The Volokh Conspiracy
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Berkeley Law's "Jew-Free Zone" Controversy
In August, nine student groups at Berkeley law school signed a statement sponsored group Berkeley Law Students for Justice in Palestine pledging not to invite "speakers that have expressed and continued to hold views … in support of Zionism, the apartheid state of Israel, and the occupation of Palestine."
Two things need to be clarified. First, by "support" for "the occupation of Palestine" SJP means "supports the existence of Israel." So any speaker who thinks Israel should exist is forbidden. Second, the pledge is to not invite any speaker on any subject who comes within the scope of the ban. So, for example, if the "Women of Berkeley Law" group wanted to invite a speaker from NARAL to speak about post-Dobbs abortion rights activism, the group would decline to do so if the speaker has ever publicly stated that she's not in favor of Israel being destroyed (the flip side of Israel existing).
In practice, given that the only way Israel will cease to exist in the foreseeable future is via military defeat that would result in the deaths, expulsion, and other horrors inflicted on the 7.5 million Jews in Israel, that nine Berkeley groups have pledged to invited only speakers who favor genocide against these Jews. (Yes, in theory a peaceful transition from Israel to "Palestine" could occur, but let's acknowledge that this is highly unlikely. And let me add that I have yet to encounter any Israel-abolitionist who will say publicly that if the price of creating Palestine is mass oppression of Israel's Jewish population, that this would be too high a price. The late Edward Said, the leading American Israel-abolitionist of his day, for one acknowledged the potential price as unfortunate but one he was willing to countenance.).
Dean Erwin Chemerinsky publicly criticized the pledge, noting that "taken literally, this would mean that I could not be invited to speak because I support the existence of Israel, though I condemn many of its policies."
There things stood until attorney Ken Marcus, former chair of the Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights (and a friend and Distinguished Senior Fellow at my law school's Liberty and Law Center, where I am executive director), wrote an op-ed on the matter, published with the title, "Berkeley Develops Jew Free Zones." Marcus argued that given that the overwhelming majority of Jews support the existence of Israel, and are likely to have said so at some point, the relevant policy would exclude the vast majority of Jews from speaking to the relevant student groups. I would add that such "anti-Zionist" speaker policies are almost always selectively enforced against Jews; it's unlikely that a Brittany Smith would be queried about her views on Israel before being invited to speak, while an Aviva Rosenberg would be much more likely to face such scrutiny.
Marcus' op-ed set off a furor. Dean Chemerinsky responded that Marcus "does not mention is that only a handful of student groups out of over 100 at Berkeley Law did this." I think Erwin is being too cute here. The nine groups in question are all active groups, whereas I doubt there are really 100 active student groups at Berkeley Law, or even close. More important, the nine are affinity groups that at least purport to represent the vast majority of students at the law school: Muslim students, Queer students, Women students, Women of color students, and Asian Pacific students, to name the largest groups.
Chemerinsky also penned an op-ed in which he wrote that "widespread media attention to recent events at Berkeley Law are stunningly misleading and inaccurate." "There is no 'Jewish-Free Zone' at Berkeley Law or on the Berkeley campus."
I'm afraid that Chemerinsky's op-ed, however, is itself misleading and inaccurate. He writes, "At this stage, all some student groups have done is express their strong disagreement with Israel's policies." There is, in fact, no criticism of Israel's policies in the SJP boycott statement. Rather, as noted previously, there is a pledge to disinvite any speaker who thinks Israel should exist, regardless of its policies. And until each of the student groups in question publicly repudiates their pledge not to invite speakers who don't oppose Israel's existence, the media attention has neither been misleading nor inaccurate.
Chemerinsky also notes that the issue has received very little attention on campus. (I spoke to a small audience there last month, and I condemned the organizations in question as antisemitic, and I should have added pro-genocide). But that's exactly the problem. Naked, genocidal hostility to Israel's very existence, resulting in a boycott of predominately Jewish speakers, is met with indifference.
Two professors at the law school responded to the furor by noting that there is an active Israel-related program at the law school, and adding that "panic-mongering around anti-Zionism on U.S. campuses serves no purpose, other than to offer free advertisement for extremist ideas, and to erode needlessly Jews' sense of basic safety and security in places where Jewish life is actually thriving." But the professors also condemned SJP's campaign as "nakedly discriminatory," "bigoted" and "an outrage."
While I agree with these professors that the pro-genocide boycott is not worthy of "panic," surely outrageous, nakedly discriminatory, bigoted action by some large and influential student groups at one of the nation's top-ranked law schools is at least cause for alarm?
UPDATE: My post has been met with the insistence that support for "Zionism" and "occupation of Palestine" does not necessarily mean "Israel's existence." To the extent there was any ambiguity on this issue (and if you understand SJP's politics, we know its intent), it was cleared up when Dean Chemerinsky wrote to the entire law school school student body that because he supports Israel's existence, the rule would apply to him. Neither SJP nor any of the signators responded, "oh, no, we only meant people who support Israel's occupation of the West Bank, or right-wing Zionists."
The reaction of commenters seems part of a pattern in which Western liberals are unable to take the genocidal demands of Palestinian nationalists seriously, even when they are stated explicitly. Hamas, for example, explicitly seeks to replace Israel with "Palestine" and expel all Jews whose ancestors weren't in "Palestine" by 1898. Those remaining would live as second-class citizens in an Islamic state. Nevertheless, when Hamas and Israel are fighting, I consistently see reporters stating that "Hamas objects to Israel's occupation of the West Bank and its blockade of Gaza," as if Hamas's real objection wasn't to Israel's very existence.
Are Hamas's demands both unreasonable and genocidal? Yes. Is that a good reason to not take them seriously? Well, Jews have had some experience with unreasonable, genocidal hostility, and we don't have the luxury of not taking it seriously.
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David, I appreciate your taking the time and care to walk carefully through each tenuous inference supporting your ultimate strawman, so that we can all see how untethered from reality your charge is.
And I appreciate that you don't actually identify what you claim to be my ultimate strawman, or for that matter any strawman, so we can all understand that you don't have anything substantive to say.
Paraphrased: If you don't support the occupation of Palestine then you must support the genocide of the Jews.
Considering that the people we're talking about define the whole of Israel as part of "Palestine", and the very existence of Israel as "occupation", his take on this is perfectly reasonable. Genocide IS the only plausible way this "occupation of Palestine", so defined, ends.
That's certainly the rightwing view, and we've seen how right-wing responses to terorrism and threats only lead to them becoming vastly worse, such as the response to 9-11 and, well, the Israeli occupation of Palestine.
No, this SJP's view. What do you think they are referring to when they chant, "from the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free?" I'm not sure whether you are being purposely obtuse, or extremely and perhaps sweetly naive in understanding SJP's motives, but SJP believes that all of Israel is and should be "Palestine" and Israel's existence on any inch of "Palestine" is "occupation"--it doesn't matter whether its hebron or tel aviv.
Ah, a chant, yes. Ooh ah up the Ra.
It's the official charter of Hamas, which they support.
I know you want to make up your own facts. But facts are facts. They want Israel eliminated, period. They say so. Explicitly.
Nige, you're a fucking idiot. Why don't you just go away and bother some other board?
Given that opposing the "occupation of Palestine" means "Israel must be destroyed," as a practical matter, yes. Your goal may be "river to the see" and you don't care about the means, but if you aren't willing to disclaim genocide as a means, and as I noted precious few Palestinian nationalists are, then yes, you are pro-genocide.
'means “Israel must be destroyed,” as a practical matter, yes.'
This is a policy choice, a way of maintining power through the cultivation and exacerbation of an external - or in this case close to internal - threat. We've seen how this approach only leads to ever more extremism on both sides and the spread and intensification of conflict, and the likelihood of some sort of genocide or near genocide grows, and the ideological justification for it is cultivated.
This reminds me of the settler colonialism theorists (i think its Yang and Tuck specifically). (The essence of Settler Colonialism is that the 'original peoples' have the right to the land, and anyone else is a colonist - generally expressed in the American context. Colonialism is evil, therefore we should decolonize). Anyway, they basically say that they have no need to be concerned what happens to the 'colonists' after 'decolonialization'. That sounds a lot like advocacy for genocide.
The settler colonialism people are generally pro-Palestine and consider Israel to be colonists, too. (I wonder how they determine who the original 'native peoples' are).
(Strangely, I have yet to see any settler colonialism literature about China or Russia. Which doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and I'm not exactly enamored of this literature. But my sense is the theorists in question have an axe to grind specifically against the 'West', even though China is the most obviously colonial power in the world today.)
Open your eyes, Nige.
But actually, it is hard to believe that you are that stupid out this matter
I don't work here, David. Besides, I think you appreciate, on some level, that your various inferences are spurious. You just don't see that as any reason not to make them.
Simon,
I think it's important to consider the entire phrase,
support of Zionism, the apartheid state of Israel, and the occupation of Palestine."
The first two items very much suggest, to me, opposition to the existence of Israel.
The last one does, as well, as in their view, every inch of what is today Israel is occupied Palestine, and they say so, explicitly,
It certainly might.
Since much of the discussion is about that third point I was trying to say that the other two should not be ignored.
bernard11, you nailed it with your point. Thank you.
Chag Semeach Sukkot! 🙂
I certainly agree Bernard.
I'm not sure if this is intended as a kind of backhanded snark, but I draw the opposite inference.
"Zionism" here would seem to be referring to the project of establishing a Jewish-supremacist ethnostate in the land of historical Israel (including Judea and Samaria). The "apartheid state of Israel" would seem to refer to the de facto and de jure treatment of Israeli Arabs as second-class citizens, the military occupation and systematic colonization of the West Bank, and the blockade of Gaza.
