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S. Ct. (5-4) Won't Temporarily Stop N.Y. Ruling that Orthodox Jewish Yeshiva U. Recognize "LGBTQ Student Group"
From Yeshiva Univ. v. YU Pride Alliance, decided today by the Supreme Court:
Applicants Yeshiva University and its president seek emergency relief from a non-final order of the New York trial court requiring the University to treat an LGBTQ student group similarly to other student groups in its student club recognition process. The application is denied because it appears that applicants have at least two further avenues for expedited or interim state court relief.
First, applicants may ask the New York courts to expedite consideration of the merits of their appeal. Applicants do not assert, nor does the Appellate Division docket reveal, that they have ever requested such relief. Second, applicants may file with the Appellate Division a corrected motion for permission to appeal that court's denial of a stay to the New York Court of Appeals, as the Appellate Division clerk's office directed applicants to do on August 25. Applicants may also ask the Appellate Division to expedite consideration of that motion.
If applicants seek and receive neither expedited review nor interim relief from the New York courts, they may return to this Court.
Justice Alito, joined by Justices Thomas, Gorsuch, and Barrett, dissented:
Does the First Amendment permit a State to force a Jewish school to instruct its students in accordance with an interpretation of Torah that the school, after careful study, has concluded is incorrect? The answer to that question is surely "no." The First Amendment guarantees the right to the free exercise of religion, and if that provision means anything, it prohibits a State from enforcing its own preferred interpretation of Holy Scripture. Yet that is exactly what New York has done in this case, and it is disappointing that a majority of this Court refuses to provide relief.
Yeshiva University hosts our nation's largest Jewish undergraduate institution. That "program is structured to help students embrace the Jewish faith and engage with the secular world from a foundation of Torah values." Thus, Yeshiva expects its undergraduate students "to live in accordance with halachic norms and Torah ideals."
A student group, the YU Pride Alliance (the Alliance), "vehemently disagreed" with Yeshiva's interpretation of Torah with respect to sexual relations between members of the same sex, so it applied for recognition as an official student group in order to "'make a statement'" and promote "'cultural changes'" in the institution. To facilitate those goals, the Alliance planned to host events that framed Jewish practices and religious events through an LGBTQ lens.
"After much deliberation" and in consultation with senior rabbis, Yeshiva concluded that recognizing the Alliance would have "implications that are not consistent with Torah." Doing so, Yeshiva believed, would "'cloud [the] nuanced message'" of Torah, which "'accept[s] each individual with love,'" but also "'affirm[s] its timeless prescriptions.'" The University therefore denied the Alliance's request for formal recognition but made it clear that students could "'socialize in gatherings [as] they see fit.'"
Dissatisfied with this response, the Alliance sued Yeshiva in state court, claiming that its refusal to recognize the group violated a provision of the New York City Human Rights Law (NYCHRL) that forbids discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender. The trial court agreed.
Perfunctorily dismissing the University's First Amendment arguments, the court ordered Yeshiva to recognize the group and to "immediately" grant it "the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, and privileges afforded to all other student groups." The court denied Yeshiva's request for a stay pending appeal, and when the University applied to the Appellate Division and the Court of Appeals for interim relief, those courts refused without providing a single word of explanation.
As a last resort, Yeshiva turned to this Court, but the majority—for no good reason—sends the University back to the state courts. The upshot is that Yeshiva is almost certain to be compelled for at least some period of time (and perhaps for a lengthy spell) to instruct its students in accordance with what it regards as an incorrect interpretation of Torah and Jewish law.
An applicant may obtain a stay pending appeal if it makes a strong showing (1) that it would likely prevail if review is granted, (2) that it will suffer irreparable harm during the time it takes for the completion of the appellate process, and (3) that neither the interests of other parties nor those of the public militate in favor of denial. Yeshiva easily satisfies all these requirements.
At least four of us are likely to vote to grant certiorari if Yeshiva's First Amendment arguments are rejected on appeal, and Yeshiva would likely win if its case came before us. A State's imposition of its own mandatory interpretation of scripture is a shocking development that calls out for review. The Free Exercise Clause protects the ability of religious schools to educate in accordance with their faith. Restrictions on religious exercise that are not "neutral and of general applicability" must survive strict scrutiny, and the NYCHRL treats a vast category of secular groups more favorably than religious schools like Yeshiva. The NYCHRL exempts any "corporation incorporated under the benevolent orders law or described in the benevolent orders law." It is therefore inapplicable to large groups like the American Legion and the Loyal Order of Moose, as well as smaller groups like the United Scottish Clans of New York and New Jersey.
