").
Imagine getting up in the 39th Congress and noting that the equal protection clause will require boys who think they are girls to be allowed to use the girls bathroom in the local schoolhouses.
Someone more clever than me could write a humorous fictional transcript.
Is the word "assigned" in there?
Sigh. “biological boys” and “biological girls” is not a reference to one's "in reference to their sex determined at birth", although this determination creates a handy record that can be used to infer one's biological sex.
That's what IEPs are for.
The fact that there are vanishingly rare exceptions doesn't require us to humor people who want to pretend they're one of them.
Correct. Folk with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are unambiguously male throughout their life cycle. They don't change sex (no humans do that), they just develop some of the external male sexually differentiated phenotype later than is usual. The internal male phenotype they have all along.
They are incorrectly identified as female at birth.
As to the school's policy, it would be sensible to accept the correction when it is made. But this recategorisation should not be made because the sex has changed but because it was wrongly identified at birth.
A straightforward external examination is the normal - and reasonable because it is almost always right - approach to sex identification at birth. But it will miss things like this.
An examination of DNA would do better but would not be 100% accurate and would be unnecessarily costly to do as a matter of routine - at least as of now. In twenty years it might be routine.
100% accuracy could be achieved by invasive external examination of the gonads, but this would obviously be unethical. It would likely risk harm to the child, while little harm is likely to arise from a misidentification of sex, when the truth will come out anyway at puberty. So, while I say that accurate sex identification at birth is possible, I do not say that doctors should regard that as their most important priority. Almost always right is good enough.
The point though is that the truth is always there to be found - it doesn't change. It's just that some DSDs conceal the truth from normal inspection techniques, at least for a while.
In reality, as opposed to rhetoric, there’s no such thing as “intersex persons.”
There are some persons who have disorders of sexual development which make the identification of their sex more difficult than usual – eg where external sexual features appear to be female, but the internal sexual features are male. But these people are not “intersex” – they are whatever sex their gonads are, and if their genitals look more typical of folk with the other kind of gonads, they just have a DSD. They don’t belong to the other sex just because their secondary sexual characteristics don’t match the primary. Nor are they “inter” the two sexes. Their sex is the sex of their gonads. Period.
There are also a very very very small number of folk who don’t have gonads of either sex. They have streak gonads or a mosaic of gonadal material that amounts to neither testes nor ovaries. These unfortunate folk are also not “inter” the two sexes. They are just neither sex.
And the litigant in this case, and I suspect any other case so far reported, does not belong to either category. This litigant is unambiguously a girl. She may think she's a boy, or she may feel she's a boy, or she may want to be treated as if she's a boy - and good luck to her. But there's nothing remotely ambiguous about her sex.
The edit button is failing me. In the above comment it should say :
"...invasive internal examination...."
Lee,
Let me correct you here. An examination of the DNA is extremely commonly done for genetic testing and would accurately reveal the details. It's even available OTC for sex testing.
Well if the girl in this case wanted or was able to present evidence than the biological sex assignment at birth was erroneous, then that avenue was available to her.
But trying to take a rare biological anomaly and craft a rule based on it for everyone makes no sense.
The sex of the person did not change. He was biologically male. His sex was male. Simple chromosome testing, commonly done, would accurately assess whether the child was male or female, and could be done before birth. It's even available OTC.
Again, this is the actual science. People's sex doesn't change. Their gender can change, based on how they "appear" and "view themselves". But their sex does not change.
Nothing was "assigned" at birth. Only observed. These language structures they adopt are just nonsense.
If adopted children identify as the biological children of their adopted parents, are they the biological children of their adopted parents?
'In reality, as opposed to rhetoric, there’s no such thing as “intersex persons.”'
Medical science says there is.
'But there’s nothing remotely ambiguous about her sex.'
Medical science says different.
I don't think you speak for "Medical Science".
Do you?
Of course not, slowpoke. I'm just referring to it.
Sure he does. He's the Dr. Fauci of VC comments.
It mocks unqualified reliance on “sex assigned at birth,”
It’s just notable the lengths transphobes go to avoid it.
Are you comparing Smile Train with cutadickoffme or addadicktome?
As I said, it's what they use to infer one's biological sex. The birth record does not determine one's biological sex.
Extremely so.
Determining means reporting what is seen. Assigning means just randomly throwing shit at the wall.
