The Volokh Conspiracy
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Lindsey Graham's Proposed Federal Abortion Ban is an Unconstitutional Assault on Federalism - But it Might Fly Under Current Supreme Court Precedent
The problem is the Court's ultra-broad interpretation of Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce. But the justices might cut that back.

GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham recently proposed a federal law banning most abortions more than 15 weeks into a pregnancy. The idea flies in the face of many years of Republican rhetoric to the effect that overruling Roe v. Wade (as the Court recently did in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization) would return the issue of abortion to the states. If enacted, it would also be an unconstitutional extension of federal power. But it might nonetheless be upheld under the Supreme Court's overbroad interpretation of Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce.
Graham's proposed bill cites two possible sources of federal authority to restrict abortion: the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Commerce Clause. In a Washington Post op ed, prominent conservative legal scholar John Yoo argues that neither holds up. Yoo is absolutely right about the very weak Fourteenth Amendment theory. See also the more detailed analysis of this rationale for a federal abortion ban by co-blogger Jonathan Adler.
I also agree with Yoo that the Commerce Clause theory is wrong. But I fear he underrates the possibility that it could fly under the Supreme Court's current extremely broad interpretation of the Commerce Clause. I explained why in a previous post:
Under cases such as Gonzales v. Raich (2005), the Supreme Court has held that Congress' power to regulate interstate commerce includes the authority to restrict almost any "economic activity," so long as it has a "substantial effect" on interstate trade. And [in Raich] "economic activity" is defined very broadly to include anything that involves the "production, distribution, and consumption of commodities." That definition allowed the Court to use the Commerce Clause to uphold a federal ban on the possession of marijuana that had never crossed state lines or been sold in any market (even an intrastate one). Nearly all abortions involve the "consumption" and "distribution" of commodities, such as medical supplies. In addition, most abortions qualify as "economic" transactions because doctors, nurses, and others are paid to perform them.
One could argue that a federal law banning or severely restricting abortions isn't "really" aimed at regulating interstate commerce. The true motive would be to restrict abortion regardless of whether it involved interstate transactions or not. But much the same can be said for the marijuana ban upheld in Raich, and other federal laws enforcing the War on Drugs. They go far beyond targeting actual interstate trade in drugs, and instead forbid even in-state distribution and possession of illegal narcotics.
If, as is likely, the interstate abortion market expands in the wake of a Supreme Court decision overruling Roe, Congress could claim that suppression of intrastate abortions is necessary in order to enforce restrictions on those that involve crossing state lines. If abortion is banned in State A, but legal in neighboring State B, that creates an incentive for residents of A to cross into B in order to get abortions - even if the feds enact a ban on such crossing. That ban might be more effectively enforced if abortion were illegal in B as well as A…..
The Commerce Clause rationale for abortion restrictions might not apply to abortions that are performed on a noncommercial basis by staff who provide their services for free. But such cases are only a small percentage of the total. Moreover, in Raich, the Court upheld the ban on Angel Raich's possession of marijuana even though the producers had in fact provided it to her for free. The theory was that even such completely noncommercial production and distribution of an illegal drug could impact the interstate market.
These kinds of Commerce Clause arguments may strike some readers as the kind of sophistry that gives lawyers a bad name. I sympathize with that reaction! I hate these arguments myself, and have long argued that Raich is a terrible decision that should be overruled. But this is exactly the sort of reasoning that prevailed in Raich, and provides a constitutional rationale for much of the federal War on Drugs.
It is true, as Yoo points out, that the Supreme Court has limited the commerce power in several cases since 1995:
A 1995 ruling struck down a law that had prohibited guns in school zones, and in 2000 the court barred a federal statute making illegal gender-motivated violence that crossed state lines. In both cases, the court found that the federal government could not use the commerce clause to intrude into the states' prerogatives over criminal law. Graham's bill would represent another unconstitutional invasion of the state authority to regulate crime or the professions.
But the Court decided these cases the way it did because the activity regulated by the laws in question (gun possession in school zones and gender-based violence) did not qualify as "economic activity" even under a fairly expansive definition of that concept. For reasons outlined above, most, if not all, abortions probably are "economic activities" in the Court's sense of that term.
We can't be certain that courts would uphold Graham's bill based on Raich and other similar precedents. The relevant precedent is fuzzy enough that perhaps clever lawyers and judges will find a way to distinguish abortion from marijuana possession. But there is at least a strong likelihood that they won't.
However, as also explained in my previous posts on this subject (see here and here), the Supreme Court could potentially narrow or overrule Raich and thereby open the door to striking down federal abortion bans - thanks, in large part to that unlikely champion of abortion rights, Clarence Thomas:
In Gonzales v. Carhart (2007), the Supreme Court upheld a federal restriction on late-term "partial birth" against individual rights challenges. Justice Clarence Thomas wrote a concurring opinion emphasizing the possibility that the law in question exceeds the scope of congressional power under the Commerce Clause. Thomas previously wrote a forceful dissent in Gonzales v. Raich. [In 2021], he reiterated key elements of his critique of that decision, and urged the Supreme Court to reconsider and limit it.
Back in 2018, I explained why Thomas' position could well lead him to vote to strike down federal abortion restrictions. I built on an earlier post on this subject by Cornell Law Professor Michael Dorf. It's possible that one or more other conservative justices could join Thomas's reasoning.
One can then envision federal abortion restrictions getting invalidated by a coalition of conservative justices who believe they are beyond the power of the federal government, and liberal justices who object on individual-rights grounds. It is also possible (though less likely) that some liberal jurists could endorse the federalism argument against these restrictions. Liberal thinking on constitutional federalism shifted a good deal in recent years, and some of that shift may go beyond "fair weather federalism" brought on by opposition to Trump's policies. It's also possible that either liberal or conservative judges will think of clever ways to limit the scope of Raich, even if it doesn't get overruled completely.
All of the above applies to Democratic proposals for federal laws preempting state abortion restrictions, no less than to federal legislation banning various types of abortions, like the Graham proposal. They too almost certainly won't fly under the Fourteenth Amendment (at least so long as the Supreme Court stands by its reversal of Roe v. Wade), but might squeeze through under the Court's current Commerce Clause precedent.
