The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Also on Religious Freedom and Abortion
From Judge Frank Easterbrook's opinion Monday in Doe v. Rokita, joined by Judge Michael Brennan and Michael Scudder:
Indiana requires abortion providers to dispose of fetal remains by either burial or cremation. This mandate applies only to providers; women may choose to take custody of the remains and dispose of them as they please. The Supreme Court sustained this regimen against a contention that it violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Box v. Planned Parenthood of Indiana and Kentucky, Inc. (2019). Nonetheless, in this suit the district court held that it violates the First Amendment (applied to the states by the Fourteenth) and enjoined its operation….
Statutes that require people to disobey sincerely held religious beliefs can pose difficult analytical challenges. See, e.g., Fulton v. Philadelphia (2021). But Indiana does not require any woman who has obtained an abortion to violate any belief, religious or secular. The cremate-or-bury directive applies only to hospitals and clinics.
What's more, neither of the two plaintiffs who has had an abortion contends that a third party's cremation or burial of fetal remains would cause her to violate any religious principle indirectly. What these two plaintiffs contend is that cremation or burial implies a view—the personhood of an unborn fetus—that they do not hold. They maintain that only human beings are cremated or buried. This is questionable. Dogs, cats, and other pets may be cremated or buried, sometimes as a result of legal requirements not to put animals' bodies in the garbage. Indiana's statute about fetal remains therefore need not imply anything about the appropriate characterization of a fetus. At all events, a moral objection to one potential implication of the way medical providers handle fetal remains is some distance from a contention that the state compels any woman to violate her own religious tenets.
If the statute reflects anyone's view about fetal personhood, it is the view of the State of Indiana. Yet units of government are entitled to have, express, and act on, their own views about contestable subjects. See also Bowen v. Roy (1986) (private party's religious objection to Social Security numbers does not require the government to change its record-keeping system). Whether or not the Supreme Court continues to adhere to Employment Division v. Smith (1990), which holds that laws neutral with respect to religion may be enforced despite their effects on religious exercise, there is no problem with application of a law that leaves people free to put their own religious beliefs into practice. Nor does Indiana require any woman to speak or engage in expressive conduct.
The issues here are of course not the same as in Friday's Indiana state court decision that Indiana RFRA provides religious exemptions from the state's abortion ban, but I thought I'd pass along this decision alongside the other one.
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A while back a dentist told me that, post-AIDS, he was no longer allowed to give patients their extracted teeth. Instead, he had to pay for them to be disposed of as biohazards.
Why wouldn't a fetus come under the same rules -- yes, bodies are considered biohazards (and sometimes are, depending on what the person died from) and the funeral director is required to address/abate this.
I can't see releasing feti to their mothers for this reason.
The plural of fetus is "fetuses" in English and "fetus" (perhaps with a macron over the "u") in Latin. "Feti" isn't a word.
That's because you don't speak Dr. Ed 2.
That's Mr Ed, si vou plait.
Indeed it is fetuses.
and the word for "Female Aviator" is "Aviatrix" but you rarely hear it, probably because it sounds too similar to "Dominatrix"
As always, Dr Ed. comes up with some anecdote based on what some unnamed person allegedly told him, which of course is always nonsensical, and as always completely wrong.
https://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/infectioncontrol/faqs/extracted-teeth.html
Alas, David gives the too simplistic answer.
A better summary is here of what really happens.
"The dental board in Texas had to research my question and then get back to me. When they did, they told me that as long as the tooth was sterile, it could be given back to the patient. I then clarified whether the tooth had to be sterile or just cleaned off, since sterilization would be time-consuming. They then told me that as long as I cleaned it off well, it would be fine to give it back to the patient"
"When I called the state dental board of New York, the man I spoke with told me that I could only give baby teeth back to patients but that it’s not allowed to give adult teeth back to patients. I then threw him a curveball and asked about an adult tooth that had a gold crown on it that the patient really wanted back. He relented and said it would be fine as long as it was clean. When I asked him if New York had any written rules regarding this sort of situation, he said there were none."
https://www.oralanswers.com/can-you-keep-extracted-teeth/
What does this all ACTUALLY mean? OSHA has a number of biohazard regulations that include that extracted teeth need to be treated as a biohazard. While there are exceptions in the law for properly sterilized teeth, it's a risk that dentists are likely not happy about taking.
