The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Would a Carbon Tax Kill Jobs?
A new study examines what happened in British Columbia, while a second looks at how to ensure "revenue neutrality."
A new study forthcoming in Climate Change Economics sheds light on the question of whether the adoption of a rebated or revenue-neutral carbon tax would reduce employment levels. The abstract of the paper "Do Carbon Taxes Kill Jobs? Firm-Level Evidence from British Columbia," by Deven Azevedo, Hendrik Wolff, and Akio Yamazaki reads:
This paper investigates the employment impacts of British Columbia's revenue neutral carbon tax. Using the synthetic control method with firm-level data, we find considerable heterogeneity in employment responses to the policy. We show that firm size matters. In particular, the carbon tax had a negative impact on large emission-intensive firms, but simultaneous tax cuts and transfers increased the purchasing power of low income households, substantially benefiting small businesses in the service sector and food/clothing manufacturing. Furthermore, we find that aggregate employment was not adversely affected by the policy. Our results provide additional insight for the "job-shifting hypothesis" of revenue neutral carbon taxes.
And here is an excerpt from their discussion section:
Our analysis shows that the BC carbon tax led the emission-intensive manufacturing sectors, particularly these sectors' large companies, to contract while it boosted employment in small businesses in the service sectors and the manufacturing (food + clothing) sector (a non-emission-intensive manufacturing sector). These "job shifts" were due to the differing impact of each of the four components of the overall BC carbon tax policy. The carbon tax itself caused reductions in employment in emission-intensive industries; income tax reductions and low carbon credits put more money into the pockets of poorer households which was spent on small day-to-day purchases, such as massage services, chiropractors, and restaurants which disproportionately benefitted the service sector; and the reduction in the small business tax, funded by the carbon tax, led to the positive employment effect we find in the small business sector.
Another recent study, "Is Revenue Neutrality in Carbon Taxation Possible in Practice? Lessons from the Canadian Experience," by Joel Wood, also draws lessons from the Canadian experience. This abstract reads:
While the potential economic efficiency, equity, and political acceptability benefits of a revenue-neutral carbon tax have been well studied, a deeper question remains about the feasibility of revenue neutrality in practice. This article provides perspective on this issue by assessing different definitions of revenue neutrality and presenting an in-depth discussion of the motivations for the adoption of revenue-neutral carbon taxes. Two examples of carbon taxes and revenue recycling implemented in Canada are examined: British Columbia's revenue-neutral carbon tax (a carbon tax with offsetting tax cuts) and the Canadian federal government's fuel charge and climate action incentive tax credit (a carbon tax and dividend). The BC case serves to highlight the inherent difficulties of assessing revenue neutrality owing to uncertainty about what would have occurred in the absence of the tax. As time passes following initial implementation of the tax, it becomes increasingly difficult to determine whether, and to what extent, government revenue, income tax rates, the overall tax structure, and the tax base might have differed had the tax not been adopted. The federal example suggests that a carbon tax and dividend policy would be better able to ensure revenue neutrality.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
So no net reduction in jobs, and burden shifted from poorer individuals and smaller businesses to large industry.
Seems like a good realignment to me. The taxing power for policy purposes. Who woulda thunk it other than CJ Robert’s
The catch is in the transition costs.
I expect the usual suspects to insist this is a hoax or something because their view of policy is driven less be impacts than their worldview spanning ideology. No exceptions! Oy.
Sure, it’s swell to wipe out high paying industrial jobs and replace them with low paying service jobs.
Perfect for people who love their redistribution, but not so hot for the overall economy.
Current tax policy creates the current wealth distribution. While changing that policy would indeed mean redistribution, you need to assume the current distribution is good to get to your conclusion.
Which, when it comes to energy policy, is you all over. Deregulation of oil and coal and gas always good, and externalities or actual outcomes no matter.
Holy assumption, Batman!! For the record, the last TRRC election I voted in (2020) I voted for a democrat – a female no less – who thought the industry was flaring away too much natural gas in the Permian Basin and thought they should be made to reduce their flaring. I agreed with that concept even when I was working in the industry so she got my vote. So saying I think that “deregulation of oil and gas is always good, etc” is, simply put, completely full of shit. Once again you are projecting your political one-sidedness on to me and once again you’re 180 degrees wrong. I’ve given up on hoping you’ll stop because you can’t help yourself. Can’t get your brain out of that partisan track.
And no, current regulation does not determine the distribution of income. The market does. Jobs in which you create things of value have always paid better than jobs in which you don’t.
As to the job question, I think that giving up your high paying engineer or manufacturing job and replacing it with waiting tables or working at convenience stores is going backwards. You’re apparently fine as long as nobody is actually accumulating wealth from their work.
What is your definition of backwards? Also service industry means a lot of things…And you seem to be assuming a 1-1 exchange. Lots of assumptions to get to your conclusion. Which is the expected one!
I have never seen an energy related topic in this blog where you were not only arguing against regulation of oil and gas, but extremely agro about it. Maybe I am making assumptions, but there is no shortage of supportive data.
I don't recall ever having debated regulation of oil and gas on here. I don't remember it ever having come up. I think your supportive data is all in your head. I am certainly not a one-way Drill, Baby, Drill type as you are fabricating out of thin air. My thoughts about the industry are much more complicated than that. But you don't do nuance. Politics don't allow for it.
The only energy thing I've discussed on here is the folly of Biden's doomed, disastrous energy policy, which has nothing to do with deregulation. And I've even quit doing that for the same reason I don't argue theology with hard core Catholics. No point arguing with religious beliefs - it's just a waste of breath (or in this case, pixels).
Classic Sarcastro. Assume things about what a person believes, in order to strawman the position.
I don't see anything here that talks about how the differing jobs pay.
Some service sector jobs don't pay so badly, and an increase in service sector revenues might also encourage entrepreneurship. Small businesses can be pretty productive.
Besides, if reducing emissions is a desirable goal, then to some degree those allegedly high-paying jobs were the result of freeloading by emitting pollutants without paying the cost.
I don't think your claim is supported at all by these abstracts.
bernard,
Engineering jobs and their equivalents in the industrial sector have salaries higher than the bulk of service jobs. Even journey-level jobs in the trades and crafts do better than the bulk of service jobs. That is no mystery.
The question that S_0 does not discuss is "where do industrial jobs go?" and what are the consequences. If you are looking at Canada vs. the PRC, the industrial economy moves to China.
How about the US vs PRC? I have never seen a credible in depth study of that .
I favor a carbon tax at the energy source; that includes birth to death taxes on components of renewable technologies that are not taxed at their source. That tax gets passed along as prices down the line. People who use energy intensive products pay the price for those. So I do not see how redistribution of jobs happens, except with respect to countries such as the PRC that do no levy an equivalent tax and to not let the market adjust prices downstream. Neither do I see how any distribution that happens actually addresses so-called equity concerns except in the minds of ideologues.
If the result in the US would be a significant downsizing of the US industrial sector that would be a big negative and would change my opinion.
Supply is not an independent variable. China is a manufacturing economy unable to meet its domestic industrial needs as of yet, though maybe you have seen some info I have not and that is where your PRC thesis comes from.
Nico -"Engineering jobs and their equivalents in the industrial sector have salaries higher than the bulk of service jobs. Even journey-level jobs in the trades and crafts do better than the bulk of service jobs. That is no mystery."
Concur - Typical industry jobs pay better than service industry. Its also quite informative (by ommission) in the BC study that employment levels stayed the same, but no mention was made of A) of changes in compensation or B) changes in hours worked.
If compensation levels stayed the same, the study would likely have mentioned it.
Similar issue with the most of the minimum wage studies - always mentioning that employment levels remained the same, but no mention of reduction in hours worked
DON,
Of course "engineering jobs and their equivalents in the industrial sector have salaries higher than the bulk of service jobs."
But why assume that all the jobs lost in the industrial sector are high-level jobs, and all the new ones in the service sector are low-level? Service companies hire managers, engineers, and so on also.
Note too that the hit is to "emission-intensive" industries. It is transportation, not manufacturing, which is the most carbon-intensive sector, and electricity production is up there as well.
People aren't assuming "all the jobs lost in the industrial sector are high-level jobs, and all the new ones in the service sector are low-level"
People are saying (as you do), those jobs lost in the industrial sector are on average, higher paying than those gained in the service sector.
If the price of gasoline rises, shipping costs will rise. But there is no reason to believe that the numbers of drivers on the road will decrease much barring massive expansion of the rail system. Rates for drivers are now in the $80K to $100k range. Engineers and designers are over $100K. Senior engineers are nearly $200k. So unless you want to count goldman sachs associates as being in the service sector, the average is not getting very high. Skilled mechanics get paid well. Of course warehouse workers get poor salaries, but it is very hard to believe that the average service worker makes more the the average industrial sector worker even including bluecollar jobs.
Also I think that you underestimate how energy intensive manufacturing is once you pass along all the impact of an at the source energy tax. (for example it folds in increases in transportation costs.)
Bernard, to adapt a Steve Martin joke - what is a phrase you never hear? “Hey, look, it’s the busboy’s Porsche!”
It’s a statistical fact that manufacturing and (particularly) energy jobs pay better than most service jobs. Particularly the blue collar jobs.
The abstracts didn’t mention that the sun rises in the East either. Some things are just commonly known.
Consider the possibility that an exchange of industrial jobs for service sector jobs might not be one-for-one. Depending on differences in infrastructure in the relevant sectors, plus wage differences, the ratio of exchange could even be pretty high, to pick an example out the air, how about 5 new service jobs for the loss of one industrial job? Would that be worth considering? Or at least thinking about to see if it could work that way?
So, someone loses out on one industrial job, so they need to take on two (or more) service jobs to make up the difference?
Not seeing that as a win.
Let’s say that every one industrial job lost is replaced by, say, three service jobs. That doesn’t seem possible because the disappearance of high paying jobs means less money floating around the economy and therefore less need for service, but for the sake of discussion let’s grant that this is true.
So what? Instead of some people living comfortably and saving a little bit instead everyone is all struggling to get by together. You consider this a good thing?
bevis — Depends on how it works out. Some restaurant service jobs pay really, really well. Some people struggle without any job. Some industrial jobs get supported by so much capital investment that an exchange for more jobs would enable re-allocation of a lot of capital to each of several new jobs of whatever kind. It's complicated.
Here is another problem that exchange for more jobs would definitely help fix, and it's a big one. Automation is on course to shrink employment notably. To the extent that happens, all the social safety nets which depend on taxing income, either from employees directly, or from employers, will be hastened toward bankruptcy. The political system will not likely ever choose policy to zero out Social Security. An economic system which does not act proactively to changing conditions could do that willy-nilly, with socially disastrous results.
