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Court Holds Parents Have Right to Opt Out of Gender Identity Teaching to First-Grade Children
In Tatel v. Mt. Lebanon Sch. Dist. (W.D. Pa.), decided yesterday, Judge Joy Flowers Conti concluded that the Third Circuit (the federal appellate court that covers Pennsylvania) recognizes some parental rights over the control of their children's education even in public schools:
{[P]arents, not schools, have the primary responsibility to inculcate moral standards, religious beliefs, and elements of good citizenship in their children. With respect to important matters that strike at the heart of parenting (such as inculcation of religious beliefs or teachings contrary to the parents' religious beliefs), the fundamental rights of parents might override the interests of a public school; the school would need to show its actions are narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling interest.
At issue here are whether Parents have a right to expect that first-grade teachers will not expose their impressionable young children to sensitive gender identity topics against the parents' instructions; will not tell children that parents make mistakes about important matters such as their children's identity; will not tell children the teacher would never lie (implying that their parents may lie about a child's identity); will not advise children they may dress or be groomed as a different gender; and will not tell children not to talk to their parents about what they learn in school about those topics.}
I'm skeptical about claims of parents' constitutional right to opt out from parts of public school curricula (and about K-12 teachers' claims of a constitutional right to include in their teaching things that the school doesn't want them to include); I think all those decisions should generally be left to the political process. (Establishment Clause precedents make this complicated when it comes to religious speech, and there's some First Amendment right for students to be free from some kinds of compelled speech, such as pledges of allegiance and the like, but those are separate matters.) Still, I think this is an important decision that's worth noting. From the court's discussion of the facts:
The parents allege that their children's first-grade teacher, with the permission of the public school district, pursued her own agenda outside the curriculum, which included showing videos or reading books about transgender topics and telling the first-grade students in her class (ages six and seven years old) to keep her discussions with them about transgender topics secret from their parents.
The teacher's alleged conduct went far beyond instructing a student that someone who differs from that student must be treated with kindness, tolerance and respect. As pled in the complaint, the teacher, among other things, instructed the children in her first-grade class that their parents might be wrong about their children's gender and told one of her students that she (the teacher) would never lie (implying that the parents may lie about their child's identity) and the child could dress like a different gender and be like the teacher's transgender child. When the parents complained, the school district supported the teacher and allegedly adopted a policy (the "de facto policy") that the teacher's conduct could continue in the future without notice to the parents or the opportunity to opt out….
The Parents assert they do not seek to impose their religious or moral beliefs about transgender topics on other students. Instead, the parents seek to protect their own young children from a public school teacher's showing videos and reading books about transgender topics and her attempts to promote or inculcate in the young children in her class the teacher's ideas or beliefs about a child's gender identity and to initiate and engage in discussions with the first-graders in her class about the children's own gender identity without the permission of their parents. No party in this case raised any issue about the existence in the school district of bullying or intolerance toward transgender children. Based upon the allegations of the complaint, the court need not resolve at the pleading stage whether there is a difference, for constitutional purposes, between teaching children about kindness toward other children and seeking to influence a young child's beliefs about the child's own gender identity or to advance a teacher's own beliefs about the inappropriateness of a parent's religious beliefs concerning gender identity….
The Parents allege that the District had a policy and practice of providing parental notification and "opt out" rights when sensitive, complex or controversial topics (such as the Holocaust, slavery, the 9/11 terrorist attacks, reproductive education, sex education, Black Lives Matter and Planned Parenthood) were to be taught in a given class. District Policy I(F) is entitled "Curriculum and Parental Rights" and provides for parental review of instructional materials and opt out rights related to instruction that conflicts with their First Amendment beliefs. The Parents allege that defendants failed to recognize their fundamental rights as parents or adhere to the District's notice and opt out policies in Williams' [the teacher's] classroom.
Williams is the mother of a transgender child who, like the Plaintiffs' children, was in the first grade during the 2021-2022 school year. Williams told parents she "has an agenda" and intends to teach "right on the edge." Williams told one Plaintiff "as long as I am on this earth, I am going to teach children what I feel they need to learn." For example, students in Williams' classroom, against the instruction of the District, were not given the opportunity to recite the Pledge of Allegiance for 52 straight days at the start of the school year. As another example, a Plaintiff's child informed Williams that she was not allowed to watch a certain cartoon (based on a parental choice that some of the content was not age-appropriate). Williams forged ahead, telling the child "I will tell your mom that I told you it was ok to watch it." Williams emailed the parent, informing her that she showed the cartoon to the student even though the child told her she was not allowed to watch it at home.
The published Grade 1 curriculum does not mention or discuss teaching about gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning. Teaching about diversity, equity and inclusion ("DEI") is not included in the first-grade curriculum. No notice or information was provided to parents indicating that gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning would be taught to first graders. In October 2021, a group of concerned parents met with Bielewicz [the principal], who assured them there were no formal lessons about gender identity, especially in first grade.
The Parents allege that defendants permitted Williams to teach and condoned her teaching about gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning to her first-grade students. The Parents allege that this instruction was: (1) contrary to the District's published curriculum; and (2) "in direct disregard of one set of parents' express request that such topics not be taught to their seven-year-old child." The Parents allege that Williams taught their children that "'sometimes parents make mistakes' about a child's gender." The Parents allege that Williams encouraged their children "not to tell their parents about her instruction."
The Parents allege that Williams brought the topics of gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning into her classroom teachings throughout the school year. Early in the fall of 2021, Williams played a video of "Jacob's New Dress." Williams explained to her students that her transgender child wore an Elsa dress for Halloween.
The child of one Plaintiff reported that Williams told him that he could "wear a dress and have hair like my mom." At a parent-teacher conference, that Plaintiff expressed displeasure with Williams for telling her son that he could dress and wear his hair like his mother. Williams had private conversations with this boy throughout the school year, in which she discussed the similarities between the boy and Williams' transgender child. Williams suggested the boy might want to wear a dress; that the two children had similar interests and the same favorite color; and told the boy "he could be like her transgender child." Williams told the boy "doctors can get it [gender] wrong sometimes." Williams told the boy that "she would never lie to him" and told the boy not to tell his parents about the discussions. Id. Plaintiffs characterize this conduct as "grooming" and as a gross breach of trust and abuse of her position as a public school teacher.
In March 2022, Williams began to discuss with her class her child's gender dysphoria and explained that her child was once a boy, but is now a girl. On March 31, 2022 (the Transgender Day of Visibility), Williams provided direct classroom instruction on gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning. Williams explained to her students that sometimes "parents are wrong" and parents and doctors "make mistakes" when they bring a child home from the hospital.
As part of direct classroom instruction that day, Williams played two videos and/or read two books while video illustrations played: (1) When Aiden Became a Brother, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F2_UR4y0iw); and (2) Introducing Teddy, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRmNpLYgCM). Plaintiffs allege that the clear and obvious subject matter of these videos or books is gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning. Williams' instruction about gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning caused confusion among some of the students. For example, one child asked her mom "how do you know that I am a girl."
