The Volokh Conspiracy
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Why Rationalist Religions Failed
Reviewing "The Church of Saint Thomas Paine"
Positivism seems to be having a bit of a moment. To give just one example, last month, COMPACT ran a very interesting essay on Comte's "Religion of Humanity," a nineteenth-century version of a post-Christian faith, complete with priests, a calendar, and rituals, that substituted science for God. The Religion of Humanity failed to take off, but plenty of people seem to think that a new version, a Silicon Valley inspired techno-utopianism of the "brights," may be the civil religion of the American future.
I'm skeptical. One reason is the nineteenth-century experience. Comtean rationalism failed to overcome a basic incoherence: if organized religion is bunk, why start a new one? Also, rationalism fails to respond to a longing for the transcendent that is inherent in the human condition and that has been especially powerful in America, ever since the Puritans.
At First Things today, I review a new book, The Church of Saint Thomas Paine by historian Leigh Eric Schmidt, that explores the failure of nineteenth-century American positivism. It's an interesting book--especially for me, because it recounts the story of my great-granduncle, M.M. Mangasarian, an Armenian immigrant who came to America in the 1870s, went to Princeton, and ultimately founded his own rationalist religion in Chicago. (These things happen in the best of families). Here's an excerpt:
Inspired by the French positivist Auguste Comte and the American transcendentalist Ralph Waldo Emerson, and taking the eighteenth-century freethinker Thomas Paine as a kind of patron saint, a small group of Americans attempted to found a rationalist "religion" with science as its highest authority. They started congregations in cities like New York, Chicago, and Portland; they held meetings on Sunday mornings to compete with Christian rivals; they even wrote catechisms and ran Sunday Schools to indoctrinate new members. All confidently believed they were the vanguard of a new, secular religion that would displace Christianity and promote human progress.
But the new religion failed. The congregations attracted few followers; typically, as one British humorist wrote, these were churches "of three persons, but no God." Most fizzled out or merged with larger groups like the Unitarians. Other than cranks who seemed as credulous as the believers they mocked, Americans had little interest in Comte's wedding and funeral ceremonies or the relics of secular saints. (In 1905, after a long quest, a small group of freethinkers placed something they claimed to be a piece of Thomas Paine's brain, sold to them for five pounds by an obscure London bookseller, in a monument in New Rochelle.)
Schmidt shows that rationalist congregations failed because organizers never resolved basic inconsistencies. Rationalism valued science and rejected metaphysics. Why, then, collect relics and meet weekly for thinly disguised worship services? Moreover, rationalism "made intellectual independence and the displacement of all religious authorities foundational to its platform." Paine himself had railed against organized religion, famously declaring, "my own mind is my own church." Similarly, although Emerson had prophesied a new religion with "science" for its "symbol," he insisted on individual spiritual autonomy: "I go for Churches of one." What, then, was the point of joining a new religion, even a rationalist one? People who share only a commitment to radical individualism and an opposition to religious orthodoxy are unlikely to form an enduring community.
You can read the review here.
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The bottom line is rationalism is the diametric opposite of faith. The idea of a "rational" church is a mass of contradictions.
Ignorance was stamped out decades ago. Look who got left behind.
St Augustine of Hippo
St Anselm of Canterbury
St Thomas Aquinas aka Dumb Ox
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Paul Tillich
Martin Buber
CS Lewis
JRR Tolkein
GK Chesterton
John Henry Newman
Pope John Paul II
to name a few, not that you have ever read anything by these Christian intellectuals
I went through the Catholic education system. Happen to have read them all.
I don’t recall a single one of them suggest the use of double blind, laboratory condition rated, scientific method inquiry methodology to test to prove or disprove the existence of a higher being, ergo all religions by definition must require an element of faith.
OK. Have you tried it? When you have to choose between taking two different courses of action in your life, do you randomize replicates of yourself, assign them to take the different actions, look to see which one is best, and then go back in time and take the action your “self”?
Maybe one group of selves marries this person, one marries that person? One takes this job, one that job? One studies this subject,one that subject? Then you use the results of your randomized experiments to decide whom to marry, what job to take, what to study?
I guess I fail since I married my wife because she had a hot ass.
Perhaps that might be thought of as a kind of faith.
We all take note of the past tense.
You know, the literature contains an account of an actual experimental test to determine which gods are real and which aren't. Good old 1 Kings 18:20-40, the story of Elijah and the Prophets of Baal.
The weird thing is, if you propose a normal attempt at a replication, the very people who most strongly insist that the account is accurate are the ones who tell you that they don't expect it to replicate. Perhaps Jehovah is sleeping?