The BC study showed employment levels stayed the same - that negates your argument in support of 5 new service jobs for loss of one industry job
Hey, but that busboy gets his name in the Phone book! He's really arrived!
He's REALLY arrived when he gets it taken OUT of the phone book, i.e. unlisted number...
Bevis,
Please see my response to Don Nico above.
Also consider this somewhat abstract, but relevant, IMO, point. XYZ Industries emits a lot of carbon. When the carbon tax comes in they choose to cut back on some of their less profitable work, and reduce staffing accordingly.
Why did they do that? Obviously, because what they cut was no longer profitable once they had to pay the tax. But suppose the tax matches the harm their emissions cause. Then there really was no social benefit to the work they cut. They were freeloading, in effect, on being exempt from paying for some of the resources they were using.
Indeed, to the extent this encourages the creation of service sector jobs there is a net benefit, because resources are more efficiently allocated. That’s what a price system is supposed to do.
Plus, what I should have put in my comment to Don, but didn't, is that the expansion of the service sector - or rather the small business sector generally - also creates opportunities for entrepreneurs. More burger flippers, maybe, but also more franchise owners.
XYZ Ind emits carbon dioxide.
Please be at least honest when posing your hypotheticals.
Well, yeah. I didn't mean to suggest there were chunks of coal (or diamonds) coming out of the smokestack.
Solid carbon can (and used to) come out of smokestacks. It was often called "soot."
Yup, KHP, everyone knows that. But costs and taxes are typically cited in $/C by weight.
You can say that about anything. Raise taxes high enough, and you make it not cost effective to heat homes.
That doesn't mean there's no social benefit to heating homes.
"Raise taxes high enough, and you make it not cost effective to heat homes."
Raise taxes high enough and the elderly will freeze to death.
Of course, Canada's MAID* is a solution to that -- kill them first.
*Medical Assistance In Dying. Seriously....
Bernard, it’s reasonable to think that it’s complicated and that my assertion was a simplification of what the study identified and yes obviously as the effects of the tax start to bite lower margin projects will go first.
I just object to losing high pay jobs and saying that meh pay jobs replace them. Given globalization and offshoring North America is already short of jobs for a certain demographic. The type of jobs that historically gave that demographic a comfortable middle class life. That loss generated a lot of anger among flyover folks that have lead to stuff like Brexit and Trump.
Our “elites” have abandoned those people and those people sense it and resent it. And the elites either are too insulated or don’t care, because we keep saying those trade offs are fine when they really aren’t.
“Sure, it’s swell to wipe out high paying industrial jobs and replace them with low paying service jobs. “
There is a larger issue that people are forgetting with this — industrial jobs actually PRODUCE something, while service jobs involve SERVING OTHERS — the question I ask is whom.
What I fear is that we progress into an almost feudalistic society where there are a small group of people to be served and the rest of us consigned to a servant class. We could argue as to the stability of such a society, but it definitely won’t be one reflecting our American birthright.
Remember that it would be one thing if we were actually MAKING all of this green garbage over here, but we aren't -- we are buying it from the Chinese and does anyone remember when a similar country (Japan) returned all the Ford car doors (scrap metal) that we'd let them buy?
Started off at 14 delivering newspapers and bussing tables at the Officer's club (were supposed to be 16, but my Dad was an Officer so got "Legacied")
Now I provide amnesia/anal-gesia/anesthesia/and it's the last one everyone forgets "Attenuation of Sympathetic Reflexes", just like a Waiter, "I'm Frank, and I'll be doing your General Anesthesia, I have a nice Sufentanil drip, with a sprig of Isoflurane, and just enough Vecuronium to keep you from coughing, can I interest you in a pre-anesthetic Interscalene Block?"
Not much different really, get up early in the morning, take shit from obnoxious drunks, have trouble collecting my pay, New Boss, same as the Old Boss,
Frank "I left the PCA in your room, if somebody stole it that's your problem"
You know what else is bad for the overall economy? Guess. Go on.
Brandon???
I wasn't even going to say Republicans, but going by recent history, I could have...
Were you in a Coma from Jan 2017-Jan 2021 or just chronically addled?
In the time it took you to type that you exhaled 3ml/kg/min of C02 into the Troposphere, unless you were holding your breath, and even then, unless you're dead, you'll make up for it when you start breathing again. Maybe not as much CO2 as my ZO6 (I'd tell you what that is but then....) but then again I don't drive my ZO6 24-7.
Long way of saying, you want to know who's putting all the CO2 in the atmosphere, you're lookin at him.
Frank
And there is the presumption that CO2 is bad -- or raises temperatures.
They are just GUESSING that it does -- no one knows if the historical temperature rise or the CO2 rise came *first*.
Then plants NEED CO2, they use it (and sunlight) to grow (remember the 1970s when people were talking to their plants) -- and this includes the plants in the ocean that everything from herring to whales eat (to live) -- and more plants are not a bad thing.
Personally, I'd listen if (a) they hadn't been wrong twice before and (b) they weren't so damn ideological about it. But they are, so I don't.
No, they are not guessing, it's established scientific fact.
Like Judeo/Christian Theology is established fact? Modern Physics has proven much of the Book of Genesis to be right.
While Global Cooling/Global Warming/Climate Change indicates that your side can't even make up its mind let alone has proven anything.
Hint: Look at Nazi Science — silencing your critics does not mean that your science is right….
Modern physics has proven climate change is occurring and geting worse, and has done so over and over again, and has cross-disciplinary support. 'My side' hasn't changed it's mind about anything, every day brings further proof of the reality.
As I recall the Trump administration worked quite hard to censor climate change, as a phrase and as a scientific reality, out of all government-supported or -related scientific reports and studies. Speaking of trying to silence people.
This includes the schmucks at UMass Amherst.
Enough said???
I'm sure it's enough for you.
Modern Physics has proven much of the Book of Genesis to be right.
WTF?
Bang, Big, That Shit, Google
Also Noah's Flood: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/evidence-for-a-flood-102813115/
Nige 's comment - "Nige 3 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"No, they are not guessing, it’s established scientific fact."
150 years of moderately high correlation with rising co2 and temps
a few million years with near zero correlation which changes in co2 and temps
A few million years with moderately high correlation with TSI , orbital tilt changes, etc and temps.
6k or so years with moderately high correlation with TSI including the last 150 years
Its it really a "scientific fact " proven, or likely or speculative?
fwiw - far too much is unknown at this point.
No, it's proven.
Saying it's proven doesn't mean it's proven
Al Sharpton is an Anti-Semitic Homofobic Fuck Stick,
See, even though Al Sharpton is an Anti-Semitic Homofobic Fuck Stick, saying it doesn't prove it, you'd have to find some VHS (remember VHS?) tapes from the early 90's, where he called the ancient Greeks Cocksuckers (not that there (was) anything wrong with that) Jewish Moneylenders (We prefer the term "Same Day Cash"(and next week broken legs) and.. isn't that enough??
OK, still voted for him in the 2004 "D" Primary, as a Goof, (and he was better than the alternatives)
Frank
I'm not the one saying it's proven, scientists are.
You don’t know anything about science. Real scientists rarely speak in absolutes.
And those real scientists are saying climate change is real, and caused by human CO2 emissions.
Nige - climate change has absolutely been proven
The cause is still open to legitimate scientific debate
Note the short term period of correlation with co2 and temp
Note the extremely long term period of correlation with tsi, orbital tilts, etc and temps
Of course it's still open for scientific debate - but your arguments all lost and keep losing.
not by honest scientists
But you wouldnt know that since you get your science info from sources as the CNN, NPR, skeptical science , real climate and other activist "science " sites masquarading as science.
You are not an authority to declare many scientists are lying.
It just makes you a crank.
And you get all your cimate science from a tiny hamster that lives in your tummy.
Pfizer has a podcast called "Science will Win".
I bet you listen to it religiously.
I bet you stand on your head and play the kazoo.
"Seems like a good realignment to me. The taxing power for policy purposes."
OK.
How about reimposing church taxes -- if you (and your children) don't show up for church on Sunday, you get hit with a $5000 fine. (Or go to synagogue on Saturday, but the Rabbi has to vouch for you and state you did all the required Jewish things.)
This was once done, and going to church never hurt anyone -- I argue that it would be good for more teenagers to go to *a* church -- any church -- on a regular basis.
So if you're going to tax me to support your religion of Carbon Dioxide, I should be able to tax you to support my religion of Jesus Christ -- there really is no difference.
NONE as you are basing your beliefs on faith, just like I am.
So pay the $5000 fine for not going to church, and we can redistribute it along the same lines as proposed.
This is just untrue. Completely. Calling it a religion doesn't make it less real, but it does, ironically, imply that your religion is as unreal as you're trying to make climate change out to be.
There is a scintilla of evidence supporting my religion.
There is NONE supporting yours....
NONE, he says. Wow. The fossil fuel industry wasted a lot of money down the years lying and supressing NONE evidence.
" The abstract of the paper "Do Carbon Taxes Kill Jobs? Firm-Level Evidence from British Columbia," by Deven Azevedo, Hendrik Wolff, and Akio Yamazaki reads:"
The study comes across very much as an advocacy study.
1) It states that employment levels dont change (at least not statisitically significant)
2) it makes no mention of Changes in hours worked ( a common deficiency in minimum wage studies).
3) it does mention that the minimum wage studies dont show a change in employment - but omits the change in hours worked, a major deficiency in similar card/krueger study of minimum wage.
4) in makes no mention of changes in compensation levels of the lost jobs vs the new service level jobs.
5) unable to find any mention of the increase in jobs for the cost of compliance .
6) no mention of the distortions to the market economy
Bottom line - its just another variation of a tax policy shifting wealth from one sector to another sector.
Given the wage differentials, a better description is probably that this tax destroyed engines of wealth creation and replaced them with jobs involving asking "would you like fries with that?"
"So no net reduction in jobs, and burden shifted from poorer individuals and smaller businesses to large industry."
I don't see how that follows at all, depending on the form of the tax and where and when it is levied.
Taxing carbon at the source will do no more to change the mix of activity in the economy than the VAT does in the EU. In fact since the at the source tax is levied only once and its consequences are passed along, it should cause less realignment that the EU VAT.
Don Nico 13 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"“So no net reduction in jobs, and burden shifted from poorer individuals and smaller businesses to large industry."
Nico - The BC study was big on mentioning that there was no reduction in employment.
Quite telling was the ommission any reference to compensation changes in the study. - Several items in the study and several items missing in the study shows it was an advocacy piece for a carbon tax. Very prominent in the multitude of pro - minimum wage increase studies is A) noting that employment rates stay the same or comparable and B) the omission of any mention in the reduction of hours worked.
In sum the study backs up what you are stating.
What's missing: The pay for the industries that lost jobs vs. the industries that gained jobs. The service sector typically pays half what the steel industry pays.
