The Volokh Conspiracy
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A First Amendment for Everyone
What the Supreme Court should do in 303 Creative v. Elenis, Monday's case involving a graphic designer who does not want to create same-sex wedding websites.
Over the past century the First Amendment's protection of "the freedom of speech" has been interpreted to shield the reprehensible — White Supremacists and homophobes—as well as the admirable — the Black Civil Rights movement and the gay-rights cause. This jurisprudence reflects an American commitment to its own brand of classical liberalism in matters of conscience and expression.
On Monday, that commitment will be tested against another important one — equality under law — when the Supreme Court hears oral argument in 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis. Lorie Smith, a graphic designer who holds traditional religious views about marriage, wants to create custom websites only for weddings uniting one man and one woman.
But Colorado's public-accommodations law (like those in 28 other states) prohibits businesses from discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation in the sale of goods and services to the general public. While Smith says she is happy to serve gay customers in other ways, she does not want to send a message of approval of same-sex marriages.
The Nation's tradition of pluralism under the First Amendment is best understood to forbid Colorado to make Lorie Smith create speech celebrating same-sex marriages. Graphic designers of wedding websites have a limited First Amendment right to refuse to sell such expressive services. Importantly, and poignantly, the very same tradition of expressive pluralism allowed gay-marriage advocates to transform public attitudes about same-sex marriage itself. For the sake of all, that tradition should be preserved in 303 Creative.
Facing the credible threat of expensive and time-consuming investigations by the state civil rights commission, Smith preemptively sued Colorado in what is known as a "pre-enforcement" action, claiming a violation of her free-speech rights. She lost in the lower courts. (Disclosure: Along with Eugene and others, I filed an amicus brief supporting Smith.)
The case comes down to two main questions. First, is the creation of custom wedding websites for sale in the public marketplace the designer's "speech"? Second, if it is speech, does the designer have a First Amendment right to refuse such expressive services for same-sex weddings despite a state law compelling her to do so?
I.
The answer to the first question is surprisingly straightforward. The freedom of speech involves more than talking. It includes writing, picketing, dancing, and saluting flags. Government generally may not compel a person to speak against her will. And free speech must also include the freedom not to create speech.
In the commercial marketplace, as elsewhere, courts must draw lines between expression and non-expression. Speech protection should be extended only where the good or service involves an inherently expressive medium (e.g., the speaker's own original words or symbols) or a medium that has historically or traditionally been recognized in the law as expressive (e.g., parades).
Most business services and goods cannot plausibly be regarded as expressive. Hotel owners, limousine drivers, and tailors are not "speaking" when offering their professional services, even if they imbue these activities with great personal meaning.
Not even all website design services are expressive. If Lorie Smith were just hosting customer-generated content on her online platform, or simply allowing customers to select off-the-rack design templates involving certain colors and fonts, her offerings in the wedding-website marketplace would be mainly her customers' expression — not her own. Similarly, if Smith were only offering an online platform to regurgitate prosaic details, like the time and place of the ceremony, such "speech" would not earn First Amendment protection. The Supreme Court has held that merely sending scheduling emails or announcing meeting locations is not constitutionally shielded expression.
The details matter. Borderline cases involving the multi-billion dollar wedding-industrial complex are certainly imaginable. For example, elaborate custom wedding cakes adorned with specific symbols and pastry-gun writing are perhaps a close call. The Supreme Court confronted a similar wedding cake case in 2018 in Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Comm'n, but sidestepped the free-speech issue by holding that the baker had been unconstitutionally targeted for unfavorable treatment because of his religious views. (Since Masterpiece Cakeshop, Justices Kavanugh and Barrett have been added to the Court. Their views on the application of free-speech principles to public accommodations laws in the marketplace are unknown.)
But Smith's case is not on the borderline of speech. She proposes actively to create each individual website. Even the Colorado Civil Rights Commission conceded that Smith's graphic and website designs are expressive in nature, as they contain images, words, symbols, and other modes of expression that are used to communicate a particular message of celebration. The appeals court, though it ultimately rejected Smith's constitutional claim, agreed that her bespoke wedding website designs are "pure speech."
Compelling Smith to promote the message that, in essence, same-sex marriages are authentic marriages and are as worthy of celebration and support as opposite-sex marriages is as much a speech compulsion as requiring her by law to proclaim "White Lives Matter" or "Jesus Saves."
II.
If Smith's designs are expressive, the question remains whether the state may nevertheless justify compelling her speech for customers wishing to promote same-sex weddings. In limited circumstances the Supreme Court has held that even fully protected speech may be regulated if the government can prove it has an overwhelming justification for the regulation and if such regulation intrudes on speech in a most limited way.
The state's objective is undoubtedly compelling: promoting equality in daily life for gay Americans. In Masterpiece Cakeshop, the Supreme Court cautioned that First Amendment objections by businesses must be limited lest they become broad licenses to discriminate. Conflicts should be resolved where possible "without subjecting gay persons to indignities when they seek goods and service in an open market."
Nevertheless, the Court upheld the right of Boston's annual Irish parade organizers to exclude a contingent that wanted to march behind a banner identifying themselves as gay. And it upheld the right of the Boy Scouts to expel an openly gay scoutmaster. Both cases involved state public accommodations laws. As in Smith's case, both involved compelled inclusion of gay-affirming messages the objectors did not wish to convey. And both doubtless insulted the persons excluded.
The constitutional answer remains somewhat unsettled in the commercial marketplace. Lower courts have ruled in favor of wedding calligraphers and videographers, but against a wedding photographer and a florist, who objected to providing goods for same-sex weddings.
Some of these may be difficult cases on the line between expression and non-expression, but in principle there's no reason why public-accommodations laws applied to the marketplace should enjoy a categorical immunity from First Amendment review. After all, it makes no difference whether speech is produced for profit to be sold to others or for principle simply to persuade them. Books, films, and newspapers are commercially sold but are no less protected. If creating custom wedding websites is speech (and almost everyone agrees it is) it does not matter whether the designer intends to sell the creations.
Colorado has also not demonstrated it is promoting equality in the least speech-intrusive way, as it might be able to do when a vendor has a monopoly on a product or service. The appeals court concluded that the speech compulsion was justified because Smith had a practical monopoly on her unique expressive services: the website designs could not be offered in exactly the same quality by one of the other numerous talented graphic and wedding website designers available easily online to same-sex couples. If the Supreme Court says nothing else about the case, it should squarely repudiate the bizarre conclusion that an artist's expressive skills must be provided because the artist has a monopoly on her own expression. Neither Colorado nor any of its supporting amici have defended that misbegotten theory.
III.
But the Supreme Court should do more. It should clarify that the First Amendment applies to expressive goods and services sold in the public square, offer guidance as to what does and does not count as "expressive," and send the case back to the lower courts with instructions that Colorado cannot enforce its public-accommodations law against Smith's proposed expression unless the state meets the burden of satisfying genuinely strict judicial scrutiny — not the watered-down version of the appeals court.
Many will ask, what about racial discrimination? After all, even the most venomous racist speech is protected. But the distinctive features of racist denials of service (including region-wide prevalence) and the special horrors of racism (including slavery and Jim Crow) justified wholesale eradication of these practices from the marketplace. They have no analogue in American history. American anti-discrimination law has long treated such discriminatory practices as sui generis, tolerating relatively few exceptions.
