The Volokh Conspiracy
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USC Lawprof Michael Simkovic Defends the LSAT
Simkovic, over at Leiter's Law School Reports, defends the LSAT from those who would eliminate it in an effort to enhance law school "diversity" (see the original for hyperlinks supporting various assertions):
If standardized test scores were removed from the rankings, or their weight reduced, law schools probably would spend less money on merit scholarships. But there is no guarantee that this money would be spent to help students from poor families. Indeed, affirmative action, as practiced by elite law schools, generally involves the admission of students from high income families who benefited from high quality K-12 and college educations, and who can afford to pay full tuition. Many students who are diverse because they are Hispanic are also white and no less wealthy than their non-Hispanic white peers.
Affirmative action, as practiced by many universities, does not screen for individual circumstances, family history of suffering or moral culpability for the suffering of others, or anything closely related to moral desert. These programs were initially ostensibly intended as remediation for enslavement of African Americans and forceful expropriation from Native Americans. But in practice, the benefits and costs to individuals turn only on people's willingness to check boxes on a self-report form or write a well-crafted "diversity statement", knowing that there is substantial upside and little risk to claiming to be 'diverse' in the particular way that will gain favor from admissions officers. Economists have found that many people change their self-reported racial and ethnic identities in response to incentives created by affirmative action. Numerous studies find that the rich exhibit more entitled and less honest behaviors than the general population, so this self-report diversity regime likely benefits the rich, entitled, and dishonest at the expense of both the truly disadvantaged and meritocratic efficiency and desert.
There is no mechanism to prevent diversity programs from benefiting the wealthy direct heirs to the fortunes of Spanish Conquistadors, slave traders, plantation owners, Inquisitors, and war criminals. Nor is there any mechanism to exempt from official discrimination those who families suffered from serfdom, slavery, genocide, or famine overseas or subsequent discrimination in the United States: serfs, concentration camp survivors, Jews, Mormons, Huguenots, Armenians, Poles, Ukrainians, and other Eastern Europeans, Copts, Irish, Boers, Kosovars, Bosnians, Italians, Middle Easterners, among others.
Rather than screen for moral desert based on sources of family wealth or documented persecution of direct progenitors, universities have allowed heirs to shady fortunes to donate their way into our classes and onto our boards. At the same time, we preach a self-righteous, self-serving ideology, and treat those who challenge it with hostility. This ideology maintains that moral responsibility for slavery turns not on inheritance of wealth misappropriated from slave labor, but rather on racial and ethnic identity, regardless of individual economic circumstances. Universities with large endowments benefit at the expense of innocent applicants who we scapegoat for the sins of our aristocratic donors.*
My bet is that if the rankings emphasized standardized test scores less, most law schools would shift even more toward serving students from wealthier backgrounds, and would also increase their net prices and the shadow price of expected donations from students' families. In other words, law schools—like the unreformed, less effective, and corrupt British Navy of old—would sell seats to the highest bidder.
Idiosyncratically defined diversity will likely continue to serve as a rationalization for profit-maximizing practices. Educators, public officials, and media organizations have been arguing for decades that diversity justifies departures from identity-neutral meritocratic standards. Nevertheless, most of the population still considers universities' race, ethnicity, and legacy admissions policies unethical. They prefer test scores, grades and community service.
FWIW, when I was at Yale Law, first semester was pass/fail, so there was no objective way for employers to determine how one was performing in law school. The result was a clear pattern: students with connections, who went to the most elite private colleges (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and the like), or otherwise appeared attractive on rather subjective grounds to employers got summer jobs at big firms. My friends who went to excellent-but-not-quite-Harvard undergrads like Berkeley, Trinity, or SUNY Binghamton, and who didn't have parents who were prominent lawyers, politicians, or the like did not. So agree or disagree overall with Simkovic, it does strike me that the absence of the objective indicator of grades un-leveled the playing field, and I think the same would happen in law school admissions.
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So agree or disagree overall with Simkovic, it does strike me that the absence of the objective indicator of grades un-leveled the playing field, and I think the same would happen in law school admissions.
One can generally assume that intelligent people want the results they get from a policy. So what you describe, to them, is a feature, not a bug.
I agree -- and then there is the question of cui bono?
Is the purpose of law school to prepare professionals to represent individuals, or is it to enforce a caste system? I'm starting to think that the latter is the case, in which point the fewer objective measures of who is (and isn't) being admitted the better.
Of all the standardized tests I’ve taken, the LSAT strikes me as the best-correlated with intelligence generally, and the kind of intelligence that is needed to be a good lawyer in particular.
I also genuinely don’t understand the mechanics of how schools that don’t use the LSAT decide who does and doesn’t get admitted,
"I also genuinely don’t understand the mechanics of how schools that don’t use the LSAT decide who does and doesn’t get admitted"
Is your last name Obama or Bush? Did mommy and daddy donate well? Did you go to the "right" schools as an undergraduate, where you had a 3.8 GPA. Like from Harvard? (FYI, due to grade inflation, that 3.8 is the average of Harvard Students).
Ask the real question; Did you express the proper opinions in your application essay? Are the professors who recommend you from the approved political perspectives, and do they speak of you in that sense?
Remember, it's not just wanting Brown & Black faces, it's wanting all of the faces (particularly the White ones) parroting the approved propaganda.
