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From Prof. Michael McConnell (Stanford) on the Dormant Commerce Clause
Prof. McConnell is one of the top constitutional law scholars in the country, and I was delighted that he passed along this item on National Pork Producers Council v. Ross. (Disclosure: He participated in drafting the U.S. Chamber of Commerce amicus brief in the case, but the views expressed here are his own, not those of the Chamber.)
National Pork Producers Council v. Ross may be one of the most consequential cases of the Term, and I don't just mean for the price of pork chops. A few states, most importantly California, are such large markets that—if the Supreme Court does not intervene—they can impose their notions of proper standards of production on every other state in the Union, at little cost to themselves. Because nationwide producers often cannot segment their markets, producers will be forced to follow California rules for the whole country, or face the crippling consequence of exclusion from the California market.
Add to this the fact that these large states—California, Texas, New York—are also one-party states, whose views on social policy are often at one or another extreme. More moderate Americans in other states will be governed by laws they would not vote for, if they had a chance. This is contrary to the democratic postulates of our federal system.
Californians consume 13 percent of all pork produced in the United States, but California farmers produce almost none of it (0.13 percent of breeding pigs, to be exact). But California voters have strong views on the ethical treatment of pigs, at least when other people pay the cost. In 2018, California voters passed Proposition 12, which allows the sale in California only of pork produced under specified conditions far more costly than currently are practiced anywhere else. California regulators will roam the land inspecting farms in other states to enforce the law.
For Californians, this was cheap and easy virtue signaling. Almost no California farmers are affected, yet prices will go up everywhere.
The California law at issue in National Pork Producers is a grave threat to our system of interstate federalism, where the people of each state have authority to govern conduct that takes place or produces effects within their own borders, but not elsewhere. This is in contrast to the international system, where countries are free to use their economic power—call it "sanctions"—to promote their social and geopolitical objectives. When states entered the Union, however, they gave up their power to treat other states as foreigners, in favor of a constitutionalized common market. States cannot punish conduct in other states, and they cannot bar entry or importation of people or products based on conduct that occurred in other states, except when the product will have a material effect within the state.
If a pork producer used meat-packing practices that created a danger of trichinosis, California could prohibit its passage across state lines into the state. But where, as in this case, the product is indistinguishable in terms of safety and quality from any other pork, the law should be recognized for what it is: an attempt at extraterritorial regulation in violation of the Commerce Clause.
This will not stop with pork. Once California is green-lighted to use its monopsony power to pressure businesses all over the country to comply with Californian social preferences, there will be no end to it. Most obviously, California will prohibit imports from companies that do not comply with its version of ESG regulations. Next up will be companies that exceed California carbon emission targets. Why not also companies in states that ban abortions? The banned products from such laws would not have any material effects in California; the laws simply export California regulatory preferences to people who have no way to vote on them.
And it will not just be California. No doubt Texas will get into the act. Why not bar importation of products from companies with closed shops? Or companies that include abortions in their health-care packages? Or from states that bar Texas products on social grounds? This is precisely the sort of interstate economic warfare that the founders attempted to avoid by placing all power over imports across state lines in the national government.
To be sure, the Commerce Clause is by its terms a grant of power to Congress and not a restriction on the power of the States. This has made textualist judges leery of recognizing its "negative" implications. But the original understanding was that the Commerce Power was exclusive in the federal government, subject only to the police power of the states to regulate with respect to their own citizens' health, safety, and welfare. Willson v. Black Bird Creek Marsh Co., 27 U.S. (2 Pet.) 245 (1829). As with many of the other clauses in Article I, Section 8, the grant of power to Congress entailed the denial of that power to the states.
At the Constitutional Convention, virtually every reference to the Commerce Power pertained to its preemptive effect on what Madison called the states' "rival, conflicting and angry regulations." 3 Farrand 547. Before the Constitution, each state treated the commerce of other states as if it were foreign, subject to retaliatory and protectionist restrictions. Madison explained that these interferences with commerce from other states arose "from the want of Genl. Government over commerce." 2 Farrand 441. Madison thus explained that the interstate commerce clause was not just an empowerment of Congress but "was intended as a negative and preventive provision against injustice among the states themselves." 3 Farrand 478. It historically inaccurate to think that the Commerce Clause is merely a grant of regulatory power to Congress. The states lost their plenary power to bar commerce across their borders, retaining only the police power to protect their own internal health, welfare, and safety.
If we want a change in nationwide rules for pork production, it is Congress's job to make them. One state cannot be permitted to rule them all.
There is no need for the Supreme Court to revive the nebulous balancing tests of yesteryear, such as Pike v. Bruce Church, Inc., 397 U.S. 137 (1970), which is much discussed in the briefs. This is a case for a categorical rule: states cannot bar the movement of commerce across state lines except for the police power purposes of protecting their own residents' health, welfare, and safety. It is no business of a state to force ethical practices on businesses in other states. Proposition 12 is a regulation of interstate commerce, not justified by the police power. If this law is upheld, we will soon see an economic war where big states will lord it over small states, destroying the constitutional common market the founders thought they created.
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I 100% disagree with Prof. McConnell and point to his own statement of, "The states lost their plenary power to bar commerce across their borders, retaining only the police power to protect their own internal health, welfare, and safety."
ACROSS their borders is the key element and CA is NOT doing anything across their border.
The CA law only concerns actions within the state.
Additionally, "More moderate Americans in other states will be governed by laws they would not vote for, if they had a chance. This is contrary to the democratic postulates of our federal system."
Oh, so only laws created by 'moderate' Americans are now valid?
And speaking of 'our federal system,' "As a matter of constitutional history, the courts have consistently favored state sovereignty over giving equal force to the laws of other states. Respecting state sovereignty means that California should be free to regulate in-state transactions to protect the health, welfare, and morals of Californians, even if that means California is not respecting Missouri’s policy choices. Put differently, Missouri has no power to tell California what animal welfare or environmental standards should be acceptable for Californian consumers. State sovereignty includes the power to enact legislation that rejects the policy choices made by other states."
From the egg case with the same circumstances: https://www.thefacultylounge.org/2018/09/missouri-v-california-chickens-and-progressive-state-sovereignty-before-the-supreme-court.html
“But no, the big populous states aren’t dictating to the smaller states”.
That comes up every time the electoral college comes up. And this is why ultimately you can’t change it.
California is an extremist state with extremist policies and politicians. They’re losing population. I personally like to visit the place, but no way I’d want to live there. And a lot of people are voting with their feet in that direction as well. Why should they be permitted to foist their extremism on the rest of us.
California has its issues, but that is a very low bar for extremist you have there. Or yiu are generalizing based in anecdotes again.
Try to build something out there and tell me how it goes.
Rent a car at the airport and make sure to read the warning that internal combustion engines cause cancer.
So, silliness, which you have decided means they particularly don’t get to pass certain regs because they have passed your invisible line.
When the French decide that northern Africa has less political dysfunction than your state, you just might have an extremist government.
California has a law prohibiting publicly funded travel from there to various states on its you-have a-naughty-public-policy list. Iowa and NC are the 1 & 2 hog producers. Both are on the naughty/travel ban list. How will California inspect farms in the naughty states?
Trying building something in California? You mean, like a technology company???
No, I mean housing. Places for people to live.
Or, you know, high speed rail. They spent $2B and got nothing because of their extremist rules.
Housing seems quite popular in California. How many million dollar properties are there?
More on a ten-block span than there are in the entirety of some of the conservative dreamscape states, which tend to be as parasitic and ignorant as they are small and empty these days.
You have a point about high speed rail. I initially supported it, but I have become increasingly skeptical.
You are definitely right that California has a problem when it comes to building enough housing too.
