The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Way To Stop Worrying About Judicial Legitimacy Is To Stop Worrying About Judicial Legitimacy
The answer to any question about the Supreme Court's legitimacy should be "next question."
Recently, several Justices have opined on the legitimacy of the Supreme Court.
The Chief urged people not to criticize the legitimacy of the Court, simply because they disagree with an opinion.
"You don't want the political branches telling you what the law is. And you don't want public opinion to be the guide of what the appropriate decision is," said Roberts, who added, to laughter, "Yes, all of our opinions are open to criticism. In fact, our members do a great job of criticizing some opinions from time to time. But simply because people disagree with an opinion is not a basis for criticizing the legitimacy of the court."
Justice Kagan observed that that judges undermine their legitimacy when they impose their own personal preferences on the people.
"Nobody elected me," Kagan said in a public conversation at the Temple Emanu-El Streicker Center in Manhattan. "And the only reason people should accept what judges do is because they're doing law, they're doing something that they were put there to do. And so I think judges … undermine their legitimacy when they don't act so much like courts and when they don't do things that are recognizably law, and when they instead stray into places where it looks like they're an extension of the political process, or where they're imposing their own personal preferences."
And, Kagan added that the Court is legitimate when it acts like a Court:
"I would say it's when a court is legitimate when it's acted like a court," Kagan said. "A court does not have any warrant, does not have any rightful authority, to do anything else than act like a court. It doesn't have the authority to make political decisions. It doesn't have the authority to make policy decisions. Its authority is bounded and the court should be constantly aware of that."
Justice Sotomayor also joined the fray:
She added: "When the court does upend precedent, in situations in which the public may view it as active in political arenas, there's going to be some question about the court's legitimacy."
In the wake of Dobbs, I adopted a new rule of thumb for reading discourse about the Supreme Court. Whenever anyone starts talking about "legitimacy"--yes, scare quotes--I stop reading. Immediately. There is nothing new that can be said about the Supreme Court and legitimacy. Really, nothing new. Casey made the case about as well as it could be made. For three decades, people kept repeating Justice Souter's "wisdom"--more scare quotes.
The Dobbs majority and dissent vigorously disagreed on Casey's conception of "legitimacy." Ultimately, the Dobbs majority concluded that the Court should not concern itself with outward-looking concepts like "legitimacy." The Chief, as well as the Dobbs dissenters, insisted the Court should take account of such concerns.
I explained this divide in a Newsweek column:
Casey's understanding of legitimacy, Alito suggested, "went beyond this Court's role in our constitutional system." Stare decisis should not be "subject to the vagaries of public opinion." The Court, Alito explained, "cannot allow [its] decisions to be affected by any extraneous influences such as concern about the public's reaction to [its] work." In the span of a few paragraphs, the majority wiped away a generation of received wisdom about legitimacy.
Indeed, Dobbs redefined legitimacy altogether. Alito quoted from Rehnquist's Casey dissent: the Supreme Court does not "derive[] its legitimacy…from following public opinion," but by faithfully deciding cases based on written law. Justice Alito and his colleagues explained that "[w]e do not pretend to know how our political system or society will respond to today's decision overruling Roe and Casey." Nor do they care.
And nor should they care when the press or others ask about legitimacy.
Of course, the irony is that the majority restored an issue to the political process, while the dissent would have let five robed lawyers continue to dictate abortion policy nationwide. Kagan's concerns about legitimacy are better suited for Obergefell, which wrested the issue of marriage from the political process based on penumbras. For progressives, legitimacy is defined as maintaining the precedents of the Warren and Burger Courts. When the Court created those precedents out of thin air, legitimacy was never in question. But when the Court exorcises those phantasmal precedents, legitimacy comes into doubt. Indeed, for progressives, stared decisis is defined as stand by the precedents of the Warren and Burger Courts. The script at this point is predictable.
My advice to the Supreme Court justices: whenever anyone asks about the Court's legitimacy, the answer should be "next question." Or, if they are feeling more loquacious, "Our job is to decide cases based on law, without fear or favor of public perception."
Maybe I can frame the issue in tautological terms that will resonate with the Chief: the way to stop worrying about judicial legitimacy is to stop worrying about judicial legitimacy.