These materials were not listed on the first-grade curriculum and parents were given no notice or opportunity to opt their children out of having those materials presented to them in school. Williams sought (and received) permission from Bielewicz to use the videos/books as part of her classroom teaching on the morning of March 31, 2022, the same day she later played the videos or read the books to the students in her class. Williams sent an email to all the elementary teachers, encouraging them to play the videos in their classrooms. At least two other elementary teachers did so, without providing notice to the parents.
The complaint alleges that Bielewicz "was fully aware that his permission would cause an uproar among certain parents but he provided it anyway and did so without any notice to parents." A group of parents determined that the videos/books "violated their express direction as to what they as parents did not want taught to their child." In October 2021, these parents told Bielewicz they were not comfortable with their children "learning about gender identity at this age," and Bielewicz advised them those topics would not be covered.
Plaintiffs allege that Williams' instruction about gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning conflicts with their sincerely held religious and moral beliefs that "human beings are created male or female and that the natural created order regarding human sexuality cannot be changed regardless of individual feelings, beliefs, or discomfort with one's identity, and biological reality, as either male or female." Plaintiffs also assert they have sincerely held religious and moral beliefs that "parents have the non-delegable duty to direct the upbringing and beliefs and religious training of their children." Plaintiffs contend that defendants deliberately supplanted the parents' role to control the instruction of their young children on transgender topics in accordance with their values.
Upon learning about Williams' instruction on March 31, 2022, one plaintiff removed her child from Jefferson Elementary school and enrolled him in cyber school. One plaintiff met with Williams, voiced her objections, and explained that she would like to be the person responsible for discussing those topics with her child. Williams responded they would "need to agree to disagree" and stated "100% I have an agenda" and she had no intention of stopping her instruction. Williams also claimed that Bielewicz and the Board approved the videos.
The Parents allege that they complained about Williams' instruction to administrators, as well as at three Board meetings, but got excuses and were "stonewalled." On April 5, 2022, Bielewicz confirmed he approved the videos on the morning of March 31, 2022, and explained he thought they were appropriate and Williams was qualified to provide instruction based on her own personal experiences. Bielewicz indicated that Steinhauer, Irvin and the Board agreed the instruction was appropriate after the fact. One Plaintiff asserted her right as a parent to discuss that topic with her child and Bielewicz responded they would need to "agree to disagree" and stated that Williams might teach those subjects in the future. At another meeting with parents on April 5, 2022, Bielewicz conceded he should "take a mark" (i.e., accept fault) for not notifying these parents despite their prior request and despite his prior representation that transgender topics would not be presented to first graders.
Plaintiffs characterize Williams' excuse for introducing transgender topics—i.e., that she would be bringing her own child into the classroom on Bring Your Child to Work Day—as a purposefully deceptive ruse. Bielewicz confirmed to parents on April 5, 2022, that there was no change in the District's policy that teachers could not bring their kids to work on Bring Your Child To Work Day. Subsequently, the District announced a policy change, based on an objection by Williams, and permitted teachers to bring their children in that day.
The Parents met with Steinhauer in early April 2022. Although Steinhauer made conciliatory statements (i.e., the video should have been approved by a higher level of the administration and it was reasonable for parents to have a choice), he has not announced any policy change to contradict the de facto policy that the transgender topics may continue to be taught without notice or opt out rights for parents. At a public meeting on April 19, 2022, Irvin defended Williams' instruction and use of the videos as consistent with District Policy I(J) (related to curriculum). Irvin did not discuss the parental rights in Policy I(F). The Parents allege they were told by the administration that Williams could conduct this instruction now and in the future without a commitment to provide parental notification and opt out rights.
As noted, the issue was discussed at three school board meetings. At one school board meeting, Wyland (the Board President) gave a monologue in favor of Williams' instruction. The Parents allege that the conduct of the administration and Board constitutes a de facto policy permitting the teaching of gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning in elementary schools in the District without providing parental notification and opt out rights. Defendants do not challenge the sufficiency of the allegations about the existence of a de facto policy.
In summary, there are two distinct grounds for liability set forth in the complaint: (1) Williams' pursuit of her own agenda about transgender topics throughout the school year, including showing the videos and reading the books, advising the first-graders in her class that parents may be mistaken about their children's gender, telling a child she would never lie, telling one child that child could dress and be groomed like a child of the opposite sex, and attempting to keep these efforts secret from the parents; and (2) the adoption by the District of the de facto policy to permit that conduct in the future. Plaintiffs seek a permanent injunction that: (1) prohibits the District from providing instruction in its elementary schools on gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning; or (2) requires the District to provide parental notice and opt out rights. Plaintiffs also seek compensatory and punitive damages….
The court noted that some courts, such as the Ninth Circuit, conclude that parental rights don't provide any parental opt-out from things that happen in school, but concluded that Third Circuit law is otherwise:
The parental right to custody, control and nurture of their children is deeply rooted and implicit in the United States' concept of ordered liberty. The Supreme Court repeatedly emphasized the fundamental nature of that parental right…. Troxel v. Granville (2000) ….
The United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit has recognized, in the public school setting, the primacy of parental rights in the upbringing of their children…. In Gruenke, a high school swim coach intruded into the suspected pregnancy of a student swimmer without informing the parents. The court cautioned: "Public schools must not forget that 'in loco parentis' does not mean 'displace parents.'" …
The Third Circuit Court of Appeals recognized that parental rights are entitled to protection outside the school setting from misguided attempts to impose moral views by government officials. In Miller v. Mitchell (3d Cir. 2010), the court recognized a parent's Fourteenth Amendment Substantive Due Process right to shield her child from unwelcome moral views about teenage girls sending sexually suggestive photos (i.e., sexting). A local district attorney sought to require the girls' attendance at a program teaching that the minors' actions were morally wrong. The parent objected that these views contradicted the beliefs she wished to instill in her daughter. The court granted an injunction and explained:
We agree that an individual District Attorney may not coerce parents into permitting him to impose on their children his ideas of morality and gender roles. An essential component of Jane Doe's right to raise her daughter—the "responsibility to inculcate moral standards, religious beliefs, and elements of good citizenship"—was interfered with by the District Attorney's actions.