The policy is dumb, but so is McConnell’s argument. If tailoring pork production for California markets results in higher costs then any “nationwide producer” that attempts to raise prices nationwide to compensate can be undercut by some producer that declines to sell its products in California. If cartel effects or other market manipulation nonetheless deprives you of the opportunity to buy non-California-compliant pork it won’t be California forcing that on you, but your own failure to bring government to heel.
We'd prefer you didn't even visit.
re: "The CA law only concerns actions within the state."
Not according to the CA regulators who are charged with enforcing that law. They have made it quite clear that they think their mandate includes regulating actions well outside of California.
Making a falsehood clear doesn't change the fact that it is a falsehood.
Are non-CA producers forced to sell pork in CA? No? Are non-CA producers treated differently from CA producers? No? Then there's no issue. I am not sure that CA's law is wise, but that's a separate issue.
Does California have any right to sent it’s inspectors to other states? That’s what they intend to do. They’ve got no jurisdiction to do it, and the other states and producers in those states should say no.
This amounts to a tax on people - mostly midwesterners - without representation.
No, and producers have every right to refuse them access. And CA likewise has every right to stop producers from selling in CA if they deny them access.
Zoom out a level. The FDA claims the right to inspect any facility anywhere in the world that produces drugs and medical devices meant for the U.S. market. If you defy them on U.S. soil they can get physical and block access to your facility until you submit. Overseas you can tell them "go away", as allowed by local law, and all they can do is put you on a blacklist. No selling to the US. Sell all you want to Africa. (In reality there is some weighing of political and market power before a death sentence is imposed.)
As a non-California consumer I may have access to cheaper pork if some farms tell California to go to hell. Same production, less demand. I only pay more if all the big players cave.
"As a non-California consumer I may have access to cheaper pork if some farms tell California to go to hell. Same production, less demand. I only pay more if all the big players cave."
Actually, because their market shrinks, producer's that tell California to go to hell, their economies of scale are negatively impacted and they may have to raise prices even if it's not by as much as it is for producers that cave to the California requirements.
Unlikely. The US is large enough that we've long since exceeded the point of diminishing returns in terms of economies of scale for agricultural products. Dropping California would basically have no effect in that area.
Yes, CA has the right to send its inspectors anywhere it wants, subject to the fact that have outside California no more right than anyone else to trespass or otherwise interfere with commerce.
It seems to me that the repeated references to “monopsony” power and the specter of states imposing “national” regulations need to be expunged, for this argument to cohere properly. It shouldn’t be the case that a state without monopsony power would be permitted, under the Dormant Commerce Clause, to impose a regulation like California’s.
I also think the distinction between the importation of products that could have a “material effect” within a state and products that – McConnell asserts – would not, is the sort of distinction that courts shouldn’t be making. Doesn’t that seem like a “rational basis” kind of determination, ordinarily left to legislatures? And why wouldn’t moral considerations be relevant to the analysis? What permits the judiciary to decide which “effects” within a state are properly “material,” for these purposes?
I’m sorry, but an argument that leans heavily into exaggerated conflations and buries premises is one that raises red flags. That’s not to say that the Court won’t find it persuasive; I am absolutely certain that it will. But such is the state of our law, these days. Incoherent arguments to impose conservative policy.
So, California should be regulating industries that basically don’t exist in their state? Saying that they shouldn’t is a conservative policy? Ridiculous.
If CA were attempting to compel pork producers to adopt these measures country-wide via regulation, then that would clearly be a violation. But they're not.
Of course that’s what they’re doing. Otherwise what’s the point? When you send state inspectors in, that’s regulating.
Except the inspectors will only be reviewing producers that opt in to sell in California. If they want to avoid the inspectors, they can simply . . . not sell in California. If you want to play in California, you can follow California's rules - simple.
Then California gets no pork.
And several thousand midwesterners lose their jobs. But who gives a shit about flyover people? Certainly not Gavin Newsome. Do they bathe? What language do they speak?
Ok, we get it, you don't like California. How original. But what does that have to do with what is legal? If California wants to accept the trade-off of more animal welfare and less pork, why shouldn't it get to make that choice? If having a federalist system means anything, they certainly have that right.
No, you don’t get it at all. My wife and I regularly vacation in California. All over. We love the state.
That doesn’t mean that their extremist politicians get to dictate policy to the rest of the country.
And progressives like Newsome don’t care a lick about people in, say, Iowa. The elites and the left look around and say “where is all this populism coming from?!?!” It’s coming from shit like this.
There should be a limiting factor of some point.
But your argument leans too hard on specific horror at California.
I think you are just going to have to become accustomed to ever-larger portions of the nation and our population that are not -- and mostly do not like -- poorly educated, roundly bigoted, science-disdaining, conservative culture war casualties.
Replacement will easy any pain this causes.
I mean, *should* the governor of California really care about the people of Iowa, more so than the interests of his own constituents? Do you really think the governor of Iowa asks himself what the people of California want before signing a bill? Why should the inverse be true?
Regardless, this law was passed by ballot measure, not "extremist politicians." And the only thing it dictates to the rest of the country is what they can sell IN CALIFORNIA.
Nah. Fuck ‘em. If they lose their jobs over a bullshit law that does nothing for California that’s their tough luck. It’s not like a progressive governor should have any yucky empathy. That’s for losers.
"Then California gets no pork."
Are you sure your name isn't butthead?
And Texas can send in cops to check agricultural operations in California to ensure that every worker is here legally, right? Otherwise keep your produce, we’ll just buy more from Mexico.
The analogy works only if the illegals affect the produce in some way.
I'm sure they do, or else why bother hiring them? Perhaps you mean "only if their being illegals" affects the produce?
re: "If CA were attempting to compel pork producers to adopt these measures country-wide via regulation"
That is precisely what the CA regulators have openly said that they are attempting to do.
If you'd like to engage with what I actually said, please feel free.
You said that if California loses the decision that it will be done to “impose conservative policy”. No thought at all that perhaps that’s the correct decision.
Why should he think idiocy?
You seem awfully unfamiliar with the dormant commerce clause. Laws that discriminate against interstate commerce either facially, in purpose, or in effect, are subject to strict scrutiny. That's been the law for a century. The "material effect" comes into play because states can occasionally satisfy strict scrutiny. (It's not quite the same as First Amendment strict scrutiny in that you don't need a compelling governmental interest, you just need a legitimate one that can't be served in a non-discriminatory way.)
To what "discrimination" do you refer?
“It seems to me that the repeated references to “monopsony” power and the specter of states imposing “national” regulations need to be expunged, for this argument to cohere properly. It shouldn’t be the case that a state without monopsony power would be permitted, under the Dormant Commerce Clause, to impose a regulation like California’s.”
I do not see any implication that without monopsony power, such a regulation would be permitted, so I think you are misreading that. Rather, this line of argument is just pointing to bad effects and arguing that allowing this would be bad policy. As I touched on below, I agree that the question of whether a policy is good or bad is irrelevant to the question of whether that policy is required or permitted under the Constitution. The only exception is to the extent that this inquiry helps to explain the reasoning, justification, and ultimately the original meaning behind the text, it is relevant background.
Of course, asking whether a policy is good or bad is also worthwhile in its own right, and it further seems to be accepted as a compelling argument, even among lawyers, concerning the constitutionality of a policy even though I don’t agree with that. To be clear, the policy being evaluated here is NOT California’s pork regulations, but the policy of permitting states to enact such burdens on interstate commerce.
"This will not stop with pork. Once California is green-lighted to use its monopsony power to pressure businesses all over the country to comply with Californian social preferences, there will be no end to it."
Seriously? This didn't start with pork. Does he realize that? California has been pulling this stunt in multiple industries for years now.
Anyway, what strikes me as curious is why a pork producer can't just decide, to hell with it, they're not selling pork in California, and suddenly they're much cheaper than the producers who do sell in California. What's preventing this obvious result? It seems almost inevitable that at least some pork producers would do this. Regional brands would certainly be able to do this, even if you wouldn't expect big national brands to.