But Yeshiva was denied an exemption, and there has been no showing that granting an exemption to Yeshiva would undermine the policy goals of the NYCHRL to a greater extent than the exemptions afforded to hundreds of diverse secular groups. Accordingly, strict scrutiny applies. Based on the papers submitted to us in connection with this application, it is not likely that the Alliance could satisfy its burden under that standard.
Unless a stay is granted, Yeshiva will be required to recognize the Alliance as an official student group and to grant it all the privileges extended to other such groups. As the Alliance has contended, this would force Yeshiva to make a "statement" in support of an interpretation of Torah with which the University disagrees. The loss of First Amendment rights for even a short period constitutes irreparable harm, and the appellate process in the state courts could easily drag on for many months. And as for the interests of Alliance members and the general public, while a stay would deprive the Alliance of the statement it wishes to obtain, Alliance members would not be prevented from socializing and conducting activities that do not require official recognition.
The majority does not address our well-established standard for granting a stay but instead suggests that we cannot grant a stay because the New York courts have not entered a final order. But the state courts' denial of interim relief constitutes a final order under National Socialist Party of America v. Skokie (1977). It is ironic that the theory that supported a stay in that case is eschewed here. Moreover, it is far from clear that our authority to issue a stay of a state court order that violates the Constitution is limited to situations in which a final order has been entered below.
The majority instructs Yeshiva to pursue two avenues of relief in state court before filing another application here. First, the University is told to seek "expedit[ed] consideration of the merits of [its] appeal." But even expedited review could take months, and during all that time, the University would be required to continue to make the statement about Torah that it finds objectionable. Thus, an expedited appeal in and of itself would not be sufficient to protect Yeshiva's First Amendment rights.
Second—and more to the point—the majority seems to think that it is still possible for the University to persuade the Court of Appeals to grant a stay. Of course, the Court of Appeals has already denied Yeshiva's application for interim relief, but the majority interprets a case comment written by a court clerk employed by the Appellate Division to mean that the Court of Appeals may give Yeshiva a second bite at the apple notwithstanding its previous denial. That interpretation is dubious, yet the majority seizes upon it as dispositive.
I doubt that Yeshiva's return to state court will be fruitful, and I see no reason why we should not grant a stay at this time. It is our duty to stand up for the Constitution even when doing so is controversial….
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Procedurally the SC is probably correct.
Though I would like highlight the lower courts and NY 's hostility to religion
I would highlight the superstitious litigants' strenuous embrace of bigotry.
Wrapping bigotry in a cloak of superstition does not improve that bigotry, nor transform that bigotry into anything other than bigotry. A superstitious gay-basher is just an especially gullible, obsolete bigot.
Bigots have rights, too -- but not the right to avoid being recognized or label as bigots by better Americans.
Rev, I'm neither Jewish nor anti-Gay. I could explain why I hold those positions without calling opposite positions "supersitions". Could you do the same in support of your positions?
I see the Rev is a hateful bigot. He is a childish troll who wants to enrage others. I've blocked his posts so I don't have to read any more of his immature, anti-semitic rants.
You are welcome to wallow in political correctness. I have lost my taste for it. I call a bigot a bigot and superstition superstition. Entirely accurate terms. Some prefer euphemisms ("traditional values," "conservative values," "religious values," "family values," "Republican," "heartland," "colorblind"). I will stick with non-euphemistic accuracy. You are welcome to try to diminish disapproval of bigotry or superstition by calling bigotry or superstition something else.
"You are welcome to wallow in political correctness. I have lost my taste for it."
I think you posted here that you used to be a Democratic politician, or elected official.
Is this one of those situations where a politician stops running for office, and then feels free to talk freely about what he *really* thinks of the voters?
When you were seeking votes, did you refer to voters as "clingers" who were to be stomped into submission and have progress shoved down their thoats by their betters, including yourself?
Or did you pretend to respect them, causing resentment to boil up inside your soul until finally you get to unburden yourself to readers on the Internet?
" Is this one of those situations where a politician stops running for office, and then feels free to talk freely about what he *really* thinks of the voters? "
No.