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Can President DeSantis get away with saying "Justice Jackson has made her decision, now let her enforce it"? Then we'll have a legitimacy crisis or opportunity depending on your point of view.
I hope so.
Xhe should have to recuse xerselves from any case involving women since xhe confesses xhe doesn't know what one is.
Or President Biden decide packing the court could be worth the political risk because the citizenry have lost faith in its impartiality.
Mr. Manager councils sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la", possibly while remembering daddy loves you.
I do hope the FedSoc members listen to him.
Newsweek? The zombie publication? Why type of law school professor would be published in what is left of Newsweek?
The answer obviously involves South Texas College of Law Houston, which is ranked above a half-dozen law schools (of roughly 200) in the United States. A South Texas professor probably would snag a gig writing for Bazooka bubble gum or Cracker Jack if offered.
Don't you have an elementary school aged boy to be grooming?
You, IsaacDanielcm, are precisely the commenter the Volokh Conspiracy wants and deserves.
Which is why right-wingers are -- and have been for decades -- the losers at the modern American marketplace of ideas and in the American culture war.
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will let you know, of course, for how far and how long.
The only people who are flocking to Blue Utopian cities are street shitters, illegals, and criminals.
I meandered over to the rest of Reason to see what people are saying about Desantis. While reading a thread, one poster summed up the quality of the conversation one can expect over there: “Shut up pedo.”
This is what pretends to be reason on Reason.com.
The cartel circles the wagon.
So, how is that search for the person who leaked the Dobb's decision going?
The Republicans and movement conservatives who currently control the Court seem relatively uninterested in revealing the answer to that question.
Stare decisis should not be "subject to the vagaries of public opinion." – Alito (or is it Blackman?)
At first I asked myself, "Is that the legal equivalent of, 'Keep your government hands off our Medicare?' " But then I realized it doesn't fit. It cuts in the wrong direction. Instead of the public being shockingly stupid, in this case it's the government (or is it Blackman?).
This makes sense only if you like the court’s proclivities. As Blackman does now.
So if anyone asks whether or not blackman is a hack, the answer should be "next question"?
Look, Blackman is terrible at making arguments, but the position itself isn't crazy. The two issues are not symmetric. The Court finding that there's a constitutional right is countermajoritarian, while the Court finding that the constitution is silent on the issue is majoritarian. It's a bit awkward to suggest that the court lacks public legitimacy because it allows the public to decide an issue, whereas excluding the public's views should lead to public acceptance.
I recognize that it's more complex than that, because of the geographic nature of federalism; leaving something "to the public" may ultimately lead to something widely unpopular nationwide being enacted in a small subset of the country. But as a first pass at the issue of legitimacy, we should acknowledge the difference between majoritarian and countermajoritarian rulings.
Two observations:
1. Judicial power is political power, and the continued exercise of political power can't be long maintained without some level of legitimacy in the eyes of the public. It doesn't necessarily need to be a majority, America has a very long tradition of minority rule being viewed as "legitimate." But if enough people doubt the legitimacy of a governing institution, then it is in the interest of that institution to not act like you're too good to be accountable to the public.
What Blackman is advocating for is essentially that: an air of arrogance that the Court is basically too good to answer questions about itself and its role in society. That kind of arrogance has never served institutions well in the long run.
As a useful comparison, why is the monarchy in the UK and Commonwealth realms still relatively popular? Because it continually justifies its role in the constitutional system to exercise what limited practical power they have. It would be gone if the royal family pretended legitimacy wasn't important. So too for the Court.
2. "For progressives, legitimacy is defined as maintaining the precedents of the Warren and Burger Courts. When the Court created those precedents out of thin air, legitimacy was never in question. But when the Court exorcises those phantasmal precedents, legitimacy comes into doubt."
Well it's not just progressives... everyone who believes in a common law system tends to support stare decisis to some degree. And legitimacy does come into question when settled expectations are suddenly upset, this should be obvious.
But since Blackman is still a relatively young man he will undoubtedly be crying out about stare decisis when a future Court inevitably pares back some of the excesses of this era.
I also am very curious to see what precedents Blackman thinks are phantasms or invented out of thin air. Roe is the obvious one, but I've noticed that some people really like to criticize the Warren/Burger Courts generally but always shrink away when pressed for details about what that means in real terms.