Doesn't effect me, I deal directly with a friend who raises free range pigs for his own consumption. His costs don't have anything to do with the latest stupidity in California.
“Seriously? This didn’t start with pork. Does he realize that? California has been pulling this stunt in multiple industries for years now.”
Agree!
And CA has succeeded too - and yet somehow our nation hasn't crumbled.
It hasn't finished crumbling, anyway. Doesn't mean they're not doing substantial damage by driving up costs for the rest of the nation that doesn't share their obsessions.
But my main question is, why does this succeed? Basic economics says that at least some suppliers would decide to ignore the California market, which IS only 13% of the pork market, and they'd instantly be lower cost than any supplier that complied with the California regs. Being a substantially lower cost supplier for 87% of the market is pretty big, so why wouldn't this happen?
Is there some regulatory/monopoly obstacle to the market reacting? Are major grocery chains refusing to carry pork that doesn't comply, in order to simplify their inventory? What's the mechanism preventing the market from responding?
Because it's not just CA.
As in the egg case I referenced above, Mass. set the same regs as CA for egg sales.
So in this case, we can assume that other Lib-woke-commie states will apply the same rules as CA.
Same with car standards.
So, basically, you can anticipate a handful of states copying California, which renders inventory just too difficult for national distributors unless they purchase exclusively from producers that obey California regulations. Especially since there are draconian penalties for even inadvertent violations.
I suppose some regional distributors will be able to ignore this, but only if they're dealing with producers who are willing to be banned by the national distributors.
OK, I see how this manages to evade market response.
Ultimately, the cost of compliance just isn’t that high. That is why most pork producers haven’t pulled out of California.
You are right. If the cost was too high, they would have the choice to pull out.
The problem, I think, is that you have national grocery chains such as Walmart that hardly want to abandon California, but neither do they want to split their inventory systems to distinguish products that can be shipped to California and products that can't, especially given that a mistake could result in draconian penalties.
So they'll only buy from producers that guarantee compliance with California rules. Which means that the producers don't see a market where 14% has to meet California standards. They see a market where the majority has to meet California standards. Making it less economic to capture the savings from not meeting those standards, than if the producers were selling direct, and could just abandon California as a market.
This leaves the savings from not complying being limited to smaller scale regional suppliers and groceries. A grocery chain that doesn't do business in California, such as Publix, can afford to purchase from a supplier which doesn't guarantee compliance, but those suppliers are not the market leaders, so they're not having much influence on the price.
Those issues are common in the alcohol beverage industry, which has addressed them without much problem for at least a half-century.
I haven't heard right-wingers squawking about Texas' highly restrictive, unusual limitations on beer, which were in place for decades.
I am not persuaded that California is doing anything unusual in this regard, let alone anything wrong.
You are such a predictable moron. "Right-wingers" don't generally squawk about TX beer regulations because its not a left-wing/right-wing issue. Duh.
Anti-regulation interests regularly solicit briefs and op-eds from conservative sources regarding these alcohol issues; right-wing organizations regularly file briefs and publish op-eds in this context. R Street has a guy who seems to work full-time on this issue. Other than that, though, great comment!
From the 1970s to the 1990s you had to pay extra for a car that met California emissions rules. Pay extra and get less power.
And the feds Ok'd this two-tier emissions requirement, because the automakers didn't want to have to build 50 cars for 50 states, yet California had its famous valley smog problem.
Now the Interstate Commerce clause was about keeping the trade routes open from states interfering with trade. My own state had higher meat standards tossed because it was really about domestic protection.
But deliberately increasing a different meat regulation, for the purpose of extending it nationwide, is itself exactly the type of interstate interference by one state that the clause was designed to deal with.
Whether Congress should, or it is blocked already, are separate issues. But under the strictest understanding (keeping trade flowing) it is allowed.
Of course, politicians, being corrupt, use it as another argument to get in the way of trade, but that's a mass murderous sorrow dragging down progress in technology.
"But deliberately increasing a different meat regulation, for the purpose of extending it nationwide, is itself exactly the type of interstate interference by one state that the clause was designed to deal with."
No, it's not. Deliberately "increasing(sic) [your use of "higher" is also problematic] a different[?] meat regulation" for the purpose of BENEFITTING LOCAL INDUSTRY is the type of interstate interference by one state that the clause was designed to deal with.
The have the power to do exactly that. No producer is forced to raise their product so it may be sold in California. There are 49 other states, all with their own markets, to choose from.
The same can be said for meat quality standards, but there you are.
Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce. I am not saying Congress does not have the power to override California’s law, but that unless Congress does so, the courts should stay out of it.
"What’s preventing this obvious result?"
I agree but as always, today myriad government interventions are seriously interfering with market functioning at every level. Everything from the USDA to, I guess, whether the Federal Reserve buys your corporate bonds.
"Doesn’t effect me, I deal directly with a friend who raises free range pigs for his own consumption. His costs don’t have anything to do with the latest stupidity in California."
Yeah, until he gets taken down by the USDA or some other agency.
https://fee.org/articles/amish-farmer-faces-fines-prison-time-for-refusing-to-comply-with-usda-regulations/
"Amos Miller Organic Farm is our century-old Amish family farm in Bird-in-Hand, Pennsylvania - serving its Private Member Association. The farm raises its animals and other pure foods the way nature intended and we are proud to be entirely chemical, cruelty and GMO-free. The animals are born and raised without antibiotics or hormones and they spend their entire lives naturally and stress-free out on pasture. All of the farm’s food is traceable, pure and grown on nutrient dense soil, under traditional time-honored methods.
The farm is now under attack by the USDA about non-conforming practices, the practices which pre-date the USDA. They are suing the farm to comply with USDA laws, concerning the way the farm animals are processed and how our food is labeled. The farm and its members believe that we have the right of free assembly and the right to choose how our food is processed and consumed without the USDA dictating to the farm."
https://www.givesendgo.com/G3NZH
Miller's problems started when the raw milk he sold killed someone.
Now the USDA is requiring him to either meet their safety standards, or stop selling his stuff. Good for them.
takedown of your claim is here
https://www.thelancasterpatriot.com/food-reporter-uncovers-listeria-claims-on-millers-organic-farm/
it was highly unlikely. you should be fined 2500.00 for misinformation
Not sure what your last sentence is about.
But, from your source:
The CDC suggested that “whole genome sequencing” of a sample of raw milk from Miller’s farm was “closely related genetically” to the listeria sample from the dead individual.
Which makes no sense. Why would DNA from listeria-free milk be “closely related” to Listeria DNA? Or the so-called “Listeria sample” an undigested mass of infected milk in the dead woman’s stomach?
…the DOJ said the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) “sought to assess whether L. mono might be contaminating Miller’s meat and poultry products,” but “Miller refused to grant FSIS entry to the farm’s meat-and-poultry-related facilities, even after the agency served him with a subpoena.”
Is the DOJ confused about the difference between a subpoena and a warrant? Or is their spokesman trying to confuse us?
The third and 5th paragraphs were within blockquote tags before an edit. It would be nice if Reason fixed this bug.
The sample from Miller's farm was not listeria-free.
Read the CDC report here https://www.cdc.gov/listeria/outbreaks/raw-milk-03-16/index.html
There is nothing wrong with "raw milk" FYI, it is better. But has a shorter shelf life.
Of course under the relevant New Deal case law the FEDS can regulate your friend's pigs even if he's in the same State as you or even if he just eats them himself.
Crazy, eh?
Hypothetical (maybe...): A manufacturer of abortion pills in NJ wants to sell them in states where abortions are banned. What's the difference? (Note that if you're going to argue that, ah, but abortion is a crime while eating pork isn't, CA could readily make it illegal to eat pork produced contrary to CA regs, so that argument doesn't work.)