As the public discourse coarsened -- more hostility, more delusion, a return to overt bigotry, more disaffectedness, more un-Americanism -- I began to question why we should enable those with stale, ugly, unpopular views to hide behind euphemisms.
Similarly, I think it is wrong for this white, male, right-wing blog to advertise itself as "often libertarian" without mentioning the movement conservatism that dominates it.
"As the public discourse coarsened"
Don't you hate it when that happens?
It's an irritant, but so long as the tides of the culture war and American progress continue along their longstanding, relatively predictable, highly desirable trajectory, it's a relatively minor and inconsequential irritant. And, from the long-term perspective, likely a temporary problem.
Can you tell us to what uncharted shores the tides of progress are going to carry the ship of state, or would that spoil the surprise?
Indeed. Although if (once) NY denies interim relief...it's not looking good NY at the SCOTUS
Until this case developed, I was not aware that (at least some) Jews are as bigoted as many Christians. I would have expected to observe something different.
Carry on, clingers.
Let's hope the Rev doesn't learn about mainstream Islam...
There isn't much to recommend any flavor of superstition? Competent adults prefer reason and the reality-based world?
You might be right.
Carry on, gullible clingers.
So we should or should not import superstitious clingers hand over fist?
I favor ample immigration, for a number of reasons. I would not discriminate against the superstitious.
If he posts about Islam he may get charged with a hate crime. He may also get some angry radicals actually looking for him for very bad reasons.
I am not enough of a Bible expert to cite line & verse, but I'm pretty sure that it the Old Testament that condemns homosexuality.
One more reason competent adults do not believe in any book of fairy tales.
"But the state courts' denial of interim relief constitutes a final order under National Socialist Party of America v. Skokie (1977). It is ironic that the theory that supported a stay in that case is eschewed here."
Go for the Godwin!
I hate Illinois Nazis, except when their case provides a precedent which ought to have helped Jews.
From Rehnquist’s dissent in that case: “ I simply do not see how the refusal of the Supreme Court of Illinois to stay an injunction granted by an inferior court within the state system can be described as a "[f]inal judgmen[t] or decre[e] rendered by the highest court of a State in which a decision could be had," which is the limitation that Congress has imposed on our jurisdiction to review state-court judgments…”
Conservative jurisprudence sure has changed.
I think conservatives, progressives, Single-Taxers, monarchists, etc., can pretty much agree that Jews should have the same rights as Nazis.
This case is a perfect example of what I posted about here before
conflation of ideology/philosophy with identity discrimination. YU does not bar gays from attending any of its programs. Or any of its extracurricular activities. It simply does not want to officially recognize a club whose philosophy differs from it and it finds objectionable. NY state's imposition of its viewpoint in the name of an anti-discrimination law is simply a runaround the First Amendment. (Someone here will soon be posting that the club is intertwined with LBGTQ identity, like same-sex marriage. BS.)
Suppose a group of students want to form an ANTIFA chapter, or a Black Lives Matter group. A private university (which YU is) does not want to recognize it, because it disagrees with those groups philosophies. Is that racial discrimination? Absurd.
I'll be the first.
Yeshiva objects to more than a viewpoint. They object to a viewpoint that conduct (gay sex) which is inextricably linked to being gay is not sinful. There is no comparable conduct with ANTIFA or Black Lives Matter.
Right. They object to a viewpoint.
Are you seriously suggesting that YU's viewpoint is beyond 1st Amendment protection? And that the State can force someone to adhere to the contrary viewpoint in the name of "anti-discrimination." That is what is happening here.
This is precisely the kind of abuse of discrimination laws that I have been talking about. Essentially, anything gays want must be given to them in the name of "no discrimination." That is far beyond what these laws were designed to do.
Of course YU has a colorable First Amendment case. But, they are discriminating against gays and must mount a First Amendment defense to justify that discrimination.
An example of what I think doesn't pass muster as discrimination against gays is the refusal to serve a rally calling for the passage of the Respect for Marriage Act. Support for the Act is not conduct inextricably linked to being gay.
I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to draw here. Presumably this organization does not hold same-sex orgies; it advocates. Which is similarly "not conduct inextricably linked to being gay."
If Yeshiva turned them down only because they advocate for gay conduct not being considered sinful, I would agree. But I suspect Yeshiva turned them down because they engage in sinful conduct apart from any advocacy the group may engage in. As Alito wrote in his dissent:
Shit-rate bigots have rights, to!