That being the case, it seems evident to me that the group means by "occupation of Palestine" just what we might ordinarily think it means, i.e., occupation of the occupied territories that were originally set aside for the establishment of a Palestinian state. I do not find David's bank-shot via an unrelated chant to be persuasive.
Certainly, I think it is beyond absurd to suppose that any student group has officially adopted the position that they will be interested in hearing only from speakers who advocate for the genocide of Israeli Jews.
Yes, you could invent idiosyncratic definitions of Zionism that nobody uses, and then it wouldn't apply.
But under the normal definition of Zionism as support for a Jewish state in Israel, your argument holds less water than a fishnet.
But under the normal definition of Zionism as support for a Jewish state in Israel...
Once we resolve the circularity inherent in this "normal definition," we find that it's exactly what I said. Moron.
There's no circularity in that definition and resorting to name-calling shows you really have no better argument.
SimonPee, you just got a sick burn from "Burnstein", dogg!! (I know it's Bernstein.) Damn! If you can't run with the big dogs, stay under the porch. And go put some salve on that burn!! Hahaha Maybe a few days of rest and reflection will help you.
I actually care less about those specific groups not inviting Jews as I do about the likelihood that they will disrupt the meetings of anyone else who invites Jews. Free speech means they can decide for themselves whom to invite. But the strong probability is they will go beyond that by invoking a heckler's veto over anyone who invites such a speaker.
Perhaps they would be satisfied to return Israel to its original borders? Not the UN borders, God's.
On that day, the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, saying "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates". Genesis 15:18
Sorry, I took a poll. Zeus, All Father Odin, and Baal all have a different take on it.
Yahweh was just a mountain god when that was decided, and one of many gods in his pantheon and Ishtar was his girlfriend, and he hadn't yet demonstrated his superiority in the Battle of the Snake-Sticks, much less his super-supremacy that he was so great there weren't even actually any other gods in his own pantheon, much less any other.
Aren't Muslims descendants of Abraham too?
And yes, I know not all Palestinians are Muslims, but they're Xstians too, heck maybe even Jewish.
Sorry, Ishmael was born out of wedlock so couldn't inherit.
"maybe even Jewish"
Jews aren't allowed to live in the Palestinian Authority.
Its a felony to sell land to a Jew as well.
Ishmael was not born out of wedlock:
d. Please, go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children by her: Sarai encouraged Abram to take part in what was, in that day, essentially a surrogate mother arrangement. According to custom, the child would be considered to be the child of Abram and Sarai, not Abram and Hagar.
https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/genesis-16/
And by the way, the way Abraham and Sarah treated Hagar was vile, detestable and despicable. Not that I would expect you to care.
" Perhaps they would be satisfied to return Israel to its original borders? Not the UN borders, God’s. "
That's a silly, stupid statement; it disregards the opinions of Batman, Bugs Bunny, Wonder Woman, Sen. John Blutarsky, and the Tooth Fairy.
Berkeley is the most “progressive” school in the country . . . and the most antisemitic.
Just a coincidence, I am sure.
This interpretation assumes the worst, I think unfairly.
“support of Zionism” could mean supporting Israel’s right to exist, OR it could refer to a policy of expansion into what people consider separate Palestinian land.
“Occupation of Palestine” could mean all of Israel, OR only the West Bank, the Golan Heights, or Gaza (which some people still consider occupied).
“apartheid state of Israel” could mean Israel itself, OR its capacity as an “apartheid” state that allegedly treats non-Jews as an inferior class.
A not-insignificant number of Jews may share the above alternative interpretations, if not the positions themselves.
These groups that signed the statement MAY think the same as Edward Said, or they may not.
In any case, I’d wager these students are mostly kids in their mid-20s focused on pointless displays of solidarity in identity politics (look at the titles of the groups) who fancy themselves crusaders against oppression, so I wouldn’t read that much into it. There are not going to be pogroms at Berkeley.
You wrote:
“support of Zionism” could mean supporting Israel’s right to exist, OR it could refer to a policy of expansion into what people consider separate Palestinian land.
“Occupation of Palestine” could mean all of Israel, OR only the West Bank, the Golan Heights, or Gaza (which some people still consider occupied)."
It could, but it doesn't. Dean Chemerinsky wrote a note to the entire student body, pointing out that because he thinks Israel should exist, even though he is a strong left-wing critic of Israeli policies, he would be banned from speaking to the groups in question. SJP did not then clarify that it didn't mean someone like Cheremirinsky, and none of the groups that signed responded, "oh, if that's what it means, we didn't understand that, we thought it just meant occupation of the West Bank, we revoke our signature."
So, if there was any doubt before, now every group that signed is aware that both the dean and SJP itself agree that anyone who thinks Israel shouldn't be destroyed is ineligible to speak to these groups. And as yet, the statement stands with all its signators.
"It could, but it doesn’t. Dean Chemerinsky wrote a note to the entire student body, pointing out that because he thinks Israel should exist, even though he is a strong left-wing critic of Israeli policies, he would be banned from speaking to the groups in question."
He wrote that "taken literally" it would exclude him. But then in his op-ed, he also wrote all of the following things which you seem to be pretty conveniently ignoring:
"The Law School’s rules are clear that no speaker can be excluded for being Jewish or for holding particular views. I know of no instance where this has been violated."
and
"Most importantly, no group has violated the Law School’s policy and excluded a speaker on account of being Jewish or holding particular views about Israel. Such conduct, of course, would be subject to sanctions."
"Taken literally" means "what it says." Erwin was subtly inviting the groups to say, "oh, that's not what we meant," perhaps because they didn't understand what SJP meant by "occupation of Palestine," but so far no one has.
Also, how would Erwin know if a group in fact declined to invite someone because the speaker supports Israel's existence, unless the group publicly announced that?
calling law students Kids in their mid-20's and making an outlier interpretation of the words as you do is a very poor excuse for aniti-Semitism.
What are you, some kind of nazi?
Don, they ARE adult-sized children, that's part of the problem.
But don't think for an instant that there aren't actual adults in the faculty, staff, & admin who aren't encouraging them. It's nearly 60 years ago, but (then) Governor Ronald Reagan's words would be appropriate today
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05xJk9CnoRI
‘First, by “support” for “the occupation of Palestine” SJP means “supports the existence of Israel.”‘
If the existence of Israel and the occupation of Palestine are so completely interdependant, then Israel and its supporters have given up completely on finding a peaceful solution and committed to maintaining a supposedly democratic regime through the means of simultaneously maintining and imposing a brutal and tyrannical regime. How is that justifiable or sustainable, let alone desireable? Furthermore, given this admission, accusations of anti-semitism become moot – this represents an ideology and a morality that only overlaps with Jewishness because of the religion of many of the extremists who believe in it. I expect many US Christians share the belief that it is right and necessary to hold some, at home or abroad, in subjugation to maintain their own freedom. Certainly if they agree with current Israeli policy in this regard, they do so.
Others, of course, do not share the belief that the existence of Israel must be utterly dependant on tyrannical oppression.
There is much talk about a two state solution within the historic boundaries of Mandatory Palestine. Much talk and no action. The problem is, the two sides don't trust each other. They have good reason not to trust each other. I recall a Tom Clancy novel where Jack Ryan sent in peacekeepers to solve the problem.
I expect the folks at Berkeley would not support a two state solution but I could be wrong.
What worries me is the complete abandonment of any solution other than a military one. Bolstered as it is by the threat of genocide, how many years have to go by before the side with overwhelming military force decide it's them or us?
Israel has no need to escalate as long as it has U.S. support. Any attack by Palestinians has little effect and the response is many times as powerful. Without American support Israel's overwhelming superiority starts to decline and desperate measures may be proposed.
We have seen movement in the region towards accepting Israel in some form, despite accusations that the Palestinians are being sold out.
Right, violent anti-Semitism seems to be declining in the Middle East, for the most part. I think it's because they've so successfully purged their own Jewish populations, (They're doing cleanup on the Christian populations these days.) that they can treat the Jews as a remote annoyance, rather than an in their face offense.
I think he's referring to the friendlier diplomatic relationships between Israel and the surrounding Arab states, like Saudi Arabia or Egypt.
In that case, he's correct, because the ruling classes in many states seem to have realized that anti-Israel *behavior* gains them little on the international stage these days, even though local popular opinion is still vastly opposed to Israel. As a result, we've seen significant steps towards re/establishing official diplomacy, and trying to deal with the more... radical segments of the Arab populace.
I’m not sure how much clearer I can be, but I will try again. “Occupation of Palestine” doesn’t mean “the occupied territories,” it means ANY territory held by Israel, which means all of Israel, pre-1967, the 1948 partition plan, any inch of “Palestine.”
That's certainly what YOU mean by it, since it helps drive the idea that only military superiority and the opression of millions can save Israel from genocide. You're using future horrors inflicted on Israelis to justify present horros inflicted on Palestinians.
"That’s certainly what YOU mean by it, since it helps drive the idea that only military superiority and the opression of millions can save Israel from genocide."
So, how are Jews outside of Israel doing in the Middle East these days?
"That’s certainly what YOU mean by it,"
Feel free to email SJP Berkeley Law, and ask them whether they consider all of Israel to be part of the "occupation of Palestine" and whether "Zionist" includes anyone who supports Israel's existence. It's not like SJP's views are a secret.
As I recall, the Palestinian authority is still literally teaching genocide in it's school system, using maps that omit the existence of Israel, pretending the Holocaust didn't happen, and glorifying suicide bombers. So I don't see how a peaceful solution is up to Israel, it only takes one side to prevent peace.
Palestinian schoolbooks deny Holocaust, legitimize Munich massacre
You misunderstand: for groups like SJP, the existence of Israel is an occupation of Palestine.