Everything else is secondary.
Having spent more than 30 years on law school admissions committees, I can testify that the LSAT is the single most predictive indicator of law school success. For Harvard, Yale or other "top" 14 law schools, minority students with somewhat lower LSATs will probably be successful though likely in the lower part of the class. But at many law schools, a student with a low LSAT is likely to flunk out (I assume law schools do still flunk people) having spent lots of money (or incurred lots of debt) and wasted a year of his or her life.
"Enrollment management" has come to many law schools -- it would be interesting to learn what the flunk-out rate is today. Post 2010, with the plummeting enrollment (at least locally), I'm not so sure that the dean would be happy with a large failure rate.
And the loan debt of the 1L who flunked out is an interesting (and never discussed) issue -- everyone (in my field) discusses the loan debts of graduates but no one ever discusses the loan debts of those who didn't graduate. The only survey I ever saw, and this was 30 years ago now, was that 10% of the homeless in Portland, Maine had an outstanding student loan with the University of Maine.
There are ethical questions here in multiple dimensions.
"law school success"
But you see, that's just one problematic concept following another. That's why we need to do away with law school grades too. /sarc
re: correlated with the kind of intelligence that's needed to be a good lawyer - I don't have enough data to speak to that reliably.
re: best-correlated with intelligence generally - I have to strongly disagree with that one on multiple fronts. First and foremost, you can't confirm a correlation with something that we can't even agree on a definition of. What is "intelligence generally"? We've been wrestling with that question for decades at least - and arguably since the time of Socrates. We are no closer to a clean definition than we were back then. (Unless, that is, you want to reduce the definition to the trivial case that "intelligence is the ability to do well on intelligence tests".)
Second, what data I do have demonstrates that 'people who do well on the LSAT' still includes a large number of people with a striking lack of common sense. That population also includes a very large number of people who are nearly completely innumerate (the mathematical equivalent of being illiterate), some of them taking glee in their ignorance. Since both of those traits are, in my opinion at least, essential elements of any proposed definition of general intelligence, I cannot agree with your assertion that the LSAT is a useful predictor of general intelligence.
"direct heirs to the fortunes of Spanish Conquistadors, slave traders, plantation owners, Inquisitors, and war criminals. "
There are two groups often omitted -- first, there were Black slave owners. Kamela Harris is a decedent of Hamilton Brown, who was not only a slave & plantation owner on the Island of Jamaica, but one of the largest. See: https://www.jamaicaglobalonline.com/kamala-harris-jamaican-heritage/ And Jamaican slavery was far more brutal than American slavery, with much higher morbidity and mortality rates.
When Lincoln freed the slaves in DC by buying them, he initially refused to compensate the Black slaveowners. QED there *were* Black slaveowners....
And second, slaves were kidnapped into slavery by other African tribes. Remember that most of Africa is at least 1000 feet above sea level -- it has no natural harbors. The slave traders stayed with their ships (their ride home) and the slaves were brought down to their ships. Captured by other Africans and then sold by Arabs.
So what about the Africans who enslaved other Africans -- their descendants are now coming to this country and benefiting from affirmative action....
Folks tend to forget all of this...
Were it not for the LSAT, I would have been admitted to a national law school, been a law review editor or graduated in the top 10% of my class. I was not prepared for college math, chose the wrong major and was demeaned by the college dean whose recommendation was required, "not the right material" for law school, tough first two years, lower middle class small town, etc.
Same thing here -- I got a 39 and got into a top-20 school but decided not to go, in part, because my undergrad advisor told me that he didn't think I could do it. (I also didn't want to borrow all the money, and this private school was WAY more expensive than the state school I wanted to attend.)
I often wonder if I made the right decision...
Unless you had a traumatic brain injury in the interim, you should rest assured that you absolutely could not have done it,
A doctorate is more difficult -- considerably more difficult.
And no one believes you have one of those either.
I do -- I even have a 203 page book (my dissertation) somewhere in the Library of Congress...
What’s it called?
A dissertation...
There is a way to admit blacks while still emphasizing merit: set aside a percentage of slots for blacks (say, 13%), and give those slots to the best-qualified black applicants. The remaining slots go to the best-qualified non-black applicants. The result will be that there is an acceptable proportion of blacks, and that at the same time each and every student-–both black and non-black-–has been admitted based on merit. This seems to be the best that can be hoped for in the present circumstances, and seems much better than a system where merit is eliminated altogether for the sole purpose of ensuring that a relatively small proportion (say, 13%) of slots will go to blacks.
Supremes in Bakke said that’s no bueno. Ironic though that a straight up quota system of the type rejected in Bakke would likely be more fair than the current ‘one factor among many’ (ie just don’t call it a quota) approach.
I'd take it a step further and say that a set percentage of the assistantships, fellowships, and summer placements will be reserved for Black students -- with the rest reserved for White students. Hence you'd be competing against your caste, which would actually be a lot fairer than what we have right now.
That is exactly what should be done.
Gorsuch’s opinion in Bostock was based on a textual approach, with the idea that we have to follow the text come what may, whether it leads to results we like or not. Based on that approach, he (and the Court) concluded that for purposes of employment discrimination, gender is not limited to biological sex but includes gender identity. Discrimination on the basis of gender identify is discrimination based on sex, and prohibitted. This means an employer is required to accept the gender identity checked on the form. Failing to do so, for example claiming a person with a gender identity different from their biological birth sex is engaging in some sort of fraud, is itself illegal invidious discrimination.