I don’t recall a single one of them suggest the use of double blind,
The test is not in the decision made. But in your acceptance of the results.
You wont understand that, but study of your faith will get you there eventually. Its simple, but not easy.
Like who?
Followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
May His Noodly Appendages Touch You
I recall the debate in the skeptical community about what term to use. "Brights" had the obvious downside of seeming extra super snotty.
The Seitanic Temple, proud sponsors of After School Seitan Hour? (I think that's the name, although I have never understood why some people like gluten cakes so much.)
Maybe Rev Arthur Kirkland.
"larger groups like the Unitarians"
2022 Unitarians are certainly a "rationalist" religion, whatever their origins as an actual religion.
Not sure you really have the inside scoop on Unitarians.
"Religion of Humanity"
Well that's your problem right there -- people SUCK!
And in an era of "I'm a girl because I feel like it," you can forget about rationality and science!
Poor rationality (and science) - stuck with irrational people and no theory to account for it! Or as Ms. Morrissette put it "ten thousand spoons when you need a knife".
So... it's not irony?
In the pantheon of historical figures who have greatly help us on our way, it always seemed to be the individuals doing there own thing.
Incoming "Klinger" comment from "Reverend" Jerry in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1......
I admit showing-up to see the Rev's inevitable comment.....
Me too
I disbelieve all religions but as a practical matter I think conservative religion “works” in a way liberal religion doesn’t because it appeals to the worst in humanity rather than the best.
Yeah, a Surpreme Being who lets Creeps like Khomeni, Mao, Castro, Pelosi live long pretty healthy lives, then gives 2 year olds Medulloblastomas is hard to feature, (and don't get me started on Nick Satan) but hey, just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean it isn't true (check out the Kreb's Cycle sometime, oughta be he "Rube Goldberg" Cycle)
Frank "Observant Jew, when people are watching"
Frank
“Observant Jew, when people are watching”Jew in name onlyWhen Bad Things Happen to Good People
By Rabbi Harold S. Kushner
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/96404/when-bad-things-happen-to-good-people-by-harold-s-kushner/
Yatusabes, I think you may be new here, but if you're looking for intelligent conversation, well, the fact that Frank included Nancy Pelosi in the same list as Khomeini, Mao, and Castro, should tell you something. Frank, when Pelosi advocates death camps and firing squads, get back to us. Until then, that's an incredibly stupid comment even for you.
Considering several Democrats have met with Castro, praised him and still defend him, you might want to ... um ... modify your statement.
I doubt any of them praised Castro for his human rights violations, but if you have a contrary citation I'll be glad to look at it. Republican presidents have met with, and praised, various Chinese leaders over the years but I doubt anyone thinks that that means they approve of Chinese human rights violations either. And if that's your claim -- meeting with someone and finding something nice to say about him is the same as engaging in human rights violations, then you're even nuttier than Frank.
So, they were basically saying, "At least Mussolini made the trains run on time!"?
No, they mostly say "At least Castro created an awesome health care system."
In point of fact, Mussolini did make the trains run on time and Castro did create an awesome health care system, which does not make up for the other horrible things they did. But just because someone is a bad person who does bad things doesn't mean you can't recognize the occasional good they do. Had Osama bin Laden found the cure for cancer, I would have been just fine with giving him the Nobel Prize for medicine and then taking him to the nearest gallows to be hanged for 9/11. One has nothing to do with the other.
So Great Castro came to the US for his Aortic Valve Replacement, (and to take in a show)
Totalitarian states have always been able to pick one or two things, and excel at them, at the cost of everything else turning to crap, because they can over-ride the normal market mechanisms that enable free societies to do thousands of different things acceptably well at the same time.
At least until the terminal stage where they've turned so much of the economy into that crap that they no longer have enough resources to do even one thing well.
And if they're excelling at something, it's a true statement to point out that they're excelling at it. Doesn't mean it's not also true that there are other areas in which they're behaving horribly. One has nothing to do with the other. I'm having trouble understanding why you think this simple, obvious point deserves so much attention.
At least Khomeni, Mao, and Castro limited their Atrocities to those already born, Jeez, doesn't anyone recognize a set up for a counterpunch anymore???
Did they? China's one-child policy didn't enforce itself, and Cuba pushes women to have abortions in order to keep their infant mortality rate low (among other reasons).
Allowing women to make their own choices isn't an atrocity.
The unborn baby might disagree with your assessment...
It’s not a baby, but for sake of argument suppose it is. There is still a huge difference between actively killing it yourself versus merely not intervening when someone else does. Nancy Pelosi does not support killing anything; she merely thinks the state should stay out of it.