Free speech allowed gay America to flourish. Long before the right to marry was recognized, in a time when even their private sexual acts were criminalized, gay men and lesbians used the space provided by the First Amendment to organize politically and to persuade Americans to support their liberty and equality. If tolerance means anything, it means that marriage traditionalists like Smith may espouse their views (and refuse to espouse contrary views) in the public marketplace.
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I continue to think this is more of a 13th than 1st amendment issue: The government literally telling you that you MUST serve this person, or else.
It gets shoe horned into the 1st amendment because the courts don't take the 13th seriously where the government itself is the slaver.
That's why I think it's justified to force service in a life or death situation (like the rural hotel when a person is trying to get out of a storm). It's akin to the "public necessity" defense, in a way.
But otherwise, public accommodation laws are literally slavery.
Literally slavery? Congratulations on being the only person in the world not to understand what the words "slavery" and "literal" mean.
I understand what they mean, and stand by what I said.
Even though you're making a fool of yourself?
Not really a serious analysis Brett.
When someone is chopping cotton with an overseer they can't decide they want to get out of cotton chopping and find another line of work.
However Smith is free to close her business, or change it's services so she no longer create websites.
However I do agree that Website design is expressive work, and she should not be required to create on demand. And I don't think anyone can convincingly claim cake decorating, or website design are not creative endeavors.
I kind of wonder what would happen if her creative juices led her to create a tribute to MySpace as a gay wedding website.
When does one chop cotton? One historically picked the cotton bolls from the plant to harvest them, thus giving the phrase "cotton picking" (colloquially an adjective meaning of little value).
“Chopping cotton in common terms is simply taking a hoe, which has a wooden handle and has a blade-type end that is always kept sharp so cotton can be “weeded” as well as thinned by the farming families in order to have several bales of cotton for the fall.”
Chopping cotton is a lot more arduous than picking cotton.
Apparently we’re supposed to pass another constitutional amendment with similar language to the 13th, but with the words "and we really mean it" added.
Courts would probably just pretend the new amendment also doesn’t exist though.
What if a heterosexual couple (say father/mother) wanted Smith to create a website for a gay son's wedding & she declined, again due to content? This highlights the fact that the discrimination is against content, not the customer.
JKillion comment - "What if a heterosexual couple (say father/mother) wanted Smith to create a website for a gay son’s wedding & she declined, again due to content? This highlights the fact that the discrimination is against content, not the customer."
Concur -Its an important point of distinction - Its discrimination against content, or discrimination against behavior, Not discrimination due to sex or sexual orientation.
Let's try this in other contexts.
What if a white couple (say father/mother) wanted to buy lunch for their Black adopted son, and the diner declined, due to who would eat it?
Do you think that level of obfuscation would get them a pass in court?
She declined because of the sexual orientation of the son. It's discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
That's an argument against all non-discrimination in public accommodation law, and not even this SCOTUS is willing to cross that bridge.
"Second, if it is speech, does the designer have a First Amendment right to refuse such expressive services for same-sex weddings despite a state law compelling her to do so?"
I would think the actual question is does the state have the right to pass such a law?
Let's take the converse here -- let's say that two of the Westboro Baptist Church folk wanted to get married and wanted her to make a "God Hates Fags" wedding webpage (or video or cake). She shouldn't be able to refuse?
Or a couple members of the Klan wanted to get married -- in full Klan regalia, with burning crosses in the background and all the rest. Could she refuse? Could she refuse if she were Black or Jewish?
What if they wanted to have a Satanic wedding and she believed that merely being present at such an event put her immortal soul in jeopardy (as some Christians believe)?
Henry Ford was famous for saying that you could buy a Ford in any color you desired, as long as it was black. Even today, cars are only sold in certain colors -- I could have an auto body shop paint pink polka dots on my car, but I can't demand that Ford sell me one with them already on it (unless they were offering that as an option).
Which goes to another point here -- could someone demand that she make a video of their high school graduation or church confirmation? No, that's not the product that she offers.
Let me try this a different way -- say there was a Jewish printer. Could the local Neo-Nazi outfit require him to print their hate literature? Or could he refuse?
If it's just printing, I suspect they'd have to print the literature.
If the printer was tasked with designing the flyers, I suspect he could refuse.
They would be able to refuse, printers are not common carriers or public utilities, and there is no public accommodations laws, and least in most states for political viewpoints.
The Phelps family attribute their bigotry to religious beliefs, though. They're asking for equal messaging for their religious beliefs, and religion or sect is protected by a lot of antidiscrimination laws.
Same thing with the Neo Nazis, who purport to be Christians. (They claim to only be "illuminating" crosses, not burning them -- and that it is a Christian symbol.)
I'm not saying that they are, only that I don't get to decide the moral validity of the religious values of others. (Now as to the Lord doing it, that's another issue....)
Assuming further he customizes literature, he can refuse because he isn’t discriminating on the basis of a protected classification.
I've often wondered why it is always Progressives demanding everyone else do their bidding. Maybe the fastest way to stop this is find a woke florist or baker and make those demands of them. But for some reason, normal people have better things to do than harass the people they don't like. Listen to the wokies, and Christian fundamentalists are the worst people in the world for telling everybody else how to live. Maybe they need to make the wokies' fantasies come true.
"Maybe they need to make the wokies’ fantasies come true."
Basically. If you can harass and bankrupt anyone with wrongthink then you can influence others into hiding. You then change the public discourse by eliminating dissenting views. It's similar to the hecklers veto. Once dissenting views are silenced or marginalized then the bulk of the population starts trending towards the view that is promoted.
What amazes me about the gay movement is how quickly it went from wanting to be left alone to not letting anyone else alone -- from the "love that can not speak its name" to the "love that can not shut its mouth."
People forget that the Goodridge (MA gay marriage) decision was so controversial that Margaret Marshall included a 6 month stay in hopes that the legislature would bail her out by passing a gay marriage law (which it didn't).
I blame Mitt Romney who was Governor at the time -- he should have just declared a moratorium on marriage and stated that in six months, the Commonwealth would stop issuing marriage certificates (to anyone). With the exception of the outer Cape, there is no part of Massachusetts that is more than 30 minutes away from another state -- there is NH, VT, NY, CT, & RI, and as NH is only 17 miles wide, ME as well.
That would have been the equitable solution.
It's surprising how applicable Alinsky's Rules are to both progressive "radicals" and the resistance to same. If "normal" people would simply apply the playbook ("Rule 4" here) as written by Saul A. (much as you suggest), I don't know if they'd win that conflict, but it would be quite fun to watch.
But, as you say, we "normies" typically have better things to do....
That last sentence applies to almost all activism that wants the government to do something, anything. The activists have too much time on their hands and get bored. Why work when they can accomplish so much more by making the government do something?
It also explains why the woke gender fluidentity students and teachers are the activists, not the STEMmies. One has things to do, the other has things to make the government make others do.
Just wait till we have bridges built by people promoted because of their gender fluidity, not their competence. Just wait till you have to go in for surgery with a surgeon who was credentialed because of their gender fluidity, not their competence. What could go wrong?
It already IS happening, and the consequences are what you suggest....
To me, IANAL, this comes down to government replacing mandatory slavery with mandatory segregation with mandatory integration, aka public accommodation, affirmative action, and basically government knows best.