If you actually press someone on Warren and Burger precedents they'll hedge on Brown and then shrink away when you confront them with what it means regarding other rights. Only the biggest assholes actually proudly say what they mean about specific Warren/Burger Court precedents, and even then there are limits where they shrink away in embarrassment.
How much it's not "arrogant" when Ruth Bader Ginsburg decided that a woman has a right to kill her baby or when Anthony Kennedy, in between Bud Lights, decided that "dignity" means a gay man having an orgasm into another man's anus?
These are your peeps, Volokh Conspirators.
And this is why better Americans continue to defeat your stale, ugly conservative thinking in the culture war. You get to whine about it -- especially at this white, male, bigot-friendly blog -- as much as you like, of course.
(How are those "civility standards" you claim to enforce coming along, Prof. Volokh? Do you still attempt to assert that your muzzling of liberals at this blog has been anything other than partisan, viewpoint-driven censorship?).
Are you OK with a straight man having an orgasm into a woman's anus? Asking for a friend.
No.
"Roe is the obvious one, "
So obvious that most of those on both sides of the question said it was bad law and without any justification in the Constitution.
So obvious that most of those on both sides of the question said it was bad law and without any justification in the Constitution.
No. The critics of Roe on the side that favored abortion rights were critical of the legal reasoning used in that decision, not that there was no "justification in the Constitution" for abortion rights. You are either purposefully misstating things or ignorant of the legal battleground.
No. The critics of Roe on the side that favored abortion rights were critical of the legal reasoning used in that decision, not that there was no “justification in the Constitution” for abortion rights. You are either purposefully misstating things or ignorant of the legal battleground.
Pot meet kettle.
Nowhere did he assert that Roe’s critics said abortion rights had no justification in the Constitution. He said Roe was bad law (which you appear to second), and had no justification. Reading comprehension fail, or purposefully misstating things?
*Testing edit feature! OMG Reason welcome to the 2000s.*
Nowhere did he assert that Roe’s critics said abortion rights had no justification in the Constitution
That is pretty hard to justify. Because Blackman himself is a Roe critic. Do you think he was calling Roe a 'phantom precedent' but thought some other opinion finding a right to abortion would have been fine?
Do you think anyone of the 'baby murder' set would think that?
Come on. No opinion finding a right to abortion would pass muster; this is an ideological and philosophical issue, with the Constitution as more a catspaw than the principal.
Come on, you can't just casually dismiss the fact that abortion is nowhere mentioned in the Constitution. It matters.
Let's suppose that changed, the pro-abortion movement manged against all odds to get an amendment establishing a right to abortions ratified. Do you really suppose that people like Blackman or myself would continue to deny that abortion was constitutionally protected?
Sure, gun control advocates are like that; They'll deny the existence of a right that's explicitly laid out in the Bill of Rights. But we're not that bad. We're just fortunate in that the Constitution happens, at least in this regard, to be on our side.
That's not true about everything. I think the 16th and 17th amendments were terrible ideas, but do you ever see me suggesting that state legislatures could cancel elections and directly appoint Senators? Or make stupid arguments about the constitutionality of the income tax?
There are absolutely things in the Constitution I think shouldn't be there, and things missing that I think should be there.
But abortion isn't on that list.
First, Brett, this has nothing to do with VinniUSMC's ridiculous characterization of the OP. Seems you agree with me that Blackman was absolutely saying abortion rights had no justification in the Constitution.
But as to your textual defense. That's you once again being certain about something that relies on a fundamental misunderstanding of the law. You've been around here long enough to know that plenty of stuff is Constitutional law despite not being explicit in the text:
What counts as the legislative power, and what of that power may be delegated
That encompasses the judicial power and what does not - case and controversy resulting in standing
The executive power's extent, and what Article II allows and doesn'ty allow
How unitary is the executive?
Miranda rights
Exigencies to warrant requirement
Tons of freedom of speech implementation. Form analysis, time place and manner, content versus viewpoint, political versus commercial speech.
Money in politics being speech. Citizens United.
Abortion restrictions being something that infringes on Constitutional rights are well in keeping with Constitutional practice.