So you expect more jobs but not as well paying? I’m not sure you can make that blanket statement about service jobs.
And service was only one of the sectors that benefitted in the study.
"the service sector typically pays half what the steel industry pays."
That's partially because of value -- I can fry my own hamburger, I can't manufacture my own carriage bolts...
My God, what a revelation!
You tax companies, they make less money.
You give tax money to people, they have more money.
whodathunkit?
Anything in the report about how the "employment in small businesses in the service sectors and the manufacturing (food + clothing) sector" will fare when the energy producers have been taxed out of business?
In the study, no one got taxed out of business.
This is what I meant about ideology overwriting results.
Right, "on the margin" is a nonsense concept.
Check out the study Brett, don’t just make up whatever your ideology insists must be true.
Responding to the comment is not high on your priorities, I guess.
Brett talks about all the energy producers going out of business. I point him to the study. Twice.
So yeah, I’m not responding to his made up things. We have data. Data beats ideology.
Data's bullshit, you can prove whatever you want to. When the oil runs out (it won't, "Non renewable"??? so you're a Creationist now?? Jay-hey/Hey-Zeuss/Allah created all the oil we'll ever have on the 5th day??) but if it did, we'll do something else, and if "Global Warming" ever happens (it won't, other than the eternal ebb/flow of Solar flares, precession of the Equinoxes) we'll figure that out too (actually like it a little warmer, got a gig in Buffalo next week :()
Frank
Reality is that something like 90% of electric power is lost -- 20-30% of a power plant's capacity is used to generate the magnetic fields necessary to generate the electricity (think your car alternator). There is a 10% loss every time you go through a transformer and there are at least three -- one to step up the voltage at the power plant, one at the substation (the things being shot at) to reduce it to something like 13,600 (8,700 to ground) to run along the streets, and then a third in the street to reduce it to the 120/240* for your house.
And then there is the leakage out of the high-tension lines (the voltage is so high that it literally leaks out) and the loss of resistance in all of the wires (why we went with AC and the ability to boost voltages). And then much of the electricity you actually use is wasted as heat -- motors and such actually have to be cooled (usually by air) but there is that much loss.
Superconductors are the solution -- and we aren't that far from having them! MIT apparently actually HAS them with the ones they are using for electromagnets in their fusion research -- and that technology can be applied elsewhere.
With superconductors, we wouldn't have all this loss. We likely would still have to boost voltage due to volume (AxV=W) but otherwise -- heck we could wire our houses for the low voltage DC that all of our electronics (including our LED lights) actually use. Our motors -- washing machines, HVAC, whatever, would become 90 times more efficient and we would need a whole lot less electricity.
We just wouldn't have the leftists telling us that we have to sacrifice our lifestyles -- and hence, I'm not expecting this anytime soon.
---------
*The ground is a center tap in the secondary -- which (in English) means that everything in your house is essentially 240 volts, with the majority of it being 120 wired in series with another 120 circuit (120+120=240) with the DIFFERENCE between the two sides of your fusebox going to ground. That's how you can have two (black) wires coming in and only one (uninsulated) wire going back out.
This dates back to the days of Edison and DC -- which could NOT go through a transformer. So he sent the higher voltage (220) out because it went further, and then had his customers wired in series so that they actually were only dealing with 110 volts. When Westinghouse's AC took over, they kept the existing wiring -- and somehow 110 got to 118 and was called 120 -- not sure as to why.
"the voltage is so high that it literally leaks out" [emphasis added]
That's nonsense. Losses due to leakage, whether through insulation or capitative effects, are proportional to voltage.
And higher at high voltages, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YmFHAFYwmY
That helo is not grounded, and yet look at the arc when it DISCONNECTS from the line...
You say it's nonsense, and then confirm it's true. And I bet you didn't even notice you did it.
Brett -- see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DIjsB3eu-Y
It takes energy to light those florescent tubes -- if it isn't leaking out of the lines overhead, then where is it coming from?
"We have data. "
No, you have the writing of the authors of one study. And skip the royal "we."
No, Don, they can tell you what the "Earth's Temperature" (How do get a Thermometer in Newark?) was 5 billion years ago, and what it'll be 5 billion years from now (hey, just tell me how much Georgia's gonna beat Ohio State by? I'm thinking 25) but what was the temperature in Filthy-Delphia PA on July 4, 1776??, wasn't that long ago in the big scheme of things, no NWS/Weather channel then, but they had Newspapers, just one of you Poindexters (not you, Godfather, I mean Don Nico) provide me a link...
Frank "Bah, Humbug!"
Greenland was also called "Vinland" because there were so many grapes (used to make wine) growing there.
What was the 2022 grape harvest on Greenland???
Enough said?
It was literally viking propaganda to lure settlers over, there's a reason the colony there didn't turn out to be viable.
Yeah, great, so you don't know the Temp in Filthydelphia July 4, 1776 (here something important happened that day?) either
and I don't get it, so its COLDER in Greenland now? So AlGore was wrong (as Usual), the Earth's Hypothermic, well you don't even have to be a fake Doctor like Jill Biden to know the cure for Hypothermia,
Excuse me, need to start up my ZO6
Frank
Nige -- do not confuse the Viking settlement in what is now the Canadian Province of New Brunswick with the Greenland settlement.
Sure, calling it "Greenland" was propaganda, but for a while it was at least HALF true; The place had enough of a summer you could raise crops. That's why the Vikings WERE able to live there for a long while, their settlements didn't die out until the climate got colder.
Brett has less than that. He just has ideology.
My point stands. A study beats no study just ipse digit.
Not if it's flawed.
Insisting it is flawed without an evidence or argument other than yiu dint like the result is just ideology again.
"Brett talks about all the energy producers going out of business."
That's interesting. WHERE did I talk about all the energy producers going out of business? I'm sort of missing that.
Now explain why a company on the margin should be subsidized by society by being allowed to emit lots of carbon cost-free.
Should they also not have to pay their rent?
Because Carbon is essential for life, and in particular, CO2. Plants take in CO2, and powered by sunlight, produce O2 and carbohydrates, which are both essential for animal life. We are coming out of an Ice Age, where lack of CO2 in the atmosphere negatively affected plant growth, and thus how many animals, and, thus humans, the Earth could support. Our far bigger threat, than the (ridiculous) claim that the Earth is heating up due to the effects of excess CO2 (which lags, not leads, global temperature) is that there are indications that we are very possibly heading into another mini-Ice Age. Pretending that excess CO2 in the atmosphere is harmful based on its effects in a laboratory is not science, but sciency cargo cult religion.
What he said
It is also possible that we are facing a polar reversal -- we are overdue for one and the magnetic north pole is moving so much that they are having to renumber some airport runways (which use the first two digits of the heading).
Bernard,
Obviously, they shouldn't be so subsidized.
"Now explain why a company on the margin should be subsidized by society by being allowed to emit lots of carbon cost-free."
First you explain to me what the hell the government is doing to be owed this money in the first place.
Are they running an immense system of nuclear powered carbon reducers, reversing combustion reactions, and filling fossil fuel reserves, so that the only reason you can burn that fuel in the first place is that the government was creating it? Nope.
Are they planting billions of trees, fertilizing the oceans with iron, to suck that CO2 back out, and maintain the atmosphere at a constant composition? Nope.
They’re just taking the money from people they don’t like, and giving it to people they do like. In the expectation of getting votes. They’re buying votes at the expense of their enemies, and nothing more.
What they’re doing in return for the money is refraining from sending guys with guns around to attack the companies. They’re engaged in Mafia thinking: “I could burn down your house, but I don’t; What are you going to pay me, you freeloader, you?”
You’re treating your carbon tax, just a gleam in some economist’s mind until very recently, and not even that much not so long ago, as if it were the natural order of things, and asking how dare the company expect to be free of what had never before been done.
Seems to me there could have been a lot more done along various lines if one entire party denies the reality of climate change and is ideologically opposed to doing anything about it, the same way the're ideologically opposed to doing anything in response to pandemics.
There will be -- we just have to purge the RINOs first....
I'm sure that will be great fun.
So, you're not even TRYING in the present proposal to do anything but buy votes with the money, but that's alright, because as soon as you have utterly unchallenged power, you'll do the right thing, and buying votes is a step to that. So buying votes itself is the right thing.
What a lame excuse.
You keep telling you how mad you are at the Republican Party for not enacting the policies you want, but when Democrats enact policies popular with their voters it's 'buying votes.'
"Seems to me there could have been a lot more done along various lines if one entire party ..."
Guess who torpedoed one of the WA carbon tax initiatives ... progressives.
Some thought they were good, others thought they were flawed.
While I agree with you -- I don't on this " fertilizing the oceans with iron"
It actually would be nitrogen and phosphate fertilizer and the problem is that it would work too well, create an algae bloom. All living things eventually die and the problem with algae blooms is when they die -- and suck all the oxygen out of the water as they decompose. This then leads to dead fish (who suffocate).
Now if an algae bloom in truly deep water (+1000 fathoms) were to sink to the bottom, the real question would be if it would decompose and I honestly don't know -- it might not -- or it might form petroleum.
"It actually would be nitrogen and phosphate fertilizer and the problem is that it would work too well, create an algae bloom."
No, actually in most of the largely abiotic areas of ocean, where there's practically no photosynthesis going on, the limiting element IS iron. Supply enough of that, and other elements come up short, sure, but it is the first one you have to supplement.
It's actually been tried at least once, worked great.
Don't forget the lesson of the Kabab Deer....
https://www.liquisearch.com/kaibab_plateau/kaibab_deer
The government is doing whatever it was doing.
The point of the tax is to rationalize market signals.
Besides, some versions actually return the money to the citizenry.
I've been emitting Carbon Tax-Free for 60 years. Senescent Joe's been doing it longer than that.
Longto,
You tax the carbon producers, they pass along their increased costs.
In principle you can lower all rates by a small amount to make the system revenue neutral to the Treasury. The bottom of the tax structure already does not pay tax, but they do see increased costs. So they get a tax credit. No business gets poorer and those at the bottom get a little help.
Now you will say, that greed confounds this optimistic vision. Could be.
Basically, policies like this do not reduce carbon, they outsource it. Actually making things requires expending energy. Things still need to get made. The carbon tax forces them to be made somewhere else.
I think in the last couple of years we have some experience with the downsides of taking internal supply chains and stretching them across the globe. They're not good consequences.
I don't think the article got into manufacturing, but rather emission emitting industries. I would think a large part of that is the energy sector and another transportation. It would be good to have a better breakdown of the emitting industries. Also as mentioned by other commentors would be wage effects. Were jobs lost made up by lower paying jobs or similar wage pay?
They disincentivize carbon producing choices in about as direct a way as you can.
Your argument appears to be that reducing carbon emission growth is impossible. Which is very silly.