The proper solution is freedom of association. Everything I have heard about the 1895 Plessy decision is that the railroad did not want segregated cars, nor did its passengers. It cost more, it require more and longer trains, and it was a bad choice for everyone except a few bigots who expected everyone else to pay the expenses.
I'm also convinced that the mandated integration of affirmative action and public accommodation trashed race relations, and the continued emphasis on race has just made it worse. David Bernstein's book Classified showed how silly the racial classes are, and the recent Supreme Court cases emphasize it.
No, I don't expect government to butt out. Yes, I do expect society will eventually adapt and get over this "post racial" racism. Society would have adapted by now if either Plessey or the 1960s mandatory integration had been otherwise.
I'd much rather have the bigots out in the open with their NO IRISH NO BLACKS NO DOGS signs. Most people would boycott them and they'd have to be the true believers that everyone else shuns. Public accommodation just pushed them underground, like the war on drugs or every other contraband policy.
The other thing is that cases like _Heart of Atlanta_ were based upon the lack of alternatives -- that there weren't other Black-friendly motels down the street, let along Black-owned ones.
That's not true here -- there are a LOT of gays in the wedding business, and outside the political "gay agenda" being advanced here, I'm sure they'd love to have the business. I mean like dress designers -- how many men in that industry *aren't* gay???
No, they weren't.
We have examples of those willing to discriminate. We have examples of how Americans are sorting regionally. We have a history of discrimination being regionally widespread and both de facto and de jure.
So it is quite naive to argue let’s try getting rid of civil rights laws and it should all be fine.
Fine for you and I maybe,
I guess you just don't understand the difference between forbidden and required.
You also have a real sorry opinion of humanity. People help each other far more than you statists will ever admit, because that would spell the end of 99% of government.
We have seen a number of areas where something has gone from forbidden to required. Or more precisely, from behavior that the courts required state law to make illegal to having that same behavior now treated as being protected to the full extent of the law with practitioners allowed to raise equal protection claims if they are in any way hindered.
Think of it this way, society wants to make tobacco products illegal but wants to make cannabis products protected.
De facto discrimination. Look it up.
I’m an optimist and a humanist, I also know my history.
WTF?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I always thought "equality under the law" had to do with how one is treated by the government. 303 Creative is definitely not the government, so this concept seems inapplicable here.
303 Creative is definitely not the government, so this concept seems inapplicable here.
303 is the entity being controlled by the law, not the entity doing any assertion of control.
Are you talking about, say, the owner of all those “no blacks allowed” back in the day? The government owned those? I didn’t know that.
“No blacks allowed” hotels.
Surely there is no constitutional principle which works differently with respect to black people than with respect to gay people.
Carpenter, as usual, uses the ranking:
1. Ideology
2. Personal belief
3. Precedent
4. What the constitution says
When he applies this ranking, black discrimination gets blocked either with ideology or with personal belief. Gay discrimination drops to #4, and has to compete with freedom of non-speech.
"Surely there is no constitutional principle which works differently with respect to black people than with respect to gay people."
Actually, there is. "Passism" -- the ability to pass as a member of the majority culture.
Without going to deeply into the weeds (and I've had to), the difference is that Blacks can't not appear not Black, while Gays can appear to be heterosexual and hence aren't subject to the same level or intensity of discrimination because they can "pass" while Blacks can't.
There is some truth here -- take hotel accommodations. The two lesbians can "pass" as sisters or cousins while the Black couple is going to appear exactly as what they are.
the difference is that Blacks can’t not appear not Black, while Gays can appear to be heterosexual and hence aren’t subject to the same level or intensity of discrimination because they can “pass” while Blacks can’t.
I can see how this might affect personal belief, "the way things ought to be", but I don't see it in the constitution.
If that's the case, then religion shouldn't be a protected class either.
Doesn't have to be, but both the constitution, and the RFRA have made it protected.
Have at repealing RFRA as a first step, and then then on to the 1st amendment.
No, the Constitution has not made religion a protected class with regard to public accommodations.
If that’s the case, then religion shouldn’t be a protected class either.
Well there is the fact that religious freedom is specifically protected by the constitution.
But in the "belief" zone, there is indeed a case to be made that "I just don't like gays" is an equally valid defense against forced speech as "my religion says I can't do that".
See above.
"Surely there is no constitutional principle which works differently with respect to black people…"
The principle that Dem judges can decide things based on their personal preferences and then draft an "explanation" that references the constitution to make it look judicial.
The principle that Dem judges can decide things based on their personal preferences and then draft an “explanation” that references the constitution to make it look judicial.
The left and the right do almost exactly the same thing.
The right tends to work harder at reverse engineering a constitutional analysis to match the results.
The left just says that the constitution means whatever they have the votes for it to say.
The left is more straightforward, and honest about such matters.
It’s really helpful for laws to be what the actual words say and mean rather than whatever Dem judges feel like saying on a given day.
Also it’s necessary for this democracy thing that some people have been pretending to believe in lately.
It’s really helpful for laws to be what the actual words say and mean rather than whatever Dem judges feel like saying on a given day.
The way things ought to be, eh?
The right does the same thing, they just describe it differently. cf Robert's ruling on Obamacare. Scalia's concurring opinion on Raich.
Two bad decisions.
Dems on the court were unanimous (as usual) together with Roberts. The other judges weren’t playing Roberts' and the Dems games that time.
Not agreeing with you is not the same as bad faith.
If only you could craft a counter-argument instead of just labeling people and content…
Well just this week the senate passed a bill related to gay marriage that says exactly what it means. And you and your political homies shit yourselves over that too.
You just don’t like gay people and aren’t willing to leave them alone and do things that don’t harm you.
You have no clue about me or whether I support some random senator.
What a bunch of garbage post.
We have a self proclaimed fanatical bigot wanting the right to discriminate in the marketplace based on prejudicial, hate filled attitudes. We have of course fought this battle before, with racists determined to use their so-called freedoms to discriminate against people of color, with 'devout' Christians determined to use their so called freedom to discriminate against Jew and with other bigotry and prejudice hiding behind religion.
A brief study of history will show that anti-black hatred and discrimination was rooted in the belief that God did not want the races to mix. Really, just read the court pleadings and decisions of the 1940's to 1960's.
No one is forced into commerce. But our rule of law, and basic decency say if you do enter commerce, you treat everyone equally.
But there is no doubt the Court will support bigotry so the decision is not in doubt. It's what Clarence and his cohorts do.
I don't agree, Sidney.
If I were a website designer I would not want to design a site for an evangelical group that wanted to proclaim that non-Christians were going to hell, or the like.
I do agree that there is the problem of allowing bigotry to find cover behind allegedly religious beliefs, and that the Establishment clause is being whittled down by the conservative majority on SCOTUS, but this particular case seems OK.
I'm glad you can see the distinction Sidney can't: there are obviously deeply held religious beliefs here, beliefs Smith believes will be compromised by designing a website specifically to celebrate a gay wedding.
Sidney believes those sincerely held religious beliefs are wrong and shouldn't be accommodated.
I don't think that's the right distinction. I think the distinction that matters here is between non-expressive and expressive conduct, in terms of when 1A comes into play.