Now the wording for education (“on the basis of…”) is different from the wording for employment (“because of..”), and that difference might make all the difference in the world.
But if we start from a premise that the difference between “because of” and on “the basis of” doesn’t matter for purposes of trangender discrimination, and educational institutions are required to accept an applicant’s stated gender identity at face value, it would seem a straightforward consequence that they would also be required to accept an applicant’s racial identity at face value. Treating people whose stated racial identity is different from their biological birth race as having committed some sort of fraud or done something wrong would be straightforward transracial discrimination, regarding the cys as somehow being more authentic than the trans, in exactly the way that claiming a transgender individual is somehow doing something fraudulent represents transgender discrimination.
In other words, the premise of Professor Simkovic’s argument – the idea that people who identify as black should be treated differently depending on their biological birth race, and people born white who identify as black when applying to school are somehow not really fully black when it comes to diversity-based university admissions decisions – is itself a form invidious discrimination that the Civil Rights Act prohibits. If Bostock applies, then the logic of Bostock would lead to the conclusion that schools are required to consider people who identify as black as being fully black for all purposes, without discriminating based on cys/trans status. And if they don’t, transracial black people who are discriminated against because of their trans status are entitled to sue.
I don’t see how there can be any legitimate text-based interpretation of the Civil Rights Act that concludes schools can’t discriminate against transgender people based on a belief they aren’t “really” their identified gender, yet somehow retain a right to discriminate against transracial people, based on the very belief that Professor Simkovic articulated, that transracial people are aomehow engaging in some sort of fraud and should not “really” be considered to be true members of the race of their identity. In matters of gender, beliefs like that are the very definition of transphobia. So why should transphobes like Professor Simkovic be treated any differently when it comes to race? The text is the same. It ought to lead down the same primrose path. And Bostock says justification by text, solely text, and follow the text wherever it leads.
"Failing to do so, for example claiming a person with a gender identity different from their biological birth sex is engaging in some sort of fraud, is itself illegal invidious discrimination."
But that's kind of stupid. Sure, it's true that you're going to treat a guy who says he's a girl differently than you would a girl who says she's a girl, but that's not discrimination on the basis of sex, it's discrimination on the basis of lying.
His reasoning does work for cross dressers who don't lie about their sex, it works for homosexuals, but it falls completely on its face for "trans-sexuals", with the implications you state.
I doubt, however, that he'd follow his own reasoning there, because it's just not somewhere he wants to go. Or, I don't know, maybe he would; It would be a fine way to abolish racial preferences, wouldn't it?
I’ll say briefly that the whole rationale of Bostock is that a strictly textual interpretatiion of the Civil Rights Act leads to places its framers would not have wanted to go.
Under a strictly neutral and indiscriminate application of this logic, why should this Bostock’s framers end up getting treated any differently?
"Should"? No. "Will"? Probably. They can always find an excuse not to literally follow their own reasoning.
"Now the wording for education (“on the basis of…”) is different from the wording for employment (“because of..”), and that difference might make all the difference in the world."
We'll see how that works out in practice.
Don't forget that law firms have their ways of getting their hands on the facebook (the actual book, with pictures) that the schools make. See how the interview system works for fat and/or ugly people, regardless of how good their grades are. Then see how it works for attractive people.
In my law school class at a top-50 school we had 2 very attractive blonde women who had job interviews for summer associateships every frickin' day. I mean, sometimes 2 or 3 a day. I have no idea how they did academically (anonymous grading, remember), but they had their choice of jobs. And the rest of us, we were lucky to get an interview once every 2 weeks. Or didn't even try.
I don’t see how law firms getting the Facebook wouldn’t be a FERPA violation unless EVERY student in it signed a waiver.
Are you sure they didn’t get pictures via some other means? Even 20 years ago, it was often fairly easy to get a picture of a named student, sometimes even high school photos printed in the hometown newspaper via LEXIS/NEXIS
Memory is that NEXIS didn’t have photos, but once you had the name of the paper and the date, you could go to it’s website and hope you got lucky — which you often did.
(Guerrilla Journalism if anyone cares -- we often need a picture of someone to ask others about that someone.
It's directory information, which makes it an opt-out regime rather than an opt-in regime.
ED says: "Schools may disclose, without consent, "directory" information such as a student's name, address, telephone number, date and place of birth, honors and awards, and dates of attendance. "
I don't see image here -- although if a law school truly released it to anyone who wanted it, if they printed a book that anyone could buy in the bookstore, then you'd have a defensible argument.
But most IHEs no longer do -- it's electronic and restricted to known users, in most cases it is only admin, faculty, and current students who have access to it.
Now if it were only faculty & admin, then I would argue that it is protected PII, even though it could be considered directory info, because the institution has decided not to so consider it. Letting other students access it (but not others) makes it a really interesting issue.
Of course FERPA is a mess and needs to be rewritten...
Not that googling a web page is legal research, "Dr Ed," but:
https://studentprivacy.ed.gov/ferpa
If anything, the US Department of Education (ED) is inconsistent.