I’m not a big cap and trade fan, but carbon taxes are an elegant way to acknowledge and deal with climate externalities.
The right wing move from these externalities don’t exist to they do exist but we should not try and deal with them was predictable 20 years ago.
They disincentivize carbon producing within the taxing jurisdiction choices, which is not remotely the same thing as carbon producing choices.
Because heavy carbon producing industries are not very mobile, I don’t think your objection works.
Plus your offshoring thesis assumes a costless transition even as you decry the costs.
And you ignore the market incentives for innovation this creates. Why spend the money offshoring if you can reduce some research to practice instead? Not 100%, but not ignorable either.
Also, nuclear gets more competitive. Which you and I are into.
They're not quickly mobile, which, again, is not the same thing as not BEING mobile.
"Plus your offshoring thesis assumes a costless transition even as you decry the costs."
I'm assuming nothing of the sort. In fact, I was explicitly stating the opposite, that moving production abroad has proven to have very negative consequences over the last few years.
moving production abroad has proven to have very negative consequences over the last few years.
Which of course is something these companies will take into account when deciding how to react.
You know, I'm no engineer, but I'm willing to bet this is not, in many cases, an all-or-nothing deal. I suspect that there are ways for heavy emitters to reduce their emissions without abandoning fossil fuels. Those ways will cost something, of course, so the carbon tax will provide an incentive to pay that cost.
I mean, you're the one talking about "on the margin." Companies will not have to choose between bankruptcy and moving to China. There are choices in between.
They can outsources energy intensive components and raw materials to countries that don't tax the energy content of those supplies.
A carbon tax must also include a tax on energy content of disposal and decommissioning. Otherwise one has a dishonest system
Which is what exists now.
Don Nino -- I know of a tannery in Maine that responded to Maine's water quality laws (circa 1970s) by fleshing all of its hides elsewhere and bringing the partially-processed hides to finish there.
And then it was cheaper to do everything somewhere else and the whole plant closed.
https://www.centralmaine.com/2020/05/04/hartland-tannery-to-close-by-summers-end-leaving-115-out-of-work/
Don,
True. Or on energy content of imports.
Just right.
Except the cost of outsourcing doesn't fall nearly as hard on the company as it does the employees and country that lost them.
What is moving abroad? Certainly not the bulk of our extraction and production industry. And England’s woes are from well before this tax.
Are you taking about national security issues?
The UK is irrelevant here. It is a half-lame economy for two decades.
But take a look at China and South Korea and analyze their stimulus of heavy industry.
They have a huge gap in capacity we do not.
If you make it more cost efficient to ship crude oil to another country, to do the energy-intensive refining there, and then ship it back...
Then that's what will be done.
…what do you think this carbon tax was on?
The carbon tax, as commonly understood, is on carbon emissions.
Now, you apparently don't realize this. But refining oil is quite energy intensive. As in, it releases a lot of carbon emissions.
By placing a carbon tax in place that taxes carbon emissions, it makes it more cost efficient to drill for crude oil, pump it out to a different jurisdiction, do the refining there, then move it back to the original jurisdiction. It's a "cost savings" because the carbon tax on refining the oil isn't assessed, if it isn't done in the original jurisdiction.
That's what IS done -- we haven't built a refinery in this country in something like 40 years...
"What is moving abroad? Certainly not the bulk of our extraction and production industry."
Seriously, you're going with that? There are whole industries that have died in the US on account of regulatory burden. Minerals that are absolutely present in the US, like rare earths, but hardly mined here anymore.
Ought to call you Cast Iron Gallcastr0. You're rarely sarcastic these days.
"Heavy Carbon Producing Industries"
Hmm, you must have taken a different Chemistry than me, don't remember any "Heavy Carbon" Allotropes, but Senescent Joe's 747(s) would certainly qualify (holds 300,000+ lbs of dead dinosaurs) and it's certainly "Mobile"
Frank
"Because heavy carbon producing industries are not very mobile, I don’t think your objection works. "
An oil-burning steam plant located in Turner's Falls, Massachusetts was physically relocated to Africa. The plant had powered a paper mill.
This stuff happens -- we have heavy equipment today and you would be amazed at how easy it is to move stuff. Even fly it...
Or there is this invention called "Ships"....
"Because heavy carbon producing industries... "
In Fantasyland USA, all energy consumed by industry is electrical. Therefore the number of " heavy carbon producing" industries is quite small, except for oil, gas, and coal producers.
Nobody seems to recognize that US carbon emissions have been falling for the last 15 years, give or take. Most of the driver of that has been natural gas displacing coal. I contributed to that reduction more than you and everyone you know.
You’re welcome.
Natural gas is better than coal. But not like carbon neutral.
Carbon neutral ain't ever going to happen short of going 100% nuke, but keep tilting at that windmill Don Quixote.......
Which means we should call natural gas perfect and settle there.
Aspiration is not implementation,
Wonder why I could possibly think you are hostile to energy regulation…
Show me where I said we should “ call natural gas perfect”. C’mon, do it. You can’t because I DON’T THINK THAT. Can you get that into your politically addled brain?
I’m probably just going to stop talking to you because you can’t seem to discuss what I actually say. Easier for you to debate a phantom that only exists in your head. Every response has to start with a plea to respond to what I actually said and quit imagining my thoughts. Very tiresome.
The way to get carbon down is a balanced mix of several sources, but kneeling at the altar of the Climate Change Church doesn’t allow balance and functionality.
You posted that no one knows how good natural gas has been for carbon emissions. I said it’s not perfect, and you jumped all over me.
This is what you actually did. As I noted, you get really agro when this subject pops up.
it all ends up as CO2 and H2O
That's not at all what I said but I'm done trying to get things past your bias. For just one part of it you didn't say "natural gas is not perfect" you attributed the expression "we should call natural gas perfect and settle there" to me when I absolutely did not say that.
And if "perfect" means "only acceptable outcome" being zero carbon, you're delusional. That will never happen, unless we are willing to ramp up to 70%+ of our energy grid being generated with nuclear plants, which again is apostasy to the climate panickers.
Quit responding to me, but you being you I understand you'll have to get the last word here so go ahead. I don't care.
for a "Lumberjack" you sound like a big P-word
The strawman is Sarcastro's favorite tactic.
He doesn't discuss stuff with me. He's arguing with his mental image of me, which rarely matches reality.
The good news is that he doesn't need my involvement to continue to do that.
bevis — What is your estimate for how much energy demand would have to shrink before it would be possible satisfy it entirely with renewables? Or do you deny that could happen no matter how small the demand?
Keep in mind that, by any sane definition, nuclear power IS a "renewable" energy source. It's good for about 5 billion years, by which time the Sun will have moved off the main sequence and turned the planet into a cinder.
Geothermal, often touted as "renewable" is actually good for LESS time than that!
So, actually, we don't have to reduce energy consumption AT ALL to get by on renewable energy. We just have to stop listening to the watermelons who oppose nuclear power.
That's not so great math in that chart.
That chart assumes that all uranium that exists in the crust at any concentration can be mined, concentrated, and refined.
That's not realistic. Here's a better look at the actual reasonable concentrations of uranium ore.
https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/nuclear-fuel-cycle/uranium-resources/supply-of-uranium.aspx
"That chart assumes that all uranium that exists in the crust at any concentration can be mined, concentrated, and refined."
Over the course of billions of years, pretty much all the uranium in the crust WILL end up in the oceans, and the crust will be turned over multiple times by plate tectonics. Though my link only assumes 50%, not 100% of it, ends up in the ocean.
You do realize that erosion adds uranium and thorium to the ocean faster than we'd use it, right? And your own link mentions it as a technically proven source, before proceeding to ignore it.
You missed the point.
Your link assumed that all of the uranium in the crust, at 2.8 ppm, could be effectively mined, concentrated, and refined. Ignore the ocean. Just concentrate on the crust.
That's not realistic.
What's not realistic is deciding next week's power source based on whether it will last 5 billion years, or "only" 1 billion. Like we know enough about what we'll be capable of a hundred years from no, let alone a billion, to make a decision like that. If a power source will be plentiful enough for a couple thousand years, that's effectively infinite for planning purposes, because other people will be making the decisions by then.
For all we know, a couple centuries from now we'll be using catalytic fusion, or total mass conversion.
We can be reasonably confident we won't be relying on fossil fuels a hundred years from now, because unless we muck things up terribly, we'll be wealthy enough to CARE that coal is filthy, and oil has better uses, so we wouldn't be using them even if they weren't going to run out.
The real question is, do we replace fossil fuels with something that's already capable of maintaining a modern industrial society for an effectively indefinite period, or do we try to replace them with sources that, frankly, SUCK.
Wind objectively sucks, outside niche applications. Solar objectively sucks, outside niche applications. You could, theoretically, with enough over-building and storage, get by on them, but the expense necessary would impoverish us all relative to using a source that just works reliably and doesn't need storage or overbuilding.
Now, if you want a crash project to get solar power satellites working, and in the mean time would lay off on ruining the economy by forcing a hyper-fast transition to sources that aren't ready yet, great. I think SPS have the potential to do anything nuclear could, for Earth, anyway.
But lay off trying to force us all to rely on unicorn farts next week!
Brett,
It's not 5 Billion years. It's not 1 Billion years. It's 200 years at current rates of consumption. Using current economically reasonable ores and rates of extraction. Roughly 10% of global electricity is produced with nuclear power. So, if we were "all" nuclear...it would last 20 years.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-long-will-global-uranium-deposits-last/
There's a whole lot of caveats about this. You could develop more lower grade ores (which would be more expensive), use alternate methods of fission, and so on and so on. But having a reasonable understanding of uranium mining, and the relative limits on current supply with current techniques is important.
Two words: Breeder Reactor.
They actually create more fuel than they use -- something about neutrons bombarding something else or something. And they can re-process our existing nuke waste, which we've only gotten something like 1% of the energy out of.
And this is 70 year old technology -- they had them in the '50s.
The only problem is that they also make weapons grade fuel.
"It’s 200 years at current rates of consumption."
Using literally insane assumptions, yeah. With enough gibbering, you can get it down to 200 years.
It's like you didn't even read the article at your own link. The 200 year estimate is based on doing literally EVERYTHING wrong. EVERYTHING! Most of the article consists of listing the reasons that estimate is stupid!
"Further exploration and improvements in extraction technology are likely to at least double this estimate over time."
Speaking of more efficient reactors and reprocessing, "Taking both steps would cut the uranium requirements of an LWR in half."
"First, the extraction of uranium from seawater would make available 4.5 billion metric tons of uranium—a 60,000-year supply at present rates."
"Second, fuel-recycling fast-breeder reactors, which generate more fuel than they consume, would use less than 1 percent of the uranium needed for current LWRs."