The court noted that the program was not part of the school curriculum. {The court did not decide how this conduct would be analyzed if it had been included in the school curriculum.} …
Ridgewood [another Third Circuit case], … involved a student survey about sexual practices in a public school. The anonymous survey of 7th through 12th graders at issue in Ridgewood "in no way indoctrinated the students in any particular outlook on these sensitive topics; at most, they may have introduced a few topics unknown to certain individuals." The court recognized that "the Supreme Court has extended constitutional protection to parental decisions regarding certain matters." The court concluded, however, that "the survey's interference with parental decision-making did not amount to a constitutional violation." In its analysis, the court specifically rejected the reasoning in Fields and explained:
In reaching this conclusion, we do not hold, as did the panel in Fields v. Palmdale School District (9th Cir. 2005), that the right of parents under the Meyer-Pierce rubric "does not extend beyond the threshold of the school door." Nor do we endorse the categorical approach to this right taken by the Fields court, wherein it appears that a claim grounded in Meyer-Pierce will now trigger only an inquiry into whether or not the parent chose to send their child to public school and if so, then the claim will fail. Instead, guided by Gruenke, wherein this Court stressed that it is primarily the parents' right "to inculcate moral standards, religious beliefs and elements of good citizenship," we have determined only that, on the facts presented, the parental decisions alleged to have been usurped by the School Defendants are not of comparable gravity to those protected under existing Supreme Court precedent….
Limits on parental rights
Even under the Third Circuit Court of Appeals' broader precedent, parental rights are not absolute or unlimited…. The court in Ridgewood interpreted Gruenke to distinguish "between actions that strike at the heart of parental decision-making authority on matters of the greatest importance and other actions that, although perhaps unwise and offensive, are not of constitutional dimension." … In Parker, the court noted that the impressionability of young school children is another relevant factor in the constitutional analysis. Plaintiffs repeatedly emphasize that their children were only six or seven years old. Defendants did not address how the age of the children impacts the constitutional analysis. In Ridgewood, the court recognized that public schools may require older students to state the arguments that could be made on both sides, to encourage critical thinking, but may not demand that a student profess beliefs with which the student disagrees…. In sum, the parental right to control the education and upbringing of a child loses some force as the child nears adulthood.
The dispute in this case rises to constitutional importance …
Teaching a child how to determine one's gender identity at least plausibly is a matter of great importance that goes to the heart of parenting.
The Parents assert they have sincerely held religious and moral beliefs that "human beings are created male or female and that the natural created order regarding human sexuality cannot be changed regardless of individual feelings, beliefs, or discomfort with one's identity, and biological reality, as either male or female." The transgender movement posits a distinctly different view of identity formation…. The contradictions between these worldviews are likely beyond the grasp of most first-graders.
The Parents allege that Williams' instruction about gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning caused confusion among students and resulted in one child asking her mom "how do you know that I am a girl?" Introducing and teaching a child about complex and sensitive gender identity topics before the parent would have done so can undermine parental authority. A teacher instructing first graders that the child's parents' beliefs about gender identity may be wrong and the teacher's beliefs are correct directly repudiates parental authority. The instruction need not be "pro-transgender"; parental rights could also be implicated if a teacher instructed that an anti-transgender position is correct. Williams' alleged conduct, allegedly approved by the District, implicates the Parents' constitutional rights.
Narrowly tailored to serve a compelling interest
… To burden a fundamental parental right, a school district must establish that its actions are narrowly tailored to serve a compelling interest. Based upon the facts pled and the reasonable inferences drawn from them, the defendants—not the Parents—may have the burden to demonstrate a "compelling interest" to override the fundamental parental rights at issue and that any infringement is "narrowly tailored" to serve that interest.
The District argues, in essence, that there was no constitutional violation because the students were merely exposed to two books/videos about tolerance. The District suggests (somewhat contradictorily) that: (1) Williams was entitled to promote acceptance of transgendered children {Defendants did not directly address whether Williams acted within her authority with respect to the allegations about "grooming" of a specific child, telling the first-graders that parents make mistakes about gender, or instructing the children not to tell their parents about those conversations}; (2) the District has untrammeled authority to choose its curriculum and, if children are exposed to sensitive information, the proper remedy is for the Parents to discuss those matters at home; and (3) it is not responsible for Williams' instruction because it was not in the curriculum. At the motion to dismiss stage, the District's arguments lack merit. On a fully developed record, Defendants may raise factual disputes about Williams' conduct, the District's knowledge about and approval of her conduct, and the content of the books/videos. At this pleading stage, however, the facts alleged in the complaint must be accepted as true and all reasonable inferences drawn from those facts must be construed in favor of Plaintiffs.
Unless the school demonstrates that its conduct is narrowly tailored to achieve a compelling interest, a school's interest in promoting tolerance, while laudable, cannot override a fundamental parental right about teaching sensitive topics that go to the heart of the parents' relationship to their young children. Meyer ("a desirable end cannot be promoted by prohibited means"). In Fulton, the Supreme Court recently explained that the government's asserted "compelling need" must be scrutinized in light of the specific opt out request:
Rather than rely on "broadly formulated interests," courts must "scrutinize[ ] the asserted harm of granting specific exemptions to particular religious claimants." The question, then, is not whether the City has a compelling interest in enforcing its non-discrimination policies generally, but whether it has such an interest in denying an exception to CSS.
In other words, in this case the District must demonstrate why it has a compelling need to prevent these particular Plaintiffs from opting their children out of this particular instruction. Here, the District did not assert any compelling interest and cannot rely on a generalized interest in promoting tolerance to deny opt outs to the Plaintiffs. There are no allegations in the complaint or the motions to dismiss about bullying or intolerance of transgender children in the District or, more specifically, in Williams' classroom or by Plaintiffs' children.
The record will need to be developed for the District to show it has a compelling need—over the objections of the Parents: to expose six and seven year old children to the instruction about gender dysphoria and transgender transitioning; to tell the young children that their parents may be wrong about the student's gender; to cause confusion in a first-grader about how to determine that child's gender; to tell a young child that the teacher would never lie (implying that the child's parents may be lying); or to suggest to a child that he may be a transgender child.
The allegations in the complaint, if true, raise issues about whether any administrative inconvenience associated with providing notice and opt out rights could suffice as a justification for defendants' conduct. Similar administrative inconvenience results from notice and opt out rights already provided by the District to parents for other reasons, as set forth in ¶ 3 of the complaint.
The District argues that "the parental right to control the upbringing of a child must give way to a school's ability to control curriculum and the school environment." The District's argument that parents' fundamental rights must always yield to the school's interests is not accepted in this circuit. In Gruenke, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals held the opposite—the school, absent a compelling interest, must yield to the parents:
a school's policies might come into conflict with the fundamental right of parents to raise and nurture their child. But when such collisions occur, the primacy of the parents' authority must be recognized and should yield only where the school's action is tied to a compelling interest.
In Gruenke, the court further explained: "Because public school officials are state actors, they must not lose sight of the fact that their professional association ethical codes, as well as state statutes, must yield to the Constitution." …
There's a lot more (the decision is 56 pages long); you can read it here.
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This isn't a case for the courts. This is a case for 'I'll handle this.'
Came here to say that I can appreciate that this kind of pushy instruction about gender identity is probably not developmentally appropriate - thinking that I might have some common ground with some of the commenters.
First commenter: "The teacher should be murdered."
Guess not.
Since that's not what the first commenter said, your other claims to reasonableness are ... less than entirely credible.
Feel free to supply your own inference of what the first commenter meant by "handle."
I'm not obliged by standards of good faith to take veiled threats at face value.