I quoted from a different portion of their website.
But you didn't answer my underlying question -- IS it directory information if it is not released publicly, or is it PII that can only be used for institutional purposes? And if it isn't even released to other students, then I'd argue that it is PII....
Pretty sure I found the source of your quote, Dr Ed. The next sentence of that page says "A school may disclose 'directory information' to third parties without consent if it has given public notice of the types of information which it has designated as 'directory information,'
So directory information is whatever the institution says it is and yes, that can include pictures.
What law schools still produce actual facebooks? Mine certainly didn’t (and I didn’t graduate any time recently).
Smart people are going to rule the world and gather up most of the wealth. You can't change that by refusing to look at a test score. Let them into your school or don't, but they will still end up being your boss.
Smart people, yes -- but not necessarily the current clique of sorta-smart people with connections.
It's been over 90 years since we have re-shuffled the economic deck of cards in this country and we are overdue for another shuffling. What people forget is that there were a lot of people doing VERY well a century ago -- in the 1920s -- and that a LOT of them wound up losing a LOT in the Depression and wound up going from upper middle class to lower middle class.
Household wealth is down something like #13.5 Trillion and the bad times still haven't arrived yet. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/household-wealth-down-by-13-5-trillion-in-2022-second-worst-destruction-on-record-11670623787
If both Housing and Stock prices were to collapse -- and both could, concurrently, things could get quite interesting.
What you need to worry about is the smart people who are excluded from success under the current system -- they are the ones with the most to gain should the current system collapse. And they are the ones increasingly being excluded from places like Yale Law School.
Answer honestly -- how many students are in Yale on their own merit -- and how many are there because of who their parents are, either legacy alumni donors or of a preferred skin color -- in either case, that is the parent and not the child.
Quite the faith in the meritocracy you have. If a pipeline is cut off, the smart will out nevertheless?
The cream will rise to the top if the pot is sufficiently stirred.
I'm not convinced that the pipeline will remain active...
S_0,
I think that view of meritocracy is generally correct with the exception of those who make it via cronyism. At some point in most systems what one actually produces matters. But the exceptions also have there greased inside track known by most everyone.
What you produce matters. Who you know matters.
Studies show whether you look and act like the expectation of a smart person also matters.
So much of what counts as success in academia has at its core an arbitrariness. And the. For admissions trying to predict that? Sure, LSATS may be the best indicator we have. But let’s not pretend it’s doing a great job.
The one thing that seems addressable in the feedback loop of looks and acts right so is smart is the incredible primacy of only a few elite institutions. On thing that is not true is that great lawyers only come from Harvard and Yale. But boy do we act like it. In a bipartisan fashion.
The essential problem is that there’s “knowing how to do useful things”, and there’s “knowing how to game the system”. Both require a certain degree of intelligence, but they have radically different implications for the success of a society.
Meritocracy is aimed at advancing the first sort of person. ALL departures from it end up advancing the second sort. Because they DO know how to game the system, and departures from meritocracy enable gaming it.
Dismissing the LSAT as less than perfect is a “knowing how to game the system” move, intended to undercut meritocracy, and open up opportunities to bypass it.
That’s a false choice, as I said in my first sentence. There are plenty of variables beyond game the system and actually good.
To repeat myself, because you missed a lot of my comment: The LSAT predicts to a meh but better than anything else degree if you will get good grades in law school. Whether those grades mean anything about being a good lawyer is unclear.
The essential problem is that there’s “knowing how to do useful things”, and there’s “knowing how to game the system”.
But these are likely to be correlated. Someone who figures out a tricky way to get into law school might well make a good lawyer, of a certain kind.
"So much of what counts as success in academia has at its core an arbitrariness."
Perhaps at the lowest levels that is the case. But as one moves to tenured faculty ranks at the top research universities that arbitrariness approaches zero.
It's arbitrary all the way up from where I sit.
Talking to folks up for tenure, the internal deliberations are full of arbitrary nonsense.
And securing grants is not really a pure test of scientific chops either, especially as you move up to larger and larger ones. Connections, writing ability, access to resources, all factor in. And at the very top, the evaluations get very angels dancing on the head of a pin.
Don't think that the topic of research isn't also political.
While we would all benefit were this research ever done, you won't ever see a grant to evaluate the potential of variance errors in Climate Change research -- half of which would never stand up to an honest content-neutral evaluation.
I strongly disagree. and where you sit is not in a top ranked research university department
"at the very top, the evaluations get very angels dancing on the head of a pin."
To be sure, when the number of slots is very small, the vote is complex. The person's specialization must be consistent with the strategic directions of the department. It must be consistent with the balance of specializations across the department. Yes, it does have some influence from the amount of "service work" for the department, school, and university. It does depend on the quality of publications and recognition of those publications by external scholars.
You, and those up for tenure, may say that those factors are arbitrary because they weigh differently at different times as FTE slots vary. But they are real world issues and not some Scholastic fantasy.
" But as one moves to tenured faculty ranks at the top research universities that arbitrariness approaches zero."
BullBleep! Tenure votes are 100% political -- not D vs. R (although don't be Trumpa R) but favoritism and cronyism -- it's that way all the way back to the start of grad school. Look at how much academic research is unable to be duplicated, which is the basic test OF research. Look at how far into the swamp academia has gone -- if academia represented America, at least 40% of professors would be diehard MAGA.