Only doing to an unborn baby what she did to Trump's State of the Onion.
When Bad Things Happen to Good People
By Rabbi Harold S. Kushner
Excellent book. We are not Jewish, nor raised in your tradition. But both my mother and my wife, when faced with what seemed to be devastating loss, at the time, benefited from the book. As did the rest of us experiencing loss.
The answer, from the book, as I understand it, is that an omnipotent God allows bad things to happen to good people is that, sure he could intervene, but if he did, we would lose free will. Our faith in God would, ultimately depend on what he did for us, thus biasing our faith. Adding in a Christian gloss, it is only by staying his hand during life, that God can judge us in the afterlife. It is only when we have, then exercise, free will during life, that choosing faith has any relevance.
because it appeals to the worst in humanity rather than the best.
You have strong opinions about things you know nothing of.
What I have is the ability to observe. Conservatism is based on fears and anger; liberalism is based on hope. The liberal says "We can make the world a better place." The conservative says, "No you can't and besides it will raise my taxes." And for purposes of this discussion it doesn't even matter which of them is right; the point is that the liberal is appealing to our better instincts and the conservative isn't.
That's true of both religion and politics. "My God is inclusive and welcomes everyone" is an appeal to our better natures. "My God only welcomes people who are like me" (including, like me theologically) isn't.
During normal times, I think I’d agree with the OP re creation of a new religion. But now, there seem to be huge incentives to doing so. Especially so if you’re searching for a way to legally discriminate (against a group[s] that, without a religious hook, you’re currently not allowed to mistreat). Or where you want an affirmative right that people are not giving you/people are trying to take away from you. I think you could poll potential followers on what beliefs to enshrine. And this would not have to be aimed at one political side or the other. How about a religion where it’s mandated that you carry a weapon whenever possible (“Thou shalt be thus armed, to ensure protection of your neighbor and yourself.”)? And a woman has a moral obligation to obtain an abortion, unless she can demonstrate that she deserves an exception (which will always be granted, in cases where a woman’s says aloud, “I want to keep this pregnancy.”). (There are too many bloody humans already on this planet, so thou shalt not reproduce, absent good cause.”) Of course, there will be bad rights as well, to ensure we bring in sufficient people to convince courts that it’s a “real” religion. (“Interracial marriages are a stain on humanity, so thou shalt not enter into such a union. Nor shalt thou help or assist in any way anyone attempting to enter into such a union or attempting to live their lives in such a union.”)
As long as religions get all sorts of “get out of jail free” carve-outs; it seems perfectly logical and rational to create one’s own religion, to get one’s fair share of these special privileges.
And so on. Pick about 10 of the most popular ones, and you’re off to the races. (I think it goes without saying that merely having this new religion, with these new religions mandates/beliefs, does NOT mean you'll automatically win in each court case. You won't. But it's a great head start, legally-speaking.)
I think the trick would be to find a religion that has fallen into desuetude and revive it - IMO it's harder to argue against the validity of an existing religion than one you've set up yourself.
Hmm. Interesting point. Maybe Zoroastrianism? Zarathustra hasn’t done much for anyone lately. And, thanks to the immortal Pete Seeger, the new religion already has its first piece of liturgical music.
♪ ♫ We will pray with Zarathustra. We’ll pray just like we used’ta. I’m a Zarathustra boosta’ And that’s good enough for me.
Oh, give me that old time religion . . . [and so on] ♫ ♪ ♪
[On the bad side; it's an Iranian religion, so many courts will immediately look askance.
On the good side, it's an Iranian pre-Muslim religion, so maybe not tainted (unfairly!!!) by this association.
On the bad side, it is still an Iranian religion, so . . .]
If I am not mistaken, you have to be born into Zoroastrianism. They don't take converts.
OK, Mithraism, then.
Archaeologists of the distant future would be very upset.
Umm…umm….It’s very much a live religion. Freddie Mercury was one of many famous modern Zoroastrians. He was raised Zoroastrian; his family had been Zoroastrians in India for thousands of years. Getting persecuted by a lot of Middle Eastern regimes lately, especially in places like Iran, but they definitely still exist.
Zoroastrianism did a lot for Freddie Mercury. It influenced some of his most famous songs, like Bohemian Rhapsody.
https://news.ufl.edu/articles/2018/11/freddie-mercurys-family-faith-the-ancient-religion-of-zoroastrianism.html
There’s an active Zoroastrian temple in New York, the Dar E Mehr Zoroastrian Temple, DMZT.
https://www.dmzt.org/
Yes, yes. I know that. Please don't ruin a good joke with the facts. (I assume I will *never* have another opportunity to drop in that Pete Seeger stanza of "Old Time Religion." Zarathustra just doesn't come up very often.)