Dentists are likely afraid of the lawsuit that would come from an extracted tooth being given to someone (ie, the patient's caretaker), which then would proceed to infect the person. Or the potential for some sort of lawsuit, as a result, when it was clearly marked that the extracted teeth were regulated as biohazardous waste.
So you took the time to show Dr. Ed was, as usual, full of shit, and then somehow conclude he was right due to some ‘likely’ speculation that does not comport with what he said about AIDS and 'no longer allowed?'
You’re weird.
In fairness, Dr. Ed didn't say 'OSHA policy is...', he said 'a dentist told me...'.
And I can totally see some dentist saying that. I've lost track of how many times someone in a doctor's office says 'we can't because of HIPAA' when whatever it is has nothing to do with HIPAA, etc, etc, etc. Gun stores are another example - lots of incorrect advice there. Lots of businesses have only a vague idea of what the law actually says, but will opine with authority.
In fact, in a statistical sense, they are the normies, and the people who do careful research are the weird ones 🙂
"Regulations don't let us do that." is a pretty stock excuse for refusing to do something for the customer that's even a little out of the ordinary.
They should just say 'You can't MAKE me serve you, that would be slavery!'
and then somehow conclude he was right due to some ‘likely’ speculation that does not comport with what he said about AIDS and ‘no longer allowed?’
What post did you read that this was an appropriate response to? Not AL certainly.
Generic knee-jerk Sarcastr0 response after not bothering to read what he's responding to?
You don't think AL concluded Ed was right?
When I had my wisdom teeth removed (around 2009 I think) I got the pieces back in a small box.
I take the stance that once I have given a gift or declined an interest in something (like taking pennies in change) it is no longer any of my business or concern what anyone else does that thing. If I’ve given someone a pie for Christmas, it is none of my business if they dump it in the garbage, feed it to the pigs, give it to someone else, or eat it themselves. It’s sort of like that “first sale” (? IANAL) doctrine that once a publisher has sold a book, they lose control of it.
She’s a hypocrite. If it means nothing to her, then what it means to anyone else is literally of no concern to her. Her expressing concern means it is of concern to her, and she ought to take responsibility for that concern by taking the aborted fetus and dumping it in the garbage.
They are just trying to nip away at abortion bans, in the exact same way anti-abortion folks attempted to nip away at the constitutional right to abortion. The individual cases were often just as silly as this one.
where in the Constitution are abortion clinics on every street corner directly mandated or implied? Did Ben Franklin write it on the back in invisible ink?
it's in the "Penumbra"
Why do you click the reply button and then type something that has absolutely nothing to do with what I wrote?
You wrote "constitutional right to abortion" and he responded with a poorly posited "if it was Constitutional" question. What part of that do you think isn't directly responding to what you wrote?
If you weren't question begging to begin with...
With volcano virgins, there's no need to worry about burying the body, that's already taken care of.
I dunno. Did you never see that documentary, "Joe and the Volcano"?
How do IVF clinics dispose of unwanted embryos in Indiana??
like they do in San Fran-Sissy-Co, put them in the "Unwanted Embryos" bin, must be "Green"!!
A typical advocate of fetal/embryonic personhood will squirm like a worm on a hot brick, and will at all costs avoid any responsive answer, when asked whether in vitro fertilization -- which produces multiple embryos which will never be implanted -- should be outlawed. Could that be because IVF consumers most often are married hetero couples with enough disposable income to afford the procedure (and accordingly likely to vote Republican)?
A large human fetus might be quite a valuable thing, actually. One not-very-well-known thing about cell culture is: most mammalian cells require that their growth-media be supplemented by the serum (blood minus the cells) of a mammalian fetus. Usually, for hybridoma work, fetal bovine serum is used. See, for instance, here:
https://www.thermofisher.com/us/en/home/life-science/cell-culture/mammalian-cell-culture/fbs.html
The cells generally don't have to be species-matched; we grow plenty of cell-lines derived from mouse in fetal bovine serum. But there might be some benefit to using fetal human serum, especially if the cultured cells were derived from a human line. I've never heard of anyone trying to culture cells in human fetal serum, but there might be some unexpected benefit to the cultures! In any case, fetal bovine serum sells for around a thousand dollars per liter and it would be surprising if fetal human serum couldn't be used instead of bovine. Of course that price includes screening and testing and sterilizing the stuff, you'd probably only be able to sell your fetus' serum for a fraction of the $1K/L, but even so, a second-trimester abortus might possibly contain enough serum to significantly offset the cost of getting the abortion.