The difference is that the states banning the pills are not forcing an ENTIRE INDUSTRY into big increases in cost (both capital and operating) with no offsetting increase in revenue.
Your example is no comparison at all.
Well, if say Alabama can conclude that abortion is murder and ban it outright, why couldn't California conclude that meat is murder and do the same? And if the state can ban it outright, surely it has the lesser power to impose conditions on its sale.
Alabama law only applies within Alabama. They’re not going to be sending cops to California to stop abortions. California is also not banning meat. Stupid analogy.
"California is also not banning meat."
Yeah I know. My point is that they *could* ban it if they wanted to. And if they can ban it, why couldn't they take a lesser, more moderate approach of merely regulating it?
The rest of your post is utterly ridiculous. If Alabama bans all abortion pills, what you you think would happen if a pharmaceutical company tried to keep shipping abortion pills to Alabama residents under the guise of being, say, a blood thinner? Surely Alabama could ban that company from selling in the state outright. And if it could do that, it could also say to them "hey, if you want to keep shipping to our state, you have to agree to let us inspect your out-of-state production facilities to make sure you're abiding by our laws. Those are your choices." Why couldn't they do that?
They can regulate anything they want that occurs within their borders.
This gets at an interesting set of theories on state power. One is a state has economic power within its limits. The other says it has power over its citizens wherever they rome.
They are each consistent, but mutually conflicting. We shall see what wins the day here.
Not following you. California isn't proposing to punish residents for roaming into other States to eat non-compliant pork chops.
The abortion laws being planned do. And it is not clear they cannot,
Banning the pills reduces the company's profits, so the effect on the bottom line is the same, even if it's arrived at differently.
I would think that the proper call here would be that the individual state could criminalize the hell out of the possession and use of such pills. Perhaps they could restrict delivery via private services such as their local FedEx.
They should have absolutely no power over the capability of the entity in another state to sell them nor of the US mail to deliver them. Both of these are the real reason that the federal government exists in the first place.
Is there anything in the law or in practice to keep their prices more or less the same in the other 49 states and increase to price in shipments to California such that those buyers bear all of the cost of the law? I think that’s mathematically doable, and operationally doable.
There’d be some loss of California demand of course.
Otherwise just cut them off. No pork for you! Of course that would force you to lay-off around 15% of your staff but California doesn’t give a shit about those people anyway. They can learn to code.
Were I a large agricorp, I’d come up with some seal like“H for humane” or whatever, and sell pork to CA that complies with the CA law and sell the same pork elsewhere in the country with the same seal, charging more than regular pork, and see whether consumers in other states will pay extra for more humanely reared pigs.
No you wouldn’t. In a low margin business like pig performing and pork production there’s no room for crap like that. The amount you’d have to increase your prices by to try to capture maybe 15% of the market would render you laughably uncompetitive.
Raising prices outside CA and making yourself non-competitive with non-compliant producers in 85% of the country is likely to be far more expensive than making as many farms as needed to meet demand compliant and leaving the rest alone. If, as suggested above, WalMart and Albertsons want only compliant beef to simplify their inventory I don't see why it's a big problem for the pork producers if those customers want only the more expensive product.
Having two lines of pork products is a moderate expense, but if the pork producers don't win in court that ship has sailed.
Three words for you. “Focus group. “
Agriculture is an industry with surprisingly low barriers to entry. If you think it's so easy and potentially profitable, please show us how it's done.
There is an old joke that farming is the only business where you buy at retail, sell at wholesale, and pay shipping both ways.
The difference is that the anti-abortion states are regulating only the actions of their own residents - specifically, the prospective sellers of the NJ abortion pills. No one is claiming the authority to go from those non-abortion states to inspect the NJ-based facility. California, on the other hand, is explicitly claiming the authority to conduct extraterritorial inspections of manufacturing facilities to enforce their law.
Maybe they could ban selling, buying, possessing, or using abortion pills within the state, but not shipping/selling them across state lines?
Seems dubious and different though. I would liken it to cyanide pills. Can states ban cyanide pills?
I don't know how I feel about this. As a government tax lawyer and taxation hearing officer, I was mostly concerned with fairness. Of course, there always is the case where a state goes too far in exercising its policies. Abuse invites reform...or as one of my law school professor would say, "Little pigs get fed; hogs get slaughtered."
But wait, if SCOTUS wants to slaughter this hog, will it need to comply with California law?
Why isn’t the supposed problem here, if there even is one, a problem for Congress to solve through its power to regulate interstate commerce rather than a problem for courts to solve through the judicially invented dormant commerce clause?
From what I understand, the expansive interpretation of the interstate commerce clause would let the feds deny even the in-state produced-and-bought pigs' regulations, because a traveller might buy one, or this affects prices in CA, which affects prices around the nation tangentially.
Whether Congress should is separate. But they could. By the same arrogant interpretation that allows these pig protectors to insinuate a finger into everything else.
It isn’t the same at all. What the “pig protectors” have done is pass a state law that can (but need not be) overridden by Congress.
And companies can (and have) responded by segregating pigs bound for the California market from pigs bound for other markets.
I do not believe that California’s law is arrogant. It is just regulating pork consumed within California and if the burden on interstate commerce is too high in the eyes of Congress, then Congress can and should step in. Overall, the burden isn’t high and many companies have already chosen to successfully adapt so that they can comply. I believe that whether the burden is too high is a decision for Congress, not the courts.
Seems reasonable, but "many companies have already chosen to successfully adapt" have they? OP says "specified conditions far more costly than currently are practiced anywhere else."
I hope CA wins and big states like Texas and FL pass competing laws.
Make China decide how it wants to produce goy-slop pork to satisfy the market fragmentation.
How would TX and FL pass competing laws?
Require pigs to be raised in suitcases?
No. Prevent the sale of pork that complies with CA law, or organic standards, etc. Go in the other direction.
Or Texas could enact a statute obligating Twitter, Facebook, and others to associate with racists, insurrectionists, misogynists, seditious conspirators, superstitious gay-bashers, delusional conspiracy theorists, anti-vaccination kooks, un-American immigrant-haters, and similar conservatives.
If you’re gonna do that just institute a price cap.
Suitcases are used in interstate travel, which affects suitcase prices, which affects interstate trade, therefore Congress can tell you what to do.
"For Californians, this was cheap and easy virtue signaling."
In the estimable opinion of the learned professor, was the law also cringe and blue-pilled? Should the Supreme Court make them cope and seethe?
It was. They get to feel virtuous at zero cost to themselves. Textbook virtue signaling.
Let these clingers whine and vent.
It won't change the points that they (and their stale, ugly, unpopular thinking) are being swamped by the tide of the culture war, and that the liberal-libertarian mainstream will continue to arrange our national progress against the wishes and works of conservatives.
Meanwhile, watching these clingers advocate judicial activism, the disregard of states' rights, and the inverse of their positions regarding Texas (social media, textbooks) and Florida law is amusing.
"I dissent", without a "respectfully", is the closest to seething you will see from the Supreme Court.
I strongly disagree with the blatant judicial activism recommended by McConnell. Out of state pork producers can and have segregated pork bound for the California market with pork bound for other markets. This hasn’t been free, but the choice to sell in California is voluntary, and complying with the law isn’t always free. McConnell says that the pork raised in cruel conditions is “no different” than pork raised otherwise. This is like saying that t-shirts produced with slave labor is “no different” than t-shirts produced by factories paying generous wages. McConnell should grant those of us who care about issues like animal cruelty or slave labor basic respect, and acknowledge that we reasonably see such difference as important and relevant. Knowing that a product is made with slave labor or that food is produced through animal cruelty rationally decreases the enjoyment many people achieve by consuming such products. We would like to live in a decent society that does not condone and subsidize unnecessary suffering or abuse of humans or animals.