Also part of Constitutional practice: *following precedent*. Not slavishly - you can overturn it. But to do so, you need to interact with the precedent. Which is something Alito didn't bother to do. Which is a big part of why I think Dobbs is bad; it's a discontinuity in the line of precedents. Lochner wasn't that. Brown wasn't that.
I also am very curious to see what precedents Blackman thinks are phantasms or invented out of thin air.
Me too.
Besides,it sounds like Blackman thinks it's terrible that the Warren Court disregarded some precedents, but wonderful that the Alito/Thomas - oops, meant Roberts - Court does the same.
But isn’t the opposite true that people like those on this board feel precisely the same way in reverse? Serious question.
Seems as if the people who scream about legitimacy are the people who disagree with the court most recently. And even you didn’t think it illegitimate when the court decided the ACA tax decision, which sure looks inks a precedent breaker.
I think Dobbs is an awful decision, and it's reasoning is awful.
But I'm not going to call it phantasmal.
That kind of 'our side is careful law followers and the other is all outcome-oriented liars' is a specifically right-wing vintage.
"That kind of 'our side is careful law followers and the other is all outcome-oriented liars' is a specifically right-wing vintage."
I wish I could believe that were true, but I watch too much MSNBC.
Right. It's not "right wing"; it's the nature of punditry. Read Mark Joseph Stern or Ian Millhiser and you'll get a constant stream of that, day in and day out. You don't get ratings or clicks by saying, "Well, the judge probably ultimately came to the wrong decision on this complex issue, but he made some good points and it could've gone either way."
Hell, you don't even get enough ratings or clicks by saying, "This is an awful decision, but shit happens; sometimes judges get it wrong." You get clicks by saying, "Corrupt judge bought by Soros/Trump!!!!!!!!"
Yup.
I don’t know what I think about Dobbs because I don’t know what I think about abortion. Ultimately I don’t think it will change things much in the end because it’ll end up legal in a lot of places anyway and orgs will pop up that will get people who live in places where it’s illegal to places where it’s legal.
And your last point makes my whole point. It’s correct as far as it goes, but ignores the fact that that attitude is currently coming from the left, while the right basks in how “correct” the court has become.
The left talks about systemic problems and the like; some of the more foolish ones indict the 'system, man!' or capitalism or whatever bullshit.
There are certainly silly people on the right.
But, the 'everything I disagree with is a bad faith reading of the Constitution' is not how the left rolls. To be fair to Leo Marvin, I don't get cable.
Yeah, sorry to say, but it’s not pretty. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not equating it with RW batshittery on judicial bad faith, or on anything else for that matter, but it’s bad enough.
Well, no: the complaint isn't that the Warren Court disregarded precedents, the complaint is that they disregarded the constitution.
By giving it actual meaning for the vast majority of people in their day to day lives.
"Besides, it sounds like Blackman thinks it’s terrible that the Warren Court disregarded some precedents, but wonderful that the Alito/Thomas – oops, meant Roberts – Court does the same."
This suggests to me that you're not getting the point: The Court owed fealty to the Constitution, not to its own precedents.
Some precedents will be consistent with the Constitution, they should be upheld; But not because they are precedents, because upholding them is upholding the Constitution.
Some precedents will be inconsistent with the Constitution, they should be overturned; But not because they are precedents, because overturning them is upholding the Constitution.
And, I guess, some will fall somewhere in between; Plausibly consistent with the Constitution, but there are other plausible readings. Here, precedent might serve as a tie breaker between alternate admissible readings.
But where the Constitution speaks clearly, or clearly is silent, precedent MUST fall before its primacy.
The Court owed fealty to the Constitution, not to its own precedents.
Except that precedents are part of Constitutional jurisprudence. This was intended and understood in the Founding era, is a well known doctrine followed even today.
You may have the overtowering ego to ignore past Justices, but Stare and 8 of the 9 Justices all believe precedent is something not to be overturned based on your personal whims about the Constitution, even if you've decided it 'speaks clearly.'
I suggest you look at the Supreme court's oaths.
1) “I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”
2)“I, _________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me as _________ under the Constitution and laws of the United States. So help me God.”
See any mention of precedent in either?
Sure, precedents are examples of constitutional jurisprudence, which is to say, the work product of judges, concerning the Constitution. The Constitution in all cases is superior to mere precedent. Once the Justices decide a precedent is contrary to it, they're oath bound to overturn it.