No, Academia has become as corrupt and morally bankrupt as the Catholic Church had become circa Martin Luther.
For most of human history, that has not been how it works. You are born a serf, you die a serf. The ruling classes can get as stupid and degenerate as they want, yet still retain their status for generations upon generations. Eventually something might happen that rearranges the seats.
Your comment seems to suffer from myopia and bias toward the way things are and have been in recent history. But you may be right still.
If it were not for the LSAT, it seems unlikely that my inflated undergraduate GPA from an unremarkable state school, with a "soft" major, would have gotten me into the top law schools I got into. Or, for that matter, had the successful career I have had since.
Score one for the white, cis guy who did hours of test prep!
This sounds more like a criticism of law school admission policies than a defense of the LSAT.
Real simple way to make this as fair as possible. Keep the LSAT. Remove all question pertaining to race or sex. Eliminate any essay that can be used to determine the ideological bias of the student, and lastly, redact all names from the application and replace with a number before the admissions committee can see them.
Make the process purely about qualification and nothing else.
While I understand your position I am not sure how realistic it is. The powers that be seem convinced that what you call a feature is a bug and vice versa. While not totally so look at something like the NBA which relies on merit as much as any thing I can think of, the result is way too lopsided in terms of race. Same thing goes for things like STEM majors in universities. Even with a huge effort to get minorities and women in STEM majors they are way to white and male for most university admis. On the other hand even while law schools seem convinced it is necessary to favor women and minorities look at the top lawyers, it is hard to think of a woman or minority that is top tier compared to top tier white males.
Imagine how dominant white males would be if society did not bend over backwards to push minorities and women. Wiki from back in the day; and how much has it really changed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvay_Conference
The pix from 1927 is telling; often called the most intelligent photograph ever taken.
ragebot,
That well-know photo is truly amazing as it contains almost all the creators of the foundations of modern physics and no hangers-on.
Nico — That leaves out plenty of the creators of modern physics. Fermi and Lawrence stand as examples for an entire class. Also, Bohr? Chadwick? Feynman? Mendeleev?
Your people were not around for the first Solvay conference. Check the photo of the 5th conference 17 out of 29 attendees got Nobel prizes including Madame Curie who had gotten two Nobels. Lawrence was not a foundational figure in modern physics nor was the chemist Mendeleev. Bohr was at Solvay 5.
Fermi's important work was several years after Solvay 5, but I agree that he was a foundational figure
Feynman came along much later.
What are you trying to prove anyway? That you learned some names of scientists? that you don't know a physicist from a chemist?
Nico — You suppose the periodic table was not a foundational advance in physics as well as in chemistry? Remarkable. You think Chadwick, the discoverer of the neutron, was not a foundational figure? Preposterous.
I doubt any of the foundational figures you admire would agree that your careless, and now carelessly defended, selections are in any way canonical. I suggest a historian of science could show by reference to their papers mutual regard for each other as colleagues on equal footing. Noting that kind of mutual reference was part of the method which contributed to the excellence of Richard Rhodes' remarkable, Making of the Atomic Bomb.
Perhaps what you have done is arbitrarily abbreviate the time interval during which foundational work in physics occurred. But that still leaves unexplained your obtuse assessment of Mendeleev's contribution, right at the outset.
"you suppose the periodic table was not a foundational advance in physics as well as in chemistry? Remarkable. "
Not you are being pathetic if you think that is a foundation of 20th century physics. Of course, those physics explain the periodic table in ways that Meldeleev could never have imagined, because he knew NOTHING of electrons or nuclei or relativistic electrodynamics.
I'll let you have Chadwick, his was a seminal experimental discovery, but Fermi's work with neutrons was far more significant. Lawrence was the founder of big science, but he neither invented the idea of the cyclotron, nor was he the first to get a cyclotron to actually work.
But please continue with your pointless pleading from ignorance. It is amusing. And all because the First Solvay conference predated Chadwick, Lawrence, Feynman, Fermi, etc.
This comment has within it the assumption that white males are better at STEM in some inherent way.
If you make the opposite assumption, you see a janky system of meritocracy that rewards familiarity and connections more than merit.
You white males are just better is not supported. And is in fact deeply racist.
It doesn't require that they be inherently better, just that they happen to be better, for whatever reason. There are a lot of potential reasons. Y chromosome variance theory, accidental correlation of race and culture.
But if the meritocratic tests keep promoting white guys, the claim that they must be bad tests is just ideology speaking. SHOW that they're bad tests.
And, yeah, as it exists our meritocracy is very "janky", because it's continually being compromised by people who don't like it.
If men are genetically better, then lets prove that rather than just have a theory before we act like it.
If not, then we need to think why what we think looks like being so successfulis so tied to being white and male. Because if it's just based on the way we've always assumed as a society where white males were setting the expectation, that seems to be leaving a lot of merit on the table.
if the meritocratic tests keep promoting white guys, the claim that they must be bad tests is just ideology speaking. SHOW that they’re bad tests.
Sure - *if they are truly meritocratic tests* it is remarkable how hard it is to get some folks to challenge the assumption that our current system has a lot of arbitrary stuff it calls merit. Many would rather assume non white guys have an inherent disability.