"First commenter: “The teacher should be murdered.”
‘I’ll handle this.’ does not mean "murdered".
Long American tradition of tar and feathers being applied though.
Oh, well that's fine then!
Taking the comment literally, I tend to agree that the far better course for exercising your right to direct the upbringing of your child is just to take them out of a school if you don't like what they're teaching.
Lathering the rubes;
a disaffected law prof,
tossing meat to fans.
One less district you groomers are able to operate.
Normals 1
You People 0
This is a decision concerning a motion to dismiss, in which claims of even superstition-addled, culture-warring, disaffected parents are generally taken to be legitimate (without, so far, evidence, argument, or trial).
I would expect to observe that the defendants deny most of the assertions advanced by these culture war casualties against a first-rate school district.
Let's see how these claims develop in the reality-based world.
Crackpot fantasist teacher vs Rube parents.
Your hostility to anything unrepresentative of romantic fantasies is an wonder to behold. At least you’ve found an kindred spirit in this midwit teacher.
NPC Alert
This never happens, and if it did happen it's a good thing. /s
What compelling interest does the school have in EVER discussing sexuality with children? Biological processes are one thing. Sexuality is an entire different ballpark. If they ask counselors or teachers, fine.
Keep your goddamn filthy shit out of my children’s minds. Yeah, the internet is out there. The internet is not in a position of power over my children.
I will repeat for the slow witted; NO ADULT SHOULD EVER APPROACH MY CHILD TO DISCUSS SEXUALITY. NO ADULT SHOULD EVER DISCUSS SEXUALITY WITH A GROUP OF CHILDREN.
If you’re that fucking interested in grooming children, move to a predominantly Muslim country.
If a parent happens to have triplets, all of the same gender, the parent can't ever talk about sexuality with them as a group but instead must talk to each one individually?
That sounds like a rather extreme position.
The context makes it clear that talking to one's own children about sexuality is ok. You're not one for picking up on context, are you?
Any school that is actually teaching 1st graders about gender identity should be closed and burned to the ground. And the staff charged with child abuse. WTF are they teaching in education curriculum these days?
Burning such a school to the ground is likely not very green -- many components will probably release noxious pollutants into the air. Better to dismantle it using safe techniques and dispose of the waste in a environmentally responsible fashion.
Better yet, selling the building and land to a private school would actually recover some taxpayer money.
Yeah, I get it, parents almost can't have any rights with respect to subjects taught in a public school, but the insanity of teaching gender fluidity to first graders is manifest.
And I am not sure that parents don't have any rights--do they have the right to ensure that their kids aren't subjected to intrusive questions about politics or taught that they should be Republicans? Certainly, a parent has some rights there. So where do you draw that line?
The other problem is that teachers have the power and authority to control a classroom. Teaching those kinds of things naturally elicits pushback. Let's take an example, the idea of "White silence = violence." Would kids have a right to push back hard in class on this nonsense. Or what if the teacher were teaching Kristen Clarke's melanin nonsense?
Why limit it to just first graders? The subject is sexuality. Why does it need to be taught at all? Seriously.
If it so important to teach eighth graders about sexuality why stop at at the normal alphabet soup? Let’s introduce the concepts and reaffirm bestiality. Throw in a week on gerontophilia. Let’s not forget the attraction to pain—masochists and sadomasochists.
Not that kids need it nowadays, but biology is not sexuality. Teach the how, where, and what happens later.
Well, should we cover up the sexuality of the Romans in teaching about the Roman Empire? What about Victorianism? Sex is going to creep into many things---take All Quiet on the Western Front--the author describes Russian prisoners who don't masturbate anymore.
Or Andrew Marvell to his coy mistress . . . . Or Shakespeare, a black ram is tupping your white ewe.
The crucial thing is that teachers need to be adult about all of this. Unfortunately, that isn't always the case.
Somehow I got through college and had a very successful career as an engineer without ever having heard about the non-masturbating Russians until right now.
Schools don’t teach history very deeply anymore. The Romans may get a couple of days. No need to get into their sexuality.
I can see a course in high school, pretty much like there’s always been. But like others have said, you have to wait until it’s age appropriate. Elementary is certainly too young and early middle school probably is as well.
I do not understand the insistence of certain groups on sexualizing young children. Teach, do not indoctrinate.
"Somehow I got through college and had a very successful career as an engineer without ever having heard about the non-masturbating Russians until right now."
And your point is?
"I'm skeptical about claims of parents' constitutional right to opt out from parts of public school curricula"
I'm skeptical that any government that hadn't accepted such a right could have survived in America around the founding.
Depends on the subject and the point of the lesson, I suppose.
If you're teaching American history do you want to not mention slavery?
Absolutely teach slavery, but don't teach that white kids somehow owe some debt for it.
Yup. And teach that it happened all throughout history, and that the institution of slavery in Africa was well-developed long before Europeans came along and goosed demand.
Yeah, bothsidsing slavery with Africa, and ignoring the unique horrors of the American system is truly an objective and factual take, and not some white fragility bullshit at all!
You're adding context without adding nuance. Congrats on your propaganda.
Teaching beyond "American slavery was uniquely horrible" is propaganda?
It’s how selective he was. There is a story here, he found a false one to tell.
It's obviously part of an effort to minimise American slavery.
The point is that throughout most of history, pretty much everyone of any color who could afford slaves, had slaves.
Up until slavery was abolished by European enlightenment values, of course.
So yeah, minimizing American slavery.
With incomplete facts on slavery.
ISTM you are minimizing Brazilian slavery. Just squinting at the chart I previously linked, Brazil imported maybe ??30 times?? as many slaves as the U.S., didn't free them until 20 years after the end of the Civil Way, and still has substantial prejudice.
Slavery and prejudice are abhorrent, even outside America.
You really think the American system was “uniquely horrible”? That’s just denialism of the horrors that existed throughout history.
Disgusting.
Well, that seems a well researched take and not white fragility at all!
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/08/07/cancelling-john-marshall/#comment-8392556
"Of course there can be boundaries."
Working link (at least for me, the '?comments=true' is required).
FWIW, I think I'd rather be a slave in the antebellum south than, say, a Barbary Coast galley slave, or a Nazi slave laborer, just because a life expectancy measured in decades is better than one measured in months. Dunno about, say, the ones building the Pyramids. T
But trying to parse out degrees of badness in slavery seems hard ... they are all really bad. It's sort of like 'Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, which is worse?'.
My point is that once you play the game of minimizing Americas legacy of slavery with ‘everyone was doing it’ you need to play the game of comparing slavery regimes.
Dunno about Barbary Coast, but America upped the slavery game worldwide considerably. And if you are going to say ‘Africa also had slavery at the time’ you are being disingenuous if you don’t talk about that.
You are correct, the right thing to do is just say slavery was bad and we did it and not try for some light absolution whattabiutism bullshit.
"My point is that once you play the game of minimizing Americas legacy of slavery with ‘everyone was doing it’ you need to play the game of comparing slavery regimes."