From my perspective, the only problem here is people thinking they're entitled to force people to do things they don't want to, and the government backing them up on it.
WHY they don't want to take this work it on is utterly and completely irrelevant, because they have a right to refuse to do it, and what separates rights from privileges is just precisely that you DON'T have to provide somebody else with an acceptable excuse for exercising a right. I don't HAVE to like your reason for exercising a right for it to be your right.
The evil of slavery wasn't the failure to pay an adequate wage. It was that they took people's choices away from them.
One of the key developmental steps in childhood is grasping that other people ARE other people, entitled to make their OWN decisions. That other people's stuff is OTHER people's stuff, that other people's choices are OTHER people's choices.
A lot of people apparently never completely internalize that.
And so, having abandoned the principled libertarian stance that people get to make their own choices, in favor of a belief that people are only entitled to make choices we approve of, we have been marching towards to proverbial "All that is not forbidden is mandatory" dystopia, because no principled stopping point is in evidence.
Only recently it's become more of a sprint than a march.
So much of a sprint that this person didn't even wait to turn somone away before litigating. Do you reckon they were waiting for evil litigious gays to come round and bully her, but got bored when none appeared and just skipped that part?
No one is forced into commerce. But our rule of law, and basic decency say if you do enter commerce, you treat everyone equally.
Surely there’s a line somewhere. A professional singer can’t be compelled to perform any song specified by anyone willing to pay the fee, right? A free-lance writer can’t be compelled to write an essay suggesting pedophilia is benign?
You're an idiot. Does "treat everyone equally" mean treat people equally irrespective of ability to pay?
The writer who doesn't know the meaning of the words "slavery" and "literal" is calling someone else an idiot? That's pretty funny. Go read a dictionary before you make any more of a fool of yourself.
You're an idiot.
Come back and talk to the grownups when you finish fifth grade. Until then, no one cares what you say or how much of a fool you seem intent on proving you are.
Seems to me that the only bigot here is, well, you. You're trying to force people to do something they don't want to do. And you want to use the coercive power of government to force the issue.
"No one is forced into commerce" is just stupid. The right to earn a living is a fundamental human right.
" Seems to me that the only bigot here is, well, you. "
If you wish to contend that Lorie Smith is not a bigot, let's hear the argument.
Bigots have rights, but not the right to be known as anything other than deplorable bigots.
I don’t agree with the guy, but that’s not really bigotry you are describing.
Following up on Rossami's comment “No one is forced into commerce” is just stupid. The right to earn a living is a fundamental human right."
FWIW - Service businesses turn away business all the time for a variety of reasons, especially accountants and attorneys, lack of capacity, lack of expertise for the specific project, conflict of interest, potential high risk client, etc. While I havent turned anyone away for racial or sexual orientation reason, I would estimate that I turn away 10-12 projects a year.
As a side note, my industry requires 4 hours of ethics courses annually (out of 40 hours total per year). One of the topics is not accepting clients that are likely to be high maintenance or problem clients or with high litigation potential. There have been reports that the behaviour of gay couple that have sued the Phillips bakery fall into that category.
Preemptively refusing service service because you think someone will sue you for discrimination….is still discrimination.
So what if it is discrimination
A) Its legal to discriminate on that basis.
B) Most professional service organizations promote refusing service for those type clients.
Why would you think that form of discrimation is wrong - other than to make an argument with out any basis (or understanding of the subject matter).
I mean legally, you can’t say you weren’t discriminating just preemptively preventing a lawsuit about discrimination.
Seems like those organizations need better general counsels if that’s what they advise.
Like the ABA needs better council for their recommendation?
or the AICPA ?
Look, you can't (get away with, in some states) turn away customers on the basis that they appear to be 'gay'.
You CAN, in most states, turn away customers on the basis that they appear to be litigious, even if they happen to also look 'gay'.
Get the distinction? Joe is saying that the people who sued Philips were giving indications that they were there for... what it turns out they actually WERE there for: To buy a lawsuit!
Seems like turning away people because you think they'll sue you for turning them away is walking right into the supposed trap.
I’m a big fan of civil rights laws, but they are in tension with expressive association.
When creative expression is involved, that tension is especially high.
You can’t declare that this disassociation is bad and so doesn’t count. Consistency is important. If you want rights to exist, haters and bigots get rights too.
So one's Constitutional rights are determined by whether you believe their views are bigoted or not? What an utter absurdity.
Not absurd at all.
Whether something is a constitutional right or something outlawed by the state is something that very-much changes with the bigotries of the time.
From the personhood of Black people and the right of atheists to hold office to contraception, mixed-race marriages and sodomy, many things that today are Constitutional rights were once illegal, precisely because the bigotry of the people in power.
Heck, even talking about non-discrimination cases? None of the various florist, baker photograph-maker cases would have gotten as far as they did if they were about mixed-race marriages. And part of the reason these cases are tough ones for the SCOTUS is because, to them, the question is open-and-shut when it comes to other protected classes, and is only in question because it's about gay people. This highlights that their problem is not with non-discrimination law, but with non-discrimination law protecting gay people the same as it would others, aka, whether or not someone has a constitutional right to refuse gay customers in Colorado hinges not on the law (which would answer the same for gay people as Jewish people), but on the bigotry of the SCOTUS (which wants to answer different for gay people then Jewish people).
A more extensive study of history will show that anti-black hatred and discrimination was rooted in prejudice against the other, and that the belief that God did not want the races to mix was reverse-engineered to support that prejudice once it came under attack.
Bigots have rights, too. That includes bigots who wrap their bigotry in religion, pretending that superstition can improve bigotry or transform it into something other than bigotry.
Carry on, clingers.
Why do you think it's normal for a man to lie with another man?
Enlighten us, genius. Why isn't it?
There is a silver lining to right-wingers' embrace of bigots and bigotry.
It inclines educated, reasoning, successful Americans -- especially the younger ones -- to reject all or most of conservatives stale, ugly thinking.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your multifaceted bigotry, backwardness, belligerent ignorance, and superstition could carry anyone in modern, improving America, that is.
"Enlighten us, genius. Why isn’t it?"
OK.
The sex urge is a product of evolution and the need to reproduce so as to carry on the species. Anything outside of that which will lead to human pregnancy is counterproductive to the survival of the species and hence not "normal."
" Anything outside of that which will lead to human pregnancy is counterproductive to the survival of the species and hence not “normal.”"
Well, watching football games isn't making any babies either. 'Thou shalt not do things that don't result in pregnancy' seems like a tough commandment to sell.
Obligatory Monty Python.
So I’m not supposed to be napping or eating?
I think napping and eating would be OK, at least as long as they are strictly to prepare yourself for procreation.
Well, napping shows sloth which is not going to help attract a procreation buddy.
But procreation requires energy - excluding artificial insemination I suppose - so eating is probably a righteous behavior.
So a man and a woman past child-bearing age can no longer have sex just for love or fun? I don't think even the Catholic Church teaches that.
Anything outside of that which will lead to human pregnancy is counterproductive to the survival of the species
Aside from the other objections, why is it counterproductive?
That's an argument against masturbation and MILFs.
"If Lorie Smith were just hosting customer-generated content on her online platform, or simply allowing customers to select off-the-rack design templates involving certain colors and fonts, her offerings in the wedding-website marketplace would be mainly her customers' expression — not her own."