Including the rights to believe as they wish, continue to lose the culture war, continue to be called bigots, and continue to be replaced by better Americans
But the ones being imported to do the replacing are more religious and opposed to gay marriage than the ones here! Don't forget Prop 8 in California.
If gay sex is inextricably linked to bring gay then is heterosexual sex inextricably linked to being heterosexual?
If so, what about an organization that requires celibacy? Are they discriminating against everyone who is not asexual?
“Unless a stay is granted, Yeshiva will be required to rec- ognize the Alliance as an official student group and to grant it all the privileges extended to other such groups. As the Alliance has contended, this would force Yeshiva to make a “statement” in support of an interpretation of Torah with which the University disagrees. The loss of First Amend- ment rights for even a short period constitutes irreparable harm, Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo, 592 U. S. ___, ___ (2020) (per curiam) (slip op., at 5), and the appellate process in the state courts could easily drag on for many months. And as for the interests of Alliance members and the general public, while a stay would deprive the Alli- ance of the statement it wishes to obtain, Alliance members would not be prevented from socializing and conducting ac- tivities that do not require official recognition.”
Man, Alito and the dissenters are going to freak the fuck out when they find out that Younger Abstention prevents federal courts from intervening when state courts and prosecutors are depriving people of their first, second, fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, and fourteenth amendment rights among others when they continue an unconstitutional prosecution that can drag on for years let alone months.
Younger abstention does not apply to a direct appeal to the Supreme Court. That is what this is.
I know. But it does prevent federal courts, which includes SCOTUS, from enjoining state court criminal proceedings that infringe on constitutional rights. You have to go through the entire state court process first no matter what. So Alito’s whining here about how many months appeals might take and how harmed the university is farcical in that context. If he thinks that rights are so important federal courts should intervene in state court proceedings right away, he should be consistent and call for an end to Younger abstention. Much more rights are at stake in criminal cases including ones he actually likes! It’s not like he’s shy about overruling precedent.
But I think we both know that he’s not a consistent or serious jurist. He’s just picking favorites among parties and rights in contexts where it suits him to do so.
IF you know, then you know that there is no inconsistency in Alito's position. Federal and state courts are supposed to operate in parallel, and Younger abstenion means that a federal trial court should not interfere with a state trial court.
The Supreme Court is the ultimate appellate court in the land for both systems. So it can grant stays for both systems.
So, no, this proves nothing about Alito as a serious jurist.
So if I move to dismiss an indictment in state court for an unconstitutional prosecution and it’s denied, Alito and the Court will stay the prosecution, right? Because my remedy of appealing a possible conviction and sentence after trial is inadequate, right? Given that I would have to go through a possible sentence and even be detained pretrial (let alone the collateral consequences)? And after all Younger has nothing to do with SCOTUS’s relationship to state courts? Right? Alito is going to give me that stay?
No hypocrisy is quite as heinous as the completely hypothetical kind.
It’s not hypothetical hypocrisy. It’s an existing inconsistency. We actually know the answer to these questions, because the law on abstention in criminal matters is clear and Alito knows it as well as anyone. But that’s not stopping him from whining about state courts doing their process here and how bad it is that someone’s rights might be violated for months, despite that very reasoning being rejected in Younger and subsequent cases due to “our federalism.”
The essence of Younger is not, "Federal trial courts can't grant this relief, so you should jump right to the Supreme Court."
There are colorable arguments in favor of Yeshiva University (church autonomy, expressive association, most-favored nation treatment for religious conduct), but the above statement is a giant straw man. The anti-discrimination law takes no position on how to interpret scripture.
Read the case. The group and YU have different interpretations of the Torah. The group wants official recognition as a YU club so it can promote its interpretation.
Suppose a group of students decided that the Torah permits pork. (The Reform do.) They decide to form a "Pork-eaters Club." They intend to hold seminars promoting their interpretation, and then handing out recipes for tasty pork dishes. Can the State of NY force YU to recognize them as an official club? That's about what is happening here.
If the state had a law which proscribed discrimination on the basis of what food you ate (of course, there is no such law), then denying recognition to the Pork-eaters club would violate that law. As I said above, it's possible YU wins because of church autonomy, expressive association or most-favored nation treatment of religious belief. But in no way does that law say one thing about how scripture should be interpreted.
It's not the law, it's the application of the law. They have to give official recognition to a group whose viewpoint expressly differs from theirs.