No you don't. That's just nonsense. The point is to put American slavery into context.
It's misleading to say that the US had this uniquely horrible institution. I mean, it's lot like European slave-traders were out catching slaves on their own on a large scale. They bought them from African slave-traders, a market that existed for thousands of years.
It's more accurate to say that slavery was common throughout the world until the 19th century when European enlightenment values led to its large-scale abolition.
"America upped the slavery game worldwide considerably"
Can you elaborate? It's surely the instance most familiar to us, but are you accounting for Brazil, the Dutch East Indies, etc, etc?
FWIW, here is a chart titled "Estimated number of slaves taken from various regions of Africa during the transatlantic slave trade by destination from 1501 to 1866". The destination "Mainland North America" sees like a pretty small part of the big picture.
The Confederacy was evil, but don't minimize the evil of the slave trade elsewhere.
I don't even think you need to play the game of "our slavery was uniquely bad." American slavery is going to get more attention in American education simply BECAUSE it happened in America, whether it was objectively worse than slavery elsewhere or not. It's also probably relevant that it was recent enough that its shadow still has SOME impact on modern race relations here.
I do think its appropriate to teach world history as well, atrocities and all, and it's not a bad thing to allow those events to give American history some context. But I'm trying to picture living in Germany where some parents complain about how much the schools tend to focus on THEIR particular holocaust, and its subsequent effects on German life, when tribal mass murder has always been a thing.
"I don’t even think you need to play the game of “our slavery was uniquely bad.” American slavery is going to get more attention in American education simply BECAUSE it happened in America..."
Indeed so - and, IMHO, it's not just slavery, but Jim Crow, which persisted for a century after slavery ended. If the defeated Confederacy had implemented civil rights a la 1966 in 1866, I think we'd be having a different conversation today.
At the same time, I think it is important to be careful, even punctilious, with the facts.
It was America’s use and the…innovations in how to dehumanize these people as chattel. I go into detail in the post you helped me link.
I’ll allow extraordinary; there may be some similar examples. But not at the time.
"innovations in how to dehumanize these people"
Those weren't used in, say, Brazil? That may be so; can you share your sources? My limited knowledge doesn't show Brazilian slavery to be more benign than the Confederate version, but I'm willing to look at your evidence.
And we don’t even need to limit it to history. What’s your argument that the American system was worse than the current system in Mauritania, just to give one example?
Your very manic whattaboutism shows how weak you are. Sure, let’s teach about our history of slavery and then bring up Mauritania. That’s not obvious grasping at straws at all!
America was pretty bad at its founding. but also pretty exceptionally good at the same time. It’s still like that.
Your anger that your rosy picture is tarnished is kinda sad.
"Your very manic whattaboutism shows how weak you are. Sure, let’s teach about our history of slavery and then bring up Mauritania."
Whattaboutism? You claim that our system was uniquely horrible, or worse than any other system. I bring up one current system, and you can't tell me why that one system is worse than our previous system?
Dude, you like to whine, but you suck at bringing facts and evidence to the table.
Why did you rush to mention African slavery being a thing if not to at least partially absolve the US? That's whattaboutism, and bespeaks a brittle nationalism unable to confront the US's deal.
You bring up yet another system of slavery, in an attempt to one-up America's system. Which...do you want to teach that in the classroom alongside African slavery as well, in order that children not be exposed to America having some deep flaws in it's inception?
In historical context, America's system was uniquely bad. It wasn't just the individual experience of the enslaved, but what it did to generations and our culture.
To me, that shows how far we've come regarding the American Promise. To you, I guess it's an excuse to find examples where you'd rather be an American slave and then call it a day.
"Why did you rush to mention African slavery being a thing if not to at least partially absolve the US?"
Huh? How does African slavery being a thing absolve the US? That's just nonsensical.
I mentioned African slavery as being a thing because that's the system from which the New World acquired its slaves.
“What is whattaboutism? I had no idea!!!”
Good lord you are lame. Yeah, the African slaves came from Africa, sometimes already slaves there sometimes no.
Many were born slaves in America, or came from the Islands too.
Your partial story continues to bespeak a rather shaded view of the history here.
One thing I can tell you are quite ignorant about is the institution of American Slavery. It was vastly worse than slavery elsewhere and across history.
American slavery was unique because of how profoundly slaves outnumbered slaveholders, and how much the slaveholders’ way of life depended on their slaves.
This lead to a fear of revolt that created a system of terrorism and dehumanization. Black people were not just enslaved, they were broken, their names stripped from them, their language, their faith, their family. That was not something even visited on the slavs or any system in Islam. Teaching a slave to read was a crime, because keeping blacks in dehumanized ignorance was a requirement of the system.
Ad that doesn’t mention the forced breeding, often via forced rape. Another uniquely monstrous aspect of the American institution.
Fear of revolt lead to an affirmative policy of breaking up families and keeping black people terrorized.
And all of this in a country that considered itself a beacon of liberty among all mankind, a blindness and hypocrisy that must also be factored into American slavery’s towering awfulness throughout history.
You typing a bunch of unsourced, incorrect facts into the comment box smacks of desperation, Sarcastro.
"It was vastly worse than slavery elsewhere"
Can you share your sources that compare, say, life as a slave on a Mississippi cotton plantation with life as a slave on a Haitian or Brazilian sugar plantation? You may well be right that Brazilian slaves were a lot better off, but I'd appreciate seeing the sources.
The Islands were part of the system, though.
Sorry, that's a bit too cryptic for me - can you elaborate?
Wild ignorance on parade.
In the US, slaves never made up more than about 12% of the population, even at the peak in 1860 - about the same as now.
Some comparisons:
In 1860, 35-40% of Russia's population were serfs (worse than slaves).
In 1820, 20-25% of the Ottoman empire's population was slaves.
In the early Roman empire, Italy's population was about 35-40% slaves.
Brazil's slave population was pushing 20% before it ended in the 1880s.
Ancient Greece slavery was so pervasive, slaves significantly outnumbered freemen. Some records of the time show 5:1 or even 15:1! Most households owned slaves - In Socrates' Athens, the average household owned several slaves. Not owning a slave was seen as a sign of extreme poverty.
As for slave holders, about 8% of the US owned or controlled a slave (women didn't own their family slaves, but they certainly were 'slaveholders'). Versus 12% of the population that was slaves. That's not... "profoundly outnumbered". In fact, since even those that didn't own slaves could be counted on to put down slave rebellions, the slaves were the ones profoundly outnumbered in all but a few plantation heavy places in the South. And even those were roughly 1:1.
And again, comparing to other places, the 8% was on the low side, but hardly the lowest. Russia was less than 1%.
As for your "not even visited on the slavs or any system in Islam", again, pure ignorance. Slave owners, even back to the Egyptians, often renamed their slaves. The Romans did it as a matter of course, especially since most of their slaves were foreigners (often those same slavs you pretend didn't suffer). The Ottomans (among others) did it as a matter of policy, to deliberately separate a slave from their previous life. Language? Speak the master's, or get punished. Family? Ha! No culture treated slaves as families, or kept them together.