Doing all that gets you up to at least 24 million years, and the article completely ignores use of unconventional ores, (Lots of things we mine produce uranium and thorium as a 'waste product'.) thorium, and that erosion replaces the fuel extracted from the sea, which blows the fuel limit out of the water, because that happens faster than you need to extract the fuel.
You literally cited an article proving the 200 year limit was insane under any rational assumptions, to justify using it!
You're missing the point Brett. Really, you're missing the point I'm making here.
I'm not arguing against nuclear power. I think it's fine, and should be explored and expanded. However, I think the arguments for it should be grounded in firm science and realistic assumptions about current uranium levels that can be obtained. Having firm and realistic assumptions about uranium supplies strengthens your argument.
Arguing that we have a 5 billion year supply if we harvest every last atom of uranium from the entire crust of the earth is unrealistic, and basically shoots yourself in the foot. It makes your argument sound crazy, because it is, and by doing so makes people disregard the entire argument. You've got to start from reasonable expectations and expand the the supply from there. Don't blithely say "we don't have to worry about the supply of uranium"...because we do. And we may need to develop new technologies to access it properly.
So...
1) Have a firm understanding of the economics of current uranium mining.
2) THEN expand upon the supply in reasonable methods
Really, Armchair, go back and read your own linked SiAm article. You cited it for 200 years, and it actually is devoted to debunking that number! You seem amazingly unconcerned about that self-own.
Your own source says extraction from the sea is good for 60K years, without taking into account thorium, without any move to more efficient reactors, without reprocessing, without breeder reactors, without extracting uranium or thorium from fly ash, leaving all land sources alone. Let’s be insanely conservative, and say that nuclear power using sea water extraction is only good for 5 million years if we don’t deliberately hobble ourselves in all those ways.
Your source also neglects that erosion of the land is adding uranium and thorium to the sea faster than we would be consuming it! Literally, the sea can’t run out of nuclear fuel until plate tectonics stops, which is not expected to happen before the Sun moves off the main sequence and fries the Earth.
You argue that it’s crazy to expect to get at all the uranium in the crust. But in a billion years, it’s not remotely crazy, because the crust actually turns over in less time than that. You wouldn’t be digging up the crust under your feet, you’d just be filtering sea water, while the existing natural processes replaced what you removed!
But forget that! Say it’s really only 60K years. Say it’s only a thousand years. That’s effectively eternal in terms of current decision making, because we totally lack the information to make policy for a thousand years hence. In a thousand years who the hell knows what we’ll be able to do, what we’ll want to do?
It’s utter hubris to insist we can’t use a power supply because it would run out in “only” a thousand years.
You can imagine all sorts of reasons for not using nuclear to replace fossil fuels. It's too dangerous, too expensive, anything but "it would run out". That is literally the stupidest reason for rejecting nuclear on offer.
Now, you want to talk economics? Your alternative to nuclear power is some combination of wind and solar, right?
Sources so intermittent and undependable that the only way you can use them for baseline power is by massively over-building capacity, and having an enormous amount of storage to deal with when they're not available. For when the wind decides not to blow for a week or two or three, for months when it's so overcast that the panels are only putting out 10% of their rated power.
I assure you that the moment you take solar and add needing 10 times rated capacity and half a day of storage, nuclear becomes perfectly economical by comparison. It's not even close!
Brett — Too bad you can't have nuclear. But the nuclear power industry lied itself out of existence, and apparently that can't be fixed.
I have suggested a way that nuclear proponents could regain public support. Just demonstrate they actually can dispose safely and permanently of all the stockpiled nuclear waste they previously promised would be taken care of. Do that and I will get on board myself. Let's see them do it.
After that the public can be confident they are talking to honest brokers, instead of a pack of lying opportunists.
"... all the stockpiled nuclear waste they previously promised would be taken care of. "
That promise was made by the Federal government which in typical fashion has spent billions of dollars and has yet to come up with a site and a plan.
Nico — The basis is that the problem became noisome decades ago, and not a finger has since been lifted to solve it. Except maybe at the retired Plymouth Nuclear Reactor, not too far from me. There, area residents are protesting a plan to just dump about a million gallons of radioactive waste water into Cape Cod Bay.
SL, If your knowledge of the development of fission energy is based on the Plymouth Reactor, you are hopelessly out of date both technologically, environmentally, and economically.
As for the dumping of water, tritium concentrations are far lower the levels deemed safe, even at the moment of dumping. The dilution will be extremely rapid in Cape Cod Bay. In this regard, follow the science that judges that the rich Cap codders are alarmist NIMBYites.
Stephen, not a finger has been permitted to be raised to solve it, not at all the same thing. Anti-nuclear activists long ago settled on a strategy of choking the industry on 'wastes', and deployed all their political influence to prohibit doing anything to solve the problems. With the intention that eventually the reactors would have to shut down for lack of anywhere to put the stuff.
Waste has well known solutions, starting with reprocessing, it's just effectively illegal to use them. The government even spent decades collecting money for a waste storage facility, and then canceled it!
SL,
"and apparently that can’t be fixed. "
You have no basis on which to make that prediction.
You are correct that the nuclear industry is challenged to be economically competitive. An accurate energy tax at the source would change that in the US. Small modular reactors (SMRs) may change that if the SMR can be made as factory produced whole units. Some countries are now exploring exactly that.
Obviously first of a kind units will be more expensive than other generators, but there are good reasons to estimate what the learning curve will be.
As for your challenge, I expect that you are so biased with respect to you criteria that you will never be satisfied. I could make similar comments about the toxins in the electronics that you use and blightly thrown away to poison children with impoverished countries.
” Just demonstrate they actually can dispose safely and permanently of all the stockpiled nuclear waste”
Build Breeder Reactors and you won’t have to as the waste will be converted into fuel.
Something about how spare neutrons will enrich the waste or something -- I just know that the technology exists.
Went to a "Black Hills Astonomical Society" meeting in 1972 (yes, Rapid City SD had an "Astonomical Society" and an actual observatory (with a pretty good sized Reflector Telescope 12-16" (I was 10)
They'd have "Starwatch Parties" (saw the "Comet of the Century" (more like of 1973) Kohoutek, but cooler things through the Scope such as Ceres, Neptune, Your-Anus (all looked like stars)
And lectures at the SD School of Mines,
One kind of "Fill in" lecture was some joker, looked like Doc Brown from "Back to the Future", and his calculations had the Sun's "Best by" date as 1% of the accepted figure,
Really had me scared until one of the Adults, with his HP-35 pointed out we still had a 100 million years, depending on the breaks.
Frank "Look, the Big Dip! Hello President Biden"
I don’t have one,Stephen. Therefore a more fundamental problem to get past first - renewables by their nature are not capable of carrying 100% of a grid. So far they haven’t demonstrated that they can even carry 40%.
So your question is unanswerable. There are going to have to be more reliable sources to insure that we’re not in constant brownout mode.
And so Sarcastro can’t claim I said something that I didn’t, I am absolutely not saying that renewables have no place. But there’s a ceiling on how much of the load they can bare. That ceiling is lower than you’d like it to be.
Bevis — Please explain your conclusion to me. On the basis of what you have said so far, I am tempted to conclude that the way to get reliable service from renewables is first and foremost to over-specify the supply. Supplement that further with storage systems yet to be designed, or in the process of design, and go all out on conservation. Please explain why that cannot be a plan for tolerable reliability.
SL,
Over building has not worked in Germany. It has not worked in the UK. What the overbuilding has done is to drive the spot price of base-load generators negative on many occasions each year. Building even more wind plants will make the negative spot prices even more frequent.
Until you actually study wind patterns in countries north of the Mediterranean, you are making a demonstrably false claim out of ignorance.
Not to mention that even as vast as we are we don’t have enough space to overbuild. Renewables are extremely inefficient as to KWh generated per acre used.
Nico's commment to SL "Until you actually study wind patterns in countries north of the Mediterranean, you are making a demonstrably false claim out of ignorance."
As a follow up Nico's comment See the attached link (4th chart) US electric production by source.
This is an excellent source showing the electric generation by source and real world practical limitations of wind and solar as the primary source.
the germany has similar real time link which points out the deficiency in wind production. During the summer of 2022, wind was producing 10-15% of capacity for days and weeks at a time.
To paraphrase Nicos comment - those proposing 100% renewables are living in a delusional alternate universe.
I should have made on additional observation that thanks to energy policies in the EU, a perverse incentive has been created in which the high the fraction of renewables, the lower the return on investment for energy storage.
"yet to be designed"
Cold fusion is right around the corner!
Generally speaking, I don't like to make high stakes bets on things that might or might not happen.
A couple of suggestions: look into the process and energy requirements for cement and ammonia production, and how to do those with electricity instead of fossil fuels/feedstock.
You need the cement for the foundations of your wind turbines, and you need the ammonia to eat.
See, for example, 'How the World Really Works' by Vaclav Smil. Before you dismiss it as right wing agit-prop, here's a review from the amazon page:
“A new masterpiece from one of my favorite authors… [How The World Really Works] is a compelling and highly readable book that leaves readers with the fundamental grounding needed to help solve the world’s toughest challenges.”—Bill Gates
SL,
The energy demand is not going to shrink. To the contrary it is going to expand. And in particular the demand for electrical power is going to expand by a large amount, especially in the US and EU.
I suspect that you imagine a day when there are no trucks on the interstate system and where big and little trains powered by electric diesel engines deliver all good to your favored merchants. I guess that you image whole eminent domain seizures of property in country, town, and city to build all the railways tracks. Dream on.
Your hypothetical is silly and does not warrant an answer.
Nico — Electric Diesel engines are the norm, right now. You use a Diesel engine to drive a generator, to make electricity to drive electric motors, to make the train go. That technology is many decades old. It is also irrelevant to the discussion we are attempting.
I don't know how things are where you live, but in the Northeast many of those railroad rights of way, and even the ties and tracks in some instances, are still there. I remember seeing many disused railroad rights of way in the Rocky Mountain region too. It will not be a major challenge to put those back to work.
I do imagine a day when some transportation demands will be answered by radical changes. For instance, business air travel strikes me as mostly obsolete already. Why not conference by computer instead?
I doubt anyone 50 years from now will be able to understand why we have not already replaced short-haul air passenger travel with high speed rail. Out to 800 miles or so, why should anyone ever get on an airplane? No matter what the distance, practically every airplane journey seems to take a minimum of 3–4 hours. Rail can replace that performance with far less energy expenditure.
I do like your suggestion for bringing goods by rail into cities. We know it works. It is what happened routinely more than 100 years ago. What drove the change to trucks was better efficiency to handle goods transfers in inter-modal supply chains. That technological problem is almost completely solved already. It just needs its pieces put together. Imagine some combination of small containerized deliveries, automated rail cars, and computer management to consolidate delivery inventories—basically Maersk meets Amazon, on rails. Maybe underground rails.