Much like with trans people, socitey and law treat people as such until people feel biology starts to matter.
There are certain things you can't do with your biological sister no matter what your birth certificate says.
No, trannies are demanding we all believe them to be the same. That they are real authentic versions of their deranged identities and that we have suspend what we see with our own senses and enter their fantasyland with them.
And The Experts say that if we don't, we cause these people harm and they will suicide themselves, and that fragile state of being is somehow also not a mental illness.
Yes, intersex is a disability.
No one cares about your Marxists power words.
How many remnabi do you get per post?
No, what it doesn't require is for you to fanatically oppose each and every effort to accomodate their needs as if the slightest concession will bring about the fall of ciivilization.
'Trannies' would prefer if you just didn't give a shit about their existence and got on with your life and let them get on with theirs. They somehow both threaten your very sense of reality itself AND are weak and vulnerable and easily driven to suicide with relentless bullying, therefore a GREAT target. I refer you to that Umberto Eco list about fascism.
You care, or you wouldn’t have acquired such a handy but meaningless catch-phrase to deploy.
I get drox remnabi and fwipty dopurdies.
So should we have vomitoriums for those with bulemia?
Accommodate their wants, Nige. Not their needs. Adams here is a girl who wants to be treated as a boy. But her desire in this regard isn't even the slightest bit binding on other people.
This suit and the issue has nothing to do with the infinitesimal number of intersex people.
No, just for people who have to interact with yourself.
You've earned ¥20 for that post. Good job, Comrade Huan!
lol don't act like you don't know what remnabi is.
But sure how am I being paid in them if I don’t know what they are? I have a big chest full of remnabis and I’m going to bury them on a desert island like the pirates of old. Arrr.
The Lady Doth Protest Too Much
My kingdom for a horse.
I'll put that with my enrabis and doopents and squildigs. The're really piling up.
The dissent begs to differ:
"The majority opinion does so in disregard of the record evidence—evidence the majority does not contest—which demonstrates that gender identity is an immutable, biological component of a person's sex."
"He was biologically male."
I can see how you'd make this mistake, since the trans fanatics go to great lengths to be confusing about this.
But, no, she was biologically female and only 'identified' as "male". The court record was clear about this.
No, the causality runs in the other direction, trivially.
Calling it a want instead of a need is meaningless, as if you were the boss of whether other people want something or need something. It’s a simple social accomodation that costs nothing, either way. Only cruelty and reactionary politics demands such an hysterical and overblown reaction to it – the opportunity for singling out a vulnerable minority for prejudicial mistreatment, satanic-panicking a populist surge of hate for entirely cynical reasons.
Oh God don't go knocking on the devil's door, next thing you know cosmetic surgery for kids with burns or other physical injuries will be denounced.
Well, a key difference is that most cosmetic surgery is, well, cosmetic, and the rest is functional (cleft palates, burn victims, etc.) while SRS — at least bottom surgery — is anti-functional. It results in sterilization.
Sure thing, buddy, they just want accommodations.
Who can forget:
TRANS-WOMEN ARE WOMEN!
TRANS-WOMEN ARE WOMEN!
TRANS-WOMEN ARE WOMEN!
TRANS-WOMEN ARE WOMEN!
Apparently just you.
And trans men are men.
Yes, before telling you where to sit. Whereas recording where you are sitting is the analogy to recording your sex at birth.
You have defined the problem exactly.
I don't think that assigning seats in school is the same thing as perceiving where the students are already sitting.
Only by those on the left. Because anyone else would understand that trying to restore what was lost in an accident or attack or however a child was injured is not mutilation.
Exactly, just like all medical operations carried out by health professionals with the consent of the patient.
It may mock the very notion that sex is "assigned" at birth; it certainly doesn't mock the notion that sex is something biological and fixed at birth.
Dr. Ed making stuff up again!
I'm no expert in this regard, but professionals have indicated judgment calls occur in this regard. That -- coupled with the point that right-wingers tend to rely on dogma, superstition, and bigotry when approaching this issue -- disinclines me to think much of Republican and conservative positions in this context.
Well, that and the predictable political consequences of the continuing improvement of America's society and electorate (less rural, less religious, less bigoted, less backward, more diverse).