As for "vastly worse than elsewhere", that's absurd. US slaves had a much higher survival rate in North America than Brazil or Haiti. The Belgian Congo has a horror show that made the worst US excesses look light-handed.
And of course, we're ignoring the Aztecs or the cannibal tribes. Their slaves really didn't get treated well (unless you mean well-done).
Seriously, try actually learning something about the rest of the world before you start spouting comparisons based on whatever TV movie you last watched.
Who said anything about not teaching about the unique horrors of American slavery?
Why do you think TiP thought it was important to teach about slavery in Africa when teaching American history?
I said it was important to teach slavery in its context throughout world history, so we don't get people like Sarcastro engaging in denialism of most of history's atrocities.
And Sarcastro is proving my point.
So now it’s not whattaboutism, it’s context!
What context does this add, other than to minimize what America was doing for anyone who thinks slavery is the same the world over?
I'm definitely on your side that American anything should probably get more attention in the American education system because of its local relevance, but you're starting to lose me here.
I don't think German schools teaching kids about Genghis Khan's atrocities does anything to minimize the atrocities in their own not too distant past.
On the flip side, I don't think teaching about representative democracy in ancient Greece or principles of liberty that came out of the European enlightenment does anything to minimize our own local version of those things.
Sure we put our own unique wrinkles on good things and bad things, and learning about all of it is especially important in educating American kids, but there's no reason to shy away from the truths of world history, even when comparing and contrasting their history with our own. Making us look less uniquely horrible isn't a reasonable goal in and of itself.
I can’t disagree with your flips side - but if you follow it up, we are talking about what to teach in US history courses.
Depends on how you discuss its significance. The devil is in the details.
Would you accept an classroom characterization of slavery as an ethical improvement on indentured servitude comparing rates of starvation and early deaths to make the point? Would you accept an favorable comparison of slave nutrition and health to that of contemporary lower class free whites large numbers of whom were malnourished and riddled with nutrition deficiency related diseases? Would you accept comparisons of the pre-war survival of slaves to the post war decimation of the same population from starvation and starvation related disease or would you go into full denial mode and challenge the veracity of any such claims not because they are untrue but because you dislike their capacity to reduce the moral clarity (and thus mobilization capacity) of your preferred description of the institution.
The capacity of people and gatekeeper institutions to lie, exaggerate, prevaricate or simply dictate certain historical details to be of no significance is all about editorial control not facts. Parents should not be required or expected to hand over this responsibility to people they have no good reason to trust and who are not objectively trustworthy.
All your suggested arguments really make the US of those periods sound like an horrific shit-hole, to be honest.
So liberty doesn’t matter if you find some utilitarian metric to point to?
How morally derelict.
Who said anything about "liberty doesn't matter"? Teaching critical thinking includes teaching that bad things sometimes have good upsides and vice versa. Then you have the discussion of why slavery isn't bad because slaves were mistreated, or that slaves aren't paid - slavery is wrong even if slaves are treated well and paid in more than room & board.
Then you can also have great discussions about slave revolts and the awful vengeance commonly wreaked on slavers, their families, and other whites who happened to be around. Want to really shake things up? Start thinking about the horrific trauma of being a slaver's child and what growing up seeing such inhuman treatment of other humans would do to your developing psyche.
That all sounds incredible. Like, I’m envious of the hypothetical history class wherein you were the teacher.
But such philosophical issues do not appear to be the universe Curlie seemed to be contemplating. It looks a lot more like he was making a case that American slavery wasn’t as bad as we say.
Just to clarify, who doesn't want to "mention slavery"?
Brett: "How can there be a constitutional right to abortion? There's nothing explicitly about that in the constitution."
Also Brett: "Of course there's a constitutional right to opt out of a portion of the public school curriculum while still attending public school."
Funny how a while back Teachers and their Unions were crying about Parents not getting involved in their children's education. Now, when they get involved, they don't want them to be involved.
An article by a college teacher and parent explains this pretty well:
"when teachers encourage parents to be more involved, what they often mean is that they want parents to help them, specifically by getting our children to obey school rules and make their jobs easier."
They're not looking for feedback on how the kid should be taught, what values should be inculcated, etc. They don't want parents having input into pedagogy or anything like that.
Well, clearly this is something said by a bitter clinger Christian missionary, right? Hey Rev, where are you? Why aren't you rushing to call this teacher out forcing her belief on impressionable 7 year olds?
Oh, right.
I am not rushing in because not much has been established concerning this teacher, this teacher's conduct, or anything involving the school district. So far, a bunch of loud, superstitious, activist parents have advanced some claims. Until the reputable school district responds with more than a motion to dismiss, I am disinclined to pay much attention to this one.
To be fair, I am not motivated to lather a bunch of bigoted right-wingers with partisan-hacked red meat.
Are you for real? I mean seriously, are you?
I am your better, particularly with respect to understanding legal proceedings and the reality-based world, but also in general.
So is heterosexuality a gender identity teaching?
There should be no sexual teaching of first graders
Bevis, in theory I agree with you. In practice, I'm not sure that's possible. What is a teacher supposed to say in response to a child's question about whether she's married? Or what the teacher did over the weekend? Children innocently ask such questions all the time. In fact, they ask such questions more often than adults because they've not yet been socialized to not ask personal questions. The subjects of gender and sexuality are bound to come up, so the real question is how does the teacher respond when they do.
I don't think first graders need a formal curriculum on gender and sexuality. By the same token, the best way to de-mystify something is to face the subject head-on when asked. A child who discovers that his favorite teacher has a same sex partner will likely not consider it any big deal so long as the adults around him aren't making it into a big deal.
Say “yes I am” or “no I’m not”
If someone asks about the weekend (and I can’t imagine first grade me asking Mrs Hornbuckle about her weekend) a general answer is fine. “I went out with my sweetie” is fine. You don’t have to describe the swinger’s club or the gay orgy or whatever.
The fact that a significant number of people believe that graphic sexual topics should be introduced in elementary school shocks me. What the hell is wrong with people?
Fine, so your first grade self asks Mrs. Hornbuckle, "Do you have a husband" when in fact she has a wife. Or, "Mrs. Hornbuckle, Jeremy told me he has two dads." You can bob and weave so much, but at some point the only way to evade the issue will be to outright lie.
And the other question is why should gay people be forced to bob and weave anyway. Ideally, being gay should be viewed as being left handed: It's a data point, but not one anyone cares about. So the same-sex-married teacher can simply say, "No, I have a wife," with no more baggage attached to it than if she had a husband. Kids will not think it's a big deal if those around them aren't making it a big deal.
Mrs H - the actual name of my actual teacher - could simply say “I’m married”. Why should a teacher be sharing intimate details of their personal life?