For the moment, this issue remains primarily theoretical. Graham's proposal is highly unlikely to get enacted anytime soon. The Republicans do not have a majority in either house of Congress, and may well not control both even after the November election. President Biden would surely veto this law if it did get enacted at a time when he is still in office. In addition, some Republican senators are clearly unenthusiastic about the idea, in part because they fear it would be a political liability.
But the Graham bill - like Democratic proposals for federal laws protecting abortion against state restrictions - is a reminder that key elements of both parties' bases would be happy to enact a federal takeover of abortion law, if given the chance. If either party manages to get strong majorities in both houses plus control of the presidency, it could potentially happen.
At that point, the courts would have to consider whether the Constitution really gives Washington such sweeping authority. The reasoning needed to uphold a federal abortion law would also allow Congress to forbid virtually any other medical procedure, and a vast range of other activities, as well.
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I guess we might see if abortion is really a state issue. But this is all going to be academic speculation for quite a while.
And really, the answer depends on whether 5 justices want a congressional ban or not. That’s about it. So why don’t we talk about that? What has Alito said on the matter?
What's absolutely clear now that we've entered the Calvinball era of SCOTUS jurisprudence is that a nationwide ban on abortions enacted by the legislature and signed by the president would sail through the court, while a law establishing a nationwide right to abortion would be struck down.
The only relevant question before the court would be "do you like this law or not?" They might dress it up in some kind or legalese to make it sound like it was decided on constitutional principles, or they might not even bother. They have the votes, so they can do whatever they want.
The future is absolutely clear? You have any stock picks to share with us?
I foresee an enlarged Supreme Court . . . a Court that better resembles modern and improving America . . . a Court motivated to lesser degree by stale, discredited thinking . . . a Court that is less disaffected . . .
Yes, President Disanto will nominate several new judges when the R's expand the court in 2025
Just not enough ignorant, reason-rejecting, downscale bigots left in America to enable Republicans to maintain a viable electoral coalition (outside the can't-keep-up backwaters, of course, where pandering to stupid racists and superstitious gay-bashers is still a winning strategy).
Yes, avoid investing in stocks related to contraception and abortion, specifically the companies that manufacture "the pill," Plan B, and medication-based abortion.
Do invest in the stocks of companies that sell unproven "herbal remedies" that claim to prevent pregnancy. When Dr Oz loses his run for senate, I'm sure he'll be a safe bet for this one.
I believe it was Senator Tom Harkin (D - StateMakingThatCrap) who first made it hands off to the FDA.
There's plenty of blame to go around.
Blame for women's loss of reproductive and health choices?
Or just making it easier for scam artists like Dr Oz to sell garbage as a cure to desperate women who have lost their ability to control their own body?
Maybe if women had the right to get proper healthcare when they need it, Tom Harkin of Iowa's pro-free market position on supplements wouldn't be an issue. Next, you'll be blaming coat-hanger manufacturers.
"The future is absolutely clear?"
It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future, but it's generally a safe bet that people will act in the future like they have in the past. e.g. the recent rulings from Judge Cannon.
" You have any stock picks to share with us?"
Buy no load index funds in several non-overlapping sectors.
Don't try to time the market.
Run, do not walk, away from a financial advisor who's fees are commission based.
"What's absolutely clear now that we've entered the Calvinball era of SCOTUS jurisprudence is that a nationwide ban on abortions enacted by the legislature and signed by the president would sail through the court, while a law establishing a nationwide right to abortion would be struck down."
So the legislation proposed by Graham establishes a national right to abortion. The SCOTUS would strike it down in your view? Or do you dishonestly label the Graham legislation as a ban like most of the press as a review of headlines on the topic will quickly reveal...
Actually not sure if it establishes a right unless it would supersede more restrictive state laws, and I agree that it shows some hypocrisy on the states rights front in any event, but my point was about the propogandist framing of it as a ban without context...
When did the left get so absolutely whineyyyyyyy.....
I was involved in GOP politics and the most important issue was abortion and all the major players made everyone aware that being pro-life was not optional if one wanted to advance in the movement. And these people were true believers which explains how Lizard Cheney was voted into leadership in January 2021–they really believed Bush was Batman. The polling Lady Graham must be looking must be pretty awful!?!
I know Ilya wants to try to sneak past the other side of the coin. But unintentionally or not Linda also just showed Dems are also complete liars when they claim to be moderates on abortion when they rejected the 'mainstream' compromise he offered that most Americans supposedly want and the MSM quoted incessantly these past few months. They CRAVE unrestricted abortion and probably eventually mandatory abortion up until birth...and sometimes a little after for any reason.
Dems just showed they will throw a fit if not allowed to freely murder fully developed human babies physically/neurologically indistinguishable from any other baby you would be imprisoned for harming. Can't hide behind the 'oh its just a bunch of cells' defense anymore. In any other time and place besides this current upside down world this would be a frontpage megascandal.
What is the "'' mainstream' compromise" being offered here?
He's not talking about banning all abortion like the MSM is claiming just after 15 weeks. If the Dems are so moderate as they claim they would could accept and look good or offer a counterproposal. But obviously they can't even brook the mere suggestion of the slightest restriction.
You think Dems accepting this 15 week ban nationwide makes them look good?
To whom?
Um, to most people? 15 weeks is well into the 2nd "trimester", and abortion only polls well in the 1st trimester, it tanks after that.
You might argue about the exact cutoff for elective abortions. I happen to agree that this proposal is unconstitutional, but I also think that even people who don't care about that, like Graham, should realize that 24 weeks, the widely agreed point at which it's feasible to do a live delivery, would have been better politics.
If you're just looking to force Democrats to leap to defend the monstrous, pick something that almost everybody agrees is monstrous. Not something only about 60% of the population agree is ghastly.
Yep. In addition, 15 weeks would put the US well into alignment with most of Europe on this issue. Typically they put the limit at 12-14 weeks.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/america-really-is-an-outlier-on-abortion/
Ah yes, that's where M L's idiotic talking point came from.