Why is this a problem, of all problems, that must be solved by courts? If California laws really did cause a problem for other states or commerce among them generally, why isn’t it the job of Congress rather than unelected judges to decide the right balance between respecting state preferences versus recognizing the national interest. The Constitution explicitly grants Congress, not the courts, the power to regulate interstate commerce! The problem that McConnell is trying to solve is that Congress isn’t actually interested in stopping California’s laws from impacting interstate commerce. But I don’t see why McConnell’s possible inability to attract a Congressional majority for his position should be solved by the courts. This appears to be an attempt to gain through the legal system that which could not be presently achieved through the political system.
We all know how this has gone in the past, as well. Some conservatives want to argue that states can’t regulate X through the dormant commerce clause, but the federal government can’t regulate X either because it exceeds the scope of enumerated powers. The result is a vicious race to the bottom, which elevates only the affluent while disregarding the interests and needs of the rest of society.
Take raising pigs, for example. The argument will be that raising pigs is an intrastate activity. Congress has no power to regulate it. But then states like California cannot insist that pork sold there was raised under cruel conditions under the dormant commerce clause either. The only option left for those concerned about avoiding animal cruelty is to pass laws requiring humane conditions for pigs raised within a particular state. But that is actually a false choice, because in the presence of competition, more humane conditions for the pigs would just drive pork producers out of the state that regulated conditions entirely, and no pigs would actually benefit from more humane conditions in the end. This set of conservative preferences would result in a political equilibrium where pigs MUST be treated in an cruel way, with neither federal or state government with any effective ability to do anything about it.
The same argument applies to many other areas. Take safe conditions for workers as an example.
All of this based on the theory that courts rather than Congress is responsible for regulating interstate commerce???
The dormant commerce clause in general is a doctrine that badly needs to die. But if not that, it needs to be limited. Talk about conservative judicial activism. This is nothing more than a formula for creating vicious races to the bottom which guarantee cruelty not only to animals, but also humans.
"produced through animal cruelty rationally decreases the enjoyment"
The hogs only exist to die. Its irrational to think that hogs think like humans, that "cruelty" has any affect on them. They lack the capacity for such higher-level reasoning.
Bob:
That is your opinion. But I believe that intelligence exists on a spectrum. Pigs are more intelligent than rocks (which aren’t intelligent at all). And pigs feel pain. In general, the capacity of animals to reason varies across species. (And all are capable of some reasoning. For example, X causes pain, so avoid X.)
If you were to slaughter a pig for food, wouldn’t you have the decency to do it quickly rather than torture the pig with unnecessary suffering?
In any case, my point isn’t that you are wrong. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I respect both you and your opinion. But I am also entitled to mine, and this issue just isn’t one for the courts to decide.
If there was a problem caused by California’s regulations due to the burden on interstate commerce, then let Congress address it.
"this issue just isn’t one for the courts to decide"
Courts decide all issues in 2022 America. When was the last time you heard "don't make a federal case out of it"? Everything is a federal case.
I kind of think you are agreeing with me, but then expressing disappointment that this really isn’t always the way it is.
In that case, I feel you. I am just articulating what I think should happen.
Oh, come on, you evidently have no experience with livestock. I wouldn't even say that of chickens, and they're literal bird brains. But they still have individual personalities once you get to know them. Pigs are at least as smart as dogs, maybe more so.
I raise chickens for eggs, and while I don't think it immoral to keep them penned, and eventually kill them for the stew pot, damned if I'm going to make them suffer in the meanwhile. I don't pull wings off flies, either.
My friend who raises pigs also raises them humanely, free range, with a varied diet. My experience is that most people who raise livestock see to it they have a very nice life, unless they're working for a major corporation where policy is made by people who are remote from the animals. You can't interact a lot with animals and want them to suffer, unless you're some sort of sociopath.
That, of course, is separate from the question of whether California should be permitted to dictate nation-wide standards in this or any other area. Or even whether the dormant interstate commerce clause permits this level of regulation over products imported from other states. I kind of thought states couldn't ban importation of products, though they could make possession of them a crime within the state, alcohol excepted.
But there is no dictating here by California. Perhaps there is some influencing (because it might be cheaper to treat all pigs equally rather than segregating the ones intended for California).
Now, the line between influencing and controlling/dictating isn’t always crystal clear, I will concede. But if California goes too far, Congress can always step in. So, we have a political solution that doesn’t require one size fits all intervention by courts.
What I think is that it's dubious to suggest that a state can ban the importation of ANYTHING, save "intoxicating liquors", for which there's an amendment. Possession within the state? Sure. Importation? Nope, that's a federal matter.
Threading the line between what the state can't ban, and can, could be tricky.
That's kind of the point of the interstate commerce clause, after all; As much to deprive the states of this power, as to give it to the federal government.
But the interstate commerce clause does not deprive states of power. At least not directly. It is the supremacy clause that deprives states of power when and only if Congress passes some law that conflicts with a state law.
The theory that the commerce clause is actually a provision that takes power from the states, rather than granting a power to Congress is one that has been accepted by the courts to some degree (it is called the dormant commerce clause), but I believe that is just a bad interpretation of the Constitution.
It is awfully paternalistic of the courts to say, well, Congress hasn’t actually passed a conflicting law under the commerce clause, but we are going to override state law anyway. As if Congress was not capable of expressing itself if that was the result it wished to achieve. And as if Article I, section 8, which grants powers to Congress, should actually be interpreted as taking power away from states.
iirc, the entire purpose of the commerce clause was to stop states from instituting barriers to interstate trade, because states doing so was a problem under the Articles of Confederation. ie, the 'dormant' commerce clause is the primary point.
I don’t think removing barriers to trade was the “entire” purpose of the clause. There are reasons to regulate interstate commerce than to remove barriers to it.
If that was the entire purpose of the commerce clause, why even put it in section 8 as a power of Congress? Why not put it in section 10, which is the section for restrictions on the powers of states?
Your interpretation is bad, in my opinion. I don’t even know if the Constitution would have been ratified if there had been a “dormant commerce clause” type provision in section 10, as taking powers away from states was a very sensitive issue.
The commerce clause enables Congress to remove barriers to commerce if it wants to. But it also enables Congress to create barriers to trade.
What section 8 DOESN’T do is give the Supreme Court the power to regulate commerce by either creating or removing barriers to trade. Instead, the role if the Supreme Court is to apply whatever laws are passed by Congress (whether creating or removing barriers to trade).
The so-called “dormant commerce clause” is a judicial usurpation of power that the Constitution reserves for Congress. The framers had a place to put provisions limiting the power of states.
Congressional powers in section 8 only limit states to the extent that laws passed by Congress under section 8 conflict with state law.
If the so-called Dormant Commerce Clause were the primary point, then that would be an awfully strange way to phrase the constitutional provision in question. Why would they have written something that doesn't even mention that limitation on state power, but instead talks only about the power of the federal government?
"Congress shall have the power to regulate commerce among the several states" is not a natural way to say, "States shall not have the power to regulate commerce among the several states."
" The hogs only exist to die. Its irrational to think that hogs think like humans, that “cruelty” has any affect on them. They lack the capacity for such higher-level reasoning. "
Why do clingers get so upset about the shooting of dogs that tend to be, or to be owned by, assholes?
One question. It appears the regulation only applies to intrastate sales in CA.
So if I am a California resident, I can still call up a producer and order non-compliant pork shipped to my doorstep, right? Or go online. Or drive across the state line. Etc. Of course most people will still just buy at the store.
California regulators will roam the land inspecting farms in other states to enforce the law.
Is that really how this will work, or will CA regulators require pork sold within the borders of the state carry a label from some third party? Besides, this take makes it seem like no state could regulate health or safety of products sold within its borders if produced outside of it. If this is really how the "dormant commerce clause" is supposed to work, then it is saying that only the federal government can regulate health and safety. This really seems to spin the typical libertarian position on federalism on its head.