The judicial power, as understood both originally and today, includes precedent as part of it's operation.
You have this idiotic revealed faith idea that the Constitution's One And Clear Truth is evident to those of sufficient purity. No - the fact that you let your certainty carry your hot take above all others is a personality flaw you have; it is not part of the Constitution.
Precedent is other smart people who have been institutionally charged with thinking about these problems. Maybe they're wrong - that happens. But deciding you're right just because you are *very very sure* and therefore needn't refer to them? That's not the Constitution being superior, that's just adopting a jurisprudence of personal pride.
It is the essence of men over the law.
You're talking about the judicial power, and I'm talking about the judicial duty.
The judicial expectation - which encompasses both power and duty - is to pay attention to precedent.
Unless that precedent is clearly contradicted by the text of the constitution, like, for instance, a federal law restricting gun ownership, or it calls upon rights or powers not present in the constitution, like, for instance, qualified immunity.
President is common law, and in a country like Britain that means that the trade-off between freedom of speech and freedom from discrimination may reach a tipping point in which it is legally permissible to fine or jail people for making homophobic remarks. There is a clear continuum of precedent showing how the British courts reached that conclusion and within the norms of their system that is perfectly legal.
In the US, it would not be. Even if previous courts found an expanding role for anti-discrimination law in overcoming the protections on freedom of speech, The current court would have a duty to overturn. We have the first amendment, that is the controlling legal authority, and that settles it.
Besides,it sounds like Blackman thinks it’s terrible that the Warren Court disregarded some precedents, but wonderful that the Alito/Thomas – oops, meant Roberts – Court does the same.
Bold assertion. Assumes facts not in evidence. Typical.
3. A massive byproduct of Legitimacy is Wisdom.
Convincing yourself that you are right is the world's easiest argument, the true test is whether you can convince others. That is the true duty of a Supreme Court, not to necessarily convince the public, but to try.
That is the true flaw in Alito's (and Blackman's) thinking. When you toss aside the concept of "legitimacy" you toss aside not only the obligation justify your actions to the public but the necessity that creates of making sure your actions are justifiable.
The result of the philosophy where Justice Alito and his colleagues explained that "[w]e do not pretend to know how our political system or society will respond to today's decision overruling Roe and Casey." Nor do they care.
Is not rulings that faithfully uphold the law, it's rulings that the Justices do not know how to justify.
five robed lawyers continue to dictate abortion policy nationwide.
And even more of them dictate our speech policy!
Kagan's concerns about legitimacy are better suited for Obergefell, which wrested the issue of marriage from the political process based on penumbras
Love to see Josh just nakedly calling his side independent of legitimacy concerns while at the same time making charges of judicial overreach against the other side.
If legitimacy doesn't matter, Josh, who cares about judicial overreach?
The answer is that you don't want us to stop talking about legitimacy - you just want your own side to be utterly unrestrained.
Not only do I want my side unrestrained, I want my opponents in graveyards.
Troll harder.
Based on his other comments, I don't think he can get any harder right now...
*yawn* Isaac.
Take that edgelord shit to 4chan. You're not shocking anyone here.
CAPTAIN TONE POLICE!
I'm sorry, do you think I should be impressed by this attention seeker's death threats?
He's no different than Biden and the Democrat FBI.
Are you trying to be as boring as Isaac?
It's a good effort, but don't quit your day job.
Issac mDe one too many racially tinged statements so I sent him to the grays. Helps a bunch.
I thought about it, but kept him because I find him kinda hilarious.
He's trying to be shocking, and just not very good at it.
And they absolutely think that legitimacy matters, they're just frustrated that it is being questioned more openly by more high profile people and that people generally don't just see them as inherently legitimate because of their title/position. B whether they like it or not, SCOTUS cannot and never could operate independently of the political environment in which it exists. So the mode of their appointment and the popularity of their decisions and decision making process will affect whether the public views their exercise of political power as legitimate.
And in any event, even if the public generally views decisions as "legitimate" in the sense that they recognize the power of the institution to make binding rules which they follow....it does not follow that society ALSO has to just accept that as a good thing that can't change. You can accept the "legitimacy" of a ruling and still say that the ruling sucks, the current justices and the mode of their appointment sucks, and that we should have a court that sucks less and makes less bad decisions. Yet when people do that it is going to be framed by conservatives as an attack on the legitimacy of the Court....