Israel has tried many experiments, all of which have lead to attacks from even slightly empowered Pal's.
Sometimes you have to bet on civilization vs the barbarians.
"Sometimes you have to bet on civilization vs the barbarians."
Modern, educated, progressive, inclusive, liberal-libertarian mainstream communities rather than bigoted, superstitious, half-educated, deplorable, right-wing Republican communities? Good call!
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will, as always, decide how far and how long.
‘it was cleared up when Dean Chemerinsky wrote to the entire law school school student body that because he supports Israel’s existence, the rule would apply to him. Neither SJP nor any of the signators responded, “oh, no, we only meant people who support Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, or right-wing Zionists.”‘
Seems like he simply agrees with you that the two are interchangeable and anyone who not a right-wing Zionist is pro-genocide.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can be, but I will try again. "Occupation of Palestine" doesn't mean "the occupied territories," it means ANY territory held by Israel, which means all of Israel, pre-1967, the 1948 partition plan, any inch of "Palestine."
See reply above.
Your reply is simply to ignore the facts on the ground and live in pretend land. Israel evacuated Gaza. What is there now is a terrorist hellhole. They are not going to repeat that experiment in the West Bank. Any pressure to do so is simply inviting genocide.
And even worse, anti-Israel activists pretend that Gaza is still occupied by Israel.
" right-wing Zionist "
I guess you dismiss the Labor party founder of modern Israel as right wing. Just shows your own bigotry and closed mind
A commie killed JFK and eventually the anti-communists left the Democrat party.
A "Palestinian" killed RFK and the march towards Jew-hatred ramps up unabated amongst the various leftist parties.
I think the bad guys are winning...
Remember the leftists marching with their tiki torches chanting 'The Jews will not replace us?'
Your deflection -- FAIL
PS: Spencer and his socialists can pound sand (there are NO right-wing socialists)
You mean these clowns?
By the way, what is it with liberals listening to people say, "You will not replace us!" and hearing "Jews" instead? Some sort of projection, given how many open anti-Semites are thriving on your side of the aisle?
Wait, so are you denying that the Tiki group at Unite the Right even chanted "The Jews will not replace us?!'
I've listened to recordings, and I heard "you". I linked to one the SPLC hosts, above.
It was so blatant I was worried it would give tiki torches a bad name, the way the idiots gave Betsy Ross and the Ok sign a bad name!
And the word "patriot." It's now tinged with right-wing conspiracy context.
"In practice, given that the only way Israel will cease to exist in the foreseeable future is via military defeat that would result in the deaths, expulsion, and other horrors inflicted on the 7.5 million Jews in Israel,..."
It's already a binational state with half the population ruled by the other. Israel has made the two state solution untenable. Israel will go the way of South Africa: a democracy for all its citizens.
Have you seen how S Africa is going currently? It's not a positive thing.
Your math and facts are off.
Almost all Palestinians are governed by the Palestinian Authority. (A "democracy," which, notably, has not bothered to hold elections above the municipal level in almost two decades.)
How has it done that? By repeatedly offering it and having that offer rejected?
A response that would serve any purpose here requires cites and that means it's "now in moderation". Let's see if it shows up. And Abbas is a quisling. He has no real power. And settlements keep expanding.
You don't go into moderation if it's only one link. Actually, I think you can get away with two if you just provide the naked url instead of taking the time to do proper html.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/one
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/two
5 links and quotes. A history lesson.
I'll try it again without the links
Ronen Bergman, (political and military analyst for Yedioth Ahronoth) "Rise and Kill First A Secret History of Israel's Target Assassinations"
---By mid-September 1981, car bombs were exploding regularly in Palestinian neighborhoods of Beirut and other Lebanese cities. One went off in the Fakhani quarter of Beirut on October 1, killing eighty-three people and wounding three hundred, including many women who were trapped in a fire in a clothing factory owned by the PLO. Another one exploded next to the PLO headquarters in Sidon, killing twenty-three. In December 1981 alone, eighteen bombs in cars or on motorcycles, bicycles, or donkeys blew up near PLO offices or Palestinian concentrations, causing many scores of deaths.
A new and unknown organization calling itself the Front for the Liberation of Lebanon from Foreigners took responsibility for all of these incidents. The explosives were now packed in Ariel laundry powder bags so that if the cars were stopped at roadblocks, the cargo would look like innocent goods. The Israelis in some cases enlisted women to drive, to reduce the likelihood of the cars being caught on the way to the target zone.
The car bombs were developed in the IDF’s Special Operations Executive (Maarach Ha-Mivtsaim Ha-Meyuchadim), and they involved the use of one of the earliest generations of drones. These drones would relay the beam that would set off the detonation mechanism of the device. One of Dagan’s local agents would drive the car to the target, under aerial or land observation, park it there, and then leave. When the observers identified the moment they were waiting for, they’d push a button and the car would explode.---
WSJ How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas, Jan 24 2009
---Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.---
Use google for this one.
In 1986, while supporting Hamas, and ignoring protests by the Reagan administration, Israel deported Mubarak Awad a Christian pacifist and founder of The Palestinian Centre for the Study of Nonviolence.
If you want more on how Hamas has changed, that's easy. But Israel now relies on Hamas to keep Gaza under control, while Israel occasionally "mows the lawn"
Haaretz, Feb 2019 but you can find in the Jerusalem Post if you want
"With Israel’s Consent, Qatar Gave Gaza $1 Billion Since 2012
Last year Qatar gave Gaza $200 million for aid, fuel and government salaries – and is expected to provide hundreds of millions more this year"
Israel Mows the Lawn, LRB July 2014
---Had it been determined to end Hamas rule it could easily have done so, particularly while Hamas was still consolidating its control over Gaza in 2007, and without necessarily reversing the 2005 disengagement. Instead, it saw the schism between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority as an opportunity to further its policies of separation and fragmentation, and to deflect growing international pressure for an end to an occupation that has lasted nearly half a century. Its massive assaults on the Gaza Strip in 2008-9 (Operation Cast Lead) and 2012 (Operation Pillar of Defence), as well as countless individual attacks between and since, were in this context exercises in what the Israeli military called ‘mowing the lawn’: weakening Hamas and enhancing Israel’s powers of deterrence.---
Bernstein in his updated post: "Are Hamas's demands both unreasonable and genocidal?"
The correct answer is no.
Oddly enough, there is nothing in your post that suggests that Hamas' demands are neither unreasonable nor genocidal, it's just a laundry list of complaints about Israel, none of which justify Hamas being genocidal.
But they're not genocidal. And Yassin had accepted the reality of the Jewish state in the year before Israel killed him. They swore off suicide bombings in 2006. They won the election and Israel responded with a coup. Hamas keeps truces as Israel breaks them. It's been a fact for a long time. You want to talk about the 3 settler kids in 2014, remember it was in response to an Israeli sniper who killed two kids standing in the street. And that's on youtube. You want to go back a bit? Ok.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611
I can do this for hours. And again the car bombings of the Israel's fake "FLLF" predate Hamas and Hezbollah. Hundred of civilians burned alive in terrorist bombings, because Israel wanted open war.
Even expelling Palestinian Christian pacifists.
Israel wanted everything and now they have it. It's one state, and Palestinians will have equality. At this point your only real allies are Nazis and Salafists.
Times of Israel May 7 2020
"Yair Netanyahu is poster boy for a German far-right politician
AfD member Joachim Kuh using quote from PM’s son calling for death of EU and return of a ‘Christian’ Europe, together with a picture of him, in propaganda post"
You defend a "Christian Europe". You always did. I don't. And you defend Saudi Arabia, because democracy terrifies you.
"The anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies. We want to emigrate as respected people."
That's Herzl. You know the source. And here's his love letter to Cecil Rhodes.
"But it is a big—some say, too big—thing. To me it does not seem too big for Cecil Rhodes. This sounds like flattery; however, it does not reside in the words, but in the offer. If you participate, then you are the man. If you don’t, then I have simply made a mistake.
You are being invited to help make history. That cannot frighten you, nor will you laugh at it. It is not in your accustomed line; it doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor, not Engishmen, but Jews.
But had this been on your path, you would have done it yourself by now.
How, then, do I happen to turn to you, since this is an out-of-the- way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial, and because it presupposes understanding of a development which will take twenty or thirty years. There are visionaries who look past greater spaces of time, but they lack a practical sense. Then again there are practical people, like the trust magnates in America, but they lack political imagination. But you, Mr. Rhodes, are a vi sionary politician or a practical visionary. You have already demonstrated this. And what I want you to do is not to give me or lend me a few guineas, but to put the stamp of your authority on the Zionist plan and to make the following declaration to a few people who swear by you: I, Rhodes, have examined this plan and found it correct and practicable. It is a plan full of culture, excellent for the group of people for whom it is directly designed, not detrimental to the general progress of mankind, and quite good for England, for Greater Britain. If you and your associates supply the requested financial aid for this, you will, in addition to these satisfactions, have the satisfaction of making a good profit. For what is being asked for is money.
What is the plan? To settle Palestine with the homecoming Jewish people. "
Again, I have time. But the facts aren't on your side, unless you're willing to be honest about your beliefs. I used to drink with a Croatian Nazi and an Israeli ex-IDF. He was hardcore. I asked him if he thought Jews should have equal rights in Germany. He said "No". A Jewish state for a Jewish people and fair is fair. Zionism is as German as Yiddish. The Jews of of the ME weren't Zionist; they were trapped in the middle, and the Zionists treated them like sh-t. The Jewish population of Lebanon went up after 1948. It crashed when the Jews sided with England in the Suez crisis. That's enough for now.