What you left out of your critique is that I also expect in my silliness to see dispersed energy storage become a thing. I expect relatively-low-cost somewhat massive batteries to become as regular a feature of residential basements as fuel oil tanks now are in the Northeast. The goal will not be to store energy with the density a fuel oil tank enables (like the 3-month heating supply my present home enjoys). It will instead be to provide at reasonable cost a few days of backup, to better enable heavy reliance on renewables, and minimize need for alternative conventional generating capacity on the grid.
Of course, there are massive energy savings to be had just by emphasis on conservation improvements for older buildings. More massive savings could come from more-thoughtful new construction of houses, with an eye to optimized passive solar designs, smaller floor plans, and economical materials. I had a friend who enjoyed a house like that decades ago in the Rockies, where night-time temperature below –20F were commonplace. It remained amazingly comfortable no matter what the weather, and was remarkably inexpensive to heat.
With the exception of energy-intensive industrial processes, our entire built environment, and many of our customary practices, were developed before energy consumption was a factor anyone paid much attention to. The gains to be made by correcting that still lie in the future. I suspect we will be astonished once we really tackle the job, to discover how much greater energy efficiency can be.
SL,
Why do you answer with things everyone know.
And yes there are many unused unsafe rail tracks through the Northeast.
As for energy efficient buildings, Berkeley pioneered those techniques 30 years ago, they are usually the norm in new buildings.
You just are whistling in the dark.
" I also expect in my silliness to see dispersed energy storage become a thing."
That is because you know nothing of the technologies involved or the size of storage needed. The best large scale energy storage is pumped water. That is what switzerland does with the energy it gets for free (plus a cash bonus) from Germany. When Germany needs energy because the winds have died down, they buy stored energy for Switzerland. Clever folks those Swiss.
If you look at energy storage technology that might fulfill your dream, you'll find that your dream storage material is gasoline.
“I doubt anyone 50 years from now will be able to understand why we have not already replaced short-haul air passenger travel with high speed rail.”
Because Amtrak is incompetent, and because most of the tracks near cities are already congested with the cities’ commuter rail. This is a BIG problem on the Northeast Corridor (Boston to DC). Elsewhere, the tracks are owned by freight railroads who give their own trains priority.
"I do like your suggestion for bringing goods by rail into cities"
We already do -- the "double stack" technology has made rail viable as long as the bridges & tunnels are high enough for these cars to get under. For example, the floor of the MA Hoosac Tunnel is being lowered to facilitate this.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOGV3KT8qDI
The problem is that some of these trains are TWO miles long -- and hence you really don't want to bring them into cities. Far easier to use trucks for the last 20-40 miles and using Boston as an example, freight trains now stop about 40 miles outside the city.
Nico — You may be right that energy demand will expand. Certainly, electrical demand will expand, dramatically. I doubt coal energy demand will expand. Other fuels, who knows? Policy will drive these outcomes. What will happen to nuclear energy for electric generation remains a wild card.
SL,
Before you talk about trends you ought to read the annual reports of the International Energy Agency. That is the most authoritative source concerning demand supply, by form, by region, etc.
Lantrop -
go the the 4th chart, then drill down to the various grids in the US.
Once you have a grasp of energy production by source, you will quickly be able to understand that it will take a minimum of 7 days of backup storage to get through the typical summer to avoid blackouts. It will take a minimum of 3 weeks of backup storage to get through the winter in the northern hemisphere.
the renewable experts such as marc jacobson of 100% claim to fame claims it can be done with only 4-8 hours of back up storage. In sum, renewable fantasy meets reality.
https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/US48/US48
Joe_dallas — What percentage of the median deficiency would 8 hours of backup storage address? What percentage would 16 hours address? What could be done by means of conservation to improve those numbers?
Nothing, Stephen. The fundamental problem is that both solar and wind, but especially wind, are random in nature. And the statistics are such that occasionally you'll be under-producing for weeks at a time.
The Sun does at least come up every day, so that with enough over-building you could get by with 12 hours or so of storage. "Enough" in this case is about ten-fold, because a solar panel might be good for only 10% of it's nameplate capacity on an overcast day.
What it comes down to is that solar and wind become insanely expensive if you're actually relying on them.
See the linked story and other recent posts at the Manhattan Contrarian for an honest look at why "renewables" fail.
https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2022-12-1-the-manhattan-contrarian-energy-storage-paper-has-arrived
Stephen Lathrop 18 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
Joe_dallas — What percentage of the median deficiency would 8 hours of backup storage address? What percentage would 16 hours address? What could be done by means of conservation to improve those numbers?"
lathrop -
A) A gave you the link so that you could grasp the magnitude of the gap in both the supply and the demand.
B) reasonable estimates is that a 4-7 day back up will be required at least once a month for the typical summer
C) reasonable estimates is that a 15-30 backup will required at least once a month during the winter months.
D) note also the Texas freeze fiasco that occurred Feb 2021. Note that there was virtually no wind across the north american continent for 7 days (not the lost natural gas generation that lost 40% for 48 hours which was limited to Ercot)
E) note also that during the Texas freeze, the electric demand due to the extreme cold would be the equivalent of 20-30 days of normal electric demand, probably more after accounting for converting home gas heating to electric heating.
The renewable advocates simply are not dealing with reality
RIght now most of renewables are not actually carbon neutral nor are they sustainable except in fantasy land. In 50 years, perhaps.
Can’t disagree. That’s where the carbon tax comes in - one of the things it does is incentivizes that innovation path.
It also incentivizes the "offshore to another country" plan.
The only thing it really incentivizes is voting for the people handing out the money.
Refuge in conspiracies once again.
No, he genuinely thinks that policies that help people are a form of bribery and are to be avoided at all costs.
You think getting a bribe doesn't help the recipient, just like any other money or material benefit would?
I think chraacterising things that benefit the electorate as 'bribes' is weird.
Not really Brett. The system can be legislated to be basically hands-off by a modification of the tax code. The entire administration is through the IRS in the US just like every other deposit to the general fund.
Of course they're not. We should have started developing them properly OVER fifty years ago. Short-sightedness and greed is going to kill a lot of people.
Even though US emissions have been dropping, world emissions have gone up.
It matters nary a taste what the US does as long as China and India continue to expand coal. If you think most of the third world will be content with high-cost intermittent power generation, think again.
" If you think most of the third world will be content..."
that is the usual assumption of the neocolonialists.
Go to China or India and convince them...
Convince them of what? They're currently among the countries being hardest hit by climate change with appalling, never-ending heat waves. But India is currently ruled by right-wing quasi-fascists and China by communists who embraced capitalism, prime examples of the sorts who put holding on to power before everything else. They'll either work it out for themselves, or they're fucked, but the fact of the matter is, most of the excess C02 in the atmosphere was put there since the industrial revolution began, and not by China or India.
Since the actual goal is to make Americans' lives worse, it doesn’t matter that our carbon emissions are going down. They’ll always be too high if Americans' lives can be made worse by lowering them.
Why in the world,would that be the goal?
Quit psyching yourself up towards liberals being demons worthy of death.
"Why in the world,would that be the goal? "
If it is not the goal it is certainly the effect of the Biden administration's misguided policies.
Presumably, they disagree with you.
"Why" doesn’t matter. It’s the explanation that best explains the behavior.
Fill in your own reasons why. Here are some possible ones:
- to atone for sins against the Earth
- Americans deserve to get the shaft because of some grievance (race, Covid, Trump, Cold War, gender, alphabet people, guns, daddy issues, religion, natives, borders, big tobacco, plastic straws, endangered animals, etc., etc. — the list of grievances is almost endless).
Why wouldn’t the clearest, simplest explanation that fits the most behavior patterns be the best one?
It’s not the goal. The simple explanation is that they just disagree with your take on the upshot of their policy goals.
… and always seem to chose whichever choice will make Americans' lives worse. Purely by random chance, like flipping a coin and getting heads 49 out of 50 times.
Another possibility is that making Americans' lives worse is not considered bad at all. When weighing alternatives, making Americans' lives worse weighs zero. So any chance at any benefit is determinative because the the other side of the scale has zero weight on it.
Your take on what makes lives worse is not the one true correctness.
Take a modicum of humility and quit spinning out insane stories about people who disagree with you.
It's not even A true correctness.
You can spin it for people and tell them paying more for less isn’t worse.
"It’s not the goal."
Enlighten us. What is the goal and what has been the "upshot" of their policy goals?
What could the goal of carbon reduction possibly be?
What a stumper.
If carbon reduction was the actual goal then we could use nuclear and hydroelectric power.
But environmentalists fight against nuclear and want to tear down dams.
Nuclear power and dams give us power to lead better lives. Shutting them down means less power, worse lives. Seems consistent.
Here's a stumber:
Apply Paschal's Wager to the question of "renewable energy" versus fossil fuel. Which would you be willing to bet your life on?
Seriously, people keep saying this, it's not environmentalists stopping nuclear power, they're full-on trying to get wind and solar developed and look where that's at, they're not that powerful, you're blaming the wrong crowd.
"Which would you be willing to bet your life on?"
When its other people’s lives the answer will be different.
Meanwhile elites have already secured whatever they might need.
That's capitalism for you.
More Abortions, obviously, not that there's anything wrong with that, dead babies don't produce much C02 (well, for a short time, but mostly gases of Putrefaction, Methane, Hydrogen Sulfide, and yes CO2, but it was the others that got Dahmer caught (Adults are just big Fetuses)
Frank
"I’m not a big cap and trade fan, "
Neither am I. Invariably at international fora, they tend to be the basis of special pleading for industrialized nations to subsidize the so-called developing countries.
There is a place for government set up markets. But cap and trade is trying to quantify too many things and as you said has too many places for special pleading.
Nico — Seems like there is a pretty good argument against that. Everyone agrees developed nations use a disproportionate share of carbon. Compared to giving money to countries which emit less, why not use that same money here to reduce more carbon than they can, and thus better ameliorate their own climate problems along with our own?
Stephan,
Because charity begins at home. Yup, that is selfish. But do you really think that sending billions to Bangladesh every year will make that country better. Give me hard evidence of that.
Nothing that we do will stop Nigeria from increasing their use of coal through the next 40 years. It is their natural resource and they have concrete plans to use it.
In the end, we had better fix our own house first and try to find political policy ways to convince China and India to do likewise. All the rest are rounding errors.
Nico, I am not proposing to send a nickel abroad to subsidize energy development. Underdeveloped nations have just drawn a lucky hand. They do not have, like we do, billions and billions sunk in obsolescent carbon-intensive energy technology, which we will have to write off, and they will not.
All under-developed countries have to do is make the right choices going forward. Make renewables comparable in cost to Nigeria's coal, and as Nigeria develops more energy technology they can minimize carbon emissions at the same time. All of that can be accomplished by international capitalism working its usual magic.