It's just more rule by the unpopular minority nonsense.
Pedantic dorks making excuses for rule by the dumbest most awful people in the country.
The high profile people are people in the opposition who have megaphones. I doubt there’s much concern about this out here among the hoi polloi. Most folks are focused on staying solvent through a trip to the grocery.
After reading this idiot's drivel for a while, it was only a matter of time before we got this "let's be like Nero" post. The GOP of today is repeatedly burning this country to the ground while shouting "who is doing this?!!"
The burning to the ground came from the party causing our cultural and moral rot for the past 60 years. That would be the Democraps.
We are all impressed that your party has sold it's soul to that paragon of culture and morality, Donald Trump. Care to tell us just how far down into the cesspool you're going to follow him, Isaac?
"Indeed, Dobbs redefined legitimacy altogether."
Wait, they can do that?!?
I wonder if Louis XVI thought about simply "redefining legitimacy altogether" as he was being marched to the guillotine . . .
Planning an event? How's your knitting?
Dobbs took a fictional right with no constitutional basis, erased it, and gave it back to the people to decide, instead of their black robed masters. For the judiciary, it is as much an expression of legitimacy for them to NOT decide the issues they have no right to decide, as it is to properly decide the issues that really are their proper domain.
I don't really think this so much redefined legitimacy, as it represented a partial restoration of genuine judicial legitimacy.
Seems like you and Blackman have a very fundamental disagreement.
That would hardly be shocking, we frequently are.
But unfortunately, you don't stop writing!
You can always skip his posts. They have his name right there.
Really, this kind of whiny snark is annoying. You think Blackman is an idiot, just ignore him.
I often want people to lead with substance and not empty insults.
But Blackman has revealed himself over and over again as a not very bright unserious person. Who thinks himself both bright and serious.
There is only one use for people like that, and it's amusement.
Well, that and making them President for a brief stint.
CAPTAIN TONE POLICE!
"If you find the farts of our esteemed Professor Blackman so offensive to the intellect and good taste, as you doth protest," Bored Lawyer blithely intoned, resting his hands upon his ample belly and rolling his stinking cigarette thoughtfully on his lip, and inhaling deeply of good Blackman's prodigious odors, "then why dwell'st so long in his company? Pray leave us to share in his delicious aromas, in peace."
Nothing wrong with calling a bigot a bigot.
Except from the perspective of the other bigots.
Carry on, clingers. So far as . . . you know how far.
The problem I have with the "just ignore him" response is how much of the site he takes up, combined with the site design. His inane posts push better posts off the front page.
It's also an untrue statement, since the post is Josh opining on comments he read that were about legitimacy. He literally quotes the words that were said after the word legitimacy...but he said he stops reading when he hears that word?!
This seems a lot like when Josh quit Twitter.
I stop reading when leftists talk about being on the "right side of history" as though history validates their choices to bareback other men.
Oh look, another right wing psychopath is obsessed with gay sex. What a surprise.
Is that fun for you, Isaac? Obsessing about other people having sex?
"Kagan's concerns about legitimacy are better suited for Obergefell, which wrested the issue of marriage from the political process based on penumbras"
Obergefell has the same constitutional logic errors that Roe had. Dobbs returned abortion back to the states where it belongs
Likewise, the enactment of same sex marriage statutes should be returned to the states to be decided by the democratic process. The constitutional rational used in obergefell can justify any construction of a statute based on the policy preferences of the justices.
fwiw - while I am not a fan of same sex marriage, I was an advocate of enacting same sex marital statutes as part of the family code since the late 1990's. Keep in mind that while same sex marriage has many similiarities of hetrosexual marriage, it remains separate and distinct, thus justifying separate martial statutes under each states family code.
Dobbs returned abortion back to the states where it belongs
Sounds anodyne. If it is, it won't be politically consequential. The next two election cycles should give that question a fair workout. Evidence already in sight against your conclusion is that erstwhile right-wing candidates are running from Dobbs after they win their primaries.
The reason the left is freaking over it is because it will be consequential, because the courts had imposed an abortion regime which wasn't politically sustainable.