I was directly replying to Queenie's example of "individuals who have 5-alpha reductase, a condition where the person has XY chromosomes"
The science is clear in this case.
If you have an X Chromosome and a Y Chromosome, you are biologically of the male sex. This will not change. This is immutable.
If you have an X Chromosome and a X Chromosome, you are biologically of the female sex. Again, this will not change. This is immutable.
And yes, there are a very small number of chromosomal disorders (Klinefelter syndrome, Turner syndrome, 46,XX/46,XY etc), which don’t neatly fit into this pattern. And this will still be immutable.
Gender may change. Sex doesn’t.
He cannot help it.
lol no they aren't. They're not even allowed in the men's bathrooms lol
So what? The people who choose to transition do so knowing that, and to them, it is functional.
Replying to Nige:
As long as they are adults.
Kids need health care too, you don't get to fucking say whether they can get the treatment they need or not.
Plenty of religion-driven surgery results in mutilation. Of infants. Clingers don’t seem to mind.
One more long-term clean-up project for the reasoning, modern, liberal-libertarian "elite."
Replying to Nige:
You fucktard. Kids who are not allowed by law to drink alcohol, use non prescribed drugs, enter into contracts, get married, join the military, buy tobacco, buy vaping devices, buy spray paint and on and on should not be allowed to have the dicks or breast cut off because they have a mental illness.
Any other health care you’d like to deny kids based on your arbitrary and ignorant prejudices? Your scaremongering and lies? Oh, no, wait, you’ll just keep picking on this small vulnerable group becuase you’re a coward and a bully and because the only way to keep your political hate-mob together is to find an external marginal group to attack.
Again, calling it 'health care' begs the question. Many places ban so-called conversion therapy for minors.
It does beg the question. However, there is a consensus among professional medical organizations what the answer to that question is (as there is on conversion therapy as well).
Conversion therapy for minors is hateful abusive homophobic quackery - this is actual, professional, consensual, informed, supportive, medical health care. It's not even especially easy for them to access it! But what little there is these bigots want to bomb-threat out of existence.
‘Allowed’ ha, nobody but you fasicst little creeps care.
"She" is not "intersex" she's male.
"Intersex" is used as a bit of gentle gaslighting to try to persuade us that folk who have certain types of DSDs are "inter" the two sexes, and not firmly one or the other. But in reality people described as "intersex" ARE one thing or the other* - like Caster Semenya, who is unambiguously male. Using "Intersex" to describe males and females with DSDs is a bit like using "World Series" to describe an American, indeed essentially domestic US, competition. It's marketing fluff.
En passant, I'll note that when "she" started out, the sex related contribution to "her" athletic advantage was mysterious - it was left to speculation. But I see from your wiki link that it is now clearly stated (though as it's wiki, bring your ladle of salt) :
"Semenya is an intersex woman, with 5a-Reductase 2 deficiency, assigned female at birth with XY and naturally elevated testosterone caused by the presence of internal testes"
Leaving aside the self contradicting semantic fluff of "intersex woman" and the "assigned" sex at birth, this describes clearly why Caster Semenya has an unfair advantage in female athletic competion. "She" is a man (see testes which is definitive, and XY is a pretty good clue), and has naturally elevated testosterone, and clearly also had naturally elevated testosterone during development - which is why she has a typically male skeletal and muscular physique. "She" may also be athletically talented, and "she" may train hard - but "she" shouldn't be competing against women.
Which is not to say that, if "she" prefers, "she" shouldn't live "her" life as a "woman" as best "she" can, so long as that doesn't involve :
1. unfairly competing in women's sports competitions and
2. requiring - as opposed to requesting - other people to respect "her" preference to live as a "woman."
I for one would be quite happy to drop the quote marks around "she", "her" and "woman", if she asked me nicely, and if we weren't discussing the division of athletic competitions on the basis of sex.
* except folk with no sexually differentiated gonads who are, again, not "inter" the two sexes, but just neither.
'“Intersex” is used as a bit of gentle gaslighting'
No, it's a medically recognised condition, stop telling yourself stories.
'if she asked me nicely,'
There's a Simpsons episode where Homer comes round to being less homophobic because John Waters saves his life and John Waters says, great, now I have to go individually save the lives of every other homophobe in America just to get treated equally. Or words to that effect.
"No, it’s a medically recognised condition, stop telling yourself stories. "
No, it's a ideogically promulgated myth.