In the meantime, that money we do not send abroad could be used here more reliably, and to far greater global effect. To cut carbon emissions which occur here results in lower atmospheric carbon everywhere. We have more to cut.
Put the resources where the need is greatest. Explain that patiently to third world nations, and introduce them to some international bankers. Then use that money we do not send abroad to develop here key technologies which can later be used abroad, such as hydrogen-based energy storage, or distributed battery storage systems, or whatever else looks worth trying and broadly useful.
SL,
What do you actually know about Nigeria for example. My information comes from Nigerian energy professionals.
And they don't need white man's welfare or the new colonialism
The Saudi's have an "Elegant" way of dealing with crime. Seriously, those Swordsmen are better than that guy Indiana Jones shot in "Raiders" and if he's really good the freed head will tumble like a Phil Niekro knuckleball, and if the condemned was a hypertensive the Carotids/Vertebral arteries will spurt (temporarily) like a friggin fountain.
Funny thing, no decapitated criminal has "recidivated"
Frank "Tax this"
"Basically, policies like this do not reduce carbon, they outsource it."
That is your assumption.
Just don't expect heavy industry to pop up in bangadesh or afghanistan
The bottom line is that our societal standard of living is based on and depends on low-cost energy. If you hate the poor, you should love taxes that increase the cost of energy. Moving goods to market with a donkey cart may be supremely low carbon, but the American middle class cannot exist depending on that transportation.
This ‘it would be irresponsible to try and make things better’ is a pretty bad way to be.
If you really want to reduce "Carbon" emissions, first thing we do is get rid of all the Electric Vehicles (and then the Lawyers)
Interestingly electric vehicles are more carbon intensive to produce. They are net carbon beneficial ONLY if racking up many a mile. Less so if your local electricity is produced from coal.
Hey, no fair clouding the discussion with facts.
Even if that's true, all the more reason to focus on public transport.
Which of course are powered by fossil fuels.
Currently powered by fossil fuels, but yay economies of scale.
Took MARTA (Mostly Africans Riding Through Atlanta) to a Braves game in 1982 (not my Idea) that was enough. Which "Rapid" Transit System do you use? Briefly considered the DC Metro back in the 90's, didn't leave early enough, still had to drive to get to the station, then a 1/2 mile walk to work (and in DC you couldn't carry legally, heck, you couldn't own a gun in your home legally back then)
Shoot down the I-270, at Clinton-Error Gas Prices, could get from Gaithersburg to Walter Reed in 20 minutes (5am traffic).
And amazing how few muggings happen in personal vehicles.
Frank "Self Driving"
Derp.
Dipwad fucktard.
Don’t be so mean to Frank, he tries so hard.
No deflection allowed. You know what you are.
And you are what you know.
when I don't have a response I just STFU, "DERP"?? gotta be a Hipster Acronym, I'll look it up when I get done watching "Friends" and listening to my Radiohead CD's
Derp.
"
And amazing how few muggings happen in personal vehicles."
Something the left will never understand in either context...
Just avoid electric buses.
https://www.dailybulletin.com/2021/07/22/with-50-of-its-buses-inoperable-foothill-transit-searches-for-a-way-to-fix-its-fleet/
The fun of early adoption.
It would be an extra tax. No matter how many assurances anyone gives, there’s no way it doesn’t turn into an extra tax on top of every other tax.
Repeal the income tax and amend the constitution to make income taxes illegal. Then and only then will Americans consider believing in a new revenue neutral replacement tax.
Americans are already considering a revenue neutral tax.
Elite, cosmopolitan trans-nationals who happen to originate from America.
Like me and Prof. Adler?
Do Americans in 2022 matter less or more than the people of 2040 or 2050?
People of 2040 or 2050??, AlGore said the Earth would fall over by then, I read it on the Internets he invented
No - keep explaining to me who counts as American to you. Homless and people who like carbon taxes are out of the pool. Who else?
Stop putting Americans last if you don’t like complaints about putting Americans last.
You just have a smaller set of Americans who you care about than me.
That’s on you.
Many of them will be the same people.
Elite, cosmopolitan trans-nationals who happen to originate from America.
Who could that be, Ben?
Do they hurt your feelings by not being sufficiently respectful of non-cosmopolitans like you?
One of my biggest pet peeves is how many made up words/phrases I see; not just here but everywhere.
"revenue neutral tax" is a total bullshit phrase that is no more real than the rainbow colored lizard people are. It is just another example of rent seekers making up stuff so they can con money from an over bloated government. A tax is a tax and calling it anything else is like trying to polish a turd.
Ragebot speaks the truth! Destroy Him!!!!
Revenue neutral is too complicated a term for you?
It’s a bipartisan concept that’s from like the 80s at least.
...and is still a fraud.
"Revenue neutral is too complicated a term for you?
It’s a bipartisan concept that’s from like the 80s at least."
Not sure how bipartisan it is. Maybe kinda like if I said reverse discrimination was a bipartisan concept and you did not agree.
Look up Reagan’s revenue neutral tax bill in 1986. It didn’t end up like that was part of how it was sold.
The 80's?? My Balli-dick,
Like "Affirmative Discrimination" or "Progressive Rock" ??
if you packed the sand to be a Veteran I'd include "Friendly Fire", "Military Intelligence" and "Doctor Jill Biden"(maybe not an Oxy, but definitely a Moron)
Frank
ragebot,
" anything else is like trying to polish a turd."
Indeed thinking such as that in your comment is like polishing a turd.
More seriously you seem to think that slogans are the same ans economic and energy policy analysis.
Don, you seem to be laboring under the delusion that calling a tax by a different name, like revenue neutral tax, somehow makes it more acceptable. Kinda like trying to polish a turd.
I did not call the tax a different name. Try understanding English syntax.
stated a characteristic of the tax as it would (or should) structured in the tax code. The concept is very simple to understand even for elementary school children. The net cash flow to the Treasury from the tax is $0.
BC wants to have a carbon tax without making it more expensive for voters to emit carbon. This paper analyzes the result of such a policy.
Umm yeah, watching any random episode of "Dobie Gillis" would be time better spent
Conservative and right-leaning economics leave academia for the business sector. Economics was long ago captured by the left. Let me translate "synthetic control method" - we hacked the p-values and variable selection to come up with the results we wanted.
When real gold standard studies are actually done (Say in Oregon, with medicaid, in 2008), the results aren't the ones progressives are looking for.
The reality is that carbon taxes will simply lead to offshoring - not any environmental improvement.
So…FRAUD!!!!!!
"will simply lead to offshoring"
That is the usual rightist plea. I assure you that heavy industry is not moving to Zimbabwe or Russia.
And that we may have some political leverage with South Korea, Japan, and even China.
Don,
Ask yourself a question. Why does the US import cement?
The wrong kind of people have explanations for that. So those explanations can be casually disregarded in favor of saying it’s random chance or that it forever remains a complete mystery.
How much of a protectionist are you?
Because other countries have a comparative advantage in cement production?
And why might that be? What could give them a comparative advantage?
Why would it move to a Shithole and an Enemy when it can just Vamos south to May-He-Co, or even to the Great White North? And you're right, I don't ever see any products made in China or other Oriental nations.
I see that AL is making his usual plea.
Major economic policies should not be made in a vacuum surrounded by wishful thinking.
That is what the nutjob contingent usually does.
Don Nico 17 mins ago Flag Comment Mute User “I Major economic policies should not be made in a vacuum surrounded by wishful thinking. That is what the nutjob contingent usually does.”
Concur that major economic policies should not be made in a vacuum. That is one of the problems with this carbon tax ( to a large degree it is really just a wealth transfer tax ).
The last two major tax acts that actually addressed tax policy and economic policy in a meaningful/comprehensive / intelligent manner were the 1986 tax reform act and the 1993 tax act during the clinton administration. Far too many special interest gimmicks in most of the other tax acts to address tax policy in any comprehensive coherency.
This carbon tax/ wealth redistribution plan to a large degree is just another gimmick to entice a sector of the economy.
Joe,
The tax can be structured to have minimal redistribution effects, It is not a gimmick to hide a redistribution scheme. The goal is to promote energy efficiency by raising the price of energy. However, there will be winner and losers; there always are with every change of the tax code.
Test case.
Don, can you actually see this post? If so, respond.
Guess that's a no, eh.
1)I absolutely agree that carbon taxes are the right way to address global warming, as opposed to various kinds of government micromanagement. I have voted for them twice in WA state.
2)But Brett above is absolutely right that you need to tax imports according to their carbon costs, or you just end up having your carbon emitted overseas, which the British Columbia tax doesn't seem to do. The US steel industry, for example, is very much in competition with overseas rivals - and in fact generally produces steel with less pollution[1] per ton than overseas sources. If you consume X tons of steel before and after the the tax, but post tax you get more from overseas, you haven't improved emissions at all - you have made them worse.
[1]I dunno about CO2 specifically, but overall pollution per ton is less because the US has e.g. the EPA and so mills here have scrubbers on the smokestacks, treat effluent, etc, and many foreign competitors don't bother with that. I expect US mills also are better as far as CO2, because US mills generally have much higher labor costs (the median blue collar wage at the one I know about was $85k or so 15 years ago) and so need to lower costs^H^H^H^H be efficient elsewhere, like in energy consumption.
You voted for them? Have you paid any of them? And just curious, last time you had to travel more than a mile from home, how did you get there? I'm guessing Fossil Fuels were involved.
Crickets from Absaroka,
someone send out a search party, I think his Bicycle's gone all Senescent Joe on him....
" you need to tax imports according to their carbon costs"
Unless the purchases of goods and materials already have equivalent taxes imposed at the source.
How would you handle imports of wood, is transportation from the source nature includes taxes on energy used for transportation. Wood might even be due a credit.
Until you burn it which inevitably is what happens to most wood, in one way or another.
"Unless the purchases of goods and materials already have equivalent taxes imposed at the source."
Sure. It gets complicated pretty fast!
Indeed it does. But it is the job of the Commerce department to make such calculations. We already do that in domestic content regulations.
In general, it's going to be negative.
What's going to happen is you place a large tax on energy-intensive large firms. Manufacturing, refining, cement production, etc. That tax can then be "transferred." But this also causes a pressure to outsource the manufacturing. Outside manufacturers become more competitive (because of the higher costs on the internal manufacturers). That reduces/eliminates the local manufacturing, but also the taxes that came with it (to be used for the transfers.)
Why not get Companies to pay for Healthcare/Abortions/College while you're at it??, I mean if it doesn't affect profits or anything.
Let's add on a few more important points in regards to carbon pricing.
According to the models, large, energy intensive industries lose jobs. OK. But does consumption of the products those industries produce drop?