Get tokin’ on that peyote in Indiana, boys!
Or whatever the hell you do with peyote to induce spiritual experiences.
Also: Reason editor is still stripping html like blockquote on re-edits.
Chew it so it absorbs sub-lingual like, hmmm, what’s a referant my fatass fellow Americans would know…like nitro glycerin when having a heart attack?
Proabortioners are mad some third party doesn't treat human remains as trash to the degree that they want? Wow, sounds like a totally mentally stable movement.
on 3rd year OB/GYN rotation certain Attendings/Residents forbid telling patients that you were listening for the fetal heartbeat, "they might think there was a baby in there!" Didn't take long to decide OB/GYN wasn't my bag (baby!) constant dealing with nasty snatches, and the constant sound of those Fetal Monitors made me think I was on the crew in "Das Boot"
Laws requiring that fetal material be buried are cruel. Texas’ law, subsequently invalidated by a court ruling, required it not only for material from abortions but for the remains of miscarriage as well.
There’s a practical problem with these things - the clean up after one of these is remarkably similar to vacuuming out the womb, so discerning what among the material was the tiny fetus is not really doable. After our first miscarriage the doctor came out and in an effort to cheer me up told me that he didn’t see a fetus come out, which was ridiculous because earlier in the pregnancy we saw the heartbeat and the day before they had looked at it on a sonogram to insure that it had died.
My wife and I have four healthy children, but we also suffered through two miscarriages. I can’t describe to you how awful that experience is. I will always detest Gregg Abbott and Dan Patrick for blithely imposing that requirement on people who are suffering from the grief and shock of a miscarriage just to virtue signal how really, really opposed to abortion they are. Fuck them and any group of legislators who pass this shit. And the governors who sign off.
Not to disparage you or your feelings, how should (and how is) "medical waste", for want of a better term, disposed of now in most places?
Like John Wayne Bobbit's penis, thrown away like a 1/2 eaten cheeseburger
Where does the obligation on the parents kick in? Did the (now-vacated) state law require them to coordinate the burial?
Yes. On the first one I actually thought about that. The first night I was trying to sort through it all and my parents called and I asked them if they knew if I had any obligation to do something. Or if I should, because we saw it as our child that was gone. They said they didn't think so, and the next day the doctor told me that he didn't even see any baby so that was that (even though he was obviously mistaken).
The second time it never came up. But I can't imagine even trying to arrange something in that circumstance. It's an unusual situation that is rarely discussed and there's no time - when you find out the baby has died it becomes a health hazard and has to come out right now. Both D&Cs were done the morning after the discovery - no time to think, much less arrange.
When they passed the law, I don't even think they thought about stuff like that. They just tried to make life more difficult for abortionists.
"when you find out the baby has died it becomes a health hazard and has to come out right now"
That doesn't mean that it has to also be buried "right now" -- we have things called "morgues" and the technology to delay the time until the funeral or cremation.
And the hospital's social worker -- they all have one -- ought to be helping with all of this.
You aren’t listening Ed. You’re not going to take a glob of post pregnancy stuff and stick it in a morgue. There’s no intact body. Nobody is going to keep it anywhere.
Your lengthy response literally didn't answer the question, except to add more weight to the idea that you didn't have any additional burden.
AmosArch — The law is an arbitrary attempt to impose an additional burden of expense on abortion providers directly, and on clients who receive abortions indirectly. It also is an attempted cruelty, unreflectively to impose an imputation of immorality or personal failure on women who are already distraught after miscarriage of a wanted child. It is a monstrous law of the kind which results when zealots get power to do as they please.
Well, I'd have to say you're largely right on the objective question, even if I'd disagree with your moral evaluation of them.
The law IS an attempt to impose extra costs on abortion providers, and thus on the women procuring them. Not so different from a lot of gun laws in that regard, save for the glaring absence of any abortion related analog to the 2nd amendment.
And there may be an effort here to impute depraved indifference to women who have their babies killed and want them tossed into the trash. Not necessarily an inaccurate imputation, mind you.
As to the women who've suffered miscarriages, they're usually quite distraught, unlike women who set out to get abortions, and probably would not be additionally upset at their dead baby being treated like... a dead baby.