Why not?
https://vintage.justworldnews.org/2008/03/condis-anti-hamas-plot-the-vanity-fair-version/
On the coup in 2006. Below is the author's comment on her own post, referring to her being tasked to deliver death threats to a Palestinian politician.
She's a Quaker. Her husband was on Nixon's NSC.
---I have written about it before. It was Ziad. The threat was conveyed to me by Ziad’s and my mutual friend Ze’ev Schiff, a decent man who had been extremely close to successive generations of the leaders of Israel’s security establishment for half a century before his death last year.
To be specific, when I spoke with Ze’ev on the phone before I went to Gaza in March 2006– and he did help me to get in– he asked if I was going to see Ziad, who was then widely reported to be considering an offer from Hamas to be Haniyeh’s Foreign Minister (as he subsequently became, during the brief life of the 2007 national unity government.) I said yes. He said– and he repeated this a couple of times to make sure I got the meaning clear– that I should tell Ziad he would face “the worst possible consequences” if he joined the Haniyeh government, and that he said this “on good authority.”
I did pass the message on to Ziad.
Ziad also faced considerable family-based pressure from the Americans since his three children from his first marriage were at college here in the US, and I suppose if he had joined the Haniyeh government and then tried to visit them here he could be arraigned on all kinds of charges of aiding and abetting terrorists. But Ze’ev’s words about “the worst possible consequences” struck me as constituting a more severe and immediate threat. ---
Certainly couldn't have been the Paleatinian rocket attacks and suicide terror attacks of peace.
It looks like most of the comments are on whether support for the “occupation of Palestine” equates to support for the existence of Israel. Maybe, maybe not. But, that’s a question to be asked of the student groups who signed the statement rather than being speculated upon by David, Erwin or the commenters.
What struck me was the lawsuit which equated the no-invite policy (based on whatever belief about Israel it may be) to discrimination against Jews. Given there are Jews that would be allowed to speak and non-Jews who would not, it seems to me be discrimination on the basis of viewpoint, rather than religion, unless it can be proven that the policy is “almost always selectively enforced against Jews.”
Josh, this is the same argument that is made in the same-sex wedding cake cases, to wit. "Some non-gay customers will purchase wedding cakes for same-sex weddings, and some gay customers will purchase other cakes," therefore, declining to sell cakes for same-sex weddings doesn't amount to discrimination against gays, as such. I think there is much to be said for that logic. However, (a) it's been universally rejected by courts and adminsitrative agencies so far, on the theory that same-sex weddings are so closely associated with sexual orientation that discriminating against such weddings is anti-gay discrimination and (b) the same left-wing groups who would deny that the "Zionist" ban is discrimination against Jews would generally be the first to strongly agree with those courts and agencies, and more generally to expansively interpret what constitutes "discrimination" against a group. So at the very least, you have them advocating a special standard for antisemitism as opposed to other isms, which is itself (that is, the double standard) anti-Jewish.
Whether that logic applies or not comes down to the strength of the inference that a supporter of Israel is practically always going to be Jewish and vice versa.
I would imagine that you would want to stay away from pushing that inference. If, generally speaking, Jews support Israel and non-Jews don't, Israel's not going to last much longer.
By your argument, what counts as discrimination against gays would depend on how popular gay rights are with non-gays. Is that really what you believe?
No. Man you don’t know how to follow logical arguments, why are you trying?
David and I agree that you can’t get away with something like, “I don’t discriminate against Jews, I just discriminate against people who look Jewish.”
David is saying that’s true here too, that is, “I don’t discriminate against Jews, I just discriminate against people who support Israel” is equivalent. But if support for Israel is that strong of a proxy for being Jewish, Israel is in real trouble.
I’m sure you’re still not following the argument, so go back to 8chan, it’s more your speed.
This is a bit off topic... but yes, that's 100% true. It's true of pretty much all civil rights movements in US history. Oppressed minorities don't start gaining civil rights until they convince a certain percentage of the oppressing majority that they're not bad people and should be given those rights.
It's still technically discrimination before and after, but before the notion that homosexuals were decent people caught on with heterosexuals, the discrimination was considered appropriate because homosexuals were sick, horrible, child-molesters. In this context, it only becomes unacceptable discrimination after a significant percentage of the population begins to see it as such. (And even then, we still get the "Don't Say Gay" laws and have state governors going after drag queens.)
shawn_dude....We differ in viewpoint on many things, but I appreciated this response. Totally made sense to me. It dovetails with my observations in my lifetime, too.
"the discrimination was considered appropriate because homosexuals were sick, horrible, child-molesters."
"And even then, we still get the “Don’t Say Gay” laws and have state governors going after drag queens."
Let's start out with the objective fact that there aren't any "Don't Say Gay" laws. Because it's really hard to have a productive discussion once somebody insists on staring out with a lie. There literally are no Don't Say Gay laws. Don't exist. They're called that because the left doesn't want people thinking about what these laws actually prohibit.
Moving on from that, you have to move on to the fact that they're not going after drag queens in general, they're going after drag queens targeting children.
So, I think it's a case of, "If homosexuals don't want to be thought of as "sick, horrible, child-molesters", they need to rid themselves of sick, horrible, child-molesters. They need to rid themselves of the faction that's going after children.
Um, you just exactly described "don't say gay." Do you not see that? If gay people can't be gay in front of kids, that's "don't say gay."
"Whether that logic applies or not comes down to the strength of the inference that a supporter of Israel is practically always going to be Jewish and vice versa."
No, the inference only has to be that just as same-sex weddings are closely associated with gays, vocal support for Israel is closely associated with Jews. And indeed, when people have been harassed and whatnot on campus by SJP and the like-minded at universities, every single case has involved a Jew.
But vocal support for Israel is *not* closely associated with Jews. Probably, the minority of vocal supporters of Israel are Jewish.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. If there was a urinal with a sign that said "anti-feminists only," would you say that the urinal discriminates against women? (Assume that feminism-agnostic urinals are not considered to discriminate against women just by being urinals, in the same way that it's not antisemitic to not be Jewish.)
Same-sex weddings are conduct closely associated with being gay (it’s not the purchase that’s material – it’s how the cake is used). In contrast, support for Israel is an opinion.
The correct analogy to this case is requiring a speaker to support Obergefell as being incorrect. Doing so would not be discrimination against gays.
MEanwhile, the useful idiots around here might do well to consider what their policy will lead to, apart from killing lots of Jews:
Gay Palestinian Beheaded And Paraded Through West Bank Streets In Sickening Display
https://www.dailywire.com/news/gay-palestinian-beheaded-and-paraded-through-west-bank-streets-in-sickening-display
Phew! I'm so relieved that similar anti-gay violence isn't perpetrated by Jews in Israel.
Also this.
Why don't you ask some Palestinian gays which country gays are safer in?
David,
I’ve read your update and the comments. I understand your interpretation of “occupation of Palestine” and that you believe based off of Dean Chemerinsky’s letter, he holds the same interpretation. I still think that’s a pretty big leap to believe that is what the entirety of the SJP means without bylaws or group members acknowledging the same interpretation. I’m sure that there are SJP members who do indeed hold that interpretation, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is monolithic or even the majority interpretation held by the members. Absent better evidence of that, I do believe this is overwrought. I know you disagree and that is okay.
As I've told others, feel free to reach out to SJP Berkeley to clarify. I guarantee you won't get anywhere...
I do agree that not all, and perhaps not any, of the other student groups that signed understood the implications of what they signed. However, they do now, given that Dean Chemerinsky set those out for them explicitly (that even as a harrsh leftist critic of Israel, he'd still be banned from speaking because he thinks Israel should exist) and none have thus far revoked their agreement.
David, you can’t have it both ways.
Yes, in theory a peaceful transition from Israel to “Palestine” could occur, but let’s acknowledge that this is highly unlikely.
Rather, as noted previously, there is a pledge to disinvite any speaker who thinks Israel should exist, regardless of its policies.
No. Israel could change its policies in a way that satisfied the student groups. You just happen to think Israel is unlikely to do so.
The only thing that Israel could do to satisfy the student groups is to dissolve and let a bunch of genocidal incompetents take over.
When you strip away all the hand-wringing, there's nothing of substance. David, you've never had a coherent response to charges like the student groups', other than just sort of "suck it."
There's oppression happening within and around Israel.
The oppression is due to a conflict.
Israel is the aggressor in that conflict by at least two modes of reasoning. Palestine is the aggressor only in the rather unsatisfying "please calm down and accept your defeat and subjugation" line of thinking.
Additionally, Israel is an apartheid nation.
It just doesn't look good for Israel. What do you think should be done about it? Hint: Justifying the situation through whataboutism isn't working anymore.
The student groups' charges are that Israel should be destroyed and all the Jews driven out. "No" is a perfectly sound and justified response to those charges.
"Israel is the aggressor in that conflict by at least two modes of reasoning."
Both historically blind modes. Why don't you share your "modes of reasoning."
1. As the invaders
2. As the occupiers of the "occupied territory"
https://www.zochrot.org/testimonies/view/54345/en?____
E: You took part in Operation Broom?
YK: I was a machine gunner.
E: What type?
YK: Browning.
E: You were a machine gunner in what? In Operation Broom?
YK: Yes.
E: What is Operation Broom and what was its objective?
YK: We cleared all the villages…
E: What do you mean?
YK: We cleared one village after another and expelled – expelled them, they fled to the Sea of Galilee and from there to the Galilee.
E: But how? How?
YK: You mean by shooting?
E: How do you mean?
YK: We shot, we threw a grenade here and there. Just listen – there's one thing you have to understand: at first, once they heard shots they took off with the intention of returning later.
E: But, wait a sec, that was before May 15, that was before the Arab armies came.