Aunt Teefah handled that quite well: https://reason.com/volokh/2022/09/15/thursday-open-thread-101/?comments=true#comment-9702821
one of the central features of European healthcare is that it is publicly funded and free at the point of service. Without that, to claim that "we're just doing what Europe does" is dishonest in the extreme.
It doesn’t handle it well at all. What Europe believes to be morally correct as to abortion and how they fund their healthcare are completely separate issues.
It would be like the left holding up gun control as a virtue of Europe and the right saying that you can only ban guns like Europe if you can also punish speech like Europe. Completely separate issues.
Teefah’s argument was irrational.
This doesn't follow.
There are two components to medical care: 1) it has to be legally available, 2) it has to be accessible to the people who need it.
One could, for example, make abortion legal up to 15 weeks and then immediately follow it with a series of mandatory medical examinations, scans, tests, and psychological counseling that have the effect of making 15 weeks not enough time and the whole ordeal so expensive that only those who could already afford to travel for a legal abortion could afford it. And there are states that do require waiting periods, ultra sounds, and other hurdles before one can get an abortion so this isn't far fetched.
This doesn't even get into the laws that make it legal for employers to deny insurance coverage for this type of healthcare, so even people with decent insurance won't be covered. And, just to put a cherry on top, there's an attempt to strip these kinds of benefits from the ACA/Obamacare as well.
A narrower limit on legal abortion is fine, IMHO, if access to abortion is easily available and affordable to even the poorest woman. Free or nearly free at the point of service does this but our current maze of insurance and a maze of politically-motivated waiting periods, tests, notifications, and counseling do not provide that.
ML is arguing material conditions are irrelevant.
Which explains a lot.
Yeah...you gotta stop citing random bloggers, tweeters and commenters to make your arguments. Because they're wrong.
Abortion isn't free in large parts of Europe. To just cite one country, in Germany Abortion is between 200 euros and 570 Euros, while insurance can lower the cost. Which is right in line with US costs.
https://www.hamburg.com/residents/social/11828956/family-planning/#:~:text=Abortion%20is%20not%20free%2C%20and,necessity%20or%20crime%2Drelated%20pregnancies.
Oh, right, if we don't publicly fund abortion we must permit infanticide. That's what you think passes for reason?
No one said that, Brett. Or anything like it.
People are taking issue with the argument 'this policy is the same as Europe's.'
Try and keep up.
Talk about non sequiturs: we must have unrestricted abortion up to the day of birth because we don't have single payer health care?
I've a better idea. All Republican abortion bans can fuck right off. They've shown that they cannot be trusted to ensure the heath of mothers or access to abortion for victims of rape and incest. Any ban they introduce is a wedge for further restrictions.
Kind of like all of your "common sense" gun regulation?
Yeah, ban them guns.
You can't reason with superstition.
You can't reason with bigotry.
You can't reason with belligerent ignorance.
The way to handle ignorant, superstitious bigots is to defeat them at the marketplace of ideas, in the legislatures, in the courts, at elections, and in the American culture war.
This approach has been working relatively well for at least a half-century. Why should better Americans change course?
Do you think that you can make bullshit mathematical statements and nobody will notice?
15 weeks is not “well into” the second trimester of a 40 week pregnancy.
Define "well into". One could argue whether 1 week and nearly 5 days into the second trimester of a 13.3 week trimester (assuming 40/3 is the length of a trimester) is "well into" the second trimester. Making a claim like "bullshit mathematical statement", however, when you haven't even made a semantic argument... is pretty bullshit. Par for the Cavanaugh though.
I am not surprised that you would support the deliberate dishonesty regarding Brett's remark.
That's 11 days into a 94 day period. If that's "well into," then it is only such because you want to distort the math to better serve your argument and hope that nobody will notice your exaggeration.
A "trimester" is 13 and 1/3 weeks.
So, yeah, 15 weeks is a week and some change into the 2nd "trimester". That's well into it.
If I'd meant "most of the way through the 2nd trimester", that's what I would have said.
Quibbling about the degree to which you were and are being intellectually deceitful is obviously the best course of action here, Brett.
There is also no reason to use quotation marks around the word.
As stupid as this discussion is you remain wrong. And you know you are or you wouldn’t use 15 weeks to cover for the fact that we’re talking about a week and two-thirds into the second trimester. And that extra week and two-thirds represents approximately 11-13% of a trimester.
Oh, I'm sorry, I was unaware that the ISO had issued a formal definition of "well into". Could you give the the number for it, so I can get a copy?
It's into the 2nd trimester, and not by a day, either. Try not to be such asses about admitting that.
Hilarious. First he goes to the mat to defend his “well into” characterization, which inevitably becomes “into.” And absolutely nobody here says it’s not “into” the 2nd trimester. Excuse me, I meant “trimester.”
Tune in next week for more of America’s favorite sitcom “That’s Our Brett!”
Your comment starts out disagreeing with me, and appears to end up agreeing. This is an own-goal by Graham, and Dems giving it countenance would be a level of political malpractice I've not seen in...well, like 6 years.
The polls - and recent elections - indicate that folks are riled up about Dobbs.
Going back on the GOP's discussions about leaving this to the states is not going to play well, no matter how you slice the trimesters.
It's an INTENDED "own-goal". Graham doesn't want to be in the majority, it's too much work, and he privately agrees with the Democrats about too many things.
Public opinion actually IS against elective abortion at 15 weeks, but I'll grant that right now the pro-abort movement is feasting on that dark rage, and really motivated, which is all that makes it an own-goal, rather than less than the goal he could have scored.
Yep he and his buddy Mitch. They like shaking their fist at the sky and saying if only we were in power.
And do everything they can to stay in the minority
They don't mind being in the minority, so long as they can entrench minority rule via the electoral college, the Supreme Court, voter supression and getting as many election truthers in postions of power over elections as possible.
I’d offer that “Graham prefers being in the minority because he’s lazy” is Peak Brett except I know there’s neither a bottom or a peak to Brett.
'They're not really trying.' God, it's pathetic. Everyone's seen what Republican abortion bans look like, and they're radioactive.
Only for a weird definition of "well into."
It’s around 25% of the way into the second trimester. Seems reasonable to call that “well into”.