Now, given the Supremacy Clause, I would understand if the argument is that federal regulations would supersede state regulation of products crossing state borders. But even there, I have often seen it said that states are often free to impose more strict standards than the federal government. Think of the minimum wage, for instance. States are free to set minimum wages higher than the federal minimum, but can't go lower. Maybe if federal regulation of meat production specifically says that states cannot impose more strict animal welfare requirements than the federal regulations, I could see the argument. But otherwise, I am thinking that the dormant commerce clause principle is just a way for businesses to get what they want at the expense of state authority.
Ugh. This is a terrible amicus brief. As a general rule, it is best to avoid phrases like "virtue signaling." Judges that like the phrase won't care, while judges who don't will view you (and your arguments) as unserious.
After peeling away the verbiage, it would seem that the basic premise is quite simple; California is big. Because it's big, companies care about the market. Because companies care about the market, regulations that California can (and should) be able to pass in a federal system should be disallowed because California's actions, as a state sovereign, have an outsized impact on the national market.
Which ... I don't think of that as much of a principle (either legal or conservative). This may be a silly law. This may be a stupid law. But if this was Vermont passing it, no one would care.
The people of California can be as stupid or silly as they want to be on this matter. And either the "doom and gloom" is true, in which case some producers are going to sell exclusively, and cheaply, outside of California ... or it's just been posturing, in which case that won't happen. Either way, the market will decide- not our unelected Council of Guardians.
When yokels have an outsize influence, some people seem to like that (and push for more of it, an resist efforts to diminish it). When large, modern, accomplished states have substantial influence, however, those same people experience conniptions.
Y’all didn’t answer my question above. Those of you who think this is swell, I assume you’d be ok with Texas passing a law that said that companies must have workforces that are 100% legal to be here. And furthermore, Texas is going to send officers to all the ag operations in California to inspect every worker’s situation. One violation and your company can no longer do business in Texas. That would be ok, right?
So, first off – you know that Texas and Florida are already passing laws like this, right? The ones regulating the content of social media platforms? In addition to the FA issues, if this argument works here, then of course it would be a (dormant) commerce clause violation.
That said, it’s a little different to analyze immigration issues because immigration is usually exclusively a federal (not state) issue. So that’s not a very clean example. But let’s say ….
Texas only wants cruelty-filled pork (or whatever). Can Texas regulate their market such that producers only sell cruelty-filled pork in Texas? SURE! It might be stupid, or silly, or a political stunt aimed at California, but why not?
So if a producer wants to see their cruelty-filled pork in Texas, can Texas then say, “Okay, but you have to certify to us, by allowing some Texas A&M students we are deputizing (NO GUMMINT!) to visit your facilities and make sure you’re torturing your pigs enough!” Why not?
What part of this is unclear?
Fundamentally, the Constitution does not exist to prevent governments from passing stupid or silly laws, and it does not enact the policy preferences of people.
They aren’t sending state officials to other states to exercise authority they don’t have.
And I don’t like the social media laws. But if California can do this, then why can’t Texas and Florida take dominion over the internet? Anything goes when a big state wants it.
What authority? The producer doesn't have to allow the state official.
They also don't have to sell in California. This isn't hard.
The same authority that California ag inspectors will have in Missouri.
Exactly!
I am not sure why you are insisting that companies have the right to sell products within a state.
Here, try this since you are a huge fan of outrageous "own the libs" hypos. A brand new yummy drink that claims to rejuvenate you is made from discarded third-trimester aborted fetuses. Texas would like to ban the sell of this, even thought California allows it.
The producers of YummyBaby! and its many equivalents coming straight from the AbortionPlex demand the right to sell in Texas. After all, they don't want to lose jobs. Should Texas be allowed to restrict or prohibit the sale of YummyBaby! and similar drinks?
Even though there might be California jobs lost?
Fuck off. I’ve never once tried to own the libs. Your political filter is putting me in a box where I don’t belong, so away with you.
Oh, you're one of those. Sure, bud. It's my political filter that's the issue!
I started with an example; you're the one that keeps proposing immigration, etc.
Or, since Texas produces 41% of American oil (2nd place is NM with 11%) Texas says “If you have outlawed internal combustion autos at any point going forward we’ll assume you don’t need oil so we won’t sell you any. We’ll just sell it to someone else”. That’s fine too. Right?
No, it's isn't fine! You can't change the hypotheticals with completely different fact patterns.
Why don't you take a stab at it, Bevis. Or should I call you the Great Cornholio?
What did you do that made that very, very different? And why?
Of course I can. I’m a big state. I can do whatever the fuck I want. You don’t like it, freeze your ass off and walk wherever you go. I don’t have to worry about you - you don’t live in my state.
Okay, let's treat you like you're not a moron.
First, there's the actual practical problem with your hypothetical. Oil and gas are fungible. So assume Texas regulates company A from selling to California. Company A will sell to Company B in Oklahoma. Company B will then sell to California. That's just pretty basic stuff.
Now, the legal stuff. There is a difference between these two things-
A. State says, "I am regulating the sale of X within the state."
B. State says, "You cannot sell products from this state to other states."
This difference, which is a big one ... is kind of the whole basis of the principles distinction of our federal system of government. Now that I've point this out, I'm hoping that maybe you'll actually see it.
You haven’t heard about the global oil shortage, have you? Someone else would soak up that production in a heartbeat. And there’s nobody to fungibly replace the Texas oil. Its production is 4x the next largest producer.
I wouldn’t put it past my own extremist government to try something like that. California is trying to wipe out our largest employer, so fuck it. The concept of “let ‘em freeze in the dark” has come up regularly in these parts.
On the first, I think you are unclear on what "fungible" means. Or how actual oil and gas supply works. But that's okay- that's just the practical issues.
On the second, I don't think you are understanding why your example isn't a good one from a legal perspective.
People can say whatever they want. "How dare California pass this stupid law. If they do, Texas will secede!" I mean, sure. Great. Has nothing to do with the legal issues. Again- legal blog. There is a difference between a state passing a regulation for its own market, and a state trying to regulate the interstate market for oil and gas. It's a pretty pretty pretty fundamental distinction.
Finally- at a certain point, people need to stop getting so whipped up and crazy about this. If it's a truly stupid and silly law, then Californians will suffer and they will change it. If it isn't, then all the sturm und drang is for nothing. Either way, Californians get to make those decisions in a federal system- just like Texans do (if you could ever come up with an actual on-point example of Texas regulations ... despite the fact that I started by giving you one with Texas and the regulation of social media platforms).
It's all very well and good to say that "oil is fungible". But "oil in a specific place" is hardly fungible. If you couldn't sell Texas oil and gas in California, while there are other sources, would they be able to make up the shortfall? I suspect not.
In 2021 the sources of oil going to California refineries were:
CA domestic 28.9%
Alaska 14.9
Ecuador 9.9
Saudi Arabia 9.2
Iraq 8.9
Other countries 8.2
Brazil 4.5
Guyana 4.5
Colombia 3.6
Russia 3.5
Mexico 2.2
Brunei 1.7
Other states and Canada 0.3
Source: http://www.energy.ca.gov
The Constitution as originally designed was a pact providing for two main things: free interstate trade, and a common defense. Those two things were the chief aims and effects of creating this Union of States.
It seems plausible that the free trade agreement or dormant commerce clause bars regulation of the products that are imported from other states, their methods of manufacture, and so on. Or at least, it would bar a very heavy handed and excessive regulation such as this.