There are people who are the mirror image of you, who were outraged that the remains of their embryos were not treated the same as a live born child who died. They are the reason for some of the laws giving higher status than “blob of cells” to miscarriages and stillbirths. Formally, it’s a stillbirth after 20 weeks, more or less, when the average fetus might survive outside the womb. I think my state gives you a participation trophy in the form of a certificate of stillbirth without requiring any disposal rituals.
"There’s a practical problem with these things – the clean up after one of these is remarkably similar to vacuuming out the womb, so discerning what among the material was the tiny fetus is not really doable."
I hate to tell you this, but what do you think the clean up after a really bad auto wreck is? Or an airplane crash (which we somehow haven't had recently).
It isn't like it is going to be an open casket funeral...
Fuck off Ed. You’re talking about something you just don’t understand. Makes you a perfect candidate for governor of Texas.
Bevis,
I recommend that you mute Mr Ed. I disappeared for a year (praise the Lord) but he has returned making no more sense than he did before.
Do yourself a favor and press the "Mute" button.
Not sure how many commenters I have muted. Probably still in single digits.
When I did it, I thought I acted impulsively in each case—just fed up beyond endurance with repeated offensive stupidities. But experience has shown there may have been something systematic going on that I was unaware of.
Now the muted comments typically show up in uninterrupted stacks, one after another, sometimes eight or ten deep. I am not even going to try to understand why that happens, but I speculate it may mean lots of other folks have muted the same idiots, so they are left talking only to each other. If so, it would suggest the mute function really is a wise addition which can notably improve the quality of discourse.
To take it a step further, if my speculation is correct, does that call into question the nostrum that more speech is always better? Or at least call into question whether intelligent people really believe it?
What are you talking about? Your post doesn’t make any sense. What additional thing do you have to do because of fetal burial laws that you wouldn’t have to do without them thats so traumatic? And does that even apply to Indiana which I can’t see any additional obligation on the mother?
If the remains are just trash to you why is it cruel what the state does with them? How does the concept of cruel even come into something that is considered by your side’s argument to be just waste? Its like complaining what happens to your Big Mac wrapper after you throw it in the trash.
*If Texas imposes some additional burden beyond indiana law then they can reform it to be the same and problem solved.
Wait, you're against a third party treating human remains respectfully, but you're not opposed to those same remains being sold to a lab and used for experimentation and "processing" into products for medical treatment? That's sick.
If you're talking to me, I didn't say that at all. Because, sure, I'd be swell with somebody processing my dead kid. The fact that you could conjure up with something like that out of thin air shows who is sick.
It's pretty obvious he was taking about the case, since the petitioners (unlike yourself) had no obligation to take care of it themselves.
As an organ donor and hopefully soon a blood donor again, no, I don't have a problem with that.
For that matter, if after my death you could grind up my brain and somehow make a medicine better? Then hot-damn, that's awesome! Why would I be against that?
Under the traditional belief/conduct distinction, government regulationof conduct never implicates the Establishment Clause, which is concerned only with beliefs. And it implicates the Free Exercise Clause only if ones religion prohibits legally required conduct or requires legally prohibitted conduct.
So there would be no need to discuss pet cemetaries etc. It would be clear as a matter of law that only conduct, not belief, is implicated.
Still have a 38 slug I cut out of a "Gang Banger" (in 1986 we just called them Criminals) nothing heroic, was just following up from his Ex-lap/splenectomy/liver resection/multiple enterotomies, colostomy, from the other 38 slugs he'd been shot with, had one remaining in the SQ tissue of his Upper arm, realized too late it might be considered "Evidence" so didn't document it, like they say, if it's not documented it didn't happen.
Frank
Weren't the entry wounds of all of these slugs, including the one you removed from his upper arm, already documented by the ER upon his first arrival?
Magic bullet.
Theoretically, if you could read a harried surgical resident/med students chicken scratch (check out the JFK autopsy sometime, and this was the POTUS at the "Flagship" of Navy Medicine, looks like my 8th grade Science Project (and I'm a lefty, so I'm supposed to have bad handwriting) In the ER though you would often have Officer (un) Friendly to collect any "evidence"...
Frank
Don't they do full body X-rays in a trauma case like this? To look for broken bones and such, although a bullet would show up, wouldn't it? Or am I giving medicine more credit than it deserves?
As to the JFK autopsy -- it's the reason why I say it is a good thing that abortion clinics that only conduct a few abortions a month be closed.
How many autopsies had those MDs done in the past month?
How about the past year? Past decade?