Eleventh Circuit says discrimination is editorial speech in Netchoice vs. Florida. So the above may or may not be a relevant distinction. Netchoice vs Paxton is going a different way so far.
Sure, I'll fix you up a wedding website.
Which scriptures did you want featured?
The government will still bring an enforcement action against you. Your labor is commandeered for as long as it takes until the special people are completely satisfied.
It says something that you have to exaggerate like this for your point to work, no?
Prove government won’t bring such an action. Colorado has a history of official government bigotry on this subject.
Has any action like what you describe previously been brought?
Masterpiece Cakeshop was harassed by the government to the point of leaving that market — because the special people were not satisfied with the business being fined, or distracted by prolonged litigation up to the US Supreme Court (and recently the Colorado one too).
You seem awfully proud of your ignorance.
You're mixing up Masterpiece Cakeshop with Sweetcakes by Melissa.
Masterpiece Cakeshop stopped selling wedding cakes, but continued selling other goods. It also appealed it's fine to the SCOTUS and got off, though the SCOTUS stopped short of saying that they could ignore the state's non-discrimination law.
Sweetcakes by Melissa is the one that closed it's storefront while the case was still in litigation because their anti-gay behavior lost them too many customers. They also appealed their fine to the SCOTUS (who refused cert), though there was never a question of if they could afford the fine: public donations from the Christian Martyr circuit were well above the fine amount.
Man, there’s something about The Gays that just really sets some people off.
You’re getting all worked up over people who are going out of their way to generate conflict. The couple could easily decide that since this person doesn’t want to work for us they’ll just find someone who will.
And it wouldn’t kill the website creator to just take the business. She won’t end up in hell over it and arguably her showing forgiveness for someone she considers to be a sinner would earn a thumbs up from Jesus.
As Rodney King said: Can't we all just get along?
What's this? Common sense?
Maybe it’s the harassment of the baker at Masterpiece Cakeshop. We can’t all be as comfortable with that kind of harassment as you are.
You all voted for Trump, notorious serial litigant, you can't be all that bothered by it.
That’s extremely shallow.
Everything about this is shallow. Nobody even asked her to make a website for gay people. She’s being pre-emptively homophobic.
"She won’t end up in hell over it…"
Can you get us a sworn statement that says this from the ones who adjudicate this? No? People don’t have to listen to random religious opinions, you know. I understand you think very highly of your opinion, but that’s 100% meaningless to everyone else. Maybe if you wrote it in all caps and included lots of exclamation points….
Or, you know, you could be content to let others believe as they wish. They didn’t ask for your input.
Lots of comments from individuals who dont work in a professional service industry such as attorneys, accountants, bakers, electricians, website designors, etc.
Professional service organizations and professional service providers turn down work all the time for numerous reasons.
Interestingly, Colorado claimed that
Does that mean the company complies with the law if it has free rein to include or exclude anything beyond prosaic details on a website it designs so long as they agree to service a same-sex wedding? I don’t think we know. Perhaps SCOTUS should hold the case is not ripe and vacate the lower court rulings?
This is interesting.
Is Colorado really saying that as long as they provide the service to the gay couple, it is OK to toss in all of Leviticus and the rest?
"Happy Wedding, Adam & Steve. We hope you enjoy burning in Hell for all eternity."
This is what they want for public policy?
Yes, quite possibly.
She chooses the kinds of services she offers (including wedding sites that celebrate the myth the the bible only endorsed one-man-one-woman marriage), and customers --gay and straight alike-- get to choose if they wish to purchase those services.
That most gay people would look at her services and say "nah, we'll find someone else" is a feature, not a bug.
The Libertarian view should be that anyone is allowed to refuse service to anyone, for any reason. Or for no reason.
And the liberal view is that a Christian photographer should not only be forced to photograph a gay wedding, but that he should be forced to follow the "married" couple into their honeymoon suite and film them having bareback anal sex.
Who were you before you transitioned? You sound an awful lot like another pathetic bigot who used to post a lot here about his anal-sex obsession.
A natural monopoly is why singers and actors get to charge outrageous rates for tickets and pay.
"So we can use this to reign in their pay, yes!!" -- Redistributionist yokel
"Wait, aren't they generally on our side, donating money and even fame to help us?"
"Yeah, so? We get to kill two birds with one stone, opposition to gay web sites, and rich people."
"Rich Hollywood people..."
"Oh, right. Ooooooh, right. Nevermind."
You are arguing that the reason no one is arguing for redistribution of art is because of Hollywood, not because it’s nonsensical?
The lengths some will go to for a new conspiracy theory…
A natural monopoly is why singers and actors get to charge outrageous rates for tickets and pay.
Not really what a natural monopoly is. They get to charge a lot because they are popular. Anyone can offer their services as a singer or actor. Somewhere well north of 99% will fail.
All must challenge your arguments regarding “Many will ask, what about racial discrimination? After all, even the most venomous racist speech is protected. But the distinctive features of racist denials of service”–a very similar argument, almost word for word, again has been made by Professor Douglas Laycock (one wonders, who was first to raise this deficient argument...or did you cobble it together jointly?). Perhaps you should give him credit for this preposterous claim–that in history persons of color were treated worse than LGBTQ+ people. Check out the work of United States Holocaust Museum and Memorial and perhaps visit the Monument to Persecuted Homosexuals During the Nationalist Socialist Regime in Berlin (the treatment of gay persons is a corollary to the Holocaust) –not to mention the treatment of gay and lesbian person with federal government firings, disparate treatment in the U.S. military and armed assaults on gay clubs in Colorado Springs, Orlando, etc.
The distinction is that most of the racist denials of service had nothing to do with the First Amendment. Serving someone a hamburger in a restaurant or providing them a seat on a bus are not expressive activities.
Designing a website is.
So you are saying, a racist claiming religious faith as foundation for his or her rejecting actions and compelled free speech rights COULD deny an expressive service such as cake bakery or web design to a person of color? Nice.
So you are another one of those who determine rights based on whether you agree with the expression?
Maybe you are too young to recall, but the 70s the town of Skokie, Illinois, where many Jewish holocaust survivors lived, refused a parade permit to a group of Nazis who wanted to hold a parade there. The courts ordered the town to do so. Even though such a parade would not be "nice."
As for your hypothetical, not quite. Those businesses could not refuse service to someone of color merely because they are of color. They could do so because they disagree with the expression generated by their service.
To use my example, there is a difference between serving someone a hamburger in a Woolworth's and baking a custom cake for the next NAACP convention.
How about a custom website for an interracial or Jewish marriage?
If the designer does not agree with those, then yes, the FIrst Amendment protects the refusal. The couple can find 100 other designers.
I think that's right, but I got the impression Dale disagreed because preventing racial discrimination is a greater government interest.
That is not the law of public accommodation right now.
I think there are pretty strong arguments that preventing racial discrimination is a greater governmental interest, but I don't think they're sufficient to prevail in this context.
Expressive association requires some nexus to the purpose of the organization, BL.
Yes, that follows (at least to the extent that cake baking is deemed an expressive service, which is somewhat controversial and unsettled).
And that's why SCOTUS didn't buy-in on that argument.
Because there was a majority that was okay with denying gay people services, there was not a majority that was okay with denying Black people services.