The OP discusses that allowing states to go down this road is very bad policy, and lists things that they will probably do if allowed. That may be true, but it is not necessarily relevant to the question of original meaning. The Constitution clearly allowed multiple competing power centers both within the federal government and among each of the sovereign states, which may lend itself of chaos and brinksmanship, but also avoids a greater, longer term evil of more centralized government power. Nonetheless, a free trade pact was one of the central purposes of the Constitution so I assume it places some limitations on regulating interstate commerce.
Ahh the pining for the pre 14A State-Federal relationship.
This whole discussion turns the Chicago School of law and economics on its head. The usually lassiez-faire folk who read Reason are showing up to argue that the market should not be allowed to discover the optimum price point. Suddenly Coase Theorem bargaining looks shabby.
I see two potential resolutions. (A) Congress does its job and preempts the state-on-state fights. (B) CA and other big states wield their economic power to express preferences to which other actors choose to cater. We can lament the implications of that all we want, but fighting supply and demand is like defying gravity. CA voters are, through their representative government, expressing preferences for goods having certain qualities. All that is occurring here -- from an economics perspective -- is that the preference is being expressed collectively instead of individually.
But to be clear I do not favor a judicial rule, tacked to the Commerce Clause or otherwise, that the courts protect actors in State A from the economic preferences of actors in State B merely because State B's preferences affect cross-border prices.
By the way, for the people that are curious- this type of stuff happens all the time.
In addition to the "car issues," California famously has Prop. 65- you know, the reason everything has a warning label. Because of Prop. 65, a lot of licorice (real licorice) cannot be sold in California. A lot of producers simply choose to forego that market instead of label.
Like the 4th of July and celebrating on your own? Hope you're not in Massachusetts, which bans consumer fireworks ... or you go to New Hampshire.
And don't get me started on weird booze laws- even after South Carolina did away with their "minibar bottle" law. No matter what state you live in, I can almost guarantee you that there is some kind of weird regulation.
In the end, the primary problem is this- if you want to advance an idea of federalism, you have to allow states to ... you know, GOVERN. And if you want real federalism that means the scope for a dormant commerce clause is pretty small- all regulations have some impact on the market beyond the borders of the state given the nature of the economy. In effect, you want to both force the federal government to not regulate (by restricting Wickard and its progeny) while at the same time restricting state regulation (by saying that state regulations impact other states). Which ... yeah, that doesn't work ... I mean, unless your goal is that no one should be allowed to govern; which is a goal, but certainly not what the Constitution contemplated.
People can do stupid stuff. Constitution doesn't stop them.
The weird booze laws at least have a carve-out from the interstate commerce clause, though. The amendment that repealed Prohibition did that, too.
Unlike everyone else here, I am not righteously certain what the right decision is. (I have not read the briefs, though. But I'm sure the culture warriors above have not either.) Now, as a Jew, I don't care about this law at all. As a libertarian, I hate the law itself, regardless of its effects on interstate commerce. As a lawyer, it's complicated.
On the one hand, as a purely formalistic matter, California is not forcing anyone in another state to do anything. No out-of-state producer will be fined, enjoined, or imprisoned for not complying with California's production requirements. The only consequence of failing to do so is not being allowed to sell those products in California. And California is entitled to regulate sales that take place entirely in California, right?
On the other hand, as a functional matter, California is attempting to, and hoping to, change out-of-state practices. From the perspective of a California consumer, the products are identical. California isn't trying to regulate the products themselves. It's not like banning internal combustion engines from being sold in California and requiring people to drive electric instead. Rather, the state is trying to control the behavior of people in other states. That is only underscored by the fact that California actually wants to send inspectors to other states.
Then again, this works, if it does, only because California is big. If Delaware tried it, then producers wouldn't change their practices, they would just stop selling in Delaware. But is that constitutionally significant? Does that mean that Delaware's hypothetical law would be okay but California's violates the DCC? That seems problematic. But holding that Delaware's hypothetical law violate the DCC even though it wouldn't actually have any effect on any other states seems a bit odd, too.
In Hammer v. Dagenhart, SCOTUS struck down a federal law regulating the interstate shipment of goods made with child labor on the functional grounds that this was an illegitimate attempt by the feds to reach into states and regulate manufacturing (which at the time was not deemed to fall under the Commerce Clause). But of course that was later supplanted.
In Crosby v. National Foreign Trade Council, SCOTUS struck down a Massachusetts law that forbid the state from doing business with companies that did business with Burma, even though the law specifically only applied to the Massachusetts government, on the grounds that the effects of the law spilled over into foreign policy and foreign commerce. Still not sure that was right, but it was unanimous.
Point is, it's complicated.
So, I'm going to point out the one area I disagree with you.
"From the perspective of a California consumer, the products are identical. California isn’t trying to regulate the products themselves."
That's not an accurate characterization from the P.O.V. of California- obviously, it would depend on your philosophical leanings as to what a product is. But most people do think that how a product is made matters- in fact, the market already differentiates based on this in so many different ways I don't think I have to go through it.
But let's take an easy one- two diamonds are identical. One is a blood (conflict) diamond, one isn't. Both have provenance and certification. I think that the majority of people would say that the products are different, and understand why they are priced differently.
For that matter, if you have two pieces of art, two prints that are otherwise identical, one with provenance and one without, they would be treated differently in California. (Cal. Civ. Code Sec. 1740-45.9).
I think that your statement is making an assumption about consumer behavior and products that isn't accurate- product differentiation is often determined by how the product is made.
I think this is right. Especially since for a lot of the things we do, it is about how they make us feel.
We eat delicious bacon because its deliciousness makes us feel good. It is not just about calories or some utilitarian calculation of protein versus carbs versus fat versus other nutrients, but the taste of the thing. Eating something tasty and delicious improves mood.
But what if you know (or find out) that in order to get that tasty and delicious bacon, some animal had to suffer. Now you have to deal with a conflicting feeling that lessens the mood enhancing effect of the delicious bacon either partially or even fully or even makes eating it a net negative.
Saying that the product is the same regardless of how it was produced is a statement about how humans should be in one particular person's opinion, not a statement about how all humans actually are.
People might indeed feel that way, but that doesn't alter the fact that the products themselves are commodities that cannot be readily distinguished; if you removed shipping labels and commingled shipments from a California-compliant producer and from other suppliers, nobody could separate them.
Ok. But the same is true of the diamonds in loki’s example above. And many people can’t distinguish counterfeit art from the “real” thing.
There are different ways of looking at things. One way is looking at a product as an arrangement of atoms. In that case, although there might be some difference in the atoms that constitute pig meat depending how it is raised, such differences would not be readily apparent to most people.
But I think the way a mainstream economist would look at it is through the concept of utility. If knowing how a product is produced impacts utility/personal pleasure, then the distinction is economically meaningful. Indeed, speaking for myself, knowing that an animal was raised humanely might be the difference between me eating bacon (which is quite delicious) or not eating it.
Now, if someone credibly lied to me and said that the bacon I was eating was ethically raised, then (assuming no atomic differences in the meat impacting nutrition), it would not decrease my personal pleasure to eat meat where the animal was treated poorly. That is, until I found out. But when and if I found out I would be significantly worse off.
TBH, most of the time, I don’t even consider the treatment of the animals I eat. I am no saint. But when I think about animals possibly being mistreated, it makes me not want to eat meat at all.
Ironically, maybe I would be better off if all meat was raised unethically, as this might actually inspire me to adopt to and adapt to a healthier diet.
Overall, while I think your view, which goes to the physical nature of the product itself is quite reasonable, on balance I think the definition that would be adopted by economists (and which focuses on the pleasure of consumers) seems more relevant. Laws against counterfeit goods not only protect the trademarks of legitimate sellers, but also the subjective preferences of consumers for a “genuine” product.
Wasn't Loki's art example 'prints'? Neither are 'the real thing'.
Anyway, if you can't taste the cruelty (and by that i mean, you could tell which was raised 'humanely' and which wasn't in a blind taste test), then they're the same.