You seem as an initial condition fundamentally against any kind of deep examination of our current system. Examine why that is.
"If men are genetically better, then lets prove that rather than just have a theory before we act like it."
It is a proven fact that there are more men on both extremes of the IQ curve -- that women tend to center more around the norm.
Translated into English, there are more men both with high IQs and low IQs than women.
But if the meritocratic tests keep promoting white guys, the claim that they must be bad tests is just ideology speaking. SHOW that they’re bad tests.
Not necessarily. I mean, if you assume that the tests measure "merit" then your logic is circular. Shouldn't there be some requirement to SHOW that.
Are test scores correlated with success later in life? And if they are, how do we know it's not just "Good score gets you into Prestigious University. Graduating from PU helps you be successful.
I'm not going all nihilist here. I actually think the tests are worthwhile and do measure general intelligence fairly well. It's that it's not clear to me exactly what attributes schools should be looking for and how the tests relate to those attributes.
What assumptions were made in my post? The pix from 1927 shows those responsible for the modern world we live in and there is only a single female. Everyone in the pix got there due to merit, not because they got some special treatment. In fact Einstein was subject to some bias due to his lack of performance early on (probably due to being bored by his instructors) yet he managed to overcome his early setbacks. To some extent the only woman ,Maria Skłodowska Curie, also suffered from early setbacks as her family's economic situation due to political factors in Poland. Nevertheless the she still rose to the top by merit.
Imagine how dominant white males would be if society did not bend over backwards to push minorities and women.
You didn't just say 'boy white males were successful back in the day' you projected it forwards. That's a huuuge and pretty white male supremacist assumption there.
The problem with that is it assumes women and minorities are inherently inferior and are incapable of competing in mainstream society without putting your thumb on the scales. I simply reject that premise.
I'd contend the current system advances the wrong people regardless of who they are. It is unfair to everyone, those women and minorities in particular, to put them into situations that they are doomed to fail in.
There are plenty of women and minorities who are more than well suited, not because of their status, but because they meet the actual qualifications and there is no need to segregate them for the purposes of admission.
I am reminded of Daniel Patrick Monyahan's "Soft bigotry of low expectations"
The NBA is a poor example for the larger point that I think you're trying to make. It starts from the fact that entry into the NBA is part of a winner-take-all "tournament" process. Tens of thousands of people try for each slot that's available and those who lose get nothing. If, for example, you have a genetic mutation that makes your blood 0.01% more efficient at carrying oxygen, there are enough applicants that this mutation will be strongly selected for even though the actual difference is quite small. (And yes, the NBA does have an anomalously large percentage of players with that mutation.) If that mutation is correlated with one of the genes that also happens to be correlated with skin color, the pictures will appear to show bias on the basis of race even though the selection process was entirely meritorious.
This is different from law schools first because the ratio of applicants to successes is lower and second because it's not a winner-takes-all selection process. A candidate with a low LSAT can still become a lawyer - just at a less prestigious school. And many of them do become top tier lawyers despite their rough starts.
The problem with merit-based admissions is that it takes power away from bureaucrats. It is much harder to enforce
a social agenda when you have the interference of more
objective measures.
The problem is what is merit based admissions in the first place?
It's traditional to wash your hands after a question like that.
Seriously, if you can't measure merit, you have no business running an educational institution, because you won't be able to tell the people you should graduate from the people you should flunk.
It’s not can I measure it, it’s what is it?
It’s gotta be more than will they not flunk. Otherwise, what are we doing here?
Still not following your question: The problem is what is merit based admissions in the first place?
Is it...the definition of the word merit?
Is it...what are the defined objective and subjective criteria we label as 'merit based admission'?
Is it....The relative weightings between them (subjective, objective criteria)?
Is it...something else?
I know what the word merit means, but what are we aiming for when we talk about merit in the academic context.
The ability or inability to measure it has got to come after we figure out what we're trying do.
Like, where does art fit into the system? Are government grants the be-all end-all? What about cross disciplinary studies (currently disincentivized)?
"what are we aiming for"
I'd start with the demonstrated ability to think independently and successfully about issues problems found in the academic context.
What does thinking successfully about problems mean? And what are the problems? And why does it have to be in the academic context that academia is prepping people for? And I'm not sure I like independent as a requirement, though that is how stuff is set up right now I agree...should it be? Purely collaborative people can do some great science.
I'm not saying that there is no such thing as merit - there absolutely is. But we have a really strong 'know it when I see it' problem behind the current thinking.
After the foundational skills of baseline understanding of the discipline, and discipline on your budget etc, I think creativity is actually the biggest value add I see - seeing stuff in new ways, to allow leapfrogging or identifying new subfields, not just incremental progress.
It's an academic context because it's a school. The nominal goal of the admissions office is to select people who will pass the courses and graduate. In an academic context, that's a basic measure of merit.
Schools actually aim do more than prepare you just for being good at school, Brett.
The admissions processes of the school do not, however, Sarcastr0.
Assuming you are correct, should that be what is selected for?
As I noted above, "It’s not can I measure it, it’s what is it?
It’s gotta be more than will they not flunk. Otherwise, what are we doing here?"
"What does thinking successfully about problems mean? And what are the problems? "
You are being purposefully obtuse, S_0. I gave some examples.