It's 11 days into a 94-day period.
Check your math.
It’s 3 weeks into a period of 12 weeks and change. Whatever.
You think the human gestational period is only 36 weeks? Because… it's not.
I rounded a little. I’ve got four grown offspring so I pretty much know how human gestation works.
This part of today’s discussion is stupid and is people trying to show their superiority over something really trivial. I consider myself stupid for having stuck my nose in it. Live and learn…..
Despite the tradition of 40 weeks, it has been measured to be about 38 weeks on average (267 days, to be precise). If you exclude premature births, it is still about 39 weeks.
Of course, maybe the NIH, March of Dimes, WHO, and other medical organizations are all lying to the world.
Even if your math wasn’t wrong (it is) the phrase “well into” connotes “significantly” or “substantially.” And 25% of something is neither.
Such a ridiculous amount of furious quibbling to avoid admitting that we're talking 2nd trimester abortions here.
Like I said above, has the ISO issued a formal definition of "well into", or would that be a DIN standard, instead?
One of the highlights of my Thursday is watching you post things, then shift your goalposts several times and/or wiggle around pretending like you don’t understand language, it’s uses, and the denotations/connotations of words.
2500 miles into a 10,000 mile journey isn't "well into" the trip? It isn't "significantly" or "substantially" into the total distance?
Yeah, you'd be pretty wrong about that one, too.
That’s just basic “If The Left really wanted to address the issues they would quickly sign off on everything MAGA proposes, but they don’t want to fix anything.” They’ve been pulling that shit since they were known as the Republican Party.
See, Lefties love Europe so much they should marry it. So if they oppose this bill that is modeled exactly like the euros do, except for all the way it’s not modeled that way, then we have once again witnessed Lefty Hypocrisy. Same with “Our MAGA candidate is a black guy so nobody can call us racist and any Lefty who opposes him is a racist hypocrite.”
"this bill that is modeled exactly like the euros do" is false.
that's your problem. you're starting with a lie.
very broadly speaking, Europe is
1) no restrictions whatsoever until 15 weeks
2) generous exceptions after 15 weeks for life, physical health, mental health, economic circumstances of the mother, etc. TBD based on totality of the circs at time of request - what's reasonable at 16 weeks is wholly insufficient at 30 weeks.
And you know what? I'd accept that broad framework.
But not Grahams "restrictions allowed until 15 weeks, than a hard ban after that, and the state can still ban earlier".
Informing this is my person experience: my wife discovered that our first, very wanted child had a lethal abnormality during an ultrasound somewhere around 18-19 weeks. We chose to spare both her and the fetus the anguish and agony of another 20 weeks of carrying a doomed pregnancy. You got a problem with that? Europe doesn't.
Had you read just ten words farther into my second sentence you’d see I covered that it’s not. But thanks for weighing in.
D'oh ... you're right, I was too quick on that trigger. Apologies.
Since this is all being done for the cameras Democrats could really make Republicans squirm by amending the bill to make abortion unrestricted before 15 weeks in addition to the proposed restrictions after 15, taking the question entirely out of the hands of the states.
Almost as if both parties should do some legislating, not grandstanding! To reach a result that a significant* majority of Americans actually want!
*term otherwise undefined, don't get in a pissing match over it.
Since, as you say, this is all being done for the cameras, the calculus has to be whether calling Graham's bluff is more advantageous that using his gaff as an example that the GOP was lying when it said they wanted to return the question to the states. Playing along with Graham takes him seriously and undercuts the notion that the GOP cannot be trusted to keep its own word. That's a lose-lose for the Dems.
I am no politician so maybe I have it all wrong but I think the objective in these games is to not be the one that blinks, because the blinker will be seen as the hypocrite who is unwilling to work with the other side to reach a compromise. Centrist voters are the ones both sides have an opportunity to win or lose and they want to see politicians who can work with the other side, so the way to take advantage of a proposed bill that will never pass anyway is to play along rather than to reject it outright.
You're right that playing along would strengthen Graham's position but at the same time it would deepen divisions within the GOP as other Republicans were forced to stand against him. Since Lindsay isn't going away in any case you might as well play for maximum disruption of the party.
I think the gist of your point is good but it assumes a centrist position that may or may not be accurate in this case. Also, this isn't really a compromise at all since most Americans, regardless of their position, lose far more than they gain by it.
Viewed through a difference lens--a compromise should benefit both parties to some extent, but it doesn't here. The 15 week ban improves things for pro-choice people in anti-choice states but represents a loss for pro-choice states and for anti-choice people in anti-choice states. You'll have the majorities in most states against this bill.
Further, the current status quo benefits pro-choice states in some ways as it increases revenue and provides an argument for why employers might want to locate in states with generally higher costs of living. Disney has already put a hold on moving employees out of California given Florida's worsening political climate.
Leaving aside whether a compromise would include a ban at some point after 15 weeks, Graham's bill is no compromise because it doesn't guarantee abortion rights prior to the ban.
"when they rejected the 'mainstream' compromise he offered that most Americans supposedly want"
15 weeks is not mainstream, nor a compromise. Opposition to a 15 week ban runs at about 60%. 20-21 weeks is a moderate compromise, since that seems to be about the tipping point. Plus 21 weeks is the earliest a fetus has ever been born and survived, so that makes logical sense as well.
"They CRAVE unrestricted abortion and probably eventually mandatory abortion up until birth"
No one craves abortion, full stop. Unrestricted abortion isn't even supported by a majority of pro-choice people, let alone the general populace.
"physically/neurologically indistinguishable from any other baby you would be imprisoned for harming"
That happens at about 24-26 weeks. It's called viability. Again, most pro-choice people oppose abortion after viability.
"the 'oh its just a bunch of cells' defense anymore"
That has always been the way to refer to a fertilized egg or zygote. Anti-abortionists claim that it is how pro-choice folks refer to fetuses as well, but that isn't true.
A fetus is more of a baby than two gay men playing house are in a marriage.
As everyone knows this bill has zero chance of passing the Senate, much less being signed by President Biden, it is a completely academic exercise to discuss the particulars of this bill.
Hey guess where most of the Profs in the Conspiracy work!