Operation Broom, Operation Broom then. How does it happen? Do you receive any information? Is it an organized campaign?
YK: Yeah, sure.
E: Tell me.
YK: It was. Who was it? Yigal Allon himself planned it. We moved from one place to the next.
E: What places? Can you tell me?
YK: We passed, we passed by Tiberias and moved from one village to the other, from one to the next.
E: So you had orders to expel and clean up the villages?
YK: And then go home.
E: But you did see how they ran away?
YK: We saw them, what do you think? I fired at them with that – with the Browning – on the boats.
E: They fled on boats?
YK: Yes.
E: On the Sea of Galilee?
YK: Yes. On the other side they had more [villages], except [Kibbutz] Ein Gev [which was the only Jewish settlement on the east bank].
E: And who were the people who fled?
YK: Village people, they were fishermen, among other things. Then it was Lod.
E: Wait a minute. We'll get to that.
YK: Ramle. We entered the houses only in one place, in Balad al-Sheikh, near Yagur. There it was really, murderous and all that. And he said, you go there with axes.
E: Who did?
YK: Only one man could – Yigal Allon. And I assume there was no misunderstanding between him and Ben Gurion, no. "So go there with axes, let them get lost, leave no trace. As much as you can, don't use any bullets, so that they won't hear it at the [British] police [station in Yagur] and, so that they won't send them reinforcements.
"When you strip away all the hand-wringing, there’s nothing of substance. David, you’ve never had a coherent response to charges like the student groups’, other than just sort of 'suck it.'"
There are not charges, just a desire for Israel to disappear, regardless of the fate of the 7.5 million Jews who live there. I suppose you can claim that they are saying that Israel is an apartheid state. But if you ask them when Israel became an apartheid state, I guarantee you that the answer would be 1948, when it was founded. Or better yet, you can ask them (a) if Israel ever was not an apartheid state; and (b) if Israel could do anything, beyond becoming "Palestine," that would make it not an apartheid state.
You could ask them that, but instead you choose to assume that they're entirely unreasonable and therefore unworthy of engagement. Never going to get anywhere that way.
As in all politics, of course people are going to put their views in terms of inviolable (and therefore extreme-seeming) principles. But when it comes to solutions, good solutions are (almost) always iterative, and so just moving in the right direction would go a long way towards dissolving the anti-Israel advocacy.
Take the apartheid charge. Who cares when they think it started? The problem is that Israel appears to be embracing and entrenching its apartheidhood with laws like the Nationality Bill. What even was the point of that if not to double-down on the sort of positioning that Israel's critics label as being apartheid?
None of these people actually want the Jews to be exterminated, obviously.
This reminds me of a well-known cartoon, showing Israel negotiating with the Palestinians. Israel says something like, "we are willing to give up land for peace." The Palestinians say, "we would only be satisfied if every Jew in Israel is either killed or expelled." And "the West" as mediators, turn to Israel and say, "Can't you be reasonable and meet them halfway?"
Yes, and that would be a fine stance for Israel to take if it weren't the oppressor.
Do you think Israel isn't the oppressor, or do you think it just has no choice?
Since 1948, Israel has continually offered to negotiate for a peaceful settlement, and has done so successfully with parties that negotiatedin good faith (Egypt, Jordan). It tried to do so with Arafat, and, recognizing that he had to either agree to peace or make war to distract his people, chose the latter. That (and the fact that in the ensuing 22 years, the Palestinans still have never submitted any peace offer, and have no intention of doing so) is the entire reason the conflict has continued for the last 22 years. Conflict includes a continued state of war. States of war between terrorist entities and existing states involve casualties. Some of those casualties are innocent Palestinians. They have their own leaders to blame.
So, no choice. Which is what I thought, it's consistent with your previous comments. And you may be right (and, fwiw, I think you basically are).
But as the occupier, it puts Israel in a bad spot, and it doesn't seem to be trying very hard to get out of that spot. Instead it's doing things like passing the Nationality Bill. Do you see how that's at least an optics problem? For how long do you think Israel has a free pass to go on oppressing the Palestinians?
When the palestinians love their own children more than they hate Jews, there will be peace.
And, here's the proof of why SJP has a point. People like you are just blatantly racist against Palestinians / Arabs and still think it's a-ok. That seems like an easy thing to change.
If you think your comment isn't outrageously racist, it's because your hate is so deep it doesn't even register consciously anymore. Sick and sad, and why people are getting frustrated with Israel.
I never thought anything good could ever come out of Berkeley.
Seems to me the reaction to this is largely defined by (or congruent with) one's approach to disparate impact. If you believe disparate impact is a big deal, then yes, "nobody who doesn't support the dismantling of Israel" approaches "no Jews".
That's partly true. It's also true that this statement seems part and parcel of a nationwide SJP campaign to specifically try to excude Jews from progressive spaces unless they (and no one else) will specifically denounce Israel's existence. There are numerous incidents along the same lines at other universities.
Interesting reading the thinly-veiled anti-Semitism in some of the comments.
What do you all propose to do with the Jews currently in Israel when Israel stops existing?
Do you honestly think that they will be afforded respect, rights and citizenship?
Is there any other country in the middle east where any minorities (much less Jews) are treated in such a manner?
In a great deal of the Middle East, Christians are the current targets of genocide, just because they ran out of Jews to go after; They're done genociding the Jews.
Who do these Berkeley students think they are?
Ron DeSantis?
The Liberty, Regent, and Ave Maria students (or faculty, or administrators . . .)?
Texas legislators?
One is reminded of the movement for a free Germany in the 1930s.
" Hamas, for example, explicitly seeks to replace Israel with "Palestine" and expel all Jews whose ancestors weren't in "Palestine" by 1898. "
That sounds terrible. It's as bad as Israeli government policy and conduct.
Correct me if I’m wrong on this, but the main opposition to Israel was originally because Israel was a US and western ally in the Middle East and pro-Soviet communists and socialists at the time wanted Soviet hegemony over that entire region.
And now that the Soviets lost the cold war and their influence has faded, the modern opposition to Israel is a combination of holdovers from that era, other anti-westerners of various ideologies, and the people who have been emotionally influenced by them.
Is that about right? If not, why do non-bigots outside Gaza take sides against Israel?
Two reasons, same root problem. The root problem is that Israel seems to be happy with the status quo, even though that status quo is oppressive to Palestinians. It’s sort of a “gross negligence” argument.
The two supporting reasons are a) Israel treats Arabs as second-class citizens even within Israel and b) Israel continues to engage in provocative and aggressive behavior towards the occupied territories such as by expanding settlements.
I'm sure Israel would actually prefer a situation where the Palestinians weren't led/ruled over by genocidal killers, to the status quo, so, no, I don't think they're happy with the status quo, they just prefer it to anything that's currently actually on offer.
Well, the counterarguments to that are a) and b) above.
In any other Middle Eastern country, religious minorities are more like 23rd class citizens. Most of the nations of the Middle East have pretty much finished their genocides against the Jews, and are engaged in clean up operations in genociding Christians.
So, keep in mind that Israel is actually the freest Middle Eastern country in this regard. Yeah, if you're a member of a religion that has as a tenet committing genocide against the dominant group in a country, (And has where they could!) and that country isn't suicidal, they're not going to accord you full rights. We have it pretty easy in that regard here, what with Muslims only having been a fraction of a percent of our population until very recently indeed. (And still punching above their weight in terms of terrorism.) That lets us survive ignoring ugly facts.
Facts Israel is not in a position to ignore.
For sure, but how many pro-Saudi-Arabian-apartheid speakers do you think these groups have? It's just not a thing. Everyone agrees that oppression by all the other countries is bad, it's only Israel that gets a pass.
"Everyone agrees that oppression by all the other countries is bad…"
This is false. Leftists support and/or tolerate oppression whenever it serves their purposes or when the victims are politically unfashionable.
A. Dems treat non-Dems and non-BIPOC Americans as second class citizens. You should be applauding Israel for following your lead.
Southern African countries treat racial minorities as second class. Do you care? (No, you don’t.)
B. Lots of countries do lots of things that someone might question. What’s it to you?
What’s it to you?
Lol yep, who really cares about human rights abuses anyway, right?
Of course that’s your answer. I might've known.
You’re very interested in so-called "human rights abuses" when those charges coincide with legacy pro-Soviet interests against the west.
Also, building houses and housing people (aka "settlements") isn’t a human rights abuse. It’s very close to the opposite of a human rights abuse.
Additionally, you didn’t answer. What’s it to you?
A. What’s your opinion of the way Tamils are treated in Sri Lanka?
You must be very interested in how minorities are treated in every foreign country to follow the fortunes of Arab Israelis. Either that or you are just parroting talking-points from pro-Soviet legacy propagandists (perhaps without knowing it).
Do you really think I haven't heard of the Tamils? What point are you even trying to make here other than a grotesque version of America First in which it might be nice but is just too much work to care about human rights in all these other countries, I mean there are so many!
When David Bernstein posts a piece justifying the continued oppression of the Tamils, don't worry, I'll be there.
I really think you don’t know anything about any of these people and you just parrot pro-Soviet legacy talking points, yes.
I think anti-western, and especially anti-American prejudice is the main driver of most leftist and Democrat ideas.
And the more you claim to know about any of this stuff, the more you look like an anti-American, anti-western leader rather than just someone naively repeating words.
That's pretty hilarious. I always thought of democracy and human rights as being what westernism is all about. You somehow think it's anti-western to be advocating for oppressed minorities around the world? Man, you are really in the grip.
I think your interest in "human rights" ends (or is reversed) when there’s no anti-American and anti-western advantage to talking about it.
It’s Alinsky rule #4: Make opponents live up to their own book of rules.