Gay and straight people should bob and weave when they discuss their personal life with their students. Or the neighbor kids for that matter. “I love the way my spouse sucks dick” just doesn’t need to be shared. Just keep the intimate part to yourself.
This eggshells nonsense that many are insisting teachers maintain is not practical in unstilted real-world interaction.
Of course there can be boundaries. But it's crazy how many insist those boundaries be full-on puritanism.
Actually, it's not crazy. That's how you fearmonger. It's crazy how many are into it, though.
“This eggshells nonsense that many are insisting teachers maintain is not practical in unstilted real-world interaction.”
Funny, they seemed to do it for most of an century or more before the rise of fashionable sexuality. For the life of me I don’t recall an single elementary school teacher discussing their sexual proclivities with the students. Such puritanical restraint they showed.
Except not it wasn’t. You just didn’t hear about it because the right wasn’t telling you to be mad about it yet.
Remember the horror of condoms in school turning us all into sex freaks? Same bullshit, different decade.
"Remember the horror of condoms in school turning us all into sex freaks? "
Gotta ask ... when/where was that?
I remember in 10th grade phys ed when the teacher used a banana to demonstrate proper application of a condom.
There was a big debate about sex ed and opting out in the late 80s early 90s.
I was very young then, but I learned about it in law school, actually.
It is far, far, far more appropriate for parents to be teaching their children about sex than schools - especially government schools. That's the whole problem (yes, including shitty parents who didn't teach their children about sex and let them grow up ignorant).
I’m not sure I agree, tk.
For one thing, the principles that make universal education in general good very much apply to understanding sex not biologically and socially.
Again, limits. But not a total ban.
For another, we had this debate and the anti sex ed folks lost. And the ills they pointed to did not manifest,
“the ills they pointed to did not manifest”
Excellent, now that the “don’t do it and here’s how” model has been successful in reducing STDs, teen pregnancies, and generally improving the moral climate, let’s extend the same model of education to underage drinking, vaping, motorcycle riding, and whatever else it is that kids are going to “do anyway.”
"“don’t do it and here’s how”"
Heh. I can still recall the parental birds-n-bees talk from my father, which consisted in its entirety of 'Son, don't, and if you do, use a rubber'.
(In my parent's defense, the bookshelf had copies of both Kinsey and 'Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex (but were afraid to ask)', so a detailed talk wasn't really needed)
Fuck off and goodbye.
You're better than this. Nobody is talking about teaching "graphic sexual topics." The problem is that right wing culture warriors think that any mention of sexual orientation is inherently graphic if it's not heterosexuality. Look at the routine complaints about seeing gay families in passing in cartoons or kids' stories.
Ironically, the poster above ranting about this — Jazzizhep — is okay with "graphic sexual topics." It's (so called) gender identity he objects to. ("What compelling interest does the school have in EVER discussing sexuality with children? Biological processes are one thing. Sexuality is an entire different ballpark.")
When I went to school, sex ed started in 5th grade, and was very very cursory. IIRC, we just got diagrams of the anatomy. (Of course, back then gender identity didn't exist and sexual orientation barely did.) I don't see any need to cover anything in detail before that, either. But at the same time I don't think we need laws telling people not to mention them.
What is a teacher supposed to say in response to a child’s question about whether she’s married? Or what the teacher did over the weekend?
How about "Yes, I am married"? 'I want sailing/shopping/had a nice dinner with friends and family"? or even 'A teacher's personal life is her private matter and not a proper subject of discussion with students"?
Any teacher who is incapable of answering simple questions like that without getting into a sermon about gender identity has no business teaching first graders.
"no business teaching first graders"
or 3rd graders or 4th or 5th or ...
You've used this argument before Krychek, and none of the commonsense answers seem to suit you. So, let's try another tack.
Instead of being gay, let's say the teacher in question is a church-going Christian. Then ask the same questions. Can a teacher respond that she went to church over the weekend, if asked about her weekend activities? If asked why, can she respond how she believes in Jesus Christ?
The question of religion and God is bound to come up, so how does the first grade teacher respond? What would you find appropriate? Should the teacher say "I can't tell you about that, you need to ask your parents"? Can the teacher have a 30 minute long teaching session about the benefits of Jesus Christ, and how he's come to save your souls, oh, and by the way don't tell your parents I told you this"? Or would you object heavily if your 6 year old child were forced to listen to this type of thing in public school, and demand the teacher stop?
So, I'll repeat. What is "appropriate" for a teacher to say, in regards to religion, in a first grade class? Can she not even say she goes to church, or believes in Jesus Christ, when directly asked? Should she deflect and demur?
And whatever you think is appropriate there...is likely appropriate in regards to a discussion about sexuality.
No, because if transgender ideology is taken at face value, it has nothing to do with sexuality.
"So is heterosexuality a gender identity teaching?"
Huh? Heterosexuality is not a gender identity.
No reason to teach about sex to little kids.
I think there is probably a point, developmentally speaking, before which kids probably can't quite grasp the notion of "gender identity" or "gender as a performance." Telling boys that they might be girls, or vice versa, at a point in their lives when they're still trying to figure out the difference, is probably not helpful.
I don't think teachers should be enforcing gender stereotypes, so I agree with this teacher at least insofar as she was trying to convey to students that they could dress themselves and wear their hair in whatever way that they like. But the rest of this... whew. That's too far for me.
This is, of course, what "Don't say gay" laws are about. It's not about saying gay.
This is, of course, how those laws were drafted, but not at all how they're being applied, or ever were intended to be applied.
We have actual experience now in Florida that shows what that law was supposed to do. The time for disingenuous apologia is over. You're now just a liar.
Well, you're an asshole. What "experience" do you think makes me a liar?
You haven’t heard the stories out of Florida?
Facts and evidence please.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/05/19/gay-florida-teacher-desantis-lgbtq/
Wasn't fired, much less prosecuted - quit because she felt 'unwelcome' and oh yeah - wanted to have a baby and couldn't afford the off time and the school system wouldn't give her more for free.
https://nbc-2.com/news/local/2022/05/03/cape-coral-art-teacher-fired-for-discussing-lgbtq-topics/
An art teacher claims to have been fired – actually, her probationary contract was not upgraded to a permanent hire – after she held a discussion of her pansexuality with some students, and encouraged them to draw pride flags, in violation of instructions from the school administration not to do so.
I can’t find a single more recent mention of how this turned out since it occurred in early May, so her lawsuit threats do not seem to have amounted to much yet.
https://www.teenvogue.com/story/dont-say-gay-firing-pansexual
Same case as above.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-dad-sues-palm-beach-school-after-teacher-allegedly-posted-gay-pride-flags-proselytized-students
This is a lawsuit by a parent against a school for moving his kid out of the Computer Science track and into an art track after he complained that the teacher was discussing and extolling the gay lifestyle.
What the hell does this have to do with the Florida law? It's a private lawsuit for retaliation and class placement.
Teacher fired after explaining her sexuality. Teacher sued for advocating homosexuality. Teacher fired after encouraging students to express their sexuality. WP one behind a paywall.