For a while we're going to see legislatures, unused to being able to freely legislate on this topic, feeling out the contours of actual public opinion. There will be over-reach on BOTH sides.
Things won't settle out to the delight of either side, of that I'm sure. But they'll end up closer to the pro-life position than Roe was, for sure; Roe never stopped the states from being more pro abortion than the Court demanded, so there's no unsatisfied demand for lenient policies.
Popularity and legitimacy are not the same thing. Most people react to a Supreme Court decision (if they react at all) based on whether they agree with the result. Lots of prior cases were unpopular, but they were still correct (or at least correctly decided).
Legitimacy seems to be invoked whenever one side does not like losing. It's just a cheap attempt to win an argument where traditional legal argument has failed.
Better to have a Supreme Court that isn't trusted than one that is, when it shouldn't be.
Bored Lawyer, it is unsurprising that people begin to ponder legitimacy after they accumulate a lifetime of losing despite being in the actual majority. Watching as successive minority-favoring political quirks become mutual force multipliers puts an edge on it.
We live in a country that was explicitly designed to be counter majoritarian. Liberals are protected from conservative overreach and conservatives are protected from liberal overreach. Liberals are just so accustomed at this point to commanding the universities, newsrooms, and federal bureaucracy that they process their inability to overreach as losing.
One would think that after four years of screaming about how Trump was going to bring an end to everything good and decent that they would appreciate some checks on the power of the president and Congress. Apparently not.
The anti-cannon is all about mistakes beyond the bounds of legitimacy. ("The Fourteenth Amendment does not enact Mr. Herbert Spencer's Social Statics").
Or case and controversy/justiciability. That's about legitimacy, not 'the law.'
Law and economics. Originalism. Positivism. All of these are thinking about legitimacy.
I don't know what unmoored nonsense Blackman envisions. Well, I do. And it's just his side winning and not worrying about anything else.
How shallow.
This is a really good observation. It’s also funny because the modern conservative legal movement’s most successful idea, textualism in statutory interpretation, was successful because it has a very well-reasoned legitimacy argument behind it. The legitimacy of the court’s interpretation of a statute is damaged when it’s strays beyond things the elected legislators actually recorded votes on. Makes sense right?
I feel cursed to live a life where I see idiocy such as this ascendant.
Josh, this adds really nothing to your previous writing on the Court's "legitimacy" after Dobbs. You have not refined your argument, nor have you appeared to take heed of any criticism of your position. And now you are declaring to consider the entire matter closed to any further examination. Well! That might suit a hack. But a legal academic? No.
I feel sorry for the odd, intelligent student who might somehow find his way to your classroom. I realize that is exceedingly unlikely at a school like South Texas. Still, one might imagine someone doing well on the LSAT, but with a poor UGPA, who chooses to take advantage of a large scholarship to a micro-regional law school, expecting to work in Houston, perhaps. He finds his way to one of the few classes you deign to teach, not quite grasping what he's getting into, only to encounter a professor who is quite content to "stop reading" whenever he reads of someone talking about the "legitimacy" of the Court.
This is not a professor who can be expected to be open to new ideas, or new ways of thinking about old ones. This is a professor whose views are calcified, his teaching rote. His classroom is a place where intellectually curious students not only suffer but fail, unable to conform themselves to the rigid and mindless orthodoxy of a lazy narcissist who's given up decades too soon.
Is there anything "new" to be said about a Court's legitimacy? Well, perhaps not, at least insofar as we have had a fairly established sense of where it comes from and what it means. Alito may be of the view that the Court's diktat is merely the law, and us rubes can go ahead and get bent if we don't like it. But centuries of jurists before him felt differently, and they felt differently for good reason - because the glue that binds our legal system is "legitimacy," no matter how many scare quotes you put around it.
We don't yet know what a judiciary without the glue of the Court's "legitimacy" will look like, because it will take time for that picture to develop. For now, we have an executive branch that is willing to play by the rules the Court lays down, inferior courts that are not actively conspiring to undermine its rulings, and a Congress that is not yet ready to put it in its place. But I would have hoped that it would not have taken an ignored contempt order, a jockeying battle of judicial interpretations, or legitimate threats of court-packing, circuit-splitting, and jurisdiction-narrowing to illustrate the problem clearly for someone who teaches the law for a living.