An examination of the DNA is much more accurate than a mere observation of external features. But it is still not 100% accurate. A test for karotype will be fooled by the rare case of an SRY gene beine transposed to the X chromosome. A test for the SRY gene itself will be fooled by a defective mutation in the SRY gene. A test for an effective SRY gene with no deleterious mutations might be fooled by some other mutation elsewhere that is able to stop the action of the SRY gene. And so on.
Until your science is so good that you know exactly what causes all DSDs and how they do it, your DNA testing is going to be less than 100% accurate as an identifier of sex. And then there might be undiscovered, but possible, environmental influences that prevent perfectly normal genes operating in the usual way.
The point, I suppose, is this. There's three different things going on here, which - to make life more confusing - are each sometimes referred to by the same word "determine." The three things are :
1. definition of sex
2. identification of sex
3. causation/development of sex
To identify sex (2) with 100% accuracy, you have to inspect the feature which defines sex, not features which are part of the sex development process (3) - because something in (3) might go awry and screw up your identification.
Medicine disagrees, but ok.
The "assigning" of sex at birth is really 2 - identification. Physical examination, DNA testing etc are methods of identification. And in the current state of technology, none of them (at least not the ethical ones) are 100% accurate.
Definition - though a huge fuss and huge attempts to obscure are made, (1) is actually quite simple. Your sex is defined by your gametes. Sex is a reproductive category, and at its most fundamental sex is a feature of gametes. Only anisogamous creatures have sexes. Isogamous creatures are not sexually differentiated.
The concept of sex is only extended from gametes to organisms as a derivation from anisogamy, because all sexual differentiation in the phenotype of organisms is derived (by evolutionary development) from the fundamental distinction of gamete type.
In sex definition, gametes are absolute rulers. There are no balancing factors. All subsidiary sexual differention is just downstream adaptation to the reproductive role that has already been conclusively defined by your gamete type. But, because gametes have to be manufactured, we can also use gonads as defining features. While gonads can sometimes be defective and fail to produce gametes, we know which type of gametes they would produce if they weren't defective (or past their sell by date.)
3. sexual development - is a quite different matter. All sorts of mechanisms, both genetic and environmental, are used to develop a creature with male gonads, or with female gonads, or occasionally, with both. And these mechanisms differ from group to group, species to species.
So we know that in (most) mammals the primary sex development trigger is the SRY gene, which is typically housed on the Y chromosome. This is why we can use XY (or indeed any karotype with a Y in it) as an excellent identifier of sex in humans (ie for 2 purposes.) If we identify XY we can say with great confidence that we have a male. But not perfect confidence. Very occasionally our proxy identifier (karotype) will give us a false identification. Because karotype is not what defines sex. It is merely a feature involved in sex development, and since sex development usually follows the normal path, that's why karotype is a good proxy for identification.
But if you want 100% accuracy in your identification, you have to go for the defining feature of sex - direct inspection of the gonads, and figuring if they're testes or ovaries. Or very occasionally neither.
Lee,
I'm not disagreeing with the technicalities. Just mentioning that genetic testing is very common today, not something that is 20 years from now.
I look forward to the day when all surgical mutilation of children -- circumcision, female genital surgery, whatever superstitious, backward dumbasses can dream up -- precipitates prosecution of every adult involved.
Medical folk can be ideological too.
So what? Your ideology is out of step with medical science, not theirs.
The level of ideological gaslighting is shown very nicely by Berkeley's famed Chez Panisse Restaurant.
It has two restrooms; formerly these were Women and Men. Now they are Women and All Genders.
Separate but Equal in the far left paradise.
Who do you think is responsible for treating someone's mental health? The patient and their doctor? Or everyone else in society?
Your "experts" have put the responsibility of a transgenders mental health upon everyone in society. It's bizarro world.
Treating people with basic decency is too much of a burden for you? Boo hoo. If you could refrain from sending bomb threats to children’s hospitals, that might help with the mental health of everyone targeted, if that’s not too much to ask.
The use of the word "intersex" is a semantic question not a medical one. There's no dispute about the biological facts of DSDs (though there are certainly more rabbit holes to explore) - the question is simply whether "intersex"" is a reasonable description of folk who are unambiguously male, or unambiguously female, and are thus not "inter" the two sexes, but who are firmly in one sex camp or the other, but who have DSDs.
