Today in Supreme Court History: December 6, 1865

12/6/1865: The 13th Amendment is ratified.

Comments

[Martinned]

That went well...

https://humantraffickingsearch.org/2017627modern-day-slavery-many-southern-states-have-prison-inmates-working-in-governors-mansions-and-capitol-buildings/

[Martinned]

Calvin Johnson highlighted the labor that inmates at Angola prison do, such as working in fields picking cotton and corn (many on the same fields enslaved people worked 200 years prior). Prisoners get paid $0.04 to $1.00 per hour. Regular (non-industry) work assignments are paid up to $.20/hour. Johnson also detailed how inmates not only perform industry jobs, but twenty to twenty-five inmates also work inside the capitol on three different crews. These crews are one for the senate, house, and governor’s office suite. In addition, another fifteen to eighteen offenders tend to the landscaping outside. About sixteen inmates work in the governor’s mansion.

https://www.vianolavie.org/2022/08/16/modern-day-slavery-through-the-prison-system/

[Bob from Ohio]

"work inside the capitol on three different crews. These crews are one for the senate, house, and governor’s office suite"

My god, Moping floors, doing laundry and taking out garbage! The horror!

I guess I'm a slave too.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

No, Bob, you are not a slave. You are a disaffected, stale-thinking bigot from the desolate part of Ohio that is a walking corpse . . . and the target audience of this white, male, right-wing, faux libertarian blog.

[Frank Drackman]

Good one Jerry, how's Penn State looking for the Rose Bowl??? (Jeez, remember when the Rose Bowl meant something??)

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky were -- in addition to gigantic hypocrites and stains on decent society -- registered Republicans and reliable supporters of conservative causes in Pennsylvania's deplorable backwaters.

Carry on, clingers.

(Try to imagine how pathetic it must be to be a Republican, Catholic or evangelical Penn State or Baylor fan these days.)

[Both Sides]

As a long-suffering fan of the Detroit Lions, after reading the name "Calvin Johnson," I thought maybe this was going to be an argument that having to play for that team violated the 13th Amendment. Obviously it's a different Calvin, but I would still be willing to give a fair hearing to the argument I imagined.

[Martinned]

A report published by the American Civil Liberties Union in June 2022 found about 800,000 prisoners out of the 1.2 million in state and federal prisons are forced to work, generating a conservative estimate of $11bn annually in goods and services while average wages range from 13 cents to 52 cents per hour. Five states – Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas – force prisoners to work without pay. The report concluded that the labor conditions of US prisoners violate fundamental human rights to life and dignity.

A campaign to amend the constitution at the federal level and end the exception of the 13th amendment is being promoted by the US representative Nikema Williams and the senator Jeff Merkley. The bill has 175 co-sponsors in the House, 170 Democrats and 5 Republicans, and 14 co-sponsors in the US Senate, but has yet to leave committee for a floor vote in either the House or Senate.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/27/slavery-loophole-unpaid-labor-in-prisons

[Mr. Bumble]

As the de facto foreign correspondent for VC, got any examples of how prisoners are treated on the enlightened continent?

[Sarcastr0]

Don't tu quoque this.

Hows about we work on cleaning our own mess, and not make excuses for it.

The incentives we set up here are awful.

[Mr. Bumble]

Fuck you, you control freak. Now you direct who can ask a question?

[Bob from Ohio]

"cleaning our own mess"

What mess? Prisoners doing productive labor to occupy their time and taxpayers get the cost of prisons offset. Win, win.

[Martinned]

Yes. Marvellous how many cost savings you can create with some nice, pleasant slavery.

[Bob from Ohio]

They committed crimes, its punishment, not slavery.

Don't want to clean the governor mansion, don't commit crimes.

[Martinned]

You realise that your "make criminals suffer as much as possible" stance puts you on the same side as Iran and Saudi-Arabia in this debate, right? If you're going to punish people by enslaving them, why not cut their hands off or whip them?

[Martinned]

If only I had supplied some links to articles that answer that question...

Anne Marie Heckscher, the area manager of Denmark’s prison and probation service, tells how roughly 60% of inmates are placed in these open prisons, and most prisoners in closed facilities will ultimately finish their sentences in open prisons. She states in a Vice article how she would define open prisons as a prison without a fence. She highlights how prisoners are paid for the work they do or the education they receive. They are paid the equivalent of the minimum unemployment benefits allowed to Danish citizens (Unemployment benefits) as of 2022, which is DKK 19.351 per month (equivalent to 2,646 United states dollars).

In a nutshell, what civilised countries do is not make work mandatory, and pay at least minimum wage for the work that is done.

[Mr. Bumble]

Thank you.

[Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf]

No, what you mean is you define civilised countries as those which take money from the workers and give it to the bums.

[Bob from Ohio]

"bums"

Not even, bums are usually harmless. Its taking money from victims and giving to predators.

[Martinned]

I define "civilised countries" as "countries that don't enslave people", yes. I'm silly that way.

[Bob from Ohio]

You are a very silly person, yes.

Its punishment for crimes, not slavery

[Nige]

Forcing people to work for almost-nothing as a punishment is slavery. It's what they replaced slavery with back in the day, rounding up black men for minor or made-up crimes, giving them long sentences and forcing them to work for nothing.