The application has a disparate impact against a particular reading of scripture. That is not the same as the state having its own interpretation of scripture.
If the state knows about the "disparate impact". And if the application of the law is aimed at effecting that disparate impact. It would appear the state is directly enforcing its views on the scripture through "indirect" means.
You could argue the statue in Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. City of Hialeah was just "disparate impact". But it's pretty clear what was actually going on.
In this particular case, it's basically the same.
Knowing there is a disparate impact does not establish intent. There was ample evidence in Lukumi that the Santeria practice was not merely disparately impacted, but was the target of the law. No such evidence exists in this case in either the law or its application.
Recognition is not the same as endorsement, especially when you can --truthfully and publicly-- say that your recognition is court-ordered.
Claiming they are the same --as you and the dissent does-- is the sign of an idiot or someone that hopes that their readers are.
Last time this came up, I was able to find the current YU charter online in a few minutes. Now I've been searching for an hour and I can't bring it up. Does anyone have a link to the actual text of the actual charter? As I recall, it explicitly states that the University is NOT a religious institution.
There is a discussion of this in the original opinion of the state court; as I recall, YU could have claimed it was a religious institution for the purposes of NY law but instead described itself as educational.
The only thing I want to know is whether Yeshiva University is benefiting from public funding. If so, they have to play by the rules.
Do you think that public funding wipes out your First Amendment rights? That would be a surprising development to many universities.
No, public funding doesn't "wipe out your first-amendment rights". You willingly agree not to exercise your first-amendment rights, when you accept public funding. You have the option to change your mind and begin exercising your first-amendment rights at any time, if you are willing to stop accepting public funding at that time, when you do.
(Just as, being my guest for dinner does not "wipe out your first-amendment rights" either, but I retain the right to order you to stop eating, and leave immediately, if you exercise your first-amendment rights in a way which offends me. You still have your rights, but I still have mine.)
I'm not sure whether the court in this case gave the university the option you describe.
In any case, just about everything gets public funding. If a condition of accepting govt. funds or govt-subsidized services was to support the Republican Party, then Democrats and other non-Republicans would have to stay off the roads and sidewalks, keep out of public parks, forego stimulus checks, etc.
That's not what the law is, fortunately.
Did Lester Maddox get any public funding?
For those responding- this is *exactly* one of the major issues in the actual case. Back in the 1960s, Yeshiva University realized that without government funding it would not be financially sustainable. So it amended its undergraduate charter to specify that it is a nondenominational institution in order to maintain federal and state funding, and has represented itself as such since. The law school and (when it existed) the medical school also represented themselves that way. The Rabbinical school is chartered separately and obviously is a denominational institution.
If all of this were being set up today, it would likely be set up differently, because the Supreme Court would likely be friendly towards requiring federal funding of a religious university, at least one that maintains certain educational standards. But it isn't at the moment, and that's a significant part of the lawsuit. Yeshiva College *acts* like a religious institution, but it's not incorporated as one, and while the Supreme Court will probably end up ruling that it can still be or act as a religious institution and maintain funding, that's why it's working its way through the courts.
I wonder what the plaintiffs would do if YU changed its charter to declare itself a religious institution.
I guess they'd drop their lawsuit once they realized they were going after a religious institution. /sarc
My read is that some parts of the majority hope that once Yeshiva University is forced to accept the group for a period of time (while the state courts consider the matter), it will be much harder to subsequently dissolve the group.
In effect, the majority's cowardice will result in even more doubt of the court's integrity when YU nevertheless ends up doing exactly that.
I also wouldn't be surprised if all the intimidation tactics got to Kavanugh and Roberts after all.
The only joke I know about Yeshiva University.
Yeshiva University finds itself playing American football against Notre Dame. At the end of the first quarter, YU are down 42-0 and the YU quarterback says to the team, I think they're reading our calls so I'm going to call them in Yiddish.
At the start of the second quarter, the quarterback calls, "grin, zibn un fertsik, grin, zibn un fertsik!" Notre Dame's tackle stands up and says, "Es vet dir gornisht helfen!".
I bet you if this was a leftist cause of the day there is no way the four libs on the court would have voted to boot it on bare procedural grounds....
Noscitur a sociis
September.15.2022 at 12:11 am
No hypocrisy is quite as heinous as the completely hypothetical kind
Honestly that should be the Volokh comment section motto.