Diamonds are a special case because US law requires every diamond in commerce in the US to be identifiable (as i understand it, a micro-engraved number on the diamond). Blood diamonds don't just cost differently, they're strictly illegal. All legal diamonds are fungible commodities.
Diamonds are a special case because US law requires every diamond in commerce in the US to be identifiable (as i understand it, a micro-engraved number on the diamond).
Hmm, seems like you are making CA’s point for them here. If CA required every pork product to be identifiable as coming from ethically-treated pigs, and legally banned those not identifiable as such, then wouldn’t that be just like the conflict-diamond law?
[edit: Ah, I see that you and David Nieporent seem to be going with the pork product itself, as distinct from any packaging, whereas diamonds have something etched into them. I think that is a very superficial difference. The point is that a consumer would be able to note whether the product was complying with the law prior to purchasing it.]
Your argument seems to be that as a consumer, I shouldn’t care if a t-shirt is made with slave labor or bacon is created through a process that involves cruelty.
But when consumers do care about something you think personally shouldn’t matter, doesn’t that just show that you have different preferences than them?
Some people would not want to live in a house built right next to a cemetery, even though the house is the same as one farther away. Some people want a house near the ocean or a lake. Some people wouldn’t want to live in a house where a serial killer tortured and murdered their victims.
You might be different. You might say: I don’t are about any of this, I only care about the house itself.
But ultimately, I think you should respect that other people’s preferences matter to them just as your preferences matter to you.
I'd insist the serial killer move out first.
I agree that this is a harder case (or analysis) than many here, because there has to be (I think) a limit on how much CA (or any large state) can impose, or seek to impose, its will on others.
Here is a set of potential restrictions by the state of XYZ. Which is OK and why? Assume none imposes obligations more onerous on out-of-state producers than are imposed on XYZ producers, and that all out of state practices comply with the applicable state and Federal laws.
XYZ bans the import or sale of goose liver
XYZ bans the import or sale of goose liver produced via gavage (foie gras)
XYZ bans the import or sale of foie gras produced by workers under 18
XYZ bans the import or sale of foie gras produced by workers who earn less than the corresponding XYZ minimum wage
XYZ bans the import or sale of foie gras produced by workers who are subject to a minimum wage higher than the corresponding XYZ minimum wage
XYZ bans the import or sale of foie gras produced by workers whose overtime wages could be less than would be earned by a corresponding XYZ worker (i.e. the two states use different OT standards)
XYZ bans the import or sale of foie gras produced by workers whose legal access to abortion is restricted to a greater extent than it would be to a corresponding XYZ worker
XYZ bans the import or sale of foie gras produced by workers whose legal access to abortion is restricted to a lesser extent than it would be to a corresponding XYZ worker
" Now, as a Jew, I don’t care about this law at all. "
Might a Jew be disinclined to eat a pig yet care about humane treatment of a pig?
"And California is entitled to regulate sales that take place entirely in California, right?"
Is that what they are doing? Most sales of pork to consumers will happen between the consumer and the grocery store located in the state. That is a sale that takes place entirely in California. If somebody goes online or otherwise purchases pork from an out of state producers (and essentially all of the producers are out of state) then that is not a sale that takes place entirely in California.
I wonder if this regulation that in substance regulates interstate commerce, can rely on this sort of form over substance trick.
But California voters have strong views on the ethical treatment of pigs, at least when other people pay the cost. In 2018, California voters passed Proposition 12, which allows the sale in California only of pork produced under specified conditions far more costly than currently are practiced anywhere else. California regulators will roam the land inspecting farms in other states to enforce the law.
For Californians, this was cheap and easy virtue signaling. Almost no California farmers are affected, yet prices will go up everywhere.
This particular argument that tries to claim that California is pushing the costs onto everyone but Californians is inaccurate and disingenuous:
1) Californians DO pay the costs, this is Econ 101. If the reg raises the costs by 10% then the prices go up by 10% for customers, including Californians. The only way this actually reduces cash for pork farmers is by making pork less competitive against alternative food sources.
2) If the framing is correct and it's Californian inspectors doing the verification then they're paying even more.
But otherwise I do agree this is probably excessive interference with the national market, though it's not super clear where to draw the line. I suspect one will find many other examples of regs in one state affecting operations in another.
That it isn't clear where to draw the line sure sounds like an argument for allowing Congress rather than some random court to draw the line.
That's actually a really good point.
Via an act of Congress, California can get a waiver from the EPA that lets them set their own vehicle emission standards. Though it does seem to me to be a critical difference that Congress explicitly delegated this power to California and the executive branch.
Amusingly the article addresses this exact situation and treats it as a hypothetical:
Next up will be companies that exceed California carbon emission targets.
California is paying 13% of the cost. The other 87% is borne by the consumers they screwed over.
My impression about all your comments here is that you are continually confusing whether the law is good policy with whether the law is constitutional.
Will Californians be able to forego bacon if the producers decline to cooperate? You know bacon may be persuasive. It would be for me.
They wouldn't forego it. It would just be in more limited quantities, and more expensive.
That said, major producers have already said that they can comply with the law. The oral argument was ... bizarre. Transcripts are worth checking out, just so you can see what appears to be a confused lineup of justices.
So I'll make a prediction after reviewing the transcripts of oral arguments.
They will dodge this. Remand for fact-finding. Given that recent statements appear to show that the Nat'l Pork Producers Council massively overhyped the economic impact and inability of its members to comply with the rules, it will likely end up dying in the lower courts.
(It's a weird thing to say, but companies are more transparent to investors than they are to appellate courts; and I trust what they are saying on their earnings calls a lot more than the hysteria cooked up by the Pork Council and its appellate ... counsel.)
Hey, I wonder if California will refuse to allow the sale in their state of products made by slave labor or child labor or people working for $0.25 per hour.
Probably not, huh. Wouldn’t be good for their tech companies. Newsome has more empathy for pigs than he does SE Asian human beings. But he can’t virtue signal where his bread is buttered.
Jesus, bevis. You can make a point without roiling contempt.
Here, it is a bad point. It is not hypocritical to address an evil in one place but not all places. And more importantly iPohones and the like are not a purely domestic product like pork is. Think for a moment what would actually be accomplished by such a law.
It would keep Californians from profiting from slave labor. I know they don’t want to do something tangible when they can just screw everyone else.
It’s a perfectly valid point. Or maybe think it’s ok to profit from slave labor as long as the slaves are foreigners.
Pigs > people.
Californians? Come on, man.
And no, ‘you can’t address this thing until you address this other thing’ is a bad argument.
To be clear Silicon Valley is software not hardware, and apple and Intel and whatever are not really bound to a state at this point.
Well I never realized that pig farming and pork manufacture was evil. Worse than slave labor. My wife grew up on a dairy farm, but her maternal grandparents were pig farmers and I visited them with her before they died.
I just didn’t know that I was in the presence of incorrigible evil. They just seemed like hard working country people to me. Of course, their primary language was German, so…..
“Nationwide producers cannot segment their markets.”
You mean nationwide producers prefer not to segment their markets because they find doing so inconvenient.
Just like they generally find any kind of regulation inconvenient, and regularly claim they can’t do it. Unless they think it’s in their interest.
Next, California will try to mess with social media companies that are not hospitable enough to bigots and insurrectionists!
(Prof. McConnell's failure to address that point (unless I missed it), coupled with the nod to "virtue signaling," indicates how difficult it is to suppress the clinger instinct. At least he didn't refer to "Democrat" legislators and judges.)
To paint US conservatives as entirely unprincipled is misleading at best, QA. The principle “any means to an end,” for example, animates present-day conservatives to an even greater extent than it did their 20th-century counterparts, or progressives of either era.
Perfect compliance is admittedly still aspirational - but the aspiration itself must be regarded as weighing heavily against your thesis.
No there isn't.