And since there's no coherent principle that permits a state to prohibit one kind of discrimination, but labels the other a bridge too far, they decided to avoid the whole deal with a dodge.
Not even all website design services are expressive. If Lorie Smith were just hosting customer-generated content on her online platform, or simply allowing customers to select off-the-rack design templates involving certain colors and fonts, her offerings in the wedding-website marketplace would be mainly her customers' expression — not her own. Similarly, if Smith were only offering an online platform to regurgitate prosaic details, like the time and place of the ceremony, such "speech" would not earn First Amendment protection. The Supreme Court has held that merely sending scheduling emails or announcing meeting locations is not constitutionally shielded expression.
I don't agree with this, either. The website itself is expressive. One does not have to allow one's resources to be used to support speech one does not agree with. A newspaper cannot be forced to print opposing views. Miami Herald Pub. Co. v. Tornillo, 418 U.S. 241 (1974). This has been interpreted to include paid advertisements that the newspaper does not want printed.
The website may be, but the service is not expression.
Newspapers are a lot more about speech than webspinning.
Your first sentence is irrelevant. Which was my very point.
Your second is true, but still irrelevant. Assuming I understand what "webspinning" is.
Is this blog less "expressive" in the First Amendment sense than a city newspaper? I doubt it.
You are grasping for straws to avoid a clear precedent. The newspaper in the Tornillo case did not have to agree with the forced op-ed, and presumably could post a disclaimer that it did not necessarily agree with what was on that page. (Radio stations still do this.) Yet it had a First Amendment right to refuse to print what it did not want to print.
The person providing the service here is not doing something expressive, even if the final result of the act contains expression.
Looking at the result is the wrong analysis; look at the actions of the person whose rights you are invoking.
The precedent you site seems more like you are grasping at straws. Writing is not the same as coding. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is not.
In the case here, the actions are expressive. Trying to draw a broader general rule is just wishcasting as legal analysis.
Sarcastr0 20 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"The person providing the service here is not doing something expressive, even if the final result of the act contains expression."
You are confusing hosting a web site with designing a website. A lot more goes into creating a website , than just providing a template. That is what Wix does or godaddy does. The vast majority of website designers do a lot more than that.
Read like 4 comments up, Joe:
"Not even all website design services are expressive. If Lorie Smith were just hosting customer-generated content on her online platform, or simply allowing customers to select off-the-rack design templates involving certain colors and fonts, her offerings in the wedding-website marketplace would be mainly her customers’ expression — not her own."
I disagree with your conclusion as it relates to prosaic details because there is de minimis expression and thus your precedents don't apply.
I can see good arguments both ways as it relates to off-the-shelf templates. On the one hand, the Herald won because editorial space is limited and hosting messages you don't want crowds out messages you want to host. On the other hand, providing a template isn't the same as publishing opinions. Unlike with an editorial or a customized website, a template involves no expression by the owner.
BTW, the notion that this web designer has a monopoly is truly laughable. That's why I disagree with Carpenter that there is anything compelling here. One, a website for your wedding is not that crucial, lots of people get married without one. (People even got married before the internet. Hard to believe, I know.) And two, I bet that a quick Google search will yield 100 web designers who would be happy to take the business.
...and we all know gays are so much more creative then cis people.
This cis person literally created a gay couple that are forcing her to do work for them!
It baffles me why someone would want a bigot providing them such a personal service.
I think it is great that these businesses out themselves as bigots so we can take our business elsewhere.
They’re just in it to harass people who are not like them. Otherwise they’d choose to work with people who want to work with them.
Well, whether it's harassment or not, it's people who HATE them.
You’re surprised that people don’t have fond feelings for the ones who harass them.
(But not really, no. You’re just an asshole who spews random shit all over.)
concur
Yes, it's horrible when the people you hate fight back.
That's the great thing about this case! No one asked her to do anything! She sued the state, not the other-way around.
Hasn't stopped folks from making up imaginary gay couples for years though.
You prove my point. Until people call homosexual behavior a good thing and not a perversion , you will not be satisfied. you are against conscience rights -- unless they are your conscience rights.
A couple of points:
1. While these cases seem to generate a huge amount of attention, they don’t really deserve it. They involve a few activities where it’s arguable whether they are a kind of speech or not. Which way the boundary cases are called may not matter that much in the big scheme of things.
2. Other than which way to place the boundary cases, nobody (in the legal world) is arguing about the basic framework. Everybody accepts that the state can’t compel people to speak messages they don’t agree with, so if it’s speech, the law doesn’t cover it and the web designer wins. And everybody accepts states have broad powers to define and regulate public accommodations, so if it isn’t speech, the law covers it and the web designer loses.
3. The question of whether it’s speech or not is a narrow one and really has nothing to do with what one thinks about these laws, these religious beliefs, homosexuality, conservative Christianity, or anything like that.
4. Web site design has a much, much better claim to be speech than cake decorating, a claim I think is so solid it’s pretty much open and shut under current First Amendment law. It seems to me web site design is more clearly speech than parade organizing, which the Supreme Court held was speech back in the 1990s. Web sites are the way a great deal of communication takes place in society, and are quite similar to things like books and newspapers.
The public has been focusing on the religion claims. But this case should be decided on the speech claims, not the religion claims. The religion claims here are difficult, as they were in Masterpiece Cakeshop and Fulton. The court should wait for a case where they are squarely presented, and continue its practice of deciding cases on other, more straightforward grounds where possible.
Other than which way to place the boundary cases, nobody (in the legal world) is arguing about the basic framework. Everybody accepts that the state can’t compel people to speak messages they don’t agree with, so if it’s speech, the law doesn’t cover it and the web designer wins.
Sorry, that is not correct. The 10th Circuit held that the web designer was engaged in speech, but the state could compel that speech anyway, because it had a compelling interest in doing so, and the applicaiton passed strict scrutiny. See the 10th Circuit decision here:https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca10/19-1413/19-1413-2021-07-26.html
And my understanding is that the parties are arguing the case before SCOTUS on that basis — it is conceded she is engaged in speech.
As for your boundary question, IMO there is a simply test for that. If the state banned an activity, would that violate the 1st Amendment? If so, it can also not compel private citizens to engage in that activity.
Apply that to baking wedding cakes. Can a state ban making wedding cakes for same-sex marriages, but allow it for other marriages? Clearly not. Apart from Equal Protection, that would run afoul of the First Amendment, because wedding cakes are an expression of celebration of a wedding. Thus, the state cannot compel a private baker to bake custom wedding cakes to celebrate same-sex marriages.
I think the 10th Circuit is clearly wrong and will be easily reversed. And I think the question of whether or not a state can ban an activity has nothing whatsover to do with whether a person can be be compelled to talk about it.
The relevant question there was whether it was an expression of the baker's celebration of the wedding, and on that the SCOTUS very firmly decided to dodge. After making analogies to whether or not a chef could refuse to make an anniversary hamburger, and whether or not a smushed cupcake was an expression from the baker.
Sorry, but that misses the point on which both sides agree !!! It is about the morality or immorality of gay marriage !! And as always happens, you abandon the facts to bring in counter-factuals of your own imagining. A chef refusing to make an anniversary hamburger?? Aren't you embarassed by descending so low.
Slave owners were outraged that abolitionists and decent people didn't say that slavery was a good thing . THAT was the issue then and now.