As fr creativity, it is hard to judge that in a person who is completely untrained in a field.
My impression is that you simply what to assert that any decision is arbitrary is racist or sexist or transphobic etc. Most people do not believe that any more than they believe that transporting the entire Argentine soccer team to the US would instantly imbue them with "white privilege."
Your post was quite short, and gave no examples.
Creativity is not field specific.
My impression is that you simply what to assert that any decision is arbitrary is racist or sexist or transphobic etc.
Well, that's on you then. Because I have not said that, nor is it my thesis.
I do think the idea that our current system delivers merit is unexamined received wisdom both as to the means and the ends.
Two questions, Don:
1. How do we measure that ability?
2. Is that the right answer when we are talking specifically about law school, rather than the academic arena? Not that lawyers don't find those attributes helpful, especially the "successfully" part, but it looks like the weighting should be different.
For law school let me suggest 10 separate paragraphs (the evidence) followed by 10 questions. The answer to each question is to be determined from the 10 paragraphs.
The test is judged by double blind procedures.
I disagree.
Before you can measure something you have to define it, and it's not at all clear to me there is a clear definition from the university's POV.
And then you have to figure out how to measure it. You can't just hook someone up to a voltmeter.
The problem is that there are major disparities between Black, White, Hispanic, and Asian academic achievement as early as 3rd grade, and the gaps don’t shrink as kids get older.
We have yet to find a way to fix that issue, and a lot of people would like to pretend it doesn’t exist. It’s not enough for a school to have the right racial distribution, they want to be able to tell themselves that achieving that distribution required at most a minor thing on the scales.
Standardized tests make that pleasant fiction impossible to believe.
There is merit in Harvard psychologist Howard Gardner's concept of multiple intellegences.
Those disparities start way later if you control for class and location.
They do still show up. But late enough that bell curve shit looks a lot more socially based,
But you knew that, right?
Well, yeah, obviously a lot of is is socially based, in the sense that the culture you're raised in has an enormous amount to do with how successful you are in life. At this point it's not clear that it's 100% cultural, though some people are ideologically committed to that conclusion.
If success is so culturally oriented, we should look at what we're counting as success and widen our aperture there.
At this point it’s not clear that it’s 100% cultural, though some people are ideologically committed to that conclusion.
The Bell Curve sucks, Brett.
Until we have actual evidence that blacks are intellectually inferior, lets not go all white supremacist and assume they are, eh?
"If success is so culturally oriented, we should look at what we’re counting as success and widen our aperture there."
Categorically, no. Say you're training civil engineers, and you find that cultures that emphasize hard work and getting right answers produce more successful civil engineering graduates. Redefining success is going to result in bridges falling down.
Engineering, law, medicine, chemistry, you name it: These fields exist to get important work done. Not to validate your theories about a just racial distribution.
Every culture emphasizes hard work and not being wrong.
I'd argue that folks who are so dedicated to grinding that they don't have lives are actually bad educational outcomes for quite a few reasons.
No one is talking about foregrounding the lazy and wrong. Helluva thing to bring up when talking about racial and gender disparities, too! Those blacks, with their culture of lazy wrongness...Jesus.
"Every culture emphasizes hard work and not being wrong."
I have related before that we had neighbors who took their kids out of public school and sent them to parochial school, despite not being Catholic, because when they did their homework they were harassed for 'acting white'. The culture at that school is not emphasizing hard work, and that culture is going to leave the remaining kids lagging behind for their whole lives. And that school, alas, wasn't some extreme outlier.
"I’d argue that folks who are so dedicated to grinding that they don’t have lives are actually bad educational outcomes for quite a few reasons."
Nothing the matter with work life balance. We gave up a lot of income over the decades so we could ramble around the mountains. But, you need to accept the consequences. For one example, we know someone who got tired of the rat race, changed from a well paid career to a part time yoga instructor many years ago, and now that she is in her mid fifties is looking at a pretty constrained retirement. Her attitude is that society is unfair and should have even more transfer payments than the ones she is already getting. I don't see why people who are working hard at careers less remunerative that the one she abandoned should have to give up their leisure to subsidize her leisure.
Yes, we all hear stories about acting white and academic success. First, there are enough counterexamples in the black community that's clearly not something to generalize about.
Second, Brett didn't say getting good grades, he said working hard and not being wrong. Those are vastly more fundamental things than grades, at least as this discussion is framed.
Work life balance makes for better researchers, and better lawyers. A system that incentivizes working infinity hours is a bad system that will produce bad outcomes and elevate bad employees.
Of course there are individual lazy people; that along has not much cultural valence - those types are present across any culture.
"folks who are so dedicated to grinding that they don’t have lives are actually bad educational outcomes"
You sure know how to construct bogus windmills to tilt at.
The grind thing was a proviso on the more general hard work statement, which I thought was a trivial requirement for merit.
Were you responding to some other comment?
I was noting the desire of University administration to ignore inconvenient facts. And of course the disparities have a major class component - class in America is just a mix of education and wealth, which is a pretty good predictor of how one’s kids will do in school.