Any motto that does not include a vile racial slur is unsuitable here.
Justice Alito states: "Unless a stay is granted, Yeshiva will be required to recognize the Alliance as an official student group and to grant it all the privileges extended to other such groups. As the Alliance has contended, this would force Yeshiva to make a 'statement' in support of an interpretation of Torah with which the University disagrees." Could someone explain to me how this is so? Recognizing a club that interprets the Torah differently than the university doesn't seem like an endorsement of the club's interpretation of the Torah; it's only an acknowledgement that the club can hold meetings like all the other clubs on campus. How does that force the university to endorse a view contrary to the University's interpretation?
If the club is affiliated with the university, then it can use the university's name to advertise its activities and imply a certain (weak) endorsement. The university also shares some liability for
the club's activities and behavior.
Let's take an extreme example to sharpen the point. Suppose that the local faction of the Hitler Youth wanted a club at Yeshiva University. There is nothing illegal about this desire ... but most reasonable people would understand why a Jewish institution would be deeply uncomfortable to have such an affiliated club.
This is not the KKK marching through Skokie (a public communal area).
Sure.
Until the school blasts on a bull-horn "court-ordered" every time the club claims affiliation or endorsement.
That might erase any purported confusion over whether or not the (in their own words, a supposedly non-denominational) school supports the club's interpretation of the Torah.
Isn't the question if Yeshiva University is a public or private university (and the answer is Private).
So they should be authorized to make up whatever rules/restrictions they want (however meshuggah they are).
The rule is not Meshuggah. Judaism has laws. Certain behavior is prohibited. This does not mean that the behavior is bad. Indeed, much of the behavior is good. Abstention from this behavior represents a sacrifice we make in order to comply with the law.
Yeshiva should either refuse to comply with the orders from the New York courts or it should cancel all classes and activities until the NY Court orders are overruled.
What next? Will the NY courts start issuing rulings about what food is kosher?
What would be wrong with ordering them to serve pork? Are you an oinkophobe?
What Yeshiva should do is follow Liberty U's example: choose which is more important, government money or discrimination, and stick to whichever path they pick. Trying to straddle the line is what landed in this mess, and picking a side is the easiest way out.
The dissent is pure Brennan & Marshall. I remember the days when minority religious groups still had the right to practice their faith under the constitution. I'm disappointed in Kagan and Brown-Jackson. Sotomayor has always been hostile to minority faith groups. Roberts and Kavanaugh are straight up majoritarians.
Just a preview of the lawless chaos to come.
Alito appears to be very interested in continuing the line of cases, dating back to the Rehnquist Court, of finding a strange "right to discriminate against gays" that runs through First Amendment jurisprudence. No longer content to read it simply into the Free Speech Clause, we're now preparing to overrule Employment Div. v. Smith, in essence, by characterizing any distinction whatsoever with religious organizations as sufficient to make a law no longer "generally applicable," and it just so happens that all of the cases that the Court is flirting with to do this involve discriminating against gay people.
Like Scalia before him, Alito is no doubt confident that the potential, perverse result inspired by imposing such a silly constitutional standard - i.e., the elimination of any exceptions whatsoever from otherwise generally-applicable laws in order to avoid "strict scrutiny" - will never come to pass. When Scalia held that the First Amendment didn't protect minority religious practices from the application of generally applicable, facially neutral laws, he evidently was calculating that the rule he was laying down would never come back to harm Catholics or Christians, since they had political power to prevent that from happening. Similarly, Alito seems to believe that state legislatures would prefer to exempt religious organizations under a "most favored nation" rule rather than to eliminate otherwise reasonable exceptions from their laws, even if doing so would harm their legislative purposes.
The shit will really hit the fan when/if organizations with sincere conscientious objections to anti-LGBT animus try to invoke the same standards Alito is sketching out here in order not to accommodate believers. If universities can't require student groups to admit LGBT students, and states can't require universities to acknowledge LGBT groups, then why should universities be required to acknowledge conservative Christian student groups or other organizations interested in promoting "traditional" family values?
Somehow, I suspect that Alito, Barrett, et al., will find a way to force them to, and then they'll lecture us about how they get to decide whether they are a "legitimate" Court, not us.
I think this SCOTUS decision was correct, for the reasons stated above by LawTalkingGuy: people are required to sit in jail for years while the full state appellate process plays out, but this case is one where a party can just skip all that and go right to the Supreme Court and get a shadow docket injunction?