LINCOLN
Demanding what they do, and for the reason they do, they can voluntarily stop nowhere short of this consummation. Holding, as they do, that slavery is morally right, and socially elevating, they cannot cease to demand a full national recognition of it, as a legal right, and a social blessing. A SOCIAL BLESSING
=======
That is the whole issue as I see it and I've watched this for decades and heard countless people give their honest opinion.
The gay couple hates it that the Christian baker thinks their 'love' is perversion.
Let's get down to basics...
You use the word 'marriage' but without any legal mooring.
“[W]e need not speculate. When the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868, every State limited marriage to one man and one woman, and no one doubted the constitutionality of doing so. That resolves these cases.” SCALIA
I think your points 2 and 4 are ludicrous.
2) If you were pulled into court and subjected to intense hate over your views, you would not be so blase. I am sure. That was the thinking in the Kamala Harris case that the ACLU and the Supreme Court agreed on. Just putting people out in public like that is a huge punishment.
4) So if the cake decorator has a website, what then?
He can't say anything on the website but those exact things are protected at his bakery. Notice , when you start assessing the tons of job descriptions for what is 'more like speech" and what is less we have utter chaos.
"Nobody has to X" is one of the stupidest arguments around, and that's saying something. Maybe nobody has to X, but everybody has to do SOMETHING.
Are you going to limit these laws to X? No, you're not. In fact, the history of anti-discrimination law is one of cancerous growth. It started out applying only to local monopolies of vital services. At this point it's being applied to wedding photographers, bakers, and web designers, in well served markets.
Tomorrow? Who knows, the sky is the limit, because anti-discrimination is a cause with no limiting principle. There is no "This far, and no further!" built into this crusade. In fact, the further it marches, the harder it becomes to justify the remaining pockets of liberty.
So, it's a slippery slope. Funny how many of the arguments you use nowadays are also logical fallacies.
Slippery slope cannot mean that was is wrong or right now must be called the opposite because of what might happen. Too much of that nonsense infects SCOTUS opinions. Is it wrong to end the life of an innocent irrepeatable baby? that is a question that can be answered while ignoring the slope.
And abortion only got its foot in the door because people like Hillary relentlessly said it should be very rare, we must help those who want their babies --- and other things she never ever in fact did or helped to do. This is what I call the slippery ascent, when yu say 'yes, this is horrible but we are working to eliminate it and things will now get better"
Brett, actually I am not particularly a Bork fan but he was right that
nude dancing, for example, is not a speech issue. I agree about the unhinged growth of this kind of legal reasoning. But let's recur to basics. Is there an honest reasonable human being that doesn't see the hatred of couple supposedly celebraing marriage by trying to destroy the livelihood of a humble simple baker trying to make a living??? And Colorado is complicit by making it into something it is not. I think they would have been disappointed if the guy just said "I am an atheist but a reasonable person and this gay thing is not right at all and I don't want to support it in any way"
Free Speech starts with NOT asking why someone's conscience bars them from an otherwise non-momentous act. Remember,
he could make more money and be more popular if he caved in.
Do you want a society of spineless caver-ins ??
This really isn't complicated.
(1) The court could say that the law is being inappropriately applied to the website designer buisness, and the buisness shouldn't be bound by such non-discrimination laws.
(2) The court could say that Colorado has it right, judgement stands.
(3) the court could focus in on something weird and largely irrelevant to weasel out of things, like they've done before.
(4) the court could add in a non-textual "Freedom of Speech" exception to non-discrimination laws.
In the past, the SCOTUS has taken options 2 (Elane Photography) and 3 (Masterpiece Cakeshop). Other courts have taken option 4 (Hands on Originals), but so far the SCOTUS has not.
Why has the SCTOUS not taken options 1 or 4? Because it would obviously open the doors to discrimination against way more then just gay people, and while other states have been willing to do that, SCOTUS has (so far) not.
But those four options are really what it comes down to: weasel out, side with the state, or two different ways to allow people to discriminate based on race and religion.
And you totally bypassed 22 State Attorneys General...
But “[i]f there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment,” it is
that individuals may not wield the power of the state to stamp out insulting
opinions or compel affirmance of a comforting orthodoxy. Johnson, 491 U.S. at
414. However offensive Scardina finds Phillips’s views on gender and sexuality,
Colorado cannot compel him to profess a contrary belief. Obergefell, 576 U.S. at
679-80 (majority opinion).
How about the opposite tack, showing what the horror is of unleashing the gay animus against people we don't like.
kamala Harris went on a hateful vindictive crusade to force into the open anyone she didn't approve of, in a way most similar to this case ( if you see the deep issues , the implications) and the Court 6-3 condemned her
"In general, California’s policy [ where she was AG at the time ]
was so bad, and the 9th Circuits decision protecting the policy so off the beaten legal path that the ACLU, Council on American-Islamic Relations, and the Electronic Frontier Foundation all filed briefs supporting AFP. "
Here is the core of the issue: Both the baker and the website designer had to endure fear and hate simply because the case entered the public eye. Want to show yourself a gay-loving liberalk ? Then please show the dues-paying hate to the current defendant.
So these cases let the wrong side win every time because solitary decent folk have to endure the hate that the lawsuit engenders.
THat is what the First Amendment most fights against. See John Adams defense of the eight British soldiers accused of murder during a riot in Boston on March 5, 1770
Alito and Thomas are pellucidly in the right when they point out :
the court's decision "enables courts and governments to brand religious adherents who believe that marriage is between one man and one woman as bigots, making their religious liberty concerns that much easier to dismiss."
What can possible be objected against that? Does government now command the right to monitor your inner thoughts, your conscience?
Legal is not the same as 'moral" or we would be a country of slaves right now.
“Forcing Phillips to make custom wedding cakes for same-sex marriages requires him to, at the very least, acknowledge that same-sex weddings are ‘weddings’ and suggest that they should be celebrated—the precise message he believes his faith forbids. The First Amendment prohibits Colorado from requiring Phillips to ‘bear witness to [these] fact[s],’ or to ‘affir[m] . . . a belief with which [he] disagrees.’”
So if Colorado tries even one more time , I think a hefty damn fine of the state of Colorado would put an end to this state persecution of a simple law-abiding citizen.
Odd that no one brught up the intense dislike of urban Colorado by many of the state's residents
"With Colorado 'at war' with small businesses, agriculture, and oil and gas, Weld County group seeks secession to Wyoming", the 3rd largest county in Colorado.
I know people who LOATHE homosexual perversion who don't feel at all antagonistic to someone with a same-sex attraction. Of course. Having a thing for your neighbor is not adultery. Same thing.
So you cloud the issue with "promoting equality in daily life for gay Americans". gay perversion is not the same as being gay.
Obviously.
But you violate the core of Libertarianism and maybe the only thing in common with Conservatism , namely no one , including Reason Mag should be allowed to see a gay , Republican , Muslim, Trump supporter and decide that being gay is the core value of that person. That is the worst kind of hatred, isn't it. You say "gay" as if the whole life of that person is some sexual matter !!!!!
I am so frustrated by Reason , it never gets the spiritual side of anything, almost never.
The 13th Amendment has been interpreted that way, though.
Queen coming out for slavery - not surprising
I don't know the answer to that, and I'm no fan of ADF, but I agree with Carpenter here.