Freshmen taking intro political science who just learned about Max Weber could offer way more insight than Blackman just did.
So why do any of you bother to read Blackman or comment on his posts?
Cause I feel like it?
Why do people shoot fish in a barrel?
That's a lot of words to say you want to keep calling things you don't like illegitimate.
If you are on a word budget, get back to tweeting.
In the wake of Dobbs, I adopted a new rule of thumb for reading discourse about the Supreme Court. Whenever anyone starts talking about "legitimacy"--yes, scare quotes--I stop reading. Immediately.
I suppose it is too much to hope that this will be JB's rule of thumb when he is tempted to write about "legitimacy?"
It's fitting that Blackman uses CJ Roberts' words from Parents Involved v. Seattle School District No.1. "The best way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." Roberts has become king of the tone deaf comment, and Blackman loves to follow suit. Roberts remark in that opinion assumes that past discrimination can and should only be corrected by being color blind now. Never mind that past discrimination has left a legacy that (on average) puts additional obstacles in the educational path of non-white students. It will all just fix itself eventually if we just pretend that it doesn't matter anymore.
That is Blackman's position here, completely. Whatever happened in the past to throw the Supreme Court's legitimacy into question, just doesn't matter any more. The way to fix it is to pretend that the past doesn't matter and there is no problem with the Court's legitimacy.
"Tone deaf" is saying things I don't like, but can't refute the content of so I'll criticize the "tone."
Trying to give an example of what you are saying as you say it, I see.
Seems to me the left was singing the virtues of an independent and strong federal judiciary up until recently when it started losing hard. But back when gay marriage got crammed down every jurisdictions throat it was all applause. Same with a bunch of other leftist political favored positions on cases. But, if there is one way to make a leftist go crazy, that is by denying them raw power or just using the same tactics against them. They really really hate that.
The Court is legitimate so long as it can call on the services of people with guns to enforce judicial rulings.
Right now, when it makes the call, it's Joe Biden on the other end of the line. A Court which cannot imagine a future where it does not know who will be taking the call is a pretty dumb Court.
In the wake of Dobbs, I adopted a new rule of thumb for reading discourse about the Supreme Court. Whenever anyone starts talking about "legitimacy"--yes, scare quotes--I stop reading. Immediately.
No he doesn't.
We see, from the behavior of people who doubted the 2020 election of Biden, that it means a great deal, in terms of consequences, as to whether something is considered "legitimate".
AFAIC no judicial decision by itself affects the legitimacy of the court. People know that the court is political to an extent just as they know that judges have personal biases that sway them one way or another - and that this has always been the case.
Any question of legitimacy stems from non-judicial causes. The obvious one was McConnell's theft of the open seat - hence Gorsuch's appointment was illegitimate, unless you accept McConnell's reasoning, in which case Barrett's appointment was illegitimate. And don't give me some pilpul bullshit about alleged precedent.
And there was Scalia's failure to recuse after the duck-hunting trip, and Thomas's failure to recuse in cases where his wife was heavily involved. Once we accept that judges are human and have biases, recusal becomes necessary and the absence of recusal undermines legitimacy.
Seperate from the absolutely ridiculous way in which the right wing majority of the court has signaled they intend to find any argument they can to bend the nation to christian theocracy, is the way they handed the right winf elites and Trump complete control over the docket, to bring any issue for a rubber stamp, without hearing or written opinion they can have anything they want. They also refused to consider the law in Texas that allowed anyone to sue for aiding an abortion, specifically removing all standard defenses to the lawsuit, a law they would have immediately stayed if it had been written about gun control. Legitimacy is based on a reasonable belief the "justices" actually are willing to rule against interests they identify with becuase they accept the law does not warrant it. At this stage there is zero chance any of the right wing justices care even an iota about law, they are simply rubber stamps for the forces that are looking to establish gilead.
California has called their bluff on that one. It will be fun to watch them try to contort around Texas to (correctly) find against California while maintaining their policy preferences.
The IANAL summary of Blackman's point: Let them eat cake.
It would be helpful if Prof. Blackman or anyone else writing or talking about judicial legitimacy would start by defining the concept. And what differentiates it from simple public approval of the court.