But at the end of the day, however long it takes, the plaintiffs are going to lose, and are going to lose hard. New York is pulling the same sort of nonsense that got spiked in Hosanna-Tabor and Morrissey-Berru: oh, there are some secular aspects to your existence, so therefore there are no institutional religious interests.
I agree that the decision is procedurally correct. The Supreme Court should be careful not to appear to be altering the rules to dash its favorites in the front of the line when, as you note, there are plenty of people with good claims asked to wait years in prison before getting their turn.
That said, I agree that New York’s position of requiring people to register in one category only resembles France’s, whose courts straightfacedly held that only organizations focusing on prayer and worship can organize as religious institutions, and therefore a kosher supervision organization gets classified as a simple business with no right to press any religious rights.
A difficulty here is there is precedent in New York’s favor. The key precedent, as I see it, is Christian Legal Society v. Martinez. In that case, the Supreme Court ruled that a state law school could apply discrimination laws to student religious groups, including requiring them to accept all comers as members and leaders.
What New York has done to Yeshiva University seems similar to what Hastings Law School did to Christian Legal Society. CLS dependended on the idea that student religious froups aren’t churches, and only churches get institutional teligious protections. That makes New York’s position much more plausible.
It’s possible that, as the dissent argued, New York’s rule is so riddled with exceptions that it can’t justify not making an exception for religion as well. But unless Hastings is overruled, it would appear that at least if New York is willing to remove its exceptiins, it would be able to enforce its law.
CLS was a 5-4 decision authored by Ginsberg with Kennedy in the majority. The replacement of Kennedy by Kavanaugh and Ginsberg by Barrett suggests the court today might rule differently if it revisited the issue.
"The Supreme Court should be careful not to appear to be altering the rules to dash its favorites in the front of the line when, as you note, there are plenty of people with good claims asked to wait years in prison before getting their turn."
As discussed above (and as then-Justice Rehnquist complained at the time), the Court let Illinois Nazis move to the front of the line in a situation like the one in the YU case. So it's a question of whether a Jewish university has the same rights as Illinois Nazis.
The Court held in CLS that the recognition of student groups creates a limited public forum and thus the state need only act in a viewpoint neutral manner (including an all-comers policy). I think in this case refusal to recognize a student group does not trigger limited public forum analysis, and Yeshiva has a better case (and certainly a more friendly court).
I think the key issue was that CLS saw student religious groups as educational groups, not religious ones, making the relevant analysis a free-speech anlysis, not a religion one. Chuches get to control their members and ministers and are exempt from even viewpoint neutral laws (like discrimination laws.)
So this suggests adds plausibility to New York’s decision that because Yeshiva University was set up as an educational institution and not an eccliesiastical one means, like the religious student groups which were treated as meee efucation groups, it gets only free speech clause rights and not religion clause rights.
A lot has changed since then, but it’s still the precedent.
But again, that precedent said limited public forum analysis applies when a state school recognizes a student group. It did not cover the case of when a state law requires a private school to recognize a student group. I would think ordinary strict scrutiny would apply (assuming this case is decided based on speech and not religion) which is tougher for the state to overcome. That being said, I do not know if Yeshiva's expressive association is sufficient to prevail.
CLS was not litigated as a church autonomy case. Indeed, it was barely litigated as a religious freedom case at all. It was litigated as a free speech case.
Those who seek limitless special privilege for religion should consider whether they would be willing to endure the flip side -- expansive special privilege disfavoring religion . . . particularly in a country whose electorate is steadily becoming less religious.
I once heard Bill Clinton say 'I think everybody currently on top should try to arrange a world in which the situation is good for those who are not currently on top . . . and should do so out of self interest if nothing else.' Two minutes or so later he said 'Saudi Arabia is not, has never been, and will never be our friend, and anyone who says otherwise is probably being paid to do so, directly or indirectly.' Both struck me as very sound observations.
Rev. Kieckland, this is not one of your best arguments.
Would people who argue for the a right of habeas corpus be willing to endure a society with lots of arbitrary detentions? No, frankly, and that’s WHY they argue for a right to habeas corpus.
You can always argue everything is symmetric. Sometimes things aren’t.
No doubt slaveholders considered their rights to have been violated by emancipation. But you can’t simply flip the positions of slaves and slaveholders and argue everything is symmetric and the rights of slaveholders ought to be just as important as the rights of slaves. Sometimes things just aren’t symmetric.