A web site is clearly expression, and forcing someone to say something that they disagree with on religious grounds looks like a 1A violation to me.
Plus, the whole "she has a monopoly on her own creativity business is nonsense. For starters, it seems likely that, even if she has to do the design, she might not put whole-hearted effort into it, so the couple wouldn't really get the full benefit.
Ad hominem argument. And a hypothetical one, too.
Someone would take up their case. And the designer should be permittd to refuse service, if he or she wants to.
"...even if she has to do the design, she might not put whole-hearted effort into it, so the couple wouldn’t really get the full benefit."
THAT is the real issue here -- the first thing I thought of with the Masterpiece Baking issue was if you really would want to eat a cake made by someone who hated you -- and what might be in it...
Conversely, think of the liability here -- bleep happens, and if it does, you *know* that it will be claimed that it was intentional. I'd refuse the gig on that grounds alone.
And there are so many gay-owned businesses that would love to have the work. And who could probably do a better job -- try as I might, I'm not going to see the love between two men, but a gay man likely would.
I agree with that. I’m disappointed in the designer because she’s using a Christian excuse to act in a way that’s not really consistent with Christ’s teachings.
But if I were the couple I’d take my business elsewhere because I’d be worried (meaning absolutely convinced) that the product I’d get from someone forced to do the work would be half-assed. Or worse.
Concur with Carpenter and bernard.
This is an easy one on both facts and law.
Who are you to determine what Christ's teachings are?
"I agree with that. I’m disappointed in the designer because she’s using a Christian excuse to act in a way that’s not really consistent with Christ’s teachings."
Mark 10:5-8
Who is Lorie Smith to determine that?
She's the one practicing, and gets to determine what those teachings are, as long as she's sincere. Bevis does not.
Y’all are funny. I’m not aware of Christ teaching “I don’t like what those guys do, so fuck ‘em”. Can you point to that passage for me?
Or does he talk about loving your neighbor as yourself and forgiving your enemies and removing the plank from your own eye?
Which is it? Y’all must be thinking about Political Jesus. Who doesn’t actually exist.
What? bevis absolutely has as much right as Smith to decide what he thinks those teachings say about that kind of situation. What he doesn't have is the authority to force her to do what he thinks is right, but he didn't suggest he did.
How much personal creativity is involved in the specific product. Cakes off a list? Not much.
You order 5 dishes featuring sea urchins? Yeah that chef gets to take into account what he’s work for.
A specific website is more the latter than the former.
Where’s the line?
Always a weak argument. The existence of gray areas does not imply the absence of black and white areas.
Do you really not see a difference between a law prohibiting someone from trespassing on someone's property and a law that says that a person has the RIGHT to trespass on someone's property and demand service?
That's lame. People may petition and advocate traffic controls or trespassing laws but they don't get to decide. The decision is made by "the people" through the actions of their elected representative.
Slaves were paid -- they were given food and lodging as pay.
"Shanghi"ed sailors were also paid in food and lodging.
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion."
You eat 'hore's eggs?!?
I remember when we used to bounce them off the stern to kill them...
By Dunning-Kruger mascots like you and Brett Bellmore? Yes, we can see that.
By actual judges, lawyers, legal historians, or just generally people with a semblance of an idea about what they’re talking about? Not so much.
That’s not Jesus.
Ed, was Jesus in the Old Testament? Y’all are coming up with all this theological stuff I’ve never heard before.
Besides which, you’re completely missing the point. Sure, according to Leviticus gays are sinning. Guess what Ed - you’re a sinner too. And I guess maybe me as well.
Jesus ministry wasn’t about shunning and punishing sinners, luckily enough for you. He preached tolerance and mercy and forgiveness. To sinners and non-sinners, assuming you can find one.
Ever have bacon for breakfast, Ed?
Only if you are a government employee. See Reason stories of PA Wildlife Commission trespassing on a persons land to install wildlife cameras and prosecuting him when he removed them.
I'm curious if SCOTUS or any of the Circuit courts have ever considered a 13th amendment challenge to public accommodations laws.
It might be an obvious loser, but is there on point precedent or would it be a matter of first impression?
Food and lodging is not "pay". "Pay" involves money, typically legal tender (rather than company scrip).
Some confusion here between 'given' and 'forced on them.'
...and now it's up to the court to decide if it applies.
I ain’t forcing anyone to do anything. In fact, you and your political philosophy are a lot more likely to tell people what to do than I am.
I was just pointing out that Jesus didn’t teach ostentatiously hating someone because you think they’re sinners. Guess they don’t teach that in your church, assuming you bother to go to one. Your church must teach “throw the first stone, then keep throwing them until your arm wears out”.
And aren’t you one of the folks that’s frothing at the mouth over letting those icky gays marry? Remind me again which of us favors liberty?
Yes, they have considered it. See Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States:
Nope - just saw an Iron Chef episode.
1990s Japanese one, natch.
Dude, you could at least finish reading my comment before you jump to attribute some weird bullshit to me. I explicitly said that you didn't even suggest that you had any such power to force the question.
Really silly comment. We are talking about expression here, not murder.
If a religion believes in human sacrifice, and advocated for legalizing that, and then asked a printer to print up literature containing that advocacy, you would have the equivalent of the SCOTUS case.
In which case, I would argue the 1st Amendment relieves the printer of the obligation to print something he finds offensive or even just disagrees with.
Sincere question - how do you distinguish between this and a normal public accommodation situation? Because this objection is said to be religious?
Because it involves expression. When there is a conflict between expression and public accomodation (by private actors, not State actors), then expression wins.
As I said below, serving a hamburger in a restaurant or selling a seat on a bus for a ride do not involve expression. A website does.
Thank you.
Food & lodging is definitely pay/compensation.
Granted in in context of slavery, it was very low pay, but it was still pay.
re: "Food and lodging is not pay"
The IRS disagrees with you. So does every court ever. Pay is anything of value. There is no requirement at all for the pay to be delivered in any particular form.
Slavery is defined not by whether you are paid but by whether you had a choice to enter into the relationship.
Money paid can be used for different things, at the will of the spender.
Slaves don’t get that freedom.
They can’t negotiate. They can lose what is provided anytime their master decides.
This is a distinction you should not semantic away.
Food & lodging might be pay in some contexts - back in the day an apprentice might happily agree to work for room and board to learn a trade, with no money changing hands. But not that was a *willing transaction*.
And I think that's key - prisoners of any kind - convicts, slaves, POWs, aren't being 'paid' because they are getting fed. 'The POW's in the Hanoi Hilton were being paid!' is nonsense (paid by the VN's that is, I presume their pay from the US continued).
If I kidnap you and chain you in my basement, but feed you occasionally, are you being paid? Because that's what slavery was.
Apprentices often ran away from apprentices -- Benjamin Franklin did. He was an apprentice in Boston and didn't want to be so ran away to Philadelphia.
food and housing is compensation - as I stated, it was slave labor wages - very low pay (often exceedingly low) , but it remained pay.
People can get paid in other than money; contrary to what Michael P and Sarcastr0 write, food and lodging can indeed be pay. It was not pay for the slaves, however. Not because it was not in hard currency or because it was low, but because it was not compensation for services. There was no agreed exchange.
And even more importantly, the option EXIT the relationship.