Plus, this is a chance for Somin to ingratiate himself with his colleagues: they mostly think he is a dangerous wack job, but oddball libertarians are welcome in the faculty lounge on days when they are denouncing Republicans and advancing a favored left wing cause.
I'm still waiting for the "vote with your feet" posting after the GOP ban abortion nationwide.
Nevada could go back to hosting women's ranches bringing context back to hours of old black-and-white movies.
That's why Graham proposed it now, rather than a few years back when it could have been enacted. The only proposals he's into that he actually WANTS passed are things he knows most Republicans oppose, when he gets up to something that would have wide support on the right you know he's just doing it for PR purposes.
Another Brett Belmore uncovered conspiracy!
Maybe, Brett, Graham is just as dumb as he appears.
Sarcastr0 is our resident expert on being as dumb as he appears?
Graham is, regrettably, my Senator, and I was following his dirty deeds even before I moved to SC. He's scum, but political smart scum: If he does something that hurts Republican prospects, you may rest assured he intended to hurt Republican prospects. He often does, which is why he's usually one of the left's favorite switch hitting Republicans.
I see what you did there.
It's fine to disagree with what Graham does.
But you've decided you know his inner thoughts and motives, and that what he does is secretly support Democrats.
Because you've got issues.
Sarcastro, can't you see that it's all part of one big conspiracy?
McConnell and Graham are actually secret Democrats and only pretend to be Republicans to fool the sheeple into thinking that we have two parties, when it's actually George Soros who controls all the puppets.
(As an aside, who knows what Lindsay Graham thinks? He contradicts himself so much that it's impossible to tell from his statements. A few months or so ago he was proclaiming that decisions about abortion should be left up to the individual states, now he's in favor of a federal law superseding the state laws. This is just the latest example.)
He thinks he should stay in office as long as he feels like it. That's what he thinks. Everything he says is just directed to that end.
It’s sort of like that line from It’s a Wonderful Life. Every time a Republican speaks a Democrat gains a vote. Every time someone goes to the grocery or the gas station a Republican gains a vote.
People have to shop. Republicans do not have to speak.
1) prices go up all the time and gas prices have gone back to normal, anyway. Meanwhile, the right to self-determine one's healthcare choices was just stripped from 50% of the voting population.
2) MAGA Republicans cannot help themselves.
Gas prices have most decidedly not gone back to normal.
Gas prices adjusted for inflation, going back to the late 1970s, run about $3.20 gallon average nationwide.
Today's average US gas price is $3.692 and dropping. Compared to $5.032 earlier this year after the Russian invasion of Ukraine. In fact, in Feb 2022, the price was $3.611. And if you look back to the late Summer for most years with lots of economic activity, the price runs around $3.60. That's what I'd call "back to normal."
Food prices, OTOH, are likely to stay high due to the Ukrainian wheat issue and exceptionally strong weather events around the world reducing crop yields via drought, flooding, and unseasonable temperatures.
Oh, Lord. Another Putin price hike moron.
When Biden was inaugurated the national average gas price was $2.40. The highest monthly gas price in 2021 was $2.60 and that year averaged around $2.20. Looking at 2015 - 2018 to screen out the pandemic there wasn’t a single month that even got to $3, and the average for that period was $2.50 give or take. So “most years the price runs around $3.60” is just made up bullshit. $3.692 is not anywhere near normal.
But I wish Biden had the balls to use your “prices go up all the time” line to address inflation. That’ll make him popular for sure. It’s been almost 50 years since prices went up like this.
You can’t escape this one by partisan hackery, because people’s actual experience will overwhelm the stream of bullshit.
Brett is applying the party purity test. Must agree with everyone in everything, particularly the most controversial and extreme ideas. Or else. It’s how they keep them damn RINOS out.
Right now the Republicans - all of them - need to just STFU for 2 months. Biden has butchered up the economy so badly that they should just let that run. Every time an R opens their mouths it lessons their chance of winning anything. Graham is an idiot for bringing this up now.
RINO = anyone that doesn't support Trump.
FFS... they're calling Liz Cheney a RINO.
Tax-cut & Spend Republicans haven't done right by the economy since before Reagan. Best years we've had in that time were all under Democrats like Clinton and Obama.
Much like the concealed carry reciprocity and the silencer deregulation bills. They're all stunts.
Setting aside your lack of knowledge of how many votes it takes to pass a bill, this is not something proposed "now, rather than a few years back." It's something that has been proposed continuously for years.
Stop. Brett. Just stop. Remember: every time you think you have uncovered the secret motives behind something, you're wrong.
My bet: in spite of Thomas' preference for narrowing the scope of the Interstate-Commerce clause, he will still uphold federal restrictions on abortion, including a total ban (if one ever comes), in accordance with the Clarence-Thomas-Must-Do-Whatever-Ginni-Thomas-Wants clause.
Basically agree with Professor Somin here. The federal government’s interstate commerce power ahouldn’t extend this far, but under current interpretations of the Interstate Commerce Clause, it may well.
It’s possible there may be a 2nd conservative besides Thomas interested in reconsidering Raich in order to make a 5-4 majority along with the Court’s 3 liberals. But I wouldn’t be so certain.
Agree City of Boerne v. Flores and Dobbs together make the 14th Amendment arguments on both sides DOA.
I'll say this. Republicans as conservatives do need to pass this law. Because it's a win - win.
The first win is brining US abortion law more in line with the rest of the world.
The bigger win however, is actually losing the law on Constitutional grounds, specifically federalism and the commerce clause. If it's deemed unconstitutional under the Commerce clause (as Thomas hinted might be the case in the partial birth abortion ban case).
If Congress can't limit abortion on Constitutional grounds, they also can't mandate it. And that way it would stay with the States.
I have no doubt that if Congress mandated abortion must be legal, the liberal justices would find that law Constitutional somehow.
But if on the other hand, the first law to make it to their plates was a law that limited abortion at 15 weeks...they would find it in their hearts to strike it down on Constitutional grounds. And Thomas might join them, with Roberts.
"The idea flies in the face of many years of Republican rhetoric to the effect that overruling Roe v. Wade (as the Court recently did in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization) would return the issue of abortion to the states."