The way I've heard it expressed before is with the following (paraphrased) parable:
A wealthy man dies, and his two sons are working to divide his property and holdings, as they are both entitled to half.
The older brother takes on the task of dividing the property, and goes to his younger brother with a proposal. The younger brother agrees to the division, but only if he can have the part set-aside by the older brother, which is unacceptable to the older brother.
I think there's a middle part of the parable, but it ends when the older brother realizes the younger brother's game: the younger brother isn't concerned with how their father's property is divided, so long as the older brother is willing accept either parcel: the younger brother views the older brother only being happy with a specific slice of the pie as him knowingly dividing the pie unequally.
In this context, your habeas rebuttal is a good example of what not to do: do not accept a society with habeas violations unless you are okay regardless of which line you fall on in such a society.
In the broader scheme, the advice is that you shouldn't argue for exemptions and exceptions if you aren't comfortable when those exceptions/exemptions are used against you.
Or, as I put it frequently... if your god's hatred of gays is a good reason for you to deny service to me, then it should be a good reason for me to deny service to you. If you are unwilling to accept the second half of that sentence, you have no right arguing for the first half.
I think that to the extent religious exemption laws permit exemptions from discrimination laws against gay people on grounds homosexuality violates religious teachings, they also permit exemptions from discrimination laws against other religions on grounds that heresy violates religious teachings. If Yeshiva University can refuse to recognize a gay student group because it violates its religious teachings, it can also refuse to recognize a Christian student group for the same reasons. And that means in turn that a private Christian university could refuse to recognize a Jewish group because it violates its religious teachings.
Absolutely so. It’s very straightforward. If religious universities can refuse to accept one kind of heresy, it seems obvious they could refuse to accept others. So if Yeshiva University wins this case, then it seems very straighforward that its victory could be applied by Christian universities against Jews. After all, Jews violate conservative Christians views of Jesus and represent heresy just as much as homosexual conduct violates Yeshiva University’s view of Jewish teeachings.
I didn’t think anybody is seriously questioning that that would be the logical outcome. It seems very straightforward.
Yeshiva University might not want to go that route for that reason. But that’s it’s decision. And it might be justified from its point of view. It might think that Jews are better off not going to conservative Christian universities in the first place. If it thinks Jews are better off in Orthdox Jewish institutions like itself, disincentives to go elsewhere might be a net plus. So it might not see the decision’s being applied to Jews as representing a problem.
By "limitless special privilege for religion," do you mean the right not to be stomped into submission by atheist brownshirts?
By all means, let a private atheist university deny a charter to a National Organization for Marriage chapter.
Let's see how longer the American mainstream is willing to accept a "heads we win, tails you lose" double standard benefitting religious claimants in both directions -- religious claimants (including outright bigots) can discriminate against anyone else, but no one can discriminate against religious claimants.
The relatively predictable, inevitable backlash is likely to be severe.
Looking at the trajectory of diminution in organized religion in America, how long before:
the Pledge of Allegiance loses the "god" that was grafted onto it during the 1950s (or thereabouts)?
our currency loses the references to religion?
a religious bigot is treated like any other bigot?
religious schools (and religious homeschoolers) are held to reasonable standards of instruction and student performance?
religious entities are no longer permitted to engage in widespread freeloading?
What's so important about the currency, which is rapidly losing its value?
Who is uncool enough to pledge allegiance to the flag any more? Only clinger like cops and soldiers are into that stuff, and eventually they'll grow out of it, too.
Will religious bigots be getting large book contracts for denouncing "atheistness"? That would be equal treatment, wouldn't it?
Are there any other schools, besides religious schools, which need to be held to "reasonable standards of instruction and student performance"?
Why should the religious be excluded from the benefits of freeloading, when everyone else is doing it?
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SCOTUS 2025:
The laws on rape exempt secular interests from laws banning fucking kids, so adults who say the Bible says they can can fuck kids too.
'Other children' are a secular group, and therefore since the state does not criminalize same-age sex for $whatever the states R+J law allows, it cannot criminalize adult-child sex under the free exercise clause either.
I wonder how SCOTUS would rule if the group I question were “Yeshiva University Students for Christ.”
Why not go straight to pushing the real buttons: "conservative Catholics, handmaidens, and Opus Dei"?