And Israel still has to deal with people like you because the Soviets wanted to defeat the west and therefore Israel, and got this stuff going, and you’re still the same people pushing the same objectives riding on that momentum.
You haven’t said anything to contradict that or even suggest otherwise.
I don't care at all about justifying myself to you, in case you haven't noticed, let me make that clear. I know it's very important for you to think that the left hates America since it's a key part of your culty upbringing, and I also know there's nothing I can say to make you stop thinking that. I just like pointing out the obvious faults in your worldview for funsies. And I suppose for the entertainment and edification of the Volokh commentariat at large.
Understood. Tormenting Americans is what you do for shits and giggles.
And you have nothing to say to suggest I am wrong about any of the above. You don’t even deny it.
Tormenting Americans is what you do for shits and giggles.
Only the bad ones!
Never the special people. On the contrary, the emotions of the special people must always be catered to.
You consider it open season on the rest of us.
Also … something, something "human rights"….
It’s all very, very convincing.
Naw, what makes you a bad American is statements like this:
I think anti-western, and especially anti-American prejudice is the main driver of most leftist and Democrat ideas.
And like I said, I realize I have no hope of convincing you of anything.
The fact you still haven’t denied it says enough.
You're gay.
Huh. Well, you said it yourself. No denial, so it's true!
David Bernstein’s Guide to Fascism:
1. Our policies keep our people safe
2. Criticism of our policies is therefore tantamount to genocide
3. And since our policies cannot be legitimately criticized,
4. Our actions are entirely unconstrained.
Once again, there is no criticism of any policies by Israel in SJP's statement, just a boycott of any potential speaker who thinks Israel should exist, regardless of how critical that speaker is of any or many Israeli policies.
There is absolutely criticism of policies, in particular these three:
1. Zionism
2. Apartheid
3. The Occupation of Palestine
So, those seem pretty straightforward. Stop claiming a God-given right to the land, at least officially. End official apartheid. And end the occupation of Palestine, or at least have a policy towards that aim.
You're just not even going to engage, though, and claim that SJP is acting in bad faith and/or that addressing one or more of those criticisms would lead inevitably to genocide (#2) and therefore no criticisms can be addressed (#3).
1) Zionism isn't a policy.
2) There is no "official apartheid." Or unofficial.
3) Again: by "occupation" they mean "existence of Israel."
See? Well, you're not DB but still. Complete refusal to engage, in order to protect Israel's ability to treat Arabs as badly as it wants.
Anyway...
1. Great, then this one's easy. I assume it means we won't be hearing about Zionism from Israel anymore?
2. Then I'm sure that Israel won't mind repealing the Nationality Law and replacing it with an Equal Rights Bill.
3. Maybe, maybe not. How about starting with less occupation, and see how it goes? Like, stop doing new settlements for example.
See? Policy engagement is possible! You just don't want to engage since it implies that Israel might have some room to improve.
I have no idea what this means.
In what way do you think the "Nationality Law" equates to "apartheid"?
What new settlements? And Israel already started with less occupation, and saw how it went: Gaza became a terrorist haven.
I knew you had it in you! Doesn’t engaging feel better than just assuming everyone’s secretly antisemitic? Now you’ve put the moral ball in SJP’s court to justify their definitions of apartheid etc. rather than just calling them names and hoping no one will notice. People are noticing.
"Now you’ve put the moral ball in SJP’s court to justify their definitions of apartheid...." Uh, yeah. When someone makes an accusation that's denied, it's generally the accuser's job to then provide evidence for the accuastion.
I feel like that's what I just said...?
There’s another angle to this that you guys are missing. Under a less crazy reading of the SJP statement, you would not be targetted.
You don’t support Zionism as official policy.
You don’t support apartheid in any capacity.
I suspect you don’t support the occupation as much as you find it unfortunate but necessary.
So, an A+ from SJP. Maybe. I certainly think that’s a more plausible read of the statement than “we only want speakers who support the extermination of the Jews” like you (and DB) say.
Here's the practical element: Unless Israel stops making support for its ugly, immoral conduct a left-right divider in American politics (and stops cuddling with Republicans, Trump, and Netanyahu, and Likud) it is likely to pay a severe price for meddling in American politics and choosing the wrong side of history and the losing end of the American culture war.
Most Americans do not wish to subsidize right-wing belligerence (especially when laced with old-timey, bigoted superstition) at home; what kind of fools expect America's liberal-libertarian mainstream to accept subsidizing that bullshit anywhere else? At great and varied cost, no less.
Younger Americans and educated Americans, in particular, seem disinclined to continue that course. Israel, like anti-abortion absolutists and gun nuts, has tied its political wagon to conservative-Republican political fortunes. As America becomes less White, less rural, less religious, less backward, and less bigoted, floating or sinking with Republicans seems a sad prospect.
If Israel wants to determine how it might fare without America's economic, military, and political skirts to operate behind, it is following the proper course.
Carry on, clingers. So far as right-wing thinking can take you in a modern, improving world, that is.
I usually prefer not to engage with your, Kirkland, but I'd like to hear your "peace plan" for Israel. What, precisely, is Israel doing that's immoral, and what you do in its place that would not compromise its security?
I hope to see a world in which Israel exists without occupying territory and imposing brutal conditions on those it deems second-class citizens. One way to arrange that might be to admit Israel as a state of the United States of America. Another way would be to establish reasonable borders for Israel and defuse the silly, superstition-driven animosity that cripples the relevant region. If that can not be done, I would consider offering American citizenship to every Israeli.
(I also would like to see an Israel without a superstition-laced government that flatters backwardness, belligerent ignorance, and old-timey bigotry, in which regard I view Israel no differently from any other country. Countries that privilege Christianity, Christians, Muslims, Islam, and/or any other flavor of religion one might identify are just as bad and should improve, too.)
Israel's conduct in the occupied territories is immoral. Just as I believe American right-wingers who applaud and facilitate Israel's right-wing belligerence are increasing prospects for a bad future for Israel (in large part by increasing the likelihood Americans will lose their taste for subsidizing and defending Israel), and I believe Israel's violent, abusive conduct in those territories increases risk to Israel.
In general, I don't like Israel's right-wingers any more than I like America's right-wingers. Like most Americans, I don't support conservative belligerence anywhere in the world. I believe Israel should be required to pay a substantial price for taking sides -- the wrong side, in my judgment -- in American politics.
So Israel should give the Palestinians their own government and offer them a state in the West Bank and Gaza. Except they tried that with Oslo and Camp David, and the Palestinians refused to go along.
Professor Bernstein, thanks for this post. I have a different question for you, that as an American and a Jew, have very much on mind today….namely, Where is all of this going?
I am very worried by the recent (last decade) rise in antisemitic actions (not just words) in America. In NYC, it is dangerous to wear a kippah on the subway, or even walking on a city street. Jews are literally being attacked in the streets for the ‘crime’ of being Jewish. In Jersey City, Jews are gunned down in the street and their place of business. Our synagogues are attacked. These things have happened. I have never before felt fear living in America, being Jewish. I look around, I see what is happening in contemporary American society, and now the internal alarm bells in my conscience are telling me there is more than just a problem here.
How much worse will this trend of rising antisemitism get, is my real question? I cannot believe that in 2022 America I am actually contemplating (in the back of my mind) the ‘What if’ question of: What if you have to leave the US because you are a Jew….and where would you go? A decade ago, those thoughts and questions never even entered my consciousness. Now they are.
If you see this post, could you comment? I would like to hear your view on my question(s). Because I am now truly thinking these thoughts (e.g. what if) and it is very unsettling.
And Professor Bernstein, Chag Semeach Sukkot.
(As an aside, I read your contributions to TOI, and have enjoyed them. I hope to read more in the future.)
There flags bern no general increase in antisemitism. What there has been is increasingly vocal and sometimes violent antisemitism coming from the political extremes, who are no longer filtered by the establishment.” This is part of a general phenomenon of everyone going nuts in the age of social media where conspiracy theories, bigotry, and so on that was once relegated to the margins now has a significant voice in both parties. Also, the far left, which has long had a big antisemitism problem, has much more power than it’s had at least in my lifetime, and the “normal” left seems to have lost the will to defend liberalism. I can’t really predict where this is going, but the trajectory isn’t good.
Any thoughts on what will be -- and should be -- the consequences (from the American perspective) of Israel's embrace of Netanyahu and Likud, its cuddling with Trump and hostility toward Obama, and the attempts to make support of Israel's right-wing belligerence a left-right divider in American politics?
Should overtly siding with the losing side of America's culture war and the wrong side of history precipitate consequences for Israel and its supporters? How could those who have created the problem make amends?
Arthur, I think the best response is to increase aid to Israel. 🙂
When America stops providing military support, economic aid, and political cover to Israel, I will think of your comment, Commenter_XY (as well as Prof. Bernstein's commentary), and wonder why those who supported Israel didn't do better.
Once again David Bernstein cuts through the BS and clearly identifies the threat to Jews not only in Israel, but in the United States at the Berkeley University.
I believe an important threat to Jews and Israel is the right-wing conduct -- right-wing belligerence involving Israel's conduct and policies, Israel's partisanship with respect to American politics, making support for Israel's objectionable right-wing conduct a left-right divider in American politics -- that sensibly inclines an increasing number of Americans to lose interest in subsidizing, defending, and rewarding Israel.
On twitter, I asked Professor Bernstein if one could be a critic of Israel and not be anti-Semitic. His response (non-response) was to ask me if any critics of Israel are anti-Semitic. I replied in the affirmative. What can reasonably be inferred from his unwillingness to frankly answer my simple question?