It looks like two of these stories are about the same teacher.
"Actual experience"... in what? That people are being prosecuted for saying "gay", like the leftists claimed? I'd like a cite for that, please.
In fact, I'd like to see any of your citations that anyone is being abusively prosecuted in Florida for violating "those laws" in ways other than the way they were drafted, as you claim is happening.
The learned judge lost me right about here:
I suspect that is just awkward wording, and that she was trying to say just that it's not the school's business to do that.
Anyway, this is, ISTM, an out-of-control teacher.
If the allegations are true, it's an out-of-control school *district.* But an isolated instance, I'm sure.
Has anyone read the answer, or does every comment here rely entirely on the claims of a few disaffected parents and the judgment of a mediocre judge (reached the court riding Catholic connections) who cites the Bible in a decision ostensibly meant for reasoning adults?
This is just a decision concerning a motion to dismiss. No claim or assertion has been tested.
I'd say the factual issues should be up to a jury to decide, what do you say?
Though, alas, being from Florida, the jurors would doubtless be "clingers."
Prof. Volokh seems to believe the facts have already been established.
"learned judge lost me right about here"
I know you are a godless european but this is long standing American law.
"Drawing on “enduring American tradition,” we have long recognized the rights of parents to direct “the religious upbringing” of their children. Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U. S. 205, 213–214, 232 (1972)" [cited in Espinoza v. Montana Department of Revenue 591 U.S. ___ (2020)]
So I know of one school that doesn’t broach the topics until 3rd-4th grade after an ‘incident’ a few years previous in the Kindergarten classroom. One of the boys comes in and during the am session executes the ‘Kindergarten Cop’ maneuver, telling the teacher (who is retiring after one more year) and the rest of the class that: “boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina.” The teacher bless her tried to keep it together at that point trying to suppress laughter and shock… but failed. So 15 5 year olds see the schools newest little educator stand up on the “power chair” in the corner (gotta call it power chair so as to not make kids feel bad for getting the ol sit in the corner routine) and he proceeds to whip it out to show everyone that he has a penis.
The teacher fainted.
While the teacher was out cold, nearly all the other kids are taking off articles of clothing below the waist to compare notes. It wasn’t until the kid on the power chair started going to other classrooms with his pants half on/half off “See? I have a peeeeeenis” that they had to wake the teacher and begin to wrangle a bunch of Kindergartners who by now are giggling like mad and actively think this is a fun game being chased like this! The two 1st grade teachers that checked on the Kindergarten teacher had started rounding up the lil folks… when they noticed their own students had started to file into the hallway to see what was up. Thankfully these 1st graders just thought the newest scholars were being very funny instead of inspiring a day of near pants-less freedom from gripping the K-3 wing of the school. The Kindergarten teacher took early retirement at the end of the year.
This is definitely a story that happened nowhere.
Yeah, I really don't think people faint in real life when weird things happen. MAYBE some people have this kind of reaction to the sight of severe trauma, like someone spurting blood or what have you. But that whole fanning yourself and then possibly passing out from the vapors, like you're in a Marx Brothers movie, just isn't a real thing.
While the gender dysphoria teaching bothers me I have far more problems with the claim of "don't talk with your parents about this". IMO, that should be grounds for immediate dismissal without appeal regardless of the topic under discussion, and even regardless of the age of the student. No non-parent should ever feel like they have the authority to make that claim to a child without consequence.
Yup. In addition, children have a first amendment right to discuss what they learn in school with their parents. I wonder if a parent whose kid has been given this instruction by a state actor in a position of authority can get an injunction.
" IMO, that should be grounds for immediate dismissal without appeal "
You mean, after it has been established that it occurred, right? Which is not close to what has developed in this context.
There have been several lawsuits about this attempt to wall parents off from their own children.
Suing is fine but the real remedy is to vote out the school board and purge the administrators, first firing this teacher of course.
Mt. Lebanon is a first-rate school district. Most school districts in Pennsylvania, particularly in the backwater stretches, aren't fit to sharpen Mt. Lebanon's pencils.
” From the court’s discussion of the facts: ”
What facts? The court is considering a motion to dismiss. How much of what the court discusses has been admitted or proven as fact? Has an answer been filed?
When trying to rile hayseeds and gay-bashers, I guess a reference to “facts” in this context can be seen as useful. At a legal blog, though, that’s an ouch.
For purposes of a Rule 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss, the facts are what is pleaded in the complaint, taken as true with inferences drawn in favor of the pleader.
Some genuinely impressive posturing going on here, with a thoroughly reactionary attitude to the teaching of sex and sexuality, no interest at all in what if anything is being taught. That's how you whip up a good scare.
The allegations, *if true,* are very serious indeed. Even Kirkland is focusing on the unproven nature of the allegations, rather than saying “so what if they're true.”
He’s showing uncommon restraint and yet not so uncommon as to avoid concluding that both the complaint (presumably) and the reporting on it were the product of a desire to rile up gay bashers and hayseeds. It will be fascinating to learn the real facts underlying a complaint of this sort if the claimed facts are not reasonably accurate. Equally interesting will be learning how such detailed classroom behavior was communicated to the parents if not through an first grader and how an first grader would have conjured such things on their own. It’s not like first graders are as good at imagining things as are FBI agents filing records with FISA courts.
Hopefully they'll look at stuff like emails, if any, or recordings of school board meetings, if any, to at least figure out what the school district did. If it's only the word of a couple six-year-olds, without such supporting evidence of the school district's complicity (which is what's alleged), then I doubt a jury would buy it.
Oh yes BURN THE SCHOOL DOWN* (*if true) TAR AND FEATHERS* (*if true.) You can tell how interested they are in the truth by the way it’s foregrounded.
"{[P]arents, not schools, have the primary responsibility to inculcate moral standards, religious beliefs, and elements of good citizenship in their children. "
Some major insurrection going on there - - - - - - - - - - - -
Would religious parents who believe fervently in young earth creationism be entitled to sue in federal court demanding that the school district teach all its children their chosen dogma because to do otherwise would undermine their parental rights?
No, but conceivably they might be able to sue to pull their kids out of science classes on the topic.
So women do not have a right to an abortion (even if they need it for medical reasons) because the Constitutions is silent about abortion, but parents have rights even though the Constitution is silent about that? Methinks Republicans are just making it up as they go to get the results they want.
Well, 9th amendment:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
This means that not being mentioned isn't proof that a right doesn't exist. (Being mentioned, though, IS proof it exists.) It still leaves you with the necessity to prove the right existed in some other way.
They overturned Roe, not because it's unmentioned, but because there was affirmative evidence from the era of the ratification of the Constitution that it wasn't considered a right.
If the courts treat parental rights the opposite way, it's because you CAN find evidence that they were regarded as having those rights, from the relevant era. And, indeed, children were damned near chattels at the time of the founding. But not the government's chattels. That's more of a modern idea, which I don't think has even penetrated much beyond the government itself.