They probably brought in the Chief of This and the Chief of That -- men who hadn't actually done an actual autopsy in some time, and they f***ed up the simple stuff because they were rusty.
Rusty and under extreme stress because of who it was. If they'd instead asked the guy who'd worked the night shift to "do one more" and not told him who it was, it likely would have been done right.
Standard Trauma X-rays are C-spine/Chest/Abdomen/Pelvis, then Extremities if suspected fractures/dislocations, Head CT if indicated. Or the "Pan-Man-Scan" as the kids today call it, skipping plain X-rays alltogether.
Think you've been watching too much "Law & Order" ("Clanging Doors Sound Effect") with the plethora of GSW's in today's (and yesterdays, although admittedly there were alot more .22/25acp wounds, and hence, survivors walking around with lead in them) ER's no way you can worry about every round...
Pathologist who did JFK's Postmortem wasn't a Forensic Pathologist, didn't need to be, only confusion was the anterior neck wound, which was easily explained after a phone call to Dr. Perry in Dallas (imagine, one doctor calling another, on the phone!!) Rear head wound was beveled, indicating shot from the rear, Exit wound was right front, and the trajectory from JFK's back/neck to Connally's chest is right on the money, the "Magic" bullet was what you'd expect from a military FMJ with it's velocity lowered by going through 2 targets, and ballistics matched it to Oswald's rifle.
That being said, I enjoy Oliver Stone's "JFK" for the entertainment value.
Frank
American courts engage in many ceremonies taken from religious practices. Their buildings often resemble temples. Their rooms are lined woth images of venerated ancestors. Judges sit at a dias in mimicry of a pulpit. The list goes on. If plaintiff’s subjective opinions about the religous beliefs implied by state conduct is permitted to be relevant, or if coincidence with the belief of a religion about right behavior were permitted to be relevant, virtually no element of current court architecture, decorum, or practice would be allowed to stand.
I can't help but think they'd have had a better religious liberty claim if they'd said that their religion required they throw the remains into the fiery maw of Baal. (They wouldn't have to explain that was the burn barrel in their backyard.)
Emphisis on "they"; A religious obligation that somebody else, not of your religion, do something? Not very strong.
Even an atheist does not put his dead Mom's body at the curb for the trash folks. She is utterly as if she never existed but he won't allow the immorality that his mind tends to.
We already have a more permissive regime than what you’re asking for. Abortions are allowed up till the fetus is very developed and increasingly afterward until birth and sometimes after birth given certain circumstances. So your argument doesn’t apply.
so when I invent my Time Machine, if I abort MLK jr at the Zygote stage you're cool with that? Thanks Bull Conner !!(D, Alabama)
I know I've challenged you on this before, but it still bugs me that you aren't using these terms properly. "Zygote", "fetus" and "born" aren't persons or things, they're stages of development. In fact, they're stages of development of the exact same thing. It's nonsensical to speak about them as if they can be compared to one another independently.
Let's add the other stages of development to illustrate this point: after the stage of being born comes the stages of infant, toddler, child, teen, adult, middle-aged, and elderly. Would you want to talk about the propriety of considering a "teen" as enslaved but not a "middle-aged" person, on the basis that they are "very different"? Of course not, that would be ludicrous.
The same thing applies with ALL the stages. Living things with a life-cycle don't exhibit all their properties at once, but over time. A latent property is no less real than when it is being exhibited. The difference is just one of expression, not of kind.
At best, what you could argue is that "the latent attributes of a human being in its zygote and fetal developmental stages are so undeveloped compared to the adult stage" that we don't have to worry about whether they might be enslaved or not.
I doubt you'd want to make that argument (for other reasons), but at the very least you'd be using your terms consistently, and that would be an improvement, IMHO.
Queen -- for what it is worth, go look at some of the slaveowner defenses of slavery. They made the exact same distinctions you are, but theirs were on the basis of race.
If they were wrong (and they were) then you are as well.
Babies delivered by caesarean haven't always and aren't universally considered to be "born:" Saint Raymond Nonnatus was nicknamed "Nonnatus" for that reason.
So you're cool with aborting Martin Luther King Jr-Zygote? I'm not, and I'm the Race-ist????
Or, the argument is zygotes, embryos and fetuses aren't persons.
Is a caterpillar the same thing as a butterfly? An acorn the same thing as an oak tree?
I'm not seeing how denying personhood based on race is wrong implies denying personhood based on being born or not is also wrong.
Read it. It is chillingly similar.
How so?