I’m a critic of Israel (on some issues) and I’m not antisemitic. No one in the entire world thinks that merely criticizing Israel is antisemitic. The only reasons people asks such a stupid questionI is because they want to imply that because either that because criticism of Israel isn’t inherently antisemitic, that no criticism of Israel is antisemitic, or to imply that defenders of Israel only defend Israel because they are fanatics who think any criticism is antisemitic. If you had some other reasonfor asking such a stupid question, feel free to explain.
Been following this topic for decades and have yet to encounter a critique of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians that ISN’T met to with charges of antisemitism.
Israel should take much stricter actions to crack down on unauthorized settlements in the West Bank, and on “settlers” who harass Palestinians. See? Criticism. Not antisemitic. Now go away.
So your saying that the critique of Israeli settlement expansion and settler terrorism hasn’t been called antisemitic?
Also, I find it hilarious and telling that the only example of non-antisemitic criticism you chose is basically “Israel could be a little more strict with the hilltop youth when they break Israeli law (even though they definitely have the right to be there so don’t call them settlers and they’re just harassing the Palestinians so don’t call them terrorists)”.
In other words, if anyone goes beyond the only thing you personally believe Israel could be better at regarding the Palestinians, the most milk toast and equivocating critique of the daily terrorism and land theft committed by the most violent extremists in Israel, then you deserve to be called an antisemite because that’s what you are.
Support for Israel and Zionism is much more closely correlated with evangelical Christians than Jews. So if your going to make the ridiculous claim that viewpoint discrimination amounts to bigotry against an entire religious group, why doesn’t Mr Bernstein write about Berkeley’s “evangelical Christian-free” zones? I suspect it’s because the absurdity of his argument would be immediately apparent.
Name an evangelical Christian student at any university who has been harassed for being a supporter of Israel, But there are lots of Jews.
First of all that’s completely irrelevant to the point. Zionism is much more closely correlated with evangelicals than Jews. Hence if you’re going to absurdly claim that a prohibition on Zionists amounts to discrimination against a religious group, well evangelicals are the group most negatively impacted.
Second, evangelical Zionist groups aren't (to my knowledge) all that active in universities. Whereas there are literally dozens of Jewish Israel advocacy groups dedicated to fighting anti-Zionism on college campuses. If CUFI on Campus (I just googled it, they exist) set up a chapter at Berkeley and started doing aggressive pro-Israel advocacy in the main quad or whatever, you know as well as I do how SJP and allied groups would respond exactly the same as they do to the Jewish Zionist orgs.
Whenever you hear someone from the pro-Israel side accusing SJP or allied groups of opposing the existence of Israel (rather than just the post 1967 occupation), please understand that they’re referring to Israel’s existence *as a state that privileges Jews*, which is the essential quality of Israel and its entire reason for existing. Now ask yourself whether it’s reasonable for Palestinians (who make up about half the population under Israeli control, and who were living there when the state was founded) to be opposed to that.
Both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas promise a “Palestine” based on sharia, thus inherently privileging Muslims far more than Israel “privileges” Jews. If this bothers any of the activists who claim to oppose Israel for the reason you suggest, I have yet to encounter it. And as detailed in Benny Morris’ One State, Two States, any Palestinians willing to countenance a binational state or similar arrangements were murdered or intimidated into silence by the dominant faction, leaving Jewish advocates of such a solution with nothing to go on. Finally, the dominant Palestinian nationalist faction wants either 2 Palestinian Muslim states, one only Arab Muslim, and one with a maybe-tolerated Jewish minority, or one state with few if any Jews, the rest murdered or expelled. Few if any Palestinian nationalists are willing to publicly state that a Palestinian state should be contingent on the rights if she wish Israelis being protected. Again, this bothers their supporters not at all. So spare me the suggestion that the underlying problem is inequality in Israel. Arab citizens in Israel have far greater equality than Jews in an Arab Palestine hope for in the best of circumstances. (Which is why the trending trope is that Israeli Jews are “settler colonialists” and therefore have no rights.)
You’re basically saying it’d be too dangerous to grant those barbaric Arabs equal rights and so Israel must oppress them indefinitely. It’s an argument not worth rebutting. It’s sufficient to simply expose the dripping racism driving your ideology.
"Both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas promise a “Palestine” based on sharia"
Fatah is secular and socialist; that's why Israel supported Hamas. I've already said this here, with cites https://reason.com/volokh/2022/10/07/berkeley-laws-jew-free-zone-controversy/?comments=true#comment-9736708
It's common knowledge in Israel and you know it too, and that's why you don't respond to me, and just start again with someone else.
Ilan Halevi was a Jewish member of the PLO executive committee. George Habash the founder of the PFLP was a Christian.
You didn't want peace; you wanted conquest and now you have it, a single state. And your rule won't last. You equate democracy and equality with genocide. You ally yourselves with white Christians who use racist slanders against Muslims that they used against Jews, and still do in private. You identify with Europeans. Palestinian Christians are the oldest Christian community in the world. They're the original Christians, including descendants of Jewish converts. And you identify with Christians who think Jesus was white.
"You" No one in my father's family can pass as white. They're Ashkenazi and they still look like "Arabs", people from the Levant
Israel was founded on land that used to be Mandatory Palestine.
If by Palestine you mean "Mandatory Palestine, after Transjordan was broken off," otherwise known as "from the river to the sea," which is precisely what SJP means, then, no, Israel can't exist if it can't "occupy" any of the land that it currently exists on.
I don't disagree with your point. I was basically taking DB at face value and assuming that it's an anti-Jewish policy, since that's his premise.
But the vast majority of non-Jews in America aren’t controlling who activists on campus attack or attempt to silence, now, are we? I mean, the vast majority of American wouldn’t beat somebody with a bike lock just because they didn’t agree with their politics, either. (Nor would we expect to get such a favorable plea agreement if we did.)
The people who actually DO these sorts of things are outliers. Heck, the SS in German were outliers. Doesn’t matter much so long at the majority are intimidated into letting them do what they want.
If they didn't know then, they know now. Dean Chemerinsky, who is far from a right-winger, said so explicitly in his letter that went out to all students. And none of them have revoked their signature.
did the student groups who signed the pledge know/understand that’s “precisely” what they were signing on to?
QA,
I don't think that's much of an excuse. In fact, it's pretty silly coming from law students.
That's not the part that was misleading and inaccurate, but, no, I was referencing his oped, several weeks earlier he wrote an email to all students noting that the policy would exclude him, and none of the groups in question clarified that no, in fact it would not apply to someone like him.
If you want a sound analogy, it would be if Hillel had successfully lobbied other organizations to ban any speaker who supported the existence of a Palestinian state, regardless of any caveats. That has never happened.
So you think their letter is in the mail?
‘But the vast majority of non-Jews in America aren’t controlling who activists on campus attack or attempt to silence, now, are we?’
What are you talking about Republicans go ballistic every time students and/or activists object to some speaker or other. Of course, you’re not a vast majority by any means…
It's a simple fact. The Palestinians do not want the two-state solution, and refuse to agree to it. Any attempt at doing that has led to disaster and suffering. If that's bigotry, then it's bigotry.
Yeah, noticing suicide bombings and rocket barrages is bigotry.
The PA launched an intifada instead of accepting a two state solution years ago.
It is time for THEM to make the proposals.
Here's what a relatively liberal famed advocate of Palestinian nationalism, Edward Said had to say:
Q. Knowing the region and given the history of the conflict, do you think such a Jewish minority [in an Arab-majority state in what is now Israel/the Palestinian territories] would be treated fairly?
“A worry about that. The history of minorities in the Middle East has not been as bad as in Europe, but I wonder what would happen. It worries me a great deal. The question of what is going to be the fate of the Jews is very difficult for me. I really don’t know. It worries me.”
Give Said points for honesty at least. He does go on to say that a “Jewish minority can survive the way other minorities in the Arab world survived.” He was writing before the Islamic State starting butchering Christians, Yazidis and other minorities, but the fate of other minorities in the modern Arab world has hardly been a happy one. While Said suggests that “it worked rather well under the Ottoman Empire,” that empire, of course, was run by Turks, with the Arabs themselves a “minority” that needed to be pacified.
Anyway, for the record, let’s note that Said hoped that the Jews would be treated fairly under his proposed solution, but seemed to accept the very real possibility of the oppression/ethnic cleansing of the Jews of Israel as a price worth paying for his cause to triumph. And while he suggests the possibility that Jews would “survive” and “live peacefully” in “Palestine,” he doesn’t seem to deny that Jews would most likely “be at best, a suppressed minority.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/09/29/the-one-state-solution-and-the-brutal-honesty-of-edward-said/
Gaza was an experiment to see if the Palestinians can handle a degree of independence. Had it turned out to be the Singapore of the Middle East, as some hoped, then 75% of Israelis would be begging to do the same in the West Bank. It turned out to be a colossal failure, which some here want repeated on a larger scale.
The way I see it, it's kind of like Don Knots goes after Arnold Schwarzenegger with a switch blade, and resumes trying to cut him up every time Arnie tries to put him down. The optics are terrible, but what are they supposed to do, stand there and get carved up?
The Palestinians couple genocidal ambition with a distinct lack of capacity, but is the latter really supposed to cause us to ignore the former? It's not the Palestinians' fault they can't manage to successfully genocide the Jews, they certainly try.
Denying the obvious, that "Zionist" means "supports the existence of Israel" and "occupation of Palestine" mean "the river to the sea" may be fun, but pointless. If you really believe it doesn't mean that, feel free to reach out to SJP Berkeley for clarification, and if they indeed say they didn't mean I said is obviously, I will happily post a entire post apologizing and correcting my statement. Good luck....