When I registered at law school, the form had a question asking for my religion. The form said it was optional but if I selected a religion my name might be forwarded to campus or off-campus religious groups.
Given that it was optional and the purpose seemed innocuous, I resisted the urge to write in "None of your f*****g business," and, instead, plugged in Zoroastrian as a mild joke. Once I left, I realized that I was now in New York City and spent several nights wondering if someone from a local Zoroastrian congregation would come knocking on my door. Never did happen.
I came here to say this. Santamonica beat me to it yesterday, apparently!
I would add that creating a new religion is not particularly difficult under US law. The Scientologists did it under particularly suspect circumstances. The IRS tried to undermine their standing as a church for years (probably correctly, but that's another matter) and ultimately gave up (er, "settled"). The ease of defining one's own religion is an important feature of the free exercise clause....
...which is why SCOTUS is navigating in the wrong direction on religious freedom. We are a pluralistic and secular society. We want people of all faiths in the land. But unless they give Caesar what is Caesar's (in our case regulatory compliance, tolerance, and taxes) religions turn into escape hatches from governance. Forming a positivist religion based in science is a natural response to seeing superstitious citizens receiving special privileges.
It appears Thomas Paine not only died penniless and without friends but a victim of his own arrogance. No thanks. You reap what you sow
Of the cortege that followed Paine a contemptuous account was printed (Aug. 7th) in the London Packet:
Extract of a letter dated June 20th, Philadelphia, written by a gentleman lately returned from a tour: `On my return from my journey, when I arrived near Harlem, on York island, I met the funeral of Tom Paine on the road. It was going on to East Chester. The followers were two negroes, the next a carriage with six drunken Irishmen, then a riding chair with two men in it, one of whom was asleep, and then an Irish Quaker on horseback. I stopped my sulkey to ask the Quaker what funeral it was; he said it was Paine, and that his friends as well as his enemies were all glad that he was gone, for he had tired his friends out by his intemperance and frailties. I told him that Paine had done a great deal of mischief in the world, and that, if there was any purgatory, he certainly would have a good share of it before the devil would let him go. The Quaker replied, he would sooner take his chance with Paine than any man in New York, on that score. He then put his horse on a trot, and left me.’”
https://thomaspaine.org/pages/resources/life-of-thomas-paine-vol-ii-by-moncure-conway.html
Do you really think a London publication in those days would give a sympathetic account of somebody like Tom Paine?
I am not sure what it means for a religion to "fail." If few people say they are believers, does that mean it has failed?
Is the major value of religion defined by the number of people who follow it?
Or is it defined by the value it brings to those who adopt it? I would have thought the latter.
I agree that a scientific approach to religion does not make much sense. It leaves one with no religion at all. So maybe the scientific approach succeeded, with fewer followers of religion now than there were 100 years ago.
Great that we have freedom of not religion along with freedom of religion. Many people even today live in places where they do not have that choice.
The intent of most modern religions, particularly this sort, was to create a like-minded community that would inspire outsiders to join. They wanted the trappings and benefits of such communities without a belief in divinity. On that count they most certainly failed.
Choose reason. Every time.
Choose reason. Especially over sacred ignorance and dogmatic intolerance. Most especially if you are older than 12 or so. By then, childhood indoctrination fades as an excuse for gullibility, bigotry, ignorance, backwardness, and superstition. By adulthood -- this includes ostensible adulthood -- it is no excuse, not even in the most desolate, uneducated backwater one might find.
Choose reason. Every time. And modernity, inclusiveness, freedom, science, education, and progress. Avoid backwardness, bigotry, insularity, superstition, ignorance, dogma, authoritarianism, and pining for good old days that never existed. Not 75 years ago. Not 175 years ago. Not 2,000 years ago. Never, except in fairy tales suitable solely for children.
Choose reason. Every time. Be an adult.
Or, at least, please try.
Thank you.
Costco’s finest!
I prefer the Church of the Exalted John Moses Browning, of which I am the Archbishop.
Religion and politics are the same phenomenon. Sociologists noted in Europe that, as government took over more and more of what religions did (care for the sick, help the poor, help orphans, etc.) that there was a proportional decrease in organized religiosity.
Both seek to gather many people so they can seize actual power, then force themselves on those unwilling to be persuaded.
The First Amendment, without realizing it, was just an early but important battle, that technical religions lost.