It isn't rhetoric. Abortion has truly been returned to the states, and there is ample evidence to support this. I am presuming Graham's maneuvering is in response to Dem efforts to squash principles of federalism through attempting to enshrine Roe in federal law. Haven't seen you blog about that yet, though.
I am presuming Graham's maneuvering is in response to Dem efforts to squash principles of federalism through attempting to enshrine Roe in federal law.
Ah yes, only Democrats have agency. Republicans are always merely reacting to Democratic choices, whether they have actually been made or Dems gestured or thought about it.
Well... in fairness... only one party is actually doing the work required to govern our democracy these days.
If “govern our democracy” = “completely fuck up our economy”, then yeah you’ve got a great point. We could all use a lot less progressive governance.
The facts don't back this up. But even if I were to agree, arguendo, you'd still have to overcome the fact that the GOP has moved towards authoritarianism and is actively thwarting democracy, leaving Democrats, for better or worse, as the only pro-democracy of the two major parties.
Also, "progressive" doesn't carry all the negative baggage you seem to think it does. The majority of the truly progressive proposals being proposed these days don't go much beyond pre-existing programs like social security and medicare or reversing Trump's tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations. All of them aimed directly at the economic issues driving much of the current anger among earners in the lower two quartiles.
“The GOP has moved toward authoritarianism”. Meanwhile the liberty-loving Democrats are working hard using government weight to suppress speech that they don’t like.
Spare me the piety. Trumpism is awful and I don’t know what the GOP stands for any more, but your side as actively taking my liberty away and micromanaging every aspect of life. You’re a bigger threat to my liberty than guys like, say, Brett are.
One is actually happening, has happened, and has clear plans to continue to happen.
The other is like appointing blue ribbon committees that are kinda dumb.
I hope the speech suppression is the one your referring to as happening. And continuing.
Because they’ve been leaning on the SM companies for a while now. The emails are all over the internet. Certainly you’re not just going to glibly deny that one.
Speech suppression sucks, but even you know it's not happening - hence your use of the 'working hard' construction, rather than uncouched 'government weight.'
I don't disagree that there is a pretty awful censorship strain to too many on the left these days. But the Biden Admin is very much not on the left, despite their spicy twitter these days.
Social media companies are private, and they're getting pressure from both sides of the isle. There's a larger issue going on with the way social media works and enhances social unrest. Speech limits aren't the solution, granted, but private companies can legally censor all they want. The free market solution to that is to create your own social media company. That's what Trump did. This is a far cry from government mandated censorship of the sort we're seeing with the conservative trend (re-trend?) of book-banning and eliminating anti-racist education.
What other liberties are "my side" (speaking of assumptions) taking away from you?
“The idea flies in the face of many years of Republican rhetoric…”
The cat has been out of the bag for a very long time so at least let’s show some dignity and self-respect by admitting it was all just rhetoric and that a national ban has always been the goal. “State’s rights” was always a veneer intended to keep or at least not turn the heads of swing voters.
As for Yoo, the only sounds I ever want to hear from him are his yelping after the president has smashed his testicles with a mallet. Forever shame on Berkeley Law.
Republican rhetoric changes with the wind. One moment a sitting president shouldn't be allowed to nominate a justice in his final year in office and the next moment a sitting president should be able to nominate right up to the last minute. All it requires is a straight face, the flimsiest of excuses, and let confirmation bias do the rest.
It is unconstitutional. Just like Roe was.
You are...uh...comparing laws with Court cases.
You are also making yourself the Arbiter of the Constitution, when that's not actually you. We appoint people for that. You'd like the current crop!
Well, that train left the station with the headline of the OP.
Opining a law is unconstitutional is a normal thing.
Calling a Supreme Court decision about the Constitution unconstitutional is another kind of thing.
Dobbs like Brown upset some folks.
Most of the civilized world does not allow abortion after 15 weeks including those Euro's whom libs always like to emulate.
But it is a state issue
I like how no matter how many times this is refuted, you just keep reposting it.
RE: "Most of the civilized world does not allow abortion after 15 weeks including those Euro's whom libs always like to emulate."
WRAWWWWWWNG!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhnrrLxQEVQ
Whether Graham's law would be upheld would depend on the ideological breakdown of the court at that time, plus how they individually felt about the law. Raich redux.
Figure out your vote first, connect to interstate commerce second.
[90% of what the federal government does] is an Unconstitutional Assault on Federalism - But it Might Fly Under Current Supreme Court Precedent
prominent conservative legal scholar John Yoo
Excuse me while I throw up.
How in the world is this guy regarded as a prominent legal scholar by anyone? He should be shunned by all decent people everywhere.
Why does Somin promote him this way?
Yoo is on your side on this issue.
A jerk can be a jerk despite having some less-objectionable views.
Conversely, it's possible to disagree with people *without* being a jerk, but that would be too politically correct.
So when was the cutoff on abortions under Roe v. Wade? Would Roe v. Wade then have been considered an abortion ban?
1) Per Roe itself, "viability". Which at the time of Roe (1972) was around 24 weeks at the earliest, IIRC. The record earliest survival for pre-term infants has been pushed earlier by improved neonatal care, but there's a practical limit to survivability outside the womb that no court or legislature can mandate.
2) No. The Roe decision did not enact any sort of "ban". Roe said state laws can't ban abortion earlier than viability (see #1). The statement "states can't ban earlier than X" =/= "there is a ban after X". This is some basic, basic stuff when it comes to law and language....
Yoo is trying to regain the respectability he lost by advocating torture - by denouncing protection for the unborn. A much more sensible position.
If the fda is constitutional then so is an abortion limit.
The Abortion "Ban" that wouldn't ban 95% of Abortions??? Like Senator Graham's ever had to worry about abortions anyway.
The problem, as Somin points out, is that the expansive view of the Commerce Clause that has been in vogue since the 1930s, and has been applied in numerous cases, would permit a federal abortion ban.
It is disingenuous to claim hypocrisy when that expansive view has been used to enact all kinds of federal policies. If there is to be a retraction of the scope of federal authority -- something I would support -- it should not be limited to just abortion.