Doesn't mean he's wrong. South Africa isn't exactly a best case scenario for democracy for all in a multi-ethnic state. The world probably should have taken a hint from the way the ANC was necklacing people, and realized that just because the Apartheid regime were bad guys didn't mean the opposition were good guys.
Asked who to sign what? This is Hamas' position - which is echoed by these groups.
How does one "explicitly" not use a phrase? Did they say "we are explicitly not using that formulation"? nah.
No, I'm saying you can not like people because they're not acting like saints, but you'd better take a pretty good look at the people you propose to replace them with if you don't want tragedy. Like it or not, replacing the Apartheid regime with the ANC actually managed to make things worse in South Africa on a lot of metrics.
If you plunked Israel down in the middle of Europe, yeah, they'd be the neighborhood bad guys. Given the neighborhood they're actually in, they're actually the good guys, and probably about as nice as they can be and still survive. Replace them with the Palestinians, and things would get ugly, fast.
A pity the audio link is dead in that article you linked to.
The Southern Poverty Law Center heard "you", but that's probably just their racism talking. Maybe that sounds like "Jew" to you.
It may seem a trivial point, and I'm not actually disputing that the people who organized that rally were bad people, but it was my point: Why DO you hear "Jew" when somebody chants "You"?
Try listening to the first few minutes of this.
Note too the chants of "blood and soil." I guess they couldn't pronounce Blut und Boden.
If wanting to be protected from incoming rockets and suicide bombings implies one is a bigot, then we're all bigots, and the word has lost meaning.
Hundreds of millions of people alive today imagine a glorious day when the barbarians massacre the Jewish population of Israel, smashing early survivors into the sea to drown.
We're talking about the self determination of frank would be genocides who regularly rain down rockets on peaceful neighborhoods and continually dig tunnels to infiltrate people who will slaughter daycares.
Maybe that doesn't matter to you because you don't live in those neighborhoods, or have kids in those daycares?
It's two different writings, QA. One can be accurate and the other can be inaccurate with no contradiction. (And indeed, a given piece of writing can be bother accurate in some places and inaccurate in others. Accuracy is a claim-specific thing).
Bernstein gives his evidence for the one being accurate and the other being inaccurate. You can dispute his evidence (and if you wish to do so, well, *do that*), but reducing it to mere 'narrative' when he presented his evidence is exceptionally disappointing.
Until Don drop the switchblade, I don't much care.
Ah, you are aware, aren't you, that the Gaza strip borders on Egypt, right? You do know that, don't you? That any time Egypt wanted, they could throw that border open.
They don't, because they don't want that crazy spilling into their country, either.
What utterly disingenuous garbage. Gaza was not an independent entity since Biblical times. In the 20th century, it was part of the Ottoman Empire, part of the British Mandate, under Egyptian military occupation and then under Israeli military occupation.
When Israel withdrew, the residents were given autonomy and an opportunity to build a peaceful prosperous life. They were given funds and resources to do so. They didn't need to accept Israel, just turn inward and build a life for their people. Had they built a peaceful, prosperous state, as many promised then, it would have been a model for the West Bank, and a stepping stone to greater independence.
Instead, the people there voted in a radical, terrorist group, that basically decided to impose a radical Islamist state at home and war against Israel. It was only then that Israel responded with military might.
Your basic premise in many comments is that Israel did not give or offer enough independence to these areas, and so the offer was not enough. But these areas were never independent, and were used as launching pads to try to attack and wipe out Israel. So Israel is perfectly within its rights to proceed by stages.
As Henry Kissinger liked to say, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. There have been many times in history when the could have had a state. There were offered it by the UN in 1948, on more land than they will ever get under even the most left-wing Israeli government. They turned it down and choose war.
Just yesterday. These are the people you want to have self determination. But their determination is to murder Jews, doesn't that matter any?
We may go ballistic, but it's a largely futile ballistic, because your guys are in charge there.
Because both "you" and "Jew" include Jews in this context. Quibbling about whether they chant one or the other in any given instance is irrelevant as this is, at its core, an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.
"We won't stop oppressing you until you stop resisting our oppression!"
How about, "We won't open our border to you until you stop teaching your children we should all be murdered"?
Just another example of the anti-Semitism of the left.
As for QA, (pronoun) is just a lost cause.
As the story was told to me, they could have had Gaza as part of Egypt in 1979 but they didn't want it.
Queen seems to think it's important for some reason. Personally I think the Unite the Right people can be bad even without being all in on that particular kind of badness.
You know, the left is the real nexus of anti-Semitism in the world today. Really, it has been all along, even if you go along with the joke that the fascists were "right wing" socialists. It's kind of funny how much effort they put into claiming that anti-Semitism is really a right-wing thing, even with examples like the one Bernstein is discussing here.
"exceptionally disappointing."
What new. It is QA's MO.
Bravo!
Except that (a) Said was urbane and "moderate," as these things go; and (b) he was speaking as a propagandist for his cause, so he was trying to be "optimistic" without sounding unrealistic. If someone like Said was willing to admit that Jews would likely be in trouble in a future Palestine, you can imagine what the average Palestinian nationalist thinks privately.
Yeah, and people who aspire to genocide and make no bones about it tend to get tightly controlled by their designated victims, if said victims are up to it. The genocidal ambitions came first, here, try to keep that in mind.
So, I grab the first random example that turns up in Google, and you consider the source an excuse to pretend it's not true.
Maybe NBC is an acceptable source?
And you continue to ignore that it is two separate writings being referred to, not "a writing"
"Some people think a bit before changing positions"
A notable trait of early-20-something college students is their introspection.
Here is Berkeley Law's SJP speaking of "Israeli apartheid" in 2019 and tracing it back "70 years," ie, to the founding of Israel, not to the 1967 war and "the occupation." https://www.facebook.com/BerkeleyLSJP/posts/pfbid0wfQ2DgucJxcHZYMRSCMu3jT8gHJCtbadN7RJFBv6S1G45iNuWe9U29NvD9gKsfXVl
So we now direct evidence that support for "apartheid Israel" means support for "Israel," and that SJP was calling on groups to refuse to invite, for any reason, anyone who supports Israel, in any way.
But if you knew anything at all about SJP and its ideology, this would be obvious.
Seems to me the Unite the Right folks have had plenty of time to correct the record if there is any false impression. Why don't you email them and ask them if that is what they meant?
These "kids" are in their early twenties, at least. Some day they will be telling people they should read documents before they sign them.
I can't help but think they already know that. I did, when I was their age, even without benefit of any law school classes.
And if they didn't mean the worst then they have plenty of opportunity to clarify.
Take your example. If a furor arose the signers could clarify that they don't think “birth control and women seeking careers should be discouraged," and tell everyone what they intended.
And if they didn't respond?
You're really funny. My point doesn't depend on Chemerinsky being accurate. My point is that Chemerinsky publicly interpreted the statement as banning any speaker who thinks Israel should exist, including him, exactly the way anyone familiar with SJP's ideology would understand. Neither SJP nor anyone else has spoken up to correct him. That is, in fact, evidence that this is the correct interpretation. You yourself noted that if this is the correct interpretation it would be problematic, disturbing, whatever adjective you used--even to someone like you, who is not exactly friendly to Israel. So why wouldn't anyone try to correct this misinterpretation on the part of Chemerinsky? This is very much like hearsay cases I teach in Evidence in which person A makes a very incuplatory statement about person B, in person B's presence. The rule is that if a reasonable person in B's position would have objected to the statement, but B did not, we can conclude that B effectively adopted the statement.
Again, the Southern Poverty Law Center thought they were saying "You". The word was pretty clear, after all.
Hm, it appears some people were saying "Jews" on one occasion, at the University of Virginia, and other people were saying "You" on another occasion, in Charotesville. Funny the way different people do different stuff.
Yeah, well why should he accept it? He's not launching genocidal attacks. You think that doesn't make any difference here?
It was literally the first relevant result I got on Google. 3 pages into irrelevant chaff they promoted ahead of it, of course, but still the first relevant result.
Funny the way you ignore one event.
Professor Bernstein, hope you are still monitoring this post....and hope you address my questions (my post at the bottom of comments).
Israel defines itself as a Jewish state. Its entire reason for existing is to provide special privileges for Jews. That’s what you find in its founding document, and in the laws and policies it enacts. Is it unreasonable to think that the other people living there (who were there when the state was violently imposed upon them, an event that displaced 3/4 of a million of them, and continues to deny most of them basic rights) would have a problem with that?
I think the basic problem here is that when the violence and intimidation first started, the administrations, which were somewhat sympathetic to the causes, if not the means, didn't move vigorously enough to stop it.
This emboldened some bad actors, and resulted in the opposing side being intimidated, which made it a bigger problem that was harder for the administrations to deal with, if they were even so inclined. And a positive feedback kicked in.
At this point, they put out something like this, people just roll their eyes and sign it, rather than signing up for a world of grief, knowing that they can be targeted for retaliation if they're identified as the enemy, and the administration will NOT have their back.
The extremists who actually mean this crap are still in the minority, but they're also in control, and will continue to be barring a school administration deciding to go nuclear on them and handing out expulsions like candy.
Yes, special privileges like "not being murdered."
I'm referring to a specific body of literature (the Settler Colonialism literature). I don't consider 'the left' or 'the right' to be monolithic entities.
This is a literature base specifically about a type of colonialism where the colonists come for the land, not to rule the natives. It's kind of shocking that most of it is focused on areas like the US, where any 'settling' has been over for a century, and ignoring the places where 'settler colonialism' is going on right now.
Do you believe SJP Berkeley is unaware that this is how they're being broadly understood?
Am absence of evidence is, as we all know, evidence of absence
Yes, yes, and yes.
They expelled the Tiki Torch brigade.
Use duckduckgo.com