As long as modern religions, AKA politics, continue unchecked, it will lead to the same problems.
Already we see politics adopting other religious tricks, like social ostracism and “if you are not with us, you are against us”, recall TV preachers loudly declaring there is no 3rd way, Jesus or you are working for the devil.
Whoever thought that up and applied it to politics is one clever but historically evil son* of a bitch.
* I am going to go out on a limb it was a man.
But with politics you have tangible results that you can assess and then make future decisions.
Did my taxes go up or down?
Did a bridge get built?
Is crime up or down?
Is abortion legal in my state?
Should we get more or less involved in the Ukraine?
You then vote for your party/candidate(s) based on the results you're looking for.
You can't (rationally) assess whether God/Allah/Xuba/Nana Buluku/Xwedê did a good job.
Not in time for it to matter, anyway.
But you can still judge religions, more broadly schools of thought, by their fruit. Are the members generally nice people to be around, or assholes? Are they pursuing charity or atrocities?
I suppose the Truth with a capital T could have horrible consequences, but if so that would undercut the case for pursuing it.
I don't have any citations to give you, but I'd say that "cancel culture" is being driven mainly by women.
Dare I point out that “rationalism” involves philosophies that attempt to obtain knowledge by mental processes that deduce conclusions from assumed axioms, often viewing mathematics as the highest and most exalted branch of knowledge, whereas “empiricism” involves philosophies that attempt to obtain knowledge based on the experiences of the senses? Many rationalist philosophies are theist, for example, Descartes’. One simply expresses faith in terms of dogmas, and those become the axioms from which things get deduced. Not is empiricism entirely devoid of theists either.
If you think this distinction is dead, one need only look at the history of economics in the last few decades to see rationalists looking down their noses at empiricists, lesser economists and mere sociologists who mess with piddly stuff like field work and experiments because they aren’t smart enough and aren’t good enough at advanced math to do the really whiz-bang, genius stuff that the smart people do.
One of my critiques of libertarianism, brought up multiple times in this blog, is that it is based largely on rationalist lines, similar to much of classical economics, and doesn’t grapple very well with (and at times doesn’t seem to think very well of) empirical experience. The two are very different and shouldn’t be conflated.
A key identification mark of rationalism as distinct from empiricism is the idea that the smart people, and intellectually impressive theories, are the best source of truth. As economics shows, sometimes the dumb people and comparatively simple explanations grounded in empirical observation outperform what the smart people say.
This has been one of my sources of objection to, for example, Professor Somin. If displays of mental virtuosity aren’t actually the primary source of knowledge, then one shouldn’t be so quick to assume that the dumb people are wrong just because one knows one is smarter than they are. They may see things the smart people do not see. And as a result, they may know things the smart people do not know.
Smart people getting cause and effect backwards.
People of like mind formed churches. Not the other way around.
Leaving out Jews and Muslims, so as not to muddy the debate.
Christianity started with adherents. Those people found each other, and turned to each other to flesh out their faith and how to live it in their lives. These gatherings became the "Church". First, the emotional, cultural safe harbor, expanding to stone structures to enhance their experiences.
Why would anybody want to do a bunch of ceremonies and mumbo-jumbo for something they think is totally made up? If you want fancy made-up ceremonies and fraternity, why not join a fraternal organization? That’s traditionally been their role.
"...if organized religion is bunk, why start a new one? Also, rationalism fails to respond to a longing for the transcendent that is inherent in the human condition and that has been especially powerful in America..."
Deism, belief in The Supreme Intelligence/God based on reason and nature, makes the most sense. Deism is free of clergy, dogma, "holy" scriptures and rituals, and at the same time provides a transcendent experience.
I like this quote from the Deist Thomas Paine that is in The Age of Reason, The Complete Edition: "There is a happiness in Deism, when rightly understood, that is not to be found in any other system of religion. All other systems have something in them that either shock our reason, or are repugnant to it, and man, if he thinks at all, must stifle his reason in order to force himself to believe them." ( https://www.deism.com/post/of-the-religion-of-deism-compared-to-the-christian-religion )
I have long thought that the religion of the Olympian gods of Greece and Rome best fits the facts: the universe is run by committee and its members work at cross-purposes.
I think the reason they tend to fail is they impose too few demands. If someone tried a rationalist religion with all the demands for regular participation in weekly services, rituals etc it might do better since, paradoxically, the more expensive the religious commitments often the more ppl find it compelling.
But they start with the huge disadvantage of drawing from a population who is heavily disposed to not go along with ritual etc for it's own sake.