If consumption doesn't drop, then you're not actually saving any carbon emissions. You're just outsourcing it. You can move employment to services, but if you're still consuming the same amount of heavy-industry products, then...
Let's add on another important point that isn't addressed.
These types of taxes are designed to drive up the cost of energy, a major component of CPI. What happens when you drive up the CPI costs? You get inflation. Which again, hits the poor worst.
But hey, they're making $20/hour now fucking up orders at Wendy's
Not all energy comes from carbon. And it is precisely not designed to make energy more expensive. That’s the revenue neutral part!
S_0,
You over-simplify.
Some energy will cost more.
For example, the levelized cost of energy from coal will cost more per than that from gas or that from hydroelectric generators. Revenue neutrality will not and should not change that. Will overall costs of goods and services to consumers increase. Some may, but they should be offset by reductions in tax rates on individuals.
ALs point that this tax is designed to drive up the cost of energy and this inflation is crap. Revenue neutrality is part of why.
Agreed. But the revenue neutrlity for the Treasury does not necessarily equality of consequence with respect to different classes of energy consumers
Sure - implementation is always a challenge. That doesn’t mean never try.
Agreed.
Sarcastr0 1 hour ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"Not all energy comes from carbon. And it is precisely not designed to make energy more expensive. That’s the revenue neutral part!"
What the frick do you thinks goint to happen!
If the item is taxed, then its going to cost more.
If an item is subsidized it will cost less.
At least as CPI is concerned.
This is like paying women to get hysterectomies to solve the problem of welfare payments to single mothers. The problem caused by government justifies an even dumber government cure!
I’m not sure you understand how CPI works.
Seeing more and more on the right of ‘the things I don’t like cause inflation’
Sarcastr0 14 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"If an item is subsidized it will cost less."
Sacastro - The discussion is a tax, not a subsidy.
Read the OP. It is not long.
Sarcastro....
The "revenue neutral" part of carbon taxes applies to the taxation policy. IE, the government returns the same amount in funding that it takes in via taxes as a carbon tax. IE, it takes in $45 billion in carbon taxes, and returns $45 billion to the people via income tax rebates.
It doesn't apply to the energy costs. By taxing energy costs, it will make energy cost more. Since carbon energy costs are part of that, it will make that part cost more, which means energy costs overall will cost more.
This is pretty basic....
Did you read the OP?
You are playing in a land where you make up all the events and decisions. Simple, but dumb.
No....I am playing in a land where I read the actual papers, and use the definitions cited in them.
This is from the introduction of the second linked paper, and described what is actually meant by revenue neutral.
"In the debate over different policy instruments for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, many economists propose revenue-neutral carbon taxes, with all revenue raised from the tax being directly recycled to households and businesses. Two alternative policy options are either a carbon tax with offsetting cuts to other taxes, or a carbon tax and dividend,1 with the revenue being fully returned through lump-sum transfers to households."
Once you acknowledge your mistake, we can continue.
Sacastro - our non economics expert
Before carbon tax
product costs $100
Buyer pays $100
product costs $100 + $10 tax = $110
Buyer gets $10 rebate from government
buyer pays $110
Granted, the increase in price may not be the full $10, due to the effects of the supply and demand curves, but a significant portion of the increase carbon tax does get passed onto the consumer.
As I have previously noted, Sacastro would greatly benefit from a freshman level micro economics course.
…and of course you are not accounting from the loss that occurs in administering the tax.
Efficiency is not a part of any government action.
Once again you come in hot and have not read the OP and don’t know what you are talking about but will still call me wrong.
Sacastro - take a micro economic course
He doesn't believe in microeconomics.
"And it is precisely not designed to make energy more expensive. "
No, that is not the revenue neutral part.
Energy is made more expensive. Why? because energy has a tax added.
That you may (or may not) have more money to by more expensive energy is not what revenue neutrality means. neutrality mean that the net cash flow to the Treasury is zero.
In the policy in the study the tax revenues were spent on subsidies. Which as you realize makes energy net zero in expense.
Sarcastr0 4 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"In the policy in the study the tax revenues were spent on subsidies. Which as you realize makes energy net zero in expense."
Which indicates that the carbon tax is just a circle jerk exercise to accomplish nothing
Read. The. Fucking. OP.
Sacastro - If you understood micro economics - you would understand my comment and you would understand the OP
Good to see your maturity
The OP is about a policy that includes both taxes and subsidies. It seems you missed that.
You were not alone.
But you were the only one trying to pretend your misunderstanding is actually you knowing microeconomics. I may be wrong, but not in any way you are tracking.
You do love to claim that that the experts don’t understand the real answers, but you do, in economics, epidemiology, climate.
Your certainty doesn’t make you an expert.
The OP describes a policy that, so far as I can tell, has no subsidies. It taxes certain industries, and then gives the money to poor people in the form of a tax cut.
Granted, "taxes and welfare" doesn't sound as good.
"Taxes and subsidies" would be something like taxing the carbon use and using the money to lower prices, not just giving the money to some favored group.
You say if, and then just act like demand is utterly constant for all things. And production is already at maximum efficiency.
So US Oil Production magically dropped 50% since Senescent Joe and his Pretend Doctor Second Wife entered the Oval Orifice??
I mean it must have, given that prices have doubled (doubled? been to San Fran Sissy-co lately?? enough to make "Scorpio" stop hijacking School buses and just steal them outright for the Diesel...
Frank
I’m not crazy about carbon taxes because if they’re not being agressively targeted at the worst emitters – and the US Military is one of the worst emitters and polluters globally, so how would that even work – but passed on to the ordinary tax-payer and everyone below, what’s the bloody point? They won’t change anything and they’ll make everyone mad and cynical about tackling climate change. Like anything else they can be done right or wrong, and they could be a powerful tool for emissions reduction, but compromises and half-measures brought about by powerful industry lobbyists push them towards the wrong.
"I’m not crazy ..."
Could have fooled us.
You're easily fooled.
Nige Nige 16 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"You’re easily fooled."
keep mirrors away from Nige
The hamster has spoken.
Big picture:
Should everyone, of every time period, artificially impoverish their society on the chance that it might somehow benefit some future people?
If the people of 2022 should be artificially poor for the people of 2040, then surely the people of 2040 have the same duty to lead artificially poor lives for the people of 2070. Do we want to place that burden on everyone, for all time? Why?
What will the people of 2040 be like? They’ll know everything we know, plus a lot more. They’ll have all the technological gains we don’t forego by artificially impoverishing ourselves. They’ll have everything we have plus everything we build before then. Why not let them solve their own problems with their greater knowledge and capabilities?
The alternative is limiting ourselves, and hence limiting them, and everyone, for all time. Why is that somehow better?
Our actions are already set to impoverish present and future societies - that's what climate change is. The question is whether you take action to divert a disaster or walk blithely - no-one can say blindly any more - into it. If the people in charge just decades ago had reacted sanely to the well-understood problem that was coming down the track even then, we wouldn't be stuck with the choice of drastic changes now, or worsening disasters in the years to come. We're not talking about 'future generations,' either, we're talking about our kids. Do we learn from mistakes or repeat them?
So your ideal time horizon is zero? I think your economics is a bit overly tuned.
I have no clue what you think you mean.
Can you elaborate? Why should everyone be artificially poor forever to benefit richer, more capable future people?
Ben_ — To better match reality, turn the question around. Why should you be artificially rich now at the expense of today's young people? Just because you enjoy the artificial richness you get from your carbon subsidy, right?
No such subsidy exists. But if it did, then it’s available to the people of the future, same as now. How is that at their expense?
Even completely granting the premise, the people of the future are richer and more capable. If any theoretical transfer has to go either way, it should go to the people who need it more, not the people who need it less. The stuff we build with [whatever] will still be around in 2040 for them to use.
" artificially rich now at the expense of today’s young people"
Classic begging the question. Plus the innuendo trick; when did you stop abusing your children?
My ideal time horizon is very long. But most of what government does is very short. Carbon taxes are a mix of both. Sure, climate change has a small chance of being very bad in the future, but it also has a chance of being good (see David Friedman for more explanation). But the taxes are immediately bad, and hinder the ability to outgrow climate change as a bad. For example, if we had a freer market today, in 50 years we might be able to balance our entire atmosphere however we wish for .001% of GDP.
Climate change is 100% being very bad right now, and thanks to the slow pace of response, it getting worse is locked in.
Well then, if that's the case: Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
die needlessly and pointlessly.
Edit: Sorry, that came across as me delivering an evil-eye curse...
Nige 4 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"Climate change is 100% being very bad right now, and thanks to the slow pace of response, it getting worse is locked in."
might suggest you get your science information from sources other than skeptical science, real climate, CNN, NPR NYT or WP
Only get information from Joe_dallas-approved sources. Got it.
just get science info from credible sources
The sites I mentioned are not -
I just pointed out some of the worst offenders.
What a pity your hamster is not an authority on credibility.
Nige 5 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"Climate change is 100% being very bad right now, and thanks to the slow pace of response, it getting worse is locked in."
difficult to discuss climate change with a religous fanatic
Though Nige can you give us examples of "100% being very bad right now"
the world hurricane ICE index basically unchanged since the 1850's,
Same with tornado's
Same with flooding
give us some real world examples - not from advocacy claims
The
Massive heatwaves in China, India, the Horn Of Africa, the floods in Pakistan, the floods last year in Germany, massive ongoing drought in the US Midwest, and all those hurricanes and tornadoes are all intensifying.
It's called weather. It happens.
Nige - you repeat bogus advocacy claims instead of actual scientific historical facts
The global ACE index (hurricane accumulated cyclone energyO has remained basicly unchanged since the 1850's (after adjustment for observational deficiencies). Kinda blows the lid off the AGW advocates claim that warming SST is causing and will cause greater hurricane intensity.
Same with tornado's
Wasn't that a Letterman Bit? "In the Year 2000!!!"
could be updated, but they wouldn't get away with it now,
"In the Year 2022!!!!!!!" "Jews will vote in overwhelming numbers for a Disciple of the Reverend Jeremiah Wright!!!" (would have been true in 2008, 2012...)
"In the Year 2022!!!!!" "Doctors will face prosecution for NOT cutting off a perfectly healthy woman's Breasts, Labia, Clit, Uterus, and Ovaries"
Frank
My Bad, a "Conan" bit (whatever happened to Conan??")
The B.C. NDP (socialist) government abandoned the idea of a revenue neutral carbon tax in the 2017 budget, and it is now a major source of general revenue. Missing in this study is the impact on middle class families from higher gasoline prices, higher prices for almost all goods due to the cost of diesel for production and transport, and the effect of taxes piled on taxes: carbon tax is increased by GVRD transit taxes on that and the whole sum further increased by GST on the lot.
lots of other items missing from the study.
The BC study is not so much a study as a pro carbon tax advocacy report.