Racial disparities in education are a really big problem in America, and they are based on real disparities in fundamental academic skills. Pretending the problem doesn’t exist (as Universities are attempting to do), or implying that acknowledging its existence is somehow unseemly (as you are attempting to do) prevents us from finding solutions. Stop being part of the problem.
https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2021-11-05.html#07c
there are major disparities between Black, White, Hispanic, and Asian academic achievement as early as 3rd grade, and the gaps don’t shrink as kids get older.
This ignores confounding variables. It is not useful information regarding racial disparities, without additional context.
So, you're finally willing to give up on disparate impact as a measure of discrimination?
Seems to me what I said supports just the opposite approach.
I afraid that is not with "disparate impact" arguments posit. You're running away from the common assertions about "equity."
I'm talking about what I see and my positions. I don't think a lot about equity - I think about neglected talent pools and nonstandard perspectives.
I just really wish the tolerant left could be intellectually honest, and say "more black people" instead of trying to hide their intentions by gaslighting us with the word diversity.
Telepathic insights like this are more telling in the commenter.
The White House has new initiatives on blacks and Hispanics. But the Obama admin included Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, women. Check out the EPSCoR program - it’s about state of domicile diversity!
There is a big push regarding Asians right now because of post Covid hostility that makes them drop out of their American PhD programs.
Given what the schools are defending in court, it's hardly telepathic.
What schools are defending seems more determined by who is suing them over what, Brett.
But sure, go with schools are only into more blacks. Takes away any doubt what the real issue is.
Racial discrimination in college admissions?
There is a very utilitarian way to look at this, I suppose.
I could care less what goes in (using LSAT as a screening criteria for admissions); I care only what comes out (a lawyer who gets my desired legal result). I assure you, the marketplace ultimately respects results; put simply, did you get the legal result your client wanted? If not, read on...
There are plenty of mediocre and unaccomplished and/or 'former/recovering' lawyers out there who could not cut it, and moved to another career.
Got bad news for you about what law school aims for. It's more for academia than for practice.
Maybe we need to distinguish between what I will term base merit and exceptional merit. In an earlier post I mentioned the Solvay Conference which caters to exceptional merit and is dominated by white males. Even in what I will call base merit (stuff like basic reading, writing, and math skills) there are not the equality of results the SJWs would like. In fact at the really lower range of merit minorities seem to dominate.
No question the basic skills need to excel are determined by factors like family values (Mom reading to small children as one example) and the economic situation. But that still does not explain what happens at the high end of STEM jobs.
In 1927 high end STEM jobs were only allowed to go to white males.
You can't use that as an example of anything other than that such an effect is still there.
There are lots of explanations for why STEM is white male dominated other than some inherent white male talent.
Who is expected to drop out of school to care for kids? What kind of person gets called on in class? Why do students tend to respond better to teachers that look like them? That only scratches the surface. Lots and lots of studies on this stuff.
STEM today is dominated by white males only if you consider Indian and Chinese men in STEM to be white.
Principle Investigators – the professors winning grants – are still quite a bit whiter and maler than the US average. As is the government leadership managing science research efforts.
So ragebot is right on his demographic point, as far as that goes.
Well said.
The LSAT shouldn't need defending. It's been there for some 70 years, for good reason. As others suggested it is probably the best standardized test there is. It is the only meritocratic and objective piece of law school admissions. UGPA is not very meaningful.
But of course that is the very reason it must go.
A degree of meritocracy, like many exceptional societal qualities, is a historical aberration. An outlier. So we are just regressing to the mean.
The LSAC boasts that the LSAT is the best predictor of first year law school performance. But the author says that at Yale students received only pass/fail grades in the first semester.
So where is the data for LSAC's claim?
Here:
https://www.lsac.org/data-research/research/lsat-still-most-accurate-predictor-law-school-success
Most law schools have 1st year grades on a curve, not P/F.
I believe Yale was pretty much alone in having Pass/Fail a short time ago. Then Berkeley did some hybrid which I believe still differentiated the top 1/3 of the class and maybe also top 1/10 or something. Some more schools may have changed things since then too.
A lot of love for meritocracy showing up here. Some questions for the would-be meritocrats:
– Is the Congress empowered to enact meritocracy by law?
– If it is so empowered, must the Congress define merit unambiguously to make its law legally enforceable?
– Can the courts impose meritocracy regardless of congress? If so, on what legal principle? What are the limits of that?
– Doesn't the concept of meritocracy require long-term agreement from the majority that they are less entitled to education, jobs, status, fortune, office, and honors than are the meritorious minority? If so, how do you make that stick in any system where an electoral majority decides who makes which policies?
1) Yes. It's not a question relevant to anything, but yes. (You still can't understand the difference between non-discrimination and meritocracy.)
2) Unambiguously? No.
3) No. Again, not a question relevant to anything, but no.
4) I think most people understand the concept of desert. As long as the rules are clear and enforced evenly and fairly. And as long as the pie continues to grow, so that it's not a zero sum game.
"Doesn’t the concept of meritocracy require long-term agreement from the majority that they are less entitled to education, jobs, status, fortune, office, and honors than are the meritorious minority? If so, how do you make that stick in any system where an electoral majority decides who makes which policies?"
People vary quite a bit in their intelligence, but an overwhelming majority are smart enough to realize that, for example, admitting people to med school by lottery irrespective of merit isn't in their best interest, even if they aren't personally bright enough to make the cut.