[Brett Bellmore]

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

Slavery is still constitutional in the US, in the case of convicted criminals, as part of their punishment.

[Mr. Bumble]

Is prison itself slavery or just uncompensated work?

[Brett Bellmore]

I would just say the work.

But what makes work “slavery” isn’t the level of compensation. It’s not having a choice about doing it.

I don’t really see the problem with requiring prisoners to work, so long as it’s not outrageously harsh or dangerous work. They’re not in prison to take a vacation, after all. Might as well get some useful work out of them.

And it certainly isn’t a constitutional violation, the 13th amendment explicitly permits it, as the linked to article concedes.

Sure, it infringes their rights. So does locking them up! So that’s hardly a valid point.

The only valid argument I see against prison labor is that it might potentially create nasty incentives for the criminal justice system, if any of the profits made their way back to it.

[apedad]

". . . so long as it’s not outrageously harsh or dangerous work."

Agree and will add that any/all work should meet state and federal safety standards including hours worked, etc.

[Martinned]

But what makes work “slavery” isn’t the level of compensation. It’s not having a choice about doing it.

My earlier reply seems to have gotten stuck in moderation, but yes and no. From that Guardian article, first there is this:

Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi and Texas – force prisoners to work without pay.

And then there is the question of how voluntary the work is, if there are consequences to not working:

Refusing a work assignment can also have adverse consequences, he said, ranging from being placed in solitary confinement to having any work issues placed on your record which affects parole and status within a prison that determines what privileges you receive.

and

“Prison itself is expensive,” said White. “I can only speak for the state of Alabama where I was incarcerated, so providing hygiene, trying to supplement the lack of nourishment is very expensive, and my family had their own bills and financial responsibilities they had to take care of. I still had more support than most people did and it was still very difficult to survive in prison because everything has a cost associated with it.”

White explained there were medical fees associated with received medical care and sometimes the food provided was not fit for human consumption.

[Brett Bellmore]

I don't see any basis for the "no" in your quotes. Forced to work without pay is forced to work. But so is being forced to work WITH pay. They're both slavery, because you don't get a choice about working.

And I'm glad to count those 'consequences' as force, if the baseline conditions with the consequences are bad enough.

But, again, so what? We're taking about people being punished. They're locked up, that's a rights violation, too.

I just don't see why locking them up is OK, but requiring them to do some work isn't.

[Martinned]

Not being forced to pay as long as you're happy to starve or spend your time in solitary is also being forced to work. (If you like, think of how someone who is being held at gunpoint is free to hand over their wallet or not.)

And indeed, this is another example of where I wanted to flag the problem without expecting to convince anybody. Many Americans have profoundly different values than civilised countries do.

(Then again, in Japan they execute people without any advance warning. What does that make them??)

[Nige]

Imagine if you paid them fairly for their work, they might end up with enough money banked not to feel the need to go back to criming when they got out.

Anyway, this support for exploitation and profiteering from a literal captive work-force in the context of people claiming that baking a cake for a gay marriage is tantamount to slavery is kind of grim.

[bernard11]

The only valid argument I see against prison labor is that it might potentially create nasty incentives for the criminal justice system, if any of the profits made their way back to it.

Might potentially? I'd say the probability is pretty decent, as is the chance that the governor's buddy somehow gets to use the prisoners' labor.

[Dan Schiavetta]

Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319 (decided December 6, 1937): Fifth Amendment's prohibition of double jeopardy did not apply to the states (upholding Connecticut statute allowing prosecution to appeal a lesser-charge conviction so as to get retrial on more serious charge) (abrogated by Benton v. Maryland, 1969)

Salman v. United States, 580 U.S. 39 (decided December 6, 2016): in prosecution under §10-b of Securities Exchange Act of 1934, jury could infer that source of information (here, as to potential mergers/acquisitions) received a personal benefit from the tip (this is necessary for conviction under §10-b) because he was brother-in-law of defendant (who made about $1.5 million trading on the information) even though source did not make any $ himself

Reich v. Collins, 513 U.S. 106 (decided December 6, 1994): Georgia Supreme Court can't retroactively construe its statute allowing refund of illegally collected taxes so as to avoid refunding a tax on federal retirement benefits which had been declared unconstitutional (by Davis v. Michigan Dept. of Treasury, 1989)

[Frank Drackman]

Great Trivia question, which 3 states were the last to have legal Slavery? Spoiler alert, none were in the Confederacy.

[Mr. Bumble]

Are you counting marriage laws, because we all know traditional marriage is a form of slavery?

[Frank Drackman]

Hey Ohhhhhhh............. Take my Wife, Please!!! I take her everywhere but she keeps finding her way back!

[Martinned]

Missouri, Kentucky, and Delaware. That hardly seems surprising, given the legal logic of the Emancipation Proclamation.

[Dan Schiavetta]

One wonders how those last few slaves were treated. Both master and slave knew freedom would come any day.

Master: Pitch that hay!
Slave: (yawn) Maybe.

[Frank Drackman]

More like,
Slave: Where my hut at?
Master: You mean my hut? now get off my property!!!

[Martinned]

In 1863 the Netherlands abolished slavery in its colonies, but required the slaves to keep working for another 10 years. That's much worse.

[Nige]

The masters knew that they'd be compensated for their losses. The slaves not so much.

[Bob from Ohio]

"Missouri"

Fake news. It was New Jersey.