Or whether it is ideological gaslighting. The fact that medical folk can, and do, use semantics to do ideological gaslightling does not make the gaslighting "medical science". It's still gaslighting.
Currently, it's deemed perfectly acceptable as a medical term, for some reason you find it semantically problematic but there's no single solitary reason for any working medical professional or researcher to give a fuck.
If the Amtrak wished to describe the Acela Service as an "international" railway even though it goes nowhere near a national boundary, they're free to do so. It's a free country, more or less.
But their decision to call it "international" has nothing to do with railway engineering, or any other kind of special railway expertise. It's just marketing fluff.
I don't insist on preventing you, or such members of the medical profession, or medical researchers, as wish to do so, from using "intersex" to refer to folk who are not, as a matter of fact - "inter" the two sexes.
I merely point out that it's just marketing fluff and not to be taken seriously.
No, it's medicine.
True, but that doesn't loosen the other restriction. But if you want to argue by analogy that this trans student can't use *either* the boys or girls bathroom, you're doing a good job.
It's entertaining that the "expert" on whose testimony the dissent relies here offers a ragbag of secondary sex characteristics as the basis of identifying "biological sex" and concludes by offering a tiebreaking balancing test :
After spelling out these numerous biological components of
sex, Dr. Ehrensaft testified: “When there is a divergence between
these factors, neurological sex and related gender identity are the
most important and determinative factors” for determining sex
which can only be applied to humans ! 🙂
The whole basis of her silly scheme cannot be applied to any other animal or plant. It's a special biology just for humans.
Which shows us just how much "science" is involved. Precisely zip.
Nobody has been disputing that. If there were a case where someone's birth certificate were erroneous and they were forced to use the wrong bathroom, we'd see how that would turn out. But this is not that case.
Yeah, if they were lined up right, that would be fine, but we're talking about people for whom they do NOT line up, which is the entire point.
'The whole basis of her silly scheme cannot be applied to any other animal or plant. It’s a special biology just for humans.'
Of course it can apply to other animals and plants, we just haven't yet developed methods for detecting or measuring the divergence except by observing their behaviour, and there are certainly examples in animals species that are not contra-indicative. Not sure about plants, I'll give you that.
It's actually reasonable: If your biological factors arrive at a tie, let the person pick.
Not at all like letting the person contradict the objective evidence.
That’s not her test, Brett.
“neurological sex and related gender identity ” are among Dr. Ehrensaft’s ragbag of “biological components of sex”. You get to apply her balancing test – giving determinative value to “neurological sex and related gender identity ” – whenever there is a “divergence” between the factors included within the ragbag. Thus even if all her other factors point one way, but the “neurological sex and related gender identity ” point the other way, then there’s a divergence, and “neurological sex and related gender identity” win.
So “neurological sex and related gender identity ” always and necessarily win. The tiebreaker rule eats everything else.
The scheme is an edifice of nonsense, specifically designed to exclude biological markers.
It is also - obviously - nonsense as a longstanding matter of biology. Sex, biologically, is a reproductive category. An animal's (or plant's) role in reproduction is absolutely determined by its gamete type. All the other secondary sexual characteristics - ie the other contents of the ragbag - are simply sexually differentiated evolutionary developments which serve to assist the animal / plant in reproducing with its particular gamete type. That reproduction with different gamete types is optimised with different body plans is the sole reason why anisogamous creatures have sexually differentiated body plans. Isogamous creatures are not sexually differentiated.
And typically those secondary sexual characteristics develop as a consequence of the prior sexual differentiation of the gamete factories - the gonads. Secondary sexual features are differentiated in the development process by the take up of testosterone manufactured by the testes. No testes, much less testosterone, leads to female secondary characteristics. It's gonads first, everything else second.
If, because of some development failure, these secondary features fail in any case to match the primary - the gametes - the animal's role in reproduction will not be changed. If it's a sperm producer, that's its role in reproduction. It cannot take the egg producer's role instead. A development failure in the secondary features may make it a less efficient reproducer, maybe even a complete failure. But it's never going to switch teams. It always has the reproductive role of its gametes.
There is indeed one "biomarker" which does indeed eat everything else in anyone's ragbag. Gamete type. And so - obviously - we don't need a ragbag.