That's the Constitutional law point.
As for politics, it should be left to the states. Simple syllogism. If abortion = murder, then traditionally murder is a state matter. There is no general federal murder statute. 18 USC 1111 applies only "Within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States." That's defined here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7.
Basically it means on federal lands and on the high seas, although there are a few more examples.
You want to pass an abortion law limited to that, then fine.
The problem, as Somin points out, is that the expansive view of the Commerce Clause that has been in vogue since the 1930s, and has been applied in numerous cases, would permit a federal abortion ban.
Not even Somin goes so far: The relevant precedent is fuzzy enough that perhaps clever lawyers and judges will find a way to distinguish abortion from marijuana possession.
So? I go farther than Somin.
I don't see how after Gonzales v. Raich, a federal abortion ban would be beyond the Commerce Clause power. There individuals cultivated marijuana for their own medical use.
In that opinion, the majority stated:
Abortion has at least as much affect on interstate commerce as growing some weed in your own backyard for your own use. Usually a lot more affect.
So, no, I don't see how under teh current Commerce Clause case law, a law like Graham's would be held beyond Congress' ability to legislate.
If you're going farther than Somin, don't lean on him for authority on your take. In fact, you should consider why Somin didn't go so far, given his lede.
Raich cannot be read in a vacuum. Lopez and Morrison read quite differently than that. Plus, of course, Scalia and it was the demon weed.
My take is that it's ambiguous, and the Court could go both ways. Which means it's a Justice-by-Justice question. And I don't know how the current set will go given the competing interests of small government (narrowing the commerce clause) and big government (but abortion).
I'm with Bored Lawyer. What's the counter argument that strikes down the abortion ban without reversing Raich?
Insufficient federal nexus. Not required to further a federal program. That it’s new.
Or just lean in the other still good commerce clause precedents that go the other way.
Lots of ways to distinguish, or just quietly narrow Raiche.
Raich didn't require a regulation of economic activity to be part of another federal program so long as the regulation was of an economic activity.
The "it's new" argument would reverse Raich with a grandfather clause.
Your other points are conclusory.
I suppose that you start with three votes for striking down any abortion ban regardless of the rationale, just because it's abortion.
Thomas dissented in Raich, and quite vociferously. I think you could get him on board just because Raich ought to be reversed.
that leaves you five remaining Justices, and you only need one more.
Question: When two groups of dissenters join together to make a majority favoring the results, how is the rationale interpreted by subsequent courts? Does it set a precedent of any kind?
Lets suppose the proposed federal abortion restrictions pass, get challenged, and the case reached the Supreme Court. The 3 liberal justices apply their dissent to Dobbs to rule that the law is unconstitutional because abortion is protected is a fundamental right. Two conservative justices apply their dissent to Raich to rule that the law is unconstitutional because Congress lacks power to regulate the matter and it is reserved to the states (outside scope of Commerce Clause).
What then? Neither rationale commands a majority of the justices, and yet the two together make a majority.
Concurring in judgement but disagreeing on the "why" happens every now and then.
And it means that the "precedent" --if there is any from the case-- is exceptionally narrow.
Another rousing gathering of Libertarians For Statist Womb Management and Libertarians For Big-Government Micromanagement Of Ladyparts Clinics, conducted at America's foremost faux libertarian legal blog and animated, as always, by people who are animated largely by childish superstition a smart nine-year-old or dumb 13-year-old should have outgrown by now.
"Ladyparts"? I hope you're not on Twitter, that sort of transphobia can get you banned.
Overall this seems utterly schizophrenic to me. Dobbs was just hailed as a victory for state's rights, and now Graham immediately turns around and tries to turn it right back over to the Federal Government, so which is it?
Yoiu can characterize Dobbs as a victory for states' rights, or you can characterize it as a victory for allowing elected representatives to decide the issue rather than judges. The former is how some people want to see it; the latter is what the holding actually means.
Dobbs was about whether abortion is a fundamental right protected by the Due Process clause of the 5th and 14th Amendments; not whether its something reserved for the states under the 10th.
Isn't this like the third time Graham is proposed this bill?
Attempting something for the third time might be foolish for any number of reasons, but that's hardly schizophrenic.
And for that matter, politicians only ever care about "states' rights" when they don't think they can win at the federal level. The moment they see a federal win in sight, they memory-hole their previous advocacy for "states rights". So even if this was a flip on Graham's part (it isn't) then it would be entirely consistent with precedent vis-a-vis "states' rights"
As Judge Cannon cranks up the wood chipper to 11 and tosses the Rule of Law inside, the VC remains fixated on ahistorical states rights bullshit. Camp Swampy serves a feast for trolls while lawyers go elsewhere.
Not commenting on the particular substance here, but funny how Ilya always seems to conclude that conservative laws are invalid and progressive laws are A-OK.
See below. It's isn't as subsidized as you seem to believe.
Can't believe how dumb you guys are.
It's like if Congress was banning movie theaters. And you guys' response is "Well the real issue is, who is going to pay for people's movie tickets, hmmmmm?"
Socialized "medicine" or whatever you want to call it, is an unrelated issue. European countries tend to have a greater degree of socialism including for health care, than the US does. (The lower relative degree of socialism does not mean the US has free market capitalism - our health care system has virtually zero free market to it.) But the details of that are more nuanced and varied than you think. For example:
"Here in the United States," Mr. Becker says, "we spend about 17% of our GDP on health care, but out-of-pocket expenses make up only about 12% of total health-care spending. In Switzerland, where they spend only 11% of GDP on health care, their out-of-pocket expenses equal about 31% of total spending. The difference between 12% and 31% is huge. Once people begin spending substantial sums from their own pockets, they become willing to shop around. Ordinary market incentives begin to operate. A good bill would have encouraged that." https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704094104575144011906222520
But here I am falling for it. No, the question of who pays for the abortion is wholly irrelevant to the question of whether and to what degree abortion should be legal.
And anyway, people don't have to pay for their own abortions in the US, either. There are many private organizations and employers who will pay for abortions and even travel costs. There's not much to it, it doesn't cost very much to chop up a baby.
"Europe’s laws in this area"
The area we are talking about is at what point can an unborn human be killed for convenience.
ML writes "European countries tend to have a greater degree of socialism including for health care, than the US does" then quotes some facts about health care costs in Switzerland in support of his argument. The problem with that is, Swiss health care isn't socialist. It is high quality but expensive and paid for entirely by patients. Health insurance is mandatory - anyone in the country for more than 90 days is required to acquire a minimum level of coverage - but neither the health care costs nor the premiums are subsidized with public funds.
Yeah, when you're talking about European abortion laws, you should probably specify which European country you're talking about.
Thirty-six European countries met our inclusion criteria.
Most countries provided some level of public funding for
abortion, with 15 (42%) providing full funding, 12 (33%)
providing partial funding, 6 (17%) providing funding in only
exceptional cases and 3 (8%) providing no funding.
Meanwhile in the US
"16 states have a policy that directs Medicaid to pay for all or most medically necessary abortions. 7 of these states provide such funds voluntarily. 9 of these states do so pursuant to a court order."
"Medically necessary abortion was defined by the US Supreme Court in as a professional judgment made by a physician “exercised in the light of all factors - physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman's age - relevant to the wellbeing of the patient."
If you're a Planned Parenthood doctor, and your patient comes in and says she wants an abortion...I'm pretty sure you would find "medically necessary grounds" in some respect...emotional, familial, something.
"Medically necessary" is so broadly expanded in these situations, that it's basically null and void. The actual law in many European countries demands that abortion be "medically necessary" (for example the UK). It's can't be by choice, there needs to be a medical reason....and it's always easy to find on some grounds.
Queenie....
Medicaid paid for over 150,000 abortions in the US in 2015.
You think they were all "Medically necessary" except in the very loosest definition of the term?
The exemptions HERE are liberally interpreted in ways you’d never expect
Queenie...
What you're referring to are first trimester abortions, almost entirely.
Take a look to see how many second and third trimester abortions occur in the UK and Germany.
The US is nearly unique in that it allows 3rd trimester abortions, whereas 95% of the world doesn't.
Queenie...
"You for mental health exception and government subsidizing"
That already exists. Medicaid pays for 24% of all abortions in the US. Often under your mental health exception.
You want to go further? Government subsidizes a large chunk of private health insurance via Obamacare, which often covers abortion. (Self interest on the part of insurance companies...abortion is cheaper than pregnancy).
Yeah, and if they're found to have done so falsely, they can face professional sanctions. Unlike here in the US, where it's just one, and no prospect of sanctions.
I like the 2-3 physician certification requirement for any abortion exemptions. Not "mental health" though unless they are committed or something.
Do you have any evidence that there is any prospect of sanctions there? How on earth would you ever find that someone has "falsely" certified that an abortion will prevent injury to the mental health of the pregnant woman?
Doe v Bolton, look it up. Ruling was issued on the same day as Roe v Wade.
You two should get a room.
And plot the overthrow of the US.
They might be in the same room you know. And wearing the same sweatpants and Velcro shoes.
I lament that my carefully crafted jewel of a post was cast before swine.
Or, maybe, you are a radical and are agreeing with maybe the biggest radical on here, in terms of their vision for America. And I thought that worth noting.
RE: "What you're referring to are first trimester abortions, almost entirely. [...] Take a look to see how many second and third trimester abortions occur in the UK and Germany. "
The reason few second and third trimester abortions occur in UK and Germany is the same as the reason few second and third trimester abortions occur in USA: there aren't many patients who need them.
RE: "The US is nearly unique in that it allows 3rd trimester abortions, whereas 95% of the world doesn't."
You don't know what you are talking about. 95% of the rest of the world DOES allow third trimester abortions, if they are necessary to protect the patient's life or health. And "health" is interpreted very broadly.
This falls directly into the "be careful what you wish for" category.
I think the whole anti-choice thing was only useful as an election tool for as long as it was never actually delivered. Now it's a liability.
I could not have been more obviously sarcastic in my first sentence.
And no, I'm not radical - I'm an incrementalist institutionalist liberal. It is a commom symptoms of radicals that they see the mainstream as the radical ones.
You are a radical because your vision for what America should be is radically different than it is...do you deny that?
A reactionary has no vision for America, they just want to own the opposition. Plenty of them on here; you are not one of them.
It's not the complement, it's what you complemented.
M L wants to live in a pre-14th Amendment world.
He does not believe the 14A includes incorporation, or birthright citizenship, and he thinks the South was legally correct in the Civil War.
And he cited 1859 as the ideal Federal spending per capita.
But the point is his comment that 90% of what the government does is unconstitutional.
That's...well, that's a radical take on what America should become.
OK, then. What about what I believe is radical?
Reactionary: "(of a person or a set of views) opposing political or social liberalization or reform."
Me: "A reactionary has no vision for America, they just want to own the opposition."
Also me: "You are a radical because your vision for what America should be is radically different than it is"
So what is your issue with my definitions?
Radical means liberal and reactionary means conservative?
Those seem redundant definitions to me, and not very useful at all.
Bottom line: you know what I meant when calling you and ML radicals, and that it wasn't calling you liberals.
And even under your definition of radical, when have I indicated I want extreme liberal change? Is this more nonsense about Obama being a sekret radical?
I spend most of my time on here defending institutions and the status quo against those who want to change it!
"government funding of abortion services, liberally interpreted broad exemption"
Medicaid paid for 150,000+ abortions in the US in 2015, all of which were supposedly "medically necessary"
"You don't know what you are talking about. 95% of the rest of the world DOES allow third trimester abortions, if they are necessary to protect the patient's life or health. And "health" is interpreted very broadly."
You put a caveat on that. "If they are necessary to protect the patient's health". I didn't put any such caveat in place.
Again, there's no caveat on that in the US. If you want to, you can get an abortion on a perfectly healthy 35 week old unborn child in parts of the US, for any reason you want...or none at all.
That doesn't exist in 95% of the world.
So? Nobody does. It's not illegal to drink a thousand gallons of water either, even though you'll die if you do.
Is there some kind of problematic epidemic of late-term abortions that concerns you